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The fun & fascinating stories of Supply Chain & Logistics.
Bryndis 0:03
Hi, my name is Bryndis Whitsen, and you're listening to the Zebras to Apples podcast, the fun and fascinating stories of supply chain logistics. Today's episode is with Norman Poon, co-founder of BitWide and instructor at Bow Valley College. Norman has worked in a wide variety of industries, mainly in HR, some in banking, but also in healthcare, in retail, so a wide variety of experiences. And how does that figure into supply chain? Because, every industry has their own systems. There's needs for employees that we don't necessarily think of. What are the skills needed in someone doing stock and inventory versus someone working in cashier or sales? Sometimes a little bit of a different strategy is needed. So that's part of the conversation that I have with Norman. Please join me with my really good friend, Norman Poon. Okay, I am here with Norman Poon, and so Norman and I met when we were in grade 11. That was a few years ago now, and it feels like yesterday in my mind, and we met at a summer camp for political geeks, and just kept on chatting ever since, and kept in touch over the years. Norman went to the University of Alberta, and I went to the University of Calgary, and then you kind of got into many different paths that lead you to this path that you're here today too.
Norman 1:51
Very much. So very much. So life's been interesting.
Bryndis 1:55
So, you took at university- You took business, correct?
Norman 2:00
Correct.
Bryndis 2:01
Was it a focus on anything in particular?
Norman 2:04
My focus was on HR with a minor in organizational behavior.
Bryndis 2:15
I think people, for the most part, kind of understand HR. But what is organizational behavior?
Norman 2:21
Organizational Behavior, really where it is, is that it is study, discipline, on how people behave in a group, within an organization. So you're looking at teams, how teams behave, and generally speaking, what happens is that organization will be for a lot of time. Generally speaking, you start off with how a person is. Generally speaking, most organizations start off by looking at the person and what motivates them, and then extrapolate that all the way up into a team setting, where they're part of a small group, are they part of a bigger group, and where they're part of an organization. So you kind of see how they kind of evolve. And you also studied there how at each level, the culture of that, the culture of the person, affects the whole picture. So ultimately, every organization is a mixture of individual or combination of individuals, and combination of bigger groups of individuals to establish an organization. That's generally where it is. And then how do you work within those groups? How do you motivate them or demotivate them, and how do you pick the right groups of people? So that's generally organizational behavior in a very short sense.
Bryndis 3:39
Okay, but I can see, just in, like some of the presentations you've done over the years, how the organizational behavior kind of filters in and factors in too.
Norman 3:53
Very much so. I think one thing that I've always said is that, I mean, we all are looking for a place to find home. We all, we're all looking for a place to fit in. And that's really where it is. Is from a personal level, you're looking for a place, a team, a company, that aligns with your values, your lines, and then a lot of it is driven by the leaders of the group and from the very front line, very directly to all the way up to leaders that you really would never meet them, but yet you kind of know them so there's that element as well, and a lot of that would be driving and all that starts from a lot of organizational behavior as well as, how do you motivate and manage yourself all the way up to being that leader. How do you motivate and manage people who are quite far away in terms of hierarchy?
Bryndis 4:48
Fully, and when you look at it too, because, like, the example I was thinking of is you were talking about how you're an extrovert. And, if you're in a more quiet environment, one might not be the right fit.
Norman 5:07
Correct. And I think there's that, I think there's that organizational fit perspective, team fit perspective. But you also, I think what else you also see is that there's societal bias towards certain types. So extroverts are always seen as better leaders, which is not true. There are a lot of amazing introvert leaders. They just learn how to be leaders within their own personality. But extroverts, frankly, can be very terrible leaders too. S I think there's that. I think there's the element of what that is again, well, it's organizational fit, Team fit. And what are you looking for within that team?
Bryndis 5:48
Yeah. So after university, was banking kind of your first stop, or was there somewhere else?
