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The Independence Podcast helps everyday people discover that true freedom isn’t found in self-reliance but in total dependence on Jesus Christ. Each episode blends honest conversation, biblical truth, and practical application to help listeners move beyond emotional devotion toward consistent, daily surrender. Whether you’re new in your faith or longing to grow deeper, you’ll find encouragement to trust God fully, live from His grace, and follow Christ with courage in a world that celebrates independence but neglects dependence on the One who truly sets us free.
Bryan Dunham (00:00)
Have you ever had a moment when you realize that you are running on your own strength again? That you've quietly taken back control from God. Maybe it's in your work, your relationships, your plans, you started out praying and trusting, but somewhere along the way you've just grabbed the wheel again. And today we're talking about self-sufficiency, that subtle mindset that says, I got this, but the truth is scripture paints a very different picture.
God calls us not to independence, but dependence. So welcome to episode five of the Independence Podcast. I'm your host Brian Dunham and today I have the very first guest I have ever had on this podcast. Joining me today is my good friend, Austin Lane. Austin, welcome.
Austin (00:43)
Ryan, thank you for having me. I'm really looking forward to this.
Bryan Dunham (00:46)
Yeah, absolutely, man. Me too. and I have gotten together several times just to, you know, whatever topics of the day are or theological things we like to discuss, either exchange frequent text exchanges or get together for coffee and chop things up. So I thought it only made sense, quite frankly, man, to have you on as the first guest as we go through these various topics of learning how to live in full dependence.
So, you know, would you mind just taking us through Austin to share with the people? Tell the people who is Austin Lane.
Austin (01:14)
Yeah man, so I'll start currently. My vocation is I do wealth management for people I want to firm. I do wealth management for people, but that's been a process of really...
of really stepping out gradually, painfully, slowly in obedience to God to find a fusing between my vocation and my ministry. So I think a lot of people have, and I did for a long time, have an understanding of like, oh, this is what I do 95. This is what I do on Sundays. This is what I do after I was in my family. And so technically I'm a financial planner, but I think the lines of my life have blurred as I have matured and as God's grace has spoken into me.
That's what I do for a living. My wife and I, though, originally from California, we came here 10 years ago. We have four daughters, so a lot of daughters. Probably the most, it's a lot of daughters. I don't know the, they're great. They're very loud. They're loving, but they're, it's a lot of daughters. And yeah, so I've always been in wealth management. I got my degree from San Diego State in finance. Worked with a couple big firms.
But I think, you know, I think in that fusing of seeing how God calls you to different purposes, calls you to be a father, calls you to be a husband, calls you to be a leader of your household potentially. I think all that ultimately points back to trusting God for your provision, not to front run this, but I think all of those things are fused together. So my story is, I think, really just one of just trying to grapple with this time on earth, what God is looking to do with me, my resources.
as much as he allows me to steward. So, I don't know if I really answered your questions or you more specifics, but that is kind of how I view it from.
Bryan Dunham (02:52)
Hey, no, that's
I'm curious about so four daughters. Are you done? Are you going to be trying for a son or as the four daughters enough like
Austin (03:00)
We you know, it's done. Yeah, I'll just leave it and that is it would be a miracle I will have questions for people so now for the law for the law And it's funny my wife stays home and she homeschool is the girl's and so I don't know how She's incredible. I don't know. She does it. I It's a lot of time with little kids the same little kids For is a lot for is a lot of kids
Bryan Dunham (03:04)
Okay.
You know?
Yeah, well.
Yeah. I,
you know, I would love to delve just a little bit more into, where you're at right now.
So Greenwing, would you talk a little bit about, I would love to know if you would tell the people that
Austin (03:37)
Yeah.
Bryan Dunham (03:39)
just that story, but that concept of the vocation slash ministry and the blending of those.
Austin (03:45)
Yes, so straight into this. So I worked for JP Morgan for most of my career and client facing roles was with JP Morgan. With a quick break in the middle at American funds, which is how Brian and I met. just for the viewing audience, if you're curious, that's kind of where that's where our relationship began.
That was with JP Morgan. I was very lucky with JP Morgan. I'm very thankful for the opportunities that they gave me early in my career. That's a whole nother thing. 2019, 2020, my industry is extraordinarily, it is very regulated. It's a lot of, which is, know, that's not a statement of good or bad, but it just is as a statement of fact, it is regulated because you're dealing with people, you're dealing with their money, which makes sense to me.
And I think that every person, every entity, every organization comes to a Rubicon. My favorite example is the Rubicon is this river and Julie sees her in this whole story about how he determined to cross it, but he weighed that decision very heavily.
And he knew the implications of that action as he determined to march onto Rome. But I think every individual needs to consider the Rubicons that they have and not just mindlessly walk across these boundaries that set themselves up for whatever might the future hold. ⁓
Bryan Dunham (04:53)
So I'm going
to pause you just a second because some of the audience is probably going to be like me. I will humbly admit I have heard the phrase crossing the Rubicon so many times in my life, but I don't know the story. Do you know enough about it where you could share it?
Austin (05:05)
I can expand on it, would that be more helpful?
So Rome is one of those things that every kid in America is taught about. It is ancient Greek, ancient Rome. It is ingrained into our fabric. That's democracy and some of our society in Western culture originates from that society. so Rome had a very long history of the Senate, representation, things that we would hold onto as Americans today that we think are important. And in the long story history of Rome, no general had ever marched onto Rome.
considered
an act of defiance against the established structure of how they govern their people, an act against the culture, an act against the people of Rome, that's how it would be interpreted, very specific. Everybody would have known that at the time. The generals don't march their armies into Rome. They serve Rome by marching out and expanding their empire.
And Julius Caesar, the first Caesar, that's why we call Julius Caesar, he was unhappy with Rome. There was a disagreement there and he marched his army down. I believe he was headed south back to Rome.
and he camped on the banks of the Rubicon, the river Rubicon that runs ⁓ in Italy. And he knew that that was the boundary by which generals were able to march their armies. That was crossing the Rubicon was in itself the flare that clarified his intentions about his defiance in Rome. So he camped on a bank and he looked across the Rubicon.
