Fat Shamming | The Guy Who Corrupted the U.S. Navy

In this episode, Caleb and Greg discuss the saga of “Fat Leonard,” a contractor slash concierge slash fixer slash pimp for the United States Navy.

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Greg Kyte, CPA
Twitter: https://twitter.com/gregkyte
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Caleb Newquist
Twitter: https://twitter.com/cnewquist
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/calebnewquist/

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Sources: 

Fat Leonard Scandal — Wikipedia

Fat Leonard Podcast - XPRX Project Brazen
Fat Leonard: Malaysian criminal in US Navy scandal recaptured after jail break — BBC
Trials are finally wrapping up in the 'Fat Leonard' bribery case — NPR
U.S. Navy Admiral Sentenced To Prison In Bribery Scandal — NPR
Prostitutes, vacations and cash: The Navy officials ‘Fat Leonard’ took down - Washington Post

Penalties for Adultery — Military Law Center

DoD rules on gifts — U.S. Army

Creators & Guests

Host

Caleb Newquist

Writer l Content at @GustoHQ | Co-host @ohmyfraud | Founding editor @going_concern | Former @CCDedu prof | @JeffSymphony board member | Trying to pay attention.

Host

Greg Kyte, CPA

Mega-pastor of @comedychurch and the de facto worlds greatest accounting cartoonist.

What is Oh My Fraud?

"Oh My Fraud" is an irreverent podcast from CPA/comedian Greg Kyte and blogger/former CPA Caleb Newquist.

The two come together to unpack their favorite frauds and explore the circumstances, psychology, and interpersonal dynamics involved. They also fully indulge in victim-blaming the defrauded widows, orphans, infirm and feeble-minded—because who can resist?

If you fancy yourself a trusted advisor—or prefer your true crime with spreadsheets instead of corpses—listen to this show to learn what to watch out for to keep your clients, your firm, and even yourself safe.

Oh My Fraud #30 [Final]

Speaker1: [00:00:00] If you'd like to earn CPE credit for listening to this episode, visit earmark Cpcomm. Download the app, take a short quiz and get your CPE certificate. Continuing education has never been so easy. And now on to the episode.

Speaker2: [00:00:24] This is Oh My Fraud, a true Crime podcast where if our story includes a prostitute, that prostitute is going to live. We haven't lost a sex worker yet. I'm Greg Kite. And I'm Caleb Newquist. So, Caleb, I wanted to start today's episode by reading a very nice review that we got on Apple Podcasts, if I may. Go ahead. Thank you. So check this out. The username was Yo mang 256 and Yo Mang 256 says Great podcast with great explanations and great selection of frauds, all with a sarcastic sense of humor that I can jive with. I like that they focus on some of the lesser known frauds. The stories are well told and have a great take on the accounting principles involved. Keep them coming and thanks for the content. Well, that's nice and cool. Thanks. Yo, man. 256 We love it when people love us. Love us. Know love us and leave us a review. Love us. Love us. And leave a review on Apple or Spotify or America Online. You know, wherever you can leave reviews on podcasts. We love it when y'all do that. And, you know, if you if you leave a review like that, then maybe Greg will read it on a future episode and that's got to be worth something. I'd hope it'd be worth something to somebody. My mom's going to start leaving reviews just because she. Oh, yeah, because that's. Thanks. Thanks. Greg's mom. Maybe. Maybe her username is yo Ming 256. I don't know. I don't keep up with that kind of stuff.

Speaker2: [00:01:59] But anyways, enough with the shameless self promotion. Let's get into today's case. And to do that, I was wondering, Caleb, what foreign countries have you visited and Canada doesn't count? Wait, why doesn't Canada count? Because it's just. It's basically North Dakota. Oh, I mean, but you get a stamp in your passport. That's true. You do, but you don't get one when you go to North Dakota. No, but no one cares about your stamp for Canada. That's why that's why you're not going to be at the party and pull out your passport and say, Hey, guys, check this out. Canada Entry Point, Vancouver. Okay. Fair. All right. Yes, Canada. Mexico. I had to write them down. Mexico. Jamaica. Cayman Islands. Nicaragua. Scotland. England. Iceland. Ireland, Italy, France, Spain and the Netherlands. And I might be missing one, but like, that's so basically, you know, North America and Europe. That's what I got. Yeah, that's. That's a pretty exotic list. Uh, for me, I don't know if exotic is the word I would use, but anyway, what I do want to know where you've been, Greg. It is to me. So besides Canada, I've been to Mexico, I've been to Columbia, South America, and I've been to the Philippines. That's it. Oh, the US and for for foreign countries. And that's even if you do include Canada. You know what, though? You know what, though? You got three continents. Good point. You've got three continents, too. Too. I mean, it depends on how you classify Central America.

Speaker2: [00:03:30] That's what I was just going to say. Yeah. But yeah, I think I think technically, I think according to the risk Board, Central America is part of North America. So probably I think you're right. But as as has been established, if I just may raise one important point, I think we've pretty well established that our geography is for shit on this show. So yeah, if there's an error, it's in there. Yeah, it's it's, you know, I'm sure there's an error of some kind. Yeah. And my, my geography is based mostly on the game of risk. So if I cite Kamchatka or Siam, that's, that's the reason why. Um, but when you were in your foreign countries that you were in, were you, were you aware while you were there, were you aware of any bribery that transpired on your trip, either in your party or adjacent to your party? And were you ever offered any drugs or prostitutes? Um. Bribery. Not that I can recall, you know, tipping like, especially, like, in, you know, it just depends on the culture, right? Like tipping is, you know, helpful. So whether that's a bribe or not is a matter of context, I suppose, but not like hardcore bribery, where I'm like, if if I give you $100, will I stay out of jail? Like nothing like that. Right. And as far as the other questions, I have been offered drugs in many places, both domestic and abroad. And I've sought drugs in many places, both domestic and abroad.

Speaker2: [00:05:06] And I've been propositioned a few times, both domestic and abroad. So but the actually that comes to mind, at least abroad, the sex workers on La Rambla in Barcelona were especially persistent, as I recall. But then, you know, you go to the Netherlands where you don't have to seek out drugs or sex. They're just kind of around like everywhere, right? I mean, and maybe everywhere is a bit of a stretch, but it's, you know, stuff's easy to find. Gotcha. You. You again, you seem like you've lived a much more exotic life than me. I'm one of those people who the dare program primed me for a lot more drugs to be offered to me than have ever been offered to me. Uh, and. And I can't say I've ever been solicited by a prostitute, ever. But then again, I'm also very clueless too. So maybe it happened and somebody was like, Do you like to party? And I'm like, Totally, okay, see ya. Have fun at your party. Yeah, that's. Yeah, yeah, that's. That's not that's not beyond the realm of possibility that that happened more than once. But here's here's what's happened to me while I've traveled abroad in my most recent trip to Mexico. And mind you, I was wearing proudly wearing a Schoolhouse Rock t shirt. I was offered heroin, which I thought was was like, no, like somehow clue in to who you who you're talking to. Because again, probably, probably the dude rocking the Schoolhouse Rock t shirt, probably not really shooting up in the back alleyways.

