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Career education is a vital pipeline to high demand jobs in the workforce. Students from all walks of life benefit from the opportunity to pursue their career education goals and find new employment opportunities. Join Dr. Jason Altmire, President and CEO of Career Education Colleges and Universities (CECU), as he discusses the issues and innovations affecting postsecondary career education. Twice monthly, he and his guests discuss politics, business, and current events impacting education and public policy.
Jason Altmire [00:00:00]:
Welcome to another edition of Career Education Report. I'm Jason Altmire. And we get a lot of requests to talk with academics and people who are affiliated with universities about workforce development and issues related to career education. We do talk to a lot of think tank people. Sometimes think tanks have a partisan affiliation to them, whereas academic research maybe has a different view. We have someone today who is uniquely positioned to talk about that, one of the leaders nationwide in talking about workforce development and career education. She's Michelle Van Noy and she's Director of the Education and Employment Research Center at the School of Management and Labor Relations at Rutgers in New Jersey. So Michelle, thank you for being with us.
Michelle Van Noy [00:00:55]:
Thank you. Thanks for having me, Jason. I appreciate it.
Jason Altmire [00:00:57]:
Maybe we could just start with you have tremendous experience as a researcher, but also just someone who speaks and is often quoted about these issues. Talk about what does the center do, the Education and Employment Research Center? What is the type of work and what's the focus of the institution?
Michelle Van Noy [00:01:17]:
So eerc, broadly speaking, we study that intersection between education and work. So, so all things related to that transition between schooling and work. We have focused on a lot of different issues over time looking at how educational institutions structure their programs to help students make decisions about majors and careers and get the skills they need to be successful in the workforce, how they engage with employers. We study students in terms of how they make decisions about what to study and how the programs affect them, looking at their outcomes after they've finished programs. We also try and understand the employer side of this dynamic as well. So we try and focus on a very broad set of issues. More recently there's been so much interest in alternative pathways to careers and so a lot of the work that we've been doing has been focusing on non credit education and non degree credentials just because of all the interest in that topic area.
Jason Altmire [00:02:14]:
Right now there's been such a sea change in the media in focusing on that very issue. It used to be the four year degree was the pathway that seemed to be the, the preferred way to go. And if a student chose a different route, that was in the past viewed as somehow a substandard choice or a choice that maybe others wouldn't have advised them to do. That is certainly not the case today and that is a very good thing. And the work that you do relates to all the things that you mentioned. Why does a student choose to go into a career pathway? How do they choose the type of school to pursue that educational endeavor? What's the relationship with employers on the other end as far as getting a job in their chosen field of study, and then outcomes, all of those are incredibly important issues. And you've looked at that. And I asked this to any institution that we talk to, whether it be private or publicly funded, but where does the funding come from?
Michelle Van Noy [00:03:12]:
For the center, we have a mix of funding sources. We work with private foundations that are interested in this topic area. We work with institutions if they're interested in funding, research and evaluation. Some of that work comes from the government. It's a variety of different sources.
Jason Altmire [00:03:30]:
Talk about when a student chooses, whether they be non traditional or even right out of high school, but a student chooses they're going to seek higher education alternatives in a career program. How do they make the determination of what type of program to go into? But maybe more to the point, what type of institution? How do they identify the setting that they're going to pursue that education?
Michelle Van Noy [00:03:55]:
Well, I think it's a complex set of factors and we've tried to understand some of this decision making process in the context of community college students and how they ended up in those institutions with the particular choices of programs that they have there. And a lot of it comes out of experiences that students have within their social networks, their friends, their families, other institutions are in. So if they're in high school, what they hear about there in terms of opportunities, a lot of it is very locally driven in terms of what they know about different educational institutions in their environment. So it's a complex set of things that drive students decision making. And in terms of what institution they select as well as what kind of program and career that they choose to.
