Bloodline Part 1 - Will Wight - Progression Fantasy Book - Anime in Book Form

This week, we go back to Cradle, Side Questers. We are on the ninth book in Will Wight's Cradle series, Bloodline. And it gets a little spicy.  Frankly, it's embarrassing. But only for Jonathan.

ABOUT THE BOOK

In Bloodline (Cradle Book 9) by Will Wight, Lindon returns to Sacred Valley to evacuate his family and villagers before the Wandering Titan Dreadgod destroys the area. Although he possesses great power, an ancient curse limits his abilities, complicating his efforts as he encounters resistant villagers and strained family relationships.


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Reading is the ultimate side quest. Side Quest is a casual book club podcast full of literary adventures. Join Slava and Jonathan as they discuss the books they are reading, life, history, belief systems, and much more. Explore world-building, characters, and story development—and share some laughs along the way.

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Creators and Guests

Host

Jonathan

Host

Slava

What is The Side Quest Book Club Podcast?

If you’re a reader looking for something deeper or an indie author working on your book, The Side Quest Book Club is for you. We skip the usual book reviews and ratings. Each episode turns fun side quests into real lessons, so you’ll leave not just entertained, but with a better understanding of why storytelling matters.

[SLAVA]
Nope. You can't say nope after every time I say something. That's not how this works.

I mean, I'm not offended by it, but that's just f***ing, you know, ignorant. And I don't care if people agree with me or don't. It's fun.

I'm doing this because it's fun. I love debating this stuff. That's it.

You're done. You're good. We have now moved forward.

And I think the majority of people who are not sociopaths and have some sort of, you know, emotional IQ. So like six people in America? And seeing him fight and seeing him show restraint in the fight and seeing him caring for Yaron and seeing him executing the whole thing.

I thought it was absolutely well done. A plus.

[JONATHAN]
Will, are you okay? You good, bro? You got family like this?

You can tell us.

[SLAVA]
You're right what you know. The best lives with the best money and the best family has dark nights of the soul.

[JONATHAN]
Coming to you from an endless library where every book is read and every spoiler discussed. Join us as we dig into the lives of fictional people who cannot defend themselves. This is the SideQuest Book Club.

We are back full circle, stepping into Sacred Valley where Linden has the opportunity to go revisit his early stage bullies, I guess I'll say. And the people who put pressure on him and his family and the revelations of how they've been acting since he left.

[SLAVA]
Oh, they're the same.

[JONATHAN]
Nothing changed. Well, it got worse, I feel like.

[SLAVA]
Yeah. And Douchebag's got a douchebag.

[JONATHAN]
Yeah. We're going to cover the first half of the book this episode like we normally do. A few hot points.

Slava and I were arguing over texts earlier this week. For the second chapter, I think it was with...

[SLAVA]
Yeah, where Dodgy gets low-keyed into the ground.

[JONATHAN]
Yes. And then another thing that happened for me is I don't... I have thoughts on this, but I'm going to say I don't know why, but chapter six, when we go back to Orthos in the middle of a fight, I think that might be Cradle's best written chapter through 12 books.

I get emotional with that chapter every time. And we'll dive into more of that as we go. But first, if you can give us a quick overview, Slava, of the plot for Bloodline, Cradle, book nine.

[SLAVA]
Yeah. Really quick, full spoilers. We're going to cover the whole book in the next two episodes and then the recap episodes per usual.

With the squad. Having to have the squad back. With the squad.

So you've been warned, full spoilers ahead. As the Abaddon retreat from the Mad King's assault, leaving Cradle vulnerable, Linden and his team return to Sacred Valley to save its inhabitants from the approaching Wandering Titan. The evacuation proves difficult.

The Valley's suppression fields drains the team's power and the locals, including Linden's family, are stubborn and treacherous, forcing the team to subjugate them to ensure their survival. Raegon Shen complicates matters by waking the Bleeding Phoenix to distract the Monarchs. While the Monarchs engage the Phoenix, Linden's team fights the Titan alone.

To save them, Jara sacrifices his personality to create a massive illusion that tricks the Titan into retreating. In the aftermath, Linden advances to Overlord, establishes the Twin Star Sect, and discovers a key in the Ancestor's Tomb linked to the origin of the Dread Gods. And that is book nine, which I want to say is my favorite thus far.

I think Ghostwater can fight for that place too. The first book, of course, that got me into this series was great. I like Ghostwater a lot and this one is taking first place for now, unless I find that books 10 through 12 are even more interesting and fascinating.

But yeah, what are you doing over there?

[JONATHAN]
I'm just getting a little quick bump of cradle.

[SLAVA]
Is that cool? You and your book sniffing. You gotta stop.

Okay, so here's the thing. No, tell us the thing.

[JONATHAN]
Scent is like the memory. Scent triggers memory. The noggin, right?

So when we smell something, nostalgia kicks in. And there is nothing in what I've seen in my short 38 years of life, or whatever it is, that is more powerful than nostalgia. Billions of dollars are paid toward nostalgia every year.

So if I want to enjoy myself and remember what it was like to go to the Scholastic Book Fair, or open a pack of Pokemon cards, or like Magic the Gathering cards, by taking a book, you can't tell me you don't do this. And smelling that fresh, don't make fun of me, that fresh book scent, that fresh published scent. Now, it's probably petroleum or something, whatever books are made out of, besides paper, like the ink and the whatever, right?

[SLAVA]
No, petroleum. That's what the books are made of. They're made from oil.

[JONATHAN]
The fake leather and the inks and things like that, whatever. Drop it in the comments. I don't care.

But I get my own little bump of nostalgia when I sniff these books. Now, you can call me what they used to call me in school, book sniffer. And it would be right.

[SLAVA]
The book sniffer. Jonathan the book sniffer. Well, I agree with you part way.

I do enjoy the smell of a fresh book. Sometimes I enjoy the smell of an old book. Each one brings different memories.

[JONATHAN]
That's like the buffet, right? Like walk into an old bookstore, and you go to one of those 1500s, and you go, man, I can basically smell King Richard V on that one.

[SLAVA]
Okay, Alice. If you know, you know.

[JONATHAN]
Do you guys, here's the thing, real talk, do you guys smell your books when you open them? Constantly.

[SLAVA]
Everybody smells books. The question you're asking is that they walk around the house and all of a sudden get a hankering for a book smell, and just you go around your own library sniffing.

[JONATHAN]
Here's the thing. Other people do it. I'm just willing to be honest about it.

[SLAVA]
Everybody does it. You just do it in a very weird way.

[JONATHAN]
I just do it on the internet. Maybe that's like a sub channel that we can start, is just me sniffing each of the books.

[SLAVA]
An ASMR channel where you just sniff books and ruffle the pages.

[JONATHAN]
Don't ruffle the pages. I will turn them quietly, you know, ASMR quietly, right? But don't ruffle them.

Don't dog ear them.

[SLAVA]
Oh, don't dog ear anything.

[JONATHAN]
Respect.

[SLAVA]
Respect. Like the creaking that the new leather books make, that could be an ASMR thing.

[JONATHAN]
Yeah. I'm telling you. Anyway.

[SLAVA]
Bloodline.

[JONATHAN]
Will, please don't hate me for sniffing your books, or whatever.

[SLAVA]
Or whatever. This is...

[JONATHAN]
Before I went on my little nostalgia kick, you said that Bloodline is your favorite in the series so far.

[SLAVA]
Yeah, it's definitely taken first place. It's written well. There's a lot of action.

There's a lot of tension, more so than action. There's tension in the book. You're taken back to Douche Valley with all the idiots that live there.

You could feel the frustration that Linden and Yeren have. And they're trying to hold back and not just obliterate these people. So that tension, Linden having to go back to his shitty family and shitty clan and shitty valley.

[JONATHAN]
So the only one who's shitty in his family that I really feel like is his dad. We'll get into that. It's fine.

[SLAVA]
Sure. Whatever. They're all shitty.

They're all different shades of shitty. Some are more shittier than others. The only people I kind of feel sorry for are the prisoners of the school, whatever the hell the school's name is, every damn time we talk about this book or the series.

I forget the stupid name of the school. Heaven's Glory School? Heaven's Glory.

Thank you. The only people I feel bad for is maybe, not maybe, definitely the prisoners and maybe Jialong's sister. Other than that, I don't care about any of those people.

They're just shitty, horrible, vile people.

[JONATHAN]
Jialong and Jialong's sister. We've not seen them in a minute. Just Jialong's sister.

And I don't feel like they get enough play in the series. Um, first off. Secondly, Jialong is about to go on a new character arc that you have not seen yet.

It's a romance character arc.

[SLAVA]
Oh, hold up. Wait a minute. Oh, no, no, it's fine.

I don't care if it's Jialong going on a romantic character arc. That by itself is fine. But because you bring it up, it's going to be with somebody we met.

It's not like he meets a girl in Douche Valley and runs away with her.

[JONATHAN]
Yeah, you're not getting a new character. Right, right, right. So who do you think it'll be?

[SLAVA]
Oh, gosh. Mercy? No, it can't be Mercy.

Akura would never allow that.

[JONATHAN]
They would never allow a lowborn like him who has a face like a snake that he has to cover up because he's so hideous.

