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Authentic, Authoritative, Unapologetic ServiceNow commentary by Cory "CJ" Wesley and Robert "The Duke" Fedoruk
Duke: Okay, Corey, you mind
if I give the intro this time?
CJ: Oh man.
So we're gonna, we're
gonna change things up.
Let's do it.
Duke: So I have been involved in a
lot of conversations over the past
little bit about engagement managers.
I've just had a lot more people
who are new to the ecosystem
who are curious about the role.
, I've talked to people about the
differences about PMs and ems and so
Corey and I thought maybe it would
be a cool idea since we've done
the admin, the ba, the architect,
the implementation consultant.
Maybe we do an episode that talks
exclusively about engagement managers.
What do you say, Corey?
CJ: Yeah, let's do it Duke.
. Duke: So I guess the first
question obviously is, what
does an engagement manager do?
CJ: Yeah, man.
So that's a really good question.
I'm going to punt that one to
you and let you start it off,
Duke: my interactions with engagement
managers has been when a project has
big teams on both sides, So you're,
you have an organization in all its
stakeholders in a ServiceNow deployment.
And the partner, the services
partner has a bunch of people
coming to the table as well, right?
So you've got an architect, you've
got devs, you've got, you know,
maybe BA people, some QA people, and
CJ: people.
Duke: Exactly.
Now does everybody just talk to everybody?
Yeah.
A couple of BS people for sure.
Yeah.
but does everybody talk to everybody?
No, everything kind of filters
up on, both sides, right?
There's a prime person on the
customer side, and there's a prime
person on the, service provider side.
And I would say that prime person is the
engagement manager on the services side.
CJ: Got
Duke: is, it is the face of the project.
CJ: Okay.
Duke: From the on the delivery side,
the customer has a face too, right?
That's the prime stakeholder.
The person who calls all the shots,
the person you're doing it for.
The person who's most involved in the
day-to-day, But what do you call the
equivalent of that on the delivery side?
The person who answers for everybody
else, and I say, that's an engagement
manager, and we're gonna see there's
gonna be some gray areas, right?
Because a lot of people have probably
been in situations where it's like,
oh, I know that person, but they didn't
call themselves an engagement manager.
Nevertheless, that's the role
they're playing in that moment,
CJ: all right.
Okay.
I'll follow you now.
So it's basically, so we're looking
at the engagement manager that whether
or not you're actually actually dubbed
that, those specific words as the person
who is manag the engagement and talking
to the other side of the other size
person who's managing that engagement.
Right.
Like just to.
Just kind of trying to herd all the
cats and keep everything in line and
making sure it gets to the goal line.
So then let's ask this question, dude.
What's the difference
between an EM and a pm?
Duke: Okay, so I would, uh, Colleen
falling in line with what an
engagement manager does, right?
They're the, the face of the project
and a PM can sometimes be that as well,
CJ: Okay.
Duke: but we also know PMs
that aren't that person.
CJ: True, right?
Like so I, okay, so I, so the
right, cuz the PM is often a lot
more in tune with the deliverable
side of it and not necessarily
managing the project as a concept,
Duke: So I would say it's kind of like the
EM is acting as the face of the project,
the single source of accountability.
Um, and also the prime, faced organizer.
And when I say that, I mean it in
the ways that all that the PM is not.
So a PM might be like, well I know
that we have to do all these workshops
and they have to be in sequence.
Cause each one relies
on the, on the previous.
And I know that that must become before
we do a, deliver deliverables review.
And that happens to happen
before we do a whatever.
Okay.
So the PM is gonna like, organize all that
Structure the work, but the em, I think
is the person who's gonna be like, okay,
so first workshop is about discovery,
so we're gonna need your ser, someone
from your server team, someone from
your network team, and blah, blah, blah.
How do we go about finding those people?
Customer, can you please
gimme a list of their names?
I'm gonna go get this organized.
We'll send out an invite.
You see what I mean?
Like they're the people.