Norman 5:56
Banking was my first job coming out of university. That was a very interesting experience. That's probably an area where organizational fit was terrible for me in terms of fit, but I think I learned a lot that I managed to use into my future career. I think the banking culture wasn't for me. I think it's me not fitting into the banking culture. And I think banks are great. I mean, banks pay well, they're good companies. It just wasn't what I like or what I excel in. It was very, I mean, driven, very risk averse. And those aren't necessarily environments that suit my personality. And that doesn't mean I can't do a better job. It just wasn't very suitable, something that I enjoy doing, exactly, but also with banking, they also I also learnt how to navigate small towns, rural Alberta, and that was an interesting experience that ultimately I would probably never believe it when I first joined the bank, but that experience helped me for in the future as well, in terms of different careers.
Bryndis 7:09
So once banking, then you kind of got more into the HR realm for a bit. So where did you go from there?
Norman 7:18
So from banking, and I mean, we guys speak out. Then I came back to Calgary, and stepped into retail management. So I learned about retail for what was now the oldest company in the world, Hudson Bay Company. That was an interesting experience.
Bryndis 7:36
Oh, right. It was.
Norman 7:40
I was there during their first prioritization, and there's a lot of things that I felt was interesting, again, that was a corporate culture, that was a totally different corporate culture. And then what you have is that you have three very different corporate (cultures). Even within one company, you have three very different corporate cultures within that company and how they operate and how they see the world. And that was quite interesting. And how their corporate culture compared to other retailers' corporate culture as well. I know you do a lot of supply chain. That was always interesting to me, as I always joke that I'm always one season ahead of everyone, because their products come in a lot earlier than everyone else expected. So we were setting up for, we're always setting up for the next season before one season is over.
Bryndis 8:32
Exactly, and you all probably also see this other season, because you have to order the if not the next season or the season before that.
Norman 8:40
That was actually, I was at the Hudson Bay Company. That was a lot more systematic. So it just shows up. Frankly, it just shows up. Interestingly, when I left the Hudson Bay Company and worked for Rona, there was a lot of the seasonal aspect, and was a lot more store driven. So that was a lot more interesting for what we ordered on a seasonal basis. So there's a lot of core items that we really have no control over. Those are the core stuff that you got to carry. But there are other elements where it's a lot more and because we were a smaller store, we didn't have to carry everything within the Rona catalog. So there was lots of that. Okay, which vanity do we think would sell? So we would bring more those in and or which product we think would sell, there's a lot more control over that as well. That was interesting,
Bryndis 9:32
Yeah, well, in a previous podcast episode on groceries, they were saying, Ron was saying that there's actually like different tiers of stores within the types. And so what you might get at a tier one or B or two store would be very different from what you would get at the big stores too.
Norman 9:58
Grocery was especially tricky because you also have to want to- key thing him about groceries is, again, there's your core item, your core staple item, but all those stuff that the grocery store would the food side would order that wouldn't order that would be very much tailored to the people that you serve in the neighborhood that you're in. I mean, although I never worked for them, I remember a story that someone told me about Holt Renfrew. So for clearance, I don’t know what they did with that time, I'm not sure they still do now, is that they group certain sizes. So because of the large Asian population in Vancouver, and the stereotype of Asians being slimmer. Well, the small and extra small, they concentrate a lot more out into the West Coast than, say, the other store or they tend so there's that element as well. Where, where the certain products get redistributed based on the needs. Oh, I think another great story. I think like Lululemon, I'm not sure they still do, but at one point, Lululemon would manage to monitor their social media, and if someone's commenting that certain (items) run out, they would respond to it. But again, I don't know how true that is, but yeah, I've heard those stories where lots of times companies would respond to what's desired stock and stock up that way.
Bryndis 11:27
Well, it's an interesting thing that kind of brings up, that reminds me of that brand loyalty kind of piece, when you know Fitbit was new to the market, to assist in brand loyalty, plus it was just really good, I thought, at the time, really good business sense. Is if you're- because it happened to both me and my mother, because it was brand new technology at the time, and both times our when our Fitbit died, it was within a year, but near the end of the year of purchase and Fitbit, without even questioning, without even worrying, would immediately replace it.
