Completely Machinima Podcast 1 Transcript - February 4, 2021
Ricky (00:00:17):
Welcome to completely Machinima podcast. I'm Ricky Grove producer and host of this our first episode, our goal is to bring the Machinima community together by sharing news films, filmmakers, and in-depth discussions of Machinima past, present, and future. Now let me introduce my fellow hosts. I'm joined by Machinima veteran and composer, Phil Rice, aka Overman, along with Tracy Harwood, professor of digital culture at the Institute of creative technology in the UK and the author of numerous papers and articles on Machinima and Machinima director and writer, Damian Valentine, AKA Darth Angelus, Phil Tracy, and Damien had been my friends for many years and I'm excited to be working with them on this podcast. Hey guys. Hi, how you doing?
Virtual Jill (00:01:10):
And now it's time for our monthly Machinima news feature.
Ricky (00:01:14):
Now, Damian, you've got some interesting news and I wanted to congratulate you on being accepted to the Berlin liftoff film festival with one of your Machinima films. Congratulations, Damian.
Damien (00:01:25):
Oh, thank you, Ricky. That's very kind of you. Yeah. I want to just talk about film festivals and there's a website called filmfreeway.com. And if you go there, you can do a search. And if you look up, if you do a search for the word Machinima, you'll come up with several festivals that accepting a Machinima submissions. There's a few that aren't accepting at the moment, but they're to the tire and there's deadlines are coming up. So the first one is fantasize short film festival. The deadline for submission is the 15th of March. So if you've got a film that's nearly finished or is finished it's worth submitting that to them. And the other is the new media film festival and deadline for that is the next deadline for that is the 3rd of March. But I believe that accepting films until April, but if you can't meet those two deadlines, you should check out what the festivals except animation, because many of them will accept mission submissions under animation.
Damien (00:02:29):
And if you're using something like Iclone that will be accepted anyway, because it's not really video game mission where it's real time animation, but it is produced in animation software. So they will accept that as well. So yeah, definitely check out film, freeway.com and to do search for film Machinima and animation. And you can find festivals that you can limit the options. So if you've got to, if you want one sort of free submissions can check for that you can look for festivals that are local to you, which are the moment with COVID. It doesn't really matter because most of them being held online. But yeah, there's lots of options. You can narrow it down or widen the search for whatever it is, but definitely worth checking out. If you are interested in submitting your film to a film festival.
Ricky (00:03:19):
Given the fact that Machinima has come into the public consciousness, more people are aware of it. There's also been many academic studies that focus on it. Tracy can speak to that, but there's one festival in particular is devoted to Machinima and Machina-related art. And that's the Milan Machinima film festival. It tends to be really art Machinima. So it might be a little strange to folks who are just doing sort of mainstream kind of things with games, but there's a lot of great film. And it's a great opportunity to learn about other filmmakers what's happening in other countries. And it's really well executed. They have monthly programming, so you can learn a lot of stuff there. We'll put a link in our show notes, so you can check on all of these festivals. Phil, do you have some news for us?
Phil (00:04:11):
I do. I want to talk about something it's not brand new, but it's it's because it hasn't come to fruition yet. It's still in that new queue for everyone. And that is the Nvidia announcement, this, this past fall of a product software product, or a suite that they are putting together. They're calling it Omniverse Machinima, and they actually use the name Machinima in the title of it, which as we alluded to the learner is, is somewhat rare. And noteworthy. Now what the Omniverse package is ultimately is a the best analogy I can think of for it is if you're familiar with with Adobe Photoshop and there's the creative suite and its different applications that can, if you have the creative suite, they can work together. So you can design something vector in illustrator and then bring it into Photoshop.
Phil (00:05:06):
And then that can interface with Adobe premiere in certain ways. It it's that concept, but applied to production of animation and, and, and that kind of work. So the Machinima Omniverse component, the way I understand it is going to be one component of several components in that universe that they're creating of, of these different applications, the whole idea that being able to collaborate and share content and work remotely with a team easier, but from what the description sounds like, the Omniverse Machinima part of that platform will function in a somewhat standalone way. It doesn't mean that you have to be involved with those other advanced 3d applications. This one really is Machinima in that it is going to be tapping into assets and things from game worlds or game engines. Now there's a lot of questions, not yet answered about this which we're going to be keeping an eye on.
Phil (00:06:12):
And of course, and we'll let you know when, when we know more, but one of the questions that I have with it is okay, it's Nvidia branded. So are, is it only going to operate if you have a particular level of Nvidia graphics hardware that wouldn't be unreasonable necessarily, but certainly would be good to know. I also don't think that's a big barrier because I think that a lot of people that are working with real-time graphics or even just high end gaming Nvidia is, you know, one of the, if not the main choice that people tend to go with and in the other would just be okay, how does this, how does it exactly work? You know, what are the limitations? Is it an open platform where I can bring in 3d assets from somewhere else and easily bring in textures? Or is it more of a closed system where the gaming partners that they've, they've partnered up with?
Phil (00:07:03):
Those are a lot of things that nobody really knows yet. They have put out a call for where you can subscribe and be the first to know you know, new information about this. And there's been whispers of some kind of a beta release at some point in the future. But that has not happened as of today. So it's, it's something to keep an eye on and it's, it's, it's exciting for a number of reasons. There's a demo which we'll link to in our show notes that it shows some pretty spectacular visuals that reportedly were created with this platform.
Tracy (00:07:38):
Yes, I've got well, it's a bit of speculation on my part really Tomorrow land around the world. That's not to be confused with Disney's theme park experience of an imaginary future from the twenties and thirties, or indeed the 2015 film. Now this Tomorrowland was actually first created in Belgium in 2005, and there's been a hugely successful electronic dance music festival with wildly utopian futuristic sets, which some really have described as kind of a Woodstock like Haven while it was last held physically in 2019. And like so many other similar events in 2020 was canceled, but rather than crying about it or whatever, the organizers did an amazing job of creating a 16 square kilometer virtual world in just three months using ironically the unreal engine, this included over a hundred thousand avatars representing audience members for its 60 acts, 60 acts, can you believe it who were recorded in studios in four locations around the world.
