Tyson Popplestone (00:00.286)
If you find yourself going down a random rabbit hole and you're like, crap, is this what he wants to talk about? Dude, just run with it. feel as though, yeah, some of the best podcasts I reckon just seem to follow random rabbit holes. yeah, feel free to embrace it when you're there. But yeah, man, as I just said to you, I'm glad we got the chance to sit down and have a chat. And it's always good to talk to a bloke like you with a bit of a foundation that we sort of just established around practical running tips for new runners. Cause as I just said.
Like such a large majority of people who listen to this show wouldn't call themselves elite. They'd call themselves like plotters who are trying to figure out how to improve. And man, I don't know how you feel. You've obviously like me being in the sport for such a long time, but be overwhelming, I reckon, to jump on Google as a relatively new runner and go, all right, where do I start?
Ben Rosario (00:51.81)
particularly nowadays. There's a lot of so-called experts out there. So it's a little bit challenging to wade your way through the so-called coaches and find your way to the people who really have some great advice. And it's that way in all industries these days with the internet, everybody's an expert at everything. But there is some great advice out there. You just kind of have to know where to go.
Tyson Popplestone (00:53.662)
for sure, for sure.
Tyson Popplestone (01:16.168)
For sure, man, that's actually a good place to start. Like for a relatively new person who would have no idea who to trust, like how do you even begin that journey in your opinion?
Ben Rosario (01:25.696)
Yeah, I mean, to me, I'm biased because I'm a reader. I'm a book guy. But I think sitting down and buying and then reading one book from one author who's well-respected, known, I think that's a good place to start because it can be overwhelming to look at this big book and read it. But in a way though, it's
it's a little easier to follow than watching YouTube videos from 50 different people over the course of a month, each of whom has their own philosophy, right? And some of whom may not actually be all that knowledgeable. It's not a sport that requires a PhD to call yourself a coach. It's not like being a doctor. So there's a lot of information out there. And I think...
Yeah, I think, I think finding a trusted source and starting there is probably better than going down a rabbit hole on YouTube or Twitter or Facebook. And you can get a little bit confused, I think, if you've got a lot of different voices coming at you. So I'd start sort of small and then slowly branch out from there.
Tyson Popplestone (02:47.87)
That's a good point. I literally had this conversation an hour ago. I went and caught up with a mate for coffee and we were just speaking about the world of business coaches and how you've got like your Alex Hormozis and you've got your Gary Vaynerchuk. And there's so many people, like some people are like, all right, we're just gonna prioritize making money and having a relaxed lifestyle.
Ben Rosario (02:55.192)
and
Tyson Popplestone (03:05.468)
And then the other side's, no, we're gonna go as hard as we can all day, every day for as long as we can. And we were both saying that we'd kind of fallen victim to both of those approaches in the lead up. But I reckon if I had my time again, 100%, like the idea of sitting down with someone who's a little more established and just being guided by them and actually taking time to navigate what works for you. And cause so much of it is trial and error as well. Hey, like the idea of having 15 different approaches to running. Yeah, in theory, it sounds like a whole heap of fun.
but trying to actually unpack what theory or what approach is relevant to you is gonna take that time to navigate your way through some of the weeds and applying, all right, well, this is good for me, this is bad for me.
Ben Rosario (03:47.554)
Totally, mean it's kind of that same idea, what is that, all those books, such and such for dummies, Kayaking for dummies, cooking for dummies, whatever it might be, right? It's kind of running for dummies, like you gotta start there, let's just get the basics down. And then, yeah, over time what I find is you sort of naturally gravitate toward learning more and more. If you think about the classic,
Tyson Popplestone (03:55.734)
yeah.
Ben Rosario (04:16.085)
runner who started in high school, or we call it high school, you know, over here. And they started out as a freshman, a 14 year old, and they knew nothing. And their coach, who's theoretically is somewhat knowledgeable, right? Sort of taught them the basics. What's an easy day? What's a hard day? What's a mile repeat? What's a tempo run? You kind of learn the basics.
Then you start doing them, right? At practice, you start learning what a temple run feels like. You learn what hard repeats feel like. You learn how to do hills. You learn how to do a long run. And then as you go forth in your running journey, if you want to learn more, then you start, yeah, reading a book or reading some articles online. And you start realizing that there are some other theories out there and maybe you start testing those, but my gosh, if you tried to do it all the first
six months. I mean, I think you would run home crying.
Tyson Popplestone (05:15.137)
I feel stressed just thinking about it. It's actually, it's one thing that I find really interesting about just hosting this show. Like, I've been going now for about five years and this must be like pushing episode 270. And throughout the course of the conversation, had so many guns on here. But if you drilled into every philosophy, there's some real different perspectives. But what is cool is if you boiled them all down, there'd be some real standout features. And I think that's a nice place to start.
Ben Rosario (05:40.492)
Yes. Some core core principles, right? You'd be hard pressed to find a running coach who doesn't believe in building up the aerobic system over time, gradually, you know, increasing your workload over time. you know, taking breaks between seasons, touching all the different zones. Now what zone is their favorite, how much to touch, when to touch those things are nuanced.
Tyson Popplestone (05:43.332)
Exactly, exactly. And that was something.
