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Transforming the Game with Kristina Katsanevas is the podcast for game-changers, risk-takers, and industry shakers. Don’t hate the player—hate the game? Not here. These leaders are rewriting the rules. From high-net-worth entrepreneurs, founders of Australia’s most iconic brands, and those disciplined enough to keep stacking those habits to success. We dive into the minds of pioneers innovating in media, business, fashion, sport and transformation.
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Kristina Katsanevas (00:00)
I thought dreams were for the wealthy. I thought they were for the rich. I thought they were for the privileged. I didn't realize that you could dream. Dreams are free. That was like the light bulb moment. And before I knew it, I was flying on the prime minister's planes. And then I went, now I'm compromising my integrity. And I couldn't do that. The moment you compromise your integrity, you can't sleep. From youth detention to the global stage, Jeremy Donovan is a proud Kuku Yelangie man, bestselling speaker, artist and cultural healer. He opened the Sydney Olympics, performed at
The thing with culture is even if you're not that interested in it, if I can narrate it, you'll fall in love with the words that I share and that will impact you. I was the life of the party but I was dying inside. I was unhappy in my marriage. I wasn't happy about how I was being a father. I wasn't happy with who I was. I wasn't happy
with the story I told. Healing doesn't mean the scars don't exist. It just means the scars no longer can hold.
Kristina Katsanevas (01:35)
My name is Jeremy Donovan. When I was born, my mum named me Jeremiah. But the foster care system changed my name to Jeremy. And when I met my mum at 25, she called me Jeremiah. And I was like, Mom, my name's Jeremy. She's like, So there were two things that came to light. One, I'd celebrated my birthday.
on the first of July every year. And so I was super excited in 2005 because my second son was born on the first of July. And I took both my two sons to meet my mum. And it was the second time I was meeting her. And I said, it's great. I've got Atari's born on the same day as me on the first of July. And she's like, no, you were born on the third. I'm like, what do mean? And my mum then gave me the tiny little bracelet that she had kept.
which said Jeremiah, third of July. And so it's this complex situation that the world already knew me. Like at that stage, I'd already had passports. I was traveling to the Australian government. I was known as Jeremy Donovan. And so I changed my name by depol to Jeremiah and my family call me Jeremiah.
and my close friends. so because he works with one of my best friends who I run a business with, he knew me as Jeremiah. You know, so it's kind of interesting, you know, I answered to both. But yeah, Jeremiah is like the name that I say without thinking. Yeah, that's what yeah. And it was interesting because.
Jeremy never felt like it belonged to me. I really didn't like the name Jeremy when I was growing up. was like, such an odd name for, it seems like a really nice name for a nice little boy. And I wasn't a nice boy. Like I was like, this wasn't, it didn't belong to me, you know?
And then I guess when you find you reclaim the name, like, as you would have heard, but like I reclaimed so much. Then I read and I'm not religious in any kind of manner. I'm a big believer in spirituality and I've read, you know, I'm in the process of reading the author, the translated Orthodox Bible at the moment. Yeah.
I'm, you know, I've read translation versions of the Quran, the New Testament, all to, you know, but I was really intrigued by the chapter of Jeremiah and what that actually meant and what relationship to that chapter in particular my life had. Yeah. So, yeah, it's amazing stuff.
I love to learn, right? Like, so I don't have it, I have an unbiased relationship to knowledge, right?
So when you have, if you look into astrology and you start looking at your lineage based on astrology, but then you're looking at it as a wrong date, it's a totally different story. Especially your two days out, like that's moving. Yeah, it's a totally different story. And so, yeah, when you start looking at those sort of things, you start realizing there are these patterns that have existed.
even unconsciously, without us having any control in it, that it does play a part.
it's life is a crazy roller coaster. It is it keeps you on your toes. Yeah, I'm going to circle back and go. Jeremiah, welcome to transforming the game. Amazing. Thank you for having me. I'm excited about this. And this is I'm just going to say not that anyone can see it, but we have a beautiful view here of the beach on the Gold Coast and the sun is shining. Ocean is blue and just one.
It really is spectacular. We are very fortunate.
So you are a proud and you're going to have to tell me. Ku Ku and G and goombay. Yeah, good. All right. So let's go again. Kuku Yeah. So like the K is often pronounced with a G. Okay, good. So we say Kuku Google. And KuKu means the language we speak.
And then Yalangi. Yalangi. Yeah, so KuKu Yalangi. KuKu Yalangi. Perfect. You know, means the language we speak and Yalangi means in this country. You know, so it's talking about like that's how and then Gumbangia. So Guggu Yalangi country is my grandfather's country. And that starts around Port Douglas.
in North Queensland and then stretches as far north as Cooktown and then west out to Laura or out to a place called Chilago. And so that is the traditional country of my grandfather. We're Western Yalangie people. So we're actually Gugul and Yugal people. And Yugal was the clan, was a clan of the Gugul Yalandi people. So and then Gumbangia was the mid-north coast of New South Wales. My grandmother was born at Barrowville, which is west of Coffs Harbour.
But she was removed from family forcibly as part of the stolen generation and she was raised at Parramatta Girls Home. my cultural teachings have all come from my grandfather and my grandfather's brothers.
And so I always identify myself as a Gugla Yaranjiman first because my knowledge of Gumbangya culture is limited. As much as I want to spend more and more time learning more and more history about that, the knowledge and teachings that I have and I carry with me and I share came from my grandfather and my grandfather's brothers. Born up north at Mossman and then raised predominantly in Sydney my whole life.
completely separate from culture, complete, a whole different identity. And so, the first five years, well, I don't have any knowledge. No memory, which is fine, it's normal. But we also know the tragedy of the bandwidth of a child under trauma and traumatic circumstances has this mechanism to protect themselves by having no memory.
So, you know, tragic, like 26 foster families before you're five years old. And so a heartbreaking like trail of terror, you know, that sort of that sits with that. And, you know, at six, seven, you know, I redefined my identity as a a a Māori person, you know, like because, you know, I was being raised with Polynesian community.
And so, the Polynesian, like the Māori, the Samoan, the Tongan, but that culture and community then went on to raise me through rugby, through life, through how I was being growing up. And I really defined my identity as that, you know. And then it wasn't until I was 13 that I then hit a rocky road and then discovered that, fact, that's not who I am. That in fact that...
