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“I was thinking, I'm not going to be able to do this anymore. That was the scary bit.”
At some point in our lives we all get scared – of making the wrong decision, of not being a good parent, or that everyone will figure out we’re just making it up as we go.
I’ve spent years helping leaders work through fear, stress, and uncertainty. Now I’m making a podcast about how they face their fears and come out stronger.
It’s for founders, leaders, and business owners who feel like they’re constantly fighting uphill and not finding the balance they need to be effective at work and present at home.
Sally-Anne: 00:02:33 I'm Sally Anne Marie and welcome to Fearless Forward. The podcast asks leaders how they face their fears. Today, I'm in conversation with a prominent leadership coach and author whose well-established career was upended by a sudden, dramatic and near-fatal event which left him wondering whether he'd ever recover. Ian Day transitioned into coaching over 20 years ago, when he left his job as head of talent in a FTSE company, to become a partner in a company that applied the techniques of Olympic sports coaching to the business sector. Six years on, he harnessed that experience to co-author the groundbreaking book Challenging Coaching, encouraging leaders and coaches to step beyond their traditional comfort zone. Then in 2017, during a regular fitness class, Ian suffered a sudden cardiac arrest that left him without a heartbeat for 20 minutes. He was resuscitated, but that time without oxygen caused a serious brain injury, and in the days and weeks that followed, it was not at all clear how much of his memory, movement or independence he'd regain, or whether he would even survive.
Sally-Anne: 00:03:44 Miraculously, he did. But the journey has been long and difficult. After a triple bypass operation, he had to relearn how to speak, walk and carry out basic tasks. His recovery has required huge reserves of patience and perseverance, his families as well as his own. It's an experience he describes as both humbling and illuminating. Ian has returned to the work he loves of supporting leaders through change, challenge and uncertainty. He still grapples with invisible handicaps but finds ways around them. And now he brings to his work not just his deep professional insight and experience, but also a direct personal understanding of what it means to lose control. Start again and keep going. In our conversation, we talk about what happens when life just stops without warning, and how Ian now thinks about resilience not as bouncing back, but is moving forward differently. We explore how it's changed, the way he listens, the pace he moves at and what he considers most important in leadership and in life. So, Ian, tell us, what's it like to come back from the dead?
Ian: 00:05:08 Well, that's a very interesting question, Sally.
Ian: 00:05:11 That really is clearly, this is the biggest thing that ever happened to me after getting married and my daughter being born, of course. But this was the biggest thing that ever happened to me, and it was in 2017. So it's eight years now, and you are the second person to ask that question in that period of time. It's almost like it's that. That's such a big question. Nobody seems to want to ask, but that's sort of like, well, what's it like? What's it like? I was at a sports club when I had my cardiac arrest, and a group of friends were then, and luckily they knew CPR. And so they performed CPR on my chest for 20 minutes and basically saved my life until the ambulance arrived. So when I sort of recovered nine, 12 months later, I took them out for a meal to say thank you. And one of the guys asked me, what's it like to be dead? And everyone else around the table saw me. You can't ask them.
Ian: 00:06:11 You can't ask that. And I thought, no, that's a perfectly valid question. That's really, really sensible. Yeah, because it doesn't happen. It doesn't happen to many people, does it? And it's almost like when you ask that question, it's almost unbelievable that it actually happened to me. And eight years later, here I am and I haven't recovered. I am a lot better. I am not the person I used to be, because there's long lasting implications of a triple heart bypass that followed and a hypoxic brain damage and all that sort of stuff. So there's implications at last with me, but I'm I'm living a good life, but it's almost like sometimes it feels unreal. It really does because I had brain damage. So I was in a coma for a couple of weeks afterwards, and then I had brain damage, and I wasn't really aware of what was going on. A lot of what I knew about the early days, my wife and daughter told me what was happening. So it's almost like a story I've been told, and it seems like a fiction.
Ian: 00:07:15 It seems like a movie that I've watched. But actually, the funny thing is, I'm the central character in that movie, but I don't realize it and I don't remember it.