Ben Rosario (06:08.93)
but I think there are a set of core principles that pretty much everybody adheres to.
Tyson Popplestone (06:15.614)
for sure. And that was one thing I'm excited to sort of delve into a little bit, not only because it's just a fantastic book title, Run Like a Pro Even If You're Slow, I thought we could unpack that a little bit because obviously a majority of people who are running, they're obviously running with the aim of improving their performance and whether or not the, like the finish line of what it is that they're pursuing is to become an elite runner or a high level runner or just.
run a better time. I mean, there are some practical strategies that you can apply, which are going to have some real, you know, strong correlations towards improved performance. Maybe at the risk of casting the net too broadly, I could throw it to you and we could set up a little scaffold around what some of those principles might actually be and why it is that you find them so important.
Ben Rosario (07:03.49)
Yeah, well, the book you're referencing run like a pro even if you're slow. First of all, I co-authored that book with Matt Fitzgerald, who is of course kind of like I was talking about at the top, very knowledgeable, very well known. A runner himself has written more books than I could, than probably even he could count. But the idea there with that book was sort of what we're talking about. There are some principles that the professionals use that really we should all use because
Tyson Popplestone (07:20.602)
Yeah
Ben Rosario (07:32.886)
the concept that we were trying to convey was, hey, this is their livelihood, right? So if they believe in easy days and their livelihood depends on it, then shouldn't we believe in easy days? They believe in getting a lot of sleep and their livelihood depends on it. So if we wanna run as fast as we can, even though it's not as fast as them, shouldn't we try to get as much sleep as possible? Very simple things like that. And I guess if I was going to list some of the key principles,
you know, it's that sort of hard, easy philosophy where some days need to be very easy. And then there, there, we do need to run fast sometimes if we want to improve, right. But we have to do it in a calculated way. We need to, if we want to be the best runner we can be, we need to put an emphasis on sleep and nutrition. That, is important. We also need to put an emphasis on
scheduling our training in such a way so as to be peaked on the right day. I think that's something that the pros do very well and that's something that amateurs get wrong quite often because we just want to hurt every workout and we want to have fun and we want to go to the group speed workouts and hammer with our buddies. But we need, if we want to be as good as we can on a certain race day,
we need to have a plan, right? The pros have a plan. And so that was one of the other principles that we talked about in the book. And there are others as well, but I think if I'm trying to boil it down, it's, know, running is a bit of a science. It's an art as well, but we have to adhere to some of the physiological principles that we know are present with running. you know, it is that like rest recovery sort of, you know,
work recovery sort of cycle. And it is understanding that the body needs nutrition to recover, needs sleep to recover, all those things. So kind of rambling, but it's that idea that look, if the pros do it and their livelihood depends on it, then you should probably do it too if you're someone who wants to set PRs.
Tyson Popplestone (09:41.178)
Yeah, that art science comparison is a really good one. It's something I actually just heard Cole Hocker speaking about this on. what's his name? I can't remember. He's one of the big hunters from the Jogan, Joe Rogan sphere. I can't believe I blanked on his name. Cam Haynes. He was on Cam Haynes' podcast.
Ben Rosario (09:59.672)
Okay.
Tyson Popplestone (10:01.66)
And it was really interesting because he was speaking to the idea of running as a lot of people get involved and they go, okay, well, I want to improve. What's the easiest way to improve? Well, let's, let's run a little bit more. But the problem with that approach is running being such a physical sport. The idea of just doing more and more and more has a, breaking point where naturally there's going to be a point of diminishing returns and even no returns if you're sitting on the sideline. And I liked hearing him speak about that because the truth, and I guess the confusion of
this conversation seems to come when it's like, what is that right workload? Like where is it that we should be at this particular time in our buildup or in our career? And like, what are some of the telltale signs that you might be going a little bit too much? And as a bloke who, I mean, I've been speaking, I've been in the sport now for 25 years and I hate to admit it, but there's still plenty of moments where I'm out there running and I'm like, all right, well, to be honest, I'm not a hundred percent sure if this niggle I feel.
is something to be treated seriously or whether this is just something which is gonna pass. And some days things I think are serious, I'll have forgotten about in a week later, I'm like, my gosh, okay, I had that heel thing last week. And then some things which feel so mild, you ignore. And then two weeks later, you're like, actually, this is causing a really big problem and might have to be addressed. I reckon the blessing and the curse of being in the running scene for a long time is perhaps you get too comfortable with.
with some of the discomforts, which throws like a little spanner in the works when it comes to knowing like, all right, do I stop? Do I push through? Like, is this normal? Do you understand what I'm sort of saying? I sort of have some of the people who are like, yeah.
