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Hosts Spencer Horn and Christian Napier discuss a better way to build and strengthen teams in any organization.
00:12 - 00:23
Christian Napier: Well, hello everyone and welcome to another episode of teamwork a better way. I'm Christian Napier joined by my amazingly autumn-ly colored dressed co-host Spencer Horne. Spencer, how you doing?
00:24 - 00:37
Spencer Horn: I am feeling very autumn today. I wanted to, you know, I missed some of the leaves when I was traveling on the road around the world and I missed our Utah fall peak season. So I'm wanting to relive that. Celebrating it now. And speaking
00:37 - 01:12
Christian Napier: of celebrating, I mean, today here in the United States is Veterans Day. It's the 11th of November. And So let's give a special shout out to all of our veterans. My brother, we are more seasoned. So thank you to all of the veterans and active military for your service. I mean that sincerely today. We really appreciate it. Well, Spencer, we've got an amazing guest. We were talking with him before we started recording this podcast. And I'm like, I don't, I want to just continue that conversation. It was fascinating, but I want to give you an opportunity
01:12 - 01:19
Christian Napier: to, to, do him justice and introduce him. So why don't you go ahead and introduce our amazing guest we have today?
01:19 - 01:52
Spencer Horn: Yes, we have Doug Richens today with us, who's the founder of Brace Space Experts. And I'm so excited to to share and read a little bit of his bio I had to, I mean, it's like 20 pages, Christian. So I'm going to read a little bit of it, not all of it. So, but you just, you gotta get to know who we have. And we have people that are listening around the world, but he's a global thought leader and speaker. He has really been, he he's respected in the executive leadership and women's advancement and neuroscience of
01:52 - 02:46
Spencer Horn: wellness areas. He specializes in creating compassionate, inclusive workplaces with over 30 years experience advising leaders across industries and continents, Doug has impacted millions through his consulting work, including with humanitarian organizations, health care systems, and global corporations. His company, Grayspace Experts, focuses on modern practices that drive lasting social reform and elevate organizational culture. In his consulting world and experience, he's really led to significant gains in leadership effectiveness and inclusion, with clients reporting up to 70% improvement in these areas Christian and His custom programs address the modern demands of leadership with practical research-based strategies including Ruggedization which I'm
02:46 - 03:27
Spencer Horn: so excited to ask him about, which equips leaders and teams to cultivate resilience and adaptability, helping them thrive in uncertain and challenging environments. And then he has reinventing gain, which we'll need to learn a little bit more about as well, which focuses on the rapid and strategic adoption of AI technologies for meaningful long-term impact and exploring how AI can unlock new markets, enhance team skills, and act as a force multiplier for lasting gains. I know Christian, your ears perk up on that 1. And then a couple more things, skip, skip. Global service and diversity initiatives as
03:27 - 04:10
Spencer Horn: the director of special topics for the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That's where Doug led initiatives focused on mental health, suicide prevention, disability, diversity and inclusion, abuse, women's rights and women's equality and anti-racism. His programs reached millions worldwide, achieving measurable success in mental wellness, suicide prevention while transforming inclusionary practices in numerous communities. And his work has been recognized by the World Health organization and adopted by governments and organizations internationally. You know, you just, he talked to me, he's just a regular guy. But then, you know, I still got another 20 pages to go here.
04:10 - 04:54
Spencer Horn: Hold on. Doug works, he also, his work extends to prison rehabilitation and policy advisory roles. But going down to his experience in delivery, I know he does all kinds of podcasts and public presentations. He's done over 3, 000 presentations to groups worldwide, captivating audiences with his unique blend of candor, humor, and profound insights. He's known for weaving research and real-world experiences into each talk, which makes things so much more interesting and entertaining. He tackles complex topics and things like resilience, gender equality, modern masculinity, which we've been hearing a lot about in this last election, the impact
04:54 - 05:30
Spencer Horn: of AI, and sensitive subjects like sexual intimacy and compulsive sexual challenges. And he's able to handle those in a way that really engage audiences and bring them in and make them safe to discuss that. Okay, 1 more paragraph. Be patient. You got to, you know, this is important here. His ability to address delicate issues with approachability and depth have made him a sought after speaker, which leaves a lasting impression, inspiring meaningful change. He's got all kinds of honors in education. He's got, gosh, he's got awards from Stanford in compassion and leadership, and the exemplary service in
05:30 - 06:08
Spencer Horn: suicide prevention by Utah's governor. He holds degrees in history, business, and neuroscience of behavioral change and compassion, along with being a master certified coach. See why I had to read a lot of this, Christian? I mean, I'm excited to hear that, but he's got over 10 professional certifications that I'm sure he'll share. But most importantly, put all that aside, the thing that really needs to be highlighted here that he and his wife, Jeanine, have 6 children and they are a beautiful family that enjoy outside adventures together. Doug, welcome to the show. Let me get you up
06:08 - 06:16
Spencer Horn: here and I should have had you up. Oh, there you are. Come on over a little bit here before we... There you go. There it is.
06:17 - 06:18
Doug Richens: There, get center in there.
06:18 - 06:41
Spencer Horn: There we go. Welcome to the show. So, so excited, you know, and thank you for letting me share that. I know that was a lot, but I really want our leaders to learn about you so that they can know the kinds of questions to ask. But can you just start us off by, how did you get into this career? What was the motivation and the impetus for you to start on
06:41 - 07:14
Doug Richens: this work? You know, it came out of, I started in the classroom years and years ago and just loved it and very quickly became aware of students who were struggling. And when I went up line in my organization looking for a mentor, looking for information, how do I help these students that are struggling? I couldn't find it. And I went all the way to the top. And when I couldn't find it, I said, great, let's do it. So that's where I began.