Jason Altmire [00:04:39]:
Go into, is the long term outcome of the student's success after graduation. Have you found that there's a direct relationship between the choice that they make and the success they have have post graduation?
Michelle Van Noy [00:04:54]:
That's a great question. I don't know that we have the data to answer that by a type of institution because I, you know, I think that's certainly an area where more research would be, would be really helpful to understand different pathways and how they lead to where students are trying to get to in terms of programs. I do think there is more emerging data there in terms of variation by the type of program a student chooses. And you know, I think field of study as it is at the bachelor's degree level, it also is at the sub baccalaureate level that there is a great deal of variation in terms of outcomes by the field of study. And interestingly that also varies a bunch by the local geography. And so we did A literature review recently looking at outcomes from non credit, non degree credential programs and there's not a lot of data there. So I'll caution you that it's all very preliminary. There's a ton of work that needs to be done to really unpack and understand what's going on there.
Michelle Van Noy [00:05:47]:
But based on some of the emerging research that's out there, we tried to look across a lot of varied programs to try and make some conclusions. And you know, preliminarily we can say there are some modest outcomes to some of these shorter term non credit workforce programs. But there's a huge amount of variation across the field of study and also geography, which tells you that a lot of this is sort of locally determined. That to some extent there's something going on in local areas that's causing this, whether it be relationships between the educational providers and employers or whether it just the particular needs of different labor markets. There's something going on there that is.
Jason Altmire [00:06:21]:
Causing some variation, I would suspect. And I think research elsewhere and probably your own center has shown that the demand in the workforce is part of the reason. You see the high demand for different professions advertised, spoken about, you see it on tv. We need more nurses, we need more truck drivers, we need more technicians, we need more skilled workers in the trades all across, whether it be welding and electricians and all the rest. And I think if you're someone looking for a change for whatever reason, if you're non traditional student or even just starting your educational pathway, that will strike you as interesting because as I've seen you say, and, and the center says it on, even on your website, that generally the reason people seek higher education is they want to get a job on the other end of that. And if you know that there will be jobs available in that field, that's probably going to steer you in that direction. Is that something that you found?
Michelle Van Noy [00:07:25]:
Yeah, I mean, I think students are certainly drawn by career opportunities. You know, I think also looking for affordable options is an important draw for students as well, you know, and thinking about quicker ways to get to a good job. You know, I think, I think some of this is tricky because students also don't always know exactly what they want. So they're trying to figure this out too as they're going. So we see a mix of that too as students are trying out different things and there is a bit of a process of discovery that goes on as they take different programs and sort of see how different career paths fit for them and how they like that and how well, they do. So it is a process of discovery for students as well.
Jason Altmire [00:08:13]:
You have a significant ongoing research related to skilled technical workforce and STEM education. I think that's really important. Can you talk about that work that's being done?
Michelle Van Noy [00:08:25]:
Sure, yeah. No, that's great. I'm glad you referenced that. We're really close to having a very large report to be released on that topic. So we're going to have a lot to say on that. But I think, you know, one of the things that is, it is a very important topic. You know, we look at technicians and they're the people that get a lot of things done in a lot of important settings. You, manufacturing industry for.
Michelle Van Noy [00:08:45]:
For one, that's where some of our research has centered. You know, looking at, for example, actually a couple of sites that we looked at were Ohio and Arizona. A lot of work with the semiconductor industry and a lot of work from local colleges. These were set of community colleges we did some case studies with that were really working very closely with local employers to try and meet the needs of industries. And it's tricky. It's a bit of a dance because, you know, you've got big companies that are coming in, trying to start, you know, start things up. They're looking for a workforce. You know, colleges are trying to figure out how to respond, you know, respond fast to meet employer needs, but not too fast to have a bunch of students who are ready to work where their jobs aren't there yet.
