Establishing M&A Strategy, with Ryan Lee

Show Notes

Today we are joined by Ryan Lee, who is the newly appointed Director of IT at Allegiance Group. He has an extensive background in M&A and is a wealth of knowledge for any IT leader challenged with integrating disperse technologies and IT teams. In this episode, we discuss strategies and tips to streamline this process and the power of the words “Yes ... but” as it relates to the relationship with business leaders.

Conversation Highlights:
[00:16] Introducing our guest, Ryan Lee
[02:00] Discussing learning platforms
[02:38] Favorite childhood video games
[07:22] Discussing Lee's funniest day in IT
[10:44] Lee's exposure to M&A
[19:27] Navigating difficult conversations
[23:26] Discussing the Language of Business
[24:24] Approaching a new team
[25:55] Impactful new technologies
[30:41] Adopting the "Yes ... and" mindset
[33:09] The cycle of cloud adoption
[38:44] Lee's message to the IT community
[44:03] How to connect with Lee

Notable Quotes:
"'Yes, but' makes a huge difference when you're trying to build relationships and when you're trying to have these discussions." Ryan Lee [17:24]

"Let's have a little bit of empathy for what it is that others are good at, and not expect them to know everything there is to know about IT." Ryan Lee [42:26]

Connect With Ryan Lee
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryan-lee-it-leader/

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Narrator: Welcome to the IT
Matters podcast, where we

explore why IT matters and
matters pertaining to IT.

Keith Hawkey: Welcome to the IT
Matters podcast number 16, where

we give the spotlight to the
unsung hero saving the day in IT

one password reset at a time.

Today our guest is Ryan Lee.

He's the new appointed director
of IT of allegiance group. And

he started his intrepid journey
as application developer in 2010

at Bobcat company. He's been a
part of multiple mergers and

acquisitions, which are always
fun and challenging for the IT

leader. Today we discuss how to
plan and formalize a process

when m&a arises. Ryan, welcome
to the IT Matters podcast.

Ryan Lee: Hey, Keith, thanks for
having me on. Awesome to be here

today.

Keith Hawkey: Yeah, we're happy
to have you on as well. But

first, before we get into the
fun details of m&a, we'd like to

run something we call running
discovery. So this is where I

asked you three nerdy questions
to test your chops. Are you

ready for the challenge?

Ryan Lee: Yeah, definitely.

Keith Hawkey: Okay, so question
number one, what is the most

innovative, in your mind, most
innovative IT technology that

has occurred over the past five
years?

Ryan Lee: Well, you know, the
obvious answer, there's always

going to be artificial
intelligence. Right. So that's

what pretty much anyone's gonna
pick recently. I'm sure it's

overused and overplayed, so I
will go that route. But in the

last five years, to me, it's not
so much about the technology

really, as it is about the focus
that people are taking just on

learning and building out their
teams in general. So it's no

longer just a process of on the
job training or trying to figure

it out, when an emergency
happens. So to me, really, the

most innovative technology will
be a platform of technologies

from LinkedIn Learning to Udemy,
to Pluralsight, to whatever

other platform of choice you're
using to just gain knowledge and

skill set. So any other day,
there's going to be an ever

changing, just evolving
ecosystem of systems and

software that you're never going
to be the expert on. But having

some of those platforms to
leverage to really learn stuff

about them is to me what's
making cutting edge changes in

the IT group as a whole.

Keith Hawkey: That's great
answer. It's not the technology.

It's the people.

Ryan Lee: Yeah, exactly.

Keith Hawkey: And the focus.

Okay, question number two,
favorite video game growing up,

if you've, if you have one.

Ryan Lee: This will probably
date me quite a bit, but mario

world coming out. So l'll
preface this by saying, I'm a

second. I'm a younger brother.

So I was always Luigi. But Mario
World growing up was some of my

fondest memories. So there was
two games that we played just

religiously, all summer long, I
lived out in the country. So if

you can imagine there's not a
lot of opportunities for things

to catch your interest other
than using your imagination, or

lots and lots of chores. Herding
cows, you know, helping out in

the field, doing whatever there
is. So having some of those

gaming systems at the house when
you had some downtime was

amazing. So we played Super
Mario World, on the SNES, we

never quite made it to the
regular Nintendo system. We we

banked for enough years. But
finally, the when the SNES came

out, we were able to get that
one. But myself and my brother

played that for hours on end
every summer, especially when

the chore load was a little
lighter. And we go through that

we'd put hours and hours and
whenever it got hard, I always

had to give up because I'm just
not very good at video games.

And that was where I focused on
being the team player, if you

will, letting my brother take
over and say, "Hey, I need you

to beat this higher part of the
level". And then the other one

that I really loved was Zelda.