Norman 12:08
Yeah, I wonder what companies do that. I think Nordstrom, at one point, was well known for their customer service. Costco, it's well known for the customer service where, if you basically, you can return almost anything, no questions asked within reason, but almost no question that. I think there's a philosophy to that as well. I mean, I think that it is dependent on the clientele as well, that the clientele may not be the one who goes all the way to abuse the generosity either. So there's also that as well.
Bryndis 12:46
Although, just as a fun aside my parents house, I in the process of sorting through a lot of different things, and there's some Kirkland pants or shirts and stuff like that, but with the tags still on, but they're much, but they've been definitely not the seasons, or, you know, the seasons for the last five years or so. But people, some people, just go back to Costco and see if they'll return it. I'm like, No, I I think that one's pushing the limit,
Norman 13:17
And that's exactly it. I think a lot of time people have talked about where Costco, I mean Nordstrom, I think there's a story from Nordstrom where Nordstrom does not carry auto parts. There's no doubt about it. But one person decided to test Nordstrom’s return policy because Nordstrom took over an old store that used to be like a tire store. Sears is more like that. Someone said, return a tire, and Nordstrom decided to accept that return, which is quite fascinating, but yeah, again, I think there's that element to it, saying, what is the price of brand loyalty, and what is the price of that loyalty to you? And at what point do you say? Yeah, this doesn't make sense anymore.
Bryndis 14:03
What I was saying with Nordstrom, they would actually call and, you know, ask when you just purchased a few weeks ago, is it now on sale or the price is reduced. You know, just come on back. We'll actually give you the reduced price too.
Norman 14:20
Yeah, I mean, I think that's always been a question, whether someone should do that, that's a smart decision, and how much that loyalty is. I mean, one of the strategies, and this was before my time, one strategy that they implement at The Bay to help returns. Now, do you know the term wardrobing right? So wardrobing means where people try on the product like that, not to try on. They bought a dress, or they bought a shirt, and they wore it to whatever. And then, once they're done with it, they return it back to their store. And so that's called wardrobing. So one thing that debated I heard, story went. Is that what they thought was the quickest way for them to reduce return? At one point, the sales people were taught, if you don't like it, just return it. They told the sales people not to even say that. Just drop that line. That, in itself, reduced the return rate. I don't know how many percent that was significant, just by asking them not playing that seat in their customer's head,
Bryndis 15:21
Huh? Interesting, yeah, yeah, that, that's really fascinating, that possibility, just that one or two changes of phrase, that kind of can change someone's mindset.
Norman 15:34
Oh, totally, totally. I mean, love it is, we're humans. Humans are imperfect. We have psychology. So the question becomes, how do you make sure that psychology doesn't go to your advantage?
Bryndis 15:48
Yeah, exactly, yeah. And so when you were looking kind of in that kind of retail space, whether it was at The Bay or Rona, what kind of when you were looking for hiring, because there's so many different roles, whether it's, you know, cashiers, stockers, maintenance, like all of the different roles, was there different skill sets that you were looking for for different roles?
Norman 16:13
I always joke that for cashiers for customer service, I always love hiring people for a short memory, because, if you have a bad and if you because sometimes you don't always have positive interaction with customers, sometimes you have very negative or very confrontational. What you need is people that let that go very quickly to serve the next customer. Because sometimes, but if that bad, one bad interaction with a customer is going to drain you for the rest of the day, that doesn't work either. So you need people who are able to shake it off. Now, sometimes there might be very, I'm not saying there hasn't been very negative interaction that people just need to step away, and that's equally okay as well, but ultimately they need to be able to recover and move on a lot quicker, while for law stalking, looking for a lot more detail orientation, because you're looking for that cleanliness, that ability to follow instructions, because sometimes the instruction is very specific. It might not seem like it, but how many units across, and how many units deep? Lots of time is pre planned. Well, these stores have mock store up where they have the exact same shelf in there, and this warehouse that they that they know, okay, you can put, you can put how many of these products cross and then fit so and then, actually, even they would also say, Okay, on a pegboard, you put the first peg, how many pegs in, and then you have to see how many space for the next peg and how many space for the next peg. So they actually and how many peg down before you do it. Or they would be like, on this shelf, you can on this hanger, you can only fit 10 units. So don't put more than 10, or else things start to drop. It doesn't work. So there's a lot more. There's not just, ‘here’s the box, hang as many as you can’. All the time. There is madness to it. So there's that element to it, which hanger hangs what? Those are all stuff that comes into play. Oh, yeah, a lot of it. There's a lot more science to it than probably what most people walking through a store would give it credit for or think about.
