Empowering pastors - navigating mental health

What is Record Live Podcast?

Record Live is a conversation about life, spirituality and following Jesus in the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Hi there, everyone. I'm Jarrod. And I'm Zenita. Let's go live.

 Welcome everyone to another episode, jared, you have flown to the top of Australia and back since our last recording. Where have you been? What's been happening?

I have, yes, I've just been in Townsville, , this past weekend with my wife and my kids, it's an interesting experience travelling with two young children, but we survived, , , we went up to Townsville, my wife and I did a bit of a relationship conference or program for the .

young adults up there and it was a lot of fun. We told some stories and I guess shared from our experience in our marriage. We've had ups and downs and we were willing to share some of those with the young people and they seem to respond really well. They've got a lot of questions obviously at that stage of life about getting into serious relationships and looking to be equipped and yeah, we had a lot of fun and so did they.

So it was a good time. Awesome.

Well, we are continuing on. We have a series today that we've been doing the last few weeks. We have been looking at pastors and mental health, which is a super important topic. , Another great mastermind. Good looking guest today. We'll welcome him on. , Neil Thompson. Welcome to the show.

Thanks, Zanita. And look, I love the flattery. So, you know, flattery is going to get you a lot, a lot of places. Yeah, look, thanks. Thanks for inviting me Ministrum.

Yeah, it's awesome. We, we brought you on with you. One of the first people we thought of when we thought of doing this series, there's another little bit of flattery for you, but we'd love to hear just to start off with, about your role and what kind of work you've done in this space.

So. My current role is I'm working at Avondale University in the practical church ministry space, so training new pastors in how to do ministry and do ministry well and to survive and flourish in ministry.

Prior to this local church pastoring or even ministerial in North New South Wales conference for about six years. And that was really interesting, you know, so working with a whole team of, I think we had around 70 pastors working with, doing coaching with the pastors, overseeing other regional mentors who are working with pastors and, and just generally trying to tweak all that we were doing to ensure that our pastors not only We're okay in ministry, but actually we're thriving in ministry if possible.

So it's not always possible. They're like life, life happens to all of us. Life's happened to me, you know, I've had my own crash and burn experience. So I guess that's the sort of thing that, that illuminates practice is when you've been through those dark moments and how to avoid that so others don't have to go through it.

I'm intrigued by that, Neil. And if what you're willing to share on this platform, can you just give us a bit of understanding in terms of what that looks like for a pastor to sort of struggle with that and some of the ways that you overcame or worked through, , and why it's given you the passion for that space that it has today.

Yeah, look, thanks, Jared. It's really interesting. So for me, one of the things that was happening, I've been involved in youth ministry for about 10, 12 years. And as a result of doing, you know, statewide youth ministry, the level of, you know, the high pressure that goes with our job of just performing and week in week out just meant that I was becoming more and more, driven in terms of.

The way I was approaching life, it was wildly out of balance. The internal self anger was rising. Stress levels are certainly high, and there was a profound sense of loss that was happening in the background as well because I wasn't sure what I was losing, but I was losing something and what I was actually losing was myself in that, right?

So I was doing way too much work and not taking care of self. It's a theme that is easily. Adopted, I guess, as a ministry framework and one of the things is , how do we change that to become something different? So what happened for me was, , I went through 10, 000 earthquakes in Christchurch, moved from New Zealand to Australia.

And when I arrived in Australia, I was struggling in a whole range of fronts, not the least of which was all leaving Christchurch behind in the mess that that city, dearly loved city was, was in at the time. And, and then just finding myself and, and then I just didn't thrive. I just continued to not do well emotionally until eventually I went to the boss and said, Justin, I don't think I can do this anymore.

I need to stop. And he said, sure, take whatever time you need. And while I was convalescing, I was Really fortunate to come across some people who pointed me in the right direction to get the right help. And that changed everything. Um, within probably about a five, six week period, my life was transformed and changed again.

I found my feet and I got back on the road again. And while I not afraid of hard work, I'm also more balanced about what I do more practicing self care in terms of spiritual life, practicing more self care and things that would recreate me and keep me more balanced. So I've learned how to do balance in life.

I wonder if you could just give a little more insight, like when you say you learnt more balance and , , you had your crash and burn experience, but then, you know, you implemented self care things. What were those things? Like, what did that look like to create more balance and

incorporate self care?

Yeah. Thanks, Anita. I think that that approach that I used was, a journaling method that actually helped me process the emotional baggage that I built up over 20 years at that stage of ministry , and to let go of that and to see myself as not being the same as, so to, to see myself as not being a pastor, I am a human being and I do ministry.