[SLAVA]
So it's not Mercy. It can't be Yeren. You can tell me.

[JONATHAN]
No, Mercy's not Yeren.

[SLAVA]
Okay, good.

[JONATHAN]
It's Weishi Kelza.

[SLAVA]
Oh, oh, okay. All right. Now, that is interesting.

[JONATHAN]
It's going to be, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's coming, which will be fun. But honestly, Jialong kind of got burned by Will.

Like, granted, he's got a sprinkling of what Daji has, which is might makes right, right? That's a constant thing we talk about in this series.

[SLAVA]
Yeah, Daji.

[JONATHAN]
I need to be stronger and no one can fight for us. Now, granted, we've seen Jialong get burned by his clan, but there's also people that we've been following around, like Linden, who are like, I just have to get stronger. I literally don't have time to carry these burdens of grudges.

[SLAVA]
Yep.

[JONATHAN]
I just have to get stronger.

[SLAVA]
Well, in a world that makes sense, and we'll get into it with Daji in a little bit here, but in world, the things that happen in this book and in other books in this series, it makes sense. And we had JT explain the world, explain the genre and what Will's doing with it. We don't have to rehash it here.

Go listen to those episodes. They're usually, not usually, they're always the final episode of each Cradle book with JT and Spencer and Casey, but we already hashed out what the genre is all about. So in world, Jialong, he might be an asshole, even in world, by those standards, but what he does makes sense.

[JONATHAN]
Yeah. And the thing is, he's not really that big of an a-hole. He's just trying to protect his sister.

[SLAVA]
Right.

[JONATHAN]
That's it. We see that. Will lets us get in on the inside scoop on that.

And you can't fault him for that. And he's- No. Is he make the right decisions every time?

No, but we have additional information he doesn't have. Right? Yeah.

Like, we even see that he's going to turn down Linden in helping him get out of the Cradle.

[SLAVA]
Well, they all do. He goes, meh, you know, I'm proud.

[JONATHAN]
But Jialong's different. Like, Jialong fought with Linden. Like, Linden helped his sister.

[SLAVA]
Cut his arm off.

[JONATHAN]
And yeah. Yeah. I mean, Linden helped make him, right?

In the way that- Oh, there's this- I don't know what this is from. It might be from Doctor Who or something like that. But it's the- I gotta look it up.

It's like, men are forged in fire, and it's the privilege of lesser men to light the spark or light the flame or something. It's great. Let me- I just have to- Just one second.

It's a really great line. Good men are forged in fire. It is the privilege of lesser men to light the flame.

[SLAVA]
All right. I'll take it. It's a good line.

[JONATHAN]
I- Yeah, I like it. I found it when I was going through a pretty difficult time.

[SLAVA]
Yeah. Well, you lit my flame. So I am eternally grateful.

[JONATHAN]
Yeah, yeah. Okay.

[SLAVA]
Under douche.

[JONATHAN]
Yep. There. I'll send you the little link there.

[SLAVA]
Cool.

[JONATHAN]
It's this old rustic kind of looking cowboy buddy. Cowboy boy. Old grizzled man.

White gray hair in the background. It's like sparks of a bonfire kicking up. It's great.

Anyway, Jialong did that. The thing is, Jialong didn't have to be a lesser man. Once his clan leader died, he could have made different choices.

But again, he's making the best choice he can for his sister, who has been partially healed by- Correct. Yeah, by Linden and Little Blue. Which is great for her.

She's still not back to her normal power. But she also has some sort of little spirit animal thing too now, which is a little dragon. So a little pink dragon.

[SLAVA]
Yeah, that's fun. What I found fun, and I know we're jumping around, but you sparked a memory of me reading this book. When you said, we know something that Jialong doesn't or some of the characters don't.

[JONATHAN]
Yeah.

[SLAVA]
I found it interesting, and I'm glad that Will did this. It's just a great little bit. Is Yaren doesn't realize why her master died until this book, even though we get the answer last book.

Right. I was like, oh, that's really cool. That's a nice way of adding a little bit of flavor to the story.

Because we get Yaren processing going, oh, this is it. And then her having to hold back not to murder a bunch of Jades, which I found a little weird. Because in world...

[JONATHAN]
Why is that weird? This is going to get into the dodgy conversation. Why is that weird?

[SLAVA]
Because in world, who cares? They're just Jades. Now, I know Yaren is a good character.

She's not like the douches of Sacred Valley. She's not going to go wantonly killing people. But the frustration that all of them feel while Sacred Valley people are accusing them of trying to take over, refusing any help, being uncooperative, just being horrendous people.

I think without murdering them, they could have exercised their authority. Ha ha. If you read the book, you know.

And just said, all right, douchebags, we're going. So I know why Will did it, or at least I suspect. And I'm pretty confident in my suspicion.

[JONATHAN]
You're going to add him in the comments?

[SLAVA]
To draw out the story. So it's not just a 100-page book where they come in, they bop everybody in the head, knock them out, and transport them. Yeah, I get it.

And we have to see how horrible these pieces of shit in this Sacred Valley are. So I'm not as frustrated as some people on Reddit are. Because I went to the Abaddon Reddit.

[JONATHAN]
I'm sure you did.

[SLAVA]
And there was a lot of people going back and forth in a thread about how they should have just killed everybody for these people. And I'm like, yeah, I get it. I understand the sentiment.

[JONATHAN]
And you also said the same thing to me in text.

[SLAVA]
Only about dodgy, not about everybody.

[JONATHAN]
This is exactly what I'm talking about, though. Do you think that you become the better man by kicking a bunch of toddlers in the face?

[SLAVA]
Here's where we disagree. No.

[JONATHAN]
No, you don't. And that's the power difference.

[SLAVA]
Your assessment of dodgy is so far off. Nope. I have notes.

[JONATHAN]
Nope, nope.

[SLAVA]
I have notes.

[JONATHAN]
Okay, pull out your receipts, bro.

[SLAVA]
I thought it through.

[JONATHAN]
Okay, yeah.

[SLAVA]
I thought it through.

[JONATHAN]
Okay, great.

[SLAVA]
And yesterday, I sat down and wrote out a response. Because I was thinking about you saying that, and you said, your position on this is fascinating, Slava. And I'm like, well, your position is fascinating to me.

Because I don't understand. We're so polite to each other. So...

[JONATHAN]
I just want to understand.

[SLAVA]
Let's set it up. Let's set it up. I want to...

Okay. I want to read to the audience your text. And I'm going to respond to the specific words in those texts.

So...

[JONATHAN]
Okay, so before you read that, let's just... Let's reset the scene for a second. Yes.

So we're... Bloodline.

[SLAVA]
Yep.

[JONATHAN]
Chapter two. Dodgy is in chains. Mercy is having character growth arc where she has to inflict and flex the authority of justice of the Ikora clan.

She's uncomfortable with that. She goes after the father first. And he's like, I did it.

I did it. I did it. And she's like, you literally just didn't.

You're just spouting off nonsense. Yep. The helper...

Was it Mira? Someone? Whatever her name is.

[SLAVA]
Someone like that, yeah.

[JONATHAN]
Doesn't matter. She's like, I know who did it. You know, just literally just...

I think Will's like... And then she doesn't... She just...

What does he say? He tilts her head towards him.

[SLAVA]
Yeah.

[JONATHAN]
Which I was like...

[SLAVA]
That guy.

[JONATHAN]
Man. Right there. I know who did it.

[SLAVA]
Yeah.

[JONATHAN]
Because she's also in chains. And then we have Dodgy. Okay, so Dodgy is...

As far as we know, guilty of this crime. And he's like, well, I didn't do it. It's just a tarnishment of my name.

It was blah, blah, blah. And then Mercy is like, I'm going to give you just one chance to admit this. And he doesn't.

And she's like, okay. So then it sounds like it's simply a duel. Or it's simply like a tarnishment of names between two sacred artists.

Yep. And the Ikura clan will allow the results of the fight to be the judgment. And he's like, it even says that he will take his one scrap to try.

But Mercy knows that Linden's power level is astronomically better. And larger and more powerful than Dodgy. By streaks of the imagination.

It's not even funny. It's embarrassing.

[SLAVA]
And here's where I think you're wrong.

[JONATHAN]
I'm not done. It's embarrassing. That it's like malice coming to fight Linden in book one.

That's how embarrassed. It's like, well, that was not great. And it makes malice look even worse.

And the thing is, we're not supposed to see Linden this way. This is not who he is as Will's. I'm almost done.

I promise. Who Will has shown us for him to be. And Linden's like, okay, we'll do this.

But I tried to spare you. And he's like, well, I don't have my swords. Okay, your swords are really going to make the difference here, buddy.

That was funny. So he gives him his swords. And then Linden just decimates him.

It's literally like taking the toddler and just bamming them around. Okay. All right.

[SLAVA]
All right. Yeah, great. Here's what I'm responding to.

So in an official debate, this is a little bit unfair. Because you already said you had your opening statement in text. And that's what I'm going to respond to.

[JONATHAN]
But the people aren't in our text.

[SLAVA]
So I'm about to read them. So here it is.

