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In Search of Catholic School Excellence
Exploring the programs, people, and practices making a difference in Catholic education. Join host Thomas Boles as we hear from principals, teachers, and innovators shaping the future of Catholic schools. Whether you're a leader looking for ideas or an advocate for Catholic education, this show is your guide to what’s working—and why it matters.
Be sure to check out the show notes, as each episode comes with a companion guide to help you implement the ideas discussed during the episodes.
Thomas Boles: Welcome to In Search of Catholic School Excellence, the show where we spotlight the program's, people, and practices making a real difference in Catholic education today.
If you're a school leader striving to build a community of faith, excellence, and innovation, you've come to the right place.
Each episode brings you ideas that are working, stories that inspire and new possibilities for your school's mission.
Let's explore what's working.
And what's possible.
Today we are joined by John Payne of St. Veronica School in South San Francisco, California, and we're discussing different staffing models, including working with Catholic, virtual and online, a content delivery company.
John was faced with having a whole in his staff and looking at the various ways that he could fill that hole, and he was able to.
Work with the families to come up with his plan and he shares a little bit of a story and all these successes.
So let's listen to what John has to say.
Well, thanks for doing this.
The whole idea is we wanna highlight what schools are doing.
That's pretty cool.
So I think it's great that you using Catholic Virtual and so want to give you that opportunity to tell a story.
John Payne: We, we've had a very positive experience with it.
Initially.
An an important step in the process was consulting our parent community and letting them know that I was considering.
Going in this direction and letting them know what it would mean if we did go in this direction.
Thomas Boles: Mm-hmm.
John Payne: And I did that after I had engaged with Catholic Virtual and found out among other things that if we signed on with them,
we would be signing on to have a teacher who had both a bachelor's and a master's degree in the subject area that we wanted taught.
And she also possessed two teaching credentials, specifically a single subject social studies credential and a special education credential.
And so you couldn't ask for a better qualified teacher.
And I also highlighted that signing on with Catholic virtual would mean.
That they would provide an up-to-date curriculum.
Thomas Boles: Mm-hmm.
John Payne: And it just happened that we were in a position of really needing to update our curriculum for social studies in the middle school.
I emphasized that this does not mean that your student's education per se, is going to be online.
Right.
What this does mean is for this one subject area class, they will have online instruction and there will be an aid dedicated to overseeing the behavior and other in-person aspects of the class and to support.
The online instructor in that way in the classroom at all times.
Right.
And that aid in our case was going to be someone who was already an employee of our school.
And had herself gone through online instruction for her bachelor's degree, which just happens to occur during the pandemic shutdown times.
And so she was very familiar herself with how to, how to navigate the student side of engaging in online instruction, and in that way was going to be well suited.
To assisting students to resolve basic tech issues that may get in the way.
Another important part of the process was, of course, was consulting with you to be sure that we had what it takes in terms of our, our onsite equipment to be able to effectively run streaming online offering.
Right.
And so you confirmed with us that our, what we have in terms of our network was sufficient.
We have two internet service providers.
If one network goes down, there's an automatic switch to the other network.
Thomas Boles: Yeah.
So you'd have a failover just in case.
John Payne: Exactly.
A failover.
Yes, exactly right.
And importantly that our Chromebooks were sufficiently up to date.
In order to handle a streaming online class for, at that time, upwards of 31 students when we first implemented that program.
Right.
Thomas Boles: Yeah.
John Payne: And those assessments by you have borne out to be accurate.
We've never run into a situation of, oh, the audio or the and or video is choppy, you know?
Mm-hmm.
It, those aspects of class have been consistently what they need to be in order for students to receive effective instruction.
Catholic virtual.
Part of what they offer is they seek to recruit candidates who are committed to their Catholic faith, and they try to, I think they said to me that their, their faculty.
Are 80% of them possessing a master's degree or more.
Thomas Boles: Mm-hmm.
John Payne: Which is, and in our case, that is the case.
The teacher that we have through them, Ms.
Angove possesses a master's degree.
Thomas Boles: You're getting a high quality of content knowledge.
John Payne: Yes.
A high quality of content knowledge and knowledge of pedagogy.
