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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
Cody Buriff
Welcome to another episode of the Restorative Man podcast. My name is Cody Buriff and this week I get to co-host with the man, the legend, Chief Farrd, founder of Restoration Project Chris Brunel.
Chris Bruno
Hey,
Cody, good to be with you today. What an intro. What an intro.
Cody Buriff
Well,
I realized like I've gotten a co host with Jesse and Jess has gotten a coast with you and I've been in a podcast with you, but it's never been the two of us.
Chris Bruno
So is- I know. So, screw Jesse. It's you and me today,
Cody Buriff
We love you, Jesse. Well, guys, today in this episode, similar to our previous episode, we are teasing an upcoming event here at the end of September 2025. hosting the Restorative Manhood Digital Summit with bunch of interviews with a bunch of amazing people. And today we're going to tease one of those interviews, a piece of one of them, and then talk about it. So. Yes.
Chris Bruno
Yes. And so guys, like this summit is a big deal. We've got some really amazing people that are joining us to talk about being men, being restorative men and all that. Cody, you've done a ton of work to put this together and pull all this off. you guys, if you're listening to this podcast, you absolutely need to register. It's a totally free event, right? So totally free event, register for it. It's online and you can participate from wherever in the world you are.
And Cody, I was just in Kenya with the Restoration Project Trek experience where we took fathers and their older teens as the teens are getting ready to launch. get this, I had many Kenyans coming up saying, hey, I just heard your latest podcast. So this is is exciting. So guys, Kenyans, friends, brothers, wherever you are, join us in this Restorative Manhood Digital Summit.
Cody Buriff
That's awesome. Yeah. the way we're doing it, you'll be able to listen on your schedule on your time. So it's super accessible. Yeah. The web address for that restoration project.net slash R D summit. And you'll probably hear an ad somewhere in the middle of this podcast for it. So yeah, you want to, you want to jump into today's conversation? Yeah. I'm going to play this clip and, and then we'll talk about it.
Chris Bruno
Okay.
Cathy Loerzel
We need men and the masculine in its most redeemed version. I do a lot of work with women and with families. And the hardest thing for me is when men are so apologetic about being men. I think what they're apologizing for is the false masculine of like how it's been distorted, how they've been asked to like overpower people and not actually care for people. But the true masculine is really needed.
in the world. Like there's a power to it. There's a capacity for other people to rest into the structure that it offers. There's a beauty to a man who's like really okay with his manhood.
Chris Bruno
Mm hmm. yeah. Well, so that that conversation was with our friend Kathy Lorzell, and she's the author of Redeeming Heartache and does a ton of work in this realm of men and masculinity and story work with men. And so that was such a fun conversation. So I'm really excited to kind of chat about this and especially what she just said.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, totally. And she said a lot more than that. But I guess that's a huge thing that she just said there. I mean, it's a really cool clip. I think, Chris, maybe I'll start just by asking you this question if I can. In this work, I feel like what I've heard a lot of, I've heard a lot of men wrestling with the question, am I enough? And I think there's a reality that just as often men are also haunted by this fear that they're too much.
too intense, too emotional, too aggressive, too sexual, too, just too much. And I guess I'm curious, you've been doing this a long time. How have you seen that tension between not enough and too much kind of shaped the way that men show up in their relationships and in the world?
Chris Bruno
Such a great question. And when I think about the terms, you know, not enough or too much, the first question that I come back with is like, so like who created the measuring stick? Not enough for what? Or too much for what? And I think I know for me, I've often felt it myself, just those are the two messages that you are not enough or you are too much. And it hurts. It's like, how do I even know where to land? Where's the middle?
And the reality is, Cody, and maybe you guys listening, can feel this too. I have felt it myself. Like there are times when I feel like I'm not enough and there are times when I feel like I'm too much. And I think the question is like, where's the measuring stick? And what do we do actually when we what we do with ourselves? What do we do with our own shame? What do we do with our own curiosity when we feel like we're not enough? What's going on there or when we feel like too much? And rather than having judgment towards it, let's approach it with a curiosity of like
So what is making me feel not enough? What is making me right now feel too much? And to go from that stance versus judging either end of those polarities of not enough or too much, what do we do with that with curiosity instead?