Tracy (00:08:44):
It was filmed rather than live-streamed and it was available for a limited time last July. It's not really a game, but it's a rich game, like experience that converges virtual experiences with real time partying at home, of course, and naturally socially distance as we need to be in these current COVID times. But what's interesting about it is it was rendered in 10 times, the quality of the average video game. Now the experience of it wasn't as great as one might imagine with that kind of quality. But nonetheless it attracted an audience of around a million people. Many of them were actually paying customers. But if you compare it to what they did in real life, that was about 400,000 that they would have turn up at their real life experiences on top of which they have subsequently released a relive video on demand where you can go and experience each of the sets.
Tracy (00:09:46):
It was such a success that they, there are calls to keep the environment for future events. But it does appear, as I said, that the experience was not really fully 3d, rather 2d streamed inside a 3d interactive environment. So there's a way to go on developing it. I think of course whilst the pandemic has presented us with some unprecedented virtual experiences such as these music festivals conferences and what have you. These are not really new developments. Fortnight's first marshmallow concert, for example, attracted an audience of 10 million, which took place in February, 2019. So it's, you know, some, some time before we had COVID but its success nonetheless was only ever going to lead to more of these kinds of events. And I think really what's happened is the pandemic has just accelerated the adoption of these, these types of things.
Tracy (00:10:40):
So following Tomorrowland's event, last July, Tim Sweeney, the CEO of Epic was, has been quite eloquent about the metaverse and its possibilities as a massive participatory virtual space with a virtual currency and such, and you know what, that sounds a lot like what second life I've been doing since, Oh, when did that launch Tuesday, 2003. Was it 2003? Yeah. So I would say Tomorrowland was an altogether different quality of proposition. And you can still see the after movie Machinima type film, which is still on YouTube. And we'll put that on the show notes as well. But they also did a stunning new year's Eve party, which took account of different time zones for, for its various streamed activities. So you could say that, well, second life has done these kinds of things for years and, and we know that that is true, but what is evident here, I think is the investment in production values that have taken this kind of event driven game-like experience to really a whole new level.
Tracy (00:11:49):
And I think what is what is clearly framing up what it's framing up to be is yet another challenging year for, for major events. You know, the pandemic isn't going anywhere, vaccines are going to take a while to roll out. So I would expect to see a lot more of these event driven environments being developed even further and as a consequence, what I would expect to see, and I haven't really found any yet, I have to say is some really interesting machine on the shorts that come out of them, demonstrating storytelling in these kinds of transitory worlds. That brings me to my second news item, which is second life itself, which has changed ownership. Second life was bought out last year by an investment group, which has been led by Randy Waterfield and Brad [inaudible]. both of whom have joined the board of Linden research at the time.
Tracy (00:12:45):
The CEO of second life and the OPO argued that it would mean investment in the environment as well as its virtual currency. There was a lot of concern expressed among the community about corporate machine asset, stripping it as we've seen happen elsewhere, some more recently but the owner seem more interested in making profit. So now of course, there's quite a bit of speculation that the fees are going to rise as the game tries to maintain ground and grow in an environment where frankly there is now a better understanding of the potential for a broad range of these kinds of virtual experiences, such as Tamara land that we've just talked about. It's going to be another one of those game environments. That will be interesting to see how it evolves over the coming months. I think
Ricky (00:13:32):
The most interesting Machinima news story I've discovered recently is a brand new free, complete virtual production course being offered by Epic games for the unreal engine. It's called filmmaking with the unreal engine and it's a two and a half hour course with instructor Deepak Chetty. It is for windows only, just so you know, here's a couple of things you're going to learn. You'll apply pre-production workflows and methodologies in the Unreal Engine. You use geometry materials and lighting to parallel a lighting layout and visuals of a real-world set you'll block out scenes with the sequencer you'll use post-production volumes to apply cinematic color corrections and other image effects and deliver rendered films are interactive standalone application. Now that's directly from their course descriptions. What I love about this is that it is essentially a Machinima film course, they call it virtual production, but we'll talk about those definitions later in the general discussion. This is a great way if you're a beginner or even if you're a veteran to learn the essentials of pre-production, how to get your script together, how to transfer a script to a shot list, how to set up your shot list in the engine Epic provides all of the materials that you need, models,
Ricky (00:14:52):
Backgrounds animations, and everything. It's a free download is a pretty hefty download. It's about 12 gigabytes and it's windows only remember that, but I downloaded it. I started the course. I think it's fantastic.
Phil (00:15:05):
Yeah. Unreal engine all four of us here have been involved to some degree with Machinima for a long time. And the unreal engine is one of those that has really demonstrated great staying power. I mean, even back 10 plus years ago they were among the first to offer a the matinee editors, what they called it and probably still do where you can sequence events and it's all running in real time within their engine. And they've just continued to mature the product over the years. So it's it's, it's really exciting platform and actually Damien wasn't it? You that told me that unreal engine is in some way involved with production on the Mandalorian show.
Damien (00:15:49):
Yeah, that's right. It's so if you watch the Mandalorian, they have this studio sets up with at least led screens. And what they do is they put the actors in the middle of that room and then project the scenery the locations and all the effects on the walls around them. It's all done in real time. And a lot of the cases you can't tell that it's it's projected. Do you think they really are in the desert or in the snow or wherever the scene is taking place when they were testing it out? They had a call from one of the producers from Disney, I believe it was. So they had the system running in the background, they accepted the video chat and they started talking and the producer thought that they had spent blown their entire budget producing this elaborate set.
Damien (00:16:34):
And it turned out it, no, it was, it was just projected behind them. And they wanted, that was a good way for them to test that people would believe that this new way of filming was possible and it's all powered and real-time with the unreal engine. And if you check out the behind the scenes show for the Mandalorian, they have a whole episode dedicated to talking about how they make this work. And even though they don't see the word Machinima, it is exactly what they're talking about. It is this Machinima and a big budget TV show in Hollywood. So that's, that's a real high profile use for it.
Tracy (00:17:08):
Unreal goes back to the 1990s, doesn't it. And matinee was originally developed with the Machinima community quite quite some time ago. It's quite interesting that they've kept matinee or albeit it they've redeveloped it, I believe to be a slightly easier to use sequencer. I think they call it sequence now or sequence matinee now. And what's fantastic about what unreal are doing is the fact that they're making all their tool sets available for anybody to use. Which is, you know, I mean, if, if Machinima creators had had access to the tool sets that these guys are providing now, we've had some cracking Machinima made 20 odd years ago. I think it was, it was you know, what they're doing is, is incredible. It's really great to see him next up on completely Machinima films at the month with bill Ricky, Tracy and Damien, Ricky, Tracy, and Damien.