[JONATHAN]
All right. And I wrote some notes. Can you guys be the judges for us?

I just want you guys to be the Abaddon for a second. You commenters, you are our audience. Who won this battle?

Slava versus Jonathan. Okay. Go.

Sorry. I'm all right.

[SLAVA]
You keep doing it. And you're failing the debate.

[JONATHAN]
One more protocol.

[SLAVA]
No, absolutely not. I sent you some text about the bloodline. Your first response to me is chapter two is not satisfying.

Linden generously treats Dodgy like a rag doll. My question is not. I thought it was fun.

Linden gets a little less bitchy and find some testicular fortitude. Because even the way he handles the duel, he's like, all right, guy, we're doing this. Then you say, we'll talk about it, blah, blah, blah.

And here's what I'm responding to. It's just embarrassing for both of them. More for Linden.

It's like grabbing a toddler by the leg and smashing them around. It's like six degree belt fighting an orange belt.

[JONATHAN]
Six degree black belt.

[SLAVA]
Yeah, I get it. And I look at the belt.

[JONATHAN]
You didn't say black belt. Again, I'm just trying to inform the audience.

[SLAVA]
Everybody knows what six degree means. Like 90% of people know. But we'll break it down and spoon feed the audience.

It's like a six degree black belt fighting an orange belt. So I sent you a gif of Jurassic Park Mondo shit. And I said, this is your hot take.

And so we go back and forth. And then I left that alone because we always bust each other's balls. But I'm like, all right, if we're going to talk about it, I want to think this through.

And have an actual book discussion.

[JONATHAN]
He brought out the ammunition, folks.

[SLAVA]
Yes, I did. And so I made notes. Made notes in my little book journal here that I have from our podcast.

And here are my notes, if I can find them. Which is a new journal. Why can't I find them?

Here it is.

[JONATHAN]
May the pendulum be ever in your favor. Swing in your favor. There's an IP.

There's an IP clause there, I'm sure, from my misquoting. OK, bear with me, folks. So again, audience, jump in the comments at the moment before you hear the rest of it.

Where are you guys falling? Let's do like those political live polls, like play by place, right? Like, oh, we're favoring Slava.

Oh, we're favoring Jonathan. OK, continue.

[SLAVA]
Yeah, thank you. So here's my thing. I find your position, I said that it's idealistic and over-sentimental.

[JONATHAN]
Nope.

[SLAVA]
Well, you don't get to say nope until I give you the evidence for it.

[JONATHAN]
I'm not interrupting. I'm just, you know, side commenting.

[SLAVA]
So let me get my glasses.

[JONATHAN]
Can you put your glasses on and click your pen really aggressively at me?

[SLAVA]
Yes, I can. So here's what I said. So I said it's very sentimental.

Your position is sentimental and idealistic. And idealistic, I meant that the view is detached from the story setting, its rules, and internal world logic.

[JONATHAN]
Nope. OK, keep going.

[SLAVA]
You can't say nope after every time I say something. It's not how this works. I mean, I'm not offended by it, but that's just ignorant.

[JONATHAN]
That's fine.

[SLAVA]
Yeah, so my kind of concluding that, it's like cradle is not earth. What looks right for Jonathan in 2025 is not reality and cradle.

[JONATHAN]
And this is how you didn't understand me, but keep going, it's fine.

[SLAVA]
Then you didn't articulate yourself.

[JONATHAN]
Yeah, it's text. Keep going.

[SLAVA]
But you just backed up your text with all the words and it's the same thing. My position doesn't change on what you, you know, extrapolated for the audience. Just a minute ago.

[JONATHAN]
That was context setting.

[SLAVA]
So who, who does it matter? Your position is your position.

[JONATHAN]
No, no, no, no. It's context setting for them, for them. They weren't, again.

[SLAVA]
OK.

[JONATHAN]
I think people are going to side with you at the moment in the live poll. Keep going.

[SLAVA]
Doesn't matter who they side with. My position is my position. So here's, what did I end with?

Since, you know, we're talking, you know, you keep distracting me. Cradle is not earth. Correct.

What looks right for you in 2025 on earth is not the context or reality in cradle. Based on that, if we're continuing with my argument, then who is Dodgy? We're going to look at Dodgy.

He's a bent back-tempered true gold who craved combat. He's jealous. He's overly competitive.

He makes poor decisions based on in-world knowledge. He tries to kill Lyndon. He arranges an ambush of young Akura members.

Kills an Akura. His actions lead to Akura pride and Naruse being injured. After all this, he hides like a coward.

Lies when caught. Mercy, as you explained, calls for a duel. Lyndon beats the crap out of him, doesn't kill him, and lets him live.

He didn't do anything morally wrong by cradle standards or even by earth standards, in my opinion. Then you said that it's like a black belt, a six degree back belt, fighting an orange belt. An orange belt has like nine months of training if he does everything right.

Roughly. A black belt, a year or more. A six degree belt, probably whatever.

A lot more. Not a true comparison. A true gold and what Lyndon is here about a sage.

[JONATHAN]
He's a sage.

[SLAVA]
I would not call that comparison true. I looked up all the belts. I went to a dojo website and I looked up some guy's belt.

And so an orange belt, nine months. Based on what I understand about cradle, I would put Doji at a brown going to red belt. And Lyndon probably being a third degree black at this point.

[JONATHAN]
No, Lyndon is absolutely well above that.

[SLAVA]
But okay. Well, we can agree to disagree on that.

[JONATHAN]
No, no, no. There's not many sages. There's not many sages.

There's not many people.

[SLAVA]
Great. I am making my statement. You made your statement.

I'm making mine. This is my evaluation of the situation. So having said what I said, an analogy would go if a master, a karate master is Lyndon.

He's teaching a cocky red belt level instructor at a dojo a lesson. He doesn't kill him. He embarrasses him and puts him in his place.

That does not look bad for Lyndon. He doesn't kill the guy. He just whips the shit out of him.

So that's my position. And, and what I'm disagreeing with is you saying, oh, that looks bad for Lyndon. That's like a kick in a toddler.

It's not like a toddler. It's two grown men, one a little bit stronger, putting a cocky murderer in his place. End of my argument.

That's where I stand. I don't think it's sad for Lyndon. I think you're categorically wrong in the power levels.

And I think in world, Lyndon did what he was supposed to. And he spared him. So that's all I got to say on the dodgy situation.

[JONATHAN]
Yeah, yeah. So you just so happen to have like left out. I didn't say it was sad.

What's this?

[SLAVA]
You sad. It was sad. It's in the fricking text.

It's a bad look for both of them.

[JONATHAN]
It's degrading. I said, okay, compassion. It's degrading to have to give your time to the duel at all.

Lyndon specifically, because if you're Lyndon giving your time to this, I'm not saying that what dodgy did was correct or good or welcome, or it doesn't deserve justice. None of those things were said. I'm saying it's embarrassing for both of them more for Lyndon because it's, he has to stoop down so low to even step into the ring.

There's a spider on my laptop. I just jumped.

[SLAVA]
Sad or embarrassing. I stand by what I said. The duel had to happen in world rules.

I mean, sure. Lyndon can say, no, I'll never fight such a duel. So the duel had to happen.

[JONATHAN]
I'm not saying Lyndon has to even back out because the Ikura clan. So what I claim, they rule the land. They rule the land.

All I'm saying is that it's embarrassing for Lyndon to have to even participate. Not that he doesn't have to obey the law of the land. Not that Mike doesn't make right.

And that dodgy didn't deserve it because he did. It's literally just such a degration. Do you remember in book one where there was a grown ass man who fought Lyndon who had no power at the time that made his entire family look like morons because he had to stoop so low?

[SLAVA]
Sure.

[JONATHAN]
That's my point here. Even if you're at a station and you have to step down, that doesn't make you. It makes you look worse than the person that you're beating up.

[SLAVA]
And that's what I disagree with. Even with your caveat, even with your caveat, which clears up a little bit of what you were saying in text, which I think you're kind of changing midstream. I think you're moving the goalposts, if I'm being honest.

No, no. Even with the caveat.

[JONATHAN]
You just didn't read the text. It's literally there.

[SLAVA]
Even with the sure, even with the caveat. It is not degrading to Lyndon. He steps into the ring and he just whips a cocky little douchebag who's a few power levels below him.

I don't see that as degrading.

[JONATHAN]
Way more than a few.

[SLAVA]
Who cares? It's absolutely relevant to this conversation for you, for you, my brother, for you. And that's why I ended it with that analogy.

It's like a grandmaster fighting a red belt. Massive difference. But one is a cocky bastard that needs to be put in his place.

Lyndon puts him in his place. And as all analogies, they fall apart. But that's where I stand.

[JONATHAN]
That third character that neither of us can remember their name. It's Mira.

[SLAVA]
Okay.

[JONATHAN]
Or Myra. Myra, Myra.

[SLAVA]
Um, you're going to share with the class.

[JONATHAN]
I'm looking. I'm looking in chapter two here. Um, I think we're both going to agree on this one.

This one's really funny. No dodgy shouted as his injuries knit together. Why should I fight him?

This isn't fair.

[SLAVA]
But that goes to dodgy douchebaggery.

[JONATHAN]
Well, yeah.

