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As the CEO of Kit, Nathan Barry has a front row seat to what’s working in the most successful creator businesses.
On The Nathan Barry Show, he interviews top creators and dives into the inner workings of their businesses in his live coaching sessions.
You get unique insight into how creator businesses work and what you can do to increase results in your own business.
One of the things Nathan is passionate about is helping you create leverage.
Creator Flywheels let you create many copies of yourself so you don’t get bogged down with the little things in your business. Flywheels will help you reach a place where you can focus on revenue instead of busywork.
Tune in weekly for new episodes with ideas and tips for growing your business. You’ll hear discussions around building an audience, earning a living as a creator, and Nathan’s insights on scaling a software company to $100M.
Learn how to get more results with less effort and:
Grow faster over time.
Work less hard over time.
Make more money over time.
Jay Papasan: [00:00:00] If you want to do something big that has been done, go interview as many people that have done it, and then ask the question, what do they all have in common? The things that all these top performers have in common tends to be a simple model that anyone can do.
Nathan Barry: I'm Nathan Barry. I'm the CEO of Kit, and today I'm joined by Jay Papasan.
You have such an interesting story. You've co authored a book that has sold millions of copies.
Jay Papasan: The millionaire real estate agent sold 1. 6 and the one thing is now at 3. 5 million. Any creator can ask, what is my industry missing that I'm the solution for? And whether it's an ebook or a lead magnet, if you're willing to do the hard work, which very few people are, you can become a voice in your industry.
How
can I, in the least amount of time, have the greatest impact? A great business person would be Three hours a day people want to go big and they want to act big to do it But we will act small consistently the discipline of doing the small thing opens the doors to big things
Nathan Barry: You have [00:01:00] such an interesting story in that you've done a lot of things in the corporate business world particularly in real estate and Keller Williams and like Building this substantial business. You've co authored a book that has sold millions of copies
Jay san: Yeah. So if you look at all of the books that we've written, we just, uh, crossed six and a half million copies.
Wow. Our first book is sold 1.6, the Millionaire Real Estate Agent, and our kind of flagship book, the one thing is now at 3.5 million. That's amazing. Oh, it's dream come true.
Nathan Barry: Now, there was something in there I wanna dive into. I believe in the one thing you reference the success that came from the first book.
Like it's sort of a throwaway line. Yeah. I was listening to it and I was like, well, hold on. What, what was that? Uh, something that I'm fascinated on is growing, using a book to grow a business. Yes. And I believe that the first book had a huge impact on growing the business. [00:02:00] I'd like to think
Jay Papasan: so. I think that's why I'm still around and the senior executive 24 years around.
Uh, When I started working at Keller Williams, there were 27 employees. No, it was 6, 700 agents. And today we have about 170, 000 in 54 countries. So it's been kind of a rocket ship. But I remember we were struggling to make a name for ourselves. People said, Keller who? They're like, who's this company?
Because we were growing and you show up, nobody knows who you are. And the way Gary talked about it, um, Gary Keller, the co founder and my co author, is that we just didn't have any saying power with top agents. Like, oh, that's a new agent company. Because we were great at training. That's for new agents.
And how do we become valid with the top people in the industry? And so they did a brainstorm with his executive crew. They did sticky notes, they put a hundred ideas on the wall, just like they're told. And the one they walked out with is that Gary and our former co author Dave Jenks She would write a book about [00:03:00] big success and I joined the team.
Gary did not know I'd worked at HarperCollins Publishers. And you
Nathan Barry: live and breathe books. That's I've,
Jay Papasan: that is the through line of my life. Book nerd. I was a bookseller in college at a small independent in Memphis, Tennessee. I got English degree, worked in two publishing houses. You just name it. Books has been the common thread.
And when I ran into Gary literally in the bathroom of that building, he was plunging a toilet and he said, Look, the chairman of the board is not too proud to do the dirty work. He's made some crack. And I just said, Gary, um, I hear you're writing a book. Do you remember I used to work in publishing? And it was like almost job interview over.
Yeah, exactly. Uh, but I'll, I'll skip to like the creation story. We ended up, I had a month to write the business plan. We wrote that book in a hundred days. Wow. Yeah. So like. Like you've been working with creators for so long. Like, and I throw it out, like Gary had been doing that already for two decades at a high level [00:04:00] masterminding, coaching, taught people.
So like he kind of knew the secret sauce, right? He already had theories, but to write the book that described a big success, we just asked the question, what would someone have to do to debt a million dollars as a real estate sales professional? And no one had ever asked that question and answered it.
When people say like. What is it about your company? You can literally say we wrote the book on X, right? So it's immediate validity Even if the I think the book hadn't been as well received like it a book delivers validity for homes And I think that's very important for
Nathan Barry: what's interesting to me is the positioning is exactly the opposite of how you're perceived in the market Because I think people would have, if you're perceived in the market as the place for new agents to start, you know, how to pay your mortgage as a real estate professional, right?
Like, how do we, how do we achieve basic success or how do we earn a living? And you're like, no, no, no. We're a [00:05:00] sink bigger. Let's think bigger. Let's go straight to the top and explain that and say this thing. Probably the thing that people are like, oh, it's. not actually possible or, um, you know, breaking it down.
I, I love the reverse engineering type of thing to begin with where you're like, all right, well, what would it, what would it have to be true? That's one of my favorite questions in life and business and all of that. Cause we go from a like, is this possible? Could we do this? Any of those questions are so, uh, obstacle and reality based.
And I often switch into like, what would have to be true? And then you're like, all right, well, and you start to list it out that we wouldn't have to have this project. We'd have to focus here. We'd, you know, and so I love it with the premise. You're working
Jay Papasan: backwards from a clear goal, which is a big part of our canon,
Nathan Barry: right?
Jay Papasan: And our philosophy is it's not Jay or Gary or Dave Jinks wisdom. We draw it from the crowd. So we interviewed 27 of the top 100 agents back then. They wouldn't take our call. Honestly. [00:06:00] Yeah. It was the Keller who thing. And so we interviewed them at depth, we got copies of their P& Ls, we gave them to CPA, so like we created Performa, so like we went deep down and like I'd still philosophically believe if you want to do something big that has been done, go interview as many people that have done it and then ask the question, what do they all have in common?
And if you want to count Mount Everest or run, you know, an ultramarathon, the things that all these top performers have in common tends to be a simple model that anyone can do. Most people won't, because it's not easy, but it's simple. So what's an example of that, either in real estate or in another category?
All of them, like we boiled the book down to three focusing principles. The thing that all of these agents did, non stop, was they lead generated. It was in their blood, they were always looking for the next customer. And I think a lot of creators, a lot of entrepreneurs fall prey to, they work really hard to get the customer.
[00:07:00] And then they spent all of their energy trying to wow the customer. And when that contract ends, they look up, and it's that roller coaster. Where's my next check coming from? And they never took the foot off the gas.
Nathan Barry: So with, when the book comes out, what are other things that you noticed that you would apply to, you know, a business like Kit, or, you know, any of these other things where you realize, like, oh, I could write the definitive guide to this, or really, like, get our message and build our brand through
Jay Papasan: a book?
I think the thing that surprised people is that we gave it away. Like, most people thought, well, if you have this knowledge, shouldn't it be proprietary knowledge? Right. Like, literally, we had our franchises, like, why are we sharing this? And Gary's vision was like, no, I want to become known as the place where entrepreneurs thrive.