07:17 - 07:52
Spencer Horn: Well, that's fantastic. We've talked a few things in the highlight of the presentation of your experience and skills and our title today is really, I think, has got a lot of people interested. We already got comments from Kevin Martin. We'll put that up in a second. But ruthless compassion, leadership teams that are new, modern, and ready. I think including both Christian and I, we're interested in what do you mean by ruthless compassion? Could you share a little bit about that?
07:53 - 08:35
Doug Richens: Sure. Yeah. And you know, it's a bit of a hook, right? We're really just talking about the deep neuroscience of compassion here. But it is important to put, I think, the word ruthless out in front. It's not about being harsh. It's not about being tough at all. It's about clarity and accountability in a way that works with how the brain is really wired. It's a clever intentional way to turn these pumps on in others and in ourself. And it works. It creates deep functionality in people. It motivates, inspires them to not just connect, but to really
08:36 - 09:02
Doug Richens: perform, really be creative and be what you'd hope they'd be in a team or in a workplace or at home or whatever. So It's a little play on pushing people to think about compassion in a different way. Because we're not talking about just that compassion of taking a casserole down the streets to a neighbor. This is much more than that.
09:03 - 09:38
Spencer Horn: So. Yeah, I mean, when it comes to teams, I mean, how does that compassion work and benefit the teams? And you say it's based on neuroscience and how the brain works. You know, I think If I'm looking at that, you say it's kind of click bait to get people interested, right? Ruthless makes people's brains pick up because aren't we designed to sniff out threats or dangers first rather than the compassion, which is the upside, which is the positive, which are the good things that we wanna have, because I mean, you're the neuroscience expert here.
09:39 - 10:21
Doug Richens: Well, yeah, every bit of information that we receive goes through a series of filters. The prime directive filters are always first. Are we safe? Does this activity lead me towards connection? If we have children, are they safe? Does it lead them towards connection and family and reproduction and all those kinds of things? Those prime directives of the brain are always on. What we're living in is a time when there's just a hypersensitivity to the fear, to the anxiety pumps. Now those are real, those are hardwired as well. Those are built for acute moments of when we
10:21 - 11:08
Doug Richens: need the fight or flight. But we have people just living with those pumps on constantly. Chronic stress, chronic anxiety. When in fact, we are a thousand times more wired and more driven by the compassion cycles inside of our brain and body. It's the big engine underneath everything. Anxiety gets the headlines in today's busy world, but the deep pumps, the deep engine inside of all of us is actually tied to the compassion processes. So when we understand those, when we know how to activate those in ourselves and with others, we are empowered in teams and families and
11:08 - 11:28
Doug Richens: whatever we're doing and to teach it is a blast. People just sit back here in the clinic and they just pull back on those couches and they're just astonished that they've missed it for so long. And it consequently, it gives them a way to move forward and be healthier and happier. So there's a lot in that. But it's fun.
11:29 - 12:13
Christian Napier: Well, I want to go on the engine analogy, if that's okay with this compassion thing. So if we think of a standard internal combustion engine in a vehicle and we see the compassion being that engine that really drives us, anxiety, does it equate to things gumming up the works in that engine? And also, I guess, kind of taking the analogy a little bit further, Engines perform well when they're routinely maintained and cared for and they're tuned up. And so I'm curious what you're seeing in the workplace today and in society in general today where things are
12:13 - 12:29
Christian Napier: kind of getting gummed up or how we are neglecting to service this compassionate engine and then maybe taking it to the next step, what's your approach been to providing that service and care so that that engine is firing in all cylinders?
12:33 - 13:16
Doug Richens: The compassion process is that now, I'm a front end user of this to be very clear. I'm passionate about it. I study it. But I am absolutely a front end user. I'm not the core researchers at Stanford doing the deep study work. I know them. I just admire them. When we are looking at the benefits to brain and body through a compassion response, It happens in 3 places. If we extend our compassion, our kindness, in the right way, we get this neurological, biological hit of chemicals. It moves our thinking out of the prefrontal cortex and actually
13:16 - 14:00
Doug Richens: back to more of the medial part of the brain. And in that process, it triggers calm, connection, creativity, courage, everything, all these healthy attributes and conditions that give us the ability to perform and to be who we want to be. When kindness is given to us, we have this part of us that can receive it. Now we're experts at deflecting it, compliments, kindness, we dismiss it, we push it away, but when we really receive those acts of kindness, bam, we get that same neurological hit. And then the third place is when we just observe it from
14:00 - 14:43
Doug Richens: the sidelines and we have eyes to see it. So what we're talking about here, it's kind of like when you watch those Hallmark movies and you get that really beautiful warm feeling or whatever, right? When we see and observe a compassion exchange between others, we can get that same exact hit in our life. So as you understand it and choose to walk through your day turning that on making meaning of your life through this this activation through this lens oh my gosh Health abounds, clarity abounds, energy comes through, stress and anxiety decrease, it's remarkable. All those
14:43 - 15:14
Doug Richens: other factors, the anxiety pumps, yeah, they gum up the works, They have a place, right? There are moments when we need adrenaline and we need to be away from danger and our radar needs to be on and all of those things. But the body doesn't perform well under those conditions longterm. And it breaks down teams. It breaks down leadership. It breaks down marriages, relationships, parenting, all of it.
15:25 - 15:28
Spencer Horn: So I warned you that would happen.