Cody Buriff
Yeah, I noticed for myself, there have been many times in life where I've been told that I was too much, you know, I think one thing that I that I have taken on my identity at some point in my life was I was told that I was a I was God wired me with 220 volts in a 110 world. So if people are remotely familiar with electricity, like houses used to be 110 volt, and then they doubled it to 220. So most new houses at 220.
Chris Bruno
Wow.
Cody Buriff
cut service coming into the and I was told that my energy, my enthusiasm, my ambition, you know, a lot of a lot of things about me, my silliness, too much, not safe even.
Chris Bruno
Mm. Okay,
so there's a really important word that I want to come back to, not safe.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, yeah. So what I learned, like what I did with that was I learned to just pull back. And it became then, I would say, not safe for me to show up in my fullness. You know, with my strength, my strength became dangerous is what I that's what I internalized was the message.
Chris Bruno
Yeah. So I want to come back to the word safe. And also you just said another word strength. Okay. Cause I think what ends up happening is we lose sense of what strength is versus power. Yeah. And I think that's some of what Kathy was talking about in that clip that you played is that strength is actually what we need from men, but it is it.
you know, we kind of learn no actually power is what's needed. And that's where, you know, even the 110, 220, it's 220 power that's coming. Right. And that can become unsafe. When strength becomes power, it can become unsafe and dangerous. But when strength is actually strength, where you're holding, you're sitting in a sense of like foundation and solidness and
centeredness and groundedness, even as Kathy said, like in their own manhood, strength offered is not dangerous. Strength elicits safety. Strength creates that kind of safety, whereas power doesn't. the same thing has been told to me, like for people who don't know me that well, I am an Enneagram Eight. And there's something about that, which is for those that you don't know the Enneagram, it's like the challenger, the one who's like the pusher kind of person who challenges the world and
And I can get pretty intense in moments and I can push pretty hard in the term that's been used for me is I'm a steamroller that I just come in and I've got the bulldozer or the steamroller or whatever it is. And I just kind of plow through and that's dangerous. That can be dangerous unless you're actually like clearing a mountain pass when you need a bulldozer. coming back to that word strength and power, think having a sense.
of the difference of those two things is really a good place to start.
Cody Buriff
that's really good. When you think, like, what are some of the earliest messages men tend to receive, you know, even as kids that make them start questioning whether their masculinity is safe or even welcome?
Chris Bruno
I have a lot of opinions about this. I'll try to, I'll try to bring it. I think, so I think first of all, the world is not set up, especially the world of education is not set up for boys who have that kind of masculine energy. And it's come into a classroom that is quiet and sit down in a desk and focus on your paper only and do the thing in front of you.
and raise your hand if you wanna talk and raise your hand if you need to go to the bathroom. like, that's just not a great setup for all of this internal masculine energy that so many of us have, right? And especially as boys in that scenario, whenever there is an energy that leaks out of that desk or leaks out of that classroom, they're told that they're not good, that they're misbehaving, that they're a bad boy, right?
So that kind of thing, they're naughty, then they receive some punishments. We receive punishments for that. So there's that conformity, even really young, really early kindergarten, when you're just like five, six years old and you're full of this like bouncing energy off the walls and you're told to sit down and be quiet. No, that's not good. So granted, there needs to be some level of containment to the chaos. And so a teacher, of course, is not doing this intentionally against your masculinity.
But I just think that there's some setup there for boys right from the beginning. So when you say, are some of the earliest messages of that, that I think you're too much comes at a really early age, really early age. At the same time, there's messages I think that come to boys at that same age that when they have tears, when they have sensitivity, when they have concerns, when they are hurt, that they're just supposed to brush those things off, that to express
anything in that emotional space is not manly, then, you know, then what is what's left? Sit down and be quiet and don't cry. Like take away all the things that little boys feel. I think the messages are pretty clear from the beginning. Yeah, you don't belong here.
Cody Buriff
You can't have emotion. Yeah, totally. I hate that. I hate that for our kids and for those generations.
Chris Bruno
Yeah, don't.
Yeah.
I think that for us as freaking adult men now, like we still have to find a way to contain and control.
Cody Buriff
We're dealing with.
I guess Chris, I'm wondering as that plays out later in life, you know, and I even I'll just I'll speak for myself, you know, when a man kind of either disowns or downplays his strength, you know, his relationships and in his world, you know, what happens in that scenario when he kind of avoids wanting to be seen as threatening and just kind of pulls back?