Speaker2: [00:06:44] Um, in terms of bribery, I do have an interesting story about that. Way back when I was in high school, I went, I went on one of those church like service project mission trips where we all get in the church bus and drive across the country to two town border towns in Mexico. And we, you know, build a house for a person who we don't know how they were selected, but they were and they got a house that for most of us, middle class kids in the United States was just like a really nice shed. So so the first one of those, I went on several of those. It was weird. The very first one I went on, the guy who led the trip told us that he had to bribe the the Border Patrol, the Mexican Border Patrol, to get us into Mexico. And so, you know, so he he bribed he bribed the Mexican Border Patrol for Jesus. And I respected that. Yeah. Yeah. Bribing for the Lord. I'm. I'm all about it. And then and then more recently, just this last December, I went to the Philippines, and I was not once but twice asked by, you know, and two very different circumstances if I was interested in prostitutes, which was a little disconcerting. Oh, I mean, are you interested in prostitutes? No. For the third. For the third, including both those people in the Philippines for the third time, including, you know, I'm not here.

Speaker2: [00:08:19] Listen, here's what here's what this This was an honest interaction, okay? I was I was riding on the back of a scooter, and this guy was taking me to, like, the shopping district in this town that I was in in the Philippines. Okay. So already it was it felt like a compromising situation. So I give him that. So we're so I'm on the back of a stranger's scooter. He's he's driving me to the to the shopping center. And he's like, so, hey, where's your where's your where's your wife? And I was like, oh, I'm not well, I'm not married, But I didn't get into that. But I was like, Right. I was like, Well, I got to go. I didn't get into all my details. I was like, She didn't. She couldn't come. And he was like, Oh, do you want me to take you to some girls? And I was like, No, I don't. And then he said, boys. And I was like, No, I'm no. I'm naturally like, literally, this is this is literally what I said. I said I said, No, I am very happy in the relationship that I am in right now. I said those words to this man riding his scooter with me, and I was very out of place, especially riding on the back of a scooter. And my assumption, though, is that there's enough like douchebag Americans that go to the Philippines that like sex tourism kind of stuff, which just does not sit well with me at all.

Speaker2: [00:09:40] But it must happen enough to where people are assuming that if you're if you're a single middle aged man in the Philippines or going, I know what this guy is here for, let's let's give him what he wants. Yeah, right. So, hey, yeah, but I enjoyed that story, but I enjoyed that story very much. Not sure it'll make the cut, but I enjoyed that story. Well, it better make the cut because bribes and prostitutes are integral to our story today. Because bribes and prostitutes were used to corrupt pretty much the entire United States Navy. I mean, not technically the entire I mean, it wasn't the entire Navy. But but when we get into the story, it's definitely going to feel like it was the entire Navy. All right. Our story centers on Leonard Glenn Francis, who grew up on the island of Penang. Am I saying that right? Yeah. Penang. Correct. Penang in Malaysia. Leonard's a big guy. People figured he weighed somewhere between 350 and 400 pounds. And I know this is America, and I'm no judgment, but that's on the big side. So, yeah, no offense to anyone that's on the that's even on the big side for Texas. So. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So hence Fat Leonard. All right. So we're going to Fat Leonard is our man. Okay. The family business. That's what he was known as. That's right. Everybody called him that. Everybody called him Fat Leonard.

Speaker2: [00:11:12] And he worked in the family business. And that family business was supplying merchant ships with food and fuel. We're going to we're going to run through a few things here real quick. So first, his mom left. His dad and his dad was lazy, kind of jerk piece of shit. Really not a good guy. He was not kind of he was this guy was a total piece of shit. Yeah. Total, total, total. Scuzzball. Okay. Yeah. And so, Leonard, I mean, he was. He was abusive. He was abusive. He was a he was philandering, like, and didn't even care. Like he would bring girlfriends to the family home while mom and kids were around. Yeah. Okay, So, yeah, whatever label you had for that guy, take it up a couple extra notches. Yeah, whatever that label was, replace it with. With lazy drunk piece of shit. Yeah. There you go. So Leonard, as a teen ended up being kind of the de facto head of this family business again, because his dad is a lazy, drunk piece of shit. And part of running this type of business in Malaysia in the 1980s included paying bribes to local officials. And if I understand it correctly, that's just kind of how business gets done. It isn't like corrupt fashion, right? Is it's kind of the fabric of commerce in a way, right? Is that fair to say? It is. I think that's fair to say. And I think that there's two things at play there, because I do believe in in emerging economies, you're going to be you're going to find more bribes being required in that setting.

Speaker2: [00:12:52] But also, I don't know what it is about like like ports. But for some reason, ports is like mafia. Yeah, that's like that breeds mafia and mafia type interactions. So it's I got I was thinking it was a combination of both of those things. Yeah. So part of the other stuff that young Fat Leonard was doing was he was he'd buddy up with, you know, sailors that would come through the ports who liked, you know, booze and some action, some ladies. And so he made those connections. And then somewhere along the line, he also started associating with some sordid characters who were part of the Chinese gang called the Triads. And that's made a turn in Leonard's life because when Fat Leonard was 21, he was recruited by some of the triads to be a getaway driver for an armed robbery that they had planned. So he wasn't he wasn't wielding a gun. He was sitting behind the wheel of the car and they pulled off this armed robbery. They stole a lot of money and they got away with it. And Leonard's cut. So it was they stole this money from Leonard in an account. I heard of him speaking himself. They stole from what he described as money changers. So the Triads kept all the local currency, and Leonard's cut was all the foreign currency. And they also gave him all the guns, which was an interesting part When I first heard that I was going, That's weird that his cut was the guns that they that the other people used in the armed robbery.

Speaker2: [00:14:37] But what it turned out happening was that not long after the heist, Leonard was apprehended by the police, they went to his house, they found the guns, they found the money. And Leonard went to prison. And here's the crazy fact. Gun possession in Malaysia at that time was a capital offense. It was Caleb. It was just having a gun was punishable by hanging in Malaysia. So Leonard didn't just get busted. Leonard was on. All of a sudden, 21 year old Fat Leonard on death row, man. And obviously he's distraught, doesn't know what the hell he's going to do. He's turning to every deity that he knows of. Like, literally he talks about this where he's like, you know, he's covering his bases with his prayers and his mom comes and somehow and. It's a little unclear how she was able to make this happen. And maybe this is just because I'm sort of superimposing like a united an understanding of like the United States judicial system on this. But his mom was able to plead on his behalf before the authorities for his life. And she actually, you know, through tears and through, you know, saying he's a good boy and he was just hanging out with bad people. She convinced the authorities to release Fat Leonard and he escaped the cold clutches of death.