Bryndis 18:35
Yeah, that's really neat, just to think about and notice the next time you're going somewhere too.
Norman 18:46
Sometimes you actually see it. You don't see us often anymore, but sometimes you would sometimes, occasionally Walmart and stuff like this. They would post these. They would have someone working on a shelf, and they'll see them pull up what they call planogram, which is what that shelf should look like. So that in theory, every shelf of that size of store, that shelf would look identical to every store. So this product will be the second row, third column over, or the third product over it would have that. So there's a lot more. It's a lot more systematic than you think, right? And where Walmart is always superior, has been Walmart, and obviously Amazon is, but Walmart's probably a little bit more superior. Well, actually, no, it's different. It's where they're both really good. Is that predictive of all right, we need to make sure we have how many units of this product on the shelf, so it should never drop below X amount units. So as soon as it drops below that, it triggers the product to come in on its own. If it works, it's beautiful. If it doesn't work, then it's messy.
Bryndis 20:07
Well, fully, it adds that extra layer of complexity in those kinds of areas too.
Norman 20:14
Yeah, it is. And again, Walmart is probably the first one to do it. And Amazon just sticks into the next level where they really start to trigger all those stuff where every store is monetized, every item has an account, and obviously the goal is to make, and from the store perspective, is to make sure to count is as accurate as possible.
Bryndis 20:33
Yeah. Well, I remember this one time watching a documentary, kind of about Walmart, and they were kind of talking about all of the different things, and when you purchase something, then it immediately goes to at the time, because this was a few years ago now, went to, you know, the big database in Atlanta. And then they would make the all the big analysis, and they would use that analysis to plan for, you know, major weather events, let alone just like-
Norman 21:02
Oh, Home Depot. Not Atlanta, Home Depot.
Bryndis 21:03
No, no. This was actually, this was Walmart.
Norman 21:06
Yeah, Home Depot. When there's a major storm coming in Florida, they ship as many plywoods to those areas as possible.
Bryndis 21:16
Yeah, fully. And at the time they would send bottled water and Pop Tarts. Pop Tarts were the biggest seller in that market during those kinds of times, or, you know, in the Maritimes, I'm sure they kind of stock up on chips right before, uh, major storms, where everyone can get their storm chips. So, yeah, you never know where those kinds of pieces are as they're analyzing things. So from kind of after you went to work in retail, you know, I think your next kind of role was working more kind of helping people or healthcare, in healthcare.
Norman 22:00
So that was yeah, that was interesting. Healthcare was a totally different beast. First of all, I was working within a unionized environment. So that was my first exposure to a heavy unionized position. That was interesting. Their supply chain is a little bit different. Obviously, a lot of the supply chain is making sure the right product is available to the staff. I think that's probably their bigger issue, ordering a sufficient amount of supply. I think it's more internal supply. It's more internal ordering than really about than really about making sure there's enough stock on the shelf. It's a very different type of supply chain for them.
Bryndis 22:45
Obviously, but you have to make sure that there's enough in any facility.
Norman 22:51
Correct. And I think some of them did. There was a central warehouse that kind of shipped things out to each site.
Bryndis 22:59
I just dawned on me, just in this moment, that those, like, long term care facilities or something like that, would have to have their own warehouse.
Norman 23:12
I mean, or to warehouse is loose, but-
Bryndis 23:15
Yeah, I mean, but I meant to an extent of, like, at least something where you know, because you're always ordering this-
Norman 23:25
The probably easy parts are that they are constantly ordering the same thing. So that probably becomes a lot easier, because the certain product that simply goes through over and over again, while other products may not go through as quickly.