I have an Aboriginal father, not a Polynesian father. so, yet again... So it was only 13, you realised that wasn't your biological father? Yeah, yeah. Well, not my biological, but I just... I was told that you're from a Māori background. So it just... That's who I was. That's how I...
knew myself, you know, and it's how I presented myself to the world, you know, as well, is that, you know, I was performing in like kapa haka, you know, and learning about like Tangata Fennawa and all this, you know, Māori concepts and constructs of culture, like even the word, there's a very beautiful word in the Māori language, which is fang'aid and fang'aid mean is the word for adoption. But it's a word that gives you place.
within a family structure, the word adoption is such an abrupt and an ugly word. Like it actually means you don't belong to them, but they're looking after you anyway. Whereas Fung-Aid means your family. Like you sit in this structure as family and no one's to ask any different. And so it wasn't until I was 13 at Bajira Children's Court actually that I discovered, started discovering and unraveling all of this.
guess carnage that would, impact the next, seven years of my life.
you're doing so much good in the community as a whole. You've got accolades and a list and I've written pages of notes,
years, what was your turning point? The bush. And the country. And this incredible concept that we as First Nations people, talk about country.
And it's quite topical, because people say, recently we've heard it in the New why do I have to be welcome to country? I'm from Australia. But our concept of country and Australia's concept of the continent as country is completely different. As a KuKu Yalangi man that's my country. That's where I come from. And so when we talk about country, we're talking about where we belong to.
where we come from. Yeah, everything, you know, and country is a home, you know, like so why I always explain to people like a welcome to country is like a doorbell. Because if you're walking up your street and you need to contact the next one, I don't just walk in their front door like you ring the doorbell and then you introduce yourself and then they will say, oh, come through, join a glass of water.
And they'll tell you a little bit about the neighborhood if you're new in the area. That's welcome to country. That's what it was, is that traditionally this is an ancient concept.
that we have for a long time, you if you look at all the Yelindji people we have to the north of us, we have Gugul Yamatha people are the northern people. To the south we have Irakandji Yelindji people. And welcome to country had always been exercised amongst us. You know, Gugul Taipan out to the west, you know, because...
there were always times where they would have to cross across boundaries. And at that time, often, you know, people would make their way to the border and their borders were often distinctly marked by mountains or rivers. And so they would often camp there and make a fire. then the...
people of that country, of that climate, would see it. They would come and invest. They would sit down. They would say, oh, look, at the moment, might have a funeral going on. There's something going on, a ceremony. Or actually, you can't go over there. And then give them safe passage to walk across country. And that's what is missing. This concept, this conversation, is the piece that's missing the most in our society because it's so misunderstood.
You know, sounds yeah, that's that's even a learning a bit of a learning for me, but it sounds like a The basics of mutual respect mutual respect
so when you say what change country changed me, you know that at 19 years old almost 19
I was released from Silverwater, Romain Centre, an adult prison, and I left and went straight back to Northern Queensland to be with my grandparents. And at that point, changed my life because I knew how to navigate the darkness of Sydney. And when I talk about darkness, I'm not just talking about...
the night, like I'm talking about the sinister side of Sydney. And I knew that place. I was safe in that place. I knew how to exist. I'd survived in that place. And then all of a sudden I leave Sydney and the city and I'm put into a world that is so foreign because, know, we there are no traffic lights. There are no street lights. There is a generator that makes electricity. There is
Like if you want fresh fish, you go catch it. there was limited amount of money, So I went from a world where illegally there was an abundance of whatever you wanted to then understanding the constructs of poverty. in it, while I was living in it, I would have never identified it as poverty because it was so rich.
Like the happiness, the joy, the sharing, the love existed more in poverty than it did in wealth. And that was a really big eye opener for me because when I look at the shanty that we were living in, like this little corrugated tin shed with a dirt floor, a rusty old wire frame bed, campfire that was cooked in, it was so beautiful.
when you got there, like you say how different it was, safe. I was terrified. I was so scared at first when I felt like every sound, like I was a city kid. I was like, what's that? you'd hear rustling in the bush. I was terrified,
i wasn't with anyone my own age they were all old people which was beautiful because um and and when i say and old people it's such a sign of reverence and it's funny in our western society if you say oh you look old people get really offended yeah like they're like what the fuck like back that up yeah you can't say that you but you know we call our grandparents like hey old man like because or
That's a sign of reverence, of wisdom, of knowledge, of live, of lived life. And so it's a, even if I pull up at the petrol station and an old man said that, don't know, I'll say, I'll say, hello, old man. And so I'm recognising him and his seniority. And it's such a really beautiful, concept because people are so attached to age down here in the Western world. But your country healed me because I was
terrified you couldn't do anything wrong with wonders too. You could not do anything wrong living in the bush except something wrong would get you really hurt. know like so if you pick up a snake that is venomous it will bite you and you will possibly die because we're a long way away.
Or if you walk behind that horse, it will kick you, you know, or if you ride the horse too fast, you will fall. like, so everything, every action had a consequence. And I don't really think that consequences existed like that in the city. your actions in the city for me were you might go to jail. But that narrative was. Was normal. It was so normalized, but.
The thought of getting kicked by a horse terrified me. know, like, and so I often I laugh about this, but it's a tragic laugh that until moving to Cape York with my grandparents, I'd never seen a horse. I'd never pet a horse. I'd seen police horses, maybe, you know, like, but I'd never pet a horse. And the closest thing to a horse was probably a stolen Mustang.
And the reality was that, the horses became my life, at crocodile station, I built a relationship with a horse called Smoky, you know, which was, and it taught me trust, taught me to love, it taught me to touch, it taught me to feel, it taught me when my emotions were off, its emotions were off. So it taught me the intuitiveness that the horse sensed it, you know, like to the point where, as I was going through this incredible healing,
journey for two and a half years. The relationship I have with the horses was the first, it taught me to love and trust. Because they were unconditional. Like the animals. Animals are phenomenal. The animal therapy is. and so I've come to learn about equine therapy and all of those sort of things, but unaware, that's what was going on.
putting your hand on a horse and watching its whole skin shiver. And like you realize, oh, this connection that I remember and the nostalgic memories that I have, even just talking about it, watching their way their ears prick up, watching the way they exhale. What like all of these things? I now appreciate so much more. Maybe. As I'm 46 and.
I really believe now in reflection that men, probably don't really start truly understanding our emotional intelligence until till 40 maybe. then, you know, like there are. Yeah. So I think at 46, I'm becoming far more emotionally intelligent and emotionally articulate. As a result.
of things and so what's that what that's allowing me to do is reflect a lot on the on the things that impacted me the most in the most critical times of my life. And you're doing you appear to be doing really well in ability without paying it forward and a lot of cultural stuff keynote speaking. You're a phenomenal artist and I feel like a lot of that might come out in your artistry.