Speaker3: [00:16:09] After getting out of jail, he was back to work for Fat Leonard. It's worth noting at this point that Fat Leonard was this big. Big. Do we mention big? Yeah, we mentioned big.

Speaker2: [00:16:20] Yeah. Okay. Fat Leonard's a big guy.

Speaker3: [00:16:22] A big guy? Yeah, but he's. He's also a gregarious guy. So likable. Right? Fun to be around. And, yeah, he's kind of got this ambiguous racial look to him. Scottish, Sri Lankan, Portuguese. That, you.

Speaker2: [00:16:38] Know. But then he speaks perfect English.

Speaker3: [00:16:40] Okay. American English and no detectable accent. Right. And so using his parents connections, he kind of, you know, weaseled his way into this 4th of July party at a US embassy, and he started schmoozing with some US dignitaries. He built relationships and began acting like their kind of their personal concierge. And he hooked important people up with meals at the best restaurants. And he scheduled appointments with like very sought after tailors for some sick threads.

Speaker2: [00:17:18] Right, right, right. Again, that's a weird thing. That's what that's part of the account is that there were people, dignitaries in the US, in these foreign countries and it's like, I got to get this tailor, where's this one tailor? And he's like, I can get you with that tailor. And like, you're the best fat. Leonard Right.

Speaker3: [00:17:39] And it is it is a bigger deal than kind of it sounds like because, you know, you're talking he's dealing with Americans who have no language skills for this part of the world. Right. And so he's he's providing a service and he's making it very easy. And so the schmoozing really pays off. And then he secures a contract with the US Navy supplying smaller ships with fuel and other stuff that they need. And that that brings forth the Glenn Defense Marine Asia Company. That was his company.

Speaker2: [00:18:20] Right, which seemed like a very easy step from supplying. He was supplying. Merchant ships with his family business. And he just pivoted to to some lucrative and, you know, everybody knows that if you get a government contract you struck gold. So he just pivoted from what he knew to the next thing that was a better thing through giving these people some, you know, through through, you know, grease and some wheels with these people. Right. Right. And it's interesting at this point to note none of the stuff he did, none of the stuff that's accounted for in the research that I did up to this point would be considered bribery. If you got if you if you gave somebody and it didn't say if he just like got people like into these meals. My my the way I read it was that he actually paid for some very nice meals at the best restaurants for these people. But then also just scheduling appointments for like helping people get in with a tailor that's not none of that. Stuff's like bribery, that's all. Just it's schmoozing, I think schmoozing.

Speaker3: [00:19:24] And I think that's called A. I think that's called a favor.

Speaker2: [00:19:27] Right, Right, exactly. And and it's also called having hustle. A lot of it's just this dude had a lot of hustle. Yeah, right on. So at this point, since he got this Navy contract, we do need to give a little bit more context for what the Navy is all about. I Do you have any, like military family or friends? Close friends, Caleb Not.

Speaker3: [00:19:53] Like National Guard stuff, but no, no one that I can recall. That served like overseas or anything like that. At least an uncle or two that served in the National Guard and a cousin or two that like did ROTC and National Guard and stuff like that.

Speaker2: [00:20:12] Yeah, my friend's father served actually both in the Army and in the Marines. But personally, I had a buddy who went into the Navy who who was who was the best man at my wedding for my failed marriage. So that's, you know, but that was before he was in the Navy. So, yeah, everything's very tangential for me. But so so I didn't I didn't know a lot of the stuff. Maybe people who are more familiar with, especially with the Navy, know this stuff. But here's kind of a primer on the Navy. And that is and I thought this was so interesting. The Navy is amazing at doing what the Navy does when they're at sea. They they have a weakness. And that weakness is when they have to land at a non US military port overseas because in those cases they just have to dock. They need some supplies, you know, and they and they plan this stuff out. But they'll they'll have to go there. But again, if it's not a US military base or a US military port or even some sort of US port that they're overseas, that they're they're docking at, they're at the mercy of contractors that they find to help them get the stuff they need. People like Fat Leonard and they need everything from, you know, we already talked food and fuel, but some other things that I was unaware of, The Navy vessel gets into this port. They apparently they don't even have their own dinghies to get them from the ship to the shore. So part of what these contractors do is they supply people their stories about how the locals would hire turtle fishermen in the turtle, fishermen's boats and the turtle fishermen would would just shuttle the guys back and forth from shore to the boat. And otherwise they'd have to swim thing they. Right, Right. And you know, one thing you know about Navy guys can't swim.

Speaker3: [00:21:59] Yeah. Afraid of the.

Speaker2: [00:22:00] Water. Horrible At swimming.

Speaker3: [00:22:01] Terrified. Yeah. Terrified.

Speaker2: [00:22:03] Yeah. But the other thing, and this was something I. It makes perfect sense once it was pointed out. But these ships, when you're out at sea, there's no fresh water. So these ships have these gigantic tanks just to hold fresh water. And when they get into port, they just need someone to supply them with fresh water. So they they they have all the needs to keep a bunch of humans alive while they're out in the middle of the ocean for a long, long time. Fat Leonard was people, Fat Leonard and people like Fat Leonard were the people that they need. So then add that to the fact that in 1991, the the Philippines, the country where I've been to, kicked the US out of their naval base at Subic Bay. And so the Navy needed some other similar port in that same geographic region. So Leonard already having some connections and some success with the Navy, he decided he was going to open up a port in Bali, Indonesia, specifically to serve US Navy vessels who were being displaced out of the Philippines. So again, dude's got hustle and as I mentioned earlier, part of Fat Leonard doing Fat Leonard's job in Southeast Asia included greasing palms and greasing wheels with bribes and gifts and services, like we said.

Speaker2: [00:23:26] But what started happening is Fat Leonard increasingly started applying those same necessary tactics in that part of the world. These marketing techniques, if you will. He started applying those to the Navy, so he started giving money, just cash to Navy, to sailors and officers in the Navy. He started giving them Michelin star meals, high end hotel rooms, high end booze, Cuban cigars, and most notably and most scandalously, prostitutes. And he gave that to anybody in the Navy that he thought he offered those to anybody in the Navy that he thought was a decision maker or an influencer, like someone who someone who had the power to direct, who could say, you know, we do need to we do need to dock somewhere over there in Southeast Asia. I know a guy. Let's head over to that guy. That that that swell guy, Fat Leonard, who's over there in Bali and and in Malaysia and and so that's that's what he started doing. And another fun another fun fact didn't know this before but again makes perfect sense. Sailors in the US Navy can be punished for accepting any gifts of value larger than 20 bucks. So if he gave $21 of cash, that's obviously more value than $20.

