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The Build a Vibrant Culture Podcast brings together amazing leaders, entrepreneurs, and experts to share the successes, challenges, and secrets to living and leading as a VIBRANT Leader.
Tune-in each week as Nicole Greer interviews a new Vibrant Leader.
Email her at nicole@vibrantculture.com
Nicole x Josh - Made with Clipchamp
Nicole Greer: [00:00:00] Welcome everybody to the Build a Vibrant Culture podcast. This is Nicole Greer and they call me The Vibrant Coach. And today I have another amazing, vibrant guest who shines out there in the world and his name is Josh Kwasny. Let me tell you all about him. Josh is a collaborative team member, insightful teacher, and an engaging speaker.
With a passion for helping organizations thrive, he has been working with individuals and teams in both the for profit and non profit sectors for more than 20 years, bringing order to chaos. Hello, do you have chaos? You need Josh. And he wants to help you cultivate, don't miss this, a healthy culture, aka a vibrant culture.
He draws from a diverse vocational background, including teaching, construction, sales, coaching, and management. As the vice president of operations at a manufacturing company, Josh was introduced to the Entrepreneurial Operating System, EOS, and he was struck by how EOS [00:01:00] uses simple proven tools to bring organizational clarity and to get everyone on the same page.
He was so impacted by the EOS that he became a full time EOS Implementer. Josh now focuses his efforts on teaching, facilitating, and coaching leadership teams to get what they want from their businesses. And what do you want? Success? Money? Peace? Freedom? All these things are possible. So he's a native of the Chicagoland area and for those of you who have listened to some, I think, you know, I love my New York's and my Chicago's and my LA's and my Miami's and all my big places.
So, um, go to Chicago people. Josh now resides in North Carolina, where he enjoys time with his family and community, and he likes building things. He is passionate about baseball and loves a well told story. Welcome to the show, Josh.
Josh Kwasny: Thanks, Nicole. So good to be here.
Nicole Greer: Yeah, I'm glad to have you. Yeah, so, uh, I'm collecting definitions of leadership.
So what's your definition of [00:02:00] leadership?
Josh Kwasny: Well, I think, um, I don't know if it's simple, but maybe an image that I heard one time, and I don't know who to give credit for this, but, um, I would say it this way. If no one is following you, you are not a leader. You're just someone taking a walk. And I think that's the definition, are people following?
And so leaders have followers. And I think that the essential part is, are there other people following you? And that's what makes leaders, leaders ultimately.
Nicole Greer: Yeah. Yeah. And, and I tell you, if we have a choice, we'll not follow, right? I mean, you know, if you're not doing a great job, uh, with your leadership.
So I'm curious, you know, these leaders who have followers. What skill sets do you think that they have that make them successful and what might, might they be missing if nobody's following?
Josh Kwasny: Yeah, well, it's interesting. I think oftentimes leadership and management are intertwined and actually they couldn't be any more different. In the work that I do on a day to day basis with EOS, we teach our managers and [00:03:00] leaders that they're very distinct.
And so, you know, leadership is more of a “on the business” type of thing, whereas management is an in the business or in the organization type of thing. Leadership's about clear direction, whereas management is about setting expectations. Leadership is all about going forward and creating an opening behind you, whereas management is about communicating what it takes to fill that opening.
Leadership's like thinking and, you know, management is doing. So I think the skills of a leader are very, very different than the skills of a manager, but they tend to, I don't know if you've seen this as you've worked with so many businesses and individuals that I think they put the two together and they couldn't be more different.
Would you agree with that?
Nicole Greer: I would, I would. I think that, um, you know, a lot, well, I agree and yes, and I'm trying to do improv these days, totally trying to do improv. So, uh, I think that a lot of people have to put both hats on.
Josh Kwasny: Absolutely. Yeah.
Nicole Greer: Especially the smaller your business.
Josh Kwasny: Absolutely. And I think that's why it's all intertwined. But I think to understand when you are leading and when you are managing is a very helpful thing. So [00:04:00] we actually teach practices for a leader and practices for a manager. So I could, I could share a couple of those. Um,
Nicole Greer: Yeah, do it.
Josh Kwasny: Really there's, there's five leadership practices and then five for managers.
I'll focus on leaders. So, one I mentioned already is leaders give clear direction, right? So they know where they're going. Um, they know what path they're on and it's clear. So vision is always this big thing, we talk about vision, but leaders have a clear vision and so they know where they're going and they give that direction.
Like, here we go. This is the hill, or this is the beach we're heading to or whatever. I think secondly, they provide tools to people. Good leaders give them the tools to do their work, right? And, you know, resources, training, technology, whatever they need. I think third, they actually, um, let go of the vine.
This is something we love to talk about great leaders. Um, and this is hard, but they might've started something. And like you said, like when you're, especially a small business, small [00:05:00] organization, it's everything's you. And they have a very hard time and I can, we can, we can bring us into this. We have a very hard time with letting go of the vine, with actually delegating. But great leaders are great delegators, because they continue to move forward,
and they're creating this great wake behind them as people that fill in that gap. I think fourth, we talk about, um, in EOS and I love this, is that great leaders act with a greater good in mind, right? They have a thing bigger than themselves. I think that's the, what you're talking about is like the people we get to choose who we follow, hopefully, and we don't choose the ego one who's all about themselves.
We, we choose someone who, you know, she or he is, um, thinking about something big, people follow purpose. They don't follow people, um, they follow a purpose that they're following. Right. And then I think the last thing is, and this is when we teach, actually a tool, is great leaders will from time to time, take what we call a clarity break.