Ben Rosario (11:38.956)
I totally understand. I totally understand what you're saying. You know, the way I've always explained it to, to runners is if it, if it is causing you to alter your stride in any way, or form, then it's, needs to be addressed immediately and you have to figure it out and fix it because you will have more problems. If you run, with any sort of compensation because then other things are going to
become an issue. If you're running and it's not causing any sort of compensation and it doesn't seem to be getting worse, then it can probably be managed. And to me, that's the difference between an ache and a pain and an injury. An ache and a pain, it's not causing you to alter your stride in any way, shape or form, and it's not getting worse. Then it's probably still in the ache and pain phase. But if it's causing you to alter your stride or if it's getting worse by the day, then I think we're
then we've crossed over into that injury situation. And so that's kind of how I describe it. But, you know, that's another thing we talk about in the book is the pros do a lot of prehab, right? They do a lot of work so that they never even have to deal with these things, right? And oftentimes the amateurs, we don't do that. And look, there's only so much time in the day, of course.
but even just five to 10 minutes of simple activation before you go for a run can prevent some of those things from happening. And if you said to any runner on the face of the planet that, hey, guess what? If you just do some simple activation routines for five to 10 minutes before every run, you'll significantly reduce your chance of injury. I think most people would do it. I think most people just don't realize that
it's actually not that time consuming to activate your glutes, activate your hamstrings, your quads, all the major muscle groups before you go for a run.
Tyson Popplestone (13:48.136)
That's a good point. Actually, my Garmin, for whatever reason, sometimes takes much longer than it should to load. And so I'm usually just waiting there after I've tied up the shoelaces to my shoes. I'm thinking I'm standing here anyway. So it's almost been a blessing in disguise. I used to get frustrated with the two or three minute delay sometimes in it loading, but I've really noticed, especially coming through the other side of a number of calf strains after like a long time away from competitive running, I've...
gotten a whole heap of benefit from just simple activation routines. And you're right, I reckon for me, three, I'm real, if I'm, you know, got plenty of time in the afternoon, maybe even five minutes worth of stuff, it's a small investment, hey, for a really big reward.
Ben Rosario (14:29.794)
Yeah, I'll say a couple other things, because I like to talk in sort of a common sense sort of way, right? So in what sport do people just start playing it? You know, but in running, we think we can just slap on our shoes and head out the door. But you wouldn't do that in almost any other sport, right? And particularly at a high level, mean, hockey players don't just slap on their skates and start skating. The NBA guys don't just...
Tyson Popplestone (14:39.608)
Yeah.
Ben Rosario (14:58.388)
start playing a game, they get warmed up, right? And I noticed it for myself this summer, I started working with this high school group here in Flagstaff, Arizona, and the coach has them do a little bit of a warmup routine before every run, even an easy run. And that wasn't something I was used to. Even when I was coaching pros, we'd just head out on our easy runs. But now my philosophy has changed because I realized even myself, my gosh, I feel better on this easy run because I did those activations.
And so if, you know, if I was telling anybody how to run a program now, I would say, Hey, yeah, you should be doing some amount of activation even before an easy run.
Tyson Popplestone (15:37.884)
Yeah, and what does that activation routine look like for you? Are there any particular muscles? I know you mentioned glutes before, but I'm guessing calves and hamstrings, quads.
Ben Rosario (15:45.162)
Yeah, I mean, to me, it's the major muscle groups, right? So it's doing something to activate the lower leg muscles, something to activate the hamstrings and the quads, the glutes, and then something to work on the lateral muscles as well. So like the adductor muscles, that's really it. It's not that hard. And that is something you can Google, different activation options for all those different muscle groups.
And honestly, five to 10 minutes. really doesn't take much.
Tyson Popplestone (16:17.788)
Yeah, that's something that you're doing with your crew. Like I know you mentioned, I'm not sure if we were live when you said this, but you'd been doing a fair bit of work at the, what was it, hospital.
Ben Rosario (16:26.05)
Yeah, the high school level. Like just so like 14 to 18 year olds and we never go for a run without some amount of activation. So the, the activation we do before an easy run is very simple. five, 10 minutes, just some toe walks, some, yeah, a couple of little ham hamstring things, some very light skipping, forward, and then some lateral skipping, nothing really that crazy. And then before a harder session.
we'll do those easy kind of basic ones and then we'll do some more dynamic things. So that's where we're doing like our butt kicks and high knees and cariocas and some of the things that are a little quicker so that we kind of really activate the fast twitch muscle fibers before we start doing a harder session.
Tyson Popplestone (17:12.158)
Yeah, that's interesting that you mentioned the cariocas. It's cool to see some of the coordination kind of agility warmup exercises coming in. I'm 38, or 38 in a couple of weeks. And I remember the idea of me as a 12 year old kid doing anything like a carioca in the warmup track would have just been seen as a little bit of a joke. I mean, yeah.
Ben Rosario (17:30.658)
Yeah, two laps and go, you know? Yeah.
Tyson Popplestone (17:32.742)
Yeah, it's funny, exactly right. We had the same warmup routine at 12 years old, apparently. But yeah, you only have to watch a couple of episodes of these Kenyan Ethiopian athletes getting out there and just watching these muscle groups tie together through like a strange coordination activity to start to say, okay, there must be.
something within that like the idea of a karaoke to to you guys What's the what's the reason for implementing that because I mean it feels good I can see I know I'm pretty familiar with the exercise and I like that I like how it feels But I think a lot of people who are maybe from like a running based sport goes. Okay. I thought this was something mainly for coordination based activities
Ben Rosario (18:10.026)
No, no, I think there's a coordination and athleticism component for sure. But then there's also an activation component because if you think about what's going on during that particular exercise, you're really opening up your hips, right? anything that activates the hips and the hip flexors, I really like because we sit down as a society now more than ever in the history of humankind.