[SLAVA]
And the irony is like. Oh, it's not fair. Yeah, of course it's not fair.

But you're a cocky bastard that now have put yourself in this place.

[JONATHAN]
Yeah. Was it fair when you did it to other people?

[SLAVA]
Yeah.

[JONATHAN]
Yeah, exactly. No, it wasn't that.

[SLAVA]
That's, that's the thing. That's my point. Even with your caveat, which shines more light on your position, it's not degrading.

Like, it's not like, oh, now I've got to fight this toddler or this really, you know, weak logo. It's not degrading. Lyndon just has to do it.

And to prove his innocence, you know, in some way. And he doesn't kill dodgy. He doesn't get revenge.

He doesn't even want revenge. He just participates in the duel, beats dodgy. He has to pummel him because dodgy won't stop because he is prideful.

And after he finally stops dodgy, he lets him go. That's my point. My whatever, sad or embarrassing, degrading, whatever the word is, I disagree with your position on on either front, either category thrown there.

I don't think it's either of those things.

[JONATHAN]
You don't think it's embarrassing for Lyndon to stoop down to this guy's absolutely trash level?

[SLAVA]
No, because of the in-world rules. Like, it's how is it degrading? Like, OK, so I am a grandmaster of karate, right?

The blackest belt there is. You are that cocky instructor from brown to going from brown to red. You try to kill my family.

And somehow we find ourselves in a world like cradle and somebody above me says, all right, you know how we settle this in our clan? We duel. I would not find it degrading to get into a ring with you knowing I'm going to put you down in four seconds.

And then you get back up after those four seconds and you try again and I put you down again and put you down again. And then finally, I crack your kneecap and you can't move. I don't see that as degrading at all.

It's frustrating. I might be embarrassed for you and feel pity for you. I am not embarrassed for myself.

I don't feel degraded in this hypothetical.

[JONATHAN]
Right. But the thing that you're leaving out is like the character is Lyndon.

[SLAVA]
But Lyndon acts like Lyndon by sparing him. He doesn't overexert himself and he doesn't fly into a fit of rage and finally, oh, finally, Dodge, you're going to get it. He doesn't do anything out of spite or malice.

[JONATHAN]
Right.

[SLAVA]
He participates in the duel and he spares him. So it doesn't take away from his arc at all.

[JONATHAN]
No, no, no, I'm not.

[SLAVA]
And it's not out of character.

[JONATHAN]
No, I'm not implying that it's out of character. I'm saying that, yeah, it doesn't matter your comparison of like, if you did it in this world bubble, it's like, yeah, but you're a different person than Lyndon is.

[SLAVA]
This is all analogies and hypotheticals to back up my point. I am not making one to one comparison.

[JONATHAN]
So let's let the audience judge who is right. If you've read these nine books, you know Lyndon, you know Malice, you know Okuras, you know what Dodgy did. And actually, we should also ask JT, Casey and Spencer to give a take on this.

Let's just start sides. Look, I might lose. They might be like, Slav is absolutely right.

[SLAVA]
I don't care if people agree with me or don't like it'll be. It's fun. I'm doing this because it's fun.

I love debating this stuff. But honestly, I don't care about the sides. I just disagree with you.

And it's fun. And here we are. That's it.

[JONATHAN]
You tell us.

[SLAVA]
Yeah, tell us, audience. Team Slava or team Dodgy? I mean, Jonathan.

[JONATHAN]
That is not at all my stance. I am not team Dodgy. I'm team authority, and it's embarrassing for someone in that stature.

And here's the thing. And maybe this is questions. If you have questions for us, drop them in the comments, too.

Maybe we haven't been articulate. I'm mostly speaking about myself because Slava thinks that I've changed positions now, which I have not changed positions.

[SLAVA]
But and I'm not accusing you of doing that like maliciously.

[JONATHAN]
I ain't.

[SLAVA]
But it seems from our text, our your answers and our back and forth to the introduction you gave, then to the caveat you gave and to what you're saying now, either you didn't articulate yourself or you can't articulate yourself very well in text. I'm sure I'm going to run a granted. That's why this is not like an attack on you.

I'm like, either you didn't articulate yourself or during this conversation, you moved the goal post is the logical term. But I'm not accusing you of doing that again, not doing that on purpose maliciously. But it seems with your caveat, it now changes completely what you were saying.

But my position still doesn't change to your new position. We're going to call it new. I still stand by the opposite of you.

I still have the opposite opinion. Yes, I'm aware. And not on purpose, not just to go to you.

So I'm still in the position where it's not embarrassing. Well, there was it's not sad. It's not embarrassing.

It's not beneath him.

[JONATHAN]
All the stuff that we talked about and now we're boring the audience beneath him is a good way to say it is that's that's I wish I would have had those words earlier in the week and maybe that would have cleared it up.

[SLAVA]
But if all you're saying is embarrassing because it's beneath him. Okay, I'll grant that. But my response will still be.

What else is he going to do? He did it. He has to do the fight.

He has to do the fight. And that's I'm not saying he shouldn't have fought. Okay, if you are, if at the at the end of it, at the end of this, you know, mini debate, all you're saying is beneath him, then I grant it.

It is beneath him. But it's not embarrassing or degrading.

[JONATHAN]
It's well, and then we still have it. Just let me hear what's right. But it's like I'm saying it's embarrassing for Lyndon because Dodgy is so far beneath him.

That's an articulate.

[SLAVA]
And now we're doing semantics like this.

[JONATHAN]
But the thing is, like, you you've read philosophy. You know that this is how, like, proper when he's like air quotes, proper debates work. Are we talking about the same thing?

Yes. No. Did we define our terms, et cetera, et cetera?

It's like so we have to have these conversations. But at the end of the day, I still want to know that I win. Let me know, folks.

And if you don't agree with me, this was beneath me.

[SLAVA]
All I got to say, this whole debate was beneath me.

[JONATHAN]
Don't leave it in the comments if I lost.

[SLAVA]
No matter who won, share this episode with everybody and make sure they subscribe.

[JONATHAN]
That also that we can agree on. Yeah, that we can agree on.

[SLAVA]
Anyway, Dodgy or that was fun. I love I love this kind of discussion. It's great.

[JONATHAN]
Mike makes right on the side quest as well.

[SLAVA]
Absolutely. I have ascended to.

[JONATHAN]
No, you haven't. Whatever you're about to say is wrong.

[SLAVA]
Well, I'm trying to pull it out of my posterior. So I'll just leave it. I have ascended.

Now, leaving Dodgy behind. What do you think about Lyndon's growth as a character? Because I enjoyed it in this book.

We get little bits of it. It's not like, well, let me let me retract that. We get to see a completely different Lyndon than we did in the different in the past book.

Just like in the beginning of the past book, we see a completely different Lyndon from the previous one. It seems at the beginning of the last two books, Lyndon's character arc jumps a few notches. And I'm here for it.

I love it. He's more determined. He's more passionate.

I wrote in one of my notes. It seems he's more forceful. And then he talks with more authority, even though Aethan has to help him with that.

He's already kind of growing, walking into that in this book, which I find great. I loved it in the previous book, and I'm loving it here. I want to hear your thoughts on that.

[JONATHAN]
On Lyndon's growth?

[SLAVA]
Well, just the way he acts. We just get into a completely different Lyndon. It's not like we get two chapters and figuring it out.

We just get dropped into a new book and, oh, Lyndon's advanced in character. Advanced. Well, wow.

He's doing this, and he's talking like an adult now. And he's saying this one, well, not at all. He's saying apologies less, and he's being more forceful with mercy and the other Akura family members.

So, yep, charity. Thank you. All major platforms, so you can listen to us anywhere.

Now, back to the show.

[JONATHAN]
So, Lyndon, we see a stark contrast of him in this book. And I told you five books ago, I think it was in book four, where... Oh, no, it was book five.

I think it was Ghostwater. I said, eventually, Lyndon is going to have a moment where he encounters his younger self being like, apologies, gratitude.

[SLAVA]
This one.

[JONATHAN]
This one. And it quelled your inner Eastern European anger. Yes.

And you were like, okay, great, because I'm kind of sick of his whole... And I'm like, yeah, yeah. So is he.

[SLAVA]
Yeah.

[JONATHAN]
And we see that finally now, where he's like, oh, this is a second moment, in my opinion, of this book where Lyndon is embarrassed. And he's like, oh. And he's like, really?

This is just a lot of growth for him in book nine here. Because he's like, oh, gratitude. He's like, disgusted with his younger self.

Granted, when you grow, like zooming out of the book for a second, when you grow, you should look back on yourself and go, I was not great. I was young. I was immature.

That means you've grown. That should be applauded and cheered on and succeeded and empowered, or whatever the words are, because I'm really good with words today and always. But he has this huge, I think, as a reader, huge growth of...

I have changed. I now speak on a... Even though he's an introductory sage, Charity's like, just call me Charity, right?

Like, he's stepping into like, oh, hey, you do hold this level of authority, whether you feel like it or not, and you need to act like it. You're still a sage. And she like, brings him up, which again, I think reinforces my point earlier.

