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Meet the Key Players in Your Divorce
In this seventh installment of the "Your Divorce Case" series on How to Split a Toaster, Seth and Pete dive into the various court personnel and professionals you might encounter during your divorce proceedings. From judges to forensic accountants, they break down the roles and responsibilities of each key player, helping you navigate the complex world of divorce court with greater ease and understanding.
Throughout the episode, Seth and Pete discuss a wide range of court personnel, including trial judges, appellate judges, judicial assistants, bailiffs, court reporters, and clerks of the court. They also explore the roles of professionals outside the courtroom, such as divorce attorneys, paralegals, forensic accountants, guardians ad litem, mediators, and more. By understanding the function of each individual, you'll be better prepared to work with them effectively throughout your case.
Questions we answer in this episode:
- Who are the key players in a divorce case, both inside and outside the courtroom?
- What roles do court personnel and professionals play in the divorce process?
- How can understanding these roles help you navigate your divorce more effectively?
Key Takeaways:
- Familiarize yourself with the various court personnel and professionals involved in your case.
- Understand the responsibilities of each key player to work with them more effectively.
- Respect and be courteous to all individuals involved, as their actions can impact your case.
As part of the "Your Divorce Case" series, this episode is a must-listen for anyone going through a divorce or considering one. By gaining a clear understanding of the key players in your case, you'll be empowered to make informed decisions and work more productively with your legal team. Seth and Pete's insights will help you feel more confident and prepared as you navigate this challenging process.
Links & Notes
- Schedule a consult with Seth
- Got a question you want to ask on the show? Click here!
- (00:00) - Welcome to How to Split a Toaster
- (00:26) - Court Personnel
- (02:23) - Pop Quiz
- (09:11) - Appellate Judge
- (12:21) - Trial Judge
- (13:01) - Judicial Assistant
- (13:35) - Bailiff
- (14:55) - Court Reporter
- (15:49) - Paralegals, Legal Assistant, Scheduler, Clerk of the Court
- (17:12) - Mediation
- (21:39) - Forensic Accountant
- (24:49) - Corporate Counsel
- (26:20) - Social Investigator
- (27:24) - General Magistrate
- (29:47) - Lawyers
- (31:29) - Other Roles
- (36:41) - Wrap Up
Creators & Guests
Host
Host
What is How to Split a Toaster: A Divorce Podcast About Saving Your Relationships?
Seth Nelson is a Tampa based family lawyer known for devising creative solutions to difficult problems. In How to Split a Toaster, Nelson and co-host Pete Wright take on the challenge of divorce with a central objective — saving your most important relationships with your family, your former spouse, and yourself.
Pete Wright:
Welcome to How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships from TruStory FM. Today, new Toaster, who this?
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to the show everybody. I'm Seth Nelson. As always, I'm here with my good friend, Pete Wright. We're taking you back to court with who's who of the people who you might meet in the courthouse, on Zoom, and beyond.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Yeah. It's very exciting. And I believe last week was an unprecedented week because I gave you a pop quiz about our motions.
Seth Nelson:
Yep.
Pete Wright:
You did great.
Seth Nelson:
If I recall correctly, I did quite well on that quiz.
Pete Wright:
You did great. And so, I feel like we're in a turnabout, questionable play kind of an area today.
Seth Nelson:
Well, here's the thing, Pete, as you know, you're talking to a lawyer.
Pete Wright:
I've been told.
Seth Nelson:
So, I mean, you haven't seen my bar license.
Pete Wright:
No. Evidence is outstanding.
Seth Nelson:
Exactly. And that's why we're talking about the courtroom today. But I prepared a pop quiz for you. Because I thought two can play at this game.
Pete Wright:
Excellent.
Seth Nelson:
I actually think you're going to do well with this pop quiz and here's why. And I always hated this. By the way, I just did what my dad did when we would work on my spelling words like, "Oh, this is an easy one." It's like now you're going to spell it wrong, right?
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
So, the reason why I think you're going to do well on this pop quiz is the question is how many court personnel and other professionals can you name that might be involved in your case? That's the question. How many court personnel and other professionals can you name that might be involved in your case? And the reason why I think you're going to do well is we have talked about every single one of these on the Toaster.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. That's not a great measure. If you were betting, I would tell you not to actually count on that. So, it's not great. This is not great. So, how would you, you'd like me ... Well, the quiz, let me just restate the quiz because you're an attorney.