Right? Human beings never sat as much as we do today. And when we're sitting, our hip flexors are completely dormant. They're not getting activated at all. And so I feel like that almost more than any area needs to really be opened up before we start running because if we don't do that, then what's happening? We're going for a run with tight,
hip flexors that haven't been loosened up, right? So our range of motion isn't what it could be. And we're gonna all be shuffling out there like we're 80 years old. We need to have that full range of motion if we wanna get the most out of our bodies. And we're not gonna get that if our hip flexors aren't being activated.
Tyson Popplestone (19:14.302)
you
Tyson Popplestone (19:24.39)
Yeah, so karaoke was one that you mentioned. Are there any other drill style warm up activities that you're a big fan of?
Ben Rosario (19:31.548)
that I'm a big fan of. You know, I like skipping for the lower legs because it's just, it's easy. We all know how to skip. It's a good, like to almost, skipping is one of the first ones I do because it's just very easy. gets everything going. What else do I like? You know, I like,
Tyson Popplestone (19:37.342)
You did say that, yeah.
Ben Rosario (20:01.12)
I like things that are lateral too. I karaoke has a lateral component, but I like doing lateral skips as well as front skips because I think we need to be athletic and oftentimes we are not as runners. And so some of the things that make us feel a little bit more athletic, I think that's good too. Yeah. And then before a hard workout, I definitely like the dynamic stuff, the butt kicks, the high knees, the classic things like that.
Tyson Popplestone (20:16.552)
you
Ben Rosario (20:30.03)
fast feet drills, where just for like 10 meters, you go up and down off the ground as fast as possible, as many times as possible, both feet, that. What a great neuromuscular drill. And ultimately, all of these drills, as you get good at them, you should be lessening your ground contact time, because that's another component to your stride being as efficient and as fast as possible, right? We want that full range of motion, but we also want to be spending as little time on the ground as possible.
So all of these drills, if you add them up, are ultimately trying to create a situation where we've got full range of motion, we've got power, we're working on that paw grip, that push off, and you're isolating that in some of the skip drills, like the A skips and the B skips especially. And then we're trying to be quick, right? So all those things work together to make us the best runner we can be.
Tyson Popplestone (21:28.54)
Yeah, I guess every generation says this, but it is amazing what each generation of new runners bring to the table. Like as I said, it was 20 years ago or more than that now, I'm afraid to say, when I was warming up that these were sort of foreign that have made their way into the sport. But I mean, you look at particularly the last 18 months to maybe even the last three years, some of the breakthroughs that we're seeing in the distance running world of
have been mind boggling. obviously like we're looking at, yeah, sure, little things like this, but also things like shoe technology. I mean, I know Black Harp Soda has been starting to get a real mention in the conversation over the last Black Harp Soda. Yeah, it's been fascinating, man. Like, I don't know if you've got any theories on what the heck is going on, but the fact that we've got, who was it? Ngoosi breaking the mile world record, only for it to be taken back by Ingebrigtsen. The fact that
Ben Rosario (22:07.052)
What, bicarb, yeah, yeah.
Ben Rosario (22:20.12)
mile record.
Tyson Popplestone (22:23.964)
Cole Hocker and who was it? Who was it? was Brad Fischer, course. 722. What is going on in this world of distance running at the moment? Because something, there's something in the food that I need to get for my breakfast cereal. it's been mind blowing. I remember Daniel Coleman's record of 720 for 3K until Inger Bryxton smashed it. Was like, okay, this one's.
Ben Rosario (22:26.801)
Grant Fisher set the world record in the 3,000, yeah. And then in the 5,000.
Tyson Popplestone (22:52.424)
kind of baffling how long it's been around for. And now all of a sudden it looks real unimpressive.
Ben Rosario (22:57.378)
Well, I think it's a couple of things, right? So number one is the shoe technology, but it's layered, right? Because in terms of on race day, that's one thing, right? Like if you ran a mile race in spikes from 10 years ago,
And then the next week, we ran a mile in spikes from today. You would run faster for sure. Uh, percentage points faster. Um, but the reason that everything is getting shattered is the cumulative effect. Now after folks have been in these super shoes and these super spikes for three, four or five years, right? I mean, we're looking at that many years now of these things being around. And so if you're a.
28 year old in your prime like Grant Fisher, especially Grant Fisher because he's been with Nike, right, for so long, for his entire career, even going back to Stanford. So when he was 18 years old at Stanford University back in, I guess that would have been like 2016 or so, as early as, or yeah, like 2017, 18, Nike had Super Shoes. So Grant's been running...
workouts in those shoes, running faster, recovering faster, being able to handle more volume for his entire adult life, right? What about a kid like Ethan Strand from the University of North Carolina, 348 mile this year? Ethan told me personally that he's never done a workout in his life without super shoes on. His dad owned a running store.
So when he was a freshman in high school, he was training in super shoes, right? And my point about the cumulative effect is every workout you do, you're running faster than you would have been able to otherwise. You're running more efficiently than you would have been able to otherwise. Theoretically, you're able to handle more volume than you would have been able to otherwise. And you're recovering quicker so you can do the next workout earlier and more than you would have been before.