Like, it's embarrassing for him to have to sit down beneath him. So anywho, I love the growth that we get to see from Linden, especially with Will bringing us back to Sacred Valley, where it's like, he is, again, so much higher than all these people, it's beneath him to have to come save them. But that's, that action of him, it being beneath him and him still doing it, is why we love his character, right?

So like, regardless of everything I said earlier, literally just swiping my own feet underneath me, but it's why we love Linden, because it's like, it is beneath him in terms of the world and the might makes right and the power level that he is, and he still does it, because he's a real good guy, Linden. That should be like a meme. Good guy, Linden.

Good guy, Linden coming in to save all of his, all of the people he shouldn't have to save. But that's also the inciting incident from Serial in book one.

[SLAVA]
Because this is what he was training for. This is why he's been advancing for the last eight books, is to come and save his ungrateful family and shitty clan.

[JONATHAN]
Yep. Um.

[SLAVA]
So what you said about Linden being kind of pulled up into his position, you know, verbally and kind of emotionally, if you will, by, uh, I always forget, not mercy, charity, by charity. Those moments are far and few in between for Linden, aside from Ethan and Aaron and Orthos to some degree. This is somebody who is outside his real clan, his real quote unquote family, who's like, what, who was not like, who was antagonistic to some degree in the beginning, you know, now going, all right, now we're equals.

You have made it. Act like a sage. Call me mercy.

Call me mercy. Goodness gracious. Call me charity.

That's it. You're done. You're good.

We have now moved forward. And then Linden internally going, oh yeah, um, right. Now that I'm this, and she said that, I have to tell her I'm going to Sacred Valley.

And he does. And he convinces charity to let them go to Sacred Valley. So that's the stuff that I love.

And it's again, referencing what I said earlier, we just get dropped into the world. We see a different Linden and a few chapters later, that different Linden has a little art growth again. So that's fun.

I love watching Linden in the last two books because when we meet up with him again, he's just a bit better as, as a character and better meaning like advanced as a character.

[JONATHAN]
So this, this brings me to a question in your life. Have you ever had to have this moment where you get this new level of authority or like leadership or whatever? Don't feel like you have that leadership authority, whatever, but you're supposed to be acting like, and you, you go through like a similar, a similar experience as Linden, where it's, it's like, oh yeah, I'm supposed to be for lack of words, more.

[SLAVA]
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm going to caveat my answer, but yes, the question is yes.

And I think the majority of people who are not sociopaths and have some sort of, you know, emotional IQ, like six people in America, like have an emotional IQ or an emotional intelligence to some degree have imposter syndrome, right? To some degree, find themselves in a new position of power, authority, advancement, whatever that looks like on earth. And they go, oh wow.

Okay, boom. And a lot of people suffer poorly from imposter syndrome, where it hinders them doing the right things with their new authority.

[JONATHAN]
Super fair.

[SLAVA]
And I'm not judging anybody, just a statement of fact.

[JONATHAN]
Been there. Yep. Yeah.

[SLAVA]
I thankfully have a very low amount of imposter syndrome. It's still there. I have it.

It happens to me, but it's not debilitating to me. But I found myself in positions where like, oh, all right, well, you worked for X many years and now you have an opportunity to become a professor, which has happened in my life. And I'm an adjunct prof at a community college.

It's an online class, nothing fancy, but I'm still an adjunct prof. And even though it's nothing fancy and it's a community college and it's an adjunct position, I am now in charge of teaching people what I have learned in the industry that I'm in over the last 15, 17 years. So now I have to act like that.

I can't just waver in my responsibilities to the students because I have to instill in them the knowledge that I have. So again, as all analogies, they fall apart at some point. But yeah, I have felt like that in my life.

And that's the most recent one where I'm like, oh, I have new responsibilities. I have a new authority, if you will, a new advancement to use the in-world terms. And yeah.

[JONATHAN]
So I still want to get back to my getting super emotional with Chapter Six with Orthos at the end here. But I want to stay on this side quest for a minute. Let's talk about getting over imposter syndrome.

Yeah, right. Like, OK, so you had the luxury is not the right word, the wherewithal, the cut from a great cloth personhood, be that your upbringing, the trauma, whatever, like you've hardened yourself like steel, right, where you don't have as much. So if we're going to just quantify it with random variables, let's say that out of 10, you're a two for imposter syndrome.

And the average person is probably like a seven. Is that fair? I feel like that's fair.

[SLAVA]
Sure. Right. Let's do that.

Yeah.

[JONATHAN]
And I'm just using you to like moderate for a second. I also have felt imposter syndrome. And frankly, I'd say in the last three years, four years, three and a half have been just going like, you know what?

It literally doesn't matter. You have to show up anyway. So like if you have response questions like ask them, but back to you, like, how did you go from, you know, well, first off, were you ever an average seven as imposter syndrome in your in your growing ups in life?

And did you decrease it? How did you decrease it? How should other people how should other people diminish and mitigate and lessen their imposter syndrome in their own lives, regardless of whether or not they're in marketing?

Right. Like, it doesn't matter where you're at. Imposter syndrome is imposter syndrome, whether you're a new politician like I was once or real story.

I don't know if I've ever mentioned that on here. I was a politician like briefly do not recommend. Anyhow.

Yeah. So that's the question. Like, how do you diminish imposter syndrome?

Right.

[SLAVA]
So the first part of your question, I think I've always been a two, if we're being honest.

[JONATHAN]
That's fine.

[SLAVA]
And it's just what is I found myself in positions where, you know, I felt like I didn't belong or I felt imposter syndrome. I experienced imposter syndrome. But the way I'm built, if I see an issue, I want to fix it.

If I'm doing something, I want to do it to the best of my ability. Now, the best of my ability might be a B plus and not an A, but I'll do a B plus. And I won't stop at a B minus just because I'm tired or it's good enough.

I always want to do the best I can with what I have. So that's one half of it. The other half of it.

[JONATHAN]
Can I pause you for just one second and add a definition here for the audience? What Slava just said of like doing the best you doing the best you can based on your current skills and circumstances, even if that is a B plus or maybe for you, it's a C plus. That's actually the definition of excellence.

Which is different than perfection if we want to go there later. So like excellence is doing the absolute best you can currently based on skills, experience, circumstance, whatever. It's it's different than perfection.

Sorry, continue.

[SLAVA]
And the second half of my answer to the first part of your question is I just don't give a damn what people think. I do what I do for myself. So when I dress a certain way or I make jokes about people going to the supermarket in sweats, I'm not here to bash anybody specifically why I don't go to the supermarket in sweats.

It's not because I want the checkout girl to think I'm cute or people to notice me in my sports jacket. I do it because I want to look a particular way. I, me, pride, self-worth.

I want to do that. So taking that principle, yeah. So taking that principle and like, well, I'm in this new job.

I feel underprepared. I feel like I'm not good enough. Well, tough shit.

I want to eat next week. So I better figure this out. And that's it.

And if somebody thinks that I'm doing a bad job, well, if their critique is constructive and helps me get ahead, perfect. If they're just being douchebags, F off, leave me alone. I'm trying to figure out my stuff.

And then I attack the thing and I'm like, oh, actually, I know what I'm doing. Oh, if I take a class or a course or get a certificate or talk to Jonathan to help me with an IT problem at my previous post, now I don't feel like a fish out of water because I have used my resources to the best of my ability. And then I reached out to others who know more.

And now I can run this IT department with the knowledge that Jonathan has given me. And I literally just managed the company. I didn't really run anything.

So that's how I deal with it. Now, the second part of your question, how do you get from a seven to a two? I think realizing that you have worth and you have something to give to any situation.

Now, if you lied on your resume, don't do that, kids.

[JONATHAN]
It will absolutely bite you. Do not do that.

[SLAVA]
Overexaggerated your skill set. Well, again, SOL, that's on you. I don't know what to tell you.

But if you actually know the thing you're doing and maybe you're not an expert per se, but you are qualified for the job you're in, what you're feeling is just external forces. And what you're feeling is other people may be judging you or other people not appreciating you. I don't know, all those things.

But that's an internal thing. You just have to realize, I'm a human being. I have these things.

Well, I'm a human being and that itself means something that I have worth. I have these skill sets. The people that hired me probably are not schlubs.

I probably passed the interview. I probably got this job because they saw something. And now I have to do a job.

[JONATHAN]
I'll talk about that in a minute.

[SLAVA]
That's good. Now I have to do a job. So go do it.

And when you see gaps in knowledge or experience, ask or on your own, you know, fill them. And I think just doing that, and I know it sounds simplistic. Well, I don't think it's that simplistic.

I know it might sound simplistic to some in the audience. But really just coming to work or whatever the heck you're doing and doing it, that's half the battle. Now, I'm not a psychiatrist.

I'm nobody's therapist. If people are genuinely struggling with something.

[JONATHAN]
He's my therapist.

[SLAVA]
With something, right. If people are genuinely struggling with something, that's between them and their pastor, their therapist, whoever to talk out and to work through. But for your average person who honestly just feels imposter syndrome in any job, well, you're there.

People have entrusted you with doing this job. Do the best you can with your given abilities and then expand on those. And before I belabor any more points, I'll let you jump in here.