Speaker3: [00:24:47] So so if I'm in New York City and I'm walking around and it happens to be Fleet Week and I see a I see a sailor cruising the city and I just give him a Starbucks gift card for. 25 bucks and then he.

Speaker2: [00:25:02] Court martialed me a favor. That's a court martial. Yeah. And then he doesn't even need to do you a favor. Or maybe it's a.

Speaker3: [00:25:09] Woman, but she gets in trouble.

Speaker2: [00:25:11] Yeah. And no favors required in terms of reciprocation. They just can't receive the gift. It's like this. So before even becoming an accountant was on my radar, I had a really good friend in college who she. She became a CPA. She started working for Ernst and Young out in Seattle. And one of her one of her clients, one of our audit clients was, was re you know, do you know the retailer, the outdoor retailer REI? I do. So my friend was working an audit for REI and I said, I bet you they give you some sweet swag while you're working this audit at REI. And she was offended at that question. And she because again, I wasn't I wasn't an accountant at this point, like I said, wasn't even on my radar. And she was like, heavens, no, I, I couldn't take a I couldn't take anything from an audit client because that would impair my independence. And you think about that with the because again, it does make sense when you step back and you think about it, the Navy has got to be very concerned about their their sailors and their officers being corrupted by foreign by any. And again, we even write and we talk about like in the accounting profession, we talk about independence and the in in what is it in reality and in truth and appearance, whatever it is.

Speaker3: [00:26:34] Phrase fact, fact in appearance.

Speaker2: [00:26:36] That's it. Fact in appearance I teach ethics and I couldn't dig that phrase out the so but the same thing seems like it would apply to the Navy where they'd be like, Our officers need to not be double agents in fact and appearance. So they're like, you can't you can't receive anything over $25. Now you also bring up a point. How how well is that enforced? Probably not. So I don't know, because, again, if Leonard's handed out Cuban cigars, I'm going to guess every single one of those Cuban cigars is worth more than 20 bucks. And I if I was somebody in the Navy, I'd just take this Cuban cigar and go, Thanks, buddy, and smoke it. And I don't think I'd worry too much about getting court martialed for it. So but to continue with our story, not only was Fat Leonard like in terms of the legitimate work that Fat Leonard did, not only was he a supplier to the Navy, he was also a fixer for the Navy. He did a lot of dirty work, like things that were expected by foreign countries, like in the context and the business environment of these foreign countries. And it's stuff that the US Navy couldn't or didn't want to do. Like I said, it's dirty work, a lot of bribes and using Leonard to do that stuff was a way of getting this necessary free, albeit dirty work done without the Navy having to feel like it was doing the dirty work because they just say, Hey, get this stuff done, here's a bunch of money. And they were like, Don't. We don't need to know how you get it done. Walking around.

Speaker3: [00:28:15] Makes sense. Yeah, walking around money. It's like you need some walking around money to do some of these things, I'm sure. So here's some walking around.

Speaker2: [00:28:21] Yeah, yeah. It's like, just. Just bill us and we don't need to see. We don't need to see the line items for your budgets that include, you know, how much money was used for for shakedowns and intimidation and how much was used for bribery. Just just get it done, get the job done. They're an independent contractor, so.

Speaker3: [00:28:39] Yeah, so fat. Fat Leonard is like Ray Donovan, essentially.

Speaker2: [00:28:43] Okay. You know that show that I haven't watched, but I think I know Ray Donovan kick some ass.

Speaker3: [00:28:49] Yeah, he's a fixer. Hollywood fixer. Yeah. Okay. It's a show about a Hollywood fixer.

Speaker2: [00:28:53] Yeah. Okay, so he was dirty work. Well, dirty work. And here's the thing. Leonard's dirty work didn't just include shaking people down and give him bribes. Leonard's fixing also included getting sailors out of trouble when they got in trouble in these foreign ports. Everything from getting sailors out of trouble for getting in fights to getting sailors out of trouble when those sailors committed sexual assault. So this is where it starts getting a little bit gross and a little bit uncomfortable. He would pay off both officials who tried to to try to hold these these wayward sailors to account. And he would even pay off victims just to say here's some money. So how about this never happened? And he did that all in an effort to keep the Navy's operational tempo humming along while they were at these foreign ports and all of this stuff that Leonard did, it's clear that he was really, really good. He was very effective at what he did. There was never a time. Where it was like he wasn't giving them like top notch service. And and because of that, the Navy, um, he, he made the Navy's shitty and stressful stops at foreign ports. Hassle free for these naval officers.

Speaker3: [00:30:19] On October 12th, 2000, the USS Cole was refueling in Yemen. In a small fiberglass boat carrying two men in over 400 pounds of plastic explosives, approached the Cole and exploded, as that's what explosives do. This suicide attack killed two men in the boat and 17 US sailors and injured 37 more. And thus began rampant defense spending to protect US troops, which was supercharged less than a year later when the September 11th terrorist attacks occurred.

Speaker2: [00:30:58] And as a direct result of the attack on the Cole. The Navy wanted and needed and demanded increased protection for its boats in these foreign ports, because that's exactly the context in which the USS Cole was attacked.

Speaker3: [00:31:16] May I may I ask you something about that? Because I just I have to imagine. Please. The boats were probably just sitting out there, Right? It's like, oh, there's a big boat. There's a big boat out there. If anybody wanted to. Now, obviously, given the what happened to the coal, anybody could just. Cruise on up and like and they're just sitting out there just bobbing along so. Okay. Yeah. Right.

Speaker2: [00:31:41] And well and, and which is weird. I mean the USS Cole. Yeah it is. I mean, 20 years on and.

Speaker3: [00:31:47] More than 20 years on, it seems weird. It's like, oh yeah, I would think it would be guarded quite heavily.

Speaker2: [00:31:55] Yeah, you do. But then you also wonder how that would happen, because I would think like, let's say you're in this crowded port, there's going to be other boats going around you. Sure. I mean, again, this is from a guy who doesn't know so much what he's talking about. But I would assume that you're going to you're not going to be the only boat in that port. There's going to be other people going around with you. You're the US Navy. And if somebody just gets a little too close to you, do you blow them out of the water and just say, We told you to stop coming closer to us because that's going to be a PR nightmare for.

Speaker3: [00:32:26] Maybe a slight overreaction by the US Navy in that case.

Speaker2: [00:32:31] It does, but it wouldn't have in this case, right, Knowing that there was 400 pounds of 400 plus pounds of plastic explosive and a and a terrorist and a suicide. Yeah. Attack that was coming your way. So in hindsight. So anyways, so it's definitely a dilemma. It's clearly a problem and a dilemma that the US Navy had in my mind.

Speaker3: [00:32:51] But it's an opportunity. It's an opportunity for Fat Leonard, is it not?