Ben Rosario (25:10.86)
So there's this giant snowball effect that I think we're seeing, that's what we're seeing right now. We're seeing the cumulative effect. And I think we're still on a trajectory. And I think you're still, your mind is gonna continue to be blown for the next, man, I would say three to five years before we see a plateau.
Tyson Popplestone (25:32.294)
Yeah, it's like an EPO for your feet.
Ben Rosario (25:35.736)
was for your whole body because it's your heart as well. Like, cause now, because they're making you more efficient, your heart rate, I'll just make up some numbers cause everybody's heart rate is a little bit different. But if you used to be able to run five minute pace and your heart rate was at 175, now you can run at the same pace, five minutes, but your heart rate is 150 because you're running so much more efficiently.
You know how you feel when you have a strain or a little niggle and it's like an out of body experience because everything's so much harder, your heart rate's higher, you're breathing harder than you should? That's because you're not as efficient because you have this little strain, right? It's the same concept but the other way, right? So now you put on these shoes and you're so much more efficient. So you're able to do so much more work and your heart is able to do that work at a lower heart rate, right?
And so I'm just telling you the compound effect of all this is crazy.
Tyson Popplestone (26:39.398)
Yeah, man, it's really wild. I also like the psychological aspect of it as well. Like even the way I'm seeing it from an outsider in the sense of I won't be running these times, like a 350 mile all of a sudden, it's obviously still impressive, but it doesn't sound that impressive when you've got high schoolers or college students running 348 miles and finishing up a little bit disappointed that they weren't higher up the field. I listened to an interview with Cam Myers after, I think he was 17 or something, you're in 350.
Ben Rosario (27:02.818)
Yeah. Yeah.
Tyson Popplestone (27:09.406)
It's like a world age record, whatever age he was. And the journalist said to him after the race, like, are you feeling? He's like, man, honestly, I was expecting more. I'm disappointed. The guy's like, yeah, but you just broke the world record. He's like, yeah, it's good, but you know, I want to finish higher up the field. When you hear a 16 or 17 year old kid speaking like that, all of a sudden, like the respect that you hold for 350 miles starts to diminish a little bit. And it seems that, you know, you get 10 athletes running 725 for 3K.
All of a sudden, 725 for 3K is not as intimidating a prospect.
Ben Rosario (27:42.414)
I agree with you 100%, but I'll tell you this. I love what Cam said there, because the one thing that hasn't changed and will never change is somebody has to win, right? In a race, somebody has to win. There's still a gold medal, a silver medal, and a bronze medal, right? And no matter what the times are that people are running, there's still intangibles up here between the ears that...
ultimately makes the difference between the champions and the people who just run fast times. And to me, that's comforting because I want to see competition. I would much rather see the Olympic 1500 meter final and not care what the time is because there's stakes. There's something on the line, a gold medal. Or in the United States, the NCAA championships are always going to be exciting to me because there's stakes.
and the stakes are who's gonna win because you're a legend if you win an NCAA title, you're a legend if you win a gold medal, and you're a legend if you win the New York City Marathon. And just because you run a fast time doesn't really make you a legend, because guess what, three years later, that time's not gonna mean as much anyway, just to our point, right? And so to me, I'm still a fan of the sport because of winning and losing, and that will never change for me.
Tyson Popplestone (29:03.198)
Yeah, that's a really cool attitude. You're right. I guess when it comes to a championship, you're not worried about whether it's one in like what century it's running one in 350 or 349 and he's still an Olympic champion. No one cares.
Ben Rosario (29:16.234)
No one cares. I don't care. Yeah. I mean, an Olympic champion is Olympic champion and these times are fleeting. They're just going to keep getting destroyed. So I like Cam's attitude. Yeah. World record for now, but it's going to get broken. They can never take a win away from you. know, a win is on the history is in the history books forever.
Tyson Popplestone (29:35.388)
Yeah, I know if you've looked too much into the bike episode conversation, but I mean, I've seen one or two let's run threads that started to pop up about just the impact that it's having. listen a lot to, you familiar with David Roche? Like the ultra marathon? Yeah. Yeah, it's been really interesting because I follow his YouTube channel from time to time and I've heard a couple of great interviews with him.
Ben Rosario (29:49.526)
Yeah, I know. Yeah, I know who he is. Yeah.
Tyson Popplestone (29:58.82)
And he's really big on it, just as a part of his training routine, pre-race routine, particularly for the hard workouts. I remember hearing like little whispers of the benefits of bicarb soda back in like 2008, but the only access I had to it was sort of like the bicarb soda box in my kitchen, you know, in the cupboard. And I remember a couple of times just trying to do like an odd mix, which was based purely on guesses. And I was like, this is horrific. I'm never doing it again.
but it seems that Morton's concocted like a formula which seems to sit relatively well with most people. I mean, at the moment, I'm not sure if I'm wrong, but it seems subjective, but there's plenty of subjective opinions that are saying, yeah, this is helping me a lot.