So between Mario and Zelda,
those were those were games that

I just, I'm still in love with
today. There's a lot of

nostalgia there. You know, the
kids nowadays have whatever the

newest Nintendo system is, the
switch, and I make sure to buy

all those games for them. Not
because they ask for them, but

just because I want to live
vicariously through them these

days.

Keith Hawkey: Yeah, right. Yeah,
spending entire summers playing

video games. Man, those were the
days, those definitely were the

days.

Ryan Lee: Lack of
responsibility, all the free

time in the world, and yeah,
just that, just that ability to

focus on that one thing to the
exclusion of all else, very

entertaining.

Keith Hawkey: I have a funny
story about video games. When I

was in middle school or high
school, this is about the time

that World of Warcraft was very
popular, and the wireless router

for our house was underneath my
parents bed. So I got into the

mischievous habit of sneaking up
into the computer room in the

middle of the night and getting
some gaming in and instead of

sleeping, flying into the sun,
and then I go and go to bed and

not be able to function the next
day in school, but so my parents

caught on to this, and they
would turn off the Wi Fi, and

they cut it off. And it's under
their bed. So I would basically

Mission Impossible style, sneak
in the middle of night, sneak

into the room, go crawl
underneath the bed, turn the Wi

Fi on, come out, do my stuff,
and then turn it back off before

the morning. This was my, this
is how I learned to be a secret

agent but,

Ryan Lee: Just doing the army
crawl into the room, if the door

squeaks, opening it a little bit
waiting for the sqeak to happen

then make sure everybody falls
back into a deep sleep and then

proceeding again.

Keith Hawkey: It was heart
pounding, but you know, you

know, I guess it was I guess in
my mind it was worth it to grind

out four bars of XP and then,

Ryan Lee: You got to work on,
you got to make sure that your

firemen more experienced with
the best of them, right? What

was your character of choice
then or your? So I never played

WOW, but most of my friends did,
so I know a lot about it, I just

am not super experienced
personally in it. But what was

your, it's not character choice,
type your what

Keith Hawkey: I was an undead
mage. And I did that there were

a couple of the classes I liked.

But the mage gain the ability
blink at level 20, which allows

you to teleport might be 20, 30
feet in front of you. And that

was the quickest way to get
around maps because there are

very few other classes that
could move and you couldn't buy

a horse or you couldn't do that
until way later in the game. So

I ended up just going with a
mage because I could move around

the map quicker. And I can just
burst people down quicker and it

just caught on. Yeah, lots of
fun with that. Last question.

Your funniest day in IT?

Ryan Lee: There's a lot of
those. Most of the days usually

are one of those, well we've
been here for the last 30 hours

straight because of some
emergency and everything that's

funny is likely only funny to us
because we're sleep deprived, we

have more caffeine and nicotine
than we know what to do with and

we're, you know, on a adrenaline
high from being stressed out on

some production system being
down for hours and hours. But

let's see, as far as the
funniest, let me think on that

for a second. So as far as the
funniest story that we've ever

had. Okay, so not extremely
appropriate, I won't give you

the details on what I was
labeling, but anyone that knows

me and has worked with me, knows
that I like to have systems and

standards in place, right? So I
come from a manufacturing

background, obviously, my first
job at Bobcat really taught me

that there's a there's a five
best strategy, you know,

straighten, sort, standardize.

I'm missing a couple of them,
they'll come to me in a little

bit. But essentially, you know,
everything has a place and

everything should be in that
place. And so labeling is a big

part of that. I like to label
things. When I'm working late at

night on a project that's been
going on for a long time and I

work with a lot of people that
I'm really close with. Sometimes

I might pull a few pranks on
some of the different folks I'm

working with. So I have this
label gun going, I'm on a

conference call with Microsoft,
we've been on the phone for I

don't know, three hours at this
point as they're troubleshooting

certain things relating to an
exchange failure that was

happening. And so I'm proceeding
to label stuff just because I

have free time and I don't need
to focus 100% on what I'm doing.

So I label, you know, my stapler
area, my tape area and all that

stuff and box it all off like we
like we do, and eventually I ran

out of things to label so I
start labeling just humorous

things. So I walk around
everybody's desk and everybody's

mouse gets labeled as mouse.

Everybody's keyboard gets
labeled as keyboard, which in

and of itself isn't super funny,
but when you come into work the

next day and literally
everything that you own has been

labeled with the very obvious
thing that it is, so this is my

mouse, my keyboard labeled as
keyboard or, you know, Joe's

keyboard. I had yeah, there was
some other items that I gave

maybe more inappropriate names
to or but label all those for

everybody in my immediate
vicinity. So they come back in

the next day and there's just
giggles for the next probably

four hours of the workday as
people are opening a drawer and

finding a pen or a bottle of
hand lotion or something that's

got whatever humorous label I
put on it.

Keith Hawkey: That, that does
sound funny. That's something

you'd see in The Office show.