Sally-Anne: 00:07:26 Well, I guess you have no point of reference, right? This is a unique one. Hope's totally unique experience that only 10% of the population ever have. Because only 10% of the population who suffer cardiac arrest, as you did survive.
Ian: 00:07:44 Yeah. It's amazing statistics. It's a very, very scary statistic. And I'm incredibly lucky and incredibly grateful that when it happened, I had so many people that knew CPR, and for 20 minutes they took it in turns to bring me back. And that was right. There was a series of lucky things. There was my friends that knew how to do CPR while the ambulance were were called. They carried on pumping my chest. So brain damage occurred because of oxygen starvation to my brain. But they managed to reduce that as much as possible. And then when I was taken into hospital, it just happened to be that a consultant cardiologist was on that night and originally they didn't know what was the matter.
Ian: 00:08:31 And this cardiologist managed to figure it out. So there was a number of very, very lucky circumstances. So yeah, that statistic of 10% out of hospital survival for a cardiac arrest is very, very scary. I'm incredibly grateful. And as I say, sometimes it feels surreal to a certain extent. I haven't come to terms to it because I had the cardiac arrest and that was that was March time. And then I had a triple heart bypass and that was July time. So I've got this scar on my chest that's quite a large scar. I still can't look at it and I still can't touch it. And it's, you know, eight years later, I get out of the shower, I get dried, and I get dressed as quickly as possible so I don't have to look at this thing. So I'm sort of still in denial about what happened, because the limitations of I can't remember what happened and I can't remember things for several months afterwards. And the brain damage I still live with it means that it limits my memory.
Ian: 00:09:28 It's almost like I'm protected because I can't remember. So I'm protected. So I'm almost in this little bubble of protection, denial, whatever it might be, that it didn't happen. Maybe that's a good thing, because I don't have PTSD relating to this because I just can't remember it.
Sally-Anne: 00:09:45 Because isn't that a definition or a think or a way of describing PTSD is not so much the event, but how we relate to it. You know, the impact it has on us, right? So one person's severe trauma might be somebody else's, dare I say, mere blip.
Ian: 00:10:00 Yeah, absolutely.
Sally-Anne: 00:10:01 You know, that is the opposite end of but but you know, it can be that kind of. Would you mind if I delve into that a little bit.
Ian: 00:10:07 Yeah.
Sally-Anne: 00:10:08 Carry this unwillingness to look at your scarf. Do you mind talking a bit more about that?
Ian: 00:10:15 Yeah. Yeah, that's almost like the last bit I've come to terms with my sort of physical and cognitive limitations, but this bit here on my chest is the sort of the last bit that I sort of still can't come to terms with, because that is really the only tangible physical sign that it's real.
Ian: 00:10:38 So if I was to look at this, that would keep reminding me that it knows you're not imagining it. You're not pretending it. People aren't telling you things and it's just fantasy. It did really happen because I've got this massive scar on my chest, so it's almost like I can pretend it didn't happen. Except when I look and I touch the scar. And I don't do that very often because I can't. I find that very difficult.
Sally-Anne: 00:11:02 Yes.
Ian: 00:11:03 That's the only physical symbol of what really happened eight years ago.
Sally-Anne: 00:11:08 And your experience, paraphrasing what I heard earlier around noticing, as you put it, limitations i.e. differences, things that you used to be able to do that you can't do. I'm imagining that they may also be gifts, and I'd love to delve into that. But you know the limitations if we can just go with that word for now.
Ian: 00:11:29 Yeah.
Sally-Anne: 00:11:31 Can you tell us a little bit about that and how that's impacted positively and negatively the work that you do?
Ian: 00:11:37 Yes. As I recovered, it was almost like the brain damage was almost like wiped my slate clean.
Ian: 00:11:44 And I was like a five year old child again. So it was quite funny that my dad would come to visit me in hospital and I'd recognize him, but my wife and daughter I wouldn't recognize. So everything. There was a really old memory back to when I was a child. It was fine. It was still there, but more recent memories were completely gone. So as I was recovering and I was in the last hospital, my wife and daughter put up a family photograph next to my bed so I could see it, and they wrote my name and their names underneath the photograph, so I knew who they were. But to start off with, they were the nice lady and the pretty girl because I didn't know who they were.
