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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
Feed Your Soul Or Feed Your Ego
00:00
Hey guys, welcome to another episode of the podcast by Jesse French. Actually, it's not my Jesse French. You are. That's awful. I believe it's so bad. We're keeping that one in. Oh, my gosh. OK, start over, everybody. Welcome to the podcast by Restoration Project. Wow. My name is Jesse French and I'm joined by Chris Bruno. Great. Hello, everyone. Hello. Wow, that was a rinky. Oh, jeez.
00:29
Yes, the struggle bus. Who else wants to join? How are you, Chris? Well, if anybody has any imagination that Restoration Project is a well-oiled machine, welcome to the reality of like, here's the cardboard. Here we are. Yeah. We don't even remember the names of the titles of things and what our names are. So yes, like you said, welcome. Oh, welcome. Here we are. Oh man. Well, we had the good fortune of
00:58
getting on the trail a couple of days ago and was able to go up into the mountains and just had a good day of hiking and just some awesome rich conversation. And in that while we were hiking, we talked about this just great story from a couple of years ago. And this is the way that I want to preface it. I think we've talked about it on the Forge before, but I am someone who owns horses, who appreciates riding horses. And you know,
01:27
Only the people will know Chris Bruno is someone who you don't own horses currently, but you are an avid horseman. Like this is true. I don't know that I would say I am. I have been. You have been. Okay. That's a good way to phrase it. Right. And so here's the big difference. I am a horseman. You are a rancher horseman cattle, like expert. Aspiring. You guys.
01:53
Listen, to you that are listening, I can see Jesse right now as we're recording. You need to know, like, Jesse is wearing, what is the shirt that you're wearing? That's a, it's just like a Pearl Snap. A Pearl Snap, that's the thing. It's a Pearl Snap button down shirt, or a Snap shirt. This is true. What kind of hat are you wearing currently? It's a baseball cap with the business name on it, King Ropes, which is a rope shop.
02:21
in Sheridan, Wyoming, which is a great, great little spot to stop in. Okay. What kind of jeans are you wearing? I can't see them, but like- Like denim blue. And I did have my boots on today. I'm just kidding, I'm just joking. I did actually like, my boots are polished and so they don't even have like towel crap on them. They actually are, they look halfway decent, so. Okay, so, and here's the thing. I didn't even know what kind of pants you were wearing, but I just assumed you were wearing denim. So there's that. And then-
02:49
What is this business on your face? The business that you're referring to is, I am attempting a mustache to which a good friend of mine likened it to if Tom Selleck had an ambitious little brother, this would be the mustache he would give. Which I'm like, that's a good description, that's very kind. That's very kind, it's very kind, it looks good. And the most important thing is that your wife likes it. She does, she is actually, yeah.
03:18
very surprising what she does. All this is just proof of the aspiring label, not the legit, it is just the aspiring. I don't know. We'll leave that to the public to decide. Thanks for the encouragement, I appreciate that. We'll leave that to the public to decide if the man who's wearing Calvary boots denim jeans, a pearl shirt, pearl snap shirt, Tom Selleck, little brother mustache and a king ropes hat.
03:43
fits the persona of someone who is an expert in the realm of horsemanship and cattle driving. All it means is the packaging might be accurate, but is there substance beneath? So whatever, we can't get into that part. You know that I'm just giving you crap. So you do. You do. And you didn't even call it an outfit to which my wife calls things outfits. And so thanks for not calling it that. Appreciate that. Well, it's a semi-outfit. Like it's not the full- Okay, go ahead and go there. Okay.
04:12
Thanks. Thanks. All that to say, there is a story. Yes. You have about some training that you receive. Yeah. So I brought the whole us enjoying horses piece because in the horse industry, there is a thriving, thriving part of that economy, which is the like continuing ed type of thing. Right. Like it's the how do you get better? How do you get your horse better? There's just, you know, thriving number of people that will offer.
04:41
clinics, which is where you actually go to an arena, right? And you have a teacher and you know, they, over the course of a couple of days, hopefully give you some tools to be a better rider and get your horse to a better place. And so a couple of years ago, my brother who is a horseman as well, he said, hey, you should come down to outside of Denver and we should go ride in this clinic put on by this guy named Buck Brannaman.