[JONATHAN]
So that was an epiphany. This thing that you said, like, okay, you get hired for something that you're like, man, I don't feel qualified for this at all, right? This happened to me a couple times in my career.

And the first couple times it was like, oh, man, I don't think I'm supposed to be here, whatever. And then the most recent time it happened in like 2020. I was like, you know, maybe these people who run a successful company know what they're doing.

Maybe they hired me because I have skills that they need. And while I was there, my tenure for time there, there were times where I had to explain things that to me are simple. SEO is very simple to me.

IT work, actually pretty simple. It's complex, but like for the most part, it's like inputs, outputs. It's why Slava came to me years ago before this podcast started.

And he's like, hey, I need to help with this IT stuff. And I was like, oh, it's pretty simple. And he's like, it's not simple for me.

Just tell me. And it had to sink in over dozens of examples where it was like, oh, actually my knowledge is expertise to other people. And until that sinks in for yourself, whether you draw, whether you paint, whether you are a podcaster, whether you're a marketer or a salesperson or whatever, you have skills that you have skills that other people don't have.

You have knowledge that other people don't have. You have abilities that other people don't have. And it's those things that people see and go, oh, hey, I want to bring that on board with my company, or I want to bring that on board with my team, right?

And letting that sink in to go, hey, I see the reflection of them choosing me as a respect or appreciation or acknowledgement of my current skills and expertise and levels and whatever and going. Maybe I do have something to offer here. Another thing that Slava didn't mention that came to mind while he was talking about it, you can have imposter syndrome in different spheres of your life.

You can have imposter syndrome for romance but have a really great career. You can have a really great career and have, oh, I was about to say the same thing. You can have a really great romantic life and you can have a really bad career where you're like, I'm not good at my career or whatever.

It can be different spheres. You can feel like you're not supposed to be part of your family. You can feel like you have performance anxiety where you do know this stuff and then when it comes about, you're like, you don't know how to talk in front of people.

You can have different levels or categories, I guess we'll call it categories, of imposter syndrome where it doesn't feel like you are good enough in an area, but actually if you look at the history and experience that you have, you are. Or the fact that they chose you or they're like, hey, I actually think this person based on their resume, the interviews, blah, blah, blah, they do have what they need. So I just wanted to pull that out of a little bit of what Slava was talking about as well because I think it's an underspoken about thing in today's society where it's like, you don't have to be good at everything.

I think previously on the show, I've talked about how I had a defining moment as a child in third grade where because I didn't have information and you're in school, you're supposed to be learning. I got made fun of in class when we were doing public answers for math and the kid called me stupid, some kid behind me, and then I started crying. And so for my entire life, I have held the moment that if you don't have information, you're an idiot.

And so that's a different level of imposter syndrome to get over where you have to heal and then accept that you do have information that other people don't. So I would constantly give people the benefit of the doubt that like, oh, well, they probably already know this. So they're well ahead of me.

But it was in that job in 2020 or whatever it was where I'm like, oh, explaining. I'm like, oh, well, this will boost SDO, blah, blah, blah. And then one of our VPs, who's just a brilliant guy, he's like, quick question, what's SEO?

And that was a defining moment for me to bring about some full circle, some full healing. And I was like, oh, and other people were kind of nodding their head like, yeah, I don't know. Like, I've heard of it.

I don't really know what that is. And I'm like, oh, I have a skill here. Oh, I have knowledge here that other people don't have.

And that's why they hired me. Oh, OK. But you have to accept that for yourself.

That's one of the ways you drive out imposter syndrome. And the other ways and Slava kind of talked about this, too. You have to just do the reps.

You literally just have to have so much evidence to prove your anxiety and your performance, your performance anxiety, your imposter syndrome wrong. Where it's like, well, let me jump in here for one second.

[SLAVA]
I've been waiting for a moment to sneak in here. What you said, you used the term performance anxiety a little bit ago. I think most of imposter syndrome is driven by that.

People kind of know that they're at this job and they got hired and they're happy. But when they have to execute, it doesn't have to be public speaking either or presenting in front of the board. When they have to execute, they just get anxiety.

Well, what if I do this wrong? And what if I mess up? And for everybody, it looks different.

So I'm generalizing here. I think that's the thing you have to kill in order to slay the bigger dragon, which is imposter syndrome. Is it getting over your performance anxiety?

And for some people, it'll take a week. For some people, it'll just take two guys on the Internet saying this. And they're like, oh, yeah, let me go try not doing that.

For some people, it'll take years. And wherever you are in the journey, right, wherever you are in the journey, the reps is what's important.

[JONATHAN]
Yeah. So this relates to Linden in chapter three and four because of reasons, you know?

[SLAVA]
Yeah, well, he does have a little bit of imposter syndrome.

[JONATHAN]
He does.

[SLAVA]
And even in this book. And he hears he's like calling charity charity. And he's telling her no.

Yeah, he's a little uncomfortable. And he knows that he's a sage and he knows that he has to ask and then knows he has to demand politely. And then he'll wait.

I am a sage. I can be more forthright with my speech.

[JONATHAN]
Also, he's a direct reflection from the people of Sacred Valley, from the culture that he grew up in, where he's like, apologies. He's like, ooh, cringe.

[SLAVA]
Yeah. Yeah. That's a mean face.

But yeah, but I loved it. Going back to the original thing you said before we got on the side quest that I was waiting for him to meet his younger self and go, oh, brother. Oh, and him seeing that iron going apologies in this one.

And also, he's like, oh, gosh, I was that I am. I am so like cringing inside right now, which brings up just a funny aside question. And, you know, we don't have to go in a whole cycle of this.

But do you ever just walk throughout the day in your office or wherever you are? And then a memory pops up of you doing something stupid as a kid. You go like, oh, God.

And you feel the embarrassment and anxiety you felt at that time. Has that ever happened to you?

[JONATHAN]
Has it ever happened? Yes. Does it happen regularly?

No. No, I can't. I can't think like it's not a regular occurrence for me.

[SLAVA]
Okay. Yeah. But it happens to me time to time.

Like, I will be walking down the hall of my office and I'll remember, I don't know, something from childhood where it's cringy. I'm like, oh, yeah, that was bad.

[JONATHAN]
Thinking back to embarrassing times from childhood when you were rolling up to 29 Neibolt Street with your gang of losers?

[SLAVA]
Yes. Yes. My broken arm.

[JONATHAN]
If you know, you know.

[SLAVA]
Yep. Yes, sir. But I want to move on.

This is a great side quest. I want to move into Sacred Valley and all the fun the team is having and all the trouble Circuit Valley douches are giving our squad here. I want to unpack a little bit of that.

[JONATHAN]
Bring it. Keep it going. Let's do it.

[SLAVA]
Well, the squad is back in Circuit Valley. They're trying to evacuate. They're getting accused of trying to take over the clans.

They're getting pushed back. All the Jades are acting horrendously. They're vile.

They're just vile. They treat these people.

[JONATHAN]
They're acting jaded.

[SLAVA]
Yes. Boom.

[JONATHAN]
Oh, brother, this guy stinks.

[SLAVA]
And what do you do in a situation like this? So you're sages and overlords and true golds, and you come to this town and it's a back hole, backwater, the hillbillies of this world who, irrespective of what the dampening is doing to the valley, they're assholes. Even though there was no dampening, these people would be assholes with just the ability to go past Jade.

And whether you're Linden trying to save your kin and your clan or your Aethern or Mercy or even Zeal helping your buddy Linden and helping the world in general, you're doing the right thing, so to say. And you meet these people and 90% of them are like, F you. F you.

F you. Nobody's cool. Leave us alone.

We're all going to fight you. With just pure ignorance, right? They're like vile people.

People are telling them like, hey, the earthquake's been feeling for a couple of weeks. That's a real thing coming. It's a Dread God.

He'll murder everybody. We need to get out of here. Oh, you're here to take our clan.

Oh, Linden. Linden's back? Well, F that guy.

That's unsold. He's here to now pay us back for all our, you know, all our evils that we unleashed on him. Which again, in-world, that kind of makes sense.

But the actual response of these people, I just found so frustrating and just horrendous. Like I wrote a couple of words down about it and it's, it is vile is one of the words. I already used that.

I just found it vile. Like they're foolish people and they're ignorant of their own foolishness, which is the worst kind to be. Because you can be ignorant and know you don't know everything that you can.

And even be stubborn when faced with evidence of your ignorance and even fight, you know, the presentation of that evidence or whatever it is. But at some point that has to break and you go, okay, okay, okay. Now you convinced me.

These people, none of that is happening. They're turning up the ignorance to 11 and they are so ignorant of what they don't know of how foolish and arrogant they're acting that they are destroying not only themselves, but they're putting in danger to people around them. And it was a very frustrating read.

Now the people on Reddit, they were frustrated for different reasons than I was. They were frustrated that some of them were frustrated that Mercy and Lyndon and the rest of the gang didn't just obliterate everybody or say, you know what, I did what I could. I'm out.

So I want to talk about that a little bit. And what I want to set up here is the following question. So imagine if this is like in our world, you're evacuating a school, you're evacuating some backhoe town and everybody's a bunch of crazy, you know, mountain people or hillbillies who distrust the government and you're the government for, for, again, analogies falling apart already.