They will take space [00:06:00] away from the day to day, the management side, and they will think about the organization. They will think about the business. They will think about their team and just take an empty piece of paper and a pen and go think on the business, think on the organization. And I think those are, those are five practices that if you cultivate, I think you could be a great leader. And I really believe, um, people think, and it's maybe because there's so much on YouTube and everywhere else that there's a profile to a leader. Like, you know, you're kind of born a leader, like, Nicole, you were just born a great leader. It's like, no,
Nicole Greer: Well, that is true everybody.
Josh Kwasny: Well, I mean, everybody, maybe everybody else struggles then, but being born a great leader is a myth. You might have personality traits that lend yourself to leadership, but everybody. We say, if you have two things, if you actually love people, like you want, you care about people and you want to be great, like growing and learning, you can be a great leader.
And I think that's [00:07:00] such an encouraging thing. That's why these are practices that I'll teach and lead people through. They're not just abilities you go find, and if you don't pass the test, you have to go somewhere else.
Nicole Greer: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. So let's just, let's just go back to number 1, because we could just do a whole hour on number 1.
Josh Kwasny: That's true.
Nicole Greer: So leaders, leaders have a vision and they have a direction. And I think that, um, you got to share it, too. That, that's the biggest part, right? So I think a lot of leaders, like they got it in their head. And oftentimes one of the things they forget is what are we doing? What is it that we're doing?
Josh Kwasny: That's right. Oh my goodness. You're so onto it because one of the, one of the things that we see over and over again is, actually great leaders and particularly visionary type leaders who are really 30,000 feet all the time that are really thinking high level. They think they're communicating the vision all the time when they're not.
In fact, I have a funny story. A client of mine some years ago. We teach six things that you need to be strong in, and one of them is in vision. [00:08:00] And this, uh, we have a way of helping them to assess how strong they are in each of them. And this leader, particularly the visionary, was convinced that the strongest they would be of the six things was vision.
And as they handed it to the rest of the company, guess what the weakest one was? Vision. Because again, sharing it, you are right on sharing it and being creative and thinking about it, you know, multiple, multiple times. We believe seven times before you actually heard it the first time. And so if you're just giving a, uh, you know, once a year motivational speech, that's seven years before they heard it. You're doing it quarterly, it's a year and a half before they heard it. So you're spot on. We've got to communicate it over and over and over again. Cause everybody wants to share.
Nicole Greer: So just for those who are on the planet who haven't heard of EOS yet. So there's, there's some folks out there like, what's that? Um, there's a book called Traction and it's by Gino Wickman.
And so will you talk a little bit about EOS? Because I think one of the best [00:09:00] things in that book and I, you know, I give that book away like crazy and talk about it with all my clients. Um, and Josh and I are going to coordinate efforts here. Um, but you know, you need, like, some documentation along the way of, like, where you're going.
And one of the things I love so much is the VTO in Traction, which is the vision traction organizer. So will you talk a little bit about the book and Gino and the tools that are in this book? Because I think it's fantastic.
Josh Kwasny: Yeah. I, you know, this, this, um, book that Gino gave to the world and now, uh, as implementers about 800 of us around the world.
So you should be able to find one in your area to help. But this book was really just based on a discovery that every entrepreneurial leader, they wrestle with hundreds of things all the time, just simultaneously. It's that chaos, right? And, the good news is that has Gino worked with leadership teams, um, for, for years, as he developed EOS, he found it's really just six things that you need to be strong in.
If you can, [00:10:00] if you just and that's good news, right? I can handle six things. 600 things is overwhelming anxiety producing. So, those six things real quickly vision, right? Vision, like we just said, it's being 100 percent of the same page with where you're going and how you're going to get there. Vision is key.
You got to be strong there. You got to be strong with people, right? The people component is getting the right people for your organization. There's no such thing as this right people that you can just go out and find. You have to find them that fit your particular culture and want to go on that vision journey with you.
So right people, um, so people component, we got to strengthen them. Third is data. We've got to run the business on facts, figures, right? Not subjective ego and emotion. That's what tend to run, especially the entrepreneurs in the world. It got us there, but probably won't continue us on the journey. Then you need to be really, really great at solving issues.
So that's the fourth component. We talk about the issue solving where we've got to actually have a list of those issues, and then we've got to learn how to solve them. And then you have [00:11:00] the process component, right? Maybe not the, the, the most, um, the, the sexiest, but process. Oh my goodness. If you can systemize, and I love this, I find I have to repeat.
That's right. And what's funny is like, I keep coming up with quotes and then I forget to attribute people to them. So I'm sorry if I'm doing this, but
Nicole Greer: That's okay. Everybody Google what he's about to say.
Josh Kwasny: Yeah, that's right. No, I actually have this one. So the founder of The Four Seasons said this, “Systemize the predictable so that you can humanize the exceptional.”
And that is so powerful. Like, like put the things on repeat. So that you can like, when you're building this vibrant culture that you're talking about that you help people think you've got to have the exceptional that comes in and you're gonna have to deal with. But if everything's always an exception, it's herding cats.
But if you can put some things on repeat, then you actually have the bandwidth to focus. And that's what the process components all about. And then last, definitely not least, this is where the title comes from Traction is the traction component. This is discipline and [00:12:00] accountability. So you actually execute.
Gino will say it this way. Vision without traction is hallucination. You know, so we, I just, my world is to help people live in the real world, not to live in a fantasy world. And the sad part is, and I'm sure you see this many, um, you know, many great visions die to death of poor execution. And we want to see these great visions come to fruition, I mean, there's opportunity when these things happen.
And so clearly, you can see, I get a little passionate about that. It might be my Midwestern speed of talking, but it's also just passion over those six things. So EOS is all about that. Really helping people strengthen those and the one that you said the VTO and I love that you remember that, right? Some of my clients take some time to remember to touch these things all the time.