Ryan Lee: I very much took a lot
of inspiration from that show

over the years.

Keith Hawkey: Did you ever put a
stapler in jello?

Ryan Lee: I never was motivated
enough to do it. But I often

thought about how much fun that
would be along with other

practical jokes and pranks
throughout the years.

Keith Hawkey: Yeah, speaking
about practical jokes, well, so

you had let's say you have
meeting with with one of your

business leaders, and the the
next thing they say is "Well

we're acquiring a new company,
and you're in charge with

integrating all the technology
associated with said company and

this merger or acquisition." Can
you tell us, tell me a little

bit about your exposure to
mergers and acquisitions? I

think you have a lot of
knowledge to impart upon IT

leaders that are struggling with
this process. Can you tell us a

little bit about your background
in this area?

Ryan Lee: Yeah. So when I
started back in my time as a

solutions architect, so one
thing that I'll say to any one

of those getting started in the
IT space is if you haven't had a

chance to work at an MSP or some
kind of consulting firm,

community services firms of some
sort, take that opportunity if

you can. There is nothing better
for quickly growing your skill

set for getting 10 years of
experience and knowledge dropped

on you in a period of a year or
two, just from the sheer

quantity of things you're doing,
right. So you're going to, for

example, I work at a large
organization and how often do

you upgrade firewalls? Every
five to seven years, right? So

you work there five years, you
might, if you've been there at

the beginning, might see one new
firewall put in in your time

there, unless they build out
some new offices, even then it's

only integrating with what's
already existing, you're not

planning it out from scratch or
anything. At an MSP, you're

gonna be doing one a week. Like
just the sheer volume,

repetition, you learn those
things so well, that it's

phenomenal. So a big thing that
we did was a lot of merger and

acquisition work for different
customers. So that's kind of

where I started with that. Once
I left the MSP going into an

engineering firm, we bought a
few companies over the years and

got to find out not from the
consulting side, but from the

business side, what's all
involved, and there's more

pieces, there's more financial
planning, there's more

discussions to be had with
business leadership, not just IT

leadership, and just a whole
host of things at DW Wiley,

where I worked at my last
company before my present one,

they had a parent company that
had gotten just lots and lots of

transportation groups. And we're
in the process of trying to

merge all these together. So I
got to see firsthand how a lot

of things didn't work well, and
introduced a lot of the

experience I learned at the MSP
and at the engineering firm to

help you find that strategy and
to integrate those systems,

processes, and people a lot more
easily. So that's the background

on me and my experience with
merger and acquisitions. I've

overseen, I can't even keep
track of how many companies I've

helped to merge and integrate,
whether it's through natural

merger and acquisition, building
out a new vertical that didn't

exist before, essentially, in my
mind, it's almost like a

startup, but they all have very
similar processes and

functionalities. So from that
point, I basically have a

framework that I like to follow.

I've mentioned that before,
right? That it's not the IT

systems, it's a lot of times the
people and that's usually where

everything starts, right. So
when you're looking at any kind

of merger, acquisition, a new
vertical that's getting spun up,

startup company, anything like
that, everybody in IT is going

to come out and what they're
gonna do is they're gonna Google

it first. "Hey, how do I deal
with a merger or acquisition,"

right? And you're gonna get the
same kind of advice, you're

gonna say, "Here's your due
diligence checklist, here's a

mid integration checklist that
you work with, and then here's

post integration activities." To
me that doesn't really encompass

what a merger and acquisition is
going to be. There's going to be

a lot of pre work that needs to
get done long before you ever

even hear whispers or a merger
or acquisition type activity.

And right away what that starts
with for me is relationship

building with your senior
leadership team, and the rest of

your IT group as a whole. So,
some of the first things that I

always hear from different
groups that I come in to, or

some of the kind of common
sayings that you'll hear is, you

know, "Leadership just makes
these decisions and doesn't tell

any of us about it", or, "Wow,
that sure would have been nice

to know, you know, before they
made that decision." And to me,

that's honestly just kind of a
cop out attitude. So I don't

know if you've ever read the
book, or multiple books that he

has out, but anything by Jocko
Willink?

Keith Hawkey: I haven't read his
books, but I've listened to his

podcast.