The motive force, the people who will
actually do compulsively do the things
that the organization of it requires.
make any sense.
CJ: Yeah, I, I think I'm
following this right.
So the em is, is the person, right,
who is charged with not just the
deliverables of the project, right?
Because that's the project manager.
The project manager is calling
people like me as an architect,
saying, Hey, did you do this thing?
When is it gonna be complete?
One of your developers gonna
finish their stories, right?
Like that sort of thing.
And they're reporting up to the em,
the em, em is basically calling the
other side, like, Hey, all right,
so we've got these things scheduled,
or do you have your people ready?
These things we're gonna do, we need
to report up the management on this
date, and you know, we're gonna make
sure we have this presentation done
for 'em so they can understand the
value and where we are in this thing.
And really just kind of being that single
source of truth for the project from
that per that side of, of the engagement.
Duke: It's a shame.
I gotta think about this in terms
of like when it goes wrong, right?
But when an implementation starts
going wrong and a customer has like
significant issues that they wanna
address, like I had a customer once
where the partner came in, they had
like a team of bas, they had a team of
developers, but they were all offshore.
And so it was basically
requirements gathering.
Went to the BAS in our meetings and
then we come in the next day or the
next few days and we'd, we'd see the
development and it was all wrong.
CJ: Right,
Duke: And it was just like, do
we, do we scream at the bas?
No, it was fundamentally a problem
with the structure of the project.
It was like, oh, you can't talk
to the developers cuz they're
in a different time zone.
Well, excuse me, who's the customer here?
Right?
But we're having that conversation
with the engagement manager.
We're not happy about this.
CJ: Right.
Duke: not happy about.
Who's got the authority
to make this thing change?
CJ: Hmm.
Duke: Okay, so the engagement manager
says, you write, you're absolutely right.
Let's get an onshore
developer into the mix.
Let's, you know, maybe we
don't need as many bas or
whatever, you know what I mean?
But they have, they, like, on top of being
the face, they also have the authority
to , change the parameters of the project.
CJ: So the chief stakeholder
for the delivery side?
Duke: Yes, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And I the perfect metaphor
in my mind is just the face.
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: Right.
When we, when when you and I talk,
I talk to your face, you talk to my
face, you don't talk to my hands,
you don't talk to my feet, even
though they're, you know, critical in
whatever it is we do together, right?
But it's just like we
talk to each other's face.
This is the, the engagement
managers is that face
CJ: that makes sense to me.
All right, so I'm, I'm seeing
a distinction now, right?
Like between the engagement manager
and the project manager, because
the project manager does have a
different manifest sort of, duty in the
project than the engagement manager.
All right, so what makes
a good engagement manager?
Duke: Okay.
What makes a good engagement manager?
So when I look at the, of the successful
implementations and the engagement
managers that I've enjoyed working with
and like just everything went smooth is a
certain amount of confidence and charisma,
the intangibles of human behavior,
?
we like this person, we don't
know why is this cool to hang out
with them, this person, right?
Like the people who are,
that are naturally likable.
CJ: Right,
Duke: and charismatic, when they
walk into the room, everybody
notices that they walk into the room.
When they talk, everybody else goes quiet.
Right.
they have that intangible
presence about them.
CJ: Press.
I like that.
Duke: Right.
The gravitas, that's
the word you use, right?
CJ: yeah, yeah.
The grandma's house.
Duke: Yeah.
There's, there's a presence about 'em.
And it helps because you're about
to walk into a place and tell them
like a new way of living essentially.
CJ: Yeah.
And you're gonna have to make
them understand, you're gonna
have to convince them of it.
Right.
Like you want them to agree with
Duke: Yeah, there's a
persuasiveness about it.
and so obviously the more naturally
persuasive you are, the more
success you're gonna have with that.
And I also think of charisma in terms
of like a coolness and a calmness,
Because a lot of their value is if and
when things start getting uncomfortable.
Like the customer is really pissed off
about, okay, well how come I can, how
come we can never talk to the developers?