Seth Nelson:
Okay.
Pete Wright:
How many court personnel can I name? The answer is 15.
Seth Nelson:
And other professionals can you name? Okay. Good job.
Pete Wright:
All I'm telling you is 15 and you didn't ask me to do the list, Seth.
Seth Nelson:
No. I understand. That's the second part of the question.
Pete Wright:
Oh, I see.
Seth Nelson:
That's the part I didn't tell you. Okay.
Pete Wright:
Oh, great.
Seth Nelson:
Now, you've just made up this number of 15. Okay. You're not going to be allowed to say the therapy dog law.
Pete Wright:
That was my number one.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. That doesn't count. That would be a wrong answer. Okay.
Pete Wright:
Okay. All right. So, I'll start with, does your divorce attorney count?
Seth Nelson:
Yes. Yes.
Pete Wright:
I bet need a pen. I got to make hash marks.
Seth Nelson:
Okay.
Pete Wright:
Good. Divorce attorney, one for Pete.
Seth Nelson:
Good job.
Pete Wright:
The judge.
Seth Nelson:
Judge is good.
Pete Wright:
We've talked to two judges and about judges. Who's the one who comes out and says, "All stand" is that the bailiff? Bailiff?
Seth Nelson:
Bailiff is good.
Pete Wright:
I have to tell you, I don't know what the bailiff does.
Seth Nelson:
I will explain it later. But you're good.
Pete Wright:
The typist, court reporter. The court reporter.
Seth Nelson:
Court reporter. Nice. You're at four.
Pete Wright:
Oh, you know who we talked about having the hardest job in the world? The judge's scheduling person who works with the judge. Does that count?
Seth Nelson:
I'll give it to you. I'll give judicial assistant, JA. Done.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
Being very generous today.
Pete Wright:
Well, you're very kind. Okay. Now, when we're talking about, we set this up that we're talking about people beyond the firm and I thought I was cheating by saying attorney.
Seth Nelson:
No. You're good. Anyone that's involved in your case, really broad.
Pete Wright:
How about, oh, forensic accountant?
Seth Nelson:
Yep. Nice.
Pete Wright:
Okay. How about speaking of, who's the one, your Latin friend, who comes the guardian ad litem? GAL.
Seth Nelson:
The GAL, guardian ad litem?
Pete Wright:
Yeah. I'm doing great so far. You have to say.
Seth Nelson:
You're at seven.
Pete Wright:
Oh, God. It seems like really far from here to 15.
Seth Nelson:
It's eight more. I just help you out.
Pete Wright:
So far. So far. They're not in court, but would you count a mediator?
Seth Nelson:
Yes. I would.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
Look, just from that, you had eight. Now, you only have seven. You've crossed the barrier.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
And that's to your made-up number of 15. I actually have more, but keep going.
Pete Wright:
This is not great.
Seth Nelson:
You're doing great.
Pete Wright:
Okay. All right. There's got to be somebody who takes the checks like a cashier in the court?
Seth Nelson:
There's no cashier. Okay. Technically there is. I'm really going out on a limb on you, clerk of the court. I'll give it to you.
Pete Wright:
Oh, man. They're the cashier. I think they'll be delighted to hear that.
Seth Nelson:
Clerk of the court.
Pete Wright:
Okay. Oh. Oh. You've got what, three of them, your paralegals, they help. Right?
Seth Nelson:
There we go. Paralegals.
Pete Wright:
So, that's 10, right?
Seth Nelson:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
I'm sort of crushing it to get to 10 when I said 15 as a gaff. That's pretty good.
Seth Nelson:
Well, the other thing, I'll just let you know, I'm grading on a bell curve and you're the only one here. I think you're going to be okay.
Pete Wright:
Okay. Okay. So, we have the case. We've talked about the appeals process. So, when I say judge, did you count the next judge, the appeals judge?
Seth Nelson:
Appellate court Judge? I did not. I gave you the judge. I didn't ask you the question, because I didn't want to spark that answer. I was assuming you were counting trial judge, appellate court judge. Well done.
Pete Wright:
Okay. So, then ...
Seth Nelson:
Judge Lucas will be very happy that you remembered him.
Pete Wright:
He will be very happy. Now, on my list, I would now like to say appellate court, judicial assistant, appellate court guarding that [inaudible 00:06:42]. I think that gets me to 15.