Sally-Anne: 00:12:24 Oh.
Ian: 00:12:26 I got to know them. I got to know them again. And they were wonderful in terms of helping my recovery. But it was like I had to. I had to learn to walk. I was in the physio gym with parallel bars to help stability and help me walk.
Ian: 00:12:40 I had to learn to recognise food. I didn't know what food was. Gosh, I knew what custard was because when I was a child I used to love my grandma's apple tart and custard. So I knew what custard was, but I didn't have anything else. So apparently when the nurses came round they said, you want some custard? I go, yes, because I knew what that was. But if they said, do you want some chicken? I didn't know what it was. I did it anyway, so I had to learn to recognise my family. I had to learn to recognise food. I had to learn to walk. I had to learn basically everything.
Sally-Anne: 00:13:11 And the word, the phrase is so often used, you know, beginner's mind. My goodness, you were right in it. Right? Right from the beginning, so to speak, in certain parts of your life.
Ian: 00:13:22 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And it was again the gift, I think, of that because I had no memory.
Ian: 00:13:32 A memory is about the past, but also it's anticipating the future in a way. I wasn't anxious about the future because I had no way of contemplating or understanding that. So in a way, I wasn't. I wasn't anxious and I wasn't worried because I didn't know. So the gift was I just didn't know so I could muddle along.
Sally-Anne: 00:13:56 Why?
Ian: 00:13:57 Goodness, in this five year old world of discovery and gradually getting better and better. So it's almost like my over a period of maybe 12 months, my cognitive ability developed from a five year old to a six year old and, gradually got better and better. But it did take a long time. And I suppose about 12 months later, it was almost like that realization. Maybe this has stabilized now. Maybe this is where it is. And I've been working as a leadership coach for many, many years, and I teach coaching skills at university as well now. And some of the basic skills are summarizing and reflecting back what the client has said, and you encourage them to reflect on the points.
Ian: 00:14:40 And I just couldn't remember what people had said, so I couldn't summarize what they've said to me. I couldn't reflect back. So I was sort of in this position of thinking, God, I'm not going to be able to do this. And that was the scary moment. It was almost like something I'd been coaching for 20 years, and I love it. I devoted my life to it, and I was thinking, I'm not going to be able to do this anymore. That was the scary bit.
Sally-Anne: 00:15:00 Oh my goodness.
Ian: 00:15:01 That I'm not going to be able to do what I love. I don't know what's the future hold. And it was that was probably 12 months after the cardiac arrest. It was quite funny that I was it's been recounted to me that the doctor said, well, we can fix the plumbing, but we don't know about the brain damage. So they knew they could fix the triple heart bypass. That was almost like the easy bits, but they didn't know whether they could fix the brain.
Ian: 00:15:22 It was just fascinating and it was way it was described. Fix the plumbing. But we're not too certain about the brain.
Sally-Anne: 00:15:28 Oh my goodness. Well, at least they were straightforward with you. And clear. You knew where you stood. I'm imagining a period in that first 12 months where what sounds like to me you were ever present. Fully present, I don't know, but ever present. Living in the present, so to speak. Not quite remembering the past, or at least only parts of it, and therefore no anxiety or worry about the future as you were describing being in a five year old inhabiting a five year old mind. I couldn't help for just a second, feeling slightly envious of that. And that might sound odd, but that's what I noticed in that moment. And then things changed. So you got to a .12 months in where you thought, well, maybe this is where I'm going to get to. And a little bit of fear. Yeah. Oh my God, am I going to be able to continue this thing that I've done for 20 years that I love? Fear of not being able to.
Sally-Anne: 00:16:23 So what did you do? How did you respond to that?
Ian: 00:16:27 Well, I was quite a scary time when I was in hospital. I really wasn't aware of what was going on. And I remember the last hospital bed I occupied. It was almost like I gradually came, became more aware of what was happening. And I don't know whether that was my brain was making connections and getting better or the medication had reduced. And so I was aware of what was going on. But over time, I became more conscious, more aware of what was happening around me. So it did take a long time for that final realization that I may not be able to do this. I'm not going to be able to go back and do things as I used to. And there was a bit of panic because it was something. Coaching had changed my life when I was coached 20 odd years ago, and I devoted my life to this wonderful thing and this realization that, hang on a minute, I might not be able to do that.