Ricky (00:18:08):
I really enjoy searching for interesting films to share with you guys. And this month I've chosen The Town That Dreaded Sundown trailer. David Vann used the audio track from a trailer of a seventies film with that title iandreshoots, the action inside of rockstars red, dead redemption two game. Now the actual trailer for the seventies film was pretty mild, but David keeps that documentary style and adds a level of violence that can only be found in video games. The ragdoll effect of the models is so stylized that they could never be thought of as actual deaths. It's Sam Peckinpah cartoons. And I love the black humor that results from this film. Now we've got an interview with David later in the show, so make sure you stay tuned. And he's got several other adaptations on his YouTube channel along with several very funny Lego films he created early in his career. I just love this film. What did you guys think?
Tracy (00:19:04):
Yeah, it was, it was really well made and you're right. The the level of, of Gore it really did. It contributed to it a humorous thing. I'm not sure it's something my parents would laugh at. I think they would probably be positively horrified, but anybody who's grown up on that diet of video games. It's I think we've we've got a tolerance for that, that it does, it, it quickly becomes a catalyst for humor. And yeah, it's just very well done, very well edited. It lines up isn't it Ricky that it's using the actual audio from the original trailer. Yeah. And it lines up so well, I mean, it's just, just very nice craft going on.
Tracy (00:19:48):
Yeah. I think this is a really bloodthirsty film for me really, to it's one of those, even I cringe at that it's got the first shot, just, Ooh, that made me jump. I'd put the scenes perfectly fit the narrative and the, and the soundscape. It does work. It really is. It's a good film. I really enjoyed it.
Damien (00:20:10):
Yeah. I really enjoyed it as well. I haven't seen the original film that was the inspiration for it, but it is, this made me want to sort of try and track down a copy and investigated because I thought this is so well done. I need to go and see the original. I think there's a preset even more. He did several other trailers too for that impossibly bad, but wonderful film, Mandy. And I think a couple others on there now, he, for, for, for the telling of the dreaded sundown, he used the actual trailer audio, but for Mandy, he included some stuff from the proper. So he sort of extended that idea of the trailer. You'll hear, you'll hear it in the interview. He goes into detail about how he put it together. Phil, what was your film choice? This this month
Phil (00:20:59):
I picked one made by a friend of mine, actually Evan Ryan the, the film is called Sugar and it's a music video for a song by System of the Down. And he made it using a tool developed by a friend of yours. Ricky: M dot strange called nightmare puppeteer, which is available for ridiculously low price on steam and nightmare puppeteer is this he developed it in unity 3d engine, but it's this, it's this live puppeteering application. It's not a game at all. It's, it's an application where you, you can set a scene and put characters in there and then control them in real time. And it can be used quite easily with, you know, to, to capture footage, using a tool like fraps or OBS, or it can be used for Twitch live streaming and w what's intriguing about it.
Phil (00:21:58):
First of all, is the complexity of the tool, but then also the very odd surrealistic approach to the visuals with the characters and the props and all that guiding and Evan makes just fantastic use of this and his choice of song to animate with it was perfect. Cause there's this, you know, a system of a down if you've ever listened to it, it's, it's, it's very intense kind of hard driving punk infused rock music. And Evan just does a brilliant job at, at using these, these visuals to convey some of the ideas that are, that are coming through in the lyric. And with edits very nicely where there's some kind of recurring themes that pop up throughout the, the course of the film. It's, it's just wonderfully exotic looking and very well edited. The video quality is fantastic. I don't remember if I've asked him what, what method he used to capture footage, but it's going to be one of those two frappes or open OBS software or something like that, but it's just wonderfully done. Just very vivid colors, striking imagery just full of energy that, that matches the energy of the song. So that's, that's what I would recommend for this week.
Tracy (00:23:25):
Yeah. I really enjoyed that too. I was really surprised at those visuals and that pixelation and the way that it works in different ways on the on the screen, it looks, it looks really good. I'm really, definitely recommend that one as well. It's very good film. Yeah. I was going to say that's a film that I really enjoyed as well. It's very impressive. And
Ricky (00:23:46):
I just really enjoyed it. I was on the beta team for this project. So I saw it. I saw him work from the very beginning to the end and he does all of his own coding for the game. I love that. Not strange. His real world name is Mike. We've been friends for many, many years, and I just love how you would mention something in in the beta testers forum and the next day he would have it coded immediately into the thing. His idea was to take his world his way of looking at things which is absurd and punk and fun and energetic and strange and obscene, and put it inside of a game so that you can use that world to make stuff, make your own Machinima films, make her on videos, whatever you want. It's $4.99 on steam. It's worth it. The community is big. He's uploading new stuff every week. I think they have three new scenes setups. It is ideal for a mission I'm a filmmaker wants to way make way out there sorts of videos. So I'm, I'm really glad you chose this. This is just terrific.
Tracy (00:25:01):
My film is called Beast. It's a bit of a throwback. It was made in 2006 by binary picture show, otherwise known as Leo Lucian Bay. It's actually made in MotionBuilder using crazy talk and Sims2 and it's a short which mixes some great voice acting with a powerful bit of storytelling, mixing two very different visual styles. It's got a great soundscape. It's very moody, it's quite violent contained some quite strong language and themes. But it's not an action film. It's totally reliant on creating a connection between the characters and the audience. It's a little bit reminiscent for me to films like chaos stay thumb, or if you want to go back to the 1980s, Bronson's death wish type type sort of films. The plot is of a kidnapped man who wakes up bound in this kind of mysterious room, knowing nothing of his captor. And it, you know, the story sort of unfolds from there. And I picked the film because as well as being a great example of different ways in which stories can be told it's what led its creator, Leo to a whole new life at mass effect as a cinematic designer for mass effect two and three. So there you go. That's the film that I commend to you. This,
Phil (00:26:30):
I remember when Leo first released this film, we, we Ricky and I were doing a project back then called mission a Plex, and we premiered it for that. And I told Leo who I've known for quite a while that I thought it was probably the single most disturbing piece of FilmAid, you know, piece of mission about that I've ever seen. And I didn't mean that in, in terms of that it offended me or anything like that. More of just, it was so raw, emotionally so effective at just creating this real sense of what for me was, was almost a nausea. Just, just, it's just wonderful, what he was able to pull off there. And you're right with, with a level of restraint that is in many ways Ricky's Ricky's film. We were talking about the the, the graphic violence and that there's certain elements of that that's even as we laugh kind of disturbing, but this film for me was much more unsettling.