Bryndis 23:39
Yeah, well, and even when you're, you were setting up like new facilities and stuff like that too. There's all of those extra pieces that kind of go into that as well.
Norman 23:51
The timing of those pieces showing up because you need, and especially for large pieces, you need to go in before you close certain doors or close certain walls up.
Bryndis 24:01
Well, then, from the HR perspective, you also have to make sure you are managing the supply staff and bringing them in at the right moments too. And then training, yeah.
Norman 24:14
Generally speaking, that part isn't as hard, because there's very few people that actually come in beforehand. The question is, how much time do you need to do orientation and onboarding? So that's generally speaking. But again, you're not, you're not projecting too far ahead. A lot of it would be how much time you work with a lot of training team and onboarding team to talk about how many people you bring on at once. That's probably the more challenging aspect of it. I think where the challenge would be from an HR perspective, is, where do you go and find people? What's your preference for the location of where they're living? Again, right? I mean, one of the challenges that we had was that we opened up a new care center in Didsbury, which is about 45 minutes from Calgary, half an hour away from the north end of Calgary.
Bryndis 25:08
Yeah, it depends on how fast you're driving.
Norman 25:10
Depends how fast you're driving. But the issue here is that, then we'll go back to the org culture perspective. Is there a culture element that that of people working in rural Alberta, that is very different from people working in urban Calgary, even suburban Calgary, right? And then on top of that, you also have people who have never worked in rural Alberta. So they're other, more newcomers. So that, in itself, is a culture shock working within, and that, I think that was where my time working in rural Alberta kind of helped play the role. Say, You know what? This doesn't quite work, or I know what some of the struggles that these people will face working in this environment, because it's a whole new, different beast. This isn't saying that Calgary is better than small town Alberta. It's just there's certain things that within small town Alberta are different that they have to be aware of, versus certain things is and vice versa. A lot of people from rural areas come to Calgary, they don't like that there's a different culture as well. Some of them survive, some of them thrive, and all of them just don't like it either.
Bryndis 26:00
Well, and you have to kind of adjust for all of that too. And you know what kind of you know, similar question to retail. Of course, there's a wide variety of people you're hiring for within healthcare, from nurses to people in the kitchen to, you know, everything in between. But what kind of different types of personalities are you kind of looking for too?
Norman 26:52
It's interesting, for healthcare, I think A. I think what else has to come into play, because I worked in continuing care. Continued care is a very western concept. In the eastern concept, you look after your elders at home to the best of your ability. Putting your mom in a home is seen as How dare you, so. Part of the challenge now is when we hire a lot of newcomers from Asia to them, they struggle initially with the whole concept of continuing care. So again, the question becomes, how do you educate them that not putting your mom or your dad and continued care is not you being a bad kid. It's because mom and dad need a certain level of care, a certain level of safety, that you know that staying at home is actually putting them more at risk. But again, that requires a culture change in education that sometimes we take for granted.
Bryndis 28:01
Yeah, well, and, you know, just as an aside, I don't know when I had this conversation with someone, but we were talking about different cultures, but also for comforts of home or food and stuff like that, and making sure that various cultures are also kind of occasionally represented in the food system, in the meals that are provided, because not everyone has always eaten the same meals. And so if you've always had a certain diet, and suddenly that diet is no longer even on the menu, that also leads into a whole bunch of factors.
Norman 28:52
Oh, for sure, that's part of the challenge that everyone's facing is, how do you do, I mean, let's talk about, I mean, during COVID, I volunteer for not for profit, and one of the things that they, they were concerned about was making sure Chinese seniors have access to being delivered rice. I mean, because they couldn't, they couldn't go and get it, or they would struggle to go and get it at stores that rice became a major issue, or become a major thing, making sure we get the right thing. Because, again, food hampers are great. Food security is great. But delivering the wrong type of food to the wrong audience becomes- Actually, speaking of food security, it's really interesting, because the whole 'How do you manage food?' I think I was reading the Vancouver Food Bank. I can't remember. It's like 50 or 70% of their food is fresh. So, yeah, which is unreal, because they're able to manage that high. And I think their CEO is culinary, educated, so can't remember, is a former chef, and so is so sometimes what they have done is sometimes they have leftover product, produce that it's about to go bad, or they need to get rid of it. They need to use it. But what they've done is that they actually turn it into salsa or whatever. Because, again, he's a-
Bryndis 30:19
Wow. That's amazing. A good way to utilize, yeah, the food distribution, especially when it's about to go bad.