But like, what do you do? Do you just let everybody die because you're Lyndon? Do you just say, you know, F you all and I'm done.

I tried my best. You know, Serial gave me a vision. You clearly deserved what Serial did in option A.

I am going home. What do you do, Jonathan? And then I have a follow-up question.

[JONATHAN]
I'm trying to time this so that there's not screaming above me. You can hear that?

[SLAVA]
Oh yeah. It's Dodger getting beat.

[JONATHAN]
Just using all of the things against me. This is, this is my life. What was the question?

[SLAVA]
How many kids do you have?

[JONATHAN]
I have zero children, but I also have three. I have Schrodinger's children. They're both mine and not mine.

If you know, you know.

[SLAVA]
Yeah. The question was, what do you do in this situation? Like, you know, Lyndon, this is his family.

This is his clan. The rest of the squad is just helping Lyndon. But these people are just backward, arrogant fools and you have to save them.

So like pulling it into a real world example. You and I are going to, are part of the government or whatever it is. And we're tasked to save some people in some back hole, you know, dog shit, Indiana.

Sorry, Indiana. No offense. Whatever.

[JONATHAN]
Not to name names, but Gary, Indiana.

[SLAVA]
And the people there are not only weaker than us, less armed than us. They're arrogant. They're vile.

And they have it in their heads that we're there to take their land and their guns and their trucks or whatever it is. But we have to save them.

[JONATHAN]
Right, right. So first it would be embarrassing because of how far beneath us they are.

[SLAVA]
Yes, yes. So you wouldn't just, you know, Hulk smash Loki, each one of them that you met. Only one, the guy who tried to kill me and you.

You would probably Hulk smash his ass, right? At least I would think you would avenge my attempted murder.

[JONATHAN]
Do you remember earlier in the chapters where they're walking into Sacred Valley and Zeal gets attacked and he just doesn't even, he doesn't even treat it like a fly.

[SLAVA]
I guess I'll die. Yep, Zeal's great.

[JONATHAN]
And they're just like baffled because he doesn't even, he doesn't block it. He doesn't, it doesn't do anything to his clothing. I wouldn't do anything because it wouldn't bother you.

It would bother you that I didn't do anything, but it wouldn't like actually hurt you. That's how far beneath us they are. Anyway, to answer your question, because I thought it'd be funny to do a callback.

What would I do? Well, I'm, I'm like a nice guy Linden. What did I say earlier?

Good guy Linden?

[SLAVA]
Good guy Linden.

[JONATHAN]
Good guy Linden. Uh, and I, for the most part, do the right thing in integrity, even when I am internally reeling at the moronic behaviors, attitudes, responses of other people. Because, and the thing is you can go, oh, well, he's taking the moral high ground.

It's not even about that. It's really not. The thing is, I have to live with me.

Yeah. You have to live with you. If you can live with yourself where you're not helping other people, whatever.

Hey, bless you. Good job. I can't do that.

I, anytime I get on a plane, I literally think through like, okay, how am I going to help these people if an emergency happens? I literally, I, I run a scenario like in my head.

[SLAVA]
You are Linden.

[JONATHAN]
I do. I, I love this character. I really do.

Because it's like, okay, we got, you know, four rows behind me. There's a grandma. And then two rows ahead of me, there's the woman with her kid and her husband and the kid just threw up.

So like, okay, how are we going to handle all this stuff?

[SLAVA]
You got to stop flying spirit. Sorry, spirit. Don't sue us.

[JONATHAN]
Yeah. Sponsor us instead.

[SLAVA]
Sponsors instead. Then we won't make jokes about you.

[JONATHAN]
Oh guys, do us a favor. This is just, I am here for the lulz. Tag spirit airs and be like, they gave you guys a shout out on the show.

Just tag them. Just six or seven comments each. That'd be fantastic.

[SLAVA]
I've flown spirit airlines and they were great. I lie. I've never flown spirit.

I, I like Delta and Delta, if you want to sponsor me, Delta, I'm here for you.

[JONATHAN]
The most recent flight that I had was Delta.

[SLAVA]
Best flight ever on Delta. I like my Delta card. I like the Delta lounges.

[JONATHAN]
You're just going to flash Delta in the background.

[SLAVA]
No, we'll get sued.

[JONATHAN]
No. Um, it's not defamation. It's free advertising for them.

We're not getting sued. Anyway, answer your question. I'm like good guy, Linden.

This is how you get sponsorships as a content creator? Question mark.

[SLAVA]
No, no. This is how you make jokes as a content creator.

[JONATHAN]
Oh, okay. All right. But I, I would, I would help these absolute foolish people because I have to live with me.

Right. That's, that's the decision that I would make in a world like this. And that's also, no, that's just it.

That's my point. I won't, I won't. That's my point.

That's my point.

[SLAVA]
I found the other word I wrote for these people. Like heaven's glory. I have heaven's glory equals incorrigible vermin because they are so vicious and arrogant and foolish.

But yeah, you can't say F it. You know, I tried my best and let them all die.

[JONATHAN]
If you are, if you didn't actually try your, if you did not also try your best.

[SLAVA]
Right. Right. Exactly.

And if you are a certain level in this world, it is your responsibility. It's irrelevant whether it might rakes right. I mean, it's kind of relevant and I'll come to that.

That's the second part of my question. But at its, at its base, it's irrelevant because you're mighty and you have a responsibility. So I agree with you.

I would also try my best to save these assholes. Now I might be, I might, here's what I might do. Probably knowing myself and being honest with myself and the audience, I would be less patient and less kind.

I'd be like, all right, mother. We're going. And without doing the dodgy thing to them, I might have to go.

All right. Ethan, mercy guys. I'm going to go take a smoke break.

Can you round these guys up please?

[JONATHAN]
Before I do something smoked. Right. It's like that Ben Affleck meme where he's like outside.

[SLAVA]
That would be me. That would be me while inside mercy, Ethan and the gang are rounding up my family and I'm outside doing the Ben Affleck thing. But yeah, so I agree with you.

I think doing the right thing because you have to live with yourself is the right thing. Now, second part of my question, did Linden and mercy and the rest of them take too long before they whipped out their authority and will and just said, all right, we're going, we're going by force. Now, irrespective of the need for the book length, because I know why authors drag some things out.

It might be for book length. It might be for the type of story they're trying to tell. It might be purposeful.

It might be incidental. And I'm not making any judgments on that.

[JONATHAN]
Okay. I was going to ask like in world dragged it out.

[SLAVA]
No, I don't. I'm just saying I'm basing some of my stuff on Reddit comments and I'm disagreeing with most of them. But my second question to you is all right.

You had to do the right thing, Jonathan. You're a good guy, Jonathan. Now, how long do you do it for before you whip out the tasers and go, you guys are coming with me.

Sorry.

[JONATHAN]
Uh, I think, you know, three is a good number. Three, three chances. And then try and grab people to bring them with you like they do.

And then if they don't come and they're like, I'm not coming with you like jai long. Okay. Hey, yeah, that's sale chief.

I, I'm not going to twist. I'm, I'm, I'm too old. I've done this for too many times.

If you're a longtime listener, you've heard me talk about how I started a business to help artists and I partnered with two friends of mine and found out a couple of years into the business that they didn't want to make a profit at all. No profit, nothing. And we were barely getting by and I was covering most of the bills.

Like I've tried to save a drowning person before. I'm not doing that anymore. I'll throw you a life raft.

I'll give you an opportunity. You don't want to help. Hey, bless you.

You probably understand it better than I do. Good luck. See you later.

If you want to come back and get help, I'm here for you. If you don't, I'm not going to twist your arm. You do you boo.

That's on you. I'm not responsible for you.

[SLAVA]
Yeah. So going back to the comments online, a lot of people were not a lot. I keep saying a lot.

Let's split. Two people. It was like two people.

[JONATHAN]
Blue donkey, seven, seven, four. And a red fire.

[SLAVA]
Linda sucks. You know, Linda sucks.

[JONATHAN]
Two to five.

[SLAVA]
Yeah.

[JONATHAN]
We see you in the Reddit comments from 17 years ago.

[SLAVA]
Yeah. They felt frustrated that it took so long for them to start kicking ass and taking names and rescuing people.

[JONATHAN]
So that's a prompt in the characters.

[SLAVA]
Then that's what I'm about to get it. Lyndon acting the way he does and feeling the feels he feels are relatable to me to my core because I have family members like Linden and it's not as bad, but they remember me as a hurt, scared, awkward, annoying little dweeb.

[JONATHAN]
Yeah. It's a snapshot of you from the past that has not been allowed to grow.

[SLAVA]
Right. And no matter what I do, no matter the degrees I get, no matter the jobs I get, no matter the successful 20 year marriage that I have, which they thought would never happen. It's never enough.

And they talk to me like I'm still 16. So I feel what Linden is feeling here. And I thought me being frustrated with the whole situation as I was reading and going, oh, my gosh, was a good thing.

Like Will knocked it out of the park. He dragged it out, quote unquote, the right amount. So I disagree with some of the commenters.