Chris Bruno
Yeah, well, it's kind of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, right? Like, so you don't want to be a man of power like we were just talking about. And so you abdicate all of your strength. Well, then I think the world ends up super hungry because the world is hungry for you to show up. Your wife, your kids, your work, your church, all those places are super hungry for you to show up. And if you're afraid to bring any edge of yourself to it, any of that strength to it, then I think there's a huge loss because that's what your strength is actually designed to be brought for.
And it's that shift over into power that it's not designed to be brought for, but it's the bringing of your strength. So when guys are afraid to bring their strength, and I've been in this scenario too, like when I'm afraid to bring my strength, there is an abdication of my responsibility of bringing my manhood that I think the world is still hungry for. And so we need to, it's part of us. It's part of our design and it's part of the world's design to want it from us. And so when we shut those things down, we're actually creating a significant masculine famine.
Cody Buriff
Masculine famine. It's good. I guess I'm curious for you as my elder. As you've had to wrestle through some of those messages and some of those false beliefs about yourself and even you know, second story, right and had to learn how to show up to the world again, in a healthy way. What's that been like for you?
Chris Bruno
Hey, watch it.
It's been a journey and it still is happening. So even though I am your elder, a few years, it's still happening. I think Cody, one of the things that I had to work on was really sitting with what is harmful for me to bring and what is necessary for me to bring. So when I show up, it's less about if I show up, it's more about how I show up. How would I like to show up to this room?
or to this project or to this team or to this space or to this family dinner? Like, how would I like to show up? And not just how would I like to, but really what is the call of God for me in this space? Who am I in this space as fully Chris? When I find myself defaulting to the places of moving towards power, then I'm finding myself more dissociated from my true Chris. I'm not actually
the full me because there's something about me that needs to prove something, make something happen, protect myself, build my reputation, whatever it is, there's something about that that's moving more towards the power me than the strength me. But when I can come in strength, it's more the real me because I'm aware of myself and fully embodied in myself and fully just more present even with myself as I'm present with other people. So.
I think the questions that I've had to ask myself are like, when I notice myself moving edging towards power or edging towards the rise of energy that feels like it's starting to need to come out of me, right? I need to ask myself the question why? Like what's going on? What's underneath the surface? What's cranking inside my heart that's feeling either scared or needing to prove myself, like I said, or whatever, that the power needs to show up?
or feeling like the defense mechanism of my power needs to show up versus the actual fullness of my strength. And that's really hard. It's really hard to have that kind of self-reflective presence just even as you're walking into the room.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, when I actually leave, I'm just curious then, based on that, I just imagine a bunch of guys listening to this are not even at the point where they're able to like, recognize whether it's their power strength showing up in that moment. It's more so after the fact, like, crap, I just.
Chris Bruno
Before.
Cody Buriff
What are some like indicators, maybe even just for yourself, but maybe we can relate to them if nothing else. Like what are some of the little indicators that are like, oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, I'm starting to notice I need to call time out in my head and ask those questions of who's showing up.
Chris Bruno
I think a great indicator is the countenance of the face across from you. So what do you read on the face across from you and whether again, it's your wife, it's your kids, it's your coworker. When you watch their countenance, is their countenance crestfallen? Is their countenance defensive? Is their countenance ashamed? Are you bringing some level of like pointed shame to them? And so watching the countenance of the other person,
So that's one thing on the external. the internal, for me, I don't know about you, we should hear a little bit about you. When I start to feel inside my body, the kind of a clench, and it's like a clench in my chest, that's like, got it, like, I need to make something happen, I can't handle this, I don't like them, whatever it is, there's this clench inside of me.
then I know that I'm preparing to pounce with my power versus like resting in my own strength. Like we're going to be okay. I'm going to be okay. They're going to be okay. How can I wisely step into this versus I just got to make something happen. So that clench and I, I'm, wish I could say it in a different way. When I say the word clench, other people think of other body parts that clench a little bit, but you know, it sits here inside of my chest. Yeah. So
That's the kind of prepare to pounce posture for me that happens when I'm tempted to bring power instead. Yeah. What is it for you? Yeah.