So I go into classrooms and I observe classrooms, and that includes when Catholic Virtual is being taught.
Thomas Boles: Mm-hmm.
John Payne: And when I'm in those rooms and observing her deliver instruction, it's high quality instruction.
The activities and assignments are engaging.
And the students are being well prepared for a high school history offering.
And it's my understanding as part of my research and part of something that I let parents know, something that I let parents know when, at the point when I was telling them that I was considering going in this direction mm-hmm.
Was that I had come to find out that our local Catholic high schools, there are online aspects of classes.
That are standard in their own offerings.
Thomas Boles: Mm-hmm.
John Payne: So part of the way that I said this to parent pitched this to parents was to say that this was preparing them for what they would encounter in part in the, in high schools.
Thomas Boles: Mm-hmm.
John Payne: And I don't remember what the statistic is anymore.
But there was also a statistic to do with the growth of online learning in, in, at the university level, and that was continuing to expand post pandemic, right?
And there would most likely not be a diminishment in that, but only a further expansion.
And so.
When I had that meeting with parents, and I think you were part of that meeting I think, did you attend?
Yeah.
Thomas Boles: Yeah.
John Payne: You had a part in that meeting and so did Catholic Virtual and, and overwhelmingly the parents supported going in that direction and I had that position open for some time and was having a very difficult time mid-year filling that position.
We had a teacher.
Resigned two weeks before the school year started.
Thomas Boles: Mm-hmm.
John Payne: We had a parishioner come out of retirement, former teacher, and he let us know from the beginning that he would be able to help out for a time, but he would have to bow out before it became a tax problem for him.
Before he had earned so much income that it would become a tax problem, and because he was in retirement and it, it just was.
I in the midst of this teacher shortage that we're experiencing, which is not going away anytime soon, it was extremely difficult to hire midyear.
Thomas Boles: Mm-hmm.
John Payne: I did open up the position that summer, so that would've been the summer of 24.
Before, not this school year, but be before the previous school year, and I just was not receiving applicants by and large who were.
Who had the necessary background and the two or three that I did when I interviewed them, it was clear that it was just not a fit for different reasons
Thomas Boles: right
John Payne: In, in each case.
But you know, by that time we had a half a year of students experiencing success in the class.
And I'll say in, in one case, there was a.
Before I put this in, right before I put this in place, there was one student in particular who wrote a letter to me asking me not to do this and giving me various reasons.
It's things like, you know, we're not gonna be able to focus and we're gonna be tempted to go on other websites and these kind of things.
Thomas Boles: Mm-hmm.
John Payne: And this same student said to me at the end of the 2324 school year.
Asked me, are we gonna have Ms. Angove next year?
You know, we really like Ms. Angove.
We want to have Ms. Angove next year.
Thomas Boles: Yeah.
John Payne: And at that time I said, you know, I'm not sure, but I'm really glad to hear that you've had a good experience.
And I didn't make reference to her letter, but sh she must have been, I mean, it was this complete 180.
Thomas Boles: Yeah.
Well, it sounds like a great experience, especially when you're, you're already unsure.
You probably got a little bit of resistance from the parents at the beginning
John Payne: Yeah.
Thomas Boles: To know that a year later that you've kind of succeeded in this and that it's something that's turned out to be a very big positive, especially from somebody who in writing said, this is not a great idea.
John Payne: Yeah.
Please don't.
And then at the end of the year, she was practically begging to have Ms. Ango.
Continue as their social studies teacher.
Yeah.
So, so yeah.
I think it was really important to message it it to parents in a coherent way before doing it.
And give them some assurance that this is going to be a quality program, highlighting the teacher's credentials, pointing out to them that, no, this does not mean your kid's entire education is online.
You're still gonna have Mr. Casper for MA for Science.
You're gonna have Mr. McCollum for, for math, you're gonna have Ms. Dozier for, for literature.
You're gonna have all the co-curricular classes in person, just like everybody else, you know?
But this class is going to be online.
Now, it did mean that first year that, that for the sixth grade, the religion and the grammar classes were also online, but those were also very high quality classes.
So three offerings were v. High quality, and it was just one class for seventh and eighth grade.