I want to be known as the place where we teach people to fish. And what better way to do it is than to make it brand agnostic. We interviewed a lot of people. There were only two people in our whole company that qualified to be in the book. That's how small [00:08:00] we were. So we were getting everyone. We didn't mention brand, but twice in the whole book.
And one of them was in our bios. Okay. Right? So that we wanted it to feel safe. Yeah. Brand. I'm not
Nathan Barry: being pitched, I'm not.
Jay Papasan: Yeah, it's just like, here's the vision. Now let's all collaborate. And I think the key is, in an industry, any wild industry, is can you create a common language? I remember being at one of the masterminds where we were looking at people's budgets.
And we had people go up to the podium. This is back when they had the clear overheads. Technology, right? And people started walking us through their books. And finally Gary just said, stop. Because no one had defined what marketing was. Oh, so everybody's running their P& Ls differently. Everybody's using different terms.
Nobody had a consistent chart of accounts. We had to get an accountant to come through and say, like, go through their ledgers and make it normant. So like, I can't know what someone is spending on lead generation. [00:09:00] It's 10 percent on average for all those groups. A dollar out of every 10 they were putting back in the kitty to grow the business.
And so we started to see a pattern that then people could make decisions on. But when everybody's not speaking in common language, it's the blind leading the blind. The worst thing I hate hearing entrepreneurs is like, Oh, do you have an assistant? How much do you pay them? And they're like, well, Nathan's really smart.
But I'm like, that's ridiculous. What's the cost of great labor in Boise? Or in a virtual company compared to where I am and what's their job description? The job description is a huge
Nathan Barry: difference. Like managing email, you know, like, yeah, you get all these titles that there's a huge range in. Yeah. And you're like, you know, my assistant or chief of staff or executive assistant or all those things that mean radically different things.
Jay Papasan: Right. I just think as founders of any business, small or large, I like the strategy of can you take the position that your industry is fundamentally broken and you're the solution. And so with the millionaire real estate agent, [00:10:00] real estate agents were seen as salespeople, like outside of modern family, name one instance of a realtor being seen as positive.
Yeah, that's not, no, or as a business person. Right. And so what they craved was to be seen as business people. And so we gave them the guidebook. And I think any founder, creator can ask, what is my industry missing that I'm the solution for? And whether it's an e book or a lead magnet, I like books because I don't care if you give me a 50 glossary brochure, I have zero, like, inhibitions about throwing it straight in the trash can.
People don't throw away books. They send them to the used bookstore and your marketing lives on. Okay. Or they give them away to someone who needs it. So I think if you're willing to do the hard work, which very few people are of writing the book, you can, you can become a voice in your industry.
Nathan Barry: Yeah. And so then what, well, I actually, one thing I want to go to [00:11:00] is the idea of Like why, why me, you know, like for each individual, I think about this at conferences, like I remember being at Chris Gillibeau's, uh, the world domination summit, which brought together so many really great creators.
He ran it for 10 years and love Chris. Yeah. Just amazing creator. And I remember thinking, you know, there's 3000 people in an auditorium listening to him and it was sort of like, why him in particular? And, you know, so much of his work is inspiring and all that and he, but he pulled people together or like another example is thinking of Michael Stelzner who founded social media marketing world.
Nope. I'm not familiar with that. So he, you know, it's like a in San Diego, 4, 000 people at the San Diego convention center. Wow. And he's giving a talk. It was like 2015. On the state of social media, you know? So it's like the state of the union address for the social media world. And I was like, huh, I kind of had a similar, like I, [00:12:00] before showing up, you know, I was there as a vendor and all of that.
I didn't know who Michael was and all that. Then it was realizing no one said like, Oh, Michael, you are in charge of social media. You should give the state of the union for the, you know, like we elected you president. He just said like, I made this conference. I will be on stage. All of that. Like, I imagine it's similar.
You don't know what to say. Like, uh, you know, Gary, Jay, et cetera. We need someone to like, you are our saviors to fix this industry, you know, or to explain the solution. It's like, no, we're going to do it and you choose yourself and go out there and then. You know, like you're saying, go do the 25 interviews, standardize everything, compile it and say, this is what actually works.
Anyone who has some level of credibility and expertise, like I don't want to discount that, but then who decides to come in and break it, all of this down. Can't do it. Like another example is, uh, this woman named Chanel who has a newsletter called growth in reverse. Yeah. And she's built a great following.
I'm going to study what [00:13:00] all the great newsletter creators did, how they built their audience and break it down. And no one said like, Oh, you're credible enough to do this. Like she built the credibility over time.
Jay Papasan: Yeah.
Nathan Barry: So yeah. Yeah. What do you think about choosing? And be like, Oh, I'm going to be the one to fix the industry, define the standards, any of those things.
Jay Papasan: Well, there's a mindset thing for everybody. We all know how prevalent imposter syndrome is for any entrepreneur. So you definitely have to get help getting past that. But I like to lean on what we talked about earlier. If you're drawing the wisdom of the crowd, you're just a curator. And so we could only get 27 people to do interviews with us.
Today, like our standard is we don't stop till we do at least 100 top performers. And so like the Millionaire Real Estate Agent, I got to interview 120 net worth millionaires. And go through their portfolios. I knew nothing about investors. But you do 120 interviews. You transcribe them, you highlight them, you look for patterns.
And you are an expert now. Great. [00:14:00] And the thing is nobody else has done a hundred interviews. Now podcast hosts have, right? But that's
Nathan Barry: like the level of targeted focus and the research with it and all of that.
Jay Papasan: Like you could say, I've done this forever and that builds credibility. I built kit that builds credibility.
I host this conference that builds credibility. But I like when you source the wisdom because you also are giving ownership to the crowd. And when there's a we involved versus an I, I think people are that much prouder of it. Like it becomes this thing. Look at what we built. Like if you look at the acknowledgements on our books, they're ridiculous.
Like 14 pages. We mentioned everyone who contributed and we send them copies because we want them to feel ownership of the work. So I think that it's about positioning yourself. To have an interesting perspective on the industry, maybe a little contrarian, which is great. And if you catch the right zeitgeist, you can run away.
If I'm thinking, what are the seven signals guys? They wrote re rework.
Nathan Barry: Yeah. [00:15:00] 37 signals, 37 signals. I dropped a base camp rework. Yeah. Um, a bunch of those things. Yeah. Very much contrarian take, and I have just put out a lot of really great content over the years.
Jay Papasan: And, and that put them on a bigger map. Oh, by far.
Nathan Barry: Yeah.
Jay Papasan: And like, but who knew them? And Atlassian and all of that before, like it all made it just boom. They stepped in, they had a provocative view, they made it very digestible and they just leveled up in terms of their authority.
Nathan Barry: I mean, just absolute step function. Yeah. You know, like Jason free had a call in with Inc magazine for years, you know, at a, at a time when like that gave him a huge amount of credibility and he got it through publishing the books and have, you know, having this unique perspective on business.
Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so where'd you go from there? Like what, what made the jump into from a real estate book into writing the one thing, which, you know, is much more of a math market book.
Jay Papasan: It was a bit
Nathan Barry: of an accident.
Jay Papasan: So what if my, at three different times I've run [00:16:00] all education for our company and I was running it, I had just written a big course for what does an entrepreneur have to do to earn the right to bring on their first employee was the question we asked, like in our industry, we kind of did the math and it was around 36 transactions.
You should be thinking hard about bringing someone on to amplify your business. That doesn't apply to anything else that anybody we're talking to, but that was the math. And I remember I asked Gary to review it, and he said, Can I write an intro? He came back, uh, on Friday and handed us a 14 page essay called The Power of One.