Michelle Van Noy [00:09:25]:
So it is, you know, it's tricky to get that alignment right. But I do think that it is a, it is an interesting framework for educational institutions to think about. I mean, I think, you know, in this case, in the colleges we were looking at are, you know, sort of almost in this kind of intermediary role of trying to meet the needs of students, meet the needs of employers, but also think about the broader region and the needs of the broader region and the economic development needs and the health of the economy. So I think there is an interesting role for educational institutions in, you know, working with each other and working with other organizations within a region to try and, you know, foster that, that economic health for everybody.
Jason Altmire [00:10:10]:
And your work. While the center is based at Rutgers, which of course is in New Jersey, your work is not exclusive to New Jersey. Right. You take a national focus when you look at these issues.
Michelle Van Noy [00:10:23]:
Yes, we work, we work all over the country. I'd have to think about what that map would look like. But we have partners in many, many states all over the country.
Jason Altmire [00:10:32]:
I want to ask you about your one, one of your other projects, because you have several ongoing that I think are really interesting, relates to innovation at community colleges. And you have focused a lot of your work on community colleges and given your national scope, we've done other episodes talking about this issue, other parts of the country where states and legislatures have insisted upon different types of outcomes measurement to direct funding to community colleges based upon outcomes and so forth. But I think it's interesting that you've looked at innovation generally among community colleges and you know that that's been a topic of discussion. Some have done it well, some maybe not so much. What, what has been your experience with maybe places in the country where there's innovation examples that you'd like to point to or different ways of doing things that you think might be a direction in the future that you might see for other community colleges?
Michelle Van Noy [00:11:32]:
That's a great question. You know, I think about, you know, this question of innovation. It's a very broad set of topics and things that colleges could be doing in different ways. And you know, I think what we've just been interested in is sort of the processes that the colleges use to, to engage with employers. And so that's, that's one, that's one piece, you know, and again, trying to think about the economic development project that you refer to, you know, thinking about, you know, how to, how to come up with programs and courses and formats that are both responsive to employers and responsive to students. You've asked me a question which I feel like I need to think about a lot more because I'm trying to think of the first thing that one of the things that comes to mind, thinking about the economic development project, I'm thinking about Maricopa Community College, for example, and developing some very short term programs to train people for the semiconductor industry. And so having like a two week bootcamp kind of course to get people really up to speed to understand what it means to work in that industry at the same time also developing that program in a way that it could lead to academic credit should the student decide they want to pursue further education in that technical field. So I think that's, you know, that's an interesting example of getting something up and running fairly quickly that is both responsive to immediate employment needs and also longer term educational progression.
Michelle Van Noy [00:12:53]:
So that's one example I think of again, pulling from that project. Another example. I think looking at the schools that we worked with in Ohio, there was really a lot of coordination at the state level among the schools to try and think about how to respond to the potential of all the new jobs that would be created by intel moving into the state. It is hard for, you know, to get a lot of actors together to sort of say, this is one curriculum that we think is going to work, that we like and is responsive to industry needs. And so I know there was a lot of good work that was done also fairly quickly in Ohio to kind of get the colleges together and aligned around a curriculum. So I think, you know, these are some examples and there's probably many more we could point to.
Jason Altmire [00:13:31]:
Yeah, this is something that we have our association, of course, Career education colleges and universities. We have an employer engagement network where we align employer demand for the future with curriculums and help schools have that conversation with employers. And many of them are doing it anyway. But what you talked about, semiconductors, chips, manufacturing, clean energy, windmills and solar panels. When you think about auto technicians, a lot of people might have an outdated view of that job, you know, under the car with wrenches and screwdrivers, with grease pouring on them. That is not what it's all about now. It's com. It's computerized.
Jason Altmire [00:14:14]:
And anyone who's driven a car recently understands that's a very different skill set than maybe what went into that profession a decade ago or two decades ago. So how do you see employers working with institutions of higher education to align curriculums for jobs that are going to be available in the future, not jobs that were around 10 years ago, which is kind of the disconnect that exists sometimes in education?