Because all your developers are
offshore and you're only giving me
people onshore who can't tell me what's
going on with the developers, and I'm
pissed, and now it's your problem.
CJ: right.
And then this in person slides in,
it's like, oh, whoa, calm down.
Duke: No, you're, you know
what, no, I, that's absolutely,
you're absolutely right.
That's a terrible, place for us to be in.
So, I have the authorization
to change the parameters.
This project, I'm acting all
like, I'm like, I got the
confidence charisma, right?
But, but you see what I mean?
They have to be the kind of person
who is in the middle of the storm.
They can just handle it.
They can get yelled at.
They can be the person who has the
finger pointed into their chest.
You know what I mean?
They will receive.
the anger, the discomfort, the negative
energies of when things start going wrong.
CJ: So, I mean, the next thing too for me
right then is that this person needs to
be trusted, not just by the organization
that they're representing, but also
with the client organization too, right?
The client has to trust that they have
the authority on their side of the
fence to get things done and the um,
the, on the deployment side, right?
They have to have that trust
internally that when they come to,
you know, internally and say, Hey,
This client is really on the lash.
We really need to talk 'em down,
and to do that, we need to change
our development methodology.
They need to have that trust internally
to be able to make that happen.
Duke: I think also an exceptional
level of narrative building,
CJ: Okay.
Duke: if, especially on longer
projects, it really matters
that everybody understands the
successes that we've had so far.
CJ: Yeah.
Right.
Duke: know what I mean?
So we keep the momentum up.
It's not like, Christmas where
everybody's waiting until the night
before the go live to see if we
get something cool under the tree.
CJ: Yeah, no.
Right.
Like by the, it is, none of
this stuff should be a surprise.
Right.
And I think, I think sometimes
we, you know, we, we forget
about that when we're, when we're
actually doing deployments, right?
Or any kind of, uh, a project,
the, the outcome of this
should never be a surprise.
Like there should never be a
point in the project, That.
We are uncertain what's going to
happen next week or next month or
next sprint or what have you, right?
Like all this stuff
should be communicated.
Everybody should be more
withstanding for major things, right?
I mean, things pop up, right?
Like this feature might be a little
harder to develop than we thought.
But at the end of the day, if the go
live is on May 1st, we should know
that we are gonna be able to hit May
1st date or not way before May 1st.
we shouldn't be surprised on April
15th that we can't hit May 1st.
That's the project Fair.
And, and telling that story to
your stakeholders and telling
that story to your clients, right?
Like, so do they understand where we are,
I think is one of the most critical skills
of a, of an engagement manager, right?
Because that's so perception, right?
Like, can, could really throw a
project off, we could be doing
everything well, but if our client
thinks that we're screwing up, like
that's all that really matters.
Duke: that's right.
, it's like constant pulse checks,
how do you feel about us going and,
and, and it, you see what I mean?
How like there's, a part of this that is
beyond the project manager, So how do you
feel about how things are going to, do
you feel like you're being listened to?
Like, are we going after the outcomes
that we originally thought, you know,
a pulse check and, and that has nothing
to do with cost, schedule, scope.
Well, maybe scope, I don't know.
But you know what I mean.
It feels like it's beyond
just the, we are off schedule,
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: we are, but maybe everybody's
happy about it because we're
factoring for something else.
But
CJ: Yeah, maybe.
Maybe we scope creeped a little bit
and it was acceptable scope creep, so
that put us off schedule a little bit.
But everybody's okay with that, right?
Because know what they're getting.
We've communicated the value of
what they're getting, and we've
communicated extensively on how that
that additional value took us off scope
and off schedule, and everybody's fine.
Right?
Duke: now what I also know is to talk
about narrative, capability is, somebody
who can build a good narrative, kind of
understands what their audience wants.
I.
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: Okay, so I was in a meeting,
this is like one of my clients I was
at, and, I was kind of like the Far
Architect episode, remember, I, I was
like the independent architect that
was just there to like, be advice
for the customer and not trying
to scale up my operations there.