Nathan Barry: And you're like, Eh, not quite an intro. That's a little different than what we had in mind. That's typical
Jay Papasan: of him. Yeah. But he made it all about the, he just said, A great business person would lead generate for three hours a day. That's And that like, it's funny, it went from two hours to three hours to eventually four hours.
Oh, wow. About half of every day. To lead generation to growing the future business while you're maintaining it. But that was the one thing, like that was the first thing I mentioned in terms of what we learned from all these top agents [00:17:00] is they focused first on growing their customer base, right. And then serving them.
And they were unapologetic about it. And people would say, oh, but those big teams, they don't give the best, the best service. It's not like my boutique. But you go to the other side and you have nationwide boutiques, but you have to go through that messy middle. You have to earn the right to get there. So he made it.
And I just remember sitting down, I said, Gary, I think this is a book. And he goes, I thought the same thing. And as someone who had worked as an editor and acquired big books in New York, I was like, what I loved about it is having worked with him then for seven or eight years, the philosophy lined up with all of his success.
Very few people, very few founders. 'cause we, we've talked about this. You've got all of these ideas that you want to pursue. He was willing and he's very much guilty of that too. But when he found the right one, he would give it all of his time and resources until it was done, everything else went away and it was crazy how [00:18:00] dedicated he would be to his one thing.
And like those hundred days, we wrote the first book, not much else happened in his business world, except for that book. He let the fires burn or gave them to someone else until it was done. And that's rare. But I was like, this is concentric. This is not a idea book. This is an idea and experience book.
And that started a five year journey. It took us five years to write it. And we got distracted on a book about focus and wrote another book in the middle. But that's a story for another day.
Nathan Barry: So, all right. I want to dive into this idea of that level of focus on the one thing, because. I can be very determined for a long period of time.
Like one of my traits is to be well, as I will stay on something, you know, longer than other people think is reasonable. Uh, but I will come up with like 12 different ways to accomplish the same goal. And, uh, you know, [00:19:00] so if the, the goal is like growing, you know, kit as a software company to serve creators, then I'll, I'll jump into like, you know, Not only the core feature set of the product, but you know, we'll launch the creator network so everyone can recommend each other.
We'll acquire a spark loop to build in paid recommendations. We'll launch a sponsorship network. So we can, you know, fit this, this core message of like getting money in the hands of creators. Yes. And then outside of it, you know, I write my blog and newsletter, host this podcast. I have this creator flywheels concept that every time I teach at a mastermind, people are like, I love this.
Like, where's the full course? I'm like, well, I'm, I'm making that, you know, but it's a year in the works and all of these things. And then of course I have. I think five books that I want to write. Uh, well, you know, but I tend to do everything in parallel rather than in sequence. What you're describing from Gary is [00:20:00] doing it in sequence.
Yes. And so I, I, I just open it up for your thoughts. Okay.
Jay Papasan: Well, you're not alone and we go through periods where we suffer from it as well. I think the number one thing when someone reads the one thing is they think it's only one thing. It's just one thing at a time. So you said the key word success is sequential.
But like, even when Gary was writing the book, he didn't neglect his wife or his son. Right. Right. He still worked out every day. He still practices a guitar. But he built a system, a schedule that he lived that allowed him to focus. And at that time, it was about two or three hours in the morning. We would come together, we would brainstorm.
I would take all the flip charts, go into an office, and my job on that first book was to turn around about 14 page chapter every day. And the next morning, we would review it. They would give me the edits, then we'd start brainstorming the next, and we'd just repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. And so His day was very focused.
Everything revolved around making that a productive two to three hour [00:21:00] block,
Nathan Barry: right?
Jay Papasan: There were other things that were happening But that was the thing that we made non negotiable for that period of time And I think everybody if you're out there listening you're jogging or driving the car Just sitting at your desk watching this on YouTube Like there's a time that you knew that you had to be all in on something to succeed at it Whether it was studying for that final exam so you graduate from college or completing that course so you could launch it by deadline.
We go through periods where we do this and we talk about this as the day before vacation miracle. Like the day before vacation, like we are productivity machines.
Nathan Barry: Yeah.
Jay Papasan: Like we don't read any crap email, like we just get stuff done because we have a really good reason to do it. We want to not work on vacation.
And I think it's impossible to live that level of focus because we don't always have a vacation the next day, but can we remind ourselves of what's at stake around the one thing and be really clear about both the, the, the, the reward [00:22:00] of succeeding, but I also think equally the cost of failure, like that's my guide as being a husband and a father too.
Like when we came in here, you were being a father first, right? Hey, we can't start the podcast because I've got dad duty, which I respect 100%. And I love that because you know the cost of failure is something that you don't want to regret in the future. And I think a lot of people focus way too much on the rewards of success and they become yes machines in business.
And they, and entrepreneurs are optimistic. They don't think about the cost of failing at those things. Thank you so much. And if someone says, I really want to do write five books, I'll say, let's go in the future. Nathan, you're on your deathbed. You didn't write any of them, but it was a massive success.
Kids all love you. They're all gathered around your bed. Wife is with you holding your hand saying, I've made the best choice of my life. Do you regret not writing those five books? And you don't have to answer on the microphone, but if the answer is yes, and I would [00:23:00] go, Which one in particular? Right. Now, let's start there and put it on a schedule and it could start with 30 minutes a day.
I mean, John Grisham wrote his best book, writing on a train every day, right? You find him. I think it's Tony Morrison was an editor. I might get it mixed up. And she, Ryan Holiday told me this story. She had two kids, single parent. She had to go and work at a big publishing house. She was writing her novel.
She said, I had to write every day before anyone said, Mama. And so she just got up earlier, which meant she went to bed earlier, but she found that hour or two to methodically do her one thing while also keeping her life in balance and just figuring out what am I making a stand on? When can I time block, time I can control to do it?
However limited. If it's really limited, it just means it's not a long timeline. And then I don't divert from that until it's done. Yeah. It makes me think
Nathan Barry: about the [00:24:00] idea of being able to look at someone's calendar and see their priority. And I think for most people. You couldn't do that. Like if you look at their calendar and it's like, all right, here it is.
I printed out my calendar for the last three weeks. Look it over Jay. What, what am I focused on? What is my biggest priority? You'd be like, uh, that, okay. Hiring new team members seems important. Uh, you know, like you flip through it and you wouldn't be able to tell. And what you're describing is look at that calendar and be like, Seems like writing a book or you know, , whatever it is, is really important to you.
Yeah. And so with no other context, could someone determine
Jay Papasan: what's most important to you? And I think if you show me enough of your calendar, I can take a really good guess at your values.
Nathan Barry: Hmm.
Jay Papasan: Right. Yeah. And I do think that how we invest our time is often an expression of it. But a lot of times we're just spending, we're not investing our time.
So like the key is like, how do we get enough buffer time in our lives to make a little bit better [00:25:00] decisions? And like, nobody has a perfect day every day, but like, that's the whole point. Can you have one perfect hour and just play the tortoise and the hare game for the rest of your life? Right. And people underestimate how much they can achieve in five years while they overestimate what they'll do in one.
Right. And they just play that game again and again.
Nathan Barry: What, one thing that stands out from your story of writing the million dollar real estate agent is the tape feedback loop. I think today, maybe it's because of the way we approach remote work or our like respect for each other's schedules or whatever else.
The most common thing is like, Hey, why don't we would have a Kate, like a weekly cadence, right? The most common thing is, you know, like, Hey, could you get this out? Yeah. Yeah. I'll have it done by the end of the week. The end of the week is not a deadline or a timeline that makes any sense, you know, but it's like, okay, Oh, is it a five day task?