Norman 30:29
Yeah, it's about to go bad. So and how they manage to distribute fresh produce and fresh protein, which is always a challenge for food bank, and that itself requires certain element of supply chain management and managing your inventory to a very high level, because, because lot of places struggle to making sure a you want to making sure they kept us being kept in the right environment, and get rid of them quickly enough and buy it at a right price.
Bryndis 30:57
Exactly well, and when you look at, you know, just thinking back to COVID, and I think it was the Vancouver Food Bank. I could be wrong, because it's been a few years now since then, but there were all of the cruises that were canceled. Yeah. Well, what do you do with the food that was ordered six months ago for the crew season that's now not going and I think a lot of it got donated to the food bank. And so there was, like, lobster and Wagyu beef and like, really high end groceries that were being then donated to the food bank for people to kind of utilize. And I always thought that was a really good way to give back, but also to utilize the fact that there were multiple cruise ship lines that didn't go anywhere for a while, but the food had been ordered six months earlier, because they have to think that far out.
Norman 30:57
But now you also have another issue. Now we look in the states with this whole tariff situation, people weren't pulling triggers on Christmas items from China. So yeah, we'll see how. And then again, that would affect the whole supply chain, because there may not be enough Christmas trees ordered, or any (at all).
Bryndis 32:04
Yeah, and you don't know where those different pieces are too? So yeah, it'll be an interesting kind of time to see, as we but we'll say fascinating, just to make it easier, yeah, but when you look at that, those kinds of pieces, and you know, when you're so from healthcare, HR, you moved into BitWide. So tell us a bit more about that area.
Norman 32:55
So one of the things that I wanted to do, one thing that was always frustrating me about being HR. No matter what I do, I am always seen as an expense. I can be the world's best HR person. Yeah, I will always be on the expense side of the ledger. And I'm like, You know what? I want to be on the revenue side of the ledger. That was where I had a little bit more control and control of my own destiny. I think that the downside being HR is I can be the world's best HR person, or I again, the thing that frustrated me was, no matter how hard I work, I get none of the credits and all the blame.
Bryndis 33:38
Similar to supply chain.
Norman 33:41
Yes, correct. So the question becomes, how can I make myself into a revenue generation side? So BitWise allowed me to really start driving on the revenue side? Because, again, recruitment is recruitment. That's what we were. We were an IT recruitment firm. We started as an IT recruitment firm. And really that allows me to control my own destiny. When I was in corporate HR, when the phone rings at 5pm there's really no direct correlation between my work and my results. So again, going back to organizational behavior, it's about linking motivation, linking reward. How do you reward the correct behavior? Yes, I realize it's 5pm you know what? If you call me at 5pm I'm just gonna let it go to voicemail because I'm busy and I'm out of here, versus in recruitment, my phone rings at 5pm I'm picking it up because that's business and that's and that that potentially, if I close that deal, there's a direct correlation to my reward. So I am incentivized to pick up the phone at 5pm versus in corporate, I am not-
Bryndis 34:48
Exactly, because you gotta just keep on.