Speaker2: [00:32:55] Absolutely. Because he was he was a fixer. He was a yes man. He was going to try to help the Navy do whatever he he could as long as they were paying their invoices to him. So in this case, Leonard got creative. And he he he included in his menu of offerings to the United States Navy, a thing that he called the Ring of Steel, which started out as a I mean, imagine this, it's a bunch of 50 gallon drums, empty, 50 gallon empty and sealed 50 gallon drums. So these things could float. They were attached with cables and they would encircle anchored ships. So it was like it was I mean, I don't know if they sell 50 gallon drums at Home Depot, but I envisioned this as a real, like Home Depot junkyard, you know, garage skunkworks, DIY kind of job that he did. But Scrappy Navy.

Speaker3: [00:33:49] Scrappy Fat Leonard Scrappy.

Speaker2: [00:33:51] Fat Leonard Very. Yeah. Well, and again, just as a businessman, this guy, he's being innovative. He's like, here's a problem. I can think of a way that we can we can protect these ships. Let's do this. He did it. It worked. It was the first iteration. Those the ring of steel that, like I said, started as 50 gallon drums. It evolved to become anchored barges that were attached by very heavy gauged cables. And so the you kind of open this up, a US Navy ship would would anchor inside of the ring of steel and Leonard would have mercenaries on boats that would be patrolling both inside and outside the ring of steel. And he even would have scuba divers diving underneath to make sure to to ensure the safety of these ships. And so, again, Leonard kicked ass at what he did. He was great at what he did. And he started he started gathering all these things that the Navy calls Bravo Zulus, which is just it's basically a naval letter of excellence, kind of kind of like, hey, this if you're if you're a Navy contractor and you've got Bravo Zulus, that's that's kind of like a it's kind of like a michelin star, I guess. But for but given by the Navy and for not food.

Speaker3: [00:35:12] Or maybe a merit badge.

Speaker2: [00:35:15] Okay. Maybe a merit badge would be better. But again, it's it definitely validates and legitimizes Leonard's business big time.

Speaker3: [00:35:32] So Leonard started raking in more money and opening up in more ports, including Singapore, Hong Kong and others. And since Fat Leonard, I just kind of like saying that, don't you, Fat Leonard? It's nice.

Speaker2: [00:35:46] It's cool.

Speaker3: [00:35:47] It lands. Yeah, it lands really nice. Fat Leonard was providing excellent service, as we've, as we've mentioned, you know, as well as money, gifts, sex and to decision makers in the Navy, we're more willing to direct ships to Leonard's ports. And so Leonard also began submitting because this is going so well, I guess Leonard starts submitting inflated invoices which his friends in the Navy approved without any problem whatsoever. Okay. Right.

Speaker2: [00:36:23] And let me let me give a little bit of nuance there, too. Yeah. It's not that his from what again, this was some of the stuff that I really dug into. It's not that like every invoice was just just automatically rubber stamp approved. What would happen Like he'd he'd build like sometimes three times the amount that he should have for something. And he was very much if somebody was like, Hey, this is too high, he'd be like, Cool, what should it be? And they'd be like, maybe one third of that. And he'd be like, okay. And then that would that that was his, that was his MO. So it wasn't it was very much get out of jail free. If he if there was any if if and when the on the rare occasions that there was scrutiny, he'd just back off and lower his bill and they'd be like, cool, no harm, no foul. Keep going.

Speaker3: [00:37:10] In. Leonard. He through these naval appreciation parties, right? Yeah.

Speaker2: [00:37:18] Okay. He was renowned for them, okay.

Speaker3: [00:37:21] And they started getting more lavish and according and well, I'm I'm reading the word that Greg wrote here, which is skanky, lavish and skanky.

Speaker2: [00:37:32] I think that's a good. I'm going to I'm going to say that word lands and I think that's a great description of these of these these appreciation parties.

Speaker3: [00:37:40] According to Leonard, at least one such party kind of just ended up being a full blown orgy. So that's something interesting.

Speaker2: [00:37:51] And that's so there's that.

Speaker3: [00:37:54] Not only that, but Leonard claims that he also had video cameras secretly installed in karaoke machines, which I don't know how you would do that, but that seems weird and, um.

Speaker2: [00:38:10] Seems seems innovative. This guy was an innovator and.

Speaker3: [00:38:14] A little bit of extortion y. Right? So he's got well, he's got compromise.

Speaker2: [00:38:19] I think he's got compromising.

Speaker3: [00:38:21] Information on some, some some pretty powerful people in the Navy. And yeah, he's got he's got video, he's got the goods, he's got the goods on these people in the Navy. Absolutely. He.

Speaker2: [00:38:35] Then things start to turn for Leonard A. One day, a lieutenant, a new guy on the scene, noticed that Leonard was charging them for too much fresh water. And Caleb, you may ask, how did this guy know that Leonard was charging them too much for fresh water? Great question. It's because the invoice was for more water than the boat could physically hold. Like this guy knew how, Like the size of the fresh water tanks on these boats. And he's like, Yeah, this invoice is wrong because there's not enough room for this much water. And so so he pushed back. He even confronted Leonard about it. And that did not go well because he's like a what? Like a junior officer. And Leonard was like real butthurt that a junior officer would have the gall to to confront him about this kind of thing when it's like, I mean, again, to accountants like us, we go, yeah, that's that's not a gray area. That's there's not your this is wrong. It's 100% wrong. Fix that So so Leonard got butthurt and and then this guy's superiors even told him they were just like, hey, shut up, Knock it off. Get back to your desk. Don't worry about it. So which Caleb, That's bonkers. This. Yeah.

Speaker2: [00:39:57] Because his. It's math. It's. It's just math. And his his seniors didn't have his back on that. Because arguably they were in Fat Leonard's back pocket. Right. And so after another inflated invoice for sewage removal that this guy just had enough and he and he went to the NCIS, which is the Navy Crimes Investigation Service, Naval Crimes Investigation Service. And so NCIS then contacted the commanding officer to follow up on this. And the commanding officer was just like, Yeah, don't worry. No, no, it's fine. Nothing's happening here. No big deal. And so the NCIS just dropped it. And then the lieutenant also after that informed the NCIS about Fat Leonard's criminal past his death sentence for gun possession in Malaysia. And here's another fun fact I didn't know, and that is that anyone with a criminal record is precluded from being awarded a Department of Defense contract. So ergo, Fat Leonard just shouldn't have ever gotten any Department of Defense contracts, period, let alone be in a place where he could. He shouldn't be. He's he doesn't even have the right to give an invoice, let alone give a false or inflated invoice. And then then here's what's totally bonkers to me, Caleb. One of the many things in this case, it's totally.

Speaker3: [00:41:37] Wait, it gets more bonkers.