Seth Nelson:
No. Wrong. Wrong.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
We're not being that generous.
Pete Wright:
Who's the moderator of somebody who has to deal with our dear friend's sober link? Who is dealing with that? Is there a separate investigator we've talked about who's monitoring that stuff? Or does that come back to the attorney?
Seth Nelson:
That comes back usually to the other parent is usually how that comes back.
Pete Wright:
Okay. So, I would like to say other parent, please.
Seth Nelson:
I'll give you sober link though.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
I'll give you third-party verification to make sure people are doing what they're supposed to do.
Pete Wright:
Well, with that bit of generosity, I'm at 12 and I think I may have run out of steam.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. Let me go through some.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
I'm going to whip through these quickly.
Pete Wright:
All right.
Seth Nelson:
You got judge, then you got appellate judge, you didn't get general magistrate.
Pete Wright:
I thought that was in Britain.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. Okay. So, we're going to talk about what a GM is.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
Then you got judicial assistant.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
Bailiff, you got, court reporter. Paralegal. These were two gimmies that I thought you were going to get, but you didn't really organize them the way that I did.
Pete Wright:
Have we met, really?
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. I know. I know. I know. So, legal assistant you might have at the office and you might have a scheduler.
Pete Wright:
I was trying to hold back on naming firms.
Seth Nelson:
Excuses. Excuses. Okay. Forensic accountant, an appraiser.
Pete Wright:
Oh, no.
Seth Nelson:
And there are all types of appraiser for houses or personal property or artwork. You got guardian ad litem, you got mediator. Social investigator.
Pete Wright:
What do they do?
Seth Nelson:
Mental health professional. We'll talk about it. We'll get to that. Financial planner. We've had those on. Okay. This one was hard. I didn't think you were going to get this one. Corporate counsel.
Pete Wright:
If you're separating businesses.
Seth Nelson:
Yes. Okay.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
I had lawyer down. Okay.
Pete Wright:
I got that first. Right off the dome.
Seth Nelson:
You got lawyer, but you didn't get opposing counsel. I thought that was a gimmick.
Pete Wright:
No.
Seth Nelson:
Okay.
Pete Wright:
We even said opposing counsel several times.
Seth Nelson:
I really thought it would've been funny if you would've forgotten lawyer. Like I was hoping you were. Okay. You got appellate judge, that I did not see, like I said up above. Okay. That was pretty impressive. Even without a bell curve. Solid A.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
Solid A.
Pete Wright:
Thank you. Thank you.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. All right. Now, let's just back up. Okay. And we're going to start at the end of your case. Okay. And then we're going to work backwards from the courtroom down because other things might happen where you get things settled. Okay. So, let's first start with the appellate judge. We don't want to be in front of the appellate court. The appellate court grades the trial judge's papers. So, you're only getting to an appeal is if the judge has made a decision.
So, if you've settled your case and the judge signed off on it, there's nothing to appeal because the judge didn't make any decisions. And the only thing the appellate court does is did the judge at the trial level make a mistake? So, you're only going to get there if there was a motion that was filed and then you went to a trial and maybe the judge denied your motion to continue the case and then you felt like you had your hands tied and you couldn't put on a full case and they should have let you continue it based upon the rules in your local jurisdiction.
So, you try the whole case, you don't like the outcome, you appeal and the appellate court says to the trial court judge, "You tried a great case. You made every decision correct in the trial, but the trial was too soon. You should have let them prepare better."
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
So, it can be a mistake at trial, it can be a mistake in one of those motions that we talked about on how you lead up to trial, it could have been a mistake on a motion in limine that you kept evidence out that should have come in or vice versa, that you shouldn't have heard that evidence and you decided on that. But that was a mistake in law. So, there's a lot of mistakes that judges can make.
And as we know they're overworked. They don't have enough time. Dockets are crazy, long due to no fault of their own. So, appellate court judge, and they're usually in groups of three and sometimes you go to a full bench and you don't want to be there.
Pete Wright:
How many is a full bench? Is that three?
Seth Nelson:
No. Well, you have three in Florida, you go in front of three and in the appellate court in federal court you go in front of three and then it's tiebreaker 2-1 or they all agree. But then you can do what's called en banc where if you don't like the decision that the panel made, you can petition the court to be heard by all members of the court.