When did you realise, just let's go on the art trail, when did you realise that you could paint and draw and... I guess art was always, it was one of the things that got me in the most trouble, you know, because I looked at the city streets of Sydney and went, oh, they're ugly. And I was like, oh, could go and, there was, in Redfern, there was a old cobbler and...
The Cobblers back then had this had tux and shoe paint. And so they were in a spray can, and they had the most beautiful colors. And there was an old bloke. don't I'm fairly sure like he was an old Italian man. And so he used to give me a spray can. Every time I dropped off a pair of shoes to a client. So from every spray can I could then go and paint a painting. And so we had this beautiful relationship. Sometimes it would be three, four cans.
You know, and three, four drops of shoes and I'd get six cans of paint. And all of sudden that was enough for a mural. And then I'd paint a train and then I'd go back. you know, so painting art for me was always, has always been part of my life. It's just, was a graffiti, I was a vandal. I was a graffiti artist and it was not appreciated. It's really nice now at 46, I can be an artist and I can be an artist with spray cans. Yeah.
and it's accepted, acknowledged, it's appreciated, and it makes a really good living. And it's phenomenal. I was watching one you did in Palm Island. Yeah. That was just beautiful. then you've also had your artwork gone global and on things like Nescafé.
David J. Yeah, it's my artist. It's been an incredible privilege. Palm Island, firstly, to talk about is one of the most powerful projects I've ever been involved in because Palm Island has a direct relationship to my family. So the viewers and listeners, Palm Island's history is steeped in sadness and pain here in Queensland. Palm Island essentially was like a prison. It was like
Queensland's version of Rottnest Island, which they have in WA, but whereby Aboriginal people from 40 different tribes around Queensland were forcibly removed and put on this island and they were managed under the Aboriginal Act that was in operation from the 1930s.
it's a history that is full of pain and sadness, but also so much joy that is on that island. It's and I have direct, you blood connections to that place. So to be able to be brought in by the local Aboriginal Council to create the artworks and
has been an incredible privilege because we're able to bring the stories to life. But these are stories that I know because for the last 25 years, I've been telling these stories. And then you have the canvas artwork, But I was probably at the forefront of what we see today.
whereby there are so many Aboriginal artworks being used on the location, covers. They're beautiful too. I love seeing it. Absolutely. so when Nestle contracted me to do that piece of artwork,
I've been incredibly privileged to walk in the supermarkets and see coffee tins lining the shelves, with my artwork and, seeing the elation of my kids, know, when they when they recognize the artwork as my own.
And then it has continued on, Suncorp Bank have used all my artwork, David Jones have used all my artwork. even I was walking in Darwin last week and I walked past a building and my partner was like, isn't that your artwork?
And yeah, so a business that I couldn't even remember, working with, it was using my artwork, which again, it probably compromises the licensing agreement. They're going to get an email, know, very soon because, but the reality was like, it's a beautiful celebration of, of being able to share this art around, the world. And people buy my art. That's an incredible privilege,
and they put it in the house and they love it. And I will never tire of that buzz, that people want your artwork in their house. I don't know, there's something about when you see some Aboriginal art that you do. For me, I'm like, that feels home.
one of the most beautiful conversations I ever had with my grandfather was just right before he passed away. And I said to him, I was like, Old Man, like now I yell at you, like what's my obligation to you as a yell at you?
And my grandfather held my hand and in a very tough translation he was telling me, promise me you take any man or woman and walk them through our country, walk them through our art, walk them through our language, walk them through our story. Let them feel what we do. Our Goga Yalanyinawawere is like, let them feel this.
that conversation alone had the biggest impact on me.
It inspired the compassion of learning, if we just keep teaching, Australia will learn. And that's, you know, one of the things is that, look, Australia, I've seen the whole world. I'm incredibly privileged to see the whole world. There is not a country I'd rather call home. It's not without, you know, political issues or problems, but there is no country in the world that doesn't have that. We're not perfect.
You know, I don't like the narrative Australia is a racist country. I don't like it makes you feel incredibly uncomfortable because I don't believe so I believe that there is a lot of ignorance in this country as a result of lack of it and lack of information being available and also the hiding of information, you know that that the powers to be
didn't allow proof to be told. So therefore people just weren't afforded the truth. And that's my obligation, is to share culture in a story that I never want a person sitting with me to feel guilty or ashamed. Because, be empowered by Like the reality is, it is tragic, our history. It is painful. But if we keep sweeping the pain underneath the carpet, the rug of this lucky country,
then the pain festers and it keeps bubbling. But if we actually sit and talk about the pain together and go, this is yours as much as it is mine.
we get to build a really beautiful relationship on the back of pain. And that's, you know, I look at my life a little bit, is that the foundations of my life, early life were painful. But if I defined my life by the pain, it would have destroyed me and it would have destroyed everyone around me. But if you let yourself be inspired by it and you change and you create a life based on that trajectory, like anything's possible.
from that I do, I read where your grandfather asked you what do you want to Yeah. That's a pretty powerful, what do you want to be? Do want to be another Aboriginal kid in jail? And that's all you'll ever be. And it was a really hard hitting statement. Because at that point I thought it was incredibly arrogant. I was like, what do you mean? You can't just change.
You can't just, I can't just change, can't up and leave here. Like I thought it was really arrogant. I was like, you know, who are you to tell me? you know, but then this concept was, I guess shared with me that.
we have the ability to dream, and dreams are free. And that was like the light bulb moment because I thought dreams were for the wealthy, I thought they were for the rich, I thought they were for the privileged. I didn't realize that you could dream. And then if you applied the right tools to a dream, or this is how I like to talk it, I call it seeds of dreams.
And if you've got a handful of dreams and you throw them out the car as you're driving, they'll never grow. Or maybe you'll get lucky. One will sprout. But if you actually have your seeds and then you turn your soil and then you plant those seeds carefully, or you germinate the seed or you let it in cotton wool on your window sill, and then you plant the seed and...
I mean, you would appreciate it. I mean, the Greek history, like growing plants and like gardeners, you like I know, like the relationship between the Greek migrants that came to Australia and especially Northern Queensland, they were a lot of them with tobacco farmers and the Greek were also quite dark skinned.