Cody Buriff
Jim's
Yeah, I, and again, like I'm still learning this, you know, for sure. And messing it up all the time. But I think when I'm able to like, be aware, I notice that like my jaw gets clenched. Right? You know, I'll notice my arms might cross or my, you know, my body posture will kind of go into like a blocking sort of...
Chris Bruno
Thank
Okay.
Cody Buriff
away from sort of thing or those are indicators for me if I can notice them. It's like, wait a second, like, love is not showing up right now. It's protection showing up right now. The self protection and whether that is me again, like you said, needing to take charge and just call the shots and make the things happen or defend myself in some way or
make sure that I look good in some way, you know, because I'm afraid that I'm going to look stupid or, know, whatever it is, like, those are some indicators where I have to ask myself the question, like, am I actually loving this person I'm interacting with right now? And no, if that's the case.
Chris Bruno
Yeah. Yeah. I think you just mentioned the words, you know, your posture changes. And I feel like that's a great term. Like when you become aware that posturing needs to happen in some way, right? When I need to posture, that's not strength. And you also then said, you know, love is not present. And, and immediately I thought of the, you know, first Corinthians 13 passage that, you know, love is patient, love is kind. Nowhere does it say love is clenched. Yeah.
So that clenched feeling, whether it's your jaw, your chest or whatever, then that's a pretty good indicator that, the strength, the love that is the result of masculine strength can't be present when we are clenched.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, that's good.
Chris Bruno
I love also Cody that, you know, back to the clip with Kathy. I love hearing from a woman like her who is, she is such a strong woman and such a like brilliant woman and she has so much goodness to bring and she still says, we need men, I need men to be fully man and not to apologize for their manhood. And there's something about that that just feels like, thank you for saying that. Like, thank you.
Because I do feel like what we are often apologizing for is the manhood that is that broken mass, that power masculinity. And we give over our strong masculine because we're so afraid of it being power masculine. And she's like, no, we actually need, we actually need your strength.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, it's like freeing an invitation. Yeah, she even said I think there at the end of something like, there's something beautiful about a man who can be confident in his masculine. I'm not sure how she said it. Yeah, confident in his manhood. Yeah, it's interesting because I think, you know, we think of women, and we think a confident woman, like, that's like a turn on, like,
Chris Bruno
Yeah.
Cody Buriff
That's a what's the word I'm looking for? Arousing, like in a good way. Like confidence is good. Someone who is confident in their beauty. And for us to think about that, a man as being confident in his manhood as being beautiful. Like, that's not how we usually think about it. It's really good to say it though.
Chris Bruno
Come
Yeah, and even the word confidence, literally when you break down the word, it means to have faith with, right? So I am having faith with the God who made me in the way that he made me, right? I have faith that God did not make a mistake in making me the man and so I'm gonna fully inhabit that manhood. And in the same way, a woman, like I have confidence that God made me to be this woman that he made me to be and so I'm gonna bring my womanhood.
in that same kind of way, like that is really attractive. back to what I was saying, it's very necessary. It's necessary for the world to have your strength as a man, your full manhood.
Cody Buriff
That's the way we were made to be, like fully alive, fully present, showing up in who we are and the way that God made us to reflect his glory. anytime we're pulling away from that, backing off of that, whether it's out of fear of that we're going to look stupid and we're not enough or that we're going to hurt people because we're too much, like either way when we're pulling away from the actual strength, the actual design that's put in us, everybody misses out. We all lose.
Chris Bruno
Yeah, yeah. I think it's interesting too when you think about strength. So a lot of shame researchers, including Brene Brown, have talked about how when a speaker on stage offers a level of vulnerability and that vulnerability is evident to the audience, the audience does not read that vulnerability as weakness.
Cody Buriff
Yeah.
Chris Bruno
The audience reads and experiences that vulnerability as strength and courage and bravery. And so when we're talking about, you know, bringing that strength, it doesn't always have to look like muscled up. It often can look like I'm going to be strong enough to be vulnerable. I have enough courage to welcome you into the most broken parts of my life and story. That is actually strength as well.
And I think masculine strength that is vulnerable is very different than weakness. And we're so afraid of looking weak that we sacrifice vulnerability on the altar of the fear of being weak that we then lose out on some of the greatest ways that we can be strong.
Cody Buriff
Yeah. That's good. What are some other ways that strength can be brought to the table? How can that show up practically for a man in this world?