Pete Wright:
Oh, man. If I were an appellate court judge and I got that, I might be a little bit peeved.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. Well, you usually, and there's unwritten rules. If you don't agree with the opinion, maybe you don't do en banc. But if it's a big issue, so let's go back all the way to Bush v. Gore.
Pete Wright:
Oh, are we dangling chads?
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. Exactly. I think that might've gone directly en banc, because they knew it was going to be such a big thing. The whole court was going to hear it. Okay. All right. Now, let's back up. We got the trial judge. As we know, the trial judge gets assigned, check your local jurisdiction. But in Florida, in Hillsborough County, these judges rotate in and out of courtrooms so that you might have a family law judge at the beginning of your case. But that judge has been there two and a half years. Your case is gone for six months. The three-year mark hits, it's January, the judge gets transferred to the criminal division and you get a new judge popping right in the middle of your case.
You could have trial set on January 15th, brand new judge, never done family law before. Call your first witness. Let's go. So, making a lot of decisions, lot of discretion. Now, we've talked about how do you get something on the judge's calendar. You've got to talk to the judicial assistant. You've got to clear the calendar. And the goal for today is not to have our listeners memorize these people, but you don't want to be afraid of who are these people.
So, just tag this, come back to it. Listen to this again. Go through the list. Okay. Judicial assistant, you'll probably never see. Sometimes they'll come into the courtroom.
Pete Wright:
Because a judicial assistant, you're working with the firm, right? You're working with a scheduling [inaudible 00:13:32]?
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. A firm is doing the scheduling.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. Then you have the bailiff. Bailiff is the court security officer. Sometimes it's a sheriff's officer that's assigned to a certain courtroom and specific judge. Sometimes they rotate in and out. When you go to court and you're driving to court, you need to be nice to everybody. Bailiffs will see you. Judicial assistants might see you in the hallway. You don't know who they are, but they talk and the judge isn't supposed to consider what they say outside of the courtroom, but they hear stuff about how people act.
So, I tell all my clients, "Right when you get in your car to go to court, you need to pretend that the judge is watching you. That's how you need to behave."
Pete Wright:
Because the judge has eyes everywhere, is what you're saying?
Seth Nelson:
That's right.
Pete Wright:
And would you be rude to Richard Moll? Of course, Richard Moll is the categorical great bailiff. He was the bailiff, right?
Seth Nelson:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
Bull?
Seth Nelson:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Bull.
Seth Nelson:
Big guy.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Big guy.
Seth Nelson:
Bull. I like Bull.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Of course.
Seth Nelson:
So, night court, love it. And let me tell you, I have had clients tell me, "Oh, my God, son, I loved walking down the hall because every bailiff knew you and they walk in and they're joking around with you, just put your clients at ease."
Pete Wright:
But there's a state of familiarity?
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. Exactly. Okay. So, the other person in the courtroom, it might be the court reporter and that's the person who is taking down everything that's said in court. So, the stenographer. You have to order a stenographer. One doesn't come with the courtroom. You have to schedule it. You have to pay for it.
Pete Wright:
Do you ever get one, just a bonus stenographer, just buy one, get one free? It's a BOGO.
Seth Nelson:
Sometimes both sides will order it.
Pete Wright:
There you go.
Seth Nelson:
A problem. All right. That's the courtroom. Now, on this stenographer, it's important to know, and you need to talk to your lawyer about this. If you're going to a big hearing, you need to ask, are we getting a court reporter? Because if you don't have a transcript and you want to argue about it later and grade the judge's papers by going to the appellate court, it's really hard for them to grade when they don't have a transcript of what happened. To get a transcript, you need a court reporter.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
Paralegals, the lifeblood of the firm, they keep everything on track. Now, paralegal, legal assistant and scheduler are all broad terms. So, paralegal will help you get your financial disclosures together, will help you coordinate your documents. Might help the lawyer draft some basic pleadings like notices. A legal assistant might do more scheduling and making sure everything is tracked that's filed in the court with the clerk of the court, who we're going to get to.
If something gets filed in court, it gets filed with the clerk of the court. We want to make sure that we put it into our own system so you're not always going to the clerk. So, in the clerk of the court who you got, you called them the cashier, is who you file your legal documents with. They literally keep the court files. They do a lot of other stuff, but they keep the court files. So, that was really impressive that you got that.
Pete Wright:
It's not impressive. The question is, Seth, would they be impressed that I called them a cashier? And my hunch is no.