And so therefore, a lot of Aboriginal people worked and were protected by the Greek migrants that came into this. So the Greek and Italian migrants have got a beautiful history within our stories. And even the Greek Orthodox, they were very giving and nurturing of some of the Aboriginal kids that were living out in stations or on these plantations.
You know, this garden of dreams and then you water it with love, belief, discipline, right attitude. So all the right ingredients. Your garden will grow. You know, and sometimes you get to a point where that garden, the dream is not quite.
what I thought it was going to be. So then you take a clipping of that dream, which is infused with all your DNA and you plant it next to it. And now this one will. Yeah. So it's it's it really is one of those things that, know, the the attitude of dreams came from that conversation with my grandfather. how about dreaming big enough that
one of the biggest events Australia's had. Look, I think it was a crazy concept, That there were, I will never play didgeridoo on a bigger stage than the Sydney Olympic. And that was literally my first ever go up almost. You know, like I left Cape York in 2000 in, you know, North Queensland in 2000.
and joined Bangar Aboriginal Dance. And that was March, April, May. In June, I got my first ABN number and I traveled with Darryl Summers, you know, from Hey Hey It's Saturday. So I traveled with Darryl Summers, you know, because the Northern Territory had a campaign for tourism back then called You Never Never Know If You Never Never Go.
And I got the contract playing didgeridoo as the entertainment, on that territory roadshow promoting the Northern Territory as destination. And then in September we had the Sydney Olympics and, myself and one other didgeridoo player, were privileged enough to be the didgeridoo players who opened up the Sydney Olympics. night that Cathy Freeman won, you know, which is three and a half weeks later. I was playing didgeridoo in this corporate suite.
for the Australian ambassador to Switzerland and it was the first time I had an honest conversation with a stranger about my life, because the ambassador said to me, Jeremy would you ever come across to Switzerland? And I had to be honest for the first time at that point and said I would love to but I don't think I'm allowed. But what do you mean? I'm like well, I've been told that
of my criminal history, I'm not allowed a passport. 11 juvenile sentences, two adult sentences. It was my life. before that, this happened. was like, boy, this is quite a horrific story.
What if I could help you? In December, I got sent forms that would give me an invite to the United Nations, Geneva. And in February of 2001, I flew out on a diplomatic invitation to Geneva to tell my story about
I guess the abuse was subjected to in care facilities. I spoke about the abuse was subjected to incarcerated. And then I spoke about my grandparents and life that they were giving me, Sydney Olympic. And it was the first time I ever spoke publicly. So I was...
Don't do it in halves. It's like your first thing you you'll the Sydney Olympics. first keynote is at the United Nations. So you're like, go hard or go home, is Jeremiah. Exactly right. it just all of a sudden life was that, you know, and for the next 10 years between 2001 and 2011.
I travelled the world playing didgeridoo for all the Australian embassies around the world. So Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, know, the Buckingham Palaces, you know, London Philharmonic Orchestra, German Philharmonic Orchestra, the Edinburgh Tattoo, you know, like, just like, it's phenomenal life, you know, at one, in 2011, it all started to change a little bit because what I realised was I had this great life.
But there was so much untold history here in Australia and there was so much poverty. And that was the part that affected me was people in Australia don't like to say the word poverty because we're a rich country. We're a lucky country. And so it makes us feel uncomfortable. Yeah, we're not ignoring it or we're not doing So we say things like low socioeconomic or, know, it's, know, because that makes us feel a bit safer. But the reality is poverty.
You know, like here on the Gold Coast amongst the glitz and glamour, poverty exists 40 minutes up the road. And if you turn off your highway into Inala, into Woodridge, know, parts of Logan, poverty exists. And people call it the ghettos and all these things. But inside there is poverty as a result of policies of the past. You know, or the displacement of migrant people.
refugees and you know all these different things poverty exists and I Went how do I do it? Well? I'm gonna take this voice
and this education of the world that I've been given because I have sat next to, whether it be in airplanes, in business club, class lounges, at dinners, some of the greatest minds of every, and I've picked their brains. Like a crow, I have picked everything.
And for me, learning didn't come through reading. Reading was difficult. But listening was my, like, I guess my superpower. And listening and then remembering. Repetitive learning, you know. So I would always stop people. was like, what's that word?
What does that mean? And then I would rememberize that word, and then I would learn that word, learn the meaning of that word, then I would just apply that word to language. And people have often said, hey, where did you become so articulate? And the world made me articulate. Absolutely. When I met Sir David Attenborough,
I met him at Buckingham Palace. There was, you know, an event that was hosted. Like I was one shocked. He was so tall. Like he was tall. He's really is tall. And so I was like had such a man crush on David. know, David Anabrat taught me that you could tell a story. And you didn't actually have to be interested in the topic, but you become fascinated in the narration. And so the thing with culture is.
even if you're not that interested in it, if I can narrate it, you'll fall in love with the words that I share and that will impact you. many times I've had that experience where people not interested necessarily in learning culture, in fact, they think they know a lot, listen to the way I articulate it and that changes their perception. And so...
I guess, you know, public speaking was not something I ever trained for, never had a desire to, I was thrown on the stage and my mouth opened and I could speak. Do you think that comes from just generation? Storytelling. Storytelling, right?
100%. It's the only thing I can attribute to. Because, you know, my mum is the most, like, she's the most beautiful, tiny little lady. know, you know, my mum... But my mum... And I guess in a way, I look at that even, is that, you know, my mum and all my sisters...
are all carers. So my mum is a registered nurse. My elder sister is a nurse practitioner. One of my sisters studied midwifery and is a qualified registered nurse. And the other one now is completing her course. And so they're all nurses. And so even in that part of things, that genetic makeup is that...