And they had a, a, a large partner in
with a large team, very large team.
And it was just kind of in the
opening phases of the project.
And , the prime stakeholder on the
customer side said something like, and
this is the consultants we brought
in and the engagement manager, like
flat out interrupted her on the call.
And said, oh no, I have to stop you there.
I have, I have to stop you there because,
we're not just consultants, we're partners
and it, diminishes what we offer to your
organization if you call us consultants.
And so we have to be called
partners for this implementation
because that's what we are for you.
And I'm just like, you know what?
A partner wouldn't have interrupted
me in the middle of my speech, in
front of my peers to say that.
CJ: Yes.
Okay.
Right, and that, I think that is one of
the right tact would be another one of
the skills that an engagement manager.
I have, right?
The ability to know when, when to
speak up and when not to, right?
Duke: it was, it is an
entirely bad narrative.
You completely miss the fact that
if you want to be the partner,
prove you're the partner.
Don't just like demand to
be, you know what I mean?
CJ: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Duke: I demand you.
Perceive me in this way.
Well
CJ: No,
Duke: man.
CJ: no.
Like you don't, you need
to do the thing, right?
Like if you do the thing, then we
will think you are the, person, right?
Who does the thing, that's what it
comes down to, I don't tell people that
I'm a ServiceNow architect by going in.
I talk to 'em and they're like, man, that
guy, ServiceNow architect, they get it.
man, you've nailed more about
ServiceNow than anybody I've ever met.
And I'm like, great, thank you.
I appreciate that.
I didn't tell you that though, but you
just got it, and then, I don't know, like
it's one of the things, and it's, you
know, like limit of a tangent, right?
Because I talk a little bit about,
you know, myself for a minute, but
one of the things that I, that I often
get told when I come into a, uh, an
engagement, right, is that nobody ever
talks about these things like you do.
Right.
Or nobody ever just this aspect of thing.
Right?
And I feel like that's the thing that
engagement managers are supposed to
bring to the table as well, the ability
to talk about the project in a way
that's different from the way that your
technical folks are talking about it.
Even your architect, even your project
manager, like and it goes back to
that narrative building, right?
The ability to, to really
take the confidence, right?
That calm, cool collectiveness
that they have and project
it out to the client, right?
So that they now also feel confident
in this implementation, right?
They now are home and
cool about it, right?
Duke: and just being able
to see it in other people.
Like, you know, when you can tell
like, that person is uncomfortable.
So that means I have a job to do
if I'm the engagement manager.
Like I've gotta like, okay, I've gotta
figure out why they look uncomfortable.
CJ: yeah.
Oh my God.
Duke: not only that, but I've gotta like
give them a pathway out of the discomfort.
CJ: Yes, yes.
oh my God, right?
It's like build your enemy, a golden
bridge upon which to retreat, right?
and so like, it's the same thing here.
When, when you're in a
conference room, right?
When you've got a bunch of stakeholders
here and one of them who has
a, maybe a, a influence, right?
It is looking uncomfortable.
You wanna figure that person out, right?
You wanna figure out what's got them
looking uncomfortable and what you need to
do to get that person back to status quo.
So you want to build them that
bridge upon what you can retreat from
that discomfort back to status quo.
An engagement manager has to recognize
that in the moment and help them get back.
Duke: So just add kind of like, um,
you know, freelance psychologist to the
whole engagement manager skill list.
CJ: Man, but this is true, right?
Like these things, you know, dude,
these are the things that, uh, you
know, they really intrigue me about
the profession that I, I don't think.
Are really covered all that often and,
and, and, you know, at a macro level.
So I I maybe it's the meta stuff, right?
It's the meta details about
what we do, , in terms of being
ServiceNow professionals, right?
But you do need to be a bit of a, person
who can do a little bit, I guess a
layman psychoanalysis, right in the
moment, Might be able to understand when
you're in the presence of who might be.
getting a little challenged
by what you dream, right?