Seth Nelson:
They would say that was one of their duties.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
Because when you file you have a filing fee and if you're indigent status, they have to run that by and maybe take filings without a payment. So, I don't think they would be offended. I think they would say it was one of their job duties, but they do a lot more.
Pete Wright:
The defense rests.
Seth Nelson:
Okay.
Pete Wright:
All right.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. Now, we're going to talk about mediation. We have a mediator. A third-party, neutral, we've had on the show before. We might have her again. I got to reach out. So, the one who will not be named does not scold me, Andy. Tami Sbar, one of the best mediators in my view on the planet. So, a mediator is a neutral third-party who will go back and forth from one room to the other. You'll be in one room with your lawyer, the other side will be in the other room with their lawyer and try to get your case settled.
Ultimately, the drafting of marital settlement agreement, which deals with the financial issues or the drafting of the parenting plan that deals with the kid issues is the responsibility of the lawyers. The mediator is the stenographer. Now, really good mediators that work with lawyers might suggest language, but it's not their language. It is the lawyers have to decide. The mediator cannot decide. The mediator is not a decision-maker in any way, shape or form.
You don't have to impress the mediator. You don't have to bring evidence for the mediator. Mediation is all about perception and can your lawyer through the mediator express what your issues are and why you think these issues should be resolved the way that you believe the outcome should be. I'll put quote in your favor and then take that to the lawyer on the other side and say to the lawyer on the other side, "Here's why they believe X, Y and Z."
Even if the lawyer agrees, he has to persuade the client to agree and the client can say, "I don't care. I'm still going to court. I'm going to have a judge tell me."
Pete Wright:
I mean, you're describing a glorious game of telephone tag with many different complicated areas of communication breakdown. Can you just give me a tight 60 seconds on what makes a great mediator to be able to manage this space?
Seth Nelson:
Yes. A great mediator like Tami understands that they need to hear what we're saying and be able to explain it in the other room, understanding how it's going to strike their ear. She doesn't have to say it the same way. If I tell her to say specific words, she's required to say those specific words. I can't control her tone. I can't control her saying, "Look, I'm required to tell you this under the rules. I know you're not going to like it. You're just going to say no. But Seth Nelson wants me to tell you X," like it's just taking the wind out of that cell.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
Right?
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
But really understanding and knowing how to get the case settled and to see through this telephone game where there's areas of potential compromise in settlement. And great mediators will "battle back" with me before they go in the other room, because they work with the lawyer before. They know the lawyer knows the law and they're going to battle back with me.
Now, they're not going to go take their expertise on the stuff. They battle back with me and go to the other side and said, "You should make this argument. Seth didn't have a good answer." That's not what they do. And if the other side never brings it up, Tami doesn't bring it up in the other room. But when you really know the lawyers and you really know the law, a good mediator going to push back on the lawyer in an appropriate way. And that's one of the great things about Tami is not only does she know the law and knows how to look for areas of compromise and how it's going to reach the other side, she knows the lawyers and she can deal with the different personalities.
Pete Wright:
Okay. So, it sounds very much like a great mediator is somebody who can shape a discussion and not just be somebody who passes notes back and forth.
Seth Nelson:
They're not a monkey saying, "Give me 20 grand. No. I want 40. Give me 30. Let's split in the middle." It's much more complicated. And great mediators in family law are a lot harder than personal injury cases. Because personal injury, you start doing these bracket stuff and you're really dealing about how much money. There's one issue. When it's expanded, sometimes it's easier to get things settled. When you've got one issue, sometimes it's harder, but it's difficult.
So, well, if you're preparing for mediation the way that we do, we want to be prepared. So, what do you need to be prepared? You need to have all your financials laid out in understanding how we're going to divide up the assets. What if any alimony there's going to be, what's the child support calculation? And to do that, you might need a forensic accountant.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
And a forensic accountant is a CPA who is going to do a tracing of assets and debts to determine what, if anything, is marital property to be divided and what if anything, is non-marital property to be divided. Now, I'm just starting with the division of assets and debts. Now, ultimately, they can't tell you if it's marital or non-marital. That is a legal conclusion by the judge. And there's legal arguments.
Great forensic accountants have done it so often. They know what the legal arguments are. Because they've been sitting in the room for 10, 15, 20 years. So, they're going to be like, "Well, I didn't find that this account was commingled. It was inherited to the husband. He always kept it in a separate account and that's going to be the evidence." They will not say, "Therefore it is non-marital, because that's a legal conclusion."