Norman 34:50
So that's exactly it. So, that was it. So what happens? Ultimately, what we have learned throughout my years at BitWise is really understanding, what is that motivation and how do we become a good partner to our clients? So what we realized initially, very early on, and one thing kind of led to another, was what we realized was the old recruitment model doesn't make sense, especially in our current state of technology. The reality is, if you can't find that talent, chances are external recruiters like myself can't find either, unless it's very specialized, then you need a certain network. But those are fun fires but generally speaking, they aren't. So the pain spot that we realized for our clients was that it wasn't the lack of, even though they perceive it as a lack of talent, that's what they need is. But their pain spot wasn't a lack of talent, it was lack of capacity to either do their search, do the screening, and then and then having someone to advise them on the process. So that's really where, that's really where we believe this is painful, and that's why most companies hire recruiters, not because they can't find the right people. It's that they don't have the capacity to do it themselves. So where we evolve into is how we become, how do we solve the pain spot rather than the solution that isn't what people thought it was needed, and that was really what it is. And we kind of, what's interesting is that, again, going back to supply chain, we took, we always show, we did the reverse. We did the reverse Netflix model, because Netflix started off with capping saying, Okay, you paid this amount. You get how much DBT you get now, as you can watch as many movies you want, or watch as much as you want, because it's streaming for one price. So we kind of went backwards. Most companies don't need to hire as many people as they want. They just, probably just for most of our clients, they just need a few a year or handful. So really selling them all inclusive or unlimited doesn't make sense, and it's too expensive. So we kind of went backwards. So, but ultimately, what happened was again, pouring in with that expert. So we learned two lessons very, very quickly. But one of the clients that we initially had had a lot of vacancy, and so part of our commitment that time was given a client guarantee that if you don't like us, within three months, you can turn and you can walk away, and that's kind of giving them that safety. But the unfortunate part about that one was, we were doing such a good job that the clients, like you know, we can get out of this contract within three months. They feel like 90% of our vacancy. We don't need them anymore. We can handle the last 10% ourselves. So we did such a good job-
Bryndis 37:57
That you worked yourself out of the job.
Norman 37:58
We worked ourselves out of the job. So there was that unintended consequence of that clause, yeah. So we learned that very quickly. So we evolved, obviously, and then what ultimately, what happened was we were talking to one of the tech CEO in Calgary, and ultimately the model makes sense, because you're really hiring a seasoned recruiter without having to hire them full time, so on the contract so where they would say, hey, if we can, we really love the model. So we need more sales to hire more people. And we jokingly said, if we get you more sales, Will you hire more people in a very self serving manner? And that's how we kind of fell into doing sales business. So strategy business is because of that concept we need more sales to hire more people. And we're like, well, we'll try to get you more sales. But that part became a bigger pain spot than recruitment on its own, is, how do we generate more revenue?
Bryndis 38:57
Fully and looking at all the because it's not just one part of the system. It's, you know, nothing's in a silo. Yeah, very cool. And then, on top of all of that, you're also now at Bow Valley?
Norman 39:13
Yes. So that's just me keeping- it's been a very interesting experience so far. So it's part of me keeping my HR side up. And also, what has also allowed me to keep learning and continue improving myself, learning new ideas, learning new theories, and bringing them back to my everyday life as well, everyday business as well. Because there's certain things that, again, going back to that theory and stuff. Because, again, how humans behave within teams, chances also, what? So how people motivate, how people act, doesn't change, whether you're working in sales or working in HR. There's a lot of similar behavior that happens. And so we kind of lost. Time implements some of the series that, yeah, I learned there, and then back into or remind myself those theories that I learned many years ago, and say, Hey, we can also apply it to sales, or how we work with clients, or how we help our clients gain more clients.
Bryndis 40:14
Yeah, exactly. And teaching people, like teaching students, those extra kinds of steps too, and giving back that way. And so if you were looking at your kind of career so far or but also looking at people kind of, so you know, starting with people kind of getting into the HR kind of world, what advice would you give?