He just thought about the implication that decision of marching his army across would mean. And the trajectory that it's set, mean, human history on is pretty wild because that move, obviously he did in fact march across the Rubicon with his army and challenged Rome to became the first emperor. I mean that...
that intentional act of defiance created a different governing structure of Rome. And I think in many ways actually shows our nature of human beings is that we are always seeking power. We're always seeking control.
⁓ Maybe for good, maybe for bad, but that is something that we desire. that's Julie Caesar gave a great example of what that looked like. Of course, a lot of people are familiar. It didn't work out long-term. Great for him, depending on who you ask. But I think he would say being stabbed however many times in the back by his closest friends was probably not his end goal. But I think in the context of what I'm talking about is I think people...
It's very easy to not consider the weight of these Rubicon-esque decisions that we make in our lives. We just think it's another decision. And I think not, you know, not missing the forest or the trees, really weighing the implication of the decisions that we make is something that has to be much more intentional in our walks as believers and our walks as business owners and our walks as fathers and husbands and wives and whatever.
I just think that building those memorials and kind of laying those Ebeneezers, if you will, really kind of placing and memorializing the way that God is calling us to make decisions. And then being able to look back and the implications and really measure God's faithfulness in those things is so much of the joy of this process.
And if we're not being intentional with our decision making process, first of all, again, we're making passive decisions, but we're also not being able to track and really see God's hand and spirit move through these decisions. And we're asking him to help us, help us be able to make in in in a correct way. Is that, was, that was a little long winded, but that.
Bryan Dunham (08:13)
Yeah. Yeah.
No, that that's that's man. That's great. I will say I'm quite impressed. I, that, I mean, ⁓ obviously that story means something to you. I don't, I don't know either that, or you're just, you should be teaching history at Harvard or something like, because the, didn't prep Austin to share that. Like this is not, we're just having a conversation. So, so crossing the Rubicon though, then is, sounds like a lot of things, but I I'm making a decision here.
And I can't take this back. Like once I cross the Rubicon, there is, these are decisions in which I'm going to have consequences. Some are obvious, some unintended and being able to sit back and consider, all right, here's a decision I'm about to make. And this is going to have some implications that I won't be able to take back. And also again, considering those unintended consequences, I'm just, thank you. It was perfect. It was wonderful. It helped me quite a bit. I'm yeah.
Austin (09:00)
Yeah, a
Bryan Dunham (09:03)
Yeah. Okay. And so as you think about like our topic here today, like taking back control or self-sufficiency, like we have a tendency as human beings to do this. Sometimes I kind of mentioned in the opening that it's you look around and go, I've grabbed the wheel again. Other times, maybe there's a little bit more intention about going, okay, I know how to do this better. I'll handle this on my own or whatever. I'm just curious from your perspective.
Austin (09:06)
Bye.
Bryan Dunham (09:27)
Like as you think about that, any personal stories where you have been somewhat confronted with that or where you recognize, yeah, I did that. There was this moment in time where I did do that and this is why I did either consciously or unconsciously.
Austin (09:40)
I
I don't know this will fit in. I don't know. We'll see how this fit in. My third daughter turned nine yesterday.
Her name is Daphne, she's great. She was born actually a few hours after the Cubs won the World Series. My wife was telling me she was in labor and I was like, not right now, you're not wearing a randallay in game seven of the Cubs Indians World Series? Are you sure? Anyway, that was probably one of the darker periods of my life as it would relate to...
Bryan Dunham (09:51)
wow, all right.
Austin (10:09)
my trusting in God's faithfulness. And what I mean by that is I was in it. I was like, I was in spiral. It's gonna probably sound silly to some, but I had two daughters at that point, obviously. I had just, you know, we had just found out we're pregnant. ⁓ was a surprise pregnancy. And I was excited because I wanted to have a son. I was very, pretty clear with God my whole life that I'm looking forward to a son. And I was like, math has got to catch up here. I'm gonna have a son.
And I didn't need to be told. I was in the ultrasound room. I had two daughters. I knew what I was looking at. I went off the deep end. I was very disobedient to God. I was intentionally being a jerk. mean, everything I could do, I was just outburning from a place of anger because I felt that the trajectory of my life that I had promised to myself that I'd convinced myself was in fact, no, God said that was going to happen.
Bryan Dunham (10:41)
interesting.
Austin (10:55)
that trajectory and the reality were not in lockstep. And I was having a very hard time reconciling those two trajectories and understanding that it is not my plan, it's God's plan. But there was a period there when I was a horrible husband, horrible father, just deeply disengaged and angry. ⁓
Bryan Dunham (11:12)
Hmm. And you late, kind of
lay that at the feet of not having a son or feeling like that's not going to happen.
Austin (11:16)
Yeah, mean,
that is the flash point of that, is just me not having a which again, it probably sounds crazy to people, but you just, do you reconcile these ideas of when your life does not go according to your plan? know? Anyway.
Bryan Dunham (11:29)
Yeah, and you mentioned earlier that you had kind of convinced yourself that this was God's plan. That you would have a son, right? That you had like, somewhere along the line, Austin's plan and God's plan became the same thing.
Austin (11:42)
course yeah I mean I didn't ask God but I look around and everybody else has sons right my dad had a son my uncles have sons I'm looking forward to this this expectation and I think this ties into I think this ties into you you don't know what circumstance you're born into and perhaps you're born for just a moment is this right I guess this Esther I love the book of Esther the story is incredible because it's people who didn't want to have probably didn't want to have to deal with Haman
Bryan Dunham (11:50)
Yeah.
Austin (12:08)
and found themselves having to deal with A-Men. How do you handle those situations? Well, I can sit here, it's 2025. never, I was gonna say I've never been shot at actually. I've never faced real combat in my life. I've never really had my life threatened, right? But is that simply because I was born in 1988 and not 1926? The circumstances of our time on earth are not totally within our control.
I think that speaks to the need for this, this really in this analysis of self-sufficiency versus reliance on God. But I think all of us have this Western cultural idea of this is what we're entitled to and what do do when that doesn't happen? I mean, I don't know your thoughts. I'd be curious what you think on that.
Bryan Dunham (12:46)
Yeah,
yeah, so.