I love it, but it's vision and Traction in one page so often we do these three to five Um, year strategic initiatives and plans and their binders and they're [00:13:00] all cool and look impressive, but we don't follow them. And so the VTO is eight questions that when you put those together as a leadership team and roll that out to your team and they get on board, it's clear where we're going.
The vision side, the traction side is our plan to get there. And in two pieces of paper, um, you can save paper and print on both sides, but there you have your vision and that's the VTO and that's the, that's the…
Nicole Greer: And it's cost saving. Don't miss that.
Josh Kwasny: Yeah, absolutely. That's right. So that's it. I mean, that's, that's the VTO and a quick overview of that.
And really EOS, if you boil it down is simple tools. We want to, we want to teach people to, when they have one of these issues to work on and strengthen, what tool do you need to get better and better at that? That's what we want.
Nicole Greer: Yeah, absolutely. And so if you're curious and you're already Googling, uh, you can go to EOSworldwide.com/josh-kwasny. Let me spell that crazy Kwasny for you. K W A S N Y.
Josh Kwasny: Nope, just a Y. [00:14:00] Just a Y, no E.
Nicole Greer: Did I say E?
Josh Kwasny: Everybody does. Everybody does, Nicole.
Nicole Greer: Because it says knee, so there's E. Right. But it's Josh hyphen K W A S N Y. There I got it.
Josh Kwasny: You got it.
Nicole Greer: And here's the thing I also love about all of the things that EOS provides. It's like you can download all the tools. You can read the book. You can try it, do it yourself, or you can get Josh's help. So, you know, you can do it either way. Now, the thing that I think is like where the rubber meets the road on this whole EOS thing is this deal about accountability. So, Josh, everywhere I go, you know, whispering in corners, I'm coaching new people one on one.
Executives are talking to me and they're like, nobody's accountable. And I'm like, well, you just kind of got to decide that what we're going to do is accountability. And, and so how, how does EOS, or how do you as a EOS, um, [00:15:00] implementer, or how do you hold people accountable? Because I think people need a good example.
Maybe they've never worked for anybody that really toed the line on accountability. What do you, what are your thoughts about that?
Josh Kwasny: Great question. And I, you know, I think, so one of the, one of the things that EOS implementers do is we work specifically with the leadership team because we believe as the leadership team goes, so goes the rest of the organization, right?
And so if we're going to have an accountable organization, it starts with the leader. And so my role with that leadership team is to teach them and hold them accountable to using the tools first on themselves and the organization and then roll that thing out. And so accountability starts with the leaders opening it up and being accountable first to themselves and then to everyone.
And so we have something called an accountability chart. So I know it'll look, you'll download the tool and you're like, this looks like an org chart. Well, it's very different from an org chart. I say org charts are about titles and egos, [00:16:00] right? That's org charts. Who seems to be the most important.
Well, accountability charts are about functions and roles. It's about how the team plays. All the functions moving well together for the greater good of the organization. And so starting with that, getting all of that clearly articulated with crystal clarity around roles and what it means to be successful, that opens up the idea of accountability. People talk about wanting accountability, but you'll find out once you start exposing what you're holding them accountable for, if they really want accountability.
Um, there's a story I heard from another implementer that really, and hopefully this doesn't offend because I don't mean to put people in these categories, but I'll share the story. He talks about accountability is like turning on a light. And when you're at home and you turn on the light and you have a puppy, what does a puppy want to do?
A puppy wants to play, right? You turn on the light. No matter what time of day or night it is, a puppy is ready to play when the light goes on. And accountability is like that. Like, bring it. I love it. Tell me what [00:17:00] the rules are. I love this. Let's play. Let's play. Well, cockroaches don't respond the same way to the light.
And again, that's where some, I don't mean to pit them like that against each other, but I kind of do, because it just means people that you necessarily don't want to go where you want to go. And if you want an accountable organization, when you turn on that light, no amount of coercion is going to help them enjoy the light.
They want the darkness. They want to be out of the light. And it always, that image is helpful for me because it's like, who doesn't want the puppies, right? Who doesn't want the ones that respond? But oftentimes, what do we do? Put all our energy on the ones as leaders trying to turn cockroaches in the puppies, trying to change someone's, they don't want to go.
And we don't have magic wands. So how are we going to do that? Well, let's focus on making these puppies into these wonderful, wonderful employees and partners and people within the organization. So yeah. I don't know if that image helps, but that's the image of accountability for me. Turn on the light.
Nicole Greer: Everybody's going to remember. Yeah. So cockroaches into cocker spaniels.
Josh Kwasny: Oh, there you go. That's even [00:18:00] better. That's right! Good.
Nicole Greer: Yeah.
Josh Kwasny: That's a book. That's a book somewhere. That's a book title.
Nicole Greer: Okay. All right. Well, it's my title.
Josh Kwasny: Yeah, you had it. You can have it. I'll write the chapter. Happy to help.
Nicole Greer: Well, you know, here's the thing.
I just, uh, well, a lot of times back to, you know, offending people. So I'll go there, too. And then we'll both be in trouble or we'll both people will think we're funny either way.
Josh Kwasny: Thank you for sharing that with me. That's nice. Don't leave me by myself.
Nicole Greer: Yes, right. I will. I won't leave you hanging. I never do. So, uh, a lot of times I'll go give an HR talk about recruiting and hiring the right people. And so, you know, I, I tell people, make sure you know what you're looking for. You know, you're looking for an eagle, not a turkey. So I talk about eagles and turkeys, but it's the same thing.