Speaker2: [00:41:38] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because then Fat Leonard, he. Listen, Fat Leonard was able to use his network of cronies within the Navy to get that lieutenant's position removed. So this guy was a pain in his ass, and he's just like, Yeah, you don't work here anymore. That's. That's the kind of power that Fat Leonard had had amassed as a fucking contractor to impressive to the US Navy. Amazing. But again, he's bribing people and and we're going to get to it. That fosters a very strange relationship. So not only this lieutenant was narking out Fat Leonard, but also at this time other people, like larger numbers of people, started knocking out Fat Leonard. The theory is that by this point, we were into the Obama administration days. The the threat of kind of the the hysteria of the terrorist attacks and particularly of nine over 11 was starting to to reduce. And therefore, the military spending was also starting to be reduced. So there wasn't it wasn't the gravy train that the armed forces were on. That was born out of nine over 11. So that's kind of the theory of why people were starting to to to analyze his bills and starting to starting to talk about it a little more. But here's here's what happened. Not only this, lieutenant, but there was a total, I'm sure, including him, of 27 different Fat Leonard investigations that were initiated by the NCIS. And all of those 27 investigations were dropped. And you got to think again. It's the same kind of thing that happened with this lieutenant where the NCIS started looking into it, and people in authority were like, Yeah, nothing to see here. Everything's in perfect order. So at that point, so 27 initiated and dropped investigations and then comes along this person named Teresa Kelly.

Speaker2: [00:43:52] She was a civilian naval employee and her job in the Navy for for the Navy was to negotiate contracts with companies like Fat Leonard's company. That was her job. And it was obvious to her that Leonard's invoices were inflated. And on top of that, she was not interested in Fat Leonard's money, and she was not interested in fat. Lenny's prostitutes, so she wasn't getting in his back pocket. And she she I mean, basically, she had some scruples. So she sent and again, this is just this is so telling of the kind of power that Leonard had. She noticed this these shenanigans going on by Fat Leonard. And with his invoices, she sent an email to a colleague about her concerns and suspicions about these invoices. The the guy that she sent that email to just so happened to be one of Fat Leonard's cronies. So he forwarded her email to Fat Leonard. And then not too long after that, the Thai Navy informed Teresa that Leonard had a copy of the email that she sent to this colleague. So she was furious. And that was a lot of what spurred her to also go to the NCIS and to push them to investigate. And surprisingly, this time they actually did. And in this NCIS investigation, they were able to get one of Leonard's employees. So somebody on the inside of Fat Leonard's company, they got her to wear a bug to a meeting, to wear a wire, to a meeting where she recorded another employee admitting to inflated invoices. So this investigation, unlike the 27 other ones, was actually starting to go somewhere.

Speaker3: [00:45:44] But Fat Leonard had a mole inside NCIS. John Beliveau. Leonard first met Béliveau while he served as a bodyguard to an admiral in the West Pacific. Ironically, Béliveau was awarded NCIS Agent of the Year shortly before this all went down, which is perfect, but also so much.

Speaker2: [00:46:09] That's that. That's where. That's where you go, huh? Yeah. Yeah. What? Yep. And you kind of go, okay, so this is so this is a made for a made for Hollywood movie. Oh, yeah.

Speaker3: [00:46:23] Yes, I think so. So, yeah, BÉLIVEAU enjoyed the money and the prostitutes provided by. Fat Leonard. And so Béliveau informed Léonard about the results of this NCIS bugging operation. But also while he was digging around in the NCIS records on Leonard's behalf, he stumbled upon another huge problem.

Speaker2: [00:46:52] Right? And this here's what happened with the other problem, and that's that there's a ship commander's wife. Her name is Marcy Miscovich Miscovich. It's this. It's this. I'm sure it's a Czechoslovakian name. It's like Coach Krzyzewski. It's in pronounceable. And but I think it's Miscovich. So Marcy Miscovich, she mischievous, mischievous, mischievous, mischievous. Good. So she contacted the NCIS about Leonard. So. So this commander's wife contacted NCIS about Leonard because her husband, Michael Miscovich, accepted trips and prostitutes from Leonard. Not a great way to have your wife really be in your corner and on top of that. So listen, not only did not only did Fat Leonard give this guy Michael Miscovich trips and prostitutes after that, he also gave Michael Miscovich a Gucci purse to give to his wife. Plus tickets to The Lion King in Tokyo. As kind of like like, I don't know, like, hey, honey, I'm a good guy. Kind of gifts or like, Hey, you might be suspicious. It's a smooth things over, you know, like a gentleman. You bet. But the the last but but obviously, Marcy. Marcy had known there was other infidelity that had been known to Marcy before this, and their marriage was not good. All this other stuff starts happening. He's hanging out with these shady people. And the last straw for Marcy Miscovich was when her husband, Michael, Commander Michael Miscovich, took their kids along with him to a meal with Fat Leonard and some of Fat Leonard's cronies that pissed her off beyond pissed off. And so because of that, just, you know, hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. So she she found everything she could that was incriminating to her husband. And she dropped it off on the desk of somebody in the NCIS. And this included communications that her husband had with with Leonard. And it also included communications that her husband had had with this former mistress. Are you ready for another fun, fun Navy fact, Caleb?

Speaker3: [00:49:12] I am thoroughly enjoying the fun. Navy Facts.

Speaker2: [00:49:17] Adultery is a court martial offense in the US military. Did you know.

Speaker3: [00:49:22] That? I absolutely did not know that.

Speaker2: [00:49:25] Now you do. And it's and this is like I researched this on some Department of Defense website says the maximum punishment for adultery slash extramarital sexual conduct is a dishonorable discharge forfeiture of all pay and allowances and confinement for up to one year. You could go to jail for a year and lose your pension for having adultery in the in the Navy. But it turns out NCIS was way more interested in the Leonard stuff than they were in the philandering stuff. So. A The Mole. John Béliveau told Leonard about the Misovic situation because that's what that's what John Béliveau found when he was digging around was like, Oh, shit. Not only did they bug one of your employees, there's also this commander's wife who gave over a lot of incriminating shit to the NCIS on you. So? So the mole bond, John Béliveau told Leonard about that, and John Béliveau, who works for this basically intelligence agency within the Navy. He he was like coaching Leonard, and he says, Hey, man, this is some bad stuff. And so Leonard don't under absolutely no circumstances should you contact Commander Miscevic because that's a bad move and it's going to just go against you. So because of that, Leonard promptly contacted Commander Miscovich and about and not he didn't just contact him, he like emailed him going, Hey, I heard that your wife is turning over some stuff to the NCIS.