Ben Rosario (30:42.562)
Yeah, you might call it anecdotal, you know, right now until we get some really hard and fast data, but yeah, I think in my personal opinion, it has more to do with the shoes and the cumulative effect of training in the shoes. Plus, the one thing I didn't mention, and you were kind of getting at it with like attitude and mindset is now people aren't afraid to do just a ton of threshold work because before it just seemed like too much, but nothing seems like too much now. So they're getting just
Tyson Popplestone (31:04.944)
Yeah.
Ben Rosario (31:12.332)
way more threshold work, which was always my favorite zone anyway. But to stick with the bike car conversation, I don't know. I mean, I know that some people are using it, but I also know some really good people that it didn't really sit well with them and they seem to be running really fast also. So to me, it doesn't seem like the variable that is making the biggest difference, but that's not to say it's not making a difference.
Tyson Popplestone (31:30.814)
Thank you.
Ben Rosario (31:41.622)
So I think the book is still out on that one, whereas we know the Super Shoes are making a huge difference. So we'll see, but I think the bicarb certainly could be a part of it, probably is.
Tyson Popplestone (31:47.069)
Yeah.
Tyson Popplestone (31:52.348)
Yeah, I really like your tape, like the cumulative effect of just, you know, weeks, months and years of training faster, recovering more effectively. Well, you reckon the peak of what we're watching now is years ahead based on the fact that just keep layering down those consistent benefits is going to lead to even better results.
Ben Rosario (32:10.518)
Yeah, for sure, for sure, because, because, look, evolution is what it is, right? 50 years seems like a long time to us, but it's not really a long time in, in human history, right? So we're not that physiologically different than we were 50 years ago. Certainly not than we were 20 years ago. So it has to be the technology. It has to be right. And, and, and that's, just common sense. And so when you've got the.
Kids now in high school, and literally I was just at a running store tonight, as I told you before we got on, watching kids buy shoes, many of the kids were buying super shoes to train in. And so we've got a whole generation still to go here that's gonna train in these shoes from the time they're 12, 13, 14 years old. And so yeah, I don't think it's gonna stop for a while. It'll eventually sort of plateau once...
everybody that's at a high level grew up that way. That's when there'll be somewhat of a plateau, but I don't think we're there yet.
Tyson Popplestone (33:16.926)
It's interesting, man. It's a really good point. One thing which a lot of people have mentioned to me, which I don't like, I hate being the guy to bring it up just because it sounds so cynical, but obviously so many, with so many Kenyans being busted and stuff at the moment for performance enhancing drugs, whenever a world record's broken now, there's an element of skepticism and an element of doubt like that creeps into mind because it's like, it's a classic example of like, all right, well, you're running faster than these blokes who have been busted and you just happen to be that much more naturally superior.
that you're gonna outrun these guys despite that. I don't know if you've got any thoughts on that part of the game, but it seems like the, I don't know if it's the access or the ability to manipulate the system when it comes to performance enhancing drugs seems to have improved as well.
Ben Rosario (34:02.318)
Yeah, it's the worst part of the sport, you know, for sure it is. And look, I've been on the on the receiving end of it where I've coached athletes. And then, you know, a year later, we find out that we were up against somebody that was using performance enhancing drugs. And I think there's so many speaking of things being layered, there's so many things that anger me about that, because it's not just that, you know, so and so finished fourth ahead of my athlete that was seventh. It's also
That athlete affected the race, right? Like in 2019, I had an athlete, Scott Falwell, that was seventh at the Boston Marathon. Well, at 22 miles, there was a pack of eight guys and he was in that pack, right? And then a guy took off and made a big move and broke it up and Scott ended up finishing seventh. And this guy ended up finishing. I don't remember what it was, second, third or fourth or something like that. And then got busted a year later. Okay. Well,
What if he wasn't on performance enhancing drugs? Maybe he doesn't make that big move. And then maybe Scott's still there at 24 miles or 25 miles. And then what happens? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, we'll never know, right? And that's what angers me. But as far as how prevalent it is, you know, my cynical response is that it's as prevalent, it's been prevalent. I mean, it's been a problem since the 90s, you know, in our sport when EPO came onto the scene.
and it's still a problem and I don't blame you for being skeptical. I don't blame anybody for being skeptical. I blame the people who use performance enhancing drugs. That's who we should be mad at. We shouldn't be mad at the people for being skeptical. I tend to think...
If it really looks like an outlier, that's when I get super skeptical. I get skeptical a lot, just like you, and I hate to say that, but when it really is an outlier, especially in this day and age that we're talking about, when everybody's doing the right stuff, everybody's eating well, everybody's sleeping well, everybody's using super shoes, and yet this person is, you know, 10, 15, 20 % better than everybody else, that's hard to believe.