Ian: 00:17:18 That was really quite scary. But then it was it was almost like, okay, well, what can I do? What can I do? How can I do it? And it was that sort of adaptation that I can do it, but I can do I have to do it differently? So I can't do things as I used to. I can't do anything as I used to, but I can still do things. And it's that realization. So it's that acknowledgement and that acceptance. So I suppose it starts off with I was in denial, and I still am in a little bit of denial that this didn't really happen to me. But there is that bit of me that I do. I still do deny it a little bit, but I have accepted other elements of it. So it was a bit of a dichotomy there, a bit of a paradox. But anyway, the bits that I have accepted, it's just accept and acknowledge that I can't do it now. There's nothing I can do.
Ian: 00:18:11 So it's work with what I've got. And it is that recognition that strengths change, I guess. What a strength that I had in the past is no longer with me, but I can adapt and I can take different approaches. So I can still, I still do coach. I still get some great feedback. And it's almost like, as you say, this, this living in the present. I suppose before my illness, I did used to think about the past, and I always used to think about the future, trying to plan and solve all the problems that could possibly be. But it's quite freeing now having to live in the present, because I can't remember the past and I can't remember what's coming in the future. I don't I can't remember what my schedule is. I don't know what we're doing at the weekend. I don't even know what I'm doing this evening. But that's quite freeing in a way that I've just got to live in the moment. And that's something I didn't used to do.
Ian: 00:19:11 It was always worrying about what had just happened or worrying about what I was about to do. Or so I'm sort of free of that now, and that's quite joyful.
Sally-Anne: 00:19:21 Well, indeed. Isn't Joy all about being present? Yeah. Isn't other stuff in the way of that I don't know. When you're working with someone it say I come to you and I say Ian, you know I need help with this thing. So we're in a conversation coaching conversation I'm, you know sharing with you what I need describing a thing. And you're conscious that what I just said a minute ago you may not be able to hold.
Ian: 00:19:47 Yeah.
Sally-Anne: 00:19:48 So how are you going to respond to me? I'm. You know, I'm probably describing a thing, right? Most people do that. How do you work with this now?
Ian: 00:19:57 Yeah, it's that difference. So I, I might not be able to make connections and recall. So the coaching conversation may move on. And there may be something that comes up ten minutes later.
Ian: 00:20:13 And I might not make the connection to what you said previously of what's the juxtaposition? What's the association? I might not be able to do that as I was able to do in the past. So it's almost like in the moment. In the moment, if you say something, I might just immediately reflect back the word for you to contemplate. But I can't necessarily make the connection right between what you said ten minutes ago. Okay. So it's just different. It's just different.
Sally-Anne: 00:20:47 I'm just wondering, Ian slightly misrepresented just now what I'd understood. So thank you for clarifying that. And also in a way, I wonder I mean, sensemaking is part of what a coach does. It can be immensely helpful, content to bring to light something that perhaps the client can't see or hear for themselves. So that yeah, the sense making is a helpful thing. And I wonder, is it, you know, sometimes just the present moment reflection of the word that the client has chosen can quite possibly be even more powerful and let the sensemaking happen within them.
Ian: 00:21:23 Absolutely.
Sally-Anne: 00:21:24 You've almost let go of that sort of, yeah, need to do that for them, so to speak. I mean, it's very interesting, you know, as a coach myself listening to this. So you're very present. You're reflecting back what you hear in the moment and. Yeah. Is it possible for you to remember the difference between what you used to do and what you do now. I mean are you able to kind of I mean would you mind sharing that.
Ian: 00:21:47 Well that's difficult to know because I can't remember, but yeah. Yeah, I just know it's very different. I'm not able to retain and make those connections. I could either say, I can't do this any longer or I adapt and I have adapted. But what's interesting as well, I think I've adapted my sense of responsibility, but I don't feel responsible for helping the clients Achieve whatever they state they want to achieve it for me, just to create the space for them to achieve it for themselves. So I do no more.