I am not a minister. Right? So my identity is not with that. My identity is, well, I'm a son of God. I am a child of the most high, to see my identity is different from what I do. Yeah, I'm called to do ministry. I'm called to operate in church space, but I'm much more than that. I'm a human being, right?

So to get that distinction. And to keep that distinction healthy has been really important for me moving beyond where I was. And so some of the things I did was, go back to, rediscovering a devotional life all over again with the richness and newness of that. Rediscovering what it is to surrender more fully and completely to God.

Discovering what it is to, to be a wounded healer. So someone who's actually been wounded by life but can actually relate with authenticity in that space. I don't have to pretend to be someone I'm not. So there's been, some subtle changes in how, I've moved on since then. And I, I really like the, the Neil 2.

0, you know, if you, if you can call it that, you know, there's something nice that happened through that. I don't think I would have got there any other way, but I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

In your perspective, Neil, what are some of the challenges that face ministers in the field? We've heard about some of those in the past couple of weeks, but, perhaps you've got some stats as well that show us, , what sort of scope this problem is, because I think people may underestimate it, or there's been a stigma or a common assumption around the church that mental health issues don't happen if you've got enough faith.

Which is, unfortunately a lie that's propagated throughout the church , and has fooled a lot of people. And so there's some assumptions that perhaps people have about this stuff. Can you just give us the scope of the problem in your words and what you've experienced in working with ministers , and what you've learned in equipping yourself to, to deal with some of this stuff?

Jared, this is such a key question. It really is like at the heart of this is not just, you know, our theology messes with us. As Adventists, we have this kind of theology that sort of sets us up that we're unable to talk about our vulnerabilities because we're supposed to be the remnant, we're supposed to be the special people called by God who live a certain way.

And in living that way, it kind of sets us up for not being able to talk about the fact that actually I'm struggling this week with, you know, X, Y, and Z, or I'm, I'm actually feeling a heavy burden on my heart and I'm actually feeling a little depressed and down at the moment. Is it even okay for a pastor to admit that they're depressed?

Is it okay for a pastor to admit that they're suffering panic attacks or anxiety attacks? Where does faith fit into that? So these are complex questions, right, that are not that easily answered. And our church is not necessarily that safe a place to talk about it. Like, I remember being in a meeting once.

And in that meeting, it was of my regional mentors , where I was working and I shared with them that at this point in time, I was struggling with X, Y, and Z, I won't go into the details of what it was because that's not important. And all I really wanted was just to be real in that moment and just to be vulnerable.

I didn't need anyone to take care of me. But as soon as the meeting was over, I had a number of people come to me and added to my problem that day by actually saying, Oh, Neil. Okay. Oh, you know, and suddenly my problem went from being just me just sharing to now me not only having to deal with my issues, but deal with them being triggered by the fact that I was just being vulnerable human being.

And all I wanted to experience was love and compassion. I didn't need them to actually fix me. Thank you. Um, I didn't need them to respond, the way they did at that time, all I needed was an understanding heart to go. Yeah, me too. I've had moments like that too. Yeah. Sign me up. Me too. And out of that, we can have this sense of shared humanity that in it we're together and doing ministry.

And I think in terms of how ministers go in this space, I think one of the, you know, you're asking about statistics. One of the statistics is that 20% of pastors Um, this is not just an Adventist. This is an interdenominational figure represented by pastors in Australia. 20% of those don't have a trusted friend who they can share their life journey with.

Now, if you think one in five spiritual leaders, pastors in this country don't have someone they can share their, burdens with, they're doing that alone. And if they're doing that alone, what happens when they take a knock? How do they get back up again when they're taking those knocks?

And that's a really difficult thing. So I think what we can do as a church to help change that landscape is by being safe around the pastors by that I mean, if a pastor shares something, you can be a friend, but don't ever share that with anyone else. Just keep that confidence, be someone who they can talk with and keep that confidence, be someone who can actually listen without adding to the weight that they carry.

Let me give you a couple of different kind of examples. The worst day in my ministry, and I remember this day well, was assisting someone who, you know, so it involved me calling the police for immediate support to find someone who was in immediate risk of self harm. That same day, while dealing with that, I had the pressure of dealing with a local church leader who was chewing me up because I didn't respond to emails fast enough.