15:28 - 15:29
Doug Richens: Yeah, that's good.
15:31 - 16:04
Spencer Horn: This is great. I mean, I want to learn so much more about this and how leaders can develop it, those people that are sitting on the couch back there. You know, I just, I was kind of late getting this show all scheduled and I'm so, you know, I apologize for that. But I was spending the last 3 days with a team, Doug, that I've been working with. This is my third year. And I see so many teams out there that are the pumps that you're talking about of anxiety and frustration. And those are the ones that
16:04 - 16:35
Spencer Horn: are getting most of the attention and most of the exercise right now. And this is maybe different language than we're using here. But I want to ask you as an expert if This is in a similar vein. I had them do some exercise. I talked about getting uncomfortable and facing some of those things that are holding them back as leaders. And we did some exercise where they potentially physically could hurt themselves. And we talk about this idea of fear and I say, you know, what's the opposite of fear? And they, you know, they'll say courage and
16:35 - 17:06
Spencer Horn: I say no, it's it's love because if you really have this feeling of love and it just And I and I told a story that demonstrates that that I heard from Hiram Smith years and years ago about how, what motivates us to do things that otherwise we would be completely fearful to do. It's not that we're not fearful, but it's that love and compassion, if you will, for those that we love that causes us to take action in a way that can help other people. Would you say that there's a correlation there in how leaders lead
17:06 - 17:10
Spencer Horn: and can develop compassion to get through all the challenges that the organizations are facing. Oh,
17:10 - 17:26
Doug Richens: absolutely. And it's how you get to that conversation. You know, the difference between classical music and jazz music is really how you get to the note and how you leave the note, how you string those notes. Oh, now
17:26 - 17:26
Christian Napier: he's talking
17:26 - 17:29
Spencer Horn: your language. Keep going.
17:29 - 17:50
Doug Richens: Okay. And so what we're, what we're training here is how to have that same conversation about fear and how to train people to respond and interact with 1 another so that we're turning these compassion pumps on. So, Christian, let me pick on you for a minute. Let me run you through something. You ready?
17:50 - 17:54
Christian Napier: I'm well, I'm sure. Yeah, let's do it. I'm game.
17:54 - 18:14
Doug Richens: Okay, so Christian, you and I go way back. But it's been a while since we haven't seen each other and we run into each other at a restaurant. Okay. And we're gonna role play this for just a moment, okay? So you're gonna come up to me and you're gonna greet me and we'll just talk through what that little exchange would be, okay? Go ahead.
18:14 - 18:19
Christian Napier: Wow, Doug, it's awesome to see you, man. It's been ages. How you been doing?
18:19 - 18:23
Doug Richens: You know, we're struggling, my friend. We
18:23 - 18:25
Christian Napier: really are. I am really sorry to
18:27 - 18:28
Doug Richens: hear that
18:30 - 18:31
Christian Napier: what's going on
18:32 - 18:35
Doug Richens: you know my sweet daughter Hannah oh Gosh Hannah what she she lost the child And we're hurting
18:36 - 18:40
Christian Napier: I Am so sorry to hear that I can't imagine
18:40 - 18:41
Doug Richens: okay.
18:41 - 18:42
Christian Napier: Let's stop right there, okay?
18:44 - 19:31
Doug Richens: Christian when you say you're sorry to me, I know what you mean, but you have obligated me to comfort you. Do You see it? Yeah. Doug, I'm so sorry you're going through that. I then have to say, no, no, we're good. Hannah's great. We're going to get through this. Okay. This is the way we've been trained, the way we've been brought up. This is our natural reflex. But what we're doing is we're turning on, we're shifting the responsibility to the other to then comfort us and we're diminishing their ability to turn on the pumps of compassion.
19:31 - 20:11
Doug Richens: So if we switch this conversation, just a smidge, and I come up to you and I say, you know, my sweet Hannah, she's going through some difficulty. And you're able to say, you know what? Doug, I don't know any family more capable of getting through this than you guys. You'd be able to say, I remember watching Hannah play softball. She is tough as nails. She's built for hard things. She's going to be great. Your family is going to get through this man, and I'm here to help. In that shift, instead of me obligated to to go
20:11 - 20:51
Doug Richens: deeper into my sorrow and to comfort you, instead, you've moved my thinking back to something that matters more, a deeper truth. And I feel more connection to you. I feel more calm. I feel empowered. I feel courage. And I can get, you can take this to a place with such intimacy and sincerity, where you can create a whole flood of chemical change in my body in that moment. That's turning on the compassion pumps. And it's not about in the business setting. It's not about driving into someone's personal life.
20:51 - 20:52
Spencer Horn: I think a lot
20:52 - 20:52
Doug Richens: of people are
20:52 - 20:54
Spencer Horn: afraid of that, don't you?
20:54 - 21:37
Doug Richens: Right. Yeah, we have all kinds of boundaries and appropriateness that need to be in place and they are in place in our world. But it is about driving to authenticity, past the counterfeit, past the false, past the shallow, and saying things in a way that they're deeply empowered and we're turning on that compassion pump and then it just flows all right then it then it just it just creativity solutions fall out of this Because if you tell me in that little scenario, you know, I don't know of any family more capable of getting through hard things
21:37 - 21:53
Doug Richens: than you guys. And I say, what do you mean? Tell me more. What do you see that I'm not seeing? Solutions, ideas, creativity is just going to fall out of that.
21:54 - 22:04
Spencer Horn: You switch from that victim mentality to, hey, there's somebody else believes in me. And So what am I missing? What do I need to? What do I need?