I didn't realize that, you know, it's actually a 12 minute task, but [00:26:00] you know, but in this case you said a chapter a day and we're going to meet, it's not, call me when the chapter is done and then we'll schedule a time to meet. Talk about it. It's like, well, I will see you back here at nine tomorrow morning and we'll go through whatever we have.
And so that the cadence and the feedback loop and everything is very, very tight.
Jay Papasan: There was accountability for me and knowing someone was going to be there waiting. It's like when you're trying to build the gym habit, maybe you pick a friend and say, we'll meet at the gym at 6 AM. Right. I did that one year.
The other guy slept in, but I went, cause I am like, I am powered by trust. You trusted me to be here. I'm here. And then I would work out alone. But like, I think there is power and accountability of knowing someone's waiting on you for something specifically. Just to be clear, there were plenty of days I came in.
I was like, I only got two pages done and lost. I didn't ask you the right questions and we'd start over. But there was always progress being made.
Nathan Barry: We had, I mean, two pages in a day, even, even you're [00:27:00] like, you know, fairly mediocre days. Yeah. You're like, that's, that's a lot of progress.
Jay Papasan: I think your friend, James Clear, like I, one of his quotes, which I'll butcher is like.
When you think about, um, this idea of identity habits and the person who goes to the gym, like your best days are the days that you didn't feel like it, but you showed up and did a crappy workout,
Nathan Barry: right?
Jay Papasan: You just showed up. And so, but stringing those together creates a kind of momentum in itself.
Nathan Barry: Yeah.
Okay. So then I guess in order to do that, that assumes that we've chosen the one thing that we're going to focus on. The problem that I run into is Hopefully this doesn't sound arrogant, but I have a lot of great ideas.
Jay Papasan: Well, here's, here's the thing. I actually have, I used to think that great ideas were incredibly valuable. Now I think they're really cheap. Yeah. Right. I agree with ideas is actually as a founder myself, [00:28:00] like you realize, like I love the idea. But let's make it work. Right. So ideas that get executed are the ones that are truly valuable.
But do you have a compass for deciding, if I had to choose, which one would it be? And that's the question everybody hates. I ask it to my people all the time. Two things. You want to do this, right? When are you going to do it? That forces them to look at their calendar and ask the question, how much time will this take?
Right. So that they have to give an informed yes. And the other one is, of all these things you say you want to do, If I told you you could only do one, which would it be? And I used to think people wouldn't know the answer. But people actually do. Like, they're very clear. They're like, it would be this one.
Or it might be narrowed down to two. It's actually a lot easier to choose, but people aren't taking the time to choose. And they don't have anything to consult when they do it. Like, I've got my core values. I've got them on my phone. Every time I unlock my phone, it says, Impact Family Abundance. And My rule is that a big [00:29:00] decision has to be a nine out 10 on all three.
Okay. And so I delay all my decisions until I can do that math.
Nathan Barry: Hmm.
Jay Papasan: So I've got a, you know how you can type in TY in your phone and what does it do? Thank you. Yeah. Right. I don't, is there a programming word for what that is? I don't even know. Yeah, just an auto complete or shortcut or auto complete. I, you can create those on your phone.
Yep. So I've got one where if I type in no social. It'll pre populate, Hey, thank you so much. I'm trying to avoid making commitments through DMs and social media. Would you mind emailing me this to my email address so that my chief of staff, Carly, and I can get together and find out when we could do this together.
Thanks so much. All it takes is four letters before it pre populates and then I send it. If they can't be bothered to email me, then they weren't that serious about it either. But it puts it into one bucket. And now I'm making decisions, [00:30:00] looking at all my choices. Right. Versus making them about the first good thing that's in front of me.
And like, delaying things like 24 hours is not that big of a deal. You just, I've just built a habit of saying, awesome, can I get back to you on that? And most people are okay with that.
Nathan Barry: Do you have other little things like that? Yeah. The hacks or the tricks of how you make this easier on yourself?
Jay Papasan: Well, I think the value thing for big decisions.
Yeah. I don't pull that out when my wife and I are trying to pick what to stream on. Right. Right. It's like, what, what do we want to watch? Let's just. It's only a seven out of 10 on the impact. Yeah. This is not, Peaky Blinders is not really a family friendly movie, so I'm not going to watch it. No. But I do think that the hack of delaying decisions, I like to put hurdles in front of people.
Um, I remember, uh, someone, uh, Gary was talking about when he was first launching the company, there was always a line [00:31:00] outside of his office and saying, can you teach me how to do this? And he's like, did you go to the class? And they're like, no. He's like, when is the class? Well, it's next Tuesday. And they're like, but I need it now.
And so this is back in the day, he started videotaping his classes, like today, that's so easy, right? Then whatever. Yeah. And I just say, if you, he would say, watch this video, hand him the VHS. And if you still have questions, come back. So when we wrote them, the one thing there was like, you know, how this can be, there's a lot of people that are founders that want your time.
We give me advice. And people gave you advice. So you want to say yes. If you ever saying, Jay, we helped me write a book. And so I went to our big convention. I taught a class. I've taught it five times now, videotaped it every time. And when people say, I say, absolutely. I would love to help you. Um, if you'll email me here, my assistant will send you an hour and 15 minute class I taught on it.
And if you still have questions, circle back. So [00:32:00] putting that little block, like if you do this, I will do this. I tracked it for three years. only one in seven people circle back for time.
Nathan Barry: Oh, interesting.
Jay Papasan: And so either they couldn't be bothered, which means they were going to waste my time to begin with, or I did a good job and I answered their questions, but I did it through like an FAQ or whatever else.
So like, I just think I leverage that situation
Nathan Barry: because you took something, you productize that knowledge into a free class, you know, and then you. Yeah, I gave them that answer, that information without you
Jay Papasan: having to do it live. And we could actually have the conversation in about 30 minutes. Whereas if we were just sitting down cold, I would spend like a half hour educating you on what you needed to know to make a good decision.
So like, just think of, can I make an investment today that saves me time for years to come? [00:33:00] Like, uh, Rory Vaden, I don't know if you know him as a friend. Yeah, I do. He taught me that, and there's no science, but I believe it, that if you do something really well and it takes you an hour, it'll take you about 30 hours to train someone on your team to do it at a level that you'll accept.
Nathan Barry: Okay.
Jay Papasan: And so every week, you show up, you got the hour long task, and you're faced with this dilemma. Do I make the investment, or just do it myself? What do we do? We almost always do it ourselves. Right. Because I'd rather spend an hour than think about the investment. And it's not like you do 30 hours in one block.
But you would spend weeks doing it. But every year you don't make that investment of time to teach someone how to think about that thing. Every year you're losing 22 hours. Like it's just, those deficits add up as your business grows. And so like now we have wikis, we have loom. Like we have
Nathan Barry: so many tools.
It's so much easier. Thanks. [00:34:00] Yeah, because the first version of it now is you just record yourself doing it.
Jay Papasan: And you're like. Do you have questions? So like there's, I think the 30 times doesn't apply for things that aren't highly skilled anymore. But are we taking the moment to make the investment to train someone to do it to our standards?
It also requires us to be clear on our standards, which I think a lot of people are. Yeah. I mean, that happens a lot.
Nathan Barry: So those are the ones off the top of my head. Yep. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. Dan Martell is another friend. And he. is really good at recording, like, you know, his SOPs and processes and all of that.