And, and it's like, that's the pressure that can come in ministry. Right. It's like, and having someone to go to and say, Oh, wow, you know, this is just a day that I've been through. Or I remember talking with, with one of the young guns in North and South Wales when a part of our conference was being absolutely inundated by rain, you know, so that they had a meter of water flowing through their church.

And in the middle of all of that, here's this young gun doing all of this incredible ministry and community. And I said, so how you doing, how are you doing? And, , I don't know if I can actually say this word on radio, but this is the word I'll use. Cause it's the word he used. He just said, I'm stuffed.

I'm just absolutely spent. I don't have any more energy. And I'm like, yeah, you've had a really big week. And you need to take time out to care for you. And here's one of the things, pastors are often caring in the midst of crises for everyone else. But who's got their back. Who's caring for them?

And, , through Covid, one of the research that's clear is that passes to come out of Covid and they're feeling really highly effective. But they're also feeling vulnerable because they've got less of that scaffold. Let me see if I can find that particular research thing .

It's like the sense of effectiveness is up the sense of stress. Is, , is higher than it was before covid. So they're now feeling more stressed , by considerable and they're feeling less connected with others. So they're feeling more emotionally distant from others , and when you think that 20% are already not connected But now they're feeling less connected.

That means that this space for pastors is more fragile So what's needed by local church members is just people without being nosy prior Whatever who can just become a mate to your pastor. Just be a a friend, invite them round for a meal, but don't talk about church. Don't talk about the politics of church.

Just talk about life, , and the simple things of life and just care as a human being about them.

. I think what I'm hearing you say is for a role that's so demanding and that's constantly giving. It's wild, for starters, that 1 in 5 don't have any support, considering their role.

And that they're often expected, to be unwavering in their faith, they're expected to be there for everyone. They're also expected to have this keep calm and carry on approach. Um, yeah, I just really love what you're saying. I think it's really interesting. I think it's really good as well, what you're saying about how church members can come alongside and support and just be a friend and have boundaries around.

What we do and do not talk about

like this morning, literally I had breakfast with a church member in my old church and, we spent two and a half hours just shooting the breeze together talking about all manner of stuff that we're both interested in and it was a glorious meetup and, I just love that because it was nurturing for me, nurturing for him, mutually beneficial for both of us and I'm just like, There we go.

That's the sort of friendships that we actually need to cultivate in life. And, sometimes that's really hard, , but it's desperately needed.

I spoke to a pastor friend of mine, Neil, before this conversation, , saying, Hey, we're doing this series. What should we ask? What, what are some things that are interesting that maybe we haven't covered in the first two?

And they brought up, partners in ministry or pastoral spouses. It seems to me that if. If one in five doesn't have someone to go to, we're probably burdening , their wife or their husband with some of that. And perhaps those people need support as well. In your experience, can you talk a little bit about, is there a mental health burden on partners in ministry as well as, the pastoral person in the relationship?

And how does that dynamic play out for families of pastors?

It's fascinating, Jarrod, because not only does this interplay happen in terms of, isolation of pastor, but isolation of pastoral families too. As an institution, churches move pastoral families around all over the place. We're not actually really that good at caring for people when we move them.

You know, big business will move people and take care of everything for them. For us as an organization, we say, Oh, Jarrod, we're moving you from Sydney to Melbourne or Sydney to Fulton. , just make your own arrangements, get there and send us the bill. And like you take care of everything. Big business will take care of everything for you.

And they'll give you a first class ticket to get there. That communicates something really powerful to the family. It's like, yeah, this, this matters, but not matter so much that we're actually going to look after you. Now, families sacrifice enormously. Every time they move, they break all their friendships.

If they're introverts who are moving, then what they learn is that don't invest too much because it becomes too painful to move from location to location. So they can actually then become more and more socially isolated the further you move. And so that leaves the pastoral couple just with each other.

And if that marriage gets under threat, then that's even more isolating for them. Like, then where do they go? Right? So there's a whole range of issues. And then for the kids growing up in that, subtly, sometimes the pressure is, oh, you're the pastor's kid. You should know better. And so we stopped treating them as kids, and we treat them as though they're meant to be these good examples.

Well, no, they're just kids. Let them be kids. So in, in my ministry, one of the spaces I work in is, in fact, this weekend, I'm running a pastoral marriage retreat for 17 couples, and I'm so looking forward to this weekend. It's going to be so fun. But it's like... helping couples relate better so that they can strengthen that marriage bond.