Josh Kwasny: Equal opportunity offense. That's good.
Nicole Greer: That's right. But, the truth of the matter is eagles love to be held accountable.
In fact, they're the, they're the kind of people that are like, Josh, you asked me to get this done. I got it done early. Here's a triplicate. And I made [00:19:00] a, I made a 3d model for you and Josh is like, wow. Yeah. And, and you're like, Nicole, you're an eagle. And I'm like, I know! And so then I'm like, what else do you need me to do?
Um, and these are the folks that like, if you get them inside of a company where hello, EOS is going on, that company is going to grow, first of all. I'm going to ask you that question once I can hang, hold that thought, but then if it grows, you're going to need some eagles who are ready to take on more accountability.
And then if we did have an official org chart, I bet that they would go up the official org chart as well, right? They would get promoted because they're doing eagle work. They're doing cocker spaniel work. This is really important.
Josh Kwasny: Yeah. And really, I think it's not even, um, that they're going up being promoted, climbing the ladder.
Cause I, again, I think that's the org chart mindset. Like the higher I am, the more significant I am. I think the slight adjustment I'd make is they'd find the seat, that's great for them. And they would, because it's on the, because it's on the accountability chart, so clear. These are the things you need to be to sit in that seat.[00:20:00]
Now they have something to shoot at. They know how to be trained. They know what they need to do to show up and you're going to have eagles or turkeys, or you might call them superstars versus rock stars. These are people who love what they do and they're good. Some people don't want to advance. They're more rock stars.
Like, let me be the best plumber in the world and I'm going to knock it out of the park every day. And then you have the superstars that were like, give me more, give me more, give me more. Both of them are fantastic in building a culture, but the culture is one where it's clear, it's accountable. We know what it means.
One of the worst things we can do is expect something and not tell them right back to the communicating vision. Same thing with accountability. You've got to communicate that this is what it means to be part of our company as a culture. And this is what it means to do well in your job when you're sitting in your seat.
And those are critical and a loving thing to do. I think it's loving to give clarity to people, right? Give clarity to people and then they can choose or choose not. [00:21:00] Oftentimes we don't give what we want to do. Go ahead. What do you want to do? But they don't really know what they could do. And so that's what a clear accountability chart and accountability ultimately will do. Let those eagles soar, right?
Nicole Greer: That's exactly right. Yeah. And you know, and then, you know, the little box on the accountability chart, it just gets longer and longer and longer and longer, you know, or they take on more, maybe they start delegating things off to other people who are younger eagles or eagles newer to the company or something like that.
Uh, but the other thing I think is so important that I think everybody listening has probably in their career at some point had this thing, especially if you're an eagle. Especially if you're a superstar, especially if you're a cocker spaniel. Is everybody keeping up? Especially if you're a superstar. So, uh, if you're one of these hardworking people, we'll just call them, uh, you know, you get what's called job description creep.
You know, like when you got hired, you got a job description, but it's kind of like maybe Josh and I have the same [00:22:00] job title, um, but then, you know, Josh is much more user friendly than me and he works a little harder and he has a smile on his face and I don't or whatever. Um, you know, he's that, he's that, uh, superstar, uh, he, you know. My leaders can be like, Hey Josh, will you do this for me?
And Josh is like, Oh, of course, have it done today, you know? And then before you know it, Josh has a job description, which is, you know, I think these things started in the fifties. Um, and, and it's way outdated. It's like ten years old. I don't do any of this stuff anymore. So I think the accountability chart also fixes that problem.
Josh Kwasny: It absolutely does. In fact, there's, um, there's a book that, uh, recently came out from US Worldwide, just called People. Dare to Build an Intentional Culture is the subtitle, which I love, right? And I would just put it vibrantly intentional culture, right? That's ultimately it.
Nicole Greer: Yeah.
Josh Kwasny: And, and they have this great illustration in the book called the, we call it GWC flow. So what we say is, for you [00:23:00] to be, once you have that accountability chart, you've got to get it, that's the G, you've got to be wired for this job, the specific job. You got to want that job, not just want a job, but you got to want that one.
And then you have to have the learned ability, the capacity, that's the C to do it. But they have this, there's a chart in the book that's been very helpful that I've been helping my teams think about where you need to be in that flow. And what you're describing is there's times when more is required of you in the job, but you don't have the skills.
And you're, you're stressed, right? So you need to get the skills trained and get it back in that flow, GWC. And there are times when you have excess skills, and not enough challenge in the job and you get bored.
Nicole Greer: Bored to death.
Josh Kwasny: That's it. And so the job of a great leader, a great manager is to constantly help the employee and their partners in business to make sure they're in flow.
So we got, there needs to be enough challenge and enough, um, uh, ability and you know, we just need to help people find that. And there's no right [00:24:00] flow. There's just the flow for you for what's required of the job. But yeah. Otherwise what you just do is all of a sudden you fake it till you make it, right?
Like some people just like “fake it till you make it.” But meanwhile, stress is just going up, going up, going up. You don't have the ability, but you have enough ability to fake it for a while, but pretty soon implosion. Um, and so what we need to do is…
Nicole Greer: And they call that burn out.
Josh Kwasny: Burn out, that's what it is, that's where you end up. And so the job of a great leader is to pay attention.
So they're not like great, great high capacity person. Give them more and burn them out. And at the same time going, I don't want to overwhelm them. They were bored. It is a dynamic that's all about leadership and management. And, uh, I just that's a helpful image for me to say, we're going to keep them in the flow.
And that means it's a dynamic and it's always a conversation. I think leaders are aware of what's going on around them.
Nicole Greer: Yeah, yeah. And so that's making me think about a program that I do training on called Employee Performance Management. You know, you've got to sit down with your people and talk to them about their performance.