Michelle Van Noy [00:14:41]:
Yeah, I mean, you do really need very active and ongoing engagement, meaningful engagement. So certainly, you know, going beyond the sort of stale advisory board meeting to a very actively sort of engaged set of employers that can give ongoing feedback on curriculum. You know, you even see. I mean, I think there's also, you know, we see folks from industry who teach sometimes, you know, even adjuncting is sort of a way to, you know, to bring in more of that expertise and, you know, sending out faculty, you know, into the field, into, you know, visiting it with employers, I think there's a lot more sort of interweaving of the two that is important for facilitating that kind of deep knowledge that you need to have. And it's interesting. I mean, I think, you know, thinking of some faculty who are super engaged and know their work really well can. Can actually play a very interesting role with industry. So, you know, industry can inform higher ed, but higher ed, you know, faculty also are lear learning from different employers and can also share information out with employers, too, in terms of Best practices that they see in terms of workflow and things like that.
Michelle Van Noy [00:15:42]:
So I think there's sort of an interesting intermediary role that colleges can play in that field of working and engaging with employers.
Jason Altmire [00:15:50]:
And we continue to hear anecdotally, but also you see it in the media where employers are disappointed that the pipeline to these high demand professions has not expanded to the degree where there are still thousands of job openings, where employers have the difficulty in finding a skilled workforce, people who have the training to do the job when they come in. And I mentioned many of those professions, truck driving, for example, 80,000 shortage of truck drivers. And I mentioned nursing and the healthcare programs and the skilled trades. What do you think, based upon your research, is the impediment that is allowing that situation to continue? Because I do think there's better public awareness of the problem. There's a better acceptance that those are great jobs, those are family sustaining wages that you can build a career upon. And people choose that direction in higher ed in a way that maybe they were discouraged from in the past, but yet we still hear this, this from employers, that there's not enough skilled workers to feel the jobs that are out there. Why? Why do you think there's a disconnect?
Michelle Van Noy [00:17:00]:
Well, okay, so I don't want to give you a less than 100 clear answer here, but I do think there's some variation that has to be looked into across field and across industry. And I think in some industries you might want to question how much of it is a skill shortage or how much of it is, you know, relating to the quality of the jobs. Certainly we've heard about that in truck driving, for example, that maybe the jobs are really hard and maybe the job, they don't pay as well as they used to. On the other hand, you know, nursing, for example, there are other reasons why the supply is constrained there. I've heard it's often hard to get nursing instructors and get clinical placements and things like that. So the programs are limited in terms of the number of students they can graduate. So that puts a constraint there. So I think in different fields there may be different things going on and it's important to try and unpack all of them rather than have sort of this broad, you know, narrative that, you know, may be true, but there are, I think there may be more nuanced things going on.
Michelle Van Noy [00:17:50]:
That's, that's industry specific, that is important to take a look at.
Jason Altmire [00:17:55]:
I would say to the degree we've had these conversations with others and just looked into These issues ourselves, you are correct. All of the things that you said are definitely factors that play on both sides of that. So I think there's a lot more work to be done on the employer side as well as on the education side to make that alignment.
Michelle Van Noy [00:18:15]:
Everybody wants one simple answer as opposed to, hey, things vary, we need to look deeper. But I mean, I think if you want to get to the root of some of the issues, you do need to kind of look at the particular issues that are going on, certainly by.
Jason Altmire [00:18:25]:
Industry and, and you've done a lot of work at the center focused mainly on these issues with community colleges. So I wanted to ask, given who our audience is and who our membership is, have you taken a look at for profit and private non profit career programs? And if not, why not? And if you have, what, what are your observations?
Michelle Van Noy [00:18:49]:
Well, I have it and not for lack of interest. I would certainly be open and willing and interested to learn more and to be engaged in research. You know, in this area. I think that I, my work does span a pretty broad range. When we look at things like the non degree credential quality field, for example. You know, one of the things we're trying to do there is really understand all the actors that are at play there, not just community colleges. I mean, it's true that I have done a lot of research with community colleges over the years. That is definitely an area of my expertise.