05:08
And some people might recognize that name. Buck Brannaman is the guy that the horse whisperer, the fictional book was actually based off of. And so he, he's like in his fifties or sixties and is one of the probably top three best horsemen in the world. Like the guy is at the truly elite level of the ability to work with horses, to solve problems, to develop a relationship with horses that is.
05:36
phenomenal. So he's incredibly well sought after. When someone around is like, we should go and ride in this in this clinic and was kind of terrified even at him bringing that up because you ride and, you know, he's there, you're in this big arena and there's probably like 20 people. And so you bring your horse. So all that to say, eventually I say, yes, we go down there. So it's the first day of the clinic and I were like warming our horses up and I.
06:02
My summer, my, my stomach is just doing somersaults, right? Like it's, it's to the level of nervous anxiety of like, before you have to public speak or, you know, before you have a concert, like it's to that level. Cause you're, you know, you're riding in front of other people and the best horseman in the world, like probably no exaggeration. Like Buck Brenneman is to Basketball as LeBron, Usta Horseman is LeBron James is to basketball. Yes. Okay. It's that level.
06:30
That's what I was asking for. Like help us that don't know who Buck is to know who Buck is by that kind of comparison. So that's helpful. Okay. So you're riding in front of LeBron James, right? Like you're shooting free throws in front of LeBron. Like that's the equivalent. And so, you know, the third time as I'm riding, you're I'm looking across and this isn't particularly helpful, but I'm watching other people with their horses, right? And I, you're totally placing yourself on the comparison ladder, right? Of, Oh dang.
07:00
That guy has his act together. That horse is super trained. He is five notches above me. Oh, there's someone else over there. Their horse is a trained actor. Like you're totally placing yourself in the comparison of how skilled you are, how skilled your horse is, right? And so you ride for a couple hours, gives such great feedback, and you're trying to soak it all up. And so the session is coming to an end and he kind of circles everyone up. And he says, he's kind of giving his final remarks. And he said, you know,
07:30
comparing yourself against other people is not particularly helpful. And I'm like, Oh, cause I just did that for three hours, you know, kind of like, gosh, it's like you've done this before. But then then he just says, he says this phrase that just wrecks me. He says, you know, and it's sort of unhurried, right? Like he's just not in a hurry to like, speak and share his wisdom. He's like, this is just going to come out gradually. And he says, you know, I've done this a bunch of years and
08:00
The thing that I've realized about this work of riding horses is it can feed your soul or it can feed your ego, but it can do both. Wow. Yeah. So you decide which one it is. And then he like, you know, offers the mic drop and then just kind of like rides off of the arena and it just is so true. Like he said that instantly just spoke so clearly to
08:29
Oh yeah, this can absolutely feed the deep parts of my soul. It has the potential to do that. Or it can just be a means to prop my ego up. And so I just, that phrase, I probably, I say it all the time. Cause I just, I love the way that he articulates that and the way that he frames that. Yeah. Oh, well, and what I love about that, Jesse is that he made it really clear that you have a choice. Yes. Like you are the decider of that. This is not.
08:57
the outcome based upon some other sets of circumstances is that it's actually you who have the agency over this. You have the agency over what this is going to feed. And I think another alternative that he might have thrown in there is, is it won't feed anything. So that's a possibility. True. But if it is gonna feed something, it's either gonna feed your soul or your ego. And I love that he gives us that awareness of the choice. Yeah. How Chris like...
09:25
And one of the things that I love about it too, is I think it's able to be overlaid, you know, in riding horses, in your work, like hobby, right? Like the, obviously the paradigm fits for any number of spaces. But I would just even wonder for you, like, when you think through those categories, where have you seen that at play, maybe most recently in your life of like this kind of this choice or this tension between something that nourishes your soul or props up your ego? Oh, that's.
09:55
How much time do we have? I feel like a thousand things just went running through my head. So you know that fall 2024, Beth and I became empty nesters. We finally transitioned. All three of our kids, our youngest just moved out. She's now in college and all that. The first place that my mind went, Jesse, in that is it feels so good.
10:25
to talk with them, hear about their lives, all that. This past weekend, I spent an hour on the phone with each of my daughters separately, an hour with one, an hour with another, and just soaked it up and talked. I'm literally imagining I'm sitting there just soaking in the goodness of hearing from them. And it doesn't mean that everything is going great. There's some things that are not awesome and all that, but just there's that and then.