Ryan Lee: Yeah, so yeah, okay,
the podcast is a great example

of who and what Jocko is as a
person. He's an extreme

individual, so one of his most
famous books, called Extreme

Ownership really encompasses a
lot of my mentality on how to

really function in the IT
industry as a whole. So a lot of

what he teaches is, is that you
need to control anything and

everything that you have the
ability to control, whether it's

your responsibility, whether
it's in your scope of influence

or not, there's a lot of things
you can do if you just take

ownership for those things. So,
to me, building relationships

with your senior leadership team
is something that should have

been started long before there's
ever a discussion of a merger or

acquisition. And that is showing
the value of IT early in any

discussion that they have,
that's making sure that you have

that relationship so that you're
able to have a seat at the

table, when those senior
leadership meetings are

happening, when strategic
discussions are happening, that

you can inject ideas right at
the very beginning of that

process, instead of after the
fact or trying to play the catch

up game. And then really, it's
been known as innovator and

enabler, to getting the business
to the next level, so that they

are wanting to include you in
those discussions right away. A

lot of times, there's the idea
that IT is difficult to work

with, they're a roadblock, you
know, they just want to put

security in place and keep
things from happening and they

don't understand you know, how
to grow the business or how to

drive that. And honestly, a lot
of people aren't wrong when it

comes to that. A lot of places
I've walked into that's exactly

the mentality and mindset, IT
has taken is, you know, we

already are overworked, there's
already too much going on, we

can't add this to our plate. And
it's just no, no, no, instead of

yes, but. You know, and that,
yes, but makes a huge difference

when you're trying to build this
relationship and when you're

trying to have these
discussions. So yes, we can do

that, but we're going to have to
extend the timeline of this

other project, or we're going to
have to reduce the SLA on maybe

our daily operations for our
tickets. Yes, but this is going

to cost money because we're
going to need to bring in an

MSP. And instead of saying, No,
we just can't do that going,

here's how we actually find the
path forward to do these things

that you're looking at doing,
and talking in terms of

financials and the personnel and
the things that make sense to

business leaders. So that to me,
is really where everything

starts with is that relationship
building, making sure that you

have that foundation with your
leadership team. The next piece

is this is where I think a lot
of IT people are going to be

doing really well. This is the
stuff they're learning this is

the podcast, they're listening
to the training that they're

taking, is having like a really
robust SOA or service oriented

architecture built out so that
they can really handle some of

the discussions from the very
beginning. So there's a whole

lot more involved around SOA
than what I'm going to cover.

But there's kind of a few key
pieces. So the first one to me

is a portfolio of services and
systems. What do we do? How do

we do it? What do we use to do
it with, right? And if you have

that built out ahead of time,
when that discussion comes up,

it's going to help you in every
aspect of not only this

discussion, but IT in general.

It's going to help you with the
planning roadmaps, you're going

to have a skill set of matrix of
staff so you can see gaps that

you might have and where your
training needs to evolve to

next. You're going to have
intelligent, data driven

discussions on these abilities
and projects. That can happen

because of the current staff or
technology that you have in

place and then where you might
need to buy or change that

direction of that. And then of
course, it's going to help you

with your m&a activities as
well.

Keith Hawkey: That brings up a
an excellent point. How do you,

in joining a new organization
like you are, indicate that you

are very much in the mindset of
innovating, the IT and the

business technology segments of
the organization without calling

their baby ugly, and without
bringing dismay and any kind of

embarrassment to the existing IT
team or maybe someone they had

hired before that didn't work
out? How do you navigate that

conversation of it sounds maybe
more of a creative wording

problem than a logical problem.

But I'm sure that this is a
common thread. And a lot of new

newly hired IT leaders might
step on the toes of who they're

about to lead, in a way, and
they don't realize it.