I think that, yeah, genetically I come from an ancestry of storytellers and a lineage of carers. And that is really what I am today. I'm a storyteller. And in a sense, my grandfather taught me about traditional healing and medicine and all these different things. And so I naturally was drawn to how I help someone. So, know, public speaking,
is, you know, I'm sharing my story, the intimate details of pain, the hardship, the break and, you know, the breaks, the ups and downs, the mental health, the challenges with addiction. I'm taking people on this, making them feel safe to say it's OK to heal. I said...
healing doesn't mean the scars don't exist. It just means the scars no longer control us. And that is a really important thing that we do throughout our life.
trauma in various degrees, irrespective of what it might be.
so in 2017, I was contracted by the federal government as a consultant to do the Royal Commission up in Darwin with kids that were abused in Dondale Corrections Centre. And I did, you know, for eight months, every face-to-face consultation with kids.
and it re-traumatized myself really badly in a way that I could never have anticipated or expected. I didn't expect that. I thought I was good. And the cracks in my armor came down really quickly. And at the end of that consultation, the bureaucrats went back to their business, back in their business down in Canberra, and I was destroyed. And the nightmares that...
went on to haunt me, I then treated them with addiction. So I then developed a pretty gnarly cocaine addiction. had... And every... That was at a time that everything was going wrong anyway. Things were just not working out in my life. I had become unhappy. And I was... At that point, I was married. I was unhappy in my marriage. I was a dad.
with all this pain, I wasn't happy about how I was being a father. I wasn't happy with who I was. I wasn't happy with the story I told. And so what I realized was my happiness was gone and I tried to, you know, what I call the Robin Williams syndrome, whereby I was the life of the party, but I was dying inside. And so people would walk in and I would have my...
in my head and my hands and people would walk in and I'd turn around like, oh my God, like, and all of a sudden it was show time. It was just, my life was entertainment. And then they would go and I would have to deal with this pain of who I was. And I became like a really, a, like not someone that I'm proud of, you know, because no one really knew the depths of my addiction. I was hiding it from people,
I realized, if you're sniffing so much cocaine that you have powder around your nose, everyone knows that people are gonna, so then you start injecting it, Because I keep turning up for work. You know, I keep turning up. I keep standing on stage. I get, you know, like,
It was ridiculous. I was flying around the country with cocaine in my pocket every day. I was a horrific addict. Or there wasn't a place in a city where I didn't know the number of someone that would drop the cocaine to me at the airport. So it was a horrific drug addiction that was masking all of my pain. And it wasn't until...
I probably, until everything crashed and burned, like I finally got out of the marriage that I was in, you know, which I was terrified because I was like, like, fuck, like, these are my kids, like, how do I leave the kids? I was really heartbroken about that. You know, but I didn't I was heartbroken about staying in a marriage with woman that I wasn't love with. And then, you know, like then I had to put the pieces of the puzzle back together. So.
And it probably the addiction went, you know, through 2016, 17, 18 and into 19. And I just finally started getting a hold of everything. 2020. And I was like, right back to face the world. How did you start getting yourself out of it? I ran out of money. So it wasn't a realization. No, I ran out of money.
I simply ran out of money. And in fact, I was sitting, this is the biggest. Actually, you're right. There's two points. I ran out of money, but there was a circumstance that went on is I found myself sitting in Aramada Children's Court with my second son, who had been arrested or trespass, but also tragically
that the police had found a sawed-off shotgun.
And it was a sliding door moment where, I think that's the right terminology, it a that everything I'd ever done to...
I had ultimately created. Here I am sitting in the paramatta of children's court, 20 years after I last sat.
looking at my son who was born pretty much on same birthday, you you think about the stories and growing up to be just like me. I've let him down. I've really, I've let him down and it broke my heart. Like I remember the tears that fell. you know, fortunately for me, I had some money left in my bank account. wasn't relying on legal aid, I paid a lawyer.
which was never afforded to me. And fortunately, my son was given a good behaviour bond. He was never incarcerated. He was acquitted of the offences And it was this moment of, need to fix my life. And I don't have any money left. I spent every last cent...
on that lawyer fee for my son. I got offered a job over in the Kimberleys in Cuninara in Western Australia, I was like, great.
Nobody knows me here. I was no one. just turned up for work. And when I wasn't working, I went fishing.
I went back to country.
it wasn't long before, I fell in love over there, you know, like, you know, I fell in love with the country, but then I met a beautiful woman. And, you know, and it was this really incredibly, like, interesting relationship because it just really was me taking care of her for a long, like, it was, like, it wasn't like any relationship I'd experienced before
It was very different. it really was taking care of someone, looking after someone and loving someone and just spending time with someone.
I found this really beautiful video yesterday. just.
mind-numbingly scrolling as we get stuck in that vortex and I guess any algorithms they drive what we need. know, it says, you the person you truly love, you love twice. You know, so at first you fall in love with the looks, it's all it's that flurry of the line. And then if you go through all the hardship and the pain, you then fall in love again with all of the person's imperfections, know, it's you know, I hope that
comes true, know, like the reality is. and you know, like, we're constantly learning, right? Like we're learning how to be the best parent, being a parent's hard
Like I raise all four, like four of my kids at the moment to myself alone. And it's hard, know, like teenage girls are hard.
I have my my daughter who's 17, who is doing incredibly well. You know, she
was involved for the second time in Australian Fashion Week as a model. She's incredibly beautiful. Then I have my 13-year-old daughter who knows the answers to everything in the world.
and is incredibly inquisitive, incredibly, like she's amazing young girl, you know, and then my 22 year old son who lives with his partner, he's a fiance, you know, but essentially I'm still raising them all. And it's hard work,
I love my daughters with all of my heart. Like I spoil my like I spoil my girls like the way a daughter hugs you is very different to the way your son and I'm sure women experience that with their sons. Yeah. So.
Yeah, it's tough, know, so hopefully, you know, the second, the second abbreviation of love, you know, we get it right, you know, we've been, you know, spending time together in Darwin, you know, because it's sort of halfway between the coast. know, she can go from Cananara to Darwin, I can go from Brisbane to Darwin and it's...
Yeah. So, know, so that's, know, so there is a phase, you know,
with the wonderful thing about being an entrepreneur and a business owner is you can dictate the terms of where you live and operate. So even if all my business is in Queensland, I don't have to live in I can mobilize, I can get to wherever I need to go to. There is a plane to everywhere. You don't even really have to tell your clients where you live because you're just gonna catch a plane there anyway.
It doesn't matter. Even if I was going to Brisbane for two nights of work, I would book two nights of hotel accommodation anyway. So if I lose maybe a couple of hundred bucks profit on a business, because I have to pay my tickets or flight. But most businesses these days, as a consultant, they'll cover your airfare. They'll cover your... As an artist, all of my expenses, I cost it back to the client anyway.