22:04 - 22:45
Doug Richens: And if it's if this if this re-encounter Spencer standing there, let's say Spencer, I don't even know each other. He's just observing this. And all of a sudden, he wants to call his wife and say, I love you, hon. Like he's he's got a swell of something different and it's contagious and it goes downstream. Now, does it have to happen in crisis or big dramatic experiences? No. But when you're talking about fear inside of a team, there's ways to get to that note, get to that topic that creates encouragement and power and compassion. And it's beautiful.
22:45 - 22:49
Doug Richens: Compassion inquiry is part of the skill set that we're teaching there.
22:58 - 23:04
Spencer Horn: I think that's very powerful. And Christian, I know you have some thoughts because I felt it too. I know you did.
23:05 - 23:40
Christian Napier: I do have thoughts. Well, actually questions, for, for that scenario to work, you actually have to know that person, right? So, so, you know, in the role play, it was a little challenging because we, you know, you set the stage, say, we've known each other for a long time, but I have no idea who Hannah is or anything like that, right? So, so you have to understand the people well enough to be able to say with authenticity what you suggested saying, I don't know any family. If there's any family, there's no other family more capable of
23:40 - 23:55
Christian Napier: dealing with this kind of hardship than your family, right? Those can't just be words. You got to know them well enough to say that with some confidence and conviction. Otherwise, if it's not authentic, honestly,
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Spencer Horn: I would be
23:55 - 24:35
Christian Napier: upset. Well, who are you to tell me about my strength and my family? You don't know anything about me, right? So the prerequisite for that is you actually have to have a relationship with a person to be able to make that kind of statement and make it feel authentic, because it is authentic, it's coming from an authentic place. And so 1 of the questions I've got for you is, is what do you do in a situation where you don't have that kind of relationship, where you can make that kind of a, of a value judgment or,
24:36 - 24:49
Christian Napier: you know, if you don't have that, that, that level of depth of knowledge with an individual, how can you still demonstrate compassion, absent the absent that really intimate knowledge and relationship.
24:52 - 25:37
Doug Richens: It is a lifestyle. In fact, when we talk about mental emotional wellness, when someone can drive out of a dark place and reach some a season of stability the brain changes shape the brain comes back and when we then add to their life a different lifestyle a different way of thinking and processing. They stay out of darkness and depression and chronic anxiety, those kind of things. When it's your lifestyle to see needs and care, right? If you don't know me as well and you don't know Hannah you would inquire you would you would ask the questions
25:37 - 26:25
Doug Richens: right it's when I you know that tragedy that happens in the neighbor's home down the street and we all wonder what to do you show up You walk through the door and you just ask what happened, how, and you listen. And so in the skill set, you're right, You can't be disingenuous, but you can always be deeply curious and authentic in that curiosity. And that at the same time, I know you care, you're listening. How old is Hannah? Is her husband supportive? How are you guys doing financially? Is she okay? Do we need like, is there
26:25 - 26:51
Doug Richens: a place I can give some money? Like, you can just find that deep place of inquiry and questions. In the workplace, someone's underperforming in a team. They're just off. And we don't want to just throw the HR card at them. We want to be the type of leader that listens and knows their world and can inspire and motivate them to move forward. Doug,
26:51 - 27:13
Spencer Horn: do you think in that circumstance, because I was just dealing with that with this group this weekend, and 1 of the things we do is we pull them aside, hey, I noticed that you're struggling today. I noticed that your performance is down a little bit. Can we talk about this? I'd love to, I'd love to know what's, what's going on. Cause it doesn't seem like you, I mean, what's the right way to do that.
27:14 - 28:04
Doug Richens: So if you're empathetic, You're going to fuel connection, which you just described. You want to fuel action, and that's compassion. Mark, you're off. You clearly are, brother. You're struggling. I'm not seeing what I've seen out of you in the past. Tell me what's going on. I've got 20 minutes. I'm not even going to talk. Just just tell me. Now it doesn't have to be anything too personal. Just let me listen for a minute. Now what comes out of that could be, look, I'm fine. I'm just got some personal stuff, you know. Okay. We can drive them
28:04 - 28:41
Doug Richens: into 2 places. 1 is to rewild their life, to push them back to their preloaded self. Mark, who were you before we crushed you up and turned you into this broken machine? Tell me about your early you. Mark, what was the part of your career that was the spark of all of this? What part of your work do you love the most that's easy for you? And when we drive back to someone's preloaded original self, oh, massive release of compassion, kindness, connection, and we're bringing them up out of the fog. The other place we can drive
28:41 - 29:22
Doug Richens: is the ruggedization. The ruggedization is not a macho, get tough kind of a model, but it is about building capacity. Just say, Mark, I want to help you be new, modern, and ready for everything we're going to ask you to do in 3 months. What's next for you? What do you need to be renewed, modern, and ready? Or some path into performance improvement, capability? Does that make sense, Spencer?
29:23 - 30:05
Spencer Horn: Doug, it does. And so I have an observation. I speak with lots of CEOs and I know you do too. 1 of the things that I see that fights against this is this need for efficiency. They're so focused on efficiency that they're not being effective. And if you're listening to this and you're noticing Doug is slowing down. He's taking time. I have talked over and over again about my mentor, Kelvin Kullemore, and I had such a great relationship. And he was able to have difficult conversations with me, Doug. I mean, he challenged me, said, listen, if
30:05 - 30:32
Spencer Horn: you're not able to make some changes that I need you to make, I'm going to have to let you go. But I knew that he came from love and he cared about me. So I didn't want to let him down. And I was able to fight through that and have great success. And I have such admiration for him. But he was a leader that not only was focused on being productive and efficient, but he connected with people. And so how do you get people who are just so, hey, we've got to get this done. We've got
30:32 - 30:43
Spencer Horn: to pay the bills. We've got to make the payroll. And they're like, I don't have 20 minutes to sit down and have a conversation about your feelings and help them understand why that is actually productive.