Ryan Lee: So there's 100
different ways to do it and

they're different in every
scenario. And even that answer

probably alludes to exactly what
my answer is, is you got to play

the politics. So you need to
know the culture, the history of

the organization, you need to
know how they got there, why

they got there and come from a
place of empathy, really. So

what I've always told people and
I always have these

conversations right away to kind
of lay the framework, the

groundwork of who I am as a
person and what I think and feel

and that I'm not coming from a
place of judgment, but I'm

coming from a place of
improvement. So harking back to

my manufacturing days, there was
a phrase that Toyota was a

market leader in manufacturing
there, they're the gold

standard. They call it the
Toyota way. But you ever read

that book, it'll, it's mind
blowing, if you work in the

manufacturing world, and you
haven't read something like that

yet, or you're at a company that
follows a lot of their

processes. But anyway, they have
a slight tangent there, they

have a very common phrase called
Kaizen, it's, I don't remember

exactly how it's spelled, but
the essentials of it is

continuous improvement. So it
doesn't, you don't need to get

perfect on day one, like you
don't need to think about like

the Agile method in software
development, or even more,

following some kind of Scrum
framework or something like

that. But very much, it's you
don't need to get it perfect on

day one, you need to take what
you have and improve on it

daily. And you're going to be
lightyears ahead of where you

were, if you had spent a year
planning this project, or you

spent every day improving
incrementally this project, you

will be so far ahead at the end
of the year, than you would have

if you had just planned out
everything from the get go and

never made a move to actually
implement anything. And that's

where I like to introduce that
mindset right away into the

group and say, I'm not here to
judge or to degrade what has

been done in the past. Or I'm
here to take an accurate

assessment of what we have to
come in and look at where we're

trying to get to and to
collaboratively figure out with

you what we need to do to get to
the next step. So, and I'm super

clear right away, if there's one
thing that I like to do is be

very transparent in all of my
conversations with my staff,

with my management team, and
with any of my peers to say,

look, my goal, my ultimate goal
is to make the company more

effective to make money for the
company because a company that's

making money that's more nimble,
it's more agile, it's more

effective, is a company that's
not doing layoffs, it's a

company that's gonna give up big
bonuses, it's a company that's

going to continue to have market
leading salaries, things like

that. So anyone that says, you
know, we're not interested in

doing those things is clearly
lying, or doesn't want to be at

the company in the first place
because the ultimate goal of

every business, right is to make
money. Yes, there's people,

there's fun things to do,
there's a mission, there's

values, all of that, but the
underlying cause of any business

in the world, the the very
fundamental thing that exists is

money. So if you can have that
discussion around the fact that,

yeah, I don't want to sound like
some kind of money hungry.

Keith Hawkey: Well it matters,
yeah. But that's, that's the

Language of Business. And that's
what, that's what keeps people

employed. And that's what keeps
people with their jobs. And I

don't think that I don't think
it's entirely void of ethics and

some of the perceptions that's
tied to money. It's very much

rooted in a means of living.

Yeah. So yeah, I think that's

Ryan Lee: I couldn't agree more.

And that's where I come with. So
that's when I came with that

conversation is, that's what I'm
looking at, that's what I'm

talking about. I'm not here to
judge or tell you that you did a

terrible job. I'm here to go,
here's our app today, where's

the next level that we want to
get to and we should all want to

get there. And then what do we
do? Sometimes that might be

scrapping somebody's baby,
right? That this is a system, a

piece of software, an ERP
platform, a custom developed,

program that you made, for
whatever that no longer has the

value that it used to, and isn't
meeting the needs of the

business that it used to. Having
kind of that open frank

discussion of, hey, here's what
the business needs and letting

them help come to that same
conclusion to say, you know,

this isn't what the business
needs anymore. So how do we

repurpose this system or
reintroduce a new system that

you can now manage and maintain?

And that's scary for a lot of
people. Change is scary.

Learning new systems is scary.

Wondering, Hey, am I going to be
obsolete along with the system?

And trying to ensure everybody
that's on your team to know, No,

I'm going to, we're just going
to pivot. We're not going to

just cut you off and say, you're
done we don't need you anymore.

We're gonna pivot, you're going
to learn new things, we're going

to continue to grow and adapt as
a company. And as a team.

Keith Hawkey: Yeah, I think even
the term pivot sounds less scary

than change. Even just the word
smithing? Switching gears here,

with with your experience, I'd
like to get your opinion on,

maybe this has to do with
manufacturing, maybe it is

general to to IT, but what
technology have you been exposed

to in the last maybe year,
couple of years that has changed

the business that's had the most
impact to could be

manufacturing, could be in
general. But what technology

should IT leaders that haven't
evaluated up until now, take a

look at to see how it might
impact the bottom line and it

might change the evolution of
what the organization is trying

to do.

Ryan Lee: So I'm gonna sound
more and more like a politician

every time I answer a question
here, but the colloquial it

depends, right? So it and what I
mean by it depends, is it's

going to be every stage of a
person's career and the company

itself. So to me, things that
have really changed when I was

an individual contributor, when
I was an engineer working on

data centers and things like
that was virtualization, right?

That was huge. So the ability to
consolidate just from a physical

footprint, the ability to
dynamically adjust resources to

know, hey, I can no longer need
to plan out everything

perfectly, because I'm buying a
system that I need to support

for the next seven years to go,
hey, I can buy this big beefy

host. And I can adjust the
Amazon there as needed to throw

more around, throw more CPU, to
add storage, reduce storage to

migrate off of that platform to
a new one. That kind of stuff

was huge to me, but then coming
in as an IT manager, coming in

as a supervisor, looking at the
overall direction of the

department, that technology
isn't big to me anymore, what is

a lot bigger, to me, is the same
fundamental piece of nobody's

gonna plan perfect, nobody's
gonna know what's coming in two

years to the business. And
things are gonna get introduced

that you never expected whether
that's buying a new company,

whether that's a pandemic that
nobody expected, that's going to

completely paradigm shift the
way business is done the way

certain markets even have demand
for your service or product that

you're providing, or just the
working environment of the group

as a whole. So to me, it's, it's
things that introduce

adaptability. And where I see
that coming almost more than

anything is cloud services. So
anyone that knows me knows I'm a

big fan of what the cloud can
provide from a adaptability

standpoint. So people talk, you
know, there's, there's cost

savings, there's all of these
things. And there is sometimes

if you're really good at
planning, if you're expert level

knowledge in say Azure, and you
can define exactly what size

systems and everything that you
need. But a lot of times that's,

that's not the lowest hanging
fruit on the tree, as far as

what's transformational. It's,
it's just that adaptability,

it's the ability to come in and
say, Hey, I don't need to have a

five year plan for hardware
anymore. I need to have a growth

plan that can address any change
in the business needs and I can

respond to what that cost is
going to be almost immediately.