With your your entrepreneur because you've set up a pretty good life there and you do a lot of cultural Consulting which in the big corporations they are bringing in KPIs and targets on Welcome to country There's a certain like there's all these stats I did want to ask you about and if you even knew about In a lot of the bigger bigger corporations where they have a start to have
Yeah, procurement. So I can it's one of the things that I can hand on my my heart. Stand proudly by the creation of the procurement policies. So myself, I'm in Marcia Langton, who's one of who is probably.
not as well known, but is probably Australia's greatest Indigenous academic. I don't know that she would like me saying that. She's incredibly humble, but is probably our she's the most phenomenal lady who was at the forefront of the protests, in the 70s and the 60s. And now is one of our greatest academics based out of Melbourne. She's a phenomenally beautiful lady that comes with so much knowledge, but
Aunty Marcia and myself were both contracted to Andrew Forrest, Twiggy. You know, our richest Australian. So he was, when the Abbott-led government was elected, one of the, you he committed to what is called the Forrest Review. And that was Andrew Forrest doing a review on welfare.
and the reforms around welfare. And because Andrew Forrest is Andrew Forrest, he was like, well, I'm not going to do welfare. I'm going to do whatever I want. I'm going to do a reform on every and he created the Forrest review, which went on to have 27 recommendations around Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. But again, was a great example of the government investing into a white man to tell people how Aboriginal people should change their lives.
But I was an advisor on that in that process. It's also when I resigned from working for Andrew. But the procurement policy came from that. And it was based on Fortescue's FMG's. at that point of time, had spent one billion dollars on Aboriginal contracts, on Aboriginal business Fortescue. They were leading the way with Rio Tinto. But Fortescue's
perception of an Aboriginal business was based on 25 % ownership. And I don't believe that's right. now Aboriginal business is recognised as 51 % ownership, and that is what quantifies an Aboriginal business. the government committed to parity. So basically,
3.6 % of the total population of Australia is Aboriginal. And so 3.6 % of the total spend of the government should go to Aboriginal businesses. And this was based around, you know, the modeling and the recommendations came from the success of Aboriginal businesses in Canada, in Northern America, whereby it had really alleviated poverty because Aboriginal businesses employ Aboriginal people at a far greater rate than any other business. But...
people take advantage of And so one of the things that we've faced as Aboriginal businesses are fake business. know, these Aboriginal owned businesses that have an Aboriginal name attached it, they have nothing to do with it. And they're winning these big contracts. know, things that make me really uncomfortable like, you know, PricewaterhouseCoopers has an Indigenous arm, you know, but how?
And that's kind of, and that is the angle I was going to head down is that the, I've seen, because I've seen, I've been involved in big corporations with his policy. thought it was brilliant. And then I came across someone who is like, I'm starting a business. I'm like, right. And he has Aboriginal. Yep. And I said, great. And he goes, so I can get.
the Indigenous contracts. I'm like, hang on. I'm like, wait, what? And he's like, yeah, because I'm Indigenous. And I said, but, is it, in my head, in my head, ignorantly, was it went to Aboriginal community who
were supporting Aboriginal communities. then you had the whatever, like in my head was it was bigger than an individual that happened to have a grandfather that was Aboriginal, because they could be really well off and living a really great life and be very wealthy. But because their grandfather was an Aboriginal, they are now getting these massive contracts and like because they have to get and I'm like, I feel like someone missed a boat. It has to be, you know, part of the part of the issue is
comes down to greed, right? So I always talk about the transition of a race of people goes through survival, then goes to greed before you get to thriving. And I feel like in many cases, we're at this part as a nation, especially as First Nations people, greed is actually in place in some people are taking advantage of circumstances.
I've seen so many fake businesses. I've seen so many businesses as an Aboriginal man, I'm disgusted that another Aboriginal person would just put their name to it just for a kickback. know, like, so, know, when the procurement policy came out, my phone rang so hot, people were like, do you want to do a JV with us? And I'm like,
All right, I'm entrepreneurial. Yeah, yeah, so you're like, I'm like, yes, wait, so tell me about it. Well, have to do anything. We just need your name. You'll be the you'll be like on paper, the 51 % and we'll just give you a kickback. And I'm like, doesn't work that way. Yeah, if I'm 51 % on total control, I'm majority control. So a lot of shareholders, a lot of people didn't want to do business with me because I'm an entrepreneur. I will take an opportunity.
You know, like my artwork business, Native Arts, is myself and Matty Tepea. You know, he's Māori. I'm like, we have a 51 % registered business. You know, but we're both artists. I deliver the work. I chase the contracts. I'm at the forefront of the payment. I'm managing those sort of things. He, Matty is a far greater artist than me. But business is what I do.
He doesn't, he's an artist. Most artists are not good at business. You know, whereas I had this incredible apprenticeship under Andrew Forrest, one of the most ruthless business, whether you like it or not, and I don't like it, but it taught me everything I know about business. You've been around such amazing people and you're a sponge and you're smart enough to have been making, I've been so lucky, you know, like most people in their life will never meet a billionaire. And I'm not, this is not a flex. This is,
But I've worked, been to Necker Island with Richard Branson. Amazing. know, like, Losing My Virginity, that book that he wrote. Amazing book. You know, amazing philanthropist. Incredibly compassionate, incredibly artistic, autistically artistic. I call it, like, that's where I sort of put myself sometimes. I'm autistically artistic. You know, is that I see things and I can't actually get it out of my brain.
and then there was Sir Frederick Barclay and Sir David Barclay who owned the London.
Telegraph, they, you know, they own the Ritz-Carlton in London, you know, like these guys, 26,000 employees, you know, the Barclay Empire is a big but empire. And then Andrew Forrest, and then, so in my life, I've worked alongside these four.
incredible billionaires that made the money themselves. The Barclays built their empire like a real life monopoly story. They bought a milk bar, they then built a hotel. They owned all the milk bars, they then built a hotel. They then had a number of, they created that empire that way. Amazing. Do you keep in contact with the Yeah, the Barclay family, I certainly do. Sir David Barclay passed away tragically, but Sir Frederick is still alive.
a great friendship with his daughter and granddaughter who has a disease called Williams syndrome and that's how I came in contact with the Barclay family but then went on to work with the entire family as a whole. It's incredibly privileged but business is what I love.
And then, you know, as a transit, you know, and then you start the sinister side, the drug dealing. You realize if you have the best product at the best price, you're to make the most money. so, yeah, you know, so, you know, I talk to people about the fact that the streets taught me business, because not only that is the streets are very dangerous and they're very unforgiving. And it's easy to see bullshit on the street. And so walking into a boardroom,
is just as easy. Is that you start seeing people start, they're telling you about this great thing and they start twisting their roaches and playing with their wedding rings and I'm like, I don't trust you now. Why aren't you telling me the truth? You know, because my hands are on the table, you can see my hand of cards. And you know, so I learned to navigate business with a lens from the city. I think I find
you're your curiosity Resilience right now because to be a bit to start a business you have to be resilient. Yeah now I want to talk about the just you know, this joint venture thing that Aboriginal like to finish it myself and a very good friend of mine Have started a rendering
and it is 51 % majority owned Aboriginal. I knew nothing about rendering, but I've known him. I've watched him build the success of his business. And I said to him, what do you think about a joint venture business between yourself and me as, know, looking at opportunities where there are contracts to be awarded, where they have to spend on Aboriginal spend.