I've got a few thoughts But I do think so what you were talking about earlier, I've seen it in my life. I've seen it other people's lives that I talked to this, this blending of my will and God's will. Like, really we have an idea of how our life is going to map out and you know, dude, we're in America. Like,
It's like, you can have what you want if you work hard enough for it. You can have whatever you want if you're willing to sacrifice for it. That's a pretty common theme. And so if I lay out my goals and the things I want to achieve and I've got a smart plan for that, right? Specific, measurable, actionable, realistic, and time bound, right? If you want to have goals, and I'm not saying there's not some wisdom in that, but this track is here.
If you want it, you can have it. You just have to have a plan to achieve it. And so I then spend time laying out the things I want. And I'm not saying they're bad things. A son, is a son a bad thing? No. Some people can't have kids or haven't been able to. And they went into it thinking, I just want to have a family. I'm all about the children. How come I can't have any? So I think we have this plan we lay out for ourselves. And somewhere along the way, we become
Like in our minds it becomes well this is God's, like God's will for me as long as I'm, it's almost like an exchange. If I'm willing to be God centered in my life then he's going to wind up helping me with my plan,
I'm going to live my life for God and then he is going to bless me with these things over here. And so what kind of happens in our brain is my will is God's will. It's God's will for me. cause he wants me, he wants to give me the desires of my heart. And that's what scripture tells me. And so therefore, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to be this person and I'm going to receive these things. And when those things don't work out, I do anger as a natural byproduct of that. Like,
like sitting around and going, why am I upset about this? And then you start taking it out on other people. it's just interesting how we do that. I think maybe that's a part of why we continue. We have this pull to take control is because this is the plan. Darn it. And it seems to be deviating from the plan. You brought up Hagar, Abraham, and Sarah.
You know, some people may be completely familiar with that story. Some may not, but the concept is just that God has promised Abraham the seed and the land and the Abrahamic covenant. Like he's promised him all these things and that he is going to have a nation that's going to come from him. And Sarah is his wife, but she's barren. She's been unable to have children. And so as they continue to get older, Sarah's looking around and seeing the time ticking away and like, what is like how?
Okay, I get God has promised this to us, but how is that going to happen? And she decides, look, I can't have kids, but you know, my, my handmaid, my servant girl can. Hey, so Abram, why don't you, why don't you sleep with her? Hagar. He does. She gets pregnant. That's Ishmael. and so, you know, God says to them, okay, you met, look,
I'm telling you, you're going to have a child from Sarah Abraham. This was kind of a, you know, shouldn't have done this. I'm still going to bless that child Ishmael, but that is not the child of the promise. And then eventually Sarah does get pregnant. They have Isaac and you know, all that happens. But in that moment, Sarah really is kind of the instigator in saying, okay, let's take the wheel back from God because I don't see how this is working out. So I'm going to.
I'm going to reach over and go, man, let's try to steer it this direction. And Abram goes right along with it. It kind of has echoes of Adam and Eve really, and kind of that way. Abram's like, sleep with Hagar? Well, I got it. mean, if you think I should, I will. ⁓ And it's like, even though that was a God given dream, even though his dreams about that were completely given to him by God, there was still a tendency to go, man, he's dragging his feet here.
Austin (16:18)
Yeah.
Bryan Dunham (16:30)
⁓ and I'm going to reach in and grab it. I, this is a question that is not answered, but that also makes me wonder why.
Was it a long time between contact with God? at what point? Because Abraham has an encounter with God who tells him, like, I think too many times you and I as a proxy, me, I'll just say me, I have sat around at times and thought, man, it would be nice to have Jesus like the disciples had, just following him around all day and saying, hey, do this, do that, and watching the miracles. Like how awesome would that be? But here you have...
Abraham who has this encounter with God who tells him all these amazing things and Still there's still the tendency to go. I Maybe he's taking a nap right now Like because the way it's supposed to work out in my head is is not actually working out. So I'm gonna have to help him along I
Austin (17:20)
the way I think about the Bible overarching is the story of God's promise and faithfulness to us in spite of our inability to be faithful back to him. I think that is kind of one of the main themes of the Bible and I think as modern Christians we focus very much on the New Testament as we should. It's very prescriptive in nature. Do this, do that. This is what this looks like, right?
The Old Testament, think, could, it really should be studied much more because it is, a real example is that you read yourself into, if you're being honest, you read yourself into it. And, you know, sin begets sin. And I think one of the things God is constantly communicating to us is don't view yourself in a spectrum. Measure yourself as a binary question. Where was your heart with this? know, Hagar was around because Abraham had, Abraham lied multiple times about the same thing, about his,
about his wife being his sister. so, have you heard the expression half-truths, whole lies, right? Like, technically, Sarah was his half-sister. I think that's, technically that's true. So when he went down to Egypt and he lied, there's a lot of concern in both cases that the people he lied to and them wanting to make right the dishonor that his lie brought upon them. And so he likely got Hagar from, as a reconciliation, from Egypt.
Bryan Dunham (18:13)
Yeah, right.
Mm-hmm.
Austin (18:34)
given him based on a lie he told. That happens again with Abimelech later in Genesis. But the reason Hagar's even there is because of a lie that he cooked up for self-preservation, for self-sufficiency, because he didn't want to be harmed. And that created the circumstance by which Sarah was able to come up with this plan that...
You know, and it was, these were long periods. I Genesis covers large amounts of time. And so when God comes and says, or Jesus informed comes and says, Hey, this is what we're going to do. You know, I mean, if somebody told me the Cowboys are going to win a super bowl, it's been 30 years. You know I mean? Like, what are we going to, Hey man, do you believe it you don't believe it? Wait on God. And I think we're not, we're just not good at that. Well, we'll figure it out. We'll trust in Jerry Jones. How was that? How was that going? You know, so.
Bryan Dunham (19:18)
Yeah, that one hits close to home. ⁓ Yeah, so I was just thinking back around about a time that I had done this.
Austin (19:21)
Hahaha
Bryan Dunham (19:29)
You know, I've got a pretty lengthy recovery background and there were times that, especially in the recovery process, you know, they're pretty good in AA, about, you know, helping you understand, look, you don't have really so much a drinking problem as you've got a spiritual problem. And every day that you're sober is contingent upon the maintenance of your spiritual condition. Like you have...
That's in the big book. You have a daily reprieve that is contingent upon the maintenance of your spiritual condition. And over time, anytime that I was sober for long periods of time, 18 months, two years, like anytime I started going back to it, it was like, you know, I'm not really an alcoholic. Like I didn't have to wake up pouring a drink. It's like I didn't ever have the shakes like...