Norman 40:43
I think, I think one career mistake that I'm not sure career mistake I had, but I think one thing that I would tell people, especially when you're early on assuming financially, person's capable of that, is worthwhile to wait a little bit longer or hold a little longer for the right first job, because the right first job really sets them up right a lot earlier, a lot quicker than they're kind of taking some other job and hopeful and hope that you make it into that area. I think there are others who have lost the strategy to set themselves up for that success, and I think we're there, and I think that's for most jobs as well. It's not just HR, but if, if you want to work in supply chain or this specific job especially, it's better to take what that natural progression is, rather than taking a detour and hoping you can swing back in. Now, some companies demand that you do that, or they make everyone go through a certain training. And that's, that's a company culture thing, and but for a lot of companies, they don't force people to kind of learn the basics of how that company works. At this disadvantage to that, I it's not, I'm not against it about the idea, but for a lot of people, I think it is better just to wait that little bit longer and see if they can land that right first step, then hoping that they go up a certain path and work their way back in, because that sometimes is a lot harder of a move than to say, you know, I'm just going to hold a to hold out a little bit longer.
Bryndis 42:24
Yeah, very true. Yeah, especially or but what I have also noticed, similar to your experience with, you know, working in the bank, and then, then you're recruiting for downtown, or not down, you know, you're recruiting for pisbury. You know, I look at this one time when I was just out of university, and it was before, like, I really, my first real job, and, you know, it was this, I spent the summer and part of the fall sitting in intersections, counting cars. And I thought, why did I go through six years of university to sit in my car and count cars? But in hindsight, it's this interesting process of like it took a few years to finally see it, but once I started working in the supply chain, it all clicked in, right? Because I understood the city in different ways. So I could have a different conversation about traffic flows, and I could have a different conversation about impacts of, you know, having a distribution center in the middle of a lighter commercial industrial area and what those impacts would be. And because I had sat at intersections and counted cars for that one, some you know, for that five months outside of university too, it's those moments where you're like, Okay, now I see it.
Norman 44:02
And that's very much it. I think that is, I think sometimes that is a great example. And I think again, I will talk about my first real job, working in a small town, Alberta, that helped me understand the recruitment process when I was going through disparate times. That, to me, was that was a lot, yeah, that allowed me to kind of say, Okay, this is how the game is played. This is what we need to do, versus slow people. Who's coming straight from Calgary had no idea how to work it. So I think that in itself, helped me out a lot.
Bryndis 44:48
What's the favorite part of your career that or some of the favorite parts that you've really enjoyed?
Norman 44:58
Um, I was, what's my favorite part of my career? I enjoy right now, all the freedom to put money where my mouth is. Every one of my decisions is driven by my own value, obviously my business value as well. But yeah, I think that becomes part of the challenge. How do I? How do I live my own values? Because of the decision, I have to live up to my own decisions?
Bryndis 45:29
I think that's really good, and it kind of accurately reflects you and really having that kind of commitment to service, but also having a commitment to testing out models, testing out ideas, and really seeing what sticks.
Norman 45:54
I think that's part of the challenge, is what sticks, and that is that's been interesting as well to see how it works, because it's not easy.
Bryndis 46:10
No, exactly. It's a different puzzle piece but all of those pieces fit into the bigger puzzle too.
Norman 46:17
And I think that's what it really is. I think one thing I always tell people in your career, every experience leads to something or can be used in the future. It depends on how you look at it, how you choose to work it. And I think that's the key thing is, how do you use what you've learned and built from there. Because again, I think again, I hate it. I don't say, Yeah, I would say, I wouldn't say working in small town Alberta was a dream come true, but I would say that it's played a major role in allowing me to learn certain things that I would have never been able to learn and see. Yeah, having that experience that I think that was very critical, and who knew I got to use it into the future.
Bryndis 47:11
Exactly, you never know where things might take you to. So exactly, I greatly appreciate your time, and I think it was a really good conversation, and I think it opened aspects of different areas that we might not think of too. So thank you so much.
Norman 47:28
My pleasure. Thank you very much.
Bryndis 47:33
Thank you for listening to this Zebras to Apples podcast episode. I hope you enjoyed the showcase of the fun and fascinating stories of supply chain logistics. If you liked this episode, I would love it if you could give it a rating and review more information about this topic. You can go to zebrastoapples.com or follow Zebras toApples on the social media platform of your choosing, whether that's Instagram, Facebook, Twitter X, Blue Sky or LinkedIn. You can support the show on Patreon. Also check out the show notes below. Please join me again for another episode of Zebras to Apples. Have a wonderful day.