But also at the same time speaking into them to say, Hey, subtly, Hey guys, date your wives all over again, take them out. Just, just have couple time. And then what you do with family and how you nurture family, to avoid some of the mistakes. Mistakes that I've made or others like me have made in ministry so that we actually do a better job with the emerging generations.

I think that's the thing that , I'm trying to work towards, , I wouldn't say that my parenting has been a failure. I wouldn't say that my marriage has been a failure, but there are things that I'd do different if I had a chance,, and it's like, ah, let's avoid those mistakes.

Let's see if we can do better in that space. And and I think. For our partners in ministry. Yeah, I think there is a real space. We have in each of our conferences, a ministry called partners in ministry. It is meant to be a thing. It's not that effective at actually operating. It's not that effective for, for necessarily bringing all of those partners together because it's lacking the requisite resources and the investment of the organization into that space.

, do the partners in ministry want to be together? Yes. Would they benefit by the camaraderie and support that they could get from that? Yes. But in order for that to happen, we need to actually see that as a strategic priority. We need to invest hard cash into that and put people, good people into that space.

Yeah, it's so interesting. You often don't think about the impact pastoral ministry has on the wife and the family and everything else. It's so much more complicated than we think. Um, part of your role, Neil, is to equip and to coach theology students. Do you think that from when you

were a theology student or when you were starting out in ministry? Like, have things changed since then? Like, , are we getting better at giving students the tools to become ministers and pastors? Or, in your eyes, is it kind of just a repetition of, I don't know? Are we doing the same thing over

No, no, look, it's definitely not the same thing over and over again.

Like working in this space, I know the effort that the team put in into improving the offerings to students without boasting Avondale seminary leads. The field. So by that, I mean, I don't mean in terms of Adventism, although it's certainly true, probably in Adventism, but in Australia, in the theological space of training students for practical, you know, the practical component of ministry, we're leading that space.

That's not a boast. I think it's just a reality. And why? Because there's a bunch of people who stepped up and went, you know what? They looked at some of the stats coming out , of how well equipped our students were being for ministry. And they said that we've got gaps here. We can do better. And so they started reshaping the course.

And now we have one of the finest courses anywhere in the world that actually has field placements built into, into every semester of their training. To equip them. Is it complete? No. Are there gaps? Yeah, there still are. It's hard to do everything in just four years. You know, one of the gaps I've identified is how do we actually, put digital ministry into this space?

So we're working on a digital ministry offering, for 2024. And you might think, wow, it's taken a while to get there. Well, yeah, we've been playing around the edges of that for some time, but to actually finally get that there is an offering and to be able to do that. But it means we're going to have to drop something else to squeeze that in.

And so there's so many things that we juggle and they're all good. And good is the enemy of great, right. To quote, the great author and it's like, okay. So, but that's the space we're in. And I think, yeah, we're doing a good job. Can we do better? Yes. And we must, and we will, , in a constant sort of improvement way.

But I love how, as a university, we're also prioritizing that at the heart of all of that is our relationship with Christ. If you were to summarize, what I would be saying to pastors. I think is this. We as an institution, as the church, we talk about Sabbath. It's in our very name, Seventh Day Adventist.

But when we talk of Sabbath, we talk about the day and we talk about being right. Well, I'd love to just take all of that and just park that to one side and say, all right, let's talk about the relationship we have with God on that day. Let's talk about how that day can change every other day in the week by learning to rest in Christ on that day and journey with Him every day in the week.

Let that mindset shift and change everything. And you know, in the research that says how to scaffold pastors so they do better is to Sabbath properly. And let that Sabbath be an experience that you rest in Christ throughout your whole week, so you're less hurried, you're more likely to do your devotions.

And the final thing I'd say is, and an extension of that, is the idea of sabbaticals. And I'm not talking long service leave here, I'm meaning... Intentioned planning of pastoral retreats so that a pastor would go away for maybe just a weekend a couple of times a year, you know, and it's part of the paid experience that, you know in North and South Wales, we started paying for pastors to go in and do that.

Why? Because it's a way to reconnect spiritually and be renewed spiritually with God. But we need. Greater chunks of time for that. I'd love to see us send pastors away for a 10 week stint where they can recharge spiritually and come back with renewed energy and focus. And maybe while they're away, they write.

So Jared, this would be right up your alley. You know, maybe they write or have ideas and they come back to you and they talk about those ideas and somehow rather we nurture them spiritually so that they become stronger and and deeper in their walk with God.

Makes me want to become a pastor, too. Oh, come on.