Just the social studies.
Right.
For sixth grade it was social studies, religion, and grammar.
I think with a qualified person, UpToDate curriculum, this is gonna work really well and it has.
Thomas Boles: Yeah.
And just for documentation sakes, the format of the class is the, all the students are online.
The teacher is.
Being broadcast into the classroom.
Right.
So it's not necessarily, they're all looking at the same, well, they're looking at the same.
Content.
John Payne: Yes.
Thomas Boles: They're potentially watching that teacher on a large screen in the room, but able to interact in whatever the format that Catholic Virtual gives off individually.
Is that correct?
John Payne: Yeah, so the way we have it set up in, initially we were gonna do that, the smart board.
Teacher on the smart board method, but then it became clear very early on that a switch to individual Chromebooks was the better way.
So E, each student has earphones and they are individually on the Chromebook with the instructor, but it is all being delivered at the same time.
Thomas Boles: Right.
John Payne: Yeah.
Thomas Boles: And they're able to participate via that platform together.
John Payne: Yeah,
Thomas Boles: as needed.
John Payne: Right.
And Catholic Virtual has developed protocols for the way that teachers engage conversation with the students so that it can happen as smoothly as possible in an online format.
And from what I've observed, observing classrooms, it works very well.
Thomas Boles: Yeah.
And you mentioned that the, the kind of class is important, if it's gonna be informational, that this works out pretty well.
But if it was gonna be.
A much more dialogue, heavy class, and that that may not work out.
So great.
You filled a need with this.
John Payne: Yes.
Thomas Boles: And you see other classes, either A, being filled this same way, or B per perhaps, eventually some elective type classes that could benefit from this kind of format.
John Payne: Yeah, I would absolutely be open to elective type classes that would be highly desirable and there would not be a realistic expectation of being able to hire somebody in person to deliver them.
Thomas Boles: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
John Payne: Um, so, so unique elective offerings, I would absolutely be open to having them in this.
Format.
Oh one one other thing about Catholic Virtual that was an important point for parents to understand is that they existed as a company roughly a decade before the pandemic.
So they were after the project of how to deliver quality online instruction.
To K through 12 students.
Mm-hmm.
In various subjects.
Long before it, there was an emergency move to everybody jump online and just do it.
Thomas Boles: Mm-hmm.
John Payne: No.
And their model, it is purpose built.
It was not built as a reaction to a crisis.
And so there was lots of time to work out what works and what didn't work long before the pandemic was any kind of factor.
Yeah, whatsoever.
Now.
In terms of core curricular classes, like the social studies offering, I would like at some point when there is a qualified in-person, instructor locally who can take that position, I would like to fill that position in that way.
Thomas Boles: Mm-hmm.
John Payne: I would say that.
In an ideal world, miss Angove moves to South San Francisco and takes the class in person.
Thomas Boles: Yeah.
John Payne: I have great confidence in her teaching ability and she would, she'd be a wonderful addition to our staff.
I, I know that's extremely unlikely and probably.
Is not going to happen.
But I'd say ideally that core curricular classes are delivered by through in-person instruction.
Mm-hmm.
And at the same time when these last two summers, I did not encounter a qualified in-person instructor.
I didn't, I really didn't have any hesitation to continue with Catholic Virtual and Ms. Angove.
Knowing that what the kids have received the last, the year and a half prior to this school year has been high quality instruction.
Thomas Boles: Yeah.
Well, it sounds like it, it fit the need right when you needed it.
And so that's
John Payne: It has.
It really has.
Thomas Boles: And it's nice to know you've got that in your back pocket as you go forward.
John Payne: Yes.
And to have it as an option is to have it as an option is a great comfort.
You know, to and to know, not only do I have online instruction as an option, but it's through a company that is specifically looking for teachers who are committed to their Catholic faith.
That incorporate that perspective into instruction in the way that is the goal of the archdiocese, to incorporate an element of, of our faith into all aspects of instruction throughout the school day.
Thomas Boles: Right.
Yeah.
You're not just working with a, a group that does social studies well,
John Payne: yeah.
Thomas Boles: You are working with a group that understands the Catholic schools and the Catholic education
John Payne: Correct.