Pete Wright:
Sure.
Seth Nelson:
But when they're working with their lawyer, they're going to be like, "Yeah. I put in the non-marital column. I know what you're going to say." They will also do a tracing of there was $100,000 in this account on the date that the divorce was filed, what happened to the money? It's gone. Well, if it was all used to pay taxes and mortgage and they'll trace that, then it's up to the lawyer on whether they can try to recoup that. But we want to know where the money flowed to.
Pete Wright:
So, the financial, this person isn't making any judgments either. This person is serving to unravel the knots and give you the purpose.
Seth Nelson:
They're unraveling the knots. That's right. Now, is there judgment calls within unraveling the knots? Sure. By way of example, let's say you've given them two years' worth of a timeframe. So, you've got January 1st, 2021 forward for two years, but you've only given them 18 bank statements. They got to fill in some holes. There might be some judgment calls filling in those holes.
So, they might do an analysis looking back for two years to figure out where people spent their money. Was anyone hiding money? They're doing an alimony calculation. They might be doing a business valuation and we're going to get to how that ties in with corporate counsel in a minute. So, that's what a forensic accountant is there to do. A lot of people get worried about forensic accountants, because an added expense.
What they don't realize is sometimes it's cheaper for the forensic accountants to do it than have the lawyers do it with their paralegals and then it's better for them to testify. But do you want someone digging around every expenditure that you've made over the last two years, Pete? That doesn't sound like fun.
Pete Wright:
I don't love it. No.
Seth Nelson:
No. So, if they're dealing with a business valuation, they might have to get corporate counsel involved. If people own a closely held business, how is it structured? How are these deals structured? Are you allowed to transfer your interest to your wife even though she's not on this deal? There might be some corporate documents and partnerships that don't allow you to transfer.
So, your wife might be entitled to half the value, but she can't get the actual business entity or the stock that owns the business entity. And those are really usually high-end cases, complex deals that people do. I love those cases. I love working with quality corporate counsel. And it could be land deals, it could be stock options with closely held businesses. It could be stuff where you are tying your money up for two or three years. So, what's the value now? It's hard to determine because you can't get it out. So, there's a lot going on there with corporate counsel.
Pete Wright:
And corporate counsel is going to be a character that you might actually see in those cases in court.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. If there is a business and the business is also being sued as part of the divorce, corporate counsel might show up to represent the business, which now is interesting because there'll be corporate counsel representing the business, then the divorce attorney representing the wife and the wife owns the business and then there's husband's counsel who doesn't own the business, but it's the business is marital property, so there's a little potential conflicts going on here. So, you got to be careful.
Switching to kids' issues. Social investigator. Social investigator might do a mental health testing on the parents, might talk to the kids, might talk to collaterals, third-parties and will come up with a parenting plan on what they think is best. Very similar to a guardian ad litem, but for the fact that a guardian ad litem cannot do mental health testing, that's not their job.
Now, we've talked on this show and check your local jurisdiction that a guardian is not allowed to go into court or put in the report anything that other people tell them. It's called hearsay. There's a specific legal definition of that that we won't get into today. But a social investigator is allowed to use hearsay, because they are deemed an expert where a guardian is not deemed an expert. In Florida, that might change in the future. There's some discussions at some levels to change that rule.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
Talked about a guardian, again, similar, but you have that kind of little rule that's different. Okay. General magistrate, this goes back in the judge column.
Pete Wright:
The one I thought was British.
Seth Nelson:
That's right. GM is their nickname. Just view them as a junior judge. They don't wear robes, but they're there to help. They sometimes deal with just discovery issues. Sometimes they deal with things that the case is over. Final judgment. There's still problems. It's post-judgement. Those might get referred to a general magistrate.
In Florida, you're allowed to have your case heard by a circuit court judge and therefore you can object to the GM on some occasions and then you're back in front of the judge or you can go to the GM. So, just think of them as a junior judge.
Pete Wright:
A junior judge. Because as an attorney, are you scheduling your cases to be heard in front of a GM?
Seth Nelson:
If it gets referred to a GM without objection, then yes. And they're not in a courtroom, they're in a hearing room. It's usually set up where there is a table, a conference table that is T-shaped, and they're sitting at the top of the T, and the parties and the lawyers are facing each other on the long part of the T.