I'm not that that's that's that was never me. And sometimes even in the rooms of AA, you meet people that you're like, Whoa, man, that dude is bad. He had it rough, way worse than I did. Maybe that means I'm not like him, you know, so there's that kind of constant whispering tendency to say, you know what, I can go back and I can control this again. I can just, I can do this. ⁓ God in in in effect.
Austin (20:25)
You
Bryan Dunham (20:40)
when you're in that environment in AA, really is a daily leaning into God to help you make it to the bed sober tonight. when you walk away from that, when you say, I'm going to decide to manage my own drinking, you are telling God, I got this. I got this. I got this. You can trust me now. I can do this.
And you know, that's the telltale sign of an alcoholic is once you start drinking, you don't stop until you pass out or blackout. Like, and if anybody's listening, wondering, am I an alcoholic, just go try to have a drink or two and then stop. And if you struggle with, with stopping after one or two, then, then that's something to look into. If you are, you have one, two, three, and you're like, I'm done for the night. All good.
then you probably don't have an issue. That's not for me to diagnose. That's always for you to diagnose. But I would just tell you one of the telltale signs of alcoholic is not, can I be sober for periods of time? Which I did. It's also not, I wake up smelling like booze. It's not that either. is the most significant sign is once you start, there's not a stop.
it was the most humbling experience of my life to have this guy that I had gone to town for his mother's funeral to have to come bail me out of jail the next day. And for whatever reason, and this was not the first time, this was like, there are multiple times when I was invited to spend a few days in the cooler as a result of that activity. But,
For whatever reason, this was finally the time that was like, okay, God, I can't do this. I can't, you can, I think I'll let you. This is a very famous prayer in AA too. I can't, you can, I think I'll let you. that, to me, this is how God has operated in my life when I have tried to take control back from anything, whether conscious or unconscious. The longer I go down that pathway of me trying to run the show, sooner or later I hit a wall. I encounter something.
that is painful or a check or sometimes it's, you know, I've set a massive tire fire and that to me, it almost seems like as I look through the broader scope of my life, those interventions that God has, I'll just use the sobriety example again, like the first time was a mild thing. you know, this thing happened, you shouldn't have done that. Okay, yeah, I need to stop doing that. But then...
that every successive time that God had to get my attention, the consequences were harder and more difficult and longer to work through until this final one, which was finally, okay, I've experienced enough pain now and I'm willing to release this and let you have control of that. And it's been that way ever since, which is great. But I'm curious, like, as you think about your life,
Any situations like that for you where like you have taken control and then God allowed you to suffer a consequence that caused you to realize, ⁓ I can't do this.
Austin (23:22)
like, you know, I like to be liked, right? Like, I think you like to feel.
I think for me, there's a lot of internal introspection, if you will. you know, I was just watching, I'm not a big baseball fan. I do love sports though, so I love the idea of competition. As somebody who loves the of competition, I naturally love the idea of winning. And I feel like the gravitational pull of winning is like, no, I will win. If you get out of the way, I will win, right? I was just watching, I really enjoyed the World Series.
I was listening to one of the Dodger players, name is Kike Hernandez. They were celebrating in a locker room and he was saying, he was giving credit to his teammates. He was saying like, this is like a group project. Like I just showed up with a pencil and I still got an A. It's amazing, you know? And he was giving credit to the teammates that maybe pulled more. And it's funny cause Kike, he got ran over. Like I'm one of the more...
Epic moments of the series. got ran over by the center fielder. So Kike plays left field center fielder ranged over into his territory and ran him over to make the catch, which saved the series for the Dodgers. And he was happy as it could be that he got publicly trucked by his own teammate because all he wanted to do was win, you know? And I think in my life, it took a long time and it still takes a long time for me to be in a place where I understand that like
Winning is not my will be done. In fact, increasingly am suspicious of what my will is in these things because I've seen what results. It's usually selfishness. It's compromising other people's interests for my own and it doesn't end up with greater happiness. so, I mean, it kind of weaves into...
Bryan Dunham (24:37)
Hmm.
Austin (24:52)
the JP Morgan story. was very lucky and they gave me a lot of opportunity. And I just, I take, I'm going to paraphrase, but Jim, Jim Carey, and I'm jumping around a little bit. I apologize, but Jim Carey has a quote that he says, I hope everybody gets as rich and famous as they hope to so they can realize that that's not the answer. And, and that is true. Like I made things, these things are relative, a lot of money, a little money, a lot of happiness, little happiness, relative ideas. But I would say by, by worldly,
standards I was making a lot of money at 32 and 33 years old being a financial advisor at Jade New Oregon and I just I just really was so unhappy I was so unhappy with my inability to just I just felt like this this wasn't it you know this isn't this does not make you a better father does not make you a better husband it just
I'm not operating in a place of happiness. I don't want to be around me. I can't imagine how other people want to feel. And I think that's when God used that to be like, all right, are you ready? Are you ready to give up control and expectation of how you think your career should serve me? And it's pretty wild. It's a pretty wild concept. There's just being like, all right, costume to the win. I'm brushing over a point here that I want to just touch on for a second because a lot of our problems
happened along the way and we didn't notice it. What I mean by that is you need to define what success is from the onset of your journey. And most Americans define success as money, power, fame, whatever. Money in my case.
And so I had reached success as it were by any standard that I could have expected for myself. But again, where's the happiness? And in the midst of this, my brother-in-law, his name was Evan, he passed away in May of 2021 unexpectedly. We were the same age, he was 33 when he passed away. And we went back to his funeral. It was like the first person my age really that I had encountered and tried to think of many others since there's been more, but...
He was like the first big shockwave shot across the bow of like, wait, we're not indestructible. He was a good dude. I mean, he was a good guy. You'd like him. Everybody would like him. If you met him, you'd like a genuine guy. His church, mean, his funeral service was standing room only. ⁓ Hundreds of people were there, right? And the broad swaths of society that were represented among the attendees of his services would tell you that his ability to connect with people and have relationship in a meaningful way.
was if that was a success marker, which I believe it would have been for him, he was the richest man that I knew at that time. And so for me and for you and for listeners, but I guess in this case for me, like I was not having success because I had not defined success appropriately in that.
you know, in the framework that God establishes for us. He doesn't call us to be rich. He doesn't call us to be this or that or have worldly things delivered. He calls us to just be down for Him. That's what He calls us for. And so no matter what the outcome is, am I sold out to contributing to this effort, you know, and knowing that this is God's victory, this is God's, you know, this is God's...
design for us, am I happy with whatever role he has for me in that? That's the question I ask myself all the time.