30:45 - 31:33
Doug Richens: So, you know, the principles of the reinvention officer lifestyle and the role of the reinvention or innovation officer is really essential here, because that's where besides the one-on-one moment you can look organizationally at where efficiencies can be optimized, where waste is, where those windows are in that arc where we can spin off and we can really create new thinking. New is regenerative in the right way. And to bring a team forward into a space of reinvention is as good as a rest. And so there are lots of ways to create the optimization. I'm just inviting people
31:33 - 31:39
Doug Richens: to do it in a way that brings people along without ramping up the anxiety, the fear, the loss, the threat models.
31:43 - 32:04
Spencer Horn: I want you to share the fact that it's not only that, but now people are engaged and they're wanting to give you their discretionary effort just because of the trust and the relationship and all those things that you're talking about, they're fighting for you instead of just for their lives, so they're drowning and they're not bringing their best selves to the work. Isn't that what we're talking about?
32:04 - 32:41
Doug Richens: It is. And if you're, if you pick a corner of the, of the organization, you're going to do some reinvention work, some redesign of process or, or procedures, whatever that looks like. Your people have to get it. They have to want it and they have to be capable of it. And as a leader, if I can't get them to get it, want it, and be capable of it, Through my model of leadership, I need a different model of leadership because the vision has to permeate the sense of this is my job. I want it to be
32:41 - 33:10
Doug Richens: successful and you've given me the capacity to do it. Sometimes that capacity is just what we all received from other mentors, right? A belief in ourselves. Sometimes it's a skillset. All of these things factor into the improvement, the reinvention of an organization, just in a way that works with how brains really work. That's what we're really after. Stop fighting the biology of your people.
33:12 - 33:12
Spencer Horn: Like that.
33:13 - 33:46
Christian Napier: All right, so I want to I want to come back to the these terms that I am not super familiar with. I understand based on the conversation that the first thing that you've got to do is you have to gain understanding, right? If someone's approaching you with a challenge. And so that inquisitiveness, that curiosity, that's really key there. And then you said, okay, you can go down a couple of paths, this rewilding path, this ruggedization.
33:47 - 33:47
Doug Richens: I wonder
33:47 - 33:47
Christian Napier: if you
33:47 - 33:48
Doug Richens: can just dive a little deeper
33:48 - 33:54
Christian Napier: into these concepts of your education and rewilding is a little very interesting words to me. I know I've had a blast with these words. I love
33:54 - 33:58
Doug Richens: watching business leaders so seasoned and experienced go. What my world is he talking?
34:01 - 34:03
Spencer Horn: Aren't you writing a book about rewilding?
34:03 - 34:48
Doug Richens: Yes, yeah. Yeah, it's been, I don't know, it's turned into like 5 books, you know how that goes. The rewilding. In land conservation, big land conservation, like when Doug and Chris Tompkins took their fortune, went down to southern Chile and bought up the Patagonia. And then they had to prepare that land to donate it back to Chile and Argentina to be the first national parks in South America. 1 of the phases of preparing that land and the reclamation is called rewilding. This is where they had to go and reintroduce the habitat, the animals. They flew to
34:48 - 35:27
Doug Richens: Canada, trapped mountain lions and brought them down, renamed them Puma and released them into the Patagonia. They did fish, flora, fauna. They had to rewild the habitat back to its original state. I think it's a beautiful metaphor for that part of us of getting back to some of those things that we've had crushed out of us. I know it gets a little ethereal and it gets a little woo-woo when people are like who's your inner self and and what's my purpose and all that right but in a functional way there is something about saying I'm good
35:27 - 36:12
Doug Richens: at these things I loved this when I was getting into this career what happened to that and that's a rewilding The ruggedization comes out of sports science, a super uber athlete named Ross Edgeley, who swam around the Isle of Great Britain in a consecutive 157 days. I mean, the guy's a beast. The stoic sports science models that he's teaching, there's this word that just shows up every once in a while. It's not even a point of emphasis for Ross. But this term shows up of ruggedization. Ruggedization is where you take a laptop and you militarize it
36:12 - 36:57
Doug Richens: for a combat zone and you put padding and protection so it'll, it can deal with the toughness of the environment. There are parts of us in order to perform we need some ruggedization. I don't want to put on that body armor on every part of my life. For heavens, no way. But selectively, inside of a team, inside of a project, okay, that's tough for me. I got to, I need to go through some of these skills, these conversations and this, these routines, these practical, daily practices that give me the ability to be a little bit more
36:57 - 37:01
Doug Richens: rugged. So that's kind of what we're talking about in there. There. And you
37:15 - 37:15
Spencer Horn: go on.
37:16 - 37:47
Doug Richens: I love it. I was just gonna say that, you know, yeah, when teams experience this, it just gives new language to create productivity. We have a lot of younger people in the workforce, like as always, right? And they haven't been through what we've all been through. And it's a pathway for them to learn some of those vital lessons and make them the kind of leaders we need.