Tyson Popplestone (36:12.741)
I know, yeah, it's so interesting. Craig Motram told me once, because I was asking him this question about it. said, mate, like, there's certain athletes, and this has gone back to sort of 2006, 2007 when he was at his peak. I there's certain athletes that you're racing that I'm pretty sure are using. And he goes, I can promise you that on the international circuit right now, there's like a consensus and an agreement amongst every athlete on the start line.
that there's one or two people, but you just know without a doubt are using like words up and out with it from a doctor or from their team or whatever. He goes, it's, it's unfortunately just a part of the sport. And I said, yeah, yeah, but you must cop this kind of criticism as well. goes, yeah, yeah, but I'm one in a billion. And I thought, well, there can only be so many in a billion who can get away with that argument. And to your point, like, yeah, and I guess when you're, there's exceptions to this rule, but when you lay down 10 or 15 years of a consistent career,
I guess you start to appear less suspect if you've been consistent over that whole time rather than these outliers that you speak of where it's like, well, you were running, you know, 355 last season. Now you're almost breaking 350. You go, what happened there? That was, you've been competitive for 10 years.
Ben Rosario (37:21.88)
Well, you know, the challenge is we can't talk about anybody that we suspect because, you know, that opens up a whole can of worms. What we can do is talk about people who were found guilty, right? So, gosh, I'm going to butcher the name, the Spanish athlete who... Yeah, Couture. I mean, this is exactly what you're talking about. If you're in the know, you watch that and you're like, this is BS.
Tyson Popplestone (37:40.553)
Muhammad gets here.
Ben Rosario (37:50.19)
This is not real what I'm watching here. This guy wasn't even good a year ago and now he's just jogging at 1250. This is a joke, you know? But you can't say that until he gets found guilty because then you're defaming this person and again, it opens up a whole can of worms and it makes you look like you're sour grapes or something. But I mean, come on, you know?
Tyson Popplestone (37:57.191)
I'm like...
Tyson Popplestone (38:11.921)
Yes.
Ben Rosario (38:16.706)
But it's just a challenge and I liked what Nick Willis said years ago. He said, look, I know that this is a part of it. I hate that this is a part of it, but I also know that I'm clean. I'm paraphrasing, but I also know that I'm clean. And I also know that once a year I can be totally peaked and I can beat these guys. I can't beat them week in and week out because they're cheating. And that's not how the body works. I can't be that ready every single week. But if I get my peak right,
I can compete even with the dirty guys on the right day. And it sucks that he has to feel that way, but I do think he's right. And I think his career showed that he was right because he did win medals because he was ready on the biggest days.
Tyson Popplestone (39:00.154)
Yeah, he's a great example of a person. I'm glad it was him that...
Ben Rosario (39:02.358)
And he was clean, I'm 100,000 % sure.
Tyson Popplestone (39:05.534)
For sure, well he seems to commit it to his faith. Like I feel as though it becomes a like almost an ethical, moral thing for someone like that where they go, okay, well yeah, I might be able to deceive tens of thousands of athletes and coaches, but like with the standard that he seems to hold himself up to with what he believes, I go, it'd be a difficult process for a bloke like that to justify, you know, any drug use.
Ben Rosario (39:26.188)
Yeah, and I think faith or not, there's just some people that have a set of morals, whether it comes from faith or not. And I think he was definitely one of those people.
Tyson Popplestone (39:35.492)
I agree. It's interesting man as well because yet his consistency at major championships is what I like about that particular example because he was the king of like, if he was on the start line, you knew he was going to be thereabouts. And if he had his best day, he was going to win. But I reckon you could almost lay down like eight major championships where he was thereabouts. Hey, like was pretty, I put him in the same category as what Matt Centrum was in for a while. Like back when he was at his peak, you look at him and you go, dude, this was...
his ability just to be on and race was insane.
Ben Rosario (40:07.854)
Yeah, he's a master tactician. know, master tactician could always be in the right place at the right time, it seemed like. And I always feel like those type of guys in the 1500, and women by the way, we keep using guys as an example, we should use women as well. Ellie St. Pierre on the American side is a really good tactician, has become one, wasn't always good at first, but has become a good tactician. But I think it's confidence.
You I think it's confidence. You can almost look at their face early in the race and see the people. If you paused it, right? If you watched a major championship, 1500 men or women, you can almost pause your screen and just pick out the people that really believe they can win. And there's really only, you know, a few of them usually until you get to the very highest level, maybe an Olympic final. But even then, even in an Olympic final, you can tell some people are just happy to be there.
Tyson Popplestone (40:55.88)
For sure, man. Yeah, Josh Kerr, I put in that category. He's been a real interesting one to watch. I love him because he copps it a bit because of his so-called arrogance. Personally, I've got a real high tolerance for arrogance. yeah, I'm like.
Ben Rosario (40:58.901)
Ben Rosario (41:08.64)
Me too, me too. I mean, those are the fun people to watch.
Tyson Popplestone (41:12.846)
Totally man. I've got no interest in the UFC but yeah, Conor McGregor sort of got me involved just because of the way he carried himself and yeah, it's been I'm not sure in the last 20 years whether there's been someone who's just happy to say it as loud and proud as what Josh Kerr is and the way that he ran that Olympic final last year or What was it? Yeah last year. Well
I go, man, he's able to walk the talk as well. He's not just talking. To run 327, the biggest day of your life, just get out-spirited by a bloke who's had the biggest day of his life was mind-blowing. It's pretty cool. Yeah, Cole Hocker's an interesting one because he seems, he's interesting. He's quite humble, but then you hear him speak and he's definitely very confident, which I like. I like that because he's nice too.