If the answer is no, I'm not happy because I feel like I should preach more I feel like I should have been included I feel like I should have been considered you are headed down a very dangerous slope of self-praise and Pride that is going to end up with your brokenness because you're going to be unable to have productive relationships with other people and so one of the best moments of my life was God calling me out of his corporate space and starting my firm
And I never felt more at ease about such a wild financial decision of walking away from child remaking hundreds of thousands of dollars into the unknown with wife does it doesn't work and four kids who need you to feed them. but I'd never felt more confident in my life. And I don't know. think everybody will hopefully everybody has experienced that irrational joy and comfort and confidence that God gives you when you know that you are aligned and at the center of his will and what he's calling you to do. But I, even now my business is I've been very lucky again. Like God is I've seen God's faithfulness in this.
But I asked myself today I have an idea of what I'd like green ring wolf management to look like But what does God want it to look like and what if God closes it tomorrow? Am I down for that? There's only one answer right and and I think are we asking ourselves those kind of questions as Christians
Bryan Dunham (29:07)
Yeah.
Yeah, thanks for sharing that Austin. You highlighted something there that I one of the biggest struggles in church, period, in living into dependence on God is our culture. Because what you said, kind of the American dream piece, right? I'm going to have big salary, big house, big car, big family, beautiful wife.
just bang it like that's the kind of life that, that, I can have here. And again, some of those things, like, just don't want it to come across as I'm saying, those are bad things. They're not, but everybody has an organizing center of their life. And having had myself as the organizing center of my life, having had a spouse as the organizing center of my life, having had alcohol as the organizing, like I can tell you that
No matter who you are, there is something that is that your life is revolving around. And there is something that you will prioritize over everything else. Like when you come right down to it, like there's something, you know, if it was this versus that, you're going to choose this and over everything. And when that thing isn't God, it will destroy your life ultimately, like because that thing cannot bear the weight of what you're placing on it to bear.
But culturally, we live in a country that values independence. in the sense of pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You can do this. If you put in the effort, you can have whatever you want. Again, that concept of whatever you want if you sacrifice enough work comes from the very roots of our country. And we pride ourselves in that. And there's very few people in this country, especially
I don't know, maybe I shouldn't say especially men, but I'm a man, so I think of it this way because this like this concept of I don't want to be a dependent. I do not want to be dependent on anyone. I was a dependent at one point on my parents when I was a kid. And we all kind of push away from that. It's like, can't wait to get out of my own. I can't wait to have my freedom of making my own choices and my own decisions.
And really it's almost like our personal declaration of independence. It's like, I'm out, I'm on my own. I've got a job. I can buy my own car. I can afford my own food. You know what I mean? Like there's that there. And some of that is super healthy, but there's the undercurrent of that, that I think does us harm when it comes to our faith, because our faith is doesn't, is not essentially about us.
It's not about what we can achieve. In fact, it's exactly opposite of that. It's what God has achieved for you that you cannot actually get on your own. You can't earn it. It's simply a gift. And it's hard for us to receive handouts. in this culture, It just feels like that culture of independence works against the ideas that Jesus talks about in scripture when it comes to how to actually live out the Christian.
Christian life. Would you agree with that? Does that make sense what I'm saying?
Austin (31:59)
It does and I agree. think it's a hard thing to reconcile because I think about that all the time. It's kind of like a free will predestination. We're not talking about that, I think along those lines, it's hard to reconcile those two ideas. was just talking to people. People ask me all the time, my opinion on financial stuff, like, I want to save. And there's a young man who reached out to me he wanted to chat. He was very informal. It was great. But he used a term I had not been familiar with before.
He was like, I want to save money because I want to be a kingdom financier. I want to, like, I want to know how I can, how I can be better with money. So I can be a kingdom financier and I'm not projecting onto him like his intentions and that, I just want to clarify what I heard him say. Um, just case he listens.
So I was like, think his problem is you want to possess something for yourself. And here's the reality. You can possess nothing in this life for yourself. That's just a stone cold fact. You can temporarily steward something that God gives you, but you will never actually own a thing in life. And that is totally counter-cultural.
to American and it's counterculture to my even the way I vote politically. Like it, those things are opposites and I don't know how that measures together. But what I told them is, look, there's things I can tell you to make you a little more savvy with money for sure. But I would encourage you not to take another step forward in the possession of knowledge and gaining of knowledge around money until you're committed to the idea that you are more concerned with being the man of character that God would use to store his resources.
And until you're committed to being that character, the other stuff is not going to make it better. And once, you know, once you focus on that, God will will what he wills and maybe he'll make you a kingdom financier or maybe he won't, but you need to be satisfied in the reality that both of those are on the table and you should only be concerned with being of character that God is calling you to be. But likely it is my opinion and belief that if you focus on that, he likely then will use you as a
as that resource to bless others. But you're not gonna figure it out after. The order of operations has to be clear there. It's just an important step in understanding the way that we interact with His creation.
Bryan Dunham (34:05)
You said something there that reminded me of, was many, many, many years ago, I was at a conference at Mosaic in California, or in the Manassas Church, and he was teaching, and somebody during the question and answer session had asked him about leadership in the church and the talent that they had around them in LA, and how do you make decisions around leadership, especially with such a young church that's growing so quickly. And he made a comment that I've never forgotten, which was,
You know, he had talked about the church being like a peach, like fuzzy and soft on the outside. You bite into it, it's real juicy and flavorful. But if you try to bite through the core, you're to break your tooth. And like that concept of the core leadership group of the church, he said, we, that's not, just anybody can be in leadership here. We are very rigorous about the character of the people that we will bring on to staff. And the reason for that is
There's a lot of talented people, especially in this town, right there in LA. So especially in this town, there's a lot of talent around here of all types. But the problem is your talent can elevate you to a place that your character can't sustain you. And I was like, wow, I, again, this is 25 years ago and I still remember it today. And when he said it, it spoke to my heart because in the moment I was like, huh, I feel that way. I feel like my character is not fully formed yet.