37:48 - 38:15
Spencer Horn: I see, Doug, I see so many young leaders that, you know, they get a promotion, they get hired, and they feel like they have to have all the answers. And it actually creates a lot of anxiety because they feel, well, I have to prove that I am now in this position and earn the trust of all my team and everybody else. And sometimes the people on the team are older and have more experience than them. And it just, it creates this really interesting dynamic that is not always productive. But having the confidence to just say, you
38:15 - 38:50
Spencer Horn: know, I don't know everything and to be able to engage and learn as we go. You know, we talk about sometimes in our faith about teaching our kids, I can do hard things, right? I mean, that's kind of what you're talking about with this ruggedization is in the workplace, I like to do this in giving these people that are in your organization tasks that might be slightly beyond their capability. Because if it's too far beyond their capability, they can shut down and withdraw. But if it's slightly beyond, they are challenged in a way that causes them
38:50 - 39:20
Spencer Horn: to learn, to grow and develop this confidence that, hey, cause if you're doing the same thing over and over again, you're not being challenged. And there's a saying that goes, the greater the battle, the greater the victory. When we have these battles, and sometimes, you know, we don't wanna have huge battles that we feel like we're completely out of control, but if we have battles that we feel like, hey, this is uncomfortable, but I think I can do it, then that gives you basically a case study on your life that, hey, I can survive something that's
39:20 - 39:22
Spencer Horn: uncomfortable. Is that what we're talking about here?
39:23 - 40:10
Doug Richens: Yes. And it doesn't have to interrupt the flow of work. It can be seamless insight. It's an integrated learning process to raise the capacity of the team, to pull the team aside for just a moment and say, let's talk about the word gain. How do we want to perceive what gain is for us. Return on investment, profitability, yes. What does gain mean for us individually? I grew in capacity. I grew in ruggedization. I feel more authentic to who I am, whatever that is. We have this emerging technology that is just transforming the workplace.
40:11 - 40:15
Spencer Horn: Yeah, I was going to ask you about that. So go with that. I mean, how is AI
40:21 - 40:23
Doug Richens: helping team capacity.
40:24 - 40:39
Spencer Horn: It's a godsend. Hold on. We got it. We got a comment here from Kevin. He's he he said earlier he was talking about. He's so excited to you know, have a discussion about authentic leaders and becoming more authentic. And he says, he says a feeling that he has a little bit like Sisyphus. You know who Sisyphus is?
40:39 - 40:42
Doug Richens: Yes, that's statues right there.
40:42 - 40:43
Spencer Horn: Look at that.
40:43 - 40:46
Doug Richens: Only Sisyphus has a partner because we never do it alone.
40:47 - 40:59
Spencer Horn: Wow. I don't know if you saw that, Kevin, when you were watching this, but thanks for your comments. What do you think about this? It creates courage to take calculated risks to be a better leader every day.
41:00 - 41:41
Doug Richens: Absolutely. It does. Right. And in the gaps, what the integration of AI technologies can do is it can create greater efficiency. I remember working for my dad years and years and years ago, he had a small all state agency, I was a teenager, and a fax machine showed up in his office. And the idea of the fax machine is he could do all of these things and he'd have more free time. And it didn't make him didn't give him any more free time, because he didn't use the tool the way it could be used. It was
41:41 - 42:22
Doug Richens: a force multiplier, but he just kept driving up and up and up, and then email, and then on and on and on. The AI experience and the integration of that inside of our workplace, yes, it can create greater efficiency, greater clarity in our communications. It can bring teams together with fewer interruptions, right? What do we do with those moments that this technology gives us back? Do we continue to hound and pound on ourselves to do more, to be more sick, fat, nearly dead, whatever you want to call it? Or do we allow that this season of
42:22 - 43:11
Doug Richens: integration and all of this advancement, this extra time to be part of what we use for the ruggedization of ourselves to rethink a couple of key principles as leaders, as technicians, or workers in the team to be better. How do we share? This is an interesting thing within a team. Are teams communicating about how they're using AI efficiently. If there's any hedging on the part of someone to share a better way to do something through AI technology within a team within an organization, if you're holding that back you're living in fear. Your stress is up. And
43:11 - 43:37
Doug Richens: so the model is we're gonna all rise together. Let's, Hey, look at this thing. I'm able to do it this way. I built this bot. I have this new agent. I strung together 7 agents to do this task for me. It's brilliant. Here you go. It'll help you. That kindness changes the team. And Then when we have to talk about hard things, we're on the same page, we know each other, and we can be more creative.
43:39 - 44:12
Christian Napier: Well, I love it. AI is definitely in my wheelhouse. Yeah. And my responsibilities with the state of Utah. And I think the point that you make is a very, very good 1, which is the sharing of knowledge is paramount here on how we use these things. Also, having to balance its capabilities with regulatory and legal and ethical considerations, right? Because
44:12 - 44:12
Doug Richens: you have
44:12 - 44:54
Christian Napier: to be careful about how we use these tools. They can hallucinate. They can not always do things the way we think they should do them because they are probabilistic and they're not deterministic in nature. But I think that these are like new kinds of musical instruments that we need to learn how to play and and we could go down a rabbit hole of you know talking about AI and things like that but when it comes to these you know the question of well what are we doing in the time that AI is saving us? Love that.