So if we go hey, we're, we're
hiring another 500 people today,

we have a big VDI environment
built out, I can tell you, it's

100 bucks a user per month for
every new person you hire. And

we can plan out from a financial
standpoint exactly how that's

going to impact business
operations. I can say, for every

10, 15 people, we need one more
load balanced server for our web

application or for our whatever
this ends up being. And that's

the kind of stuff that you can
model out and have tabletop

exercises. have scenarios that
will allow you to plan for

really any environment, and
really allows you to show the

value of IT in general to the
rest of the business

organization because they can
ask a question and you can

immediately have an answer
instead of saying I have to get

back to you in seven weeks, you
can go, you know, once I get

quotes back from a vendor, you
can go, nope, this is the cost

anything you do, let me plug in
a new headcount, let me plug in

a new, whatever. And that will
dynamically adjust that cost

back to that services and
technology portfolio I'm talking

about, if you have that catalog
of equipment of whatever it is,

you plug in a headcount number,
and you tell your CFO exactly

what it's going to cost to get
to the next stage.

Keith Hawkey: It sounds to me or
reminds me of earlier in our

conversation, where you express
the value of "Yes, but." That

almost sounds like you can
switch this phrase to "Yes,

and."

Ryan Lee: Yeah, exactly.

Keith Hawkey: Yes, and this.

Yes, and we can work remote and
we don't have to plan for that.

Yes, and if you want to open the
new plant in Malaysia, it's not

a problem because we have
vendors that can support it,

because then we don't have to
worry about importing equipment,

we don't have to worry about the
on prem contracts. We're not

tied, we're nimble now. So much
of the conversation, like you

said earlier, if you speak to
cloud vendors, they speak, they

talk a lot about about the
savings and if you look at

those, sometimes there's
savings, but if you dig into the

details of their forecasts, they
are planning, they're assuming

that you are spending absorbent
amounts of money on your

existing technology. So more
times than not, it's not

savings, the savings come from
the opportunity costs of not

being able to change.

Ryan Lee: And the intangibles of
what you've missed out on

because yeah, exactly what you
said the opportunity cost is,

that's a huge piece that is hard
to quantify and it's something

that when you build those
relationships, when you

establish that trust, build that
political and relationship

capital with the rest of your
group appears. That's the kind

of stuff that people see over
time where they go, Hey, this

guy is making changes but I
haven't noticed a difference. As

long as you're not making a
negative impact on the budget,

on the timelines on the
whatever, right away, awesome.

You're doing everything you
should as a leader, and it's

that down the road stuff where
they go, you know, I remember

all the time needing to put in
tickets, and I wouldn't get

responded to in a week, right?

These projects would go so much
longer than I ever thought

possible and now my expectations
are so unrealistic at how quick

they're gonna get done because
what IT has proven to me.

Honestly, sometimes it sucks for
the next guy that comes in that

might not have that same
experience on adaptability to

go, Well, you know, the old guy
used to do this or you know,

used to do that in a week, why
is it going to take you a month?

Well, that's what experience
buys you a lot of times.

Keith Hawkey: Yeah. No, yeah, I
completely agree. What do you

see with cloud adoption?

Everyone talks about cycles of,
well, we're moving to the cloud

now and we're going to move back
to on prem, in the future, it'll

be maybe a small form factor.

It'll be, there'll be some
invention to make it more

feasible. Maybe it's latency,
maybe it's, you know, the edge

and the footprint the edge
presents when, particularly when

it comes to manufacturing, maybe
its security of what brings it

back. With all the investment
data centers today, I don't see

us moving back unless there's
some AI reinvention to move back

to on prem. But do you see a
cyclical nature in this, what

would be the drivers of us to
move back because I hear this

from everybody. That everything
in IT is cyclical, including

moving toward a Managed Cloud,
Managed hosted environment

Ryan Lee: So a lot of times what
you're going to see in scenarios

somewhere else.

like that is kind of a drastic
change in the business needs or

in the market or industry that
you're looking at, or more often

than not, it's going to be some
sort of requirements, compliance

requirements. So you're
following some sort of GDPR, if

you're following some sort of
PCI or PII compliance piece that

requires this, or a framework
that you need to follow that you

used to need to, some sort of
DOD requirements is the typical

one where I see that happening,
but really, if you haven't just

followed the latest trend or the
newest fad in IT just to say I

want to get on the bandwagon
because everybody else is doing

it and haven't planned it out,
you're not gonna see as much of

that cyclical nature that you're
talking about, just in general

in the IT group. So to me, I
kind of balance out everything

like I hate, I just absolutely
hate going all in on something.