Phil (00:27:34):
Even though it doesn't have one bit of Gore in it at all. And there's one key moment in the movie not to spoil anything, if you haven't seen this, it's it's worth experiencing without any spoilers, but there's one point in the movie where Leo takes the camera and basically puts it from the point of view of the captive. And it is just stunning. You're, you're hearing the, the labored breathing and the, the anxiety, it puts you inside that character is just so many things that are wonderful about it, but yeah, it's, it's one of my all time favorites of anything made in any engine ever.
Ricky (00:28:16):
Yeah, I was very, very impressed when this film came out and I think it sort of got lost in the mix because I think it was right after machinima.com was acquired. And there was a big sort of focus on the new channel at YouTube. And when we saw it for a minute machiniplex, I knew immediately it was something very special. I think we had an interview with him. You watch a lot of Machinima films, especially in the older days, and they're all, you know, you can find some good ones, but then there's a few that just stand head and shoulders because of their theatricality, their style, their, the way they pull you in. And I think what really impressed me about this film is he was able to take this non-realistic representation because these characters are pixelated. Not something you'd associate with realism and, you know, gritty realism, but what what's essentially upsetting is the cruelty of one human being to another. And the moral problem that he sets the viewer in the middle of which is, is this person justified in doing what they're doing or are they right? And he makes it so hard for you. And it's just a beautiful piece of writing, acting filmmaking. And it's an argument for non-realistic representation
Ricky (00:29:42):
Of realistic themes, which I think Machinima can do really well.
Damien (00:29:45):
Well, I'm going to have to echo something that feels sad, which is, I remember watching this film when it was released and like Phil was, I was hit by just how gritty and dark this it was. And it's also not something I would ever expected or associated with the Sims. Because normally those games are sort of very bright and cartoony. You don't expect a story like this to be told in that sort of environment. And the way that it was told was so brilliantly done. It's I was gonna say it's a hard film to watch, but in a good way, because it is, it really gets at you, but in the best possible way. So
Ricky (00:30:37):
Damian, what's your film choice for this month?
Damien (00:30:39):
So my film choice this month is the World of cyber punk WoW Machinima, it takes an early trailer from the cyberpunk 2077 video game. And it recreates it shot by shot in world of Warcraft. Now, I don't know how Warcraft Machinima works. So what, however, this was done is very impressive because it's, well, what, well, the Warcraft is obviously a very fantasy oriented game. So how are they managed to take that world and those characters and turn them into this futuristic cyber punk dystopian nightmare that the so punk game is set in and how they did that. I have no idea, but it's really impressively done. The animation matches the original trailer and they playing it along to the original trailer soundtrack. And it, it's not what you expect from walkout, but it is brilliant. This is just so well done. And the creates a Duran, has he created many other videos including could take on the mad max fury road trailer, which again, he gave very similar treatment to, but I chose, I went with a welder cyber punk because I've been enjoying the original game and seeing something like this done in Warcraft is just very impressive.
Phil (00:32:06):
Yeah, it was beautifully done. And I found the lighting in particular, very impressive. This, this, you know, the cyber punk world has, this really makes use of, of kind of glowing lights, if you will. And, and somehow, yeah, he got that to happen. I don't remember seeing that in the native world of, of world of Warcraft before. So yeah, it was just, just wonderfully done very sharp, rich looking image. It's pretty impressive for, I mean, how old is world of Warcraft now? I know it's evolved over the years, but it's not new game by any
Phil (00:32:40):
So it's, it's quite impressive. I think it's about 15 years old now, maybe older. I can't remember.
Tracy (00:32:48):
I think this is a brilliant film. This one of the best machinimas I've seen for years in the way that it's made, you know, I had to play the trailer for the game, as well as the the Machinima as well to see what, see what he'd done with the characters. And it's, it's virtually you know, a mirror of it just using the wild characters in there. I mean, wow, is, is the right word for it. It's a really good machine and where, if you, if you haven't seen it, but I'd be amazed if you haven't seen it because it's going, it's going viral as we speak.
Tracy (00:33:23):
So you watched it, you watched the original and, and the the world of Warcraft versions kind of side by side. I couldn't resist the great idea. I have not, it didn't occur to me to do that yet. I was impressed with it having spleen, the, the cyber cyberpunk trailer probably a month ago. And it it's, but yeah, that would be really interesting. I have a feeling Damien did the same thing, seeing that it was shot by shot. It's a great idea. Yeah. I can't add much more to that. You guys have really hit the nail on the head and describing, and it's just a beautiful film, a professional level work. What I can add though, is that it's interesting to see that there are two films that use the soundtrack media from from another medium and apply it to Machinima. I think that's a very fruitful sign for future projects like that. And it's really smart because one of the problems, especially if you're a single film maker, is how do you process and get all of that other audio and sound and acting and all of that together by, by taking a trailer, you were cutting your production in half. So you're able to put together something more quickly. I was very impressed with this piece. It's, it's probably the best of the films that we've been talking about here. And I urge everyone to see it.
Tracy (00:34:43):
One thing that occurs to me though, is what, what is, where do we stand with copyright on this sort of thing? Now?
Ricky (00:34:49):
That's a very interesting idea. Yeah, technically, yeah, technically it's, it's a copyright violation to use that audio, but for me, it makes me wonder, I mean, what, what company in their right mind would object to that additional exposure? It seems absurd to me that they would, I, I guess they, they reserve the right to do so, but it would be nuts for example, for the makers of cyberpunk to, to, you know, object or do a take down on that. That's just, yeah. Was crazy.
Tracy (00:35:23):
Like I said, gone viral. It's they're never going to take that down. Surely
Ricky (00:35:28):
I would think so. As far as I know, the developers of cyberpunk 20, 77 are very eager to encourage fans to be creative. So I think if they see, they'll be Excited to see what a fan of that game has done to celebrate that.