44:54 - 45:37
Christian Napier: We, it really is a good question because, you know, from, from an executive position in times of uncertainty, we're thinking we can do more with less people. So that our people are just as busy as they've always been, they're just doing more stuff using new tools. And so they don't have any extra time to do this ruggedization or these kind of things because we're just piling more on them because we are going to reduce force, and we're not going to give them the time. And so I am really curious, but it's to Spencer's point, which is
45:37 - 46:28
Christian Napier: we're doing it in the name of efficiency and ROI and so on and so forth. And I am curious from your perspective how developing this ruthless compassion and these skills, irrespective of AI, you know, how those skills end up being reflected in the performance of an organization. You know, the work that you've done with so many organizations, what are the results that CEOs are seeing when they're, when they are giving their people the the skills, you know, to reinvent, to innovate, to ruggedize, to rewild. What are the real world impacts, the positive impacts on the organizations?
46:28 - 46:31
Christian Napier: What results are you seeing there with your clients?
46:32 - 47:13
Doug Richens: I think the efficiency piece comes because of the high level of trust and rapport and loyalty that creates within the organization. So that with every pivot that is needed within the organization and that C-suite is making these essential decisions, there is a confidence downstream to go with it from the get-go, and there's no pushback, there's no opposition. Then as we create alliances with other industry, with other companies, with other leaders. It's a pathway in. A few years ago, I was in the country of Rwanda and I was helping with a large humanitarian project. We were building
47:13 - 47:51
Doug Richens: halfway integration centers outside of every 1 of the Rwandan prisons. The Rwandan prison system is run by the military. So I go to this lunch with the head of the Rwandan military and I show up with my vehicle and my little security guys, right? And I walk into the restaurant and I sit there. The head of the Rwandan military, he rolls in with 8 vehicles, a tank, like this armored car, like this whole entourage, and walks into the room and sits down to have a meal with me. He's been through a genocide. He runs a military
47:52 - 48:02
Doug Richens: for a country. And here I show up saying, I want to make the people leaving your prisons happier. It's like, right? I got
48:02 - 48:03
Spencer Horn: it. Worked to me.
48:03 - 48:40
Doug Richens: I needed a language to get through to him. So the very first thing I said is I want to look inside that cool armored car out there, man. I want to look at that big gun on top. What the heck is that? I had to move into what he loved for a moment. Then I had to come back to questions about his people and the small village he was from. And show me that on the map, and how many genocide perpetrators have been returned to your village in the last year? How are they doing? Like I
48:40 - 49:12
Doug Richens: had to drive and turn on these pumps and move him out of military up here, big honcho mindset into 1 dad sitting in front of another dad. And over the course of that meal, we connected to the point where he said, great, here's my lieutenant. Anything you need, You got it. Now we were bringing in large financial resources to do the construction, but they had to take on the ownership of the project.
49:15 - 49:19
Spencer Horn: And see the value of that coming from that other mindset that you're talking about.
49:20 - 49:54
Doug Richens: Absolutely right. So whether it's what I was doing in that scenario, or if it's a, it's a contract with another provider to say, I love your offering, I need to make sure I know you. I need to make sure this product meets the deepest needs of my people. And Spencer, maybe it is a little bit of a slowing down, a delay in route for a moment or 2, but then the long-term gains because intuitively we have a better sense of who we're doing business with and we make better decisions.
49:54 - 50:28
Spencer Horn: I always believe and I and so many mistakes are made when we think we're being productive and going fast and we end up spending twice as long anyway that if we would have just slowed down, we would not have had to deal with. We're, gosh, we have so much yet to talk about. Could you, I mean, I wanted to get into this whole discussion of masculinity and your perspective of that today, you kind of actually gave an example of a great way to just be compassionate and yet introduce it and play at the level of that
50:28 - 50:53
Spencer Horn: masculine. That was very fascinating to me and I'd love to dive into that a little further. I don't know if we have time yet before we leave. I want you to be able to just share some practical steps that leaders can implement to integrate compassionate leadership and ruthless compassion to their teams. I want to make sure we have time to do that before we run out. Christian, what do you think?
50:54 - 51:08
Christian Napier: Yeah, absolutely. I know we're up against it. So Let's go down that track. I've got a final thought, but I want to hold it for a second. So Spencer, we'll follow your lead here.
51:09 - 51:57
Doug Richens: The proven and the practical steps are already on the table. They really are. What I'm just saying is do them in a way that people don't feel threatened. That moment before the training, how you introduce the topic. Remember Compassion, it doesn't just change an individual, it has a powerful ripple effect. And it's the ripple effect of that training, of that correction that we're really interested in. And If leaders are thinking about that, after you meet with a client, here's another skill that's so important. If I sit down with a client, I do a consult, whatever it
51:57 - 52:39
Doug Richens: is, and I talk with them for 15 or 20 minutes, maybe a half hour, the meeting ends. The first 2 or 3 minutes after the meeting ends is where I, inside my mind, am making judgment and decisions about the person, the opportunity, the needs, the alignment. A practical way to create greater compassion in your life is to change those 2 or 3 minutes after the conversation with the team, with an individual, with a potential vendor, with a new client. To frame that in a different way, to see your skill set as valuable and productive, and I
52:39 - 53:18
Doug Richens: did well, instead of beating yourself down. To have the inspiration, the creativity flowing because that mindset is there. Last weekend, 2 weekends ago, I was down at Zion's and I spoke at a men's retreat. I talked to a man who is with 15 to 20 clients a week. And we talked about those few moments after the session. I said, if you could change that, how much more money would it make you? And he said, oh, hands down, probably $150, 000, $200, 000 a year by changing my mindset in the moment after, the meeting after the meeting
53:19 - 53:34
Doug Richens: the post discussion gossip that's culture and that's a place where transformation can happen or you can lead it yourself that's the ripple effect of all of this does that make sense?