I'll

sign you up right now, Zanita. Come on. No, that's it. That's what we're talking about. Let's get you in. We'll talk to you later and roll for next semester.

There's some really good ideas there, Neil. It's exciting to see that there are some positive steps, because I think for a long time it was not.

Acknowledged. It was unspoken. Some of the issues that we're talking about, with the mental health of pastors, just to go back to what you said, , in terms of sometimes our theology can impact this whole conversation. And as we're starting to wrap up, what about in a positive sense? How is the Adventist church equipped or how should we be equipped to deal with this issue?

In a better way. Are there things in our DNA as Adventists that mean that we should be leading the way in terms of all Christian denominations in looking after our pastors, treating them well? Helping them through challenges like we're describing. I'm sure there's things in there already that should be equipping us to do this.

Well, do you have any thoughts on what some of those things are?

Thank you. You've just, you know, what a gift question, right? I think the answer is, yeah, of course there are, , to say that we should be leading. Ah, look, I don't want to say that because I think that puts us into the wrong kind of headspace of like arrogance.

You know that we're better than others. Yeah. I don't see that. I think we have unique message to give the world, but our theology short, certainly, you know, the righteousness by faith, the scripture says the righteous live by faith and faith is not in the doings of Neal. Faith is in the doings of Christ.

So I get to rest in him. This is why Sabbath, , if we understand Sabbath correctly, become such an important thing because I get to rest in Christ. There is a rest that remains for the people of God. And that means I rest in the success and the, victory that Christ has won. And I operate out of that space.

It doesn't mean I have to be perfect, but it means that I'm keeping connected in Christ, walking with him. The other thing I would say is our very name is not just Seventh Day, but it's Adventist. And as Adventists, we have this hope that burns within our heart that we've got a soon returning Christ. And, he's triumphant.

He's victorious. He's, overcome all of these things. Now. Even if I'm having a bad day or a bad hair day, or I've got whatever going on because life is brutal at times and it can be for all of us. It means that I still have a hope beyond that, and that hope can inspire and inform that I don't need to become so focused on my problem, my loose perspective on the grand narrative, the big controversy picture.

Yeah. In this world, we'll have trouble in this world. We're going to have all of those things go wrong, but There is a hope beyond there is, through all the pain and the suffering and the trials, God is working at a grand purpose of developing my character and giving me hope in a much grander and greater future.

And I think if we keep that in perspective. Literally, I had this conversation with someone last night reminding them, Hey, what is it that you're missing by just focusing on this problem? And if you could just see the bigger picture of your life and that magnificence of your life and see that grander picture, maybe what you'd see is where God's at work.

Maybe you'd see where God was at work in your life today. Maybe you'd see where God is at work in your family. Maybe you'd see where God is at work in your whole ministry and that whole picture. And in seeing that, you'd see yourself in some grand narrative that God has at work in your life.

Hmm. Yeah, so good.

If you could give any pastors or people thinking about doing pastoral ministry, one piece of advice just to close us off today, what would it be?

I think, John 10, right is such a pivotal chapter in the story of Jesus for me. And,, we could go to John 10 10, which is, the thief comes to steal, kill and destroy, but I've come that might have life and life to the full.

But the question as a ministerial that I've been most interested in. In progressing people from intern to, to ministry or license from license to ordain pastor or commission pastor, you know, let's scrap the commission. Let's just have them all ordained, you know, put that in there because I can, but the real question for me is this.

I want to know that they're listening. Jesus said, my sheep hear my voice. So if you're feeling God calling you to do something, if God is speaking in your life, listen to him. Learn how to discern his voice from all the noise that's around us. and listen to him and follow his voice. He won't disappoint. He won't lead you to somewhere where there's a heavy burden.

He won't lead you in a way which is ill fitting for you. He leads you in ways that you can learn, , to quote Peterson, the unforced rhythms of grace. That's the place he wants to lead you. , and if you want to do ministry and he's leading you there, then don't do anything else. Just do ministry.

But listen. .

Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Neil. It's been a blessing to have you on today. You've shared some really interesting and insightful things. . So thank you again for your time next week. Jared, who do we have on?

Dr. Torben Bergland from the General Conference. He's the Associate Health Director there, and he is a psychiatrist and specialist in mental health and burnout.

He's got some interesting things to say about burnout and. hopefully some really practical tips on avoiding burnout. So that will be an exciting conversation. But Pastor Neil, thank you so much for today. , I've really enjoyed our conversation and I hope everyone who's listening has as well.

We'll see you next week.

Thank you.