Ben Rosario (41:56.546)
He's very confident. He's very confident. I mean, you just can't be that good without being very, very confident. And some people are, you know, a little bit more forthcoming with that confidence, like a Josh Kerr or a Yaqub. You know, or in another sport, like a Serena Williams was very outspoken about her confidence, but they're all confident. know, champions are all confident. You have to be, you have to be borderline cocky, right?
to have that level of belief in yourself. And again, that's the Michael Jordans and the Tiger Woods's and the Serena Williams's and the Novak Djokovic's. mean, across sports, the best people have a level of confidence that is hard for you and I to grasp.
Tyson Popplestone (42:45.34)
Yeah, it's a good point, What does 2025 look like for you? What are some of the big focus points for you and your crew?
Ben Rosario (42:53.422)
Well, you know, so I've left the the NAZ Elite crew, handed that off to a guy named Jack Mulaney, who's now the head coach and executive director. And now I'm on to the next phase of my life. I've always loved putting on events. So I'm putting on an event called the Marathon Project that'll be in December of 2025. We'll have a big amateur race on Saturday that is going to be unlike any other amateur race in the world, I think, where
We'll have a thousand people only. So it's cut off at a thousand. Everybody gets their own personal bottle. We have pace groups, indoor warmup area. Basically you get treated like a pro. And then the next day we have the professional race and it's all on this super fast flat loop course. We had a race there in December of 2020 during the pandemic and seven U S men broke two 10 Sarah Hall ran two 20. So it's a lightning fast course.
Chandler, Arizona, beautiful weather. So I'm all in on that. That's what I'm doing right now. Not to say I won't do other things in the future, but right now I'm very, very much all in on this event.
Tyson Popplestone (44:02.558)
That's unreal, man. So the amateur event thousand cutoff, like what are the, is there a qualifying process or it's first in best dressed?
Ben Rosario (44:09.278)
It's it's a total meritocracy. We'll take the top 500 men, top 500 women who enter, so there's no entry standards. We've got a couple auto standards, but that's just for logistical purposes so we can get them in right away. But otherwise we'll wait till April 1st and see who the top people are and then we'll just let them in. No age group stuff. None of that. It's just the fastest people you could be 55. You could be 25. You know I just. We want it to be as fast as possible and we want them to run as fast as possible.
There's plenty of races for everybody. That's not us. We wish we could do that, but we have a loop course, so we can't do it. We have to have a limited number and because we have a limited number, we're gonna treat them like VIPs.
Tyson Popplestone (44:52.51)
Yeah, that's amazing, man. What distance is the loop?
Ben Rosario (44:55.662)
It's 4.26 miles. So there's a little start straight away, then you go onto the loop and then there's a little finish straight away. So it ends up equaling 26.2 miles. Start and finish same spot.
Tyson Popplestone (45:07.708)
That's exciting, man. So what you've been sitting on this since 2020.
Ben Rosario (45:11.438)
Yeah, I mean, you we did it and it was a big success, but it was always meant to be a one-off because of the pandemic. But it was so successful that we always kind of thought, well, maybe we'll bring it back someday. But I always felt like if I brought it back, I'd have to commit to it 100 % because, you know, coaching the team and directing the team, that took up so much of my time and effort and energy. just it was a it wasn't going to be feasible to do both.
But I stepped away from that and so now it's feasible, so now I'm doing it.
Tyson Popplestone (45:42.556)
Yeah man, so what are your days looking like at the moment? So there's obviously plenty of planning for that, plenty of work with the school.
Ben Rosario (45:48.374)
Yeah, I'm just trying to, I mean, I do wanna be busy outside of that. I say I'm all in on it, which I am, but I do like to be busy. So yeah, I've been helping out with the high school, my family, we're gonna move down to the Phoenix area. the meet, I said the meet, I'm in that high school track mode. The race, the event is in a municipality called Chandler, Arizona. So that's in the Phoenix, Arizona area.
So we're going to move down to that area. My daughter's going to go to high school down there. So I'll be closer to that area. And I'll be able to get involved in the running community down there. So I imagine I'll be very involved with group runs and speed workouts and races throughout the year down in that area. But of course, you know, each year in December, we'll be putting on this race. We hope that it lasts, you know, decades and becomes a legacy race in the global running world.
Tyson Popplestone (46:42.522)
Man, that's so exciting. Yeah, I wasn't I wasn't up to speed with what it was you were doing in the in this marathon Well, I didn't understand the concept fully but yeah, it's exciting i'm pumped to pump to see how it plays out brother It'll be a maybe we'll have to touch base after or again just before if you're keen and have a little bit fun
Ben Rosario (46:57.048)
Sure, sure, of course, of course. This has been super cool. Yeah, I'd love to do that.
Tyson Popplestone (47:00.702)
Yeah, all right, Dude, I'm let you go enjoy your evening. I know you got a couple of hours before it's bedtime over there. So I'll let you go enjoy the family when they get back. But dude, really appreciate you coming on. And I knew I was gonna enjoy the chat. I certainly did. So yeah, thanks for making the time.
Ben Rosario (47:16.336)
Thanks so much. This was a blast really appreciate
Tyson Popplestone (47:18.854)
Awesome, brother. I'll cut that off there, Yeah, dude. Great.