Like I hate going, companies
that look at, you know, oh, we

want to outsource all like all
of IT and we just want somebody

to manage the MSP and it's gonna
give us resources. Or somebody

saying, we want to go all cloud,
I don't want to ever see

anything on prem again. Or
somebody saying, you know, I'm a

Mac only shop, or I'm a Windows
only shop, and there's no

possibility of bringing anything
else into the environment. To me

like that's, that's the kind of
reason that you're going to see

a cyclical nature and if you
plan out your implementation,

your approach, and your strategy
just from a business standpoint,

first, and not from a tech fad
standpoint, you won't see nearly

as much of that cyclical nature,
you might see shifts left or

right. But you won't have a
complete paradigm change of one

environment to another and the
reason is, so we'll take cloud

as an example, if I come in on a
cloud environment, and I say, we

want to start leveraging the
cloud because it doesn't exist

at this company today. I'm not
going to go, I want you to cut

everything off and move over
there. What I'm going to do is,

I want a planned approach to
move certain strategic

applications that need a global
footprint, for accessibility, or

for latency, or for whatever. A
lot of times reliability is the

big one for me on why I make
that change, why I make that

shift, because Azure is gonna
give me better uptime than

anything I can buy in house at
any company I've ever worked

for. I've worked for billion
dollar companies, they're still

not investing the same amount of
money that Azure is putting into

its data centers or planning it
out. And I'm not planning out my

data center as well as they are.

And I built out quite a few data
centers over the years, there's

no way I'm planning it out
better than the experts at

Microsoft, or Amazon or Google,
for their data centers. I've

just not, it's not going to
happen. So what I'll do is I'll

move strategic applications over
and I'll have a hybrid

environment. Everything kind of
in moderation, right. So I have

a hybrid environment on my cloud
footprint, I'll have a on prem

footprint for certain things
that makes sense, or to extend

out the useful life of a non
critical system. So say I need

just a myriad of VMs that are
for a certain project, I can

throw those on some old legacy
systems. And if the host dies,

the host dies. I'll restore from
backup, I only need it once a

month, whatever, I'm not paying
as much of that runtime fee that

I would be on some sort of cloud
environment instead of just

paying electricity. And at the
end of the day, if it really

goes south, then I can move it
to the cloud, because I already

have, say, Azure disaster
recovery set up or something

like that, where that VM already
exists, and I can just spin it

up there and go, Okay, our costs
are going to fluctuate slightly

on a per month basis, but that's
about it.

Keith Hawkey: Yeah, it reminds
me of the business side, the CIO

approach, or the CEO approaching
the CIO and saying, we need to

move everything to the cloud and
the CIO, learning to say, "Yes,

but this," "Yes, but this
application, I don't think it's,

I think it's going to cost us
more in the cloud because of

this reason or that reason."
We're running up on toward the

end of the podcast and one thing
that I like to do is give you a

chance, Ryan, to if you could
present a message to every up

and comer, middle of the road,
end of the career IT

professional and leader, a word
of advice, or what I actually

think is a little bit more
interesting, a word of don't do

this. Don't, don't go about your
business in this way, It'll cost

you. You can approach this
either way you'd like yeah, you

can say this is my advice, or
this is something that you

should avoid. But what would
your message be? If suddenly it

was on a billboard everywhere in
the world, and only IT people

would see?

Ryan Lee: So there's a couple
pieces to that and it depends on

where a person's at in their
career. So a lot of very

advanced senior level engineers,
sis admins, software developers,

whatever, have reached a place
in their career where they know

a lot and they feel like there's
not a lot more growth for them

to be had. And I think that is
just a really poor approach and

a really poor attitude to take
on the IT journey as a whole. So

when you're far along in your
career, my biggest piece of

advice is to just always be
learning, always be humble, and

always be willing to adapt, and
to change and find new things.