So that he does whenever he gives feedback on something to make it really easy for him, he calls it the camcorder technique. And what he does is on his iPad, he records a screen. And so if he's like, you know, it might be a, um, Uh, an essay that he's giving feedback on or designs or something like that. And he just marked like screen record, mark it up top, like talk over it and then fire it [00:35:00] off.
And then I'll have more and more of these examples of him doing it or teaching this thing. And you can just create a library
Jay Papasan: for your business. I mean, I think a lot of people do now.
Nathan Barry: Yep. That's big. So you have this interesting balance between, a very traditional creator, like endeavors and all of that.
And then being a full time team member and exec at Keller Williams. And you, you have, I think of three main buckets, really the writing, the, uh, like the whole business that you're building as a creator and then your work as Keller Williams, they overlap. Is, are those three buckets kind of right? Yeah.
Those would be my professional buckets for sure. How would you break down and describe the main buckets of your professional life?
Jay Papasan: So I've, I'm an employee still and an executive at Keller Williams and I run three departments there and, but I've, I also allowed myself to hit a ceiling. I accept it. [00:36:00] That's not the company I wanted to be CEO of.
I wasn't ever going to be as qualified as some of the other candidates and I wasn't just going to chase that for ambition's sake. So I found the role. That aligned the most. It's like, I'm in charge of strategic content, completely made up title. I designed it. So I wouldn't get as many cold DMS on LinkedIn because no one's got that title.
There's chief strategy officers. There's chief content, but like I made a mashup, but I do our books, our podcast, and I consult on our courses and stages. And so like all of that aligns with my work as a creator. Like I'm kind of in that hat. Most of the time you're,
Nathan Barry: you're this in house. Creator and executive.
Yeah.
Jay Papasan: And it lines up with the philosophy of the one thing, like I got really clear. I'm like, the thing that I've done that has helped the company the most is help the founder write books that create thought leadership in our industry. And the longer I sit there while writing courses, stage speeches, whatever that [00:37:00] is, developing that content, I'm doing my one thing.
And I believe that I will get paid the most in that role I can, if I'm doing it at the best level I can. Whether I'm there or anywhere else. So I tried as much as I could to negotiate aligning what I was doing. And there've been periods like one disastrous, I mean, they thought it was a great manager, but like I would let our marketing team, I am not qualified to lead a marketing team for two years.
But I did it because I've been around and they needed red eaters. Like there are moments where I'm very much, um, kind of out of my depth, um, running the productive company is something I did last year, stepped into the CEO role. And that is actually a tension now because I don't think being a part time CEO is wise.
Unless it's a completely automated business. It doesn't really require
Nathan Barry: video.
Jay Papasan: And so I'm resolving some of that by negotiating my time between the two worlds. Because Gary is a part owner of that business too, so we have a win. But for me navigating, when do I get my creative [00:38:00] time, has been the hardest thing to fit in.
So I write early in the morning. I sometimes write after work, which I don't like as a habit. And I have, we're mostly empty nesters. I have a 20 year old and an 18 year old.
Nathan Barry: Right.
Jay Papasan: And my wife runs a business too, so a lot of Saturday and Sunday mornings after I walk, like I find that wonderful IT creative blocks and I get a lot done.
Yeah, I'm the same way that like a two hour chunk on the weekend can be really, really good. I have the benefit and I know a lot of people don't, of having a chief of staff, EA assistant, whatever you, whatever that role is for you, that helps me navigate my calendar and I just always tell her my number one is how do I get at least four creative blocks every week?
Mondays I've just given up because that's when everybody needs my vision or help making sure their priorities are right. So we do line up all of our team meetings and as many of my one on ones and that allows me to have that creative time usually between [00:39:00] 10 a. m. and 2 p. m. during the week. The mornings are also I show up and there's a fire burning.
So it's not like I get to go into like my writing closet or whatever that is, but on my headphones, I usually need to, we call it clearing the decks. Clear the decks so that everybody's kind of good. It's like, great. Don't bug me until two o'clock. And so I can get those blocks. And I've had a coach now for 15 years on my fifth one.
And the number one thing I asked them to ask me every accountability session is how many books did you read? Since the last time we talked, how many writing sessions do you have? And so I've got four metrics total that I know are habits that if I do, I will be successful And they have to ask me, or I tell them I will fire you.
And they're like, but you always do them. And I was like, but the point is you have to always ask me, because if you ghost me on that. I might start cheating. I just do a lot at you. I'm sorry. [00:40:00]
Nathan Barry: No, I really like, so I'm a huge fan of coaching and I really like this model of that very deliberate accountability and the clarity that comes from, if you don't do this, I will fire you.
Um, lots of things in life are implied or like a few steps removed, you know, like you don't say, Hey, if you don't show up or do your job, I'm going to fire you. Like it's sort of. understood, you know, in general business. But like that level of clarity of saying like, this is really important to me. And like, I have not done that with my coach of saying like, these are the two metrics that I care about the most.
I want you to ask me about it every single time because you're absolutely right. Like I will do it for three weeks or four weeks and then I will slip and all of that. And so having people in your life. Who will continue to ask you like, what's most important? How can I help you? How can I keep you accountable to that?
Yeah, that's a really good thing.
Jay Papasan: It's it's the clarity of me figuring out the [00:41:00] four metrics over time was huge. And it's weird. Like I, cause I'm a nerd, like my, I do a four one, one to call it. We're having my annual goals, my monthly goals. And every week I break them down into weekly, but. Four of those goals flip to the chart where I track how many writing days I've had over the last, like going back to 2008, 2009.
Nathan Barry: Okay, wow.
Jay Papasan: And I can see the periods where it was bad. And good and like in the last six weeks, last month, I read one book and I went through my entire history and I've never read less than three books in a month. There's so many things converge that I dropped it. And so my whole last coaching call was around, how do we build that time and space?
And I was like, I just sit down to read and my brain goes to all of these other flames in my life. And so we came up with a plan, but like he did his job, we went to that thing. Yeah. Every week I try to do one thing to promote the books that are out there. It used to be saying Yes to a podcast. I'm doing one check.
Yep. Right. And I [00:42:00] track those. And then, um, I track adding people to my database. Hmm. So, as an introvert founder, I knew that I would get some doors open, but I, I remember sitting down with my coach and saying, should I go to confide? And it just filled me with dread. I was looking at FinCon and all of these things, like, how will I network?
And I was just getting a cold pit in my stomach. And I got invited to an interview. A woman wrote a blog called Coffee with a Stranger. I don't think it still exists. And I said, tell me about this. She goes, every week I meet with a stranger, and then I write about it on my blog. It's an excuse to write.
And I was like, I'm stealing that. And so, I had a Wednesday date since like, 2000, maybe 11, I don't know. Where I just try to add one person to my database that's talent. So that, like my wife Lash, she's a realtor. She's never met a stranger kind of thing. Like, one person to your database a week? That's the slowest success plan I've ever heard.
But if they're talent, like the people we meet at this [00:43:00] mastermind, you earn the right to get their information and stay in touch is the rule. Like, let's trade information, let's stay in touch. Well, 50 a year over 10 years. You've got like a golden database now.
Nathan Barry: What do you do? And like from a, I guess it's less of a tool or tech question, though.
Maybe there's an element of that from like a personal CRM, but I'm curious. Like I know really a lot of people, but I'm not good at having it, having systems. And yeah, tell me all about it. I get to talk about Kit doing
Jay Papasan: this. This is great. So about a year and a half into the first year I did 50 inklet.