Virtual Jill (00:35:54):
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Dreaded Town Trailer VO (00:38:27):
This man's identity is unknown. It was believed to be between 30 and 40 years old. He wore a white hood and was known Only as the Phantom killer.
Ricky (00:38:36):
What you were listening to is the trailer for the town that dreaded sundown a 1976 cult film. My next guest took this audio and used it as the basis for a Machinima created in the popular game and red dead redemption two. His name is David Vann. I liked the Machinima so much. I called him at his home in Virginia, and we had the following conversation. I first heard of your film at bloodydisgusting.com. The, your trailer, Machinima of the town that dreaded sundown, and I'm an old fart. So I, I actually remember going to see that movie in the cinema and I thought, well, Jesus Christ, I've got to see this. And of course it took me to your excellent YouTube channel Geigerbrick is your AKA there. And I watched the film and I just thought it was, I thought it was excellent.
David Vann (00:39:36):
Thanks, man. Yeah, Those old movie trailers, they had the voiceovers in them.
Ricky (00:39:41):
Yeah. And that led me to your other ones. You did a Mandy and The thing and several others. And so I started watching those and I thought these are, these are just outstanding. What got you interested in and using trailers and Machinima?
David Vann (00:39:58):
Well, I started doing Lego movies more than 10 years ago. Stop frame animation because I wanted to make movies, but trying to do stuff live action. You're always dealing with having to get a bunch of people there at the same time. And you know, it's a, it's a hard thing to do. So I figured Legos. I could build little sets and put my camera up to the computer and see what it was capturing on the screen in real time. And, you know, you move a light around, you can see what the shadow is doing. You can see what the color is doing. You can learn how to compose shots. And then when you go to edit the stuff, you're learning that as well. I felt like I was getting more out of that. Then I got out of film school, but no, I got it.
David Vann (00:40:40):
The reason I started doing trailers is because that, to me growing up, I mean, to be real, to watch movie trailers in the movie theaters cause we didn't have, you know, internet. I mean I'm 49 years old, man. I'm new. But so I don't know nowadays go to a movie it's like, I, I could care less about the trailers cause I've already seen them 50 times on YouTube. By the time we go to the movie. But also trailers are short two to three minutes, something like that. So, you know, if you've done Machinima or anything, any kind of filmmaking stuff, you know how tedious it can be to do something that's like three minutes long. So it takes a lot of time and I knew that doing this stuff like I'm doing and working 40 hours a week job and everything, you know, you just have a certain amount of time.
David Vann (00:41:31):
Excuse me. Most of my trailers I recut the entire audio in them. I add in lines from the movie that weren't like, especially Mandy God, the original trailers, three minutes, mine, six minutes. I added in a lot of dialogue from bill Duke's character in that movie, he plays more or less than narrator in my, but yeah, I like to add stuff in and, and build them up a little bit. Especially if you look at the original trailer for the 1982 movie, the things most of the audio in mind on the original trailer is just zooming in on a shot that says this thing, that's it, here's the audio and shot, whatever I wanted, put it in there. I just tried to capture the atmosphere or the look of that specific movie or whatever. But yeah, like you remember a long time ago, people used to build like boats inside of a bottle when they got home from war, that's basically what it is nobody's ever going to give me money to direct an actual film, but it's amazing things you're able to do inside of a 3d world and then not have to depend on, well, there's not of money or people or anything, you know, just it's hobby though, you know,
Ricky (00:42:45):
I want to Compliment you though. I mean, even as a hobby, you, your shots are well framed. Well, you've got a great visual sense of how to move the camera. There's always sort of poetic look to the shots, even though it's a hobby, you really have a sense of style and there's a certain amount of professionalism to your work that I, I really love.
David Vann (00:43:10):
Well, I really appreciate that. And I'm sure my mom would love to hear that too. Cause she was an art teacher for 30 years. So yeah.
Ricky (00:43:18):
Tell me a little bit, a bit about your production methods for a red dead redemption in particular. Cause I love that town, that dreaded sundown, what are some of the tools in RD that you use to make Michigan?
David Vann (00:43:34):
Well you described it earlier. You said, you know, you go into first person mode cause they don't like with grant that thought it was, somebody came out with a software called ink and it's made clean. It allows you to go in there, you've got access to literally thousands of three-dimensional props that were within the game that you can place, however many want build entire stages, things like that. You can't do any of that in red dead yet. So I had to go back and go the old method of going into first person turn the hud off. And I had two of my friends that had been working on these videos with me online. One I'm from California and the other one's from Finland. But yeah, we just get on there and you know, they came up with the costume designs for that, like the sack head guy and everything that was Maya people still ask about that costume tutorial for that. I think that's pretty cool because he always does really great jobs on costume designs and everything. But yeah, with the red bed, they don't have any kind of modern software yet. And I don't know anything about what you said earlier about going into the game engine. Oh my God, that sounds pretty wild, but I don't know anything about that. I know they call open for
Ricky (00:44:48):
And when you captured the video, what did you use to capture it in the game?
David Vann (00:44:54):
Well, if I'm shooting on red dead, I'm actually, So I'm actually on the PS4 and you know, like I said, the first person and then you can capture the video and then you can turn it down. It'll capture like the last, you know, you can set it to capture the last five minutes, 10 minutes, whatever video. And then you just crop off the parts you don't need. And from that, it renders it out as an H dot two, six, four codec. Right? And so your PS4 has, you know, USB slot from there. So I put in a little flash drive and once I've turned the shots down, I drop them onto my actual computer and then dump them into Adobe premier where you can do all your final editing and audio and whatnot. So, but with with, with the grant theft auto video.
David Vann (00:45:41):
So with all that software they have for Mandy now though, especially the rockstar editor on me, God, you just go in there and you have your people act a scene and it's as if it's being shot from a billion camera angles all at once, you can just go into this thing and open up what it recorded. And then if I wanted to have, you know, a tight shot of you talking back to me, you know, you can just do that, right? Your characters are already replay their actions the same every time. And you can just change your camera angles and animate your camera angles. I mean, it'd be a great tool, no, for you know, budding filmmakers in school. I mean, because when I was in college, we never really got, it was more theory than anything else, you know, what am I melt down?