Ian: 00:22:27 And it's almost like the power of just listening and let the person coach themselves, just speaking the words and hearing the words that they're saying for themselves, they're almost coaching themselves and just summarizing, reflecting back, asking the question in that moment. It helps them contemplate what they've just said and helps them find their own way forward. So it is that sense of responsibility that has changed. I think that's the key thing here, that the client is responsible for their own development and change and coaching. It's almost like I'm just there to enable them to do it for themselves.
Sally-Anne: 00:23:06 Fantastic. It sounds wonderfully freeing, actually, in every respect.
Ian: 00:23:11 I think I enjoy coaching more now than I used to. And that maybe is that sense of freeing and freedom.
Sally-Anne: 00:23:21 Amazing.
Ian: 00:23:22 Because of that change of responsibility?
Sally-Anne: 00:23:24 Yes. And you're still teaching, is that right? As well as coaching?
Ian: 00:23:30 Yeah. So I teach post-graduate coaching courses at Warwick University. So postgraduate certificate diploma for masters. So it's high level stuff. But it's almost like I did at the beginning of this discussion.
Ian: 00:23:44 Describe it as teaching. But I don't like that word because I tried to take a coaching approach. One of the things I do remember is my coach, who coached me 25 years ago, and again, things that happened before my cardiac arrest. I tend to remember things that happen since I don't. So my wise coach, who became a friend and a mentor, he always used to say, when in doubt, coach. So he said that to me before my memory was wiped with the cardiac arrest and the brain damage. That is one of the things that I can remember, because I reflected on that so much at the time. At the time, I didn't really understand it, but then it became, oh, wow, that's profound. Whenever I'm in debt, I go to coaching schools. So when I'm running the workshop for the coaching course participants, I always go to coaching skills and things that I've done for 25 years. And it's almost like because I've retained the muscle memory, as it were, of how to do that, and I've adapted to do it differently.
Ian: 00:24:48 It's okay, because it's not a stand up lecture where I have to retain information, theories and practice and all this sort of stuff so I don't have to use my memory. I can just do it as a group coaching approach. Wonderful. And so when I'm in doubt, I go to coaching. And that's what I do with the coaching participants in the workshops.
Sally-Anne: 00:25:09 It seems to me that you're speaking to the very essence of coaching, you know, being present with what is happening in the moment.
Ian: 00:25:16 Yeah, and that's what I hope. I hope to role model to the participants, the course participants. And in a way, I'm again, as you described it, one of the gifts that this has given me is the ability to do that, because I don't think I would do that as much as I currently am. I've got no choice. And I suppose that's one of the things I've got no choice to be as I am. And I'm wondering if people do have a choice. How can they be more present?
Sally-Anne: 00:25:45 Oh my goodness.
Ian: 00:25:47 So they choose to be more present and not worrying about the past, not anxious about the future, but they choose to be in the presence now. I've had that forced on me, and sometimes I get frustrated because my wife and I, we like going to theatres and we like to go to out for days and days out and stuff like that. And I often say to her, I'm frustrated because I can't remember him, I can't remember the theatre theater trip. I can't remember the day out. I had a wonderful time while I was there, but two days later I remember it. So I said, well, what's the point? Why bother? But the point is, I have a wonderful time. Yes, while I'm there in that moment, and I suppose that's the key thing it's recognizing in the moment. There is joy about being present and doing a wonderful thing.
Sally-Anne: 00:26:37 And the emotional memory is in the experience, not the detail.
Ian: 00:26:43 Yes.
Sally-Anne: 00:26:44 You're remembering. It was wonderful. That's what I heard.
Sally-Anne: 00:26:47 Is that.
Ian: 00:26:47 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I get that joyful feeling. It's almost like the feeling stays with me. But the detail of maybe the show that we went to see or where did we go from the day out, I can't remember, but yeah, that feeling of joyfulness is there.
Sally-Anne: 00:27:04 I'm curious if I may just pursue a line of thought that came to me is, you know, there's one way of reactivating a positive emotion in the moment is to conjure a memory. You know, bring it back, feel it, relive it, and so on. And, you know, it can be very helpful physiologically to do that. What you're doing is bringing the feeling without any of the sort of information, so to speak, with it. But you can bring that feeling back. Is that what I'm hearing?