Austin (35:08)
100%.
Bryan Dunham (35:24)
that I could ever be in any kind of leadership capacity in a church. And I was kind of going that direction that I was sent out there by the church that I was a part of. And so, and we see that across society. I mean, you see that with leaders in all shapes and forms that their talent or their abilities bring them to a place. Ultimately, they have this massive, you know, public fall because their character was not fully formed in a place that could sustain what they'd achieved.
And I feel that way with monetary gain is the same way. I feel like in my career, similar to you, there was a point in my life where I was making so much more money than I ever thought I'd be able to make ever. But it was destroying me. Like it was killing me because of my character wasn't where it needed to be. yeah, it's fascinating because we character is not something that's often talked about.
in our culture as something that's really important. mean, we might say it as a byword or something that's kind of kitschy and sounds good, but if you just look at our leaders across the board, and I'm not specifically talking about any side of the aisle, I would just say across the board, many of our leaders, like I don't know that they're the kind of people that you'd want dating your daughter or whatever, right?
It's an interesting point, that concept of character. And perhaps that's a good place to start thinking about yourself individually. I always say, the specific you that's listening to this right now, not the general you, but the you you that's listening to these words. Probably a good idea to sit back and first start there, where Austin talked about character evaluation. Like whatever my goals are, whatever I'm hoping to achieve.
Like is the character piece there first, especially if you're planning on utilizing whatever the results of that are for God. so I really do, I'm curious your thoughts about the practicality, right? Cause we've talked about how or why we have this kind of innate tendency. And I think you can go all the way back in the Bible to Adam and Eve, right? That first sin of disobedience, right? God says, don't eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
and they do, that really is a sin of independence. It's like, I'm going to decide for myself, God, what is right and good for me to do. In fact, God says, this is forbidden fruit. And if you read that story, after Eve is having this conversation with the serpent, she starts telling herself, it's a delight to the eyes. It's good for food. It's good to make one wise. And it's this concept of, I am going to define for myself what's good. I don't need you to tell me that, God.
Austin (37:41)
Could be, yeah.
Bryan Dunham (37:51)
And so that sin really, that very first one, that is her declaration of independence. I will make these decisions for myself. And so I'm just wondering, now that we've talked around this concept of where it comes from, which kind of feels embedded not only in us as individuals, but doubling down on that embedded in our culture, the concept of independence, practically,
How do I continue to release control to God? What's that look like for you?
Austin (38:21)
think, man, I love Genesis if that hasn't come through yet. I really love the Book of Genesis. I would encourage everybody to read the Book of Genesis very slowly with fresh eyes. That she did do that, that was her choice. The doubt though was where the serpent went with, did God really say that?
Bryan Dunham (38:30)
You
Austin (38:38)
Are you sure that's what you heard? Well, maybe not. Yeah. Let me think, let me think about this. Don't think about it. Like I trust in God, right? Like you trusting in God is the goal here. And there's that song trusting God, right? And there's a, as it goes on, there's a repeated phrase that says I sought the Lord and he heard and he answered. And I love that. So I'll just listen to that part just on repeat all the time. I sought the Lord and he heard and he answered. And I think that that kind of thing is important, but I think the practical, what you
You don't know what the truth is unless you're reading the truth. So like this is basically you read the Bible, right? You gotta read the Bible. You gotta have daily accountability. Hebrew says daily admonish one another. I think so reading the Bible, daily prayer. I think you have to aggressively hunt out.
places in your heart that are not surrendered to God. this is how you do it. You ask the people closest to you, hey, where do I suck? For real. Be real. Like, where do I, where do you see pride? Because it's all gonna come back to pride anyway.
aggressively seek out and eradicate the parts of your heart that are not surrendered to God.
Bryan Dunham (39:36)
Aggressively hunt down. Okay, seek
aggressively seek out and eradicate the parts of your heart that are not surrendered to God. Yeah man that's Austin Lane everyone. Okay continue.
Austin (39:47)
that are not surrendered to God.
And you're thinking, no,
there's not that, but there are. So first deception, if you're thinking it's not that, there is, make sure you keep looking. And here's the best part, it never ends. It never ends. It's like cartoon characters eating a plate of food. It never ends. I would say it's still a plate. That points to the need, the need for relationship. It's essential. You cannot be siloed. You cannot be siloed and you cannot live among.
Bryan Dunham (39:58)
Yeah.
Austin (40:17)
nations and people that are not yours. And to maybe put a bow on my thoughts here, the contrast
in outcome between Lot and Abraham have to do with their their willingness to follow God's commandment. God called them to sojourn in a land that they are strangers in. We are strangers in this land. We are not residents, permanent residents of Earth. We are permanent residents of God's kingdom. And so we are called the sojourn, which is what Abraham is. He's a sojourner constantly living among people and lands that are not yet his. Whereas Lot assimilated to the Sodom culture. And you should read that story again and see how that unfolds with his daughter and his wife.
It's not good because he allowed the assimilation of himself into a culture that is not his You have to live among your people which are Christians you have to continue to love who are not Christians obviously as well and bring them in as God wills, but Yeah
Bryan Dunham (41:03)
Yeah, that's good, man. I love that. Not only the aggressively seeking out the places in your heart, but the need for relationship you pointed out, which is, you know, how many times in your life do you, you can't see something because you're too close to it. You know, like it's that, just that concept of, and being open to that, that's hard. It's hard to have people in your life. It's hard to be, first of all, hard to be that person.
that says, man, I've kind of seen a couple things here, like what's going on here? Or even having that person that you feel comfortable sharing, like some dark stuff. I have a really good friend of mine that I was having a conversation with yesterday and like I was just blown away how comfortable he was sharing some things with me. And I actually questioned myself, would I be comfortable sharing similar things with him? And it's all because his heart...
is in the right, his heart's in the right place. He's like, man, I need somebody to help me look out for these things. These are things I've seen, I've investigated and I've found, and I'm aggressively trying to root out of my life. So I want you to also pray with me about this and help me root it out. in that level of vulnerability is hard to...
execute on not just from a giving from being the one to be vulnerable, but also the one receiving that can be an awkward space. You know what I mean? Like, have you found that? Do you have those kinds of relationships right now that you go, okay, this is, you know, David has this Jonathan, right? Like the people in your life that you go, all right, this person has access, this person has full access, right to my life and
Austin (42:23)
You Yeah.