So just because you're a Cisco
engineer for the last 20 years,

and you love and know Cisco
CUCM, or something like that,

that's not the way of things
anymore. Like there's still

environments where that makes
sense, there's call centers or

super large companies, but a lot
of times, you're going to look

at some sort of cloud platform,
whether that's 8x8, or

RingCentral, or Teams Calling
whatever that is. That's the new

way of things, so be willing to
learn, find out what those

systems are, and don't be stuck
on the past, when that just

doesn't fit a lot of the small
to medium business size

environments anymore. For people
young in their career, the

biggest pitfall that I've seen
over and over and over again, is

you're young, you're hungry,
you're kind of green in the

environment and you get out at a
company you love, and you have a

great attitude, you start to
learn things, and the God

Complex takes over. So all of a
sudden, you know more than the

end users do, because you're in
the backend of the system, you

get all of this privileged
access that nobody else is

getting and it starts to affect
your attitude. And the reason

you were hired in the first
place, it's not because of your

skill set, you don't have any
when you come on as an intern or

an entry level employee with
zero years of experience out of

college. You came on because of
the attitude that the hiring

manager liked and because of the
capability or the potential that

they saw on you. So where you
start to go south, where you

start to burn that relationship
with that manager is when you

start to get that God Complex,
or you start to be degrading of

the end users and say, Well, you
know, they don't know, you know,

how dumb could they be that
they, you know, set this

password, or they didn't know
what to click on this thing? Or

do whatever? And my always
answer that is I'm like, yeah,

that person doesn't know how to
make some sort of change on

their endpoint, or you know how
to add email to their phone, or

whatever it is. But on the same
token, you know, say you're in

the medical industry, that
person knows how to reattach

some nerves in your spine that
allow you to walk again. So

maybe let's have a little bit of
empathy for what it is that they

are good at, and not expect them
to know everything there is to

know about IT, because that's
your job, they have a different

job. We have functional skill
sets that we focus on to get

economies of scale. Let's worry
about that kind of stuff and not

bring the attitude into the
environment as a whole. But stay

humble, stay hungry, let's stay
energized and willing to help.

And those are the kinds of
things that are gonna allow you

to succeed. When I'm hiring
staff, there's a make or break

it decision that happen right
off the bat and that's attitude

and certain soft skills that the
employee displays. If they pass,

then there's a next set of, you
know, fruit on the fruit tree

that you're reaching for, which
is, you know, the the minimum

skill sets to actually do the
job perform the function that is

you're looking at performing.

But if I can see on your resume
that you have 30 years

experience, managing whatever
environment, but you come in

with a bad attitude, you're
immediately ticked off the list.

I'm never going to consider you.

And that's the kind of stuff
that people need to be aware of

is that the attitude is the make
it or break it thing. The skill

sets are after that, on a lot of
places, a lot of my peers, a lot

of hiring managers what they
say, that's what they're looking

for first is attitude. So come
in humble, stay humble, stay

hungry.

Keith Hawkey: That's beautiful.

Man, I gotta say, Ryan, I've
been thoroughly impressed by the

wisdom and the your overall
philosophy not only in tackling

IT challenges, but the human
elements of the IT department

today. All great advice.

Speaking of that, how can people
find you?

Ryan Lee: Yeah, I'm usually very
active on LinkedIn. So that is,

to me, the non political, non
religious, non controversial, it

is still, but I tried to limit
as much controversialness out of

LinkedIn as I can. But that's
where I go to learn. So my

peers, the people, I follow the
companies, I follow everything

on there, they're going to
repost new articles, they're

going to be some of the first
people to alert me on what new

vulnerabilities in the in the
environment that's coming out,

you know, whether it's a zero
day or whether it's a new

architecture, whether it's a new
set of requirements for some

sort of framework that you're
following. That's where I see a

lot of the stuff very first and
so I am usually very active on

there. Reposting articles I've
seen that I think will help out

my connections, my peers, and
then just finding out people

that are going to add some value
to my life, whether it's the

inspiration that they provide,
whether it's the knowledge they

provide, or just the camaraderie
that they provide. I've had

people that I've made friends
with on LinkedIn, purely because

of either content they're
posting or that I'm posting that

I find really speaks to me that
I've never met in real life and

we chat regularly. I exchange
emails back and forth with

different IT managers,
directors, VP's that I've never

met in real life and we just
have a really shared set of

interests. So, Linkedin's the
main place that you can find me,

that's where I'm going to be the
most available. I have all of

the other social media
platforms, the Facebook,

Instagram, Twitter, whatever,
not super active on them. I

follow them for the food videos,
I follow them for the funny cat

videos, you know. Twitter,
honestly, the only thing I use

it for is checking out images
from Microsoft or Cisco or any

of the big providers there
because that's usually one of

the first places they'll post.

Look at a second on whatever
their actual outage notification

page is or is it down.com,
whatever, but Twitter's where I

see a lot of that first. So, as
old as that makes me sound

that's literally as nerdy as
that makes me sound, that's why

I'm on Twitter and some of the
other platforms.

Keith Hawkey: If it works, it
works. So yeah, we'll post your

LinkedIn and again, Ryan, thank
you immensely for joining the

podcast. I certainly found the
actual conversation valuable.

And that's it, folks. We'll
catch you on the next one.

Ryan Lee: Awesome, well thanks
for having me and look forward

to connecting with anyone that
hears from me on here and I'm

happy to connect and stay in
touch and give advice if

anybody's looking for it. So
have a great day.

Narrator: Thanks for listening.

The IT Matters podcast is
produced by Opkalla an IT

advisory firm that helps
businesses navigate the vast and

complex IT marketplace. Learn
more about Opkalla at

opkalla.com