That was my goal. 50. Okay. And then you didn't do any more. Well, to the rest of the year, I gave myself the rest of the year off. Because sometimes you got two in a week or something. And, um, the next year, because I showed up with no agenda other than, I've heard you're a great founder. I've heard you're a great designer.
I've heard whatever. I'd love to get to know you as the invite. They would say, I know this person. So the next year I did [00:44:00] 79. And the next year I did 120 before I scaled back. These are one on ones? One on ones over coffee. Okay. Right. And I'm very consistent with getting up and getting coffee, whether at home or somewhere.
So like,
Nathan Barry: right. Why, why not have another human there?
Jay Papasan: Yeah. So doing it an hour earlier, like I had to navigate the drop offs with my wife, but we could do that. Um, but then my coach said, and how are you staying in touch? And I was like, right, they, they call and email me. And he's like, that doesn't work.
That's not a system. And so my system, to be
Nathan Barry: clear, yes, yes.
Jay Papasan: Um, I'll be so successful. They'll reach out to me. Uh, but he said, no, I want you to come up with a plan. So I had a month and that's when I started my personal newsletter and it's called what I'm up to. And I would just write two or three paragraphs, what me and the family had been up to that month.
Yep. I would write what books I read for the month. Another form of accountability. Cause now I've got whoever's listening. And then what movies and shows we watch. Because that's my complete turn off the work brain, watch a show. [00:45:00] And it's very personal, I would tell people it's not a public list, I'm not trying to grow it, I'm not trying to sell anything.
It's just a way to stay in touch. At the end of every one I have, please reply back and tell me what you're up to. And it started, I think I invited 60 people and now it's on ConvertKit, we can look it up. I moved it to ConvertKit as soon as I met you. I think we've got 600 people on there that still are subscribers.
And I get 30 or 40 replies every month. Like, Oh, that was really cool. I saw that movie too, or whatever. And it creates energy. And so I can stay top of mind. Did I not ever invite you to my what I'm up to newsletter? Cause that's okay. Well, then I will Nathan, a kid dot com.
Nathan Barry: That you'll have to confirm it in your inbox. Yep. I'll make sure to do that. I really like that because I notice how the times that I'm active, like posting to Instagram stories or something like that, which I go in waves, like I might be at an event and I would post a bunch of stuff and then [00:46:00] I'll go a month without posting anything.
But like I've realized just being top of mind with people and the replies that I get and I'm like, Oh, I had no idea that. This person was, yeah, paying attention to my stuff or followed me. And, and I just love those little interactions. And so you have a really good system for it. And
Jay Papasan: I just, like, I believe in, if you know something will make you successful, like one of the fundamental, like my number one keynote is around building a power habit in your life.
So like, what makes you successful and can you turn that into a habit? And we refer to it as like, what's the first domino to building that habit? If you want to meditate, don't start by going to a Zen center and doing it for an hour. Because that'll fall apart. Like now you have to plan for the trip and an hour of your day, but like, you can get on Headspace and start with 10 minutes right beside your bed.
Yep. Like, so what's a small thing that you can build the habit and then build on it? And so for me, like a monthly newsletter was a lift I felt like I [00:47:00] could commit to. And sometimes it's a grind, but I felt like I could do it. I've been doing it for seven and a half years now. And it just now, again, momentum, you keep doing the thing and it makes you that much more likely not to break the chain.
You don't want to break the chain. People love streaks. We love streaks. Oh yeah. And so just don't break the chain.
Nathan Barry: I like it. Okay, so the other thing I want to go back to is your metrics that you're tracking. Yes. It was books read.
Jay Papasan: Writing sessions, writing blocks. Yeah. Uh, books read. . I try to read 50 a year, half of them nonfiction.
Nathan Barry: Okay.
Jay Papasan: Um, and then I have my promotion per week. Um, I've also tracked my keynotes, but that's just more of like, is the business going up or down? Yeah. That's not a key one. And then, um, did I add someone to my database? The follow up now is automatic. In the beginning I was like, did I write my newsletter?
Right. And that was a thing. But, and then that dropped [00:48:00] off of being a key metric because
Nathan Barry: it's a habit. It's a habit now. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. I've got to write it on the plane home. Right. Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. And so are you tracking this in a big spreadsheet? What's yeah. And just unsophisticated, but there's something special about that where
Jay Papasan: you're just like, yeah, check it off.
It was kind of, well, yeah. I mean, uh, the story we tell in the book is of Seinfeld. He was at an open mic, and an engineer who wanted to be a comedian came up to him and said, Mr. Seinfeld, I want to be a comedian, what should I do? And Seinfeld immediately said, go get a big giant wall calendar, and every day write a joke.
And every day you write a joke, put a big red X, and pretty soon it won't be about writing a joke, it'll be about not breaking the chain, which is where that comes from. Just build the habit, and you just, people can't believe that writing one joke a day It'd make you a comedian, but like every day Seinfeld writes a joke.
Mm-Hmm. . And he's been doing it his whole [00:49:00] career. And it's like the discipline of doing the small thing often opens the doors to big things. Right. And it's not intuitive. People wanna go big and they, they want to act big to do it, but we will act small consistently. That focused action that leads to that, that's the thing that you can do every day.
Yeah.
Nathan Barry: I like it. The consistency. Yeah. I'm trying to think. For me. like the creative blocks would be a good way to frame it because then it could expand beyond writing. Yes. You know, and it's whether it's creating the podcast or, you know, recording video content or something like that. Like that's the biggest thing that gives me the most leverage because all the interaction with the team, um, conversations, all of that will fit into the empty space around it.
Jay Papasan: If you, um, when we teach people how to block a calendar, the first thing we tell them to put on is their vacation. Which is ironic, not their one thing, but their vacation. Because you know this, if you're going to be successful, it takes energy, which means [00:50:00] you have to have rest. And as Americans, like if you're listening to this in the United States, we don't take our vacation time.
And I work in an industry of entrepreneurs where burnout is very prevalent. I would imagine you probably know more than me if burnout, I talked to some writers that these weekly deadlines, they get burnout. So how do we rest and restore? Um, and people are like, but I can't do that. I'm like, yes, you can. If you, it's like putting a boulder in the stream, like I'm going to go on vacation for two weeks.
I don't even know where I'm going, but I'm going to block my calendar. Right. And because your calendar is blocked, but people try to book you say, you know what, I'm going to be out of the country then, or I'm going to be whatever. It's like, can you do it before or after work will flow around it. But if you don't plan for it and block it, it's the same with your writing block.
It's the key is. Like a meeting with yourself to do your most important work, which is what, how we call it in the one thing, your writing block. Someone says, can you meet tomorrow at nine? You look at your calendar and say, I'm already booked. Can you do it later?
Nathan Barry: Right.
Jay Papasan: You never say [00:51:00] I'm writing them because they might ask, could you skip a day?
Nathan Barry: Right. Or could you shift that to the afternoon or whatever else? You
Jay Papasan: look at most people's calendars. Nobody makes appointments with themselves. They're all appoints with other people. So their assumption is, I mean, you have to be pretty arrogant to say, will you cancel that for me? Yeah. Like nobody does.
They just immediately fall in line and say, great, I can do it at two. That's the principle. Yep. And just a handful of those every week over time, I believe, and I've seen will transform how you perform.
Nathan Barry: Yeah.
Jay Papasan: That makes a lot of sense. I'm kind of on my soapbox here.
Nathan Barry: No, but I like it. I think as we talk about a lot of.
professional creators, they often stop doing the very thing that got them to the stage that they're at. Yeah. It seems like that's something that you resonate with. Yeah, I did.