And so a lot of times people think: Oh, you know, am I in trouble? [00:25:00] And, you know, really though, if you have people that get it, want it, and have the capacity, or you're going to sit down to help them get the capacity to do it. Um, they love that conversation, you know, coming up, I think all the jobs I ever had, Josh, I had like one company that like got that, you know. But the rest of the time I was like, I used to run restaurants and apartment communities and like, they'd be like, here's the key to the restaurant, good luck. And here's the key to the apartment community, good luck. And I'd be like, okay. You know, and since I'm a eagle and a cocker spaniel and a rock star, I did okay.
But, uh, but I think a lot of people, um, we fail them because we're not checking in on them. I love the GWC concept for sure. So that's another tool that's downloadable. You can go again to Josh's website, eosworldwide.com/josh-kwasny K. W. A. S. N.Y. Got it right that time and, uh, get that tool from over there.
Yeah. So I think that [00:26:00] is, uh, fantastic. So this is a clear direction. So I only got to vision and we went all down all those paths, which was amazing, but I think we hit on the right people, but you want cocker spaniel, superstars, and rock stars. Uh, but what do you mean by right people? We've heard the whole get the right people on the bus thing before.
Um, what do you mean by the right people? I have an inkling, but I want to hear what you have to say.
Josh Kwasny: Yeah. So of course you got to give credit where credit's due. That's Jim Collins, right? Right people on the bus. And, so what we like to teach and train people to do is think about “right people” are people who fit your culture and right seats are people who can do the job and you need both of them.
You can't settle. And so, um, the right person and we just use core values for that, right? So we articulate core values and then hold folks to those core values. So they know they're the right person. Instead of me saying, Nicole, you know, it's just not working out right. I just don't know if it's a good fit.
What if I can tell you, well, you know, [00:27:00] getting it done is one of our core values and you just don't seem to be wired that way, and it's not one of yours. So why don't we find you a place where that is a place you can thrive? Because. When you’re describing your core values, you're not describing good people or bad people.
You're just describing your people. And so if you can be super clear that this is what it means to be a right person, here's our three to seven core values. And people might be rolling their eyes right now because when they hear core values, they work for a company that was on the wall and a banner, and it was all done by a great marketing company, and it looks cool, but didn't mean anything.
You know, it was like, we're honest. And then everybody's lying. You know, it's like, no, you're not. You're lying. Like that's your core value. You're liars. But, the fact is, but we have it on the wall, but yeah, fibbing. Um, but if you, if you can articulate honestly who you are, not what you want to be when you grow up, but who you really are as a culture, then you can communicate to people, is this you, does this resonate with you?
And so when we do that, that makes a right person. And then someone in the right seat executes the [00:28:00] job and we simply can't settle. So you can have right people who can't get their job done. Well, we got to coach them in or help them find a different place. And the same way, maybe worse. At least I've experienced this to be worse.
People who are in the right seat, they're nailing the scorecard. They're hitting their numbers, but they're killing the culture.
Nicole Greer: Right. Technician, technician, right.
Josh Kwasny: Yeah. And they're killing your culture. And so we have to do both. So we say those are both important, but there are two different things.
And I will see teams having a right seat conversation when it's a right person issue. Well, let's move them somewhere else. It's like, no, no, no matter where they go, they do this thing. And it's like, you're not going to train them to be a different value. You're going to find that value. You're going to articulate that value.
So if you're having the wrong discussion and then you're firing somebody and saying, and they're confused. Talk about unloving again. Hey, we're letting you go. You just, you're not hitting your numbers. Like, yes, I am. No, the real issue is the cultural fit and you need to be able to articulate that.
So, yeah, that's how we think about our core value [00:29:00] culture fit.
Nicole Greer: Yeah. Yeah. And so, um, I think you guys call it the people analyzer. Do I have my story right?
Josh Kwasny: You have it right. I always joke that that is like the least warm and fuzzy tool title ever. Hey, we want to put you through the people analyzer, but it is a way in sort of black and white to see on a piece of paper, whether you're at below or above the bar.
And it's not, I tell my teams, we're teaching you tools. Tools can be used as weapons, but they're tools. It's not a weapon to try to find somebody to get off the island. It is a tool by which to communicate, coach up, or ultimately maybe have to help them find something else. But yep, the people analyzer is the tool.
Nicole Greer: So I'm going to give you an example, everybody, if I may. May I do that?
Josh Kwasny: Yeah, please.
Nicole Greer: Talk about an example. So one of the companies that I work with, one of their core values is if you see something, say something. So it's a little bit like the airport, you know, you're in the airport and they're like, if you see anything suspicious, please don't hesitate to report, [00:30:00] you know, whatever.
Um, so the reason being is because this is a manufacturing facility and they're like, you know, even if you don't work in shipping, but you see something and you're like, whoa, wait a minute, that should not be happening. You need to say something. So long story short, there was a lady that worked at the front desk at this manufacturing facility.
And she was the most lovely person. Like you walked in, she's always greeting you, big smile on her face. You know, she's like the mom, you know, of the company, you know, she's awesome. And, um, and so, uh, apparently I heard this from HR that they said that, um, she had gone and went on a little errand with a note.
Somebody had called and it was urgent. So she's running through the facility and she saw somebody on a forklift with flip flops on. And she had been through safety training, as everybody should go through safety training, whether you drive the forklift or not, you should understand what's going around in your surroundings.
And so she, um, [00:31:00] you know, waved down the forklift driver and said, oh, excuse me, um, you have on the wrong shoes. And so they were like, what is she doing telling me about my shoes? And she's like, I saw something and so I'm saying something. I'm worried about your safety, I wish you would find some different shoes to put on.