Chris Bruno
there's so many, right? There's so many ways. I want to go back to the word confidence. And here's the thing. Confidence does not mean that you always know what to do. But confidence means that you have the courage to ask the questions. That's masculine strength. Like, I don't know what to do here, but I'm bringing my strength, bringing my manhood, bringing my masculinity, not because I know what to do all the time, but because I'm willing to ask the question.
I'm willing to wonder, right? So that's one way to bring some of that strength, be willing to ask the questions. You mentioned the word silly a little while ago, right? That there's a level of confidence, like, I don't really even care what you think about me. Right? There's a strength in that. But then also just some of the other, the willingness to step in, even when you don't have the answer or you don't know,
but your willingness to take that first step. I think so many guys feel like they either need to go back to my words, steamroller bulldoze in, okay, we're just gonna be bull in a China shop. We're gonna run in there and just like plow through. And I think we learned some of those plays in football, right? Just gonna plow through the defensive line. We're just gonna push through versus actually just take a step in, just take a step in a direction.
And be willing to be wrong. Be willing to go, OK, that wasn't the right one. Let's try another one. Let's try another one.
Cody Buriff
good. do you? Well, I just I think what's hitting my mind right now is, you know, we talked about how men as boys receive these messages, you're too much, you're not enough. Don't be emotional. And then like later in life, I think you call it the zealous warrior stage. the book stage, we do charge in often, not everybody does. But like I did, let's put it that way. I charged.
Chris Bruno
you think.
Cody Buriff
I wasn't the bull. I was the rhinoceros in the china shop. yeah, steamroller and bulldozer. Like I have heard those terms applied to me and at that time in my life, you know, my 20s. And often that then results and this is what happened for me is it resulted in people feeling hurt. And that was never my intention. Like I wasn't intending to cause harm or pain or anything like that. But people experienced that.
And I just wonder like for guys who have have charged in gotten hurt. Now they're, you know, not only are we dealing with the message of like, you're not enough or you're too much now it's like, you know, when you show up, hurts people. just, I'm aware of the like difficulty of again, needing to figure out how to drag yourself back to the table, back to the room, back to the people you care about and show up in strength, not power.
in a way that is actually reflective of the desires of your heart, what's actually inside of you.
Chris Bruno
Yeah, I love that you said that Cody because so in counseling terms in relationship terms, right, there's the issue of rupture, which you're talking about, right? There is spend some kind of harm that has been done. Something has ruptured in the relationship or you've done something to someone because of how much of a rhinoceros you were. Okay, so there's rupture, but then there's also the second term is repair. And
Of course we want to make sure to learn how to not rupture. But the reality is we all do to some degree. And over the course of a lifetime, you want to hope to minimize the rupture more and more and more. So you grow in maturity, right? However, power is in rupture and strength is in repair. And so to show up back to the relationships that you have ruptured,
with a strength that says, was wrong, you were hurt, I am so sorry, and I will do what I can to mend the relationship and own my responsibility and work together with you to mend the relationship. That is so much more strength in your masculine self, right? Than even the power was when you first ruptured. That is the showing up of a real man when he can repair what he has ruptured.
Cody Buriff
That's good. I feel like I see the rupture happening both in the bringing of the power and in the disowning or pulling back. Both powering down and powering up is one the phrases we like to use to result in the rupture and the strength is when you show up to repair what's been broken.
Chris Bruno
Yeah,
Cody Buriff
guys, that kind of stuff is what we're talking about in the restorative manhood summit. And so again, we're going to be interviewing scientists and psychologists and spiritual leaders and a bunch of different people, really cool people, fighter pilot, like, yeah, around these ideas of what it looks like to show up authentically, or verbally, and with actual strength and confidence in restorative masculinity. So
Check it out. Restoration project dot net slash RMD summit. Okay.
Chris Bruno
There it
is. Yeah. Guys, looking forward to seeing you there.
Cody Buriff
Thanks Chris, that was really really good.
Chris Bruno
Yeah, good to be with you, Cody. So this is fun. You and I should do more podcasts. And like I said, screw Jesse, he's fired. No, we can't can't fire. We can't fire him. He's both of our boss. So yeah.
Cody Buriff
Sounds good.
All right,
take care.
Chris Bruno
Okay, bye.