Great story.
Bryan Dunham (42:38)
every way that they could and has the ability to speak into my life and has the ability to, not just, you know, offer encouragement, but at times rebuke, you know, when that's needed. Like, do you have that? I'm not sure I do.
Austin (42:50)
Yeah.
You can always use more, right? You can always use more. I'm in a couple studies. I was talking to my wife. I've been walking. You know, the last couple years I've had the opportunity to walk through some challenging relational things as a byproduct of my participation in various organizations. That's very vague, maybe intentionally vague, but right now I'm going through one right now.
Bryan Dunham (42:54)
Yeah.
Austin (43:09)
I won't name names. But I think I celebrate like I think we should celebrate depravity. You know what mean? Like, I think first of all, before you can acknowledge some of these things to men, you have to acknowledge these things to God. Like have we acknowledged our depravity to God? In Camps Crusade, did Camps Crusade in college. There's a four point track.
that they ⁓ share. Point one, there is a God created you, he loves you. Point two, you're a sinner. You're a sinner. Point three, Jesus loves you, he sacrificed for you. Point four, you need to make a decision for Christ. That's a very high level basic premise. And I can almost hear the crew staffers like, did it. good enough. Now point two is brushed over and it is to our detriment.
Like there is not a single righteous, not one. Like for you have fallen short the glory.
that you are capable of the very worst that any human being has ever done.
really sit on that for a second. You are capable. you are. You really, really are.
And so it is essential that you are willing to acknowledge the depravity that we are all subject to. That is the beginning. And once you do that, you become unoffendable because,
because if somebody came up, Austin, you're a real jerk. You are correct. You have no idea, in fact, you know?
you realize everything you have and everything you will ever have is God's provision for you and stewardship allowing you to have that opportunity to steward. So I think on a real practical step, you need to lean hard, lean very, very hard into understanding your depravity. I think that is a single greatest thing that Christians will do well to.
to understand. And I think in that depravity is found massive unity and reconciliation with God because you're only acknowledging what he is making plainly clear in the Bible. Again, I said the Bible is this New Testament is prescriptive, Old Testament is examples, but the story is God being faithful to us when we are not. And that is the Old Testament to it constantly, constantly us being told by God like, you're going to do this. No, no, we got this. And then God just looking down, you like you didn't.
Do you remember? just remember I just told you this and then him making a provision and a way for us to be delivered from that and Our ability to exempt ourselves exempt ourselves from that reality is one of the amazing mysteries of humanity. I do it too But I'll probably wrap my rant there, but like it's just people don't fully appreciate their depravity
And so a lot of our conflict and a lot of our inability to connect and have a full relationship is us holding onto expectations that we have not quite surrendered to God.
Bryan Dunham (45:44)
Okay. was thinking about Rachel, my daughter, who's 15
just trying to protect her from the kind of comparison culture that exists out there. Because she already feels bad enough about herself. Just seems baked in.
our youngsters these days are born into this kind of pot of ⁓ achievement, perfection, body image.
whatever, throw it all in there. All the kinds of things that they have to compare themselves versus what they see on a television screen
so then to come over the top and say, you need to really be in touch with your depravity. I wonder about our culture confusing what you mean by that with what they might mean by that. Like Rachel would probably say, I'm putting words in her mouth, I know how deficient I am. Like I'm very in touch with the ways in which I don't measure up. But she's not.
Austin (46:25)
Bye.
Bryan Dunham (46:42)
really using that in the sense that I think you're using it, which is, you know, comparing myself to the, to God.
Austin (46:49)
You
Bryan Dunham (46:49)
Yeah, I'm openly wondering about my daughter who's saved and has a wonderful relationship with the Lord, but her and her friends, they seem to be very in touch with...
ways that they might identify with falling short of an ideal or a goal, but not associating that with God or why they need salvation. I'm not, I don't even, I'm asking a question here. It's just, as you talked about that, it's like, how would I make the connection for someone that doesn't understand some of those theological concepts? Does that make sense?
Austin (47:23)
I think
it does. think it'd take, hopefully I'm representing this well, but I think that one of the reasons I think Jesus was so effective, obviously besides being the son of God, which is certainly good, is communication style.
Bryan Dunham (47:37)
There's that. There's that.
Austin (47:41)
his communication style was always so good because he was constantly asked things. He was constantly questioned about things. And he doesn't really give me any direct answers because he's not trying to give you, he's not trying to, he wants you to understand what he's asking. And so.
Questions are often the best way to communicate back. What do you mean by that? Well, let me give you an example. me get why would you ask me that all those things, you know? And so he I think that points back to I'm not giving you an answer because I'm not trying to emotionally satisfy you in this in this internal conflict and dialogue you're having with yourself I want you to lean further into that and understand that the the center of this all revolves around your intentions in your heart
And the better you understand the intentionality of your heart, the better you understand that your heart is deceptive and is corrupted. And that is what needs replacement. This is not a renovation, it is a replacement. so this...
these things on earth and again a lot of very innocent you know like I wish I was taller I wish I was more thin I wish I was a faster runner whatever okay I mean sure yeah I mean all right sure be great but that's not really that's just our experience here on earth like we're all gonna have different talents and abilities and that's fine but the goal is to surrender all of us are
our ability to communicate, ability to think, our ability to read, our ability to create woodwork or financial plans or whatever, surrender that back to God and allow for him to leverage that in the process of his fulfillment of his purpose. But that really is gonna reach its maximum effectiveness once you realize it like, man, all of my intentions of my heart are self-serving.
And so I think as you're learning things and you're developing, have to, you know, how many times do you have to ask the question why to get to the, you know, to get to the center of it? I feel like there's a study on that. You ask anything seven times, right? Why? Well, why? Well, why? Well, because I want, all right, exactly. You want that's cool. And that's cool, man. Embrace that. I want, I want things. Yeah. Embrace that. Say God, I want, I want money.
Bryan Dunham (49:26)
Yeah.