But I'm only doing this on the conditions that we employ kids that have come from prison or we employ people that have been homeless. So we do it for profit, but with a social conscience. That's the reason why the procurement place was put in place was because it was supposed to employ Aboriginal people at a 10 times greater rate than non-Indian. And so a story like what you're sharing, not employing any Aboriginal.
I see so many of these businesses not impacting the communities they're supposed to have come from. And that's what my interpretation of that whole policy was, which it should be paying forward to the Aboriginal community.
we Have to be the ones responsible for calling this out because otherwise as a white person you're gonna get called a racist and that's not what you are
Like you're like, this doesn't look right. Are you really, you if you the question, she's a racist. No, no, no. She had the right to ask. All right. So tell me about your Aboriginal business. Like how many Aboriginal employees have you got? You know, where are guys from? What impact have you made on community? I can tell you, you know, like
from us at Native Arts, the joint venture business, was one of the first joint venture businesses that I legitimately set up, is that we've done the majority of our work on Palm Island. We've sponsored the community rugby league carnivals. We've sponsored the junior rugby league carnivals. We've sponsored, so there's a lot of social impact that we have. And that's where the benefits should be.
and I will keep calling out, I'm like, what are you really doing? Are you really an Aboriginal business? Because I don't see any impact you're making on our communities. And I certainly know that, you know, there's a couple, you know, like there's an Aboriginal, you know, maintenance, cleaning maintenance company, Mulfana.
You know, and Aboriginal Joe Wallace is the partner of the 51 percent, but he's out there. He's employing Aboriginal people. He's doing the contract. He's winning the contracts, but delivering the work at the highest standard and giving Aboriginal people the opportunity to work. Shaping Australia Group, you know, they're a civil engineering. They're doing they're winning the contract and they're employing Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander. They're having an impact on community. So they are, you know, you've got John Kirby and like there are phenomenal businesses
Adam Saroda and Bridgmans, know, know, Adam Saroda played for the Socceroos, you know, he used the wealth he attained as a football player to acquire a business, Bridgmans. He now is winning contracts in the education space, but he's employing Aboriginal people. He's providing an impact. Now that what...
What we know is that good Aboriginal business will alleviate poverty because we'll go into Logan's Woodridges, I'll say with the kids, you want to learn how to spray paint? Come work with me. And they're like, what do you mean? I'm like, we're going to spray paint that whole highway. And are we allowed? I'm like, yeah, we're actually going to get paid for it.
And not only that, no vandalism happens in the community because now the kids that were doing the vandalism protect the pieces of artwork as part of it. So the social return is so much greater because there's social investment.
whupping them up the back of the head, clipping them, calling them, you're nothing but a problem, nothing but a problem. If you get told you're a problem, you're going to be a problem. And that's the big thing. So, you know, like I love the procurement policy when it's done well. But I agree with it. was just, it was just. the thing that irks you is the same thing that irks me. Yeah. And that's good because again, it's an ignorance of the understanding of even what it was about. Because I had a
preconceived conception of what I thought it should be, is turns out was right.
So yeah, I I love the impact I can have as a result of building business. And there's several, because for me, I have my business, Jeremy Donovan, the public speaking side, the consultancy, which is all of me.
I then have Native Arts, which is the mural based business, doing the public installations and with myself and Maddy Tupaya. I then have a business which I've just started, which is called Feathers of Freedom, which is about men's healing. So it's going into Aboriginal communities and it's around looking at domestic violence and how do we have an impact as men on the impacts of Aboriginal, of domestic violence in our communities, not just Aboriginal communities, but men.
Men need to be leading the conversations on this. know, you know, that right now women are losing, men are subjected to domestic violence. And I've seen horrific counts of it, but men are not losing their life directly as a result of physical impacts of men, you know, like women do.
Men tragically are taking their own lives with mental health as a result of, know, especially the family courts, like, you know, like some of that, you know, drives men to all sorts of crazy, you know, know, spaces in their mind. But physically. Men hurt women when they when they're violent. Emotionally, women hurt men when they're in those.
So there's that. And then there's the Cal Kill Group, you know, which is the rendering, you which has the, you know, so and then I have Centurions, which is the online platform.
which is an online platform that I run with myself, Tahira, Nareno, he's a Maori person based up here on the Gold Coast. then Tops, who is based over in Dubai, was a Serbian refugee. And we run an online men's program that we've just been building over time, which is fantastic because I love helping men. I look around our society,
And while I'm certainly not a perfect representation of, I don't even know what a man's should or shouldn't be really. You know, I have a concept of it. Yeah, I have good values. And but I see so many lost. And I also see young men that are exploring masculinity in really toxic ways. I see young men that are willing to do self work at a very early age today.
You know, so young men at 18, 19, 20 are talking about mindset, talking about, you know, and I love that. So how do we lead them in a way that is really functioning and really positive so they're not taken advantage of? Like, so you don't just get subjected to really misogynistic views like Andrew Tate, you know, like, and I'm not saying there's some things that I really like that Andrew Tate has said.
But I wouldn't watch it because there are other things that I simply cannot stand. And so therefore I can't pick and choose what I've decided that no, he's not for me because I don't believe in that. So I can't believe in any of it. And it was the same thing as a business person with Andrew Forrest. I'm sorry.
I don't believe in your view on this, so I can't believe in any of it. And that's the reason why I resigned from Andrew, that he taught me everything I needed to know about business. He also showed me everything I wasn't as a man. And that was how I resigned. That's very good self-awareness too, instead of like going into an environment.
And I did like I drank the Kool-Aid for a while like and Andrew is amazingly charismatic Andrew Forest like and he sweeps you up, know, you know, imagine me like like at 28 28
You want to come on my private jet? I'm like, let's go. Like, and before I knew it, I was flying on, you know, on I was flying on the prime minister's planes, you know, because Andrew afforded me that opportunity. You know, grateful for the opportunity. But it's, you know, for a little while I sat and drank from the Kool-Aid and then I went, now I'm compromising my integrity and I couldn't do that. The moment you compromise your integrity, you can't sleep at night.