Speaker2: [00:51:08] And then this is where the story gets so fun because Commander Miscavige's email was currently being surveilled by the NCIS. So they saw the email from Leonard, of course, telling Miscovich about the stuff that Mrs. Mitzevich gave the NCIS. And they go, There's he can't. And so the NCIS was like. Like there's Leonard has an informant inside the NCIS. So NCIS goes to their cybersecurity team and they're like, Hey, you got to figure out what the hell's going on here. And the NCIS cybersecurity team tracked everything back to John Béliveau, but they didn't confront John Béliveau yet. Instead, what they did is they planted fake info into their server that said, Hey, this Fat Leonard investigation, we're closing it down. Nothing to see here. It's just going to going to bed like it had 27 times before. So Béliveau saw the fake info he bought the he believed the fake info. He told Leonard that, Hey, it's been dropped. We're off the hook. That was a close call, but we're good. And so Leonard being, you know, so Leonard obviously relaxed his guard and he took a trip to San Diego, California, United States of America to pitch some new contracts to the Navy. But when he got to San Diego, California, United States of America, he got he got apprehended.

Speaker3: [00:52:45] So Fat Leonard apprehended in 2013, and he made a plea deal in 2015 and he started snitching on everybody. Okay. Prosecutors claim that Leonard's corruption scheme cost the Navy $35 million, but it's got to be more than that, right?

Speaker2: [00:53:06] It's got to be way more than that. My, my. Again, this is sort of a gut feeling. This wasn't a spreadsheet calculation that I made, but. Right. My gut. My gut saying it was like ten times that. But yeah, but again, and we've talked about this in so many cases, I bet you that's just that the Navy can prove $35 million, right?

Speaker3: [00:53:25] So yeah, so, yeah. So Fat Leonard figures. Well, I'm going down. Why not take some high ranking naval officers with me? Yeah. Drag.

Speaker2: [00:53:36] Drag some people with me.

Speaker3: [00:53:38] Why not? Uh, more than two dozen naval officers have pleaded guilty in this case to taking bribes and to defrauding the US Navy. Rear Admiral Robert Gellert was sentenced to 18 months in prison, making him the first ever Navy admiral incarcerated for a federal crime. That's something.

Speaker2: [00:53:56] That's a big something. Yeah.

Speaker3: [00:53:58] Seven other admirals have also been disciplined or censured by the Navy, which is also.

Speaker2: [00:54:04] Yeah, a big damn deal. Seems like a big deal. Yeah, that's. I mean, because and that's the thing. Like if it said generals, you you might swallow your gum, but an admiral is basically the equivalent of a general just in the Navy. So that's that's insane. Yeah.

Speaker3: [00:54:22] Fat Leonard spent four years so during this time he's doing time. He spends four years in prison, but then he's released on house arrest because he's diagnosed with kidney cancer. And so he's finally so he does all this cooperating with prosecutors. And he's finally going to be sentenced in September of 2022, September 22nd of 2022. And on September 4th, 2022. He cut off his ankle bracelet and disappeared.

Speaker2: [00:54:53] This is crazy. He El Chapo made his way out of his. I mean, he didn't dig like tunnels or anything, but he. He. What if he did? He. Well, they didn't find it. Oh, they talked about that. If they. Yeah. They would have talked about it. Yeah, they totally would have. But still the guy, the guy just bounced out of house arrest, what, 18 days before it was go time? Yep.

Speaker3: [00:55:17] And Leonard was then recaptured on his sentencing date, September 22nd, 2022, at an airport in Venezuela. Apparently, he had fled from San Diego to Mexico, from Mexico to Cuba and from Cuba to Venezuela.

Speaker2: [00:55:35] A real Carmen San Diego kind of situation going Very much so.

Speaker3: [00:55:39] Very much so. He was about to board a flight to Russia where the compromising information that he had. Right. And either other top secret info would probably be very valuable to the Russian intelligence. And he's as of this recording, he's he's currently being detained in Venezuela. But extradition is on hold because, you know, Venezuela and the US kind of a strained relationship. So, Greg, did we learn anything? This is a this is a corruption scandal. Very little. Yeah, very little debits and credits going on here. Right. But but, you know, not everyone who listens to this show is an accountant. But. But corruption. Pretty fun. Pretty fun. Fraud. Corruption.

Speaker2: [00:56:34] Yeah, absolutely. Well, so and what did we learn?

Speaker3: [00:56:36] I mean, that's what I'm asking it.

Speaker2: [00:56:38] Right? And and I'm excited to to get to a corruption case especially one that's as like legit. This is arguably my new favorite fraud case that we've covered. And I don't want to discount the fact that it is a corruption scheme because even if you look at the ACF, when they're talking about when they're when they're talking about fraud, they break it down into three general categories, which is financial statement fraud. We've tackled those. Yeah, asset misappropriation, which is basically embezzlement. We've tackled a lot of those and they also list corruption. So this is this this is definitely in the wheelhouse of fraud examiners. It should be in the wheelhouse of accountants as well, because this stuff does go on in in US companies and we need to be aware of it.

Speaker3: [00:57:33] There's paper trails, right? Yeah. Like if there's a paper trail, then it can be then it can be accounted for. That's what I'm saying. Right. Right.

Speaker2: [00:57:42] Well, and here's here's where I mean, I feel like this a corruption case is basically just a super charged fake invoice scheme, at least at least léonard's corruption scheme. Was that because because in a in a in a fake invoice scheme, you send in either an inflated invoice or just a completely false invoice and you just are sitting there crossing your fingers and holding your breath that they're just going to pay it and not ask any questions, which happens a lot, which is actually I mean, if you want to dig back deep, that was kind of what we were talking about with the pirate TONER Printer. Toner Pirate KING That's episode our very first episode. Yep. Yeah. Because they were sending these, these inflated invoices and just hoping that people wouldn't look into it. So that's but, but here the difference with a corruption scheme and this is why it's super charged is that you're not crossing your fingers hoping that nobody finds out about it. You know that they know that it's that it's inflated and you just are going, Yeah, I gave you some bribes. So this is going to go through. And so, so that's that's one of the things that I feel like I learned was just how corruption could really just be seen as like a tweak of a pretty normal fraud scheme anyways. But I think this is a more important thing that I that I learned was the weird relationship that's borne out of bribery.

Speaker2: [00:59:11] Because if you look at what happened in the Fat Leonard scam, obviously Fat Leonard's in deep shit for bribing the Navy, but the people accepting the bribes are in equally deep shit, or at least close to equally deep. There's a lot of everybody's in trouble, but both sides. And so there's this weird bond that then is born between these people where it's like, If I snitch on you, I'm snitching on me. So yeah, these invoices are good. And that's that's how. So it wasn't even that Leonard had to like put a lot of pressure on these people that he had relationships with. It was just that everybody knew that everybody had dirt on everybody. So let's just not let's just pay the invoices and call it good. Because, you know, and especially when it gets as personal as this stuff was getting, where it's like, not only do I know that I paid you a lot of money, I know that that I. I saw you at the orgy, that I was at having sex with someone who was not. These were not your wife was not at this orgy. I, I checked IDs, and your wife was not there. So you're not just not just financially busted, you're personally decimated if this goes south. So there's this weird I mean, so you almost have like, a lot of confidence that your essentially false invoice scheme is going to succeed.