Austin (49:38)
But more than that, I want you. And I hate where I am more than I'm afraid of where I'm going. And that will spur life change.
I'm not sure that answered. It wasn't a question anyway, I'm just thinking out loud with you, but.
Bryan Dunham (49:50)
Like it? Yeah, no, no. Yeah, it's good. We were talking yesterday, a group of us, what you and I would call the gospel. And the verse in 1 Peter, right, about sharing that, being able to give an answer to anyone who asks you for the hope that is in you with gentleness and reverence. Like being able to...
share why you follow Jesus and almost to a person. It was interesting because like the stories were very personal in this role. you know, I was raised, my story was essentially, kind of got raised in a particular family style that I didn't know which way was up. But I came across a guy at church, happened to be a youth pastor that was like, wow, I mean,
There's things about him that are very different than what I'd ever experienced. And like who, what he cared about, how much he loved, how self-sacrificing he was, like all these things were things that drew me. it's like, I, whatever he's got, I don't know what it is, but I want that thing. and then he said, I just, it's because I know Jesus. And I'm like, all right, well, what does that, I've been in church my whole life, but tell me more what that means to you. It's a relationship. So it's just a relationship and you invite him into a relationship with you. And, and so I just prayed a prayer that he said was the right prayer to pray.
The way I described it is this voice that was outside of me had been outside of me, but I had heard before was now inside of me. And now it's, it's located at a different spot. though it didn't really change my life that much initially. Like I still had myself as the center, like what I was talking about before, like everybody has something at the center of their life. It doesn't matter who you are. doesn't matter what you believe. There's a center. You have an organizing principle of your life. And it's just, it's been certainly been my experience that whatever I tried to put there.
I would destroy it. And I've got a lot of collateral damage in my wake to prove that point without going into it. But I have found that God, Jesus, is the only thing that has been able to, when I put that at the center, that instead of seeing destruction like a hurricane, it's like the reverse of that. It's like now there's health and healing that circles around that, not just for my life.
but the people around me and not that I'm doing anything other than leaning into that. And it's, it is the exact opposite of putting anything else at the center is putting him at the center and just thinking through like how to communicate that in a way. And it could be just that simple, but
Yeah, so coming all the way back around just the self-sufficiency part,
Austin (52:07)
last analogy, big fan of analogies. know, guys lie about their ability to golf. I know this firsthand, I know this secondhand, I know this all the hands. I don't know. Golf is hard. it's also not, perfection is not attainable, which is just a kind of a fun wrinkle in this analogy. But...
Bryan Dunham (52:15)
can't imagine that's true.
Austin (52:23)
Golf is hard. Most people do not break 100. 100 is, I mean, if par is 72, 100, that's not good. I mean, that's not good. That's really, that's not a great score, but most people never end up breaking 100 in their life, right? We all pretend that we do, but we don't. The first step is recording yourself.
play golf, right? Cause like in your mind, your swing looks exactly like Tiger Woods. It's crazy. Like you might, no, I'm doing that. If you should pull the video of Tiger Woods and you watch him swing, like that's what I'm doing. That's what I'm doing. Have a friend record your swing and then hold it up and compare it to Tiger Woods. And it's going to be horrifying. That's the first step of like, uh-oh, there might be room for improvement here. And then if you want to get good at golf, this is the secret. You have to golf with other good golfers. That's it. You cannot golf with bad golfers. You have to golf with good golfers.
because you spend time with good golfers, you will assimilate to good golf. You'll figure that out. So the Bible is that way. You want to better your relationship with Jesus, you got to spend time with Jesus, you got to spend time with people who spend time with Jesus. That's it. And you will in turn start to look more like Jesus, which is the goal. You don't want to look more like Austin. You want to look more like Jesus. And if you think that you want to look like Austin, just know that it's not Austin, it's Jesus. In any example.
And that is it. There's really no secret formula. There's no, you want to be physically healthy, you eat right and you work out. We all know this and yet none of us do it. You want to be spiritually healthy, you read your Bible, you spend time with other people who love Jesus. That's a great place to start.
Bryan Dunham (53:41)
Yeah.
relationships.
people that know Jesus, spending time with those people, this is influencing you in ways that you can't even fully comprehend. And you have to have intention. So that's really more, I guess, where I'm going with this is there, you can either drift through life and you never drift towards health ever. Like health in all of its aspects, spiritually, physically, mentally is done only with intention.
Drifting will take you far away. And so in this particular instance, this idea of wanting to grab control back, there's intention in grabbing control back. So in some ways, like you recognize, okay, I have an intention here, but there are some things that, you know, taking the positive intention is in releasing control, right? In surrender, like it's not about, it's kind of placing control back where it belongs.
instead of taking it for myself. I guess is the ultimate way I think about that. Man, dude, so you talked about aggressively seeking out these areas in your heart and having to have relationships around you to help you do that. These areas in your heart that are not submitted to God or even in fact sinful. You talked about crossing the Rubicon.
Right? Like there are decisions that we make in life. Some of them probably we know are significant. Others we may not recognize are that significant, but there's unintended consequences to everything and really being thoughtful and prayerful. Like, did I pray about this? Is this something that I've even decided to consult God with or am I asking God to get on my agenda here? Or am I on his? That's the language I love using is like, am I asking God to hop onto my agenda? And is that really smart?
considering who God is and who I am and what my past history is with my own agenda. And the cultural aspects of how this is baked into us and who we are, like just having a recognition of that is important, I think, being able to sit back and go, okay, my culture supports this. Every great business book out there supports these ideas, but this is not how it works.
in my relationship with God or spiritually, it cannot be this way if we expect to honor God and have any kind of success when it comes to our spiritual life.
Austin (56:03)
Yeah, I agree with everything you just said, 100%. All right, well, how are you going to set up boundaries for yourself? How are you going to be more intentional?
Bryan Dunham (56:04)
Yeah.
All right, well, listen, everybody, Austin Lane, thank you so much, for joining us here on this episode. Yeah. Yeah, dude, this has been fun. It's been a lot of fun. Thank you, man, me too. This is all kinds of cool. And I'm sure you and I will talk soon. And to those of you listening, grace and peace, my friends.
Austin (56:13)
Thanks for having me, man. I had a really good time. I really appreciate it, Love that you're doing this. Yeah.