And that hurt, that's where I had to go, well, that's enough. Yeah. But it damaged me, the addiction, all of those sort of things. I'm incredibly grateful for the life I live today, like right now, because I am, and I always say to my now partner, even though we've gone through our challenges, you're still getting the best version of me that's ever been.
I'm healthy, I'm sober, I'm training, I'm fit, I'm busy. And the busier I am, the better the world is. Because you're paying it forward
I'm an ambassador for the Australian Literacy and Numeracy Foundation and their their catch on the front of the shirts we wear is literacy is freedom because yeah, you so, you know, which is amazing because literacy, you know, as someone that struggles with dyslexia and you know, and reading and writing was not always writing was easy because I was great memory, right? So if you've got a good memory, you can spell
And so I was always phenomenal at spelling because I've got a good memory. then the other, you know, so writing, I was an artist, right? So I'm very, like my handwriting is very, it's like calligraphy. It looks like an artwork. And, you know, but reading is difficult. You know, so I love that. That charity is my, of all the charities that I'm involved in, the Australian Literacy and Numeracy Foundation is phenomenal. It puts a book in a kid's hand.
And that's something that I've watched the joy of my kids. And I was never, I could never put it, but I could live the joy through them reading.
I've been really busy this week, it's NAIDOC week. I've had quite a lot of like keynotes. And I spoke about the crash and the burn and the fall of Jeremy Donovan, you know, this, you know, that went from NITV to, you know, on the Kuru Mount to all of a sudden, where is he? You know, and now he started to appear again. And I spoke about it for the fact that the beauty of knowledge, never lose it.
And so even when you lose everything financially, don't lose your knowledge. So people said, someone said to me, was it hard to bounce back? But no, you always had the knowledge about what was. And that's what I'll never lose. And then there's drive, as long as you've got knowledge and drive.
So what does legacy, what is your rocking chair, Jeremiah, with a on your face going? It's it's still, you know, it's I've had this dream. For a long time, I think probably since my first son.
was born in 2002. And my dream is that one day I will have grandkids. Probably getting closer. So it might not be in my first grandchild's life, but maybe in one of them. That my grandkids will jump up on my lap and I will tell them about...
the disparity or the poverty or the inequality or the racism that I experienced in my life. And they will look at me in disbelief because they will. But that's what drives me. That's what I hope they experience. And so I know it's a glass half full attitude. The other part is when I think about legacy, so I talk about this a lot.
there will come a time where I'm dead and where I die. And I don't know when that is.
I hope that, you know, and I know from what I've said, I want to be cremated, you like, but there'll be a time where I have a funeral and I want the room to be full of people who can say, my kids, impacted their life, some way or not, I helped them, I impacted, I inspired them. That's it. But that's that's what my legacy, I want it to be is at some point.
we came, we connected, I had an impact on life. I want the room to be full of people like that. And it's, that's what drives me, to have an impact on another person's life. And I had the conversation this morning in the car park at the gym. I pulled up and there was a guy that was clearly homeless living in his car. So I got out, took my time.
And I reflected on the really hard times I've in life of homelessness, of poverty, addiction. I was like, how long have you been living in your car today? He was so shocked. was like, oh, since October. He's like, are you OK? He was worried that I was upset that he was in the car park of the gym. And I was like, no, but I know what that feels like. He's like,
Like, oh, I thought you're going to tell me to move or like, he's not making any like he was so apologetic without needing to be apologetic. I bother have you eaten? I was like, have you eaten today? He's like, no, but I got some snacks for my dog. you know, and I was like. I was like, here, I only have thirty dollars. was like, I've got thirty bucks and he wouldn't accept. I was like, no, no, no, I'm going to put it on your windscreen. I don't care what you do with it.
Because this is one of the things that really shits me sometimes, is like, I see people being generous, like with the homeless community, they're like, I'll give you this, but don't buy drugs or alcohol. No, no, no. If they need to buy drugs or alcohol, they need to buy drugs. Don't tell them what they can, don't give them that and tell them what they can do with it.
You know, hopefully the gesture they buy the food. But the reality, I've seen so many homeless and you see it like these social projects online where, you know, someone gives up, you know, buys a pizza and then they share it with all the other homeless. They're so generous. People with nothing share the most. And, you know, so but, you know, like I gave this guy 30 bucks. I told him, you know what, brother, I hope it gets easier. I'm not going to promise you a will. I hope it will. I hope it does. I said it did for me. I remember my son's 18th birthday.
I gave him a car for his birthday, but I didn't have enough money for him to have an 18th birthday. So we pawned his car at a pawn shop to get enough money to put a birthday party on. And I knew that I'd be able to make the money back, to buy it back. I know what it's like to have nothing and to lose everything and then to be able to make it back again. And you know what, was halfway through my gym session and this guy came into the gym.
And he would have had to convince the staff at the gym that he was looking for me. And I spoke to the lady at the front desk, was, what are you saying? No, no, I need to give this to someone that I met in Car Park. So he had, look, I don't even know where he got it from. But he had like a really nice, like, drink bottle that had never been used.
He brought it in and he's like, I don't have much anything to give you in return. you can you didn't have a water. He's like, I noticed you didn't have a water bottle going into the gym. I was like, but I like I didn't give you a gift to get a gift. And he was and I was like. I was like, just remember this like. You will get more love from a perfect stranger you've known than someone you've your whole life. They want you to succeed, but not as much as.
But a perfect stranger will often want you to. I had nothing. I just really hoped that one day he's out of his car and has a home.
You're doing it. You're living the life, Jeremiah, where you are paying it. I see it. I see it online. Just talking to you. And in your passion, passion for culture.
That's it. I love people. I love people too. And I can just feel that with you where you're just like, just want you to be happy, you to be, you be, and do the right thing. And just, and then everything works,
This is a brand new tattoo. this is all, this is my artwork. Go this way, go this way. Or it's the beginning of a dot painting on my art. So it's the whole story is my whole dreaming story. So there's an owl that is carrying a didgeridoo.
There is, you know, this is, on my 40th birthday I had a clock tattooed on my hand with the word Mavita, which is my life. You know, because, you know, I'm only going to give time to people that value my time. And then you have the crocodile, the saltwater crocodile, and then up here you have a red-tailed cockatoo, and then up here you have a boomerang. So it's a big story of my life about all the things that are important. And then I've just started filling all the spare skin will be filled in with dots, which is
of my artworks and the lady is tracing my artwork onto on my hand so it was painstaking these dots. yeah.
That's dedication. That's dedication. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for being so open and honest.