53:37 - 54:23
Christian Napier: It does So if I understand correctly, based on just kind of putting a bow on this here is When we look at, and kind of coming to the back of the AI thing, and we have witnessed this here in the state, right, the efficiency gains from implementing it in some of our internal processes as we're piling out some things are incremental, right? But the skills that you're talking about here are transformational, right? When you talk about this Rwanda experience, you know, we could implement processes that could increase the efficiency of that operation by a percentage, you
54:23 - 54:33
Christian Napier: know, by percentages. But whether it happens at all or not is based on a 1 hour conversation you have with the guy at the top
54:34 - 54:34
Doug Richens: If
54:34 - 54:56
Christian Napier: that doesn't go well, it doesn't fly the ability to actually Transform the trajectory not of ourselves individually only but also our organizations are incorporating the skills and the knowledge that you're Sharing with us right now Did I put a bow on it? Okay,
54:56 - 55:34
Doug Richens: you did you did let me just add 1 piece and that is we're talking and not just transformational In the terms of what we observe on the outside, but we are changing the shape of our brain. The hippocampus, the amygdala enlarge. The wiring, men are wired more up and down 1 side of the brain. Women have more connectums and more cross neuro connections cross hemisphere. This lifestyle creates more of that cross hemisphere wiring, we're changing the functionality of the organ itself. And what happens is we make better decisions. And we have a different way of seeing
55:34 - 55:40
Doug Richens: the moment and responding different. Spencer, what was that quote that was just up on the screen?
55:40 - 56:17
Spencer Horn: Sandy says she loves the idea of crucial moments after a meeting. And, you know, it's interesting, I have conversations, I just did this 3 day retreat And after the meeting, you know, we do a little post-mortem, a debrief about what's going on, what went well, and what are some of the challenges that people had and maybe how they shifted. And so it's not, I hear what you're saying. This is more of an internal judgment that we're managing. What I was doing was, I guess, taking my judgments and sharing those with people. Is there a corollary there?
56:17 - 56:41
Doug Richens: Sure, yeah. And our words matter. Hamlet said it best. There is no good or bad, but thinking makes it so. And the expression of those those thoughts create the judgment of performance of good or bad. And when we eliminate the good or bad and we just see an event, see an opportunity as what it is, we can decide what it means for ourselves.
56:42 - 56:45
Spencer Horn: Yeah. I'm so sorry. Go ahead.
56:46 - 56:59
Doug Richens: No, it's just a pathway to create meaning out of all of these moments that build a healthier us, a healthier team. The negativity bias that some people carry is really toxic.
57:00 - 57:30
Spencer Horn: Well, and that's what we've been talking about a lot on this show, especially leading up to this last election. Everyone is so on edge because of that. And what I'm hearing you say is now we're creating psychological safety in how we run our meetings and how we have discussions with people. And what that does is literally change people's brains, which then frees up their creativity, their risk taking, their ability to engage with each other, which all is, it's all contagious. I mean, negativity is contagious and so is this positivity.
57:31 - 57:42
Doug Richens: And just to be funny, it gives them the ability to deal with the creativity. So, and just to be funny, it gives them the ability to deal with the gray space of their life. Ah. Which is part
57:42 - 57:42
Christian Napier: of the branding
57:42 - 57:55
Spencer Horn: of our company is a space of experts. Nice. Well, Kevin, thank you for so many of your comments. Sandy, we appreciate you jumping in as well, listening. And Christian, you know, I want to keep talking, don't you?
57:56 - 58:18
Christian Napier: I do, but I can't believe the hour has already flown by. I mean, it's been I feel like we're just scratching the surface. We really have Doug. And so I imagine that viewers and listeners, they're gonna wanna learn more. I certainly do. If they wanna connect with you, if they wanna learn more about Gray Space, what's the best way for people to reach out and contact you about this.
58:19 - 58:46
Doug Richens: Doug at dougrichins.com. I mean, that just comes right to our team. Our LinkedIn, we're really utilize that as a connection tool. So to connect to us and messages through LinkedIn is very efficient. Gray space experts is our website. So any questions anyone's got happy to jump on a minute call and talk it through with them and help them however we can.
58:47 - 59:13
Christian Napier: Awesome, and we can put the links to the website and stuff there in the show notes as well for the podcast. So thank you for that. And Spencer, you've spent decades helping leaders around the world build high performing teams. If folks wanna know a little bit more about that, how can they connect with you? Please say hi to me on just LinkedIn so easy, Spencer Horn. And Christian same, same. I'm always so now
59:13 - 59:18
Spencer Horn: you talk. Now you know what I'm talking about, Doug. Isn't he great? Yes. I love my friend Christian.
59:18 - 59:21
Doug Richens: I wish I were going to the Red Iguana with you later for lunch, but.
59:21 - 59:22
Christian Napier: I will invite you
59:22 - 59:23
Spencer Horn: in the future.
59:23 - 59:24
Doug Richens: I had a day of fun. I will
59:24 - 59:25
Christian Napier: invite you in the future.
59:25 - 59:40
Spencer Horn: For sure. I messaged my friend in Cyprus and Xenia, And I just said, I'm so excited for them to meet you in person, Christian, because they will love you as much as everybody else. How can people find you?
59:42 - 59:58
Christian Napier: LinkedIn, super easy. Just look for Christian Apeyron LinkedIn. So thank you for the kind words, Spencer. And thank you, Doug, for spending such an impactful hour with us today We really appreciate it and thank you listeners and viewers for joining us on the journey Please like and subscribe to our podcast and we'll catch you again soon