Ian: 00:27:32 Yes. And the joy of mobile phones with cameras. I might not remember, but what I find myself doing is flicking back through my photographs. And so I try to use tools that are available and that sort of thing.
Ian: 00:27:48 You have a mobile phone and looking back at the photographs and thinking, oh yeah, nice. That was nice. I can't remember the detail. I really can't. I might look at the photograph, but I've got no recollection of being there. Gosh. But yeah, it does sort of if I'm standing in a photograph with my wife when we're both smiling and laughing and it looks like we're having a nice time, and clearly the memory is a positive one. So it's almost like taking what I can.
Sally-Anne: 00:28:10 Yeah.
Ian: 00:28:11 And using that to reinforce or to substitute for the memory may be.
Sally-Anne: 00:28:16 Yes, taking what I can, doing what I can, adapting and talk about surviving, you know, what's it like to come back from the dead? You've done more than survive. You are thriving, Ian. I mean, tell us a bit more about your life today and how you're living it to the full, it seems to me.
Ian: 00:28:35 Yeah, it's funny when you say that again. That doesn't seem real.
Ian: 00:28:41 Thriving and living life to the full. It doesn't seem quite real, I suppose. I'm grateful. Every, in my calendar, I have an annual calendar and it flags up an event of anniversary of cardiac arrest and anniversary of triple heart bypass. So again, I don't have to rely on the memory. The calendar reminds me every year, so it's almost like when those things pop up, it reminds me. So I still coach. I've gone back to coaching people. I run the coaching courses at Warwick and I've been getting some fantastic, humbling feedback. At the end of a workshop last year, the course participants and I were in tears because it had been so meaningful and that was wow, that was quite huge. I've always liked physical activity. I go to see my personal trainer every week and I just find that incredibly. That's a great stress reliever for me and it helps. One of the things I'm not good at is coordination. So some of the exercises we do help with my coordination. There are sort of the physical fitness exercises, but there are coordination exercises that we do as well.
Ian: 00:29:52 So it's yeah it's trying to maximise that. And I suppose last year was an incredibly busy time at work, and I think I neglected my wellbeing a bit. And so it's been a reminder this year with my wife that we'll go out for more walks during the day so I don't sit in front of the computer surface was certainly dry. A beautiful sunny day like today. We'll just go for a walk and there's lots of nice places around where we live. We'll just go and be together and just have walks. So it is almost like the small joys of life and yeah, just trying to do what I can and taking pleasure in what I can do.
Sally-Anne: 00:30:31 Yeah, I use that word thrive loosely, didn't I? I suppose what I was basing that on was what I can see from your, if I can say, output, if I may put it that way, you know, the things that you're doing that I'm aware of. Like for example writing another book.
Ian: 00:30:49 Yes.
Sally-Anne: 00:30:50 It's not a small thing to do.
Sally-Anne: 00:30:53 So what was that all about.
Ian: 00:30:54 Well that yeah that's an interesting thing. You say that I wrote Challenging Coaching as a co-author 13 years ago, and that did very well. It was very popular, but it was 13 years ago. I've written contributed some chapters to other coaching books, but I'd never done a full book by myself. And it was almost like, well, can I do it? Can I do it? so I've recovered. Well, I am recovering. I haven't recovered, so I'm not as I was, but I am recovering to a place where I'm nearly back to where I was before my illness. But I suppose writing a book was the last symbol that I am able to do stuff that I previously was able to do. And so I wrote The Coaching Leader, and that was published this year.
Sally-Anne: 00:31:52 Congratulations.
Ian: 00:31:54 Thank you. Thank you. And that was an enormous, enormous effort. It was an enormous effort because it was the emotional connection that it was this symbol of I'm back or nearly back to where I was before my cardiac arrest.