Speaker3: [01:00:39] Yeah. Yeah, it's wild, man.

Speaker2: [01:00:41] And then the third thing and this is a little this is a little a little bit in the minutia of Fat Leonard's house arrest. But I found that part and this was my understanding of how the house arrest worked, was that, like we said, Leonard was he was incarcerated after, you know, he was incarcerated while they were waiting for his for him to be convicted. He was incarcerated after his plea deal while he was still supposedly cooperating and helping the the helping bust all these other people who were involved. In the whole thing. But when he was released to house arrest because of his health conditions, what the court did is they ordered Fat Leonard to pay for his own security. He had to pay for the guards who were there to make sure that Leonard stayed inside his house, which I get that because the US taxpayers probably don't want to pay for guards when this guy, like we were saying, maybe has ten times the amount of money that they can prove that he stole from the Navy. So it's like you got you got plenty of money. We know you got plenty of money you can pay for these guards.

Speaker2: [01:01:53] But of course, that because the day that he escaped, the guards didn't stop him from escaping. And and Caleb, there's even there's even talk that there was some like, U-Haul vans there the day before he escaped. And it's like, where the hell were these guards? They were gone because Leonard was fucking paying. He was he was writing him their checks for that. So he was probably like, Hey, guys, you know, I'm. I'm paying this whole thing, you know, it's cool. Thursday off you guys you get you get Thursday off everybody's you know and and and and the guys he's a wheeler dealer and a schmoozer he was he was probably all of his guards best friend while he was there. And so here's what I was thinking as I go that's so analogous to the stuff that we bitch about, like every single podcast about companies hiring their own auditors. And it's the same thing if you've got if you've got a shitty company that's wanting to get away with stuff there and they're hiring the person that's supposed to narc them out, they can definitely leverage that relationship to to make sure that they come off clean in the end.

Speaker3: [01:03:03] Do you want to know if what about you.

Speaker2: [01:03:05] Caleb? Yes. Did you what were the things that you learned?

Speaker3: [01:03:08] Caleb I think this is what it underscores, what this story underscores for me, at least. Like if you bring it back to how it's relevant for, you know, the accountants listening out there or just anyone listening. Because again, we like, we we have a broad audience. Greg But yeah, the and you touched on it. I think you touched on this a little bit. So hopefully I'm not repeating you too much, but the fine line between bribing and the ordinary course of business, Yeah, right. Yeah. So like, if you're an auditor and you've got a client and you'd like to take that client out to dinner because you're just can, you're, you're conducting this in the ordinary course of business because this is occasionally what happens between people. Yeah. Or say it's a prospect forget about being a client. Say you're an auditor and you're wooing a client and you're like, Oh, in the ordinary course of business, I would like to buy this person a cup of coffee or take them to a fancy dinner or like bring them to a ball game or whatever. It's like, that's okay. I mean, I know there's rules around this stuff and like, but it's also a very like, where where does the line get crossed? Like when does the SEC say that's a bribe or that impairs independence or. Right. That is that that's what we consider to be illegal behavior or where you're just like, hey, people just go into a ball game and joint client and client and service provider or prospect and potential service provider. These are just people acting in the ordinary course of business. There's nothing untoward here. It's just like the situations can look very, very similar. And except for one like one tiny detail, then it tips over into corruption versus not being corruption.

Speaker2: [01:04:50] Right. A very interesting quote from Fat Leonard. Is he? Because, again, his whole goal at the time when the interviews that the different organizations had with him was while he was in house arrest. So his whole mission in life is to drag people down with him. So he very in this in this conversation, he says $1,000 a plate meal. That's absolutely a bribe. I was 100% giving you a bribe. And he says this wasn't some meal from McDonald's for $10. This was $1,000 a plate Michelin meal. And I think that speaks to what you're saying, because I think everybody would go, yeah, if he'd taken him to McDonald's. That's not a bribe. And yeah, $1,000 plate meal, 100% a bribe. But what but what you're saying is there's a big gap between those and where's the tipping point between them? And it's like, don't know. Don't know. Because my, my, my the bank that I bank with, they want to they keep offering me a Utah jazz tickets during the season to go and watch the jazz and I don't accept them not on principle more because I'm not a sports guy but but now I feel smug that I'm like, I resisted their bribes and and their corruption. That's right. It's.

Speaker4: [01:06:17] I don't know.

Speaker3: [01:06:18] Maybe you should just go to A. See? Watch a basketball game sometime and feel like. And go and just be like and report back and be like. I felt very corrupted. I feel like. I feel like, yeah, I. I'm going to give these bankers everything. I'm going to give them all my business. We should just.

Speaker2: [01:06:32] We we could do a live episode and the whole time is me just going, I don't think I'm supposed to be here. Are they paying for these hotdogs? The prices of these hotdogs is clearly inflated. It's a.

Speaker3: [01:06:41] $12 hotdog.

Speaker2: [01:06:44] This is if this was a if this was a buck 50 Costco hot dog, that'd be fine. But this is $15. Ridiculous.

Speaker3: [01:06:51] And they threw in the nachos.

Speaker2: [01:06:58] All right. So that's it for this episode. Remember, if your spouse is cheating on you, just have them enlist in the Navy and get their ass thrown in jail.

Speaker3: [01:07:08] That's good advice. And also, remember new episodes of NCIS Air every Monday night on CBS.

Speaker2: [01:07:16] Yeah, I've never watched the show, but know that every episode includes a mole in the NCIS and a bad guy nicknamed Fat Somebody. If you want to drop us a line, send us an email at OMI. Fraud at Earmark Cpcomm. Caleb, where can people find you? Out there in internet land.

Speaker3: [01:07:37] On Twitter at Newquist and LinkedIn. My full name backslash. Caleb Newquist. Greg, how can people get ahold of you?

Speaker2: [01:07:43] People can get ahold of me at my only fans page at Greg Kyte where I am. I'm basically just doing basic bookkeeping and wearing no bottoms, but you can only see the webcam that shows my top half. But let your imagination do the work seems worthwhile.

Speaker3: [01:08:01] Oh my Fraud is written by Greg Kyte and myself. Our producer is Zach Frank. If you like the show, leave us a review. Did you hear the review at the beginning of this show? Greg Kyte could read your review. Wouldn't that be thrilling?

Speaker2: [01:08:14] So thrilling.

Speaker3: [01:08:15] Also share the show with people you love or your worst enemy. Whoever it helps. You know, these these. This is how people find podcasts. That's what I'm trying to say. Also, subscribe on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify or wherever you listen. And for the accountants out there, listen on earmark, get some CPE. Nothing corrupt about that at all. Nope, nope. Join us next Time for more average swindlers and scams from stories that will make you say, Oh, my friend.

Speaker2: [01:08:46] Oh, my fraud.