And trying to understand, you know,
what it was, you know, that, that they
picked up on, that they don't like,
and how to, resolve that situation.
Mention, These are the thi right,
these, this is the difference.
Sorry, I'm, I'm going on.
But, uh, this is the, this
is the difference, right?
But that separates folks from being just
a service developer and a consultant.
Like when you're a consultant, you, you
bring these additional skills, these
additional sauce to the table, right?
That a allow you to add that
additional value in these ways.
Duke: That's a great segue
to the next point, because.
Probably by now, our listeners
have probably said, wait a minute.
I know a lot of people who fill this
kind of role look and act that way.
but they don't call themselves
engagement managers.
And to, to that, I say, yeah, how
many other ServiceNow jobs in our
space can be an amalgam of two jobs.
how many admins do you know can also dev?
How many bas do you know can also dev?
How many like certified
implementation, specialists for
S SPM can also do I I T S M.
We know that one body can encompass
more than one role a lot of the times.
So maybe we talk about some of the
most likely places where EMS overlap.
CJ: Yeah.
Uh, so that's a, that's a good
place, duke to, to segue actually.
The first thing I'd say
is independent consultant.
Are typically, the a place where you'll
find engagement manager like skills,
I mean, especially if you are a person
who is parachuted into a gig and
you're the only person on it, right?
Which often happens to me, right?
Like when I'm an independent consultant,
I sh I show up and I'm the only person
on the, on that ServiceNow team, at
least from an outside perspective,
And so there's no pm, There's just me.
He's an expert and them
as a, uh, in a need.
And then I gotta try to
manage this whole thing.
From what value are you looking
to try to, uh, achieve the
platform and how do we get there?
How do we build the narrative, for the
people above you that we're generating
success so that you also look good while
we're doing this and they don't look.
Look like they're just throwing
money into a hole because they hired
a consultant on, on, and on, right?
Like this whole skill set that we just
talked about, that a, uh, em brings to
the table as an independent consultant
who's running a, a project, just by a
virtue that you're the only person on it.
You need to really have
those skills as well.
Duke: Yeah, I mean really what else
would you be if you are your own
face for your own set of services?
Right?
CJ: Right.
Duke: who else flies cover for you?
who else like stands in front
of the customer for you?
So if you're an indie consultant,
especially one who has like the prime
relationship with the customer, you are
basically your own engagement manager.
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: that is for sure.
the second place where we see the most
overlap is, project managers, and I've
always been of the opinion that the best
project managers are natural engagement
managers, and the best engagement
managers are also project managers.
Just get those two skills aligned to
the same person and magic happens.
CJ: Yeah.
I mean we, as we've just discussed,
right, there is a little bit of,
overlap there, just naturally,
because they're both managing.
Large swaths of the, of the project.
And so I do agree that, you best,
EMS are going to be good PMs, right.
Though I will say that I'm not sure
that I want my EM being a PM because
I think they're far too valuable
to be managing the nuances of a
project like a project manager is.
Duke: Hmm.
I'm gonna go ahead and
disagree with you on that.
CJ: Oh, yeah.
Duke: And I would recall back to
the episode we did with Pat Fuller,
CJ: Okay.
Duke: we're gonna put a link to
that in the description below.
Everybody take a shot.
, but Pat Fuller is, me, the pinnacle
of both sides in one person,
like exquisite project manager.
has everything laid out in Excel, nose
down to the day when all this stuff
has to get done by, where she's getting
the resources from, how much she's
spent on it, how much she has extra
for wiggle room, all that pm goodness.
But she also does it from an engagement
management perspective because she is
the face of this thing getting done.
She just understands the structure
of the work to get it done.
And, Pat's the kind of person where
the C-suite, someone from the C-suite
calls her up, cio, c o o, Hey Pat, take
care of this 15 million thing for us,
make it go faster.
The end.
And, uh,
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: you know what I mean?
And she's got, all of the, authority to
change the parameters of the project.
or the parameters for success.