Pete Wright:
And all of the tables are about three inches shorter than the judges' tables?
Seth Nelson:
Well, because they're a junior judge.
Pete Wright:
They're a junior judge.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. And being a short guy myself ...
Pete Wright:
It's fine.
Seth Nelson:
... I prefer being in front of the GM. It's fine. Yeah. I don't have to have my feet dangling.
Pete Wright:
I need another tight 60. What is the path one takes to become a junior judge and is a junior judge a stop on the path to becoming a judge?
Seth Nelson:
You apply. Apply to the circuit court and the judges are the ones that decide whether to hire you or not. Now, you are employed by the county, but they're the ones that fill those positions. People have tried to go from being a GM to being a judge. It's hard because if you want to run, because in Florida it's an elected position being a judge.
At the trial level, if you want to run for judge, you have to resign from being a GM. So, you got to give up your job just to run. Now, if there's an appointment, then the governor can make that appointment and make you a judge. So, that could be a stepping stone. But it's hard. It's hard. And they do a lot of great work, too. Okay. Pete, lawyer, finally we got the lawyer.
Pete Wright:
30 minutes and 5 years later, we're talking about an attorney.
Seth Nelson:
Right. Okay. The good news is you get to pick your lawyer because that's something that you control is the lawyer you choose to work with.
Pete Wright:
From then on out, it's not all yours to control.
Seth Nelson:
That's right. That's right. And you don't get to pick a pose in counsel and you can't do anything about that. So, we deal with the problems that we can solve.
Pete Wright:
Fair enough.
Seth Nelson:
If we have no control over it, we're going to have to keep moving on and that's very frustrating.
Pete Wright:
Do you ever see a situation where couples are having a fairly easy divorce and they go in on it together? They just say, "Okay. He's going to be mine and I know who yours are and you guys work together well and let's just solve this?"
Seth Nelson:
I certainly have had that happen. So, people have said, "Who do you work well with? Who would you recommend? I want this to go well." I said, "When you're saying who do I work well with? I'm going to tell you. I'm going to give you names of very good lawyers. They're going to know the law. I'm not going to pull one over on them," which is fine.
Pete Wright:
Because you don't have a dummy in the wings who's just going to do anything you want them to do?
Seth Nelson:
No. The dummy in the wings is Andy. But he doesn't do everything we want him to do. No. You don't want that because they're not going to know they're going to make the case harder. When you have an aggressive attorney that doesn't know what they're doing, it's the worst counsel to go up against, because everything's a problem. So, yeah, that does happen. Okay. There's one more, one more person that you forgot.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. We went through a long list. I just gave little bullet points because this show's pretty simple today. Here are the people that you might hear about. Here's a little snippet about them.
Pete Wright:
These are the people in your neighborhood.
Seth Nelson:
Can you think of anybody else, Pete? I mean, this one is hitting you in the face. It's so obvious.
Pete Wright:
Is it you, the client?
Seth Nelson:
No.
Pete Wright:
That would've been good though. That would've been poetic.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
It all comes back to looking inside yourself.
Seth Nelson:
I see.
Pete Wright:
I don't know. Who is it?
Seth Nelson:
A podcast host. I mean, come on, Pete.
Pete Wright:
When we get some on the street interviews, just walking out of your court appearance and we'll start doing some interviews.
Seth Nelson:
You can listen to Pete Wright, who's never wrong. I mean, let's just tell it like it is here today.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. This is the empty chair at your table all the time.
Seth Nelson:
If you need a room, we got one for you. America's favorite room.
Pete Wright:
That's it. America's favorite room. I'll take it.
Seth Nelson:
Any questions on any of those?
Pete Wright:
I don't think I have any questions on any of those. I do think I have a couple of questions on some folks that I don't think you mentioned, and I'm very excited to see if you can tell me what they do. And part of this is my pop quiz. And not only do you have to tell me what these people do, you actually have to tell me what the subject is of my pop quiz.
Seth Nelson:
At this point, in the pop quiz I have to tell you this?
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Are you ready?
Seth Nelson:
I'm ready.
Pete Wright:
Family panel, lay magistrate.
Seth Nelson:
I have never heard of that.
Pete Wright:
Interesting.
Seth Nelson:
But I would tell you ... Oh, I see what you're doing. Rubbing the old chin there.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. You see it.