Thomas Boles: In junction with everything else that you're asking them to do, so that's a major bonus for them.
John Payne: Right.
Thomas Boles: As a final question, I wanna ask you, if a principal was in the same situation and considering this, are there, is there a couple gotchas that you might want them to consider first?
Or how would they go about this first step?
John Payne: I would say the first step is calling a parent meeting.
And having a very clear, organized message to deliver that highlights who Catholic Virtual are, that they are, like I said earlier, that they are a purpose-built operation.
That they were not developed as a. Panic reaction to the pandemic.
Thomas Boles: Mm-hmm.
John Payne: But they've had a decade to work out what does and doesn't work.
In online instruction for K 12, I would advise contacting Catholic Virtual and getting, getting information about who the teacher is, who would potentially be assigned.
To them.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and being open to parent concerns and at the same time being ready to, to address those by having the kind of background knowledge about Catholic Virtual and what it would look like that I'm talking about.
And also consulting.
Consulting, their managed IT provider.
Very importantly to, to be certain that you, they have the equipment that's necessary to deliver this in a reliable way, because that's going to be one of the parent concerns is does the school, is the school certain that it has what it needs to do this?
Thomas Boles: Yeah.
John Payne: Yeah.
Thomas Boles: That's great.
I appreciate you sharing the story.
I think it's unique for our diocese and hopefully something that other principals around the country who might be listening who will pick up on this and be able to at least see if it's something that they should attempt.
Yeah.
But it's been a positive thing for you and I'm grateful that kids have benefited from that situation.
John Payne: Yeah.
And I will say when I, I was pleasantly surprised.
I really did a lot of research and trying to game out what the parent doubts might be.
And when I gave my presentation, I feel like I, I had, I preventatively addressed a lot of concerns.
Thomas Boles: Mm-hmm.
John Payne: And there, there really was only one family.
That expressed continuing concern after I gave my presentation and or maybe two families, but that was out of at the time, 30 56, somewhere in the neighborhood of 70 families.
There were only two who had ongoing concerns, and it was the child of one of those two, who was the one who at the end of the year said, are we gonna have Ms. Angove next year?
Please tell us.
We're gonna have Ms. Ango next year.
Thomas Boles: Yeah.
John Payne: Yeah.
I'll just say in a summary way, I feel like all of those pieces were.
Really essential communicating to parents what it was going to be and the, with a focus on the quality of it and that it was purpose built and again, anticipating
what questions were going to come my way and preventatively ad addressing those in my presentation of what it would look like if we did go in this direction.
Thomas Boles: Yeah, it really helps to.
Set that stage ahead of time and kind of kill the punch.
John Payne: Yeah.
And really what it ultimately did was build overwhelming consensus that this is the way that we should go.
And so it wasn't something autocratically done by me.
Thomas Boles: Mm-hmm.
John Payne: It was something that the parents were able to weigh in on.
And just as a matter of fact, they overwhelmingly weighed in positive.
Thomas Boles: Oh, that's great.
John Payne: So,
Thomas Boles: well, that's a great story and I appreciate your time, John.
John Payne: Absolutely.
Thank you for your part in giving Assurance that we had what we needed to do this.
I appreciate that.
Thomas Boles: Happy to be a part of it.
It's just great to be even associated to the success of any school, even more so when something outside the box that's exciting.
I wanna thank John for his time today, and if you're thinking about different staffing models, something you don't want to necessarily jump into so quickly, but you want to think about
how this might impact and take those keys from John about having that pre-meeting to kind of squash any sort of bugs that, that people might be bringing up, this why this might not work.
And if you can address those concerns ahead of time, then it really makes the conversation about, well, how do we make this possible?
And it's always fun to think outside the box and see what we can do, but.
Ultimately, it's all about making sure the kids get the best education they can, and sometimes that requires a little bit of creativity.
So hopefully you can learn from today's example with John and St. Veronica's here in South San Francisco, and we'll see you next time.
Thanks for joining us on In Search of Catholic School Excellence.
We hope you heard something inspiring or something you'd like to try at your own school.
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Until next time, celebrate what's working and keep reaching for what's possible.