She's has the project plan, she made it
herself, so she knows it implicitly and
she's got that confidence in charisma and
the cool under calm and the, the narrative
building and the hyper organization.
and, and she just talks about that
on top of all the other things, on
top of schedule, cost, and scope.
CJ: Absolutely true, and I totally agree
with you that Pat Fuller can , be my em n
pm any of the week twice on Sunday, there
are very few Pat Fullers in this world.
Duke: That I will give you.
CJ: and I think, unless you have the
skillset of a path Fuller, then I do
think that I want my, em more focused on
managing the engagement as a whole and
make sure that the success is communicated
versus, um, maybe managing some of
the nuances and, and ensuring that my
developers are building stories on time.
Duke: Hmm.
CJ: I want them holistically engaged
narrative as, as you mentioned,
like, you know, a couple minutes ago,
The narrative, I think is much more
important then the stories, , are, that
are getting built, , it's why we're
building the stories, how we're building
the stories, and what we're gonna
accomplish by building those stories.
Somebody's gotta spin their yarn, right?
And somebody's gotta build those decks
and have those meetings with management
to make sure that they all, come
away feeling, feeling warm and fuzzy.
And you can't do that, right if
you're always making sure that
everybody's managing to the date.
it's your job to when, when they
didn't manage the date or they're,
or they're, uh, you know, somebody
should be telling you, Hey, we're not
going to be able to meet the date.
Right?
And that's when you gotta go do the
em thing with the client, right?
Like, oh crap, all right, so
we're not gonna let me get it
out in front of this, right?
And so now you gotta send a narrative
on why you didn't, you're not
gonna hit the date, and how you're
going to correct for it and why it
should, you shouldn't be alarmed
and why it's not a big deal, right?
I want my em to be able to do that quickly
without having to deal with the nuance
of whether or not this is, , potentially
a misstate or maybe they're, you know,
folks are a little hypersensitive or,
worried about, you know what I mean?
Like worried about like whether or
not this is real or make belief.
Right.
I just, I want them working on
the narrative in case it is real.
Duke: I guess where it's like I, I
idealize 'em in the same body because as
soon as we discover that this thing is
gonna go off the rails, then go broker
the reconciliation with the customer and
not have this scenario where it's like,
okay, the PM now has to tell the EM.
That this is off the rails and
then the EM goes to the customer.
if those can both be in the same body and
they have such an overlap of skillset.
Anyway, sorry.
I
CJ: No, no, I mean,
Duke: to disagree, I guess, but
CJ: no, I'm, I'm with you on that too.
I, I mean, like, I get where
you're coming from on it, right.
And I think, I guess if it's a smaller
project, then it makes sense to have
both of those folks in the same body.
But I do think on the larger project, I
want my em separate, I want them managing
fires and, spinning narratives, you know,
throughout the entirety of the, of the
project that not necessarily focused on.
ensuring that the stories
get delivered on time.
Duke: Okay.
Well we got a few minutes, more time.
so I thought maybe what we would do
is talk about If we have listeners
or at the start of their Service
Now career and they say, oh, EMS for
me, what do you gotta keep in mind?
CJ: Huh?
Yeah.
Okay.
if you know you're at the, starting your
career and you think, man, I really want
to be an em, one of the first things
you need to do right, is to underst to
understand like that skillset, like we
talked about, that you need to bring to
the table when you are an em, that means
you gotta be really confident and, and
comfortable talking in front of people.
People who have a lot of power, typically
in a situation, Like, you gotta realize
that you're going to be the, the face.
Right of a deployment, talking to
the other face, of the folks who
are asking you to do the thing.
Typically that face is gonna have
a, degree of power in the situation.
So you have to, you know, be
confident in those spaces.
Like, that's one of the things, you know,
probably, maybe the, maybe the number
one thing from my, from a perspective,
Duke: I'd also wager that engagement
manager is not something that you
walk into, you have to have done
something of a similar scale.
CJ: Sales.
Duke: Yeah.
Yeah.