Michelle Van Noy [00:19:21]:
But I think that, you know, one of the things we recognize is that in this field there is a growing number of different organizations, providers that are there and some have been there for a very long time and others are, are newly emerging. And part of what we're trying to do is just understand that broad field and the dynamics there. So I would certainly welcome opportunities to learn more and to, to be engaged in research that would help us better understand the overall dynamics there. And you know, really I think the main thing we want to know in some ways is really like how do we better serve learners? How do we make sure that they're getting to the goals that they seek for themselves and how is this contributing to the local economy and to the needs of employers? So I'm very interested in looking at all those issues and trying to understand that broad landscape.
Jason Altmire [00:20:05]:
Well, we will continue that discussion offline, but appreciate that viewpoint. I wanted to ask in closing because we've covered so much and I know the work that you all are doing is incredibly comprehensive and a lot of ongoing studies maybe that you're working on that you want to talk about is There anything else that you have going on there that you wanted to touch on?
Michelle Van Noy [00:20:28]:
I think one of the things that's been a really important part of our work just to emphasize is that the need for data, and I think that's especially in all these newly emerging areas, is just if we want to know those outcomes that we all care about, we really need to emphasize and prioritize collecting good data and being transparent about it. And so I think that sort of understanding the data helps us get to those research questions that we care about. But I just realized that data is not always easy. So we're doing a lot of work with states right now that are trying to build up their data systems and think about how do you measure what a quality credential is and how do we know who's in non credit programs? And it takes a lot of work. So I think for institutions to invest in that, it's hard, you know, and we see that, you know, it's hard for colleges, it's hard for states, but it's, it's, it's an important investment. If we care about looking at these questions that we want to research, we want to understand, we want to know what outcomes are. And you know, it's that foundation of the data that is super important. Even though it can be costly and time consuming and tedious and difficult, it's that important foundation that needs to be laid.
Michelle Van Noy [00:21:35]:
So I think that's any one message, I think, is that for, you know, for institutions to think about investing in that because it is important and it does help us answer questions that are really important for the field.
Jason Altmire [00:21:45]:
We agree completely. And data is one of the reasons that the public policy discussion relating to for profit schools has turned around a little bit. Because now you have data and you can compare schools and you can see outcomes and compare a trade school that might be for profit to the outcomes of a community college that's offering the same program. And you couldn't do that 10 years ago, at least not as easily as you can today. And it's also one of the reasons we would be greatly concerned if the Department of Education decimates that data collection effort. Being able to make those outcomes comparisons, we think that's really, really important.
Michelle Van Noy [00:22:23]:
Yeah, that's true. There is definitely a lot of uncertainty about the future of data that we've come to rely on. Like I said, we've been doing a lot of work with states, but you know, yeah, there's, you know, I don't know how that that's going to fill in the gap. But there is a lot, a lot that we need to know.
Jason Altmire [00:22:41]:
If somebody wanted to get in touch with you, Michelle and learn more about your work or the work of the center, how would they find you?
Michelle Van Noy [00:22:48]:
To find out more about our work, folks can go to our website at smlr rutgers.edu eerc and they can join our mailing list there or drop me an email. I'm happy to connect and share our work.
Jason Altmire [00:23:01]:
Our guest today has been Michelle Van Noy. She is Director of the Education and Employment Research center at the School of Management and labor at Rutgers. Michelle, thank you for being with us.
Michelle Van Noy [00:23:13]:
Thank you Jason for having me. I appreciate it.
Jason Altmire [00:23:23]:
Thanks for joining me for this episode of the Career Education Report. Subscribe and rate us on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. For more information visit our website at career.org and follow us on Twitter @CECUED That's C-E-C-U-E-D. Thank you for listening.