Ian: 00:32:15 For anybody that writes a book. I'm sure it has a pretty significant feeling to them of a sense of achievement. But this one was sort of even more weighted. I suppose that to a certain extent, that weight put pressure on me, that I needed to get it right and I needed to do well. So it had a double weight that was quite heavy to bear, and it did become quite an owner as process towards the end. Yeah, I'm proud of achieving this and it was only published a couple of months ago and it seems to be positively received, which is very good, but it's almost like, yeah, that's the final, final symbol that I'm back to where I was, or as close as I'm likely to be to where I was.
Sally-Anne: 00:32:58 Yeah. So proof and proving to yourself, proving to everyone else a bit of Yeah.
Ian: 00:33:08 Absolutely, absolutely. And I think it's because I don't know whether I needed to prove to other people to a certain extent, because, again, one of the things about having hypoxic brain damage and a cardiac arrest, there's no visible symbol of it.
Ian: 00:33:22 I don't walk around with my shirt unbuttoned. So really, it's my scarf. No, no, no. And you can't see brain damage. It's hidden. It's all hidden. So to everybody I look, I look normal, so nobody would know. And I sound normal. Yeah. I might, I might stumble over my words. I might forget what I want to say. There might be pauses where I'm trying to catch up with what I'm thinking. But most of the time it doesn't seem to be obvious. But I know it's. I know it's this. So this outward symbol of what I've been through isn't isn't obvious to people. So it's almost like I wasn't trying to prove it to others. I was trying to prove it to myself that I can I can do what I did before. So I think that's the thing. That's the that's the weight of being able to demonstrate to myself that I could do it.
Sally-Anne: 00:34:14 Well, doubly doubly Tripoli and the rest. Congratulations on doing that huge feat.
Ian: 00:34:22 Thank you very much.
Sally-Anne: 00:34:23 And tell us a bit about why this title, why this subject, why it matters to you, and what you wanted to bring to the writing of this?
Ian: 00:34:34 Yeah, it was again, it had been something I'd been thinking about for a while, and it was. So I wrote, oh, co-author Challenging Coaching 13 years ago. That was basically saying that maybe the coaching profession isn't as good as it should be. And then I was thinking about the state of leadership. So I've been working in leadership development and as a leadership coach for many, many years. And maybe leadership isn't as good as what it is, what it should be. Again, that was an example of me stumbling over my words and saying the wrong thing. But leadership isn't as good as it is it should be, and it can't address the issues that we're currently facing. And it seems that the world, the world is getting into a scary place, I think. And we've got a lot of polarity and we've got a lot of difference.
Ian: 00:35:21 And the pace of change is is growing ever faster. And I think the role of leadership is just becoming incredibly difficult and more difficult than it ever has been. And there's just so many leadership books and so many leadership theories. But on the news, we're still reading and hearing about toxic cultures, bullying bosses, increased mental illness, significant levels of absence. After Covid, there was the great resignation because people just didn't they didn't want to do things as they used to. And so something in our organizations was not working, despite the fact that we had thousands and thousands of leadership books and theories and it just wasn't working. So I started to think about, well, what would it be like if leaders took a coaching approach when they're leading others? So they coached individuals and they coached their teams, and they sought to, as the word you used, thrive, help them thrive within an organization. And it was this notion that in the Vuca world, volatile and certain, complex and ambiguous, ambiguous, this Vuca world that we're living in, that's gets more and more complicated and difficult.
Ian: 00:36:42 One person can't have the answers, and it's almost like the technical knowledge, the experience of a leader becomes outdated so quickly that they can't. They can't be the leader leading from the front in a sort of a historic way, because they don't know about the latest market changes. They don't know about the latest technology. They don't understand the global economic pressures, but there are people in their organization that do because they're specialists, but they might be hidden in the hierarchy lower or different places in the hierarchy. But it's about how can a leader engage people, seek out these hidden experts and take a coaching approach so they don't have to find the answer, but they have to engage with others? Yes. So they have to ask questions, they have to listen, and they have to be willing to be influenced. And that might not be the model of leadership that people are familiar with. You know, most people start in their career being a technical expert of some, some form. So they might take a university degree, they might take professional qualifications.