Jay Papasan: I did. I mean, um, Gary and I haven't published a book in 10 years. We've republished some books. We've updated them. Yeah. I keep it going, but I'm on, I think I have 20 days left to [00:52:00] finish a manuscript I'm working on right now.
Um, and, But it's like, it's such a relief to come out the other side. But I'll admit, for the first two or three years, my coach was like, your writing blocks aren't being used on books right now. They're being used on keynotes and things like that. But the velocity of the one thing, I just said, I think I owe it to myself in the future to give this book everything I have every week until that velocity slows.
And so I was okay with that for about three, three and a half years when that launch was just crazy. Yeah. Um, we went up, I think seven straight years in a row or something crazy of like selling more copies than the previous years before it kind of leveled off. And some of that was international audiences that come online much later.
Right. But, um, but then I started getting antsy and I'd like you read a post from Ryan Holiday or somebody like, yeah, you're doing all the things. around the success you created, but none of the things that created success. [00:53:00] So, honestly, you were part of this. Like, one of the things that got me back writing was I dedicated myself to a weekly newsletter.
And we put it on, uh, then ConvertKit, now Kit, and I'd never had a weekly deadline. Ever in my life. Writing books, you're like on year timelines. That's what's so hard for me is that, like, the deadline is always so far away. Yeah. And so having that weekly diet, I, I described it to my wife. I was like, why are you doing this to yourself?
And I was like, it's a Rocky movie. You know, the part where he's chasing chickens and stuff. Like I'm doing that right now. I'm in training. And I can tell you when I sat down to write this book, all those muscles were strong. All those muscles. I was like, I was like, it works. Right. Like I am writing as fast, like without a hard deadline, like the hundred days we gave ourselves for the first one, I'm writing as fast and as well as I've ever written in my career.
And I owe it to, I think that discipline of doing it every week.
Nathan Barry: And so now, as you're diving into the book or finishing the book, [00:54:00] like, are there other ways that having the weekly newsletter has served you? So it's built that muscle.
Jay Papasan: Well, I mean, you know, a lot of people do this. I'm, I'm pre writing ideas, right?
Uh, one of the things I want to do in the next two years is come out with the second edition of the one thing. And there were chapters we cut that I want to actually now I wish we hadn't. And there are new things we've learned. And I get to pre write those ideas multiple times. And find the right fit.
And then I think when I sit down, I'll just be pulling from the articles in the 20% er and going, what did I write about core values? And that's not in the book. We write about purpose. And purpose is hard to figure out. I can get your core values in 30 minutes. Um, the low hanging fruit. Everybody's looking at the next opportunity instead of looking farther out.
Like there's these things that we know. undo the one thing and like, I get to pre write them. Yeah.
Nathan Barry: So going back to the one thing, what do you think made it so successful of the, [00:55:00] like drove to, would you say 3. 6 million copies?
Jay Papasan: Yeah.
Nathan Barry: So that's
Jay Papasan: obviously a very broad question, but I'm, I don't know who else has done it, but I've been a part of 3 million copy bestsellers.
So, Body for Life is still, I heard from my old editor that in all editions worldwide it sold over 6 million copies. So, I hate saying that, it's like I was a high school football state champion, right? Before I even knew I wanted to be a writer, I had maybe my biggest success yet, but I'm counting on the one thing getting there.
But, um, I got to see that up close, the millionaire real estate agent became a million copy and then the one thing. And I think what all of them had in common. Is they presented a new perspective on an existing idea and they also caught a moment in time where people were receptive to it. And so the millionaire, I think the body for [00:56:00] life, he said, cardio is not how you burn fat.
It's weightlifting. And he was the first person to say that he might not have been the first. He was the first to write a big book about it. Right. Right. Right. Yeah, it's something that we widely accept now. And that changed the paradigm. Right. Millionaire real estate agent is, you don't have to be a salesperson, you can actually be a business person.
Mm hmm. Changed that paradigm. We have, uh, three agents in our ecosystem now, a franchise system. They're all independent contractors that are moving towards 100 million and one of them that's approaching a billion dollar valuation for the companies they built. Yes. I don't, that might've happened, but I feel like we accelerated this idea that these entrepreneurs would start thinking beyond selling the next house.
They built other businesses, it's not just selling real estate. But so, yeah, you can do that, and the one thing I think showed up a few years after smartphones became hugely prevalent with the iPhone. Like by the time, I think it launched in 2007? Uh, yeah, [00:57:00] 2007. So we came out April 1st of 2013, and by then, Almost every high school student had one, right?
And so now, when am I at school? When am I not at school? When am I at work? When am I at work? It's all blurred together. It's all blurred together, and people were feeling overwhelmed. And I think that was the zeitgeist. And people look up and go, One thing, well, tell me what that is. And I don't quite buy it.
Um, and I could go book by book, million copy bestseller, and tell you what I thought the zeitgeist that they tapped into. So I think you approach it like you're gonna write a copy that could sell forever a timeless book Right, and there's a little bit of luck if I'm honest. Yeah.
Nathan Barry: Yeah, there isn't everything but it's how do you increase that luck surface area?
Exactly. Yeah, and then now what you're doing is You're diving back into another creative project of like getting behind the mic on the podcast. Yeah. Yeah. On one hand, you're doing a bunch more things. On the other hand, it's probably another angle for you to refine these ideas and ties into your writing and a bunch of other things.
But talk about that.
Jay Papasan: [00:58:00] So when I look at my role in our company Productive, which is the one thing training and coaching, I should be at the top of the funnel. Not at the
Nathan Barry: back. Explain that a little bit more.
Jay Papasan: So, um, the number one reason we have that company is I co authored a book. It went out to millions of people.
And that book drives a lot of people to our website to become customers. The second biggest top of funnel thing we built was our podcast. And my co founder anchored it for the first seven years of the journey. And then when he left the company, we had a couple of interim. And it's not, it's just flat.
Right. And so when I look at the top of the funnel, like how can I, in the least amount of time, have the greatest impact and it also aligns, like I like this, like I'm enjoying talking to you. I get to get on my soapbox and talk about the things I'm passionate about and learn a lot. And so it's another thing I have to fit into my creative schedule.
But stepping behind the mic for the One Thing podcast allows me, the first time me or Gary has been the host of the show, to [00:59:00] Step into it and say, we're going to reset the bar about what these conversations should be. And so I feel like I know it's not an hour a week, you know, it's not an hour a week, but it kind of comes down to a couple of hours a week that you can batch and get creative.
I've got to build my calendar to support making that a habit so that I can find a rhythm. Because I know once I do, I am really good at the marathon. Tell me the training regimen and I will follow it. And if I, because I've just, that's so much of my success is those handful of habits that I just say, it's non negotiable now.
I'm going to do that thing. So I've just got to find that on the podcast and hopefully I don't get fired from it. I think I'll be okay.
Nathan Barry: So what is the breakdown in that company of, because you've got your conference events, there's masterminds. There's
Jay Papasan: no,
Nathan Barry: no.
Jay Papasan: So the one thing like you saw me last year, you were a huge help.
You looked at our SKUs and it's like, [01:00:00] dude, you need to one thing, business. Yes, you're right. And I will, um, kind of his advice to give the hardest advice to take. I know, I know. Cause you want to do all the things, right? So I think right now we start with the book and the podcast. Can we teach people the principles?