Ricky (00:46:26):
Favorite of your films? Was that absolutely bizarre. A mashup of star Wars and the Hills have eyes a brick fell on the Lego one. Yeah.
David Vann (00:46:38):
Yeah. It's funny, man. I mean the way that they portray the Tuscan Reyers, they were like maniacs in a desert. And when I saw the Hills have eyes, I was like, that'd be kind of funny. Well, I started, I started making videos with grand theft auto about five, six years ago now, but I heard the term machine enough, a friend of mine on the internet that makes these things, he called it that, and then I Googled it one time. So it just said people making, making movies, using like video game software and stuff like that. So
Ricky (00:47:13):
Are you doing any Machinima work at all recently or do you have plans to
David Vann (00:47:19):
The most recent? The most recent one was Mandy and that Lou put the last six months to shoot. So past couple of weeks you with the COVID thing, I lost my job too. I'm actually trying to find work in here locally, but that dilemma. But yeah. So since working on Mandy recently and spending so much time working on that, I've just past couple weeks, I've been catching up on, I Googled like, you know, the best films of 2018, 19 and 20. So I started just watching, watching a whole lot of movies that I had that had fallen under the radar for me. So not sure what I want to work on next yet. Yeah. I don't know what anybody else is using to make Michelle and Maria now outside of the GTA. Cause I can't find anything. I just downloaded cyberpunk 20, 77 thinking I could do like blade runner in there, something like that. But the, the, on the characters themselves, it's so horrendous. I would never, I mean, I have yet to see anything that tops the realism of grand theft auto five, nothing, unless you're doing your own 3d 3d studio max or something like that, you know, and having to build it from ground up. There's nothing that is more realistic than that.
Ricky (00:48:36):
Yeah. I agree. I've seen some GTA films that are just amazing. Just amazing. Yeah.
David Vann (00:48:44):
There's a guy you might want to look up named Douggie who he's been featured by rockstar a bunch of times. He's got some really good a GTA movies. All right. Cool man. Thank you. It's been, it's been cool.
Ricky (00:49:00):
Yeah. I really enjoyed talking to you and I appreciate you giving me your time to talk about your work.
David Vann (00:49:06):
Okay. I got another advantage. I live alone. I got six cats in the yard man, and I'm one of those people. So it's all good. Okay buddy, I'm going to take it easy,
Virtual Jill (00:49:28):
Completely Machinima presents our monthly discussion of Machinima themes and ideas. Take it away. Ricky,
Ricky (00:49:36):
Ok, we're going to discuss two topics today. I'll be the interlocutor for them and we'll have each of us to discuss share our ideas. The first discussion topic will be trying to come up with a difference between real-time animation, virtual production and Machinima. In my opinion real-time animation is the large umbrella category for both virtual production and Machinima. Real-Time animation is a technology that developed a lot from Nvidia, but mother, many other companies as well in a way to slow down and increase the production speed of the renders in 3d applications. So they develop real-time technology. So for example, you could move a light and you could see how it would reflect Immediately in as opposed to having to wait for the render to occur. This technology came to the foreign games in particular, which was why Machinima developed. So real time technology is a larger umbrella, but I think virtual production is used professionally and Machinima has more for the amateur world. What do you guys say?
Tracy (00:50:49):
Yeah, that's my understanding too. Really. I think I'm real for real real-time filmmaking seems to be a term that's used by pros to describe Machinima which is more Indian grassroots. Mission has always been about realtime filmmaking from my perspective using game engine to generate content real time seems to be used to describe a slightly different kind of workflow, especially if you think of you know, we talked a little bit about Mandalorian earlier. If you think about those large led sets that bigger studios are now using, I mean that is Machinima, but it's on a whole different scale. It's not, that's not indie, that's not really grassroots. That's, that's kind of beyond our reach at the moment. So, you know, as far as I understand it a lot of the the pros are using real-time as virtual production. And there's a very interesting interview if you, if you were if you're interested with Robert Zemeckis on his point of view of it where he's basically arguing that it's traditional filmmaking just using virtual tools. Well, that's, that's not really, as I see it. So I guess really it depends on what the filmmaker's production values are and how they view virtual tools and assets in their workflow.
Phil (00:52:06):
And for me, I've always, I've always associated the machine I'm a term with with it's video game roots very strongly. And that's probably because I'm, I'm very old school in my exposure to and experience with that. I mean, for me, Machinima within video games, really the roots of that go back to it, software and games like doom, where they, the player had the ability to record a sequence of events and then play it back within the game. And actually I found something out just this week, I've been doing this for 20 something years and just learned this week that actually the demo file that was recorded in the old-fashioned, the old doom games from the nineties. The only thing that's in that recording, I always assumed that it was, it was recording the positions of, of creatures and, and rockets flying through the air and where the player is and all that it turns out in doom that recording was simply the input, key strokes and mouse movements of the player.
Phil (00:53:11):
That's the only thing that's recorded, but the game engine uses the players movements and keystrokes and mouse movements to trigger its randomization of how monsters behave and how things happen. And so when the playback is happening is actually just playing back a sequence of keystrokes and mouse movements of the player and the game responds to the same way every time. Now, once games like quake and quake, two came along in the AI, became a lot more advanced. Then it was actually recording everything going on in the game and still playing it back within the entry. And then once video became accessible by that, I mean that there was bandwidth sufficient out there for people to record video of their game and distributed that way. There was a guy, his name is slipping my mind right now, but first did that with was he called it quad God.
Phil (00:54:09):
And it was in one of the quake games, but he recorded the video output instead of recording the demo to be played back within the game. I actually fought against him like really hard about desktop Machinima, which was just so stupid in retrospect, you know, and he was right. And he saw that that greatly expanded the audience, you know, and I'm still thinking like a guy in 1996 go, you can give someone a video takes like, you know, days. Well, he had some vision that I didn't insure now five years later, there's YouTube and video now of course is just everywhere. So, but for me, that's, that's what I tend to think of with it. But I, I think that once tools like icon movies, storm, those tools like that, that even to some degree, the game, the movies made by Lionhead the influence of that game and the, the opening up to new people that came from the result of that game cannot be understated, huge, huge impact.