Seth Nelson:
Family panel, lay magistrate. It sounds like a group of at least three because you always have to have a tiebreaker.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
And then it would be dealing with family law cases. In magistrate, sounds like a junior judge, like a general magistrate. So, I would think it is some system somewhere in the world where they want to keep this out court and you're going to some lay people to try to solve these problems.
Pete Wright:
You are a problem-solver. Let me tell you what the actual thing is because I'm going to give you partial credit. These are members of the public who sit as magistrates in the family court hearing both private and public law cases concerning children.
Seth Nelson:
There we go. There we go.
Pete Wright:
Still haven't quite nailed the subject of my pop quiz, so I'm going to give you another one. How about CAFCASS officers?
Seth Nelson:
Oh, I know the subject of your pop quiz.
Pete Wright:
What's that?
Seth Nelson:
Shit. Seth doesn't know.
Pete Wright:
It's slightly more specific than that.
Seth Nelson:
Because that's a very broad topic.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Very broad.
Seth Nelson:
What is this next one?
Pete Wright:
The CAFCASS officer. And I will tell you this, CAFCASS is an acronym.
Seth Nelson:
Well, I figured that. Can I get a spelling of that?
Pete Wright:
C-A-F-C-A-S-S.
Seth Nelson:
No idea.
Pete Wright:
This is an officer of the CAFCASS. And the CAFCASS is the Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service. This is a significant part of the court system. These officers conduct safeguarding checks, check out investigations and assessments and provide reports to the family court.
Seth Nelson:
Check your local jurisdiction.
Pete Wright:
Oh, yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Pete is now in New Zealand, I believe.
Pete Wright:
You're getting close. You're getting very close.
Seth Nelson:
Australia.
Pete Wright:
I'll tell you what I was interested in. I'm going to give it to you because we could belabor this all day. We spoke to a British barrister to talk about the differences between the British and the domestic, the American system. And I was really interested in what are the positions, what are the personnel you're going to run into in a British system and how do they parallel? There are a couple. This CAFCASS officer was an interesting one. The lay magistrate I thought was fascinating. Members of the public to sit in on your divorce case to hear about children.
Seth Nelson:
And the reason for that is as she told us in that episode, judges don't deal with the kid issues. They're like, "You figure it out. You're the parents." That makes sense.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Recorders, one more. Recorders. What would you say is a recorder in the British system? I guarantee you it's not what you think.
Seth Nelson:
A recorder in the British. Well, what I was going to say is I thought it was going to be a court reporter, which is not then based on what you said.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. No. I am tricking you here. A recorder is a part-time judge who can hear both public and private law matters similar to family circuit judges. Those are called recorders.
Seth Nelson:
Recorders.
Pete Wright:
Members of the court, I arrest my case.
Seth Nelson:
Okay.
Pete Wright:
That was great. That was really fun. We learned some things today.
Seth Nelson:
I got to tell you. I think I'm a much more lenient greater than you.
Pete Wright:
I give you 1,000%. You just won. You won the law today. No. You won the law. I'm fine. You're fine. You're fine. You won today. This was wonderful. I really appreciate the insight and I hope that people actually see the puzzle pieces really coming together by now in our seasonal series of your divorce case. These are the people. These are the faces that you may run into and we want you to be familiar with them. We want you to feel like they're part of your team. Even the ones that are hearing your case and making decisions. They're all on the team to dissolve your marriage.
Seth Nelson:
And some you don't have to pay for and some you do.
Pete Wright:
Some you do. Right. That's all for the spreadsheets and the clerk of court. We'll call them that. All right.
Seth Nelson:
The cashier.
Pete Wright:
Keep those questions coming, howtosplitatoaster.com. We'll have another questions episode coming up very, very soon and we look forward to answering your divorce questions. Thanks everybody. On behalf of Seth Nelson, America's favorite divorce attorney, and I'm Pete Wright, America's favorite legal room. And we'll see you next week right here on How to Split a Toaster: A Divorce Podcast About Saving Your Relationships.
Outro:
How to split A Toaster is part of the TruStory FM Podcast Network, produced by Andy Nelson, music by T-Bless and the professionals and DB Studios. Seth Nelson is an attorney with NLG Divorce and Family Law with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, How to Split a Toaster is not intended to, nor is it providing legal advice.
Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of NLG Divorce and Family Law. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.