But you, you, I think you would've had
to have been in charge of some kind of
like multi-person objective, where it
You are the person who is going to, face
the fire if the thing fails and there's
20 other people working on it with you.
CJ: I can see
Duke: don't, I don't think you go
from school to engagement manager.
CJ: Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I, I agree.
I I think you do need some real world
experience and, doing some things right
before you can be an engagement manager.
Absolutely.
But I do think sales is one of the
places that I've seen successful
engagement managers come from, right?
Because it's sort of like
a similar skillset, right?
Like you want confidence,
you know, charisma.
You want to be able to tell the story.
Three, right?
You need to be organized.
You need to be, really, um, confident
in situations where you don't
necessarily have all the power, right?
And other people do,, and you gotta
be able to push too because you're
trying to close the deal, right?
Like when you're in sales situation,
you're trying to close the deal.
When you're in em, you're really trying
to get your client to buy your narrative.
Right.
And so that, so that they really
believe that everything's going,
and that, that's not to say you
should be tricking them, right.
But you know what I mean?
Like you're selling a narrative.
You want the client to buy into it, right?
And that's just like sales, in my opinion.
You want to close the deal.
You want to get the client
to, to buy the narrative.
So I, so I see, you've got
some, some successful year
years in sales under your belt.
I think a transition to em
is probably, not too hard.
Duke: And I'd say if you had informal
project management experience or
perhaps you have a military career
where you had command, right.
CJ: a goal.
Yeah.
Duke: That that would be a real,
CJ: Yep.
Duke: but more generally if it's many,
many people, except you get all the
blame if it all goes wrong, I think is
like, is the fingerprint for a good ya?
CJ: So if your husband to a family.
Duke: Well, you know what I'm saying?
Like, you know that expression like
if you wanna get something done,
give it to a busy person because
they just, there's certain people who
just figure out ways to get it done.
Figure out ways to success.
CJ: Right.
Duke: and you kind of gotta
be one of those people.
CJ: yeah.
Agree, right?
Like there's, all right, you gotta
be constantly pushing, right?
you can't be scared.
There's no room for fear,
when you're an em, right?
And it goes back to that, that
confidence and charisma, right?
Like you.
Duke: coolness under pressure
is just like, okay, I'm, yeah.
I'm getting yelled at.
They're super mad.
I can see that they're just, you
know, and they're yelling at me.
CJ: Right, right.
So, so, so it's like,
okay, so what do we do?
Right?
Like, what do we do?
All right, so the one thing we don't
do right is get mad and yell back.
Duke: Oh, for sure.
Yeah.
That would be, it's called that Plan Z.
CJ: Yeah, exactly.
Right.
But if you don't have the experience
in these situations, maybe that
is your first impulse, right.
Is to get mad and yell back and
that's not what you want to do.
Right.
So, yeah, I mean the, some accountability
and, and situations previously, I do
think is an important skill to have
when thinking about coming in em.
Duke: At least from my
perspective, and I've, been on
stuff that hasn't gone so well.
You know what I mean?
I can, I can admit that.
I think if you're not em and you
want to know how EMS do it, I would
say you gotta shut off that part.
That's gonna take it personal.
Right.
it's not personal.
They just have a lot of emotional
energy behind the outcome and.
Just let them go.
don't try and calm them down
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: and certainly by interrupting
them, I, I'd say like, listen,
intently is strategy number one.
Listen intently.
If they're in a point where
they're like yelling and very,
very frustrated and take notes.
Because if they're giving it to
you once, when they're angry,
like they won't appreciate asking
you to repeat themselves, right?
So just take notes as they're talking.
And make sure that they feel heard.
I think once they're, once they feel
heard, that's step one to getting them,
CJ: Man there, there's just.
Duke: amicable to to, to
how you're gonna steer it.
You know what I mean?
CJ: Yeah.
And the, the more we talk about
this, right, it just, it goes back
and I think we did a, an episode
or two on soft skills, right?
And it just really, underscores for
me, like important, these soft skills
are as you advance your career.