And so like this story went through the whole place that like, she really is our mom. She's telling us what shoes to wear, but I love that story because, um, the core values either mean something or they don't, you know? And so she, and so on the people analyzer, uh, she'd get a plus.
Josh Kwasny: Yes, absolutely.
Nicole Greer: Because she's stepping out courageously going, where are your tennis shoes or whatever?
Josh Kwasny: That's right.
Nicole Greer: And those steel toed boots or whatever they are.
Josh Kwasny: Yeah, well, and I think you illustrate the other point you were making before about communicating to people the vision and who we are. It's the same thing. We got to constantly keep before us who we are and you tell those stories as a way, okay, see something, [00:32:00] say something.
That's our core value. It's not like, and then, and then go do it. Let me give you an example of how that works. Here, here she is, and you know it. And it's just a way to encourage someone because people want to be the right people. And we tend to reward and recognize people based on their productivity, which is great, but we don't reward and recognize people for being the right person.
And so telling that story is laud and honor for her because she truly is one of us. In fact, she's leading the charge.
Nicole Greer: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and the, the great story is, is like this young man went up to HR and said, I need shoes because she told me I couldn't.
Josh Kwasny: Perfect.
Nicole Greer: And that's how they found out. But I mean, I just think that's just a wonderful, wonderful example, um, of like people. And I love that it's about hitting the numbers and, and we're all about, in the EOS and in the interaction, we're all about data points, like you said. Um, and so there's like a company scorecard, right?
Josh Kwasny: Yeah, absolutely. One of the most [00:33:00] maddening things, maybe it's just me, but it's playing a game. I don't know the rules and don't know when it's over. Don't know when I will win, right? And so a scorecard is all about giving clarity again, again clarity, uh, to people to know what it looks like on a weekly basis, whether or not they're, they're winning, winning the week.
And so oftentimes I think when people punch the clock alone, they're saying, okay, I went and did work, but was it a good day? Well, I don't know. I feel good. But if you can say, here's the measurable, here's, here's the number that you keep on track. That's your job. And if you keep that on track everyone, the whole company, is affected by that.
Oh, you can. I mean, talk about employee engagement. You know, everybody wants employee engagement. We'll give a number. Help them understand what it looks like to win. And, um, when you have a scorecard on teams that everybody's playing and understand what it means to do that, you not only have clarity for what you need to do, you will see what's not working.
And you can improve it. So yeah, scorecard has so many facets of help, but again, putting those things in facts and [00:34:00] figures instead of ego emotion. I mean, I want to trust my gut, but I don't know if it's bad Chinese food, right? Like sometimes it's just my wrong decision because my gut is telling me this.
Well, if I have some data, that's going to help me understand what's going on.
Nicole Greer: Right. 100%. Yeah. So, um, the six things that EOS looks at vision, people, um, and then data. We just talked about that. And then, okay. So issues. Okay. Solve issues.
Josh Kwasny: You don't have any, Nicole. Don't worry about it.
Nicole Greer: Oh, I've got, I've got a list. My therapist. No, I don't have a therapist. I need a therapist. Do I need a therapist?
Josh Kwasny: We all do. We all do. Yes, we all do.
Nicole Greer: Counselor, coach, preacher, friend, something. So, uh, solving issues. So, you know, here's the thing, uh, I will go work with a company. And as you know, you and I, we talked about what we do. I do so much training and executive coaching, but like, again, this, like it's Groundhog Day. The same issue keeps coming back around and coming back around and it's like, uh, you know, this is, this is not a good strategy in [00:35:00] business.
Um, although I believe in all three of these things, so you can wish, you can hope, and you can pray, but you probably have to like to meet the day and meet the issue head on. So, um, so, how do you solve issues in EOS? Like what's the, you guys got some magic you could share? Like a tip or something?
Josh Kwasny: Yeah, I mean, everybody get your pens ready.
You know, this is super, super fun. It's unbelievable. We call it IDS. And it stands for identify, discuss, and solve. You're like, wow, really? You're like, thanks, Josh. Well, how does that work? Well, it's, it's a very simple tool and, and here's what we've learned. So as we, you know, many teams get together and you just described it, they just discuss everything.
It's just discuss, discuss, discuss. Okay, we ran out of time. Let's table that. Bring it back. Um, or they try some sort of solve and come back. What we've learned is when you have, when you start to solve an issue, the first and most important thing is that you identify what's really going on. So [00:36:00] you've got to dig down.
Typically, what's on your issues list, right? And we can go back to our therapist again. Like there's a symptom that's going on. I'm not feeling well about this or I'm thinking about this. What does a good therapist do just like a great team would do? Continue to ask great questions to get down to the bottom.
What's really going on? I often use this illustration with my clients. You know, a fight in the warehouse is a symptom. Something's going on underneath there. Why did they fight? Did someone call someone a name? You know, someone a name, was there something they didn't like? What was going on? And as you dig down and identify another great quote, don't know where to attribute, but an issue well defined is half solved.
So I think many people struggle to solve their issues because they're talking about the symptoms. So we go round and around with speculative ideas and we're still not really sure what we're talking about. Yeah. And so let's get down to what the real issue is. Let's spend the conversation there and then let's go around the table.
So the discuss part of IDS, and this is, I think, really critical [00:37:00] too, is it's one time around the table. We don't get louder and say it again and again, because someone didn't agree with us. That's called politicking, right? We take the politics out. Lord knows we need to take politics out so we don't politic around the table.