I think the fact that it took as long as it did in the book was perfect. And that's why I like this book the best. Because the first thing I said, we get a second snapshot of Linden all of a sudden grown like, hey, buddy, glad to see you.

I'm glad to see you advanced. And then we get to see him talk with charity and mercy and get what he wants. He goes to Sacred Valley.

He gets betrayed by his family and his clan. And he still goes, all right, guys, we got to do something and seeing him fight and seeing him show restraint in the fight and seeing him caring for Yaren and seeing him executing the whole thing, I thought it was absolutely well done. A plus all the cookies and stars to Will White for this book.

I loved it. This section specifically, as frustrating as it was reading about these incorrigible vermin, as I named them.

[JONATHAN]
This is because they act like they act like it would do just that, which makes me wonder, Will, are you OK? You good, bro? You got family like this?

You can tell us.

[SLAVA]
You're right what you know.

[JONATHAN]
Should turn that into a short and then tag him.

[SLAVA]
He'll love it.

[JONATHAN]
Yeah. This is this is how people respond, though. Like people who are so set in their ways.

That's how they do it. You're trying to get one over them, especially like in this world. Might makes right the whole shtick, right?

And I mean, if we're going to go on the other side of the coin, which I think you're going to dog me on this one, but like if you're the Heaven's Glory School and all you've ever known is Sacred Valley and all you've ever known is the backwoods and fighting to get your spot and you've made it to elder, you know, Podunk Town, whatever his name is.

[SLAVA]
Dog shit, Indiana.

[JONATHAN]
Yeah, Gary, just call it what it is. Slava, just Gary actually sponsors us. We're trying to change our name.

Can you guys we're going to give you some money. Would you start speaking well of Gary, Indiana?

[SLAVA]
Please stop calling us dog shit.

[JONATHAN]
Yeah, you don't even need to speak well of us. Just stop.

[SLAVA]
No, it's not even Gary, Indiana. It's the smell of Gary, Indiana and some Podunk Town like, well, dog shit, Indiana.

[JONATHAN]
Anyway, so you become this leader of nothing, right? It feels like everything to you. And then, you know, some punk kid comes back to town as a savior.

Yeah, of course, you're not going to trust him. But first time's free, right? Sure.

First time's free. You see the tremors and now you're just defending your little kingdom that's about to get a little obliterated. That's on you, boo.

That's on you. Yeah, that was on you.

[SLAVA]
And if you have emotional intelligence, which they don't, which they don't. But if you do, you can be like, oh, this little unsolved punk comes back to town spotting some nonsense. But wait a minute.

[JONATHAN]
That's a new data point.

[SLAVA]
Maybe I should pay attention. Right, right. He's now advanced.

There are tremors. If he's advanced this far, he probably doesn't want this podunk town.

[JONATHAN]
You've stepped well beyond outside of their heads, though. You're thinking maybe.

[SLAVA]
Yes, of course I am. For my example here, maybe, maybe I should listen to him. That's what a normal person, even in their situation, standing on the other side of the fence, the other side of the coin, as you said, that's what a normal person, even somebody who's stubborn, you know, from Gary, Indiana, would do.

But these people are in Sacred Valley. They're not as upright and honest as the citizens of Gary. And they're just horrible to everybody and each other.

[JONATHAN]
So facts. Yeah, but let's let's hit one more point this episode before we wind down, because I did I did tease to the audience that I wanted to talk about Chapter six, where Orthos is revealed again. And so just prior to this, Linden is basically interrogating people.

And he's like, where's the Weishi clan? How are they doing? And then they're like, well, they keep attacking us and blah, blah, blah.

We're going to go pounce on them. And he knows the Weishi clan doesn't have a lot of people. It's basically his parents and his sister.

And he knows Orthos is like in the in the West here with him. And then one of them blurts out in the conversation. Well, it was that, you know, turtle with, you know, dragon fire.

And Linden's like. I know Orthos is here. OK, and then we cut over like a movie to Orthos and Kelsa, Linden's sister, fighting.

And I it gets me every time. And Kelsa, like, can't do anything. And Orthos is like.

I we're going to keep fighting until the end. There's no even there's no even question with him. His his.

[SLAVA]
Die with honor, dragon.

[JONATHAN]
His black dragon pride is just like through and through.

[SLAVA]
Yeah.

[JONATHAN]
And I love that. I love that where there's the characters themselves, right? That's it makes the story real.

And he starts laughing and Kelsa's confused because she's like, we're about to we're about to die. What do you what do you mean? You know, and and and.

Orthos is just like, just hold on a little longer. He's coming in. She's like, who's he?

Who's who's coming? Who's who's who's coming? And I think for me.

And like, I'm going to, like, try and unpack this for myself, I guess. And you guys can relate or you cannot relate. Whatever for me.

Though that that tension, that moment of like, just hold on a little longer. Has felt like most of my life. If you're if you're regular here, you know, I have a birth defect.

And like, it's caused me a lot of health problems, whatever. I also view the world through a Christian lens. I also consider us in a spiritual battle in the physical realm, if you will, between good and evil to oversimplify this.

But this idea of of hold on just a little longer. Is like. It speaks to my soul.

And that's the only way that I know how to describe it, which is why, like, if you ever are living or if you're ever like experiencing a story or a moment and like you start to get emotional and you know, you're not an emotional person or like you just normally have like an even keel. It's just like an outlier data point. You got to pay attention to those moments because it means something to you.

And it probably means something to you at a soul level because you're responding accordingly. And for me, reading this and feeling like Kelsa and feeling like Orthos, and it's like, just hold on a little longer. Just hold on a little longer things.

The tides are about to turn because I've just been through a lot of shit. That moment, and this is why I think this is probably the best chapter in in the entire cradle series. I also don't remember books 10, 11, 12 super well, but it's these it's it's these it's these moments where.

It's like Helm's Deep to give another say, it's like Helm's Deep, it's like look to the east at the dawn of the third day and you're sitting there slogging through and you're losing. It's this it's this Christos moment of hope where it's like, no, Jesus is coming and it's going to be a victory. You just have to hold out a little longer.

And it gets me every time.

[SLAVA]
But that's life, brother. I get it. I get away.

I guess it is everything. Everything in life is. Not as rosy as people wish it to be, or some painted out to be.

It's not the best lives with the best money and the best family has dark nights of the soul. Yes, like everybody. Yeah, whatever shit you're going through as a middle, lower class, just guy barely making it.

And you look at the other side of the fence or the other side of the tracks and you think they might have it better. The sound them are also incorrigible assholes, but so are some of your neighbors. So are some of your poor neighbors.

So the asshole thing is a human trait. But the best life a person can have will have dark nights of the soul. And they also with money or without money, with prestige, without prestige, authority, advancement, whatever the right term, whatever the right world is.

Everybody has a dark night of the soul. And holding out just a little longer is what gets people through. It really does.

And sometimes that's definitely years and years. And that can get difficult. But, you know.

[JONATHAN]
Well, that's why moments like this, whether it's Helms Deep, it's this moment with Orthos and Linden coming in to save the day. It's like, yeah, sometimes holding out a little longer is seven years. But the tides turn.

And so if this can be any sort of encouragement for the listeners, life can be really shitty to you right now. But as two guys have gone through our own stuff that different flavors, but like suffering always has a unique taste, even if it's the same. That makes sense.

Even if like, how did I said this actually to a guy recently who's going through like a pretty rough divorce? It's the same guy that I sent the fan into flame thing to. Literally like two days ago.

And it just kind of came to me as I was thinking about him. I said, I haven't been through your experience, but each suffering sucks in its own unique way. And so to get back to my encouragement real quick, if you as the listeners are going through a difficult time, I encourage you to just hold on a little longer.

Like, I don't know what the tides turning looks like for you, but it will turn. And sometimes, sometimes that means death.

[SLAVA]
Suffer well.

[JONATHAN]
Yeah.

[SLAVA]
Because we all suffer. Some longer for others, but suffer well.

[JONATHAN]
Yep. And I guess that's the episode because I don't have a whole lot more to offer at the moment for the first half of the book.

[SLAVA]
And what I want to set up for the second part of the book is again, pardon my analog notes. I want to talk about some plot devices and bloodline next time. Also go over the plot itself like we did for this book, hit key moments.

But the suppression field, the dread God is a catalyst and that willpower and authority that I referenced a couple of times that Linden and the gang eventually use. I want to talk about those. So that's for next week.

And a lot, a lot more plot points because the second half of this book was also great. I love the book, but that's it, folks. We will return to cradle next week.

Until then, make sure to like, subscribe, follow us on Instagram, TikTok. You're now watching us on YouTube. Make sure you ring that bell so you get all the notifications.

And hopefully this is a new chapter in PsyQuest. You've seen a couple of videos already, but we made it to YouTube. We're very happy to be here and we wouldn't have done it without your support.

So thank you.

[JONATHAN]
Help us meet the book lovers in your life by sharing the channel, this episode, and commenting the books that we should read in the comments. And be sure to subscribe. I have a favor to ask you.

If you like what we're doing, the simplest way to support the show is to hit subscribe. In return, we'll keep leveling up and we'll listen to your feedback and read authors that you suggest. And of course, we'll take PsyQuest along the way.

Thank you for joining us and we'll see you next time.