Phil (00:55:21):
But those games where the program is designed to craft specific animations and not rely on the AI or, or modification of, of the stuff that's pre-built for the game. That that to me is where I started thinking, well, maybe we need a different term. And our friend Tom Jantol, and I, he ended up coming up with a term for that called animation, which basically, and Tom you'll correct me on this, if I'm wrong, but basically animation to Tom means shut up and stop talking about how you make this stuff and just make it, which is, which is which, you know, ultimately the distinction between the two doesn't really matter. It's, you know, but for me historically, that's how I've come to understand Machinima is it's rooted in that video game thing even today. No matter how you're recording it whereas realtime filmmaking is where the animation is.
Phil (00:56:23):
Maybe it's not necessarily rendered out to video form in real time. You're developing it in real time, but when you render out a film from icon or movie storm, it's doing it out of frame at a time to get the maximum quality. You can't really do that with video game, you know, video game, you got to capture it as it happens. If you need to modify the game beforehand to, to alter the way things behave, then so be it, but you have to capture it as it happens. And with these tools and stuff like MotionBuilder that Leo used on his film, it's, it's about a crafting of a sequence of events, similar to unreal sequencer matinee tool. So for me, that's where it is, but it's not a line that I feel like fighting over anymore. And I thank Tom for that primarily.
Damien (00:57:11):
I would have to say something kind of similar to what's already been said, so realtime animation to me is it's not necessarily misdemeanor, but it can be more professional uses, like the way it is in in the Mandalorian. In the, behind the scenes videos, they're talking about the need for real time. the screens behind the actors needs to be updated in real time. And so they never say the word Machinima. Whereas Machinima to me is, feels more rooted in sort of the video game origins. But again like Phil said, when he finished, it's not really a line I think about, or really feel needs to be argued about that much. It's just this kind of things overlap, but not necessarily completely because they were very similar to each other.
Ricky (00:58:09):
Yeah. Briefly. I think one of the key differences in it is not necessarily the technology definition, but the community definition Machinima has oftentimes gathered around a group, a specific game or a mod community for that specific game. Whereas I think virtual film production and real-time animation are more professional levels for people that are of Epic games or a 3d studio max, or places like that or blender even. So it oftentimes has to do with community as well. And it's, for me, it's very positive to see these communities meshing together in 2020.
Phil (00:58:51):
Yeah. Finding common ground and focusing on that. That's important.
Ricky (00:58:56):
So that actually segues nicely into my second question, which is impossibly broad, but I had to ask it anyway, what is the status of Machinima in 2021?
Tracy (00:59:10):
Well, I think that it is something that has grown significantly in popularity. Although probably most folks don't even know what it was called. Lots of people now seem
Tracy (00:59:22):
To have come to it by accident. I do think Machinima Inc. Queered the pitch a bit for a good number of years. I think it basically destroyed the community where much of the creative practices were originally shared. But I think what's interesting now is that you are seeing community to coalesce again around different themes, not just games, but different themes as well, like the star Wars theme say. And there's a well, you know, if you take environments like unreal, for example, there's a huge community of followers they're made up of people mostly interested in using the tool set for storytelling, not necessarily experts in unreal, but just want to be able to use something for storytelling and that's Machinima. That was what, where Machinima came from really that's what the community did for Machinima without the community.
Tracy (01:00:18):
There would never have been Machinima as we know it today. I think. So for me, we seem to be on the second curve of, of the, you know, if you, if you take that hype cycle, we're on that much bigger upward curve whether it will ever regain its popularity in name, however, it's probably going to be dependent on what happens in, in my view with NVIDIA's omnivorous Machinima because I think they're taking off the name will help to connect or reconnect that older community with the contemporary newer community. If you like through that term,
Damien (01:00:58):
It's, for me, it's interesting to see how it's being used in the professional way. Especially with COVID. I know we've talked about the Mandalorian quite a lot during the show so far, and I'm going to continue that now. Because the environment they use to film is it's a room without a D screens, and they can produce any environment on those screens that they can imagine. And it takes just to come of hours to switch it around. And that's mostly just because they need to change the physical props that are in there as well. And with situations like COVID making, filming very difficult, having a studio like that, where you can just have a limited number of people inside and interacting as safely as possible. That's going to be very good for the film industry. And I've seen the Mandalorian set that up as a and w very well received because of this tech.
Damien (01:01:56):
Then this technology has big parts of it and other film studios and TV studios are looking at that technology and building their own. I know that star Trek discovery is building their own studio in Toronto. I believe so that when they resume production, they can use a similar technology to have their actors again, safely. There is limited people because you can have different rooms for the people controlling environments, so that they're kept separate. And if everything is as COVID safe as possible, and be interesting to see what other film studios and TV studios are going to do when they having to work around the restrictions that are in place to protect the cast members and the crew members and anyone else that would be on set. So that's going to be a big thing this year, I think. And as Tracy's also said that there's lots of communities out there who are making videos with whatever that video game of choices. And even if they don't know what the word missioner is, I still think there's a lot of content being created on YouTube, especially again, this year, as a lot of people are at home because of COVID restrictions. It's a good way to create things and you can upload them onto YouTube or Vimeo or whatever video platform you want to use. And then you can share them with other people who are also at home and looking for entertainment.
Phil (01:03:25):
You know, there was an old Machinima film. I believe the title of it is Anna and Ben Grussi is going to thrash me for not remembering for sure, but it was made by a group called Fountainhead entertainment. And they actually developed a animation real-time animation tool called [inaudible] way long time ago. I'm really showing my age here, but the film was interesting, this short film, because the focus of it was this flower, that that was the main character of the film. And this flower is struggling for survival in this forest and, you know, these different things happening to it and whatnot. And at the end or near the end of this little story, the flower gets, I think, stepped on by a deer or something. I can't remember exactly, but it gets smashed. And so there's this sense of, you know, it's died, but then all these spores or pollen or something come off of the forest or off of the flower and get carried away by the wind throughout the rest of the forest.