Ian: 00:37:51 They are promoted because they can do things quickly. They know the answer. They get things done fast, they get promoted and rewarded. But that comes to a point where that's no longer effective. You've got to work with experts and you won't have the information yourself. So you've got to ask questions, you've got to listen. You've got to really listen. Willing to be influenced by others. And it's almost like the mindset of a coaching leader, somebody that takes a coaching approach is to be humble, to say, I don't know the answers, but I can find out. Yes, by asking people around me, as long as I listen and I'm willing to be influenced. It's almost like changing the the stereotype, the model of leadership. And we've known this for many, many years, but it doesn't seem to have happened. It doesn't seem to have filtered down. We still hear news stories about people being monitored and people being after lockdown. Organizations demanding people return to their office, and in call centres, keystrokes are monitored and toilet breaks are monitored and all that sort of thing.
Ian: 00:38:54 Oh gosh, we're still back. In the olden days, we still haven't learned to trust people that people are here because they want to make a difference.
Sally-Anne: 00:39:06 Yes, people are here because they want to make a difference. Of course they do. And recognized everything changes, doesn't it? Yeah. And not to forget that leadership is about people. It's also about getting stuff done, of course, but it's getting it done with people.
Ian: 00:39:24 Yes.
Sally-Anne: 00:39:25 Otherwise it's not leadership, it's something else. So this sounds very valuable, Ian. And a real kind of magnum opus, if I may say so, from in all the different ways, particularly for you personally. So as a few months ago now. So at the time of releasing this podcast, it will have been out there for a few months. And is this your last book, do you think?
Ian: 00:39:51 Well it is. Again, it's never say never. Yeah. I'm curious about what will be next. I haven't got a plan again. I can't plan because I can't remember.
Ian: 00:40:00 It's like having a shopping list. I write down a shopping list, and then I go to the supermarket and forget I've written a shopping list so I can't have a plan. So I don't know what the future will hold in terms of what's next, but I still want to make a contribution. I still want to change the world and make a positive impact. If if, you know, dropping a pebble into a pond and hopefully the rippling water radiates outwards and it makes a difference somehow. So I would still like to make a change through coaching and make a change to improve leadership and make a societal change. So we don't have the polarity that we've got at the moment. We try and make the world a more harmonious place, but I don't know what that will be yet, but I hope I can still make a contribution. I still want to make a contribution, but I don't know what it looks like at the moment.
Sally-Anne: 00:40:55 No, but you're moving forward with that intention. And as you do that.
Sally-Anne: 00:41:00 And what does Fearless Forward mean to you?
Ian: 00:41:04 Yeah, it's a really interesting statement, but it's true because again, I suppose before my cardiac arrest and brain damage, I was quite fearful that I would worry about the past and I would be anxious about the future, so I would be quite fearful. So being fearless again, that's quite a joyful prospect of living in the moment. And that's quite nice. And that's almost like being unrestrained by a fear of the future. So that fearless future is quite an exciting way to be, just to go and just be curious and just explore. I think that's quite refreshing, that sense of I don't have to be fearful any longer. I can just go and explore and see what happens. And that's quite I'm not held back or constrained by the past, and I can just experiment. Just try. So it's almost like that fearless forward is almost like that freedom to go forward without constraints. Yeah. And just be curious about what will happen because something will happen.
Sally-Anne: 00:42:19 Yeah. Thank you so much for this conversation.
Ian: 00:42:22 Thank you. Celia. It was lovely.
Sally-Anne: 00:42:27 Rather than regretting what's no longer possible. Ian is making the most of what is. The past no longer worries him. And the future holds no fear. He's finding joy and freedom in the present. But it's more than that. Ian has no choice but to be present. And his authentic presence has also become perhaps his greatest gift. And because he's fully present and simply listening what his clients are saying in the moment without trying to make sense of it. They're gaining the space. They need to find their own answers. In other words, he's unlocking the expertise already in the room. And that, Ian says, is actually what the leader's job is all about. So I leave you with this question. Where in your life and work could you step back? Listen and trust the people closest to the work to take the best next step. Thank you for listening. Fearless forward is edited and produced by Mark Steadman.
Sally-Anne: 00:43:32 I'll be back with you in two weeks for our next conversation about how leaders have faced their fears. To be sure of catching it, go to Fearless Forward. Org or subscribe to my weekly bulletin at Skillful Leaders.