We share what we're thinking as a leadership team. We fight well for the greater good. And then we, once it becomes redundant, we make a decision, we take some action items. And what's great about that is then that issue is solved. It really is, because when you come back and that to do you check in on that to do the next week in your meetings, because we believe in weekly accountability when you have to do that, if it didn't fix it, guess what comes back not the same issue, but a much more specific issue that we've uncovered.
And so you actually get down to the root, even if it takes a couple “to do’s” is to get there. And I think that's the brilliance. It's just simple to identify, discuss, solve, but don't go through them rotely. Dig down, discuss it, and then put some [00:38:00] action to it. You know, don't do paralysis of analysis, get to an issue, solve it and move on.
Um, and I just see teams, sometimes they're going to solve one issue in a meeting because it's just a big hairy issue that you got to pull apart like an onion, all the layers. But then sometimes there are 12, 13, 14, 15 issues because they're really getting to it, taking ownership of it, having great healthy conflict within a meeting where they're actually sharing their ideas, not just their opinions, but their ideas and listening to each other.
And then they can solve. And a team that knows how to solve their issues. Watch out. They can do a whole lot. And it's a beautiful thing when people can do it. And here's what's really important. I want to say this because I think this often gets missed. We're talking about leaders and leadership. That is not just the job of the leadership team.
The job of the leadership team is to teach all their people how to do that as close to the issue as possible. So everybody learns how to I. D. S. I said, wouldn't it be a wonderful day? I'm saying to these leaders, executives, wouldn't it be a wonderful day if something broke and it got fixed and you never knew about it?
And of course, some people who haven't [00:39:00] let go of the vine, like we talked about earlier, they go, no, no, I want to know everything and true leaders will say, oh my goodness, would that be a beautiful day when I can just trust that things are getting solved and they're not all bubbling off to the team.
So IDS is a simple, but really powerful tool.
Nicole Greer: Yeah. And what you're talking about there about having, having the confidence that your people know how to solve problems is what, uh, Dan Sullivan, who is another genius, he's called strategic coach, um, but he calls that a self managing company.
Josh Kwasny: Yes, that's what we want.
Nicole Greer: I have empowered people. Yeah. And so, you know, I can really take a vacation. I can really turn off my phone and know that whoever's hanging around is going to make it happen. So that's fantastic. All right. So the next one on here, hold on one, two, three, four, five process. Okay. So I'll just say this about process is that if you don't have it written down, nobody knows what to do if you're not there.
Josh Kwasny: Simple. That's right. That's right. Yeah, yeah. Process. So oftentimes, I mean, it is [00:40:00] the first tool we teach is just a simple way of documenting it. You're, you're spot on. The first thing we got to do is document it. And I think the documenting piece is we've got to first simplify it.
So we take a high level approach. We just, we believe document, this is when it comes to, especially when we're talking about process component, we start with the core business processes like HR, sales, marketing, operations, the main things that sort of run once you're franchising documents that if you simplify it, you put the 20 percent to get you 80 percent of the way.
They're the major steps. Right. Simplified. And then we believe that that represents something that you can actually follow because you do it a hundred percent. You end up with a big old 800 page employee manual that no one's going to follow because I'm never going to open it. So what we want to do is not only write it down, but write it down with the basic, simple, what absolutely needs to happen in order to produce the results we want.
And then we don't put it on a shelf and just take it out when we need it. What we do is we pay attention to it because as things [00:41:00] change, people change, markets change, we got to make sure that process is still producing the results. So that's why it's a key component. It's constantly things that you need to pay attention to because ultimately you don't want to just write them down and feel great that you got your binder or your, you know, your one drive, but you want to be following…
Nicole Greer: A thousand page document, right?
Josh Kwasny: Yeah, but, you know, process people love it. Like, look at all our cool processes. But, uh, the second question would be, are they being followed by everyone and are the people, do the people know where to find that process so the people know how to do it. And so when you simplify documents and then actually train and manage people around that.
Wow, now you have systems in place by which you can then go to those humanization of the exceptional things that come out.
Nicole Greer: Yeah, and, and, uh, you know, going back to, uh, issues just for a moment, solving issues, I would say a lot of the time I don't have a percent a lot of the time when you find an issue. Oh, well, he does it that way and I do it that way, and I thought we were doing it that way.
Josh Kwasny: That's right. Wait a second. Is [00:42:00] there even a way?
Nicole Greer: Right, right.
Josh Kwasny: I actually know of an implementer. Uh, one of my implementer, friends was telling me about another one. So this is like secondhand, but it's true. Um, he puts, uh, around the table during a session with clients.
We work full days with sessions. Around the table. He puts a sign in one of the seats and it's process. And so when they get to issue solving, just like what you said, he'll say, well, you know, what do you, what do you think process, what's process perspective on that? What does the process say? And turns and looks at the chair.
And it's like, sometimes it's like, uh, we don't have a process. Other times it's like, you're right. What is the process? Let's open it back up. Okay. But you're, it's a key part of the business and oftentimes you're right. We either don't have it, it doesn't work, or there's 14 of them going on and we don't have any consistency.
Nicole Greer: That's the problem. Yeah, that's right. And I like my process better than your process, right? So yeah, so I'll tell you a fun one about that. So, uh, I have a client over in Kentucky and they own, listen to [00:43:00] this, 42 convenience stores. This thing never goes to bed, never has a holiday off. It is the biggest thing ever.
This company, but they, it's in the hills of Kentucky. And so they sell fried chicken. And so the problem was, if you went to this particular location, you got May's fried chicken. If you went to that, you got Justina's fried chicken. If you went over here, you got Bill's fried chicken.
But if I travel that same highway, I want the chicken I like. And so talk about process. So it was this big hullabaloo about chicken. We put everybody who makes chicken in a room and we said, write down your process, your recipe, right? And then we, then we said, okay. This is how we're going to make chicken.