There's a certain number of them that say, I want to bring this to my work. And so we have one on one coaching. Uh, we have an annual event. It's usually, it's been a goal setting retreat for the first eight years. And this will be the last one next year. It'll be a one thing summit. Um, I may steal a few things from craft and commerce.
I like the design.
Nathan Barry: Yeah.
Jay Papasan: Right. But people want to hear more voices than just me and my wife talking about how we use the book to build our lives. Um, and then we're going to have group coaching that we'll launch and eventually a membership. So I streamlined it. I tried to make a flywheel, but like some things naturally follow.
Like if you have people in group coaching, the next logical step is do they want to be in a membership? Because that's where they get to practice at a lower cost and have a community around them. Those become the [01:01:00] stories that I hope to feature on the podcast. And then that will attract more people right into the training.
Nathan Barry: Well, that's something we talked about, uh, quite a bit. I guess. Was it just a year ago at the same event? Yes. Okay.
Jay Papasan: Uh, I had you, I had Dan Martel, I had Dr. Ben Hardy. Like I had like, oh yeah, yeah. We had a killer circle.
Nathan Barry: That was, yeah. That was a great time. Uh, but thinking about that, the, the flywheel of creating success stories and then featuring, uh, them back on the show, the newsletter is really, really good.
Because it, it drives towards your content. It reinforces this loop that like, Hey, we create success. And then if you put in the work as a student, as a member or whatever that is, you could also get this. credibility and notoriety of being featured, whether that's the, that they're actively thinking they want or not.
Jay Papasan: Or you might become one of our coaches. Right. Or like, I think, yeah, I do that. I can't remember [01:02:00] her name. You founded this podcast with that was like, I'm Rachel, Rachel. I was like, well, that's brilliant. Of course, that's where you groom the next people to go out and lead this. You develop all of your talent in there.
And there's a, yeah, there's an amazing flywheel. Three people on my team started in our community. So they were like true believers, like a job opening. I want to work here.
Nathan Barry: That is like, I talked to so many creators where they're like, I cannot hire someone for this business. I posted on all of these job boards and I just didn't get people who understood what I was doing and I, I just can't hire good people.
And I'm like, how many people are on your email list? They're like, Oh, 50, 000. And would you say those 50, 000 are excited about your content? Oh yeah. People love it. The other day this designer was emailing. What role are you hiring for a designer?
Go to your audience first to hire people.
Jay Papasan: I'm old enough to know Acres of Diamonds. Do you remember that old thing? It was like a self help book that got passed around when I was a kid, but it's about this [01:03:00] person that went out in the world to find their fortune only to find out that their backyard had Acres of Diamonds.
Don't have to buy the book now. That's it. But it's like, don't neglect to look like right in your, literally your own backyard. You, you're probably building the talent within your team or it's a referral away. Right.
Nathan Barry: Yeah. So I love that of. you know, broadly hiring for your audience is one thing. But then as people have taken, you know, your courses, your coaching become certified in your program, and then, you know, hiring them either as, as coaches or into other roles, then like you said, they're true believers.
They like absolutely love the mission, what you're about the community. And you're just not having to explain like why we do what we do.
Jay Papasan: It's like the ultimate cheat code. If you can build the environment to hire from, like, I think all businesses, if you can hire from within, it's just a beautiful thing.
Sometimes you do need to bring someone from the outside to bring new ideas and energy. But I [01:04:00] do love that in general.
Nathan Barry: That's awesome. Um, so just as we wrap up, I'm curious, where should people go if they want to follow all of your content? Subscribe to the newsletter. Obviously they have to have coffee with you in order to get on the friend's newsletter.
There we go. But for the, the, the general newsletter,
Jay Papasan: uh, if they go to jaypapasan. com, um, it links to the one thing, website, everything, my newsletters are there. I think I'm the only Jay Papasan among 8 billion people on earth. That's pretty impressive. So like from a business standpoint, right, it's great to have a weird name.
Um, I found out my friend Monroe Rayburn is launching his own practice. He's been like a therapist at a university for years. And I looked him up and I said, do you own MonroeRayburn. com? He goes, no. I was like, dude. There are no results except for some dead guy in Ireland 150
Nathan Barry: years ago.
Jay Papasan: I was like, that's gold for a business.
Oh yeah. Like, and it's like, people know your name. It's like, so jpapperson. com is kind of where all this stuff is. On the name thing.
Nathan Barry: Uh, as a creator, [01:05:00] you know, you don't choose your name, right? Right. You, that's, that's given to you. Oh, you know, people do, uh, change their name or, or change it slightly. Um, but I think about, who was it that kept emphasizing the D Matt D Smith, Matt
Jay Papasan: D Smith.
Yep. He's given on the podcast, Phil M Jones. You can take a generic name and add one letter
Nathan Barry: and make it findable. What Matt said is he's like. You have to put the D in there because otherwise it's a very generic name. And you're like, you can Google Matt Smith and you will never find me. Matt D. Smith, designer, you will find.
Uh, but I think about some of these people who have, you know, like James Clear, I'm like, you just have a really good name for writing a book that sells millions of copies. You know, it's like having a British accent and being a public speaker. It's just cheating. Unfair. But I think about the, like when I was getting started online, there was another Nathan Barry.
that had didn't dominate the search results, but he'd like written for wired and he'd done like not a [01:06:00] lot, but some. Yeah. And when I beat him out of the rankings, that was a really good thing. But I think of another friend, Justin Jackson, who, uh, like built a great online business. He, he owns transistor, which is the podcast hosting company that I use.
And, uh, built up this whole following. And then some high schooler named Justin Jackson had the nerve to go get drafted into the NBA. Yes. Like become a really great basketball star. And so these things that you like,
Jay Papasan: you can't control it anyway. No. Well, we started, I thought it was super innovative when we launched the one thing.
I put a hashtag on the cover and that was pretty early in the social like right there on the back. It had hashtag one thing. Well, we, it was awesome for me for just client discovery, right? I've met so many of our first clients by just following them on Instagram, reaching out. Do you want me to zoom in?
It wasn't zoom back then. You'll be Skype into your, [01:07:00] your company meeting. And, uh, I got to connect with a lot of people. Well, I think Shakira came out with the song. Yeah. And then there was a boy band that came out with a song called one thing, we're like all our third hashtag now, but it was a good idea.
Like, so if you want to do that, just build something that you think nobody will copy. Yeah. That's one problem that I have. So
Nathan Barry: with, uh, convert kit, if you put those two words together on the internet, you are talking about our company. If you say kit, you're going to be talking about a soccer jerseys, a lot of soccer jerseys.
You know, like we have at kit on pretty much every social handle. So it's like tag us if you want to reach out. Uh, but that is one thing that I was able to, like, before I could search people talking about ConvertKit who didn't want to tag us, you know, you could find that. So that I feel like in the name change, that's.
It's something that we're giving up and we're gaining a lot, but you know, well, don't be successful enough
Jay Papasan: that you dominate.
Nathan Barry: Yeah. There
Jay Papasan: you go.
Nathan Barry: All soccer jerseys. It's [01:08:00] only the number one sport in the world. Yeah. No big deal. Yeah. Sounds good. Well, Jay, thanks so much for coming on.
Jay Papasan: Thank you so much for having me.
I love this podcast. I am an actual fan. I'm a, I will be a three time ConvertKit user. Yeah. OwlKit user as well. So, just an example of what we were talking about. I love it.
Nathan Barry: If you enjoyed this episode, go to the YouTube channel. Just search BillionDollarCreator. And go ahead and subscribe. Make sure to like the video and drop a comment.
I'd love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were. And also who else we should have on the show.