Right, because I don't think em
is like an inch level career,
But when you start to, right.
You know, but when you start
to look at these steps, right?
Something like independent consultant,
em and things of that nature
are ServiceNow architect, right?
these are spots where.
Those soft skills really do come
into play and people expect a little
bit more than just you being able to
recite the technical literature, right.
that you re remember, like, you know,
yeah, I can, can, can you write a glide
query, you know, with your eyes closed?
Sure.
But a lot of people can do that.
and the CEO that you're talking
to who doesn't really care, right?
They, they wanna know how,
how is what's in it for me?
how is the thing that you're about
to do that I'm asking you to do
that I'm about to pay you for?
Right.
Like, gonna make my life better and easier
and tell me in three minutes, And, and
so I, I do really think that those off
skills like the folks who have them and
the folks who don't write like that, that
schism really starts to show itself as
you start to, um, elevate your career.
Duke: I just love the fact that you said
soft skills too, because if there's ever a
role that was almost entirely soft skills.
CJ: Yeah,
Duke: You know, unless you take my advice
and say a good pm a good EM is also a
good pm, then you need the hard skills of,
CJ: a project management, right?
Yeah.
Duke: management, all the
artifacts and whatnot.
But man, but I have seen EMS that
aren't PMs and they're just all,
that person, that person everybody
loves to love, can't stay mad at 'em,
inspires confidence even though they're
not the ones turning the wrenches.
CJ: Yeah.
,
And, as these, um, projects, as the
spend, starts to, um, ratchet up, right?
Like, the job of that engagement
manager just gets more and more, I.
Right.
Because if you're spending 2, 3, 4,
5, 10 million on a, on a project, the
person who can spend that narrative
and keep everybody focused and calm and
confident in the project is worth Right.
Ament to that project.
Because the one thing that will
start to destabilize a project
is a lack of confidence in it.
Duke: And that always
starts somewhere, right?
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: it starts with maybe
a communication breakdown.
Like how come all of our devs are
always somewhere else in different time
zones and we can never talk to them,
CJ: Right.
Duke: figure out what went wrong on their
side, And that could be something where
I'm still happy for a little while until
it starts getting really frustrating.
CJ: Yeah, exactly And it could just
be one thing that takes it from
happy to frustrating too, right?
If the thing is big enough, and
you need somebody to come in and
you know, narrative that away.
or somebody to come in with the authority
to recognize, well, someone who could
come in and recognize whether or not
this is a situation where something needs
to be done or someone needs to listen,
that's step number one, Because there
are situations where your client is gonna
be upset, but this is just a listening
situation where they want to yell at
somebody and they really just want to
vent, their trouble with the project.
Right?
And you're gonna listen
to some of those things.
You're gonna hear those things and
you're gonna calm 'em down, right?
And you're gonna tell 'em everything's
gonna be fine and they're gonna be happy,
But then there are other situations
where you need to do something and
that them needs to be able to tell
the difference between the two.
is this a situation where we need to lose
a couple of points of profit in order to
move development back on shore because
this client's gonna walk otherwise, right?
Your em needs to know, that person is
going to be the person who, who, reports
back internally and says, Hey, right?
we need to lose a couple points right here
and we need to bring, we need to bring
development back internally and need our
all stars on this thing for two weeks.
and that, and again, right,
that's that trust thing that
we talked about earlier, right?
Like the internals are going to, uh,
internal folks are going to trust this
person and give them that without a,
without a, uh, without blinking, right?
Because they know that this,
that's the skillset that they hire.
Duke: All right.
Wow.
CJ: I mean, that got good at the end.
Duke: Yeah.
Behind the camera people
every behind the microphone.
Corey and I were like, how
are we gonna fill 30 minutes
on, on engagement managers?
And here we are at like,
uh, 40 minutes of record.
So,
CJ: Well, duke, episode 82,
and we still don't have it.
Still don't have a outro.
Duke: ah, someday.
All right.
Thanks folks.
We'll see you on the next one.