And you know what happened when we took this recipe, that recipe, and that recipe and put it all together? We got the best dang recipe. It was crazy because [00:44:00] this one was just the right amount of spices. And this one was just the right amount of crunchiness. And this one was just the right amount of moisture.
Yeah. I mean, anyway. Process.
Josh Kwasny: That's exactly right. Process. I mean, you're talking about food now. Food is serious business, Nicole, like absolutely, right? I know. Don't let's stop talking about this, but yes, that's a perfect illustration of the power of process. You get a consistent thing that people can count on and everybody knows how to participate. Man, talk about again getting to a great culture.
What if that's part of the keys to having a great culture?
Nicole Greer: Yeah, and the thing is too is that you know as they're doing that this was about how the chicken tasted but at the end of the day food cost, prep times, you know, storage. You got to be safe with the chicken, too. Safety. It was a whole thing. So, uh, yeah, process.
I love the thing about the chair. I love it. I'm going to steal that shamelessly. Everybody put that in your pocket. Set that at the table. Process. Okay. And then finally, last thing with just a few minutes left on the clock. If [00:45:00] you did all this vision, people, data, solving issues, process, you would get this thing called traction.
You would execute. You would get traction.
Josh Kwasny: Yeah, and actually, I would, I would even say traction isn't just the result. It actually is one of the key components to work on because you can have all those and miss and so the traction component is all about what are the tools to continue? Um, they're all related as you can already see, it's all related into a system.
That's what we call it The Entrepreneur Operating System, it's the way of all those parts that harmonize the business. But traction is its own component because there's a couple of tools that you use to actually get traction. One that is critical is that you live in a 90 day world. We talk about this living in a 90 day world.
For some reason, we've been made as people. Humans struggle to go much beyond 90 days and focusing on one thing. But we just, we don't have the capability of getting much past that. I joke that I got 73, 74 days [00:46:00] or before my rope starts coming undone, you know, when I'm focused. And so if we can, uh, part of discipline and accountability is realizing the limitation of human energy.
And doing it 90 days at a time. This is where the quarter comes from, right? The quarter, it's not just a financial thing, but we 90 day blocks at a time. And so teaching people a tool of using rocks, Stephen Covey, right? It's a Stephen Covey thing that we would have rocks, these business priorities, and then our individual priorities within our departments, and as a member of the leadership team, or just as a member of the team, is that we would then focus on living this 90 day world. That we would have our heads down working every 90 days or so, we take a break as a team and we look back and see what did we do these last 90 days? What did we learn? Check our vision, make sure that's on the same page.
We're still, it doesn't take long, a couple degrees and you're going to a different destination. So reset that vision. And then go back with new rocks for the next 90 days. So that actually is a tool. Traction will come by actually [00:47:00] living within your means, which is living in that 90 day world. And then the other tool we teach in there is, is there the idea of having a good meeting?
Like in that we call it the meeting pulse, right? And we use a tool called The Level 10 Meeting. But the meeting pulses, I say, it's just like your heart. You want it to beat the right amount of times. Too fast? Not so good. Too slow? Also not so good. We need the right meeting pulse to connect as leaders to drive the discipline and accountability.
So you're right. It is a result of those things, but it also is its own discipline that we need to focus on getting traction. Right. Traction actually is a key component of the business and we use tools to get there.
Nicole Greer: Well, I know everybody is like, I'm going to go get this book. I'm going to call Josh. So get ready for your phone to start ringing.
Uh, I love that. So is there one little final nugget you would leave our listeners with, you know, you're like, okay, so all of that, but here's the thing. What, you know…
Josh Kwasny: The thing, just one thing. So I [00:48:00] think lately, one of the things that I've been thinking about, there's a lot of the things, you know, and I think, um, this is why I'm so appreciative of the work you do of, of just this, even just this podcast of people being able to come and interact and learn.
Um, one of the things that I think maybe circling all the way back to leadership is that curiosity is a trait that I think is lost. You know, leaders are all about, I've got to give direction. I gotta be the person saying this thing. You know, I gotta keep, I gotta keep up my image and I've got to lead and, you know, work all these hours.
But I just think one of the things that I've been working on in my own life and helping my teams work on is curiosity. You know, asking more questions than making statements. I think great leaders, great companies are curious. And I really think great humans are curious, right? Where they, you know, it's been so fun to just to be able to talk about, you know, fill in your curiosity of what's going on.
And I think people will benefit from that. Well, if you can flip that right, just be curious about what's going [00:49:00] on. You can lead better because you can understand your surroundings. You can understand the surrounding you're in, even just in, from your perspective, by being curious. So, um, curiosity, I mean, if there's one thing that I want to be, um, curiosity doesn't kill the cat, you know, curiosity makes you be a great, great leader and ultimately a great human. So thanks for your curiosity today. You're just illustrating it the entire time. So I'm really grateful.
Nicole Greer: It's my pleasure. All right, everybody. That's an hour with Josh, which isn't enough time, but anyways, maybe he'll come back and play with us some more, but, uh, here's how you can find Josh.
He's at eosworldwide.com/josh-kwansy. Let me spell it right. K W A S N Y. Uh, check him out, go to his little website. He's over on the LinkedIn. He's everywhere. So Josh, thank you so much for being on the Build a Vibrant Culture podcast.
Josh Kwasny: Absolutely. A pleasure. Thanks, Nicole. It was fun to be here.
Nicole Greer: You're welcome. All right, everybody go down, leave us a comment, give us a thumbs up. [00:50:00] Uh, share this with a friend. We appreciate you so much.