Phil (01:04:29):
And then they settled down and each grown are there flowers. And even back then, I always felt like that that short film was a metaphor, not intentional, but it was a metaphor for what happened with machinima.com. And I don't mean the mutated beast that it became once it was taken over. I'm talking about the original idea as founded by Hugh Hancock and Gordon MacDonald of this centralized community, where it doesn't matter what you make your mission in the, with you come together, and this is a place to share it and grow and collaborate. And that, that really, when it was taken over by its new owners who had their own intentions it, it was, but the end result was all these other, it wasn't the death of Machinima. It felt that way to those of us involved in that central community, it felt like, Oh my gosh, it's over, you know, it's done, but all these little communities then sprouted up as a result of that.
Phil (01:05:36):
And I think that that's still the state that it's in right now, that, that there are all these communities out there. But like Ricky said, most of them centered around a particular game or a particular platform. There's a whole group of people who are obsessed with creating stuff in second life, and they're very tight and they, they know each other and know each other's work and collaborate and share, and then there's gotta be a Warcraft community out there. Cause we've seen the result of that in, in this week, there's still a fledgling community for movie storm, which is, you know, a Stone's throw from abandoned where at this point, and yet there's still a group that when the movie storm forum started having some functionality issues, not, not being stable, they went and on their own formed a brand new discord server, just so they could continue to keep in touch and share and collaborate.
Phil (01:06:29):
There are stories like that that are countless. I think these other, these little communities, not some of them not so little that spring up and, and then there's also individuals that even back when machinima.com was at, it's what I call its peak. There was filmmakers, like, do you remember Alex Chan who made the wrench democracy? He was just some kid in France who just used his computer to make this movie to tell a tale of what's going on politically in his area. He didn't have any connection with a larger community at all. He was, it was completely news to him that we even existed, but he was there and saw the potential, these tools and created it. And there are countless individuals like that out there. So I don't, I don't know if, if the idea of unifying all that together is feasible or even necessarily smart.
Phil (01:07:29):
But I do think that there's a segment of those communities that would benefit from the overlap and that really any endeavors, hopefully this show serves as one as, as an excuse to widen your net in terms of, of collaboration and who you can learn from and who you can teach. The, those are there's wonderful potential there. It's just, there's not one place you can point to one Reddit thread or one discord server or one Facebook group that there isn't any one that accompanies encompasses all of them, but I, I I've come to feel like, well, maybe that's okay. But, but if there's things we can do to encourage interaction between those communities, well, that would just, that would be a beautiful thing. It just w it won't look anything like what Hugh and Gordon set up 20 years ago, but I think it still could be very beautiful. Yeah. I think
Ricky (01:08:30):
You you've said it better than anybody here so far that it's just so well, well, articulated my feelings. Exactly. You know, when Phil invited me to be a part of this podcast, I was, I think in a way, you know, I've had reflected on this a lot. I think I was hurt by the rise of the machinima.com Inc. Mutant. And I just wrote it all off. In fact recently when I was trying to go through several different, external hard drives to get Machinima related material, apparently I had some fit of pique and I, I just erased tons and tons of stuff. I just deleted it all. Now I regret that because in my first response to Phil's invitation, I said Machinima was dead. And for me it was, I was, yeah, I was, I was pretty arrogant in that assumption, but, you know, it came from a place of kind of hurts.
Ricky (01:09:31):
And so I started thinking about it and I started researching and looking around and discovering films and, you know, it's not dead. I was wrong. I've discovered that the film communities are alive and thriving. The Sims community surprising is very large. I recently did a profile for a render audacity magazine on an artist who does street photography in second life. That's absolutely incredible. He travels all over this virtual world, just like a street photographer. He stops, he finds these interesting shots. He takes a screen capture, a whole bunch of shots comes up with one that he likes does post-process processing and creates these beautiful painterly, like portraits of this virtual world. So that, and I see the unreal and unity of started the energy of a real-time film production in a games like a cyber punk, 2077. There's a group of photographers who go in and take photographs inside of that game, because it's got a photo mode that it's set up. So the communities are there. The, the technology has increased. The awareness of what Machinima can do is all there. They're just in scattered communities right now. And I'm hoping that our podcasts will bring some of that together and start a dialogue on how to make these films, what they are, what news are. So I'm really excited. And I think this, I think Tracy's right. I think we're on another rising curve. That's going to go to an even better place for Machinima and The future.
Phil (01:11:17):
Well, Ricky, we should probably tell people about how to how they can interact with, and talk back to our show here. So there's a number of ways that you can, and, you know, we want to hear from you, first of all this, this show is going to get pretty stale. If it's just us for, you know, relying on ourselves to to know what's interesting and what to talk about, we would love to hear from, from you. And there's a number of ways you can contact the show. First of all, our website is completely machinima.com and right there on that homepage about halfway down the scroll, you'll see a number of methods that you can use to interact with us. Obviously email is there. There is a way to we do have a discord server that you can supply ideas in there.
Phil (01:12:03):
There's some folks who've already done that. We do have a way to send us a voice recording. It's almost like a voicemail over the internet using a service called reverb.chat. Very cool. And, and, you know, if, if your question is one that we cover, we might even play your feedback or your question right on the air and then respond to it. And we're, we're going to be monitoring all the communication channels that make sense. For us, we've got a Facebook page. So reach out to us and let us know what you think of, of the show that we've done or what you'd like to hear us talk about in the future. Have you got an excellent film suggestion to make man, we would love to see those. We know there's a lot out there, way more than we'll find on our own. So let us know what's going on out there, pimp your own material. If you want to, you know, let us know what's, what's being done. We'd love to hear that.
Ricky (01:13:03):
And that's our show for you for this February 4th, 2021, and now for something completely mission and we'll we'll return with another fun filled show on March 4th, 2021. Don't forget to let us know what you want us to talk about. We will listen to your comments and ideas, however absurd they might be, and be sure to check out our show notes with links to everything we've mentioned in this podcast. Hey, thanks guys. I really enjoyed talking with you today.
Music Credits (01:13:33):
Podcast music credits include intro theme music by Phil rice composed from samples created by Taiga sound productions. Alexi Godobetc, zero three by Pega sound productions, fill music.io/song/six, eight Oh one dash digital logo dash three, license fill music.io/standard license, horse field work stuff, hip hop, 80 beats per minute. Audio Mirage surprise it's Monday wound by Phillip rice dead fro five H on minus.com reggae chill on minus.com and note that the neural voiceover speech generator@filmmusic.io was used to generate artificial speech in this episode.