10:54
texting with my son about various things. I sent him some stuff in the mail and he got it and he was appreciating like all that. So I've been soaking in the space of like, oh, right now some of the spaces that they're in is just really wonderful and beautiful. And I can choose to allow that to feed my soul, let it soak in and the goodness of God that I'm experiencing, or I can let it so, you know, feed my ego.
11:20
look at how awesome I am and look at how amazing my kids are because of how I've done in fathering them and prepared them and launched them and all of the things that you know my ego wants to be true but I know is so not true but I could allow even just for the conversations this weekend with the kids to feed my soul and take a deep breath and be full of gratitude for where they are and what's happening in their lives or I could take all the credit and yeah feed my ego.
11:50
Yeah, that's such a good one. I love that example because I think that's helpful because I think it highlights a couple of underlying maybe hints or keys to maybe understanding some of that. Because as you're talking about it, it feels like when we begin to attach to certain outcomes of like in this case, hey, my kids are doing really well. They're thriving in this space. Like positive outcome ABCD have been reached.
12:19
When that becomes primary, at least for me, it feels very easy to be in the ego propping space, right? Like when desirable outcomes are realized, then look, I'm so great, my ego is fed. Versus, it feels maybe, you know, the corollary or the opposite, right, of outcomes is, hey, when some of the deeper process, even when it's unresolved or when it's, in your words, like there's some challenging things happening.
12:49
even when that can be acknowledged and not numbed, but actually acknowledged, like then it feels, Hey, maybe we're into this nourishing of our soul space. And so, yeah, I love that piece. I feel like outcomes, at least for me, can be a helpful, yeah, helpful hint as to which one I'm going to let things feed. Well, and even in the moments, like if we're looking at outcomes, like you just said, and success, then success means that I did something right. And
13:18
there may be some aspect of that. Like that's, you know, you've put in the time, you've put in the work, you've put in the effort, you've put in the intention. And of course, the more that we do those things, we hope that we have an effect, an impact on the outcomes. But can even in the spaces where things aren't great, still feed your soul in the goodness of knowing, the goodness of being, and the gratitude of God, like all that stuff, it can still feed your soul even if the outcomes.
13:48
are not as wonderful as you had hoped. Yeah, yeah. And the challenges are there. So I feel like I think Mr. Buck has some brilliant wisdom in this because what you were kind enough to allow us to look behind the curtain a little bit is that when you stepped into the arena, the comparison automatically started. Yep. And I feel like that happens all the time, right? And I think some of it,
14:17
is it happens all the time because we are about feeding our ego. Yeah. When I step into, you know, the, the lobby at church, when I step into work meeting, when I step into, you know, earlier today I was speaking at a church that, you know, as church staff thing, like there's so many different things that when we step into, if we have the target to feed our ego, we will. But if we have the target to feed our soul,
14:47
then you get to be present. You just get to be and do and show up and participate in what is happening. If you're not looking at the ladder of where do you rank on the ladder of horsemanship or whatever, then you just get to be there with your horse and experience it and enjoy it and all that. There's not that pressure, internal pressure, I guess I would say to be dreaming. For sure, for sure. I'm agreeing with you and it feels really counterintuitive also.
15:15
Right? Like the comparison ladder, the comparison dynamic that you just talked about, right? Feels the default mode for so much of life, right? It's really objective, right? It's repeatable, right? It actually produces some sense of like, Oh, I'm okay. Right? Like my ego is propped up because I'm better than A, B, and C. Right? And so to choose in your words, to participate, to not sort of play and co-opt in that way of being.
15:44
That's that's a big shift. Yeah. And I wish I could say that I do it. Me too. Like, here's the irony too to that story. So he drops just this pearl of wisdom on day one. There's still two more days left in the clinic. And I wish I wish I could say right the next morning. I show up and I'm like, this is great. I don't have to prove myself. Yeah, my horse can buck me off into the stands and I don't care. Right. Like, no, I was still a nervous wreck and.
16:14
Right? Yeah. Like the dynamic was still there. Yeah. This is a deep dive into a conversation maybe that we need to have us another time in the podcast, but I feel like what's bubbling up inside of me is this automatic default in most men that we are not enough. Mm-hmm. That whatever we are is not enough, and therefore I need to compare myself to other men to prove that I am more than he is, so I'm not at the bottom of the not enough ladder. Yep.
16:43
versus having a posture of enough for what? Like who created the measuring stick and where did it come from and why are we even using it? I don't need to feed my ego because it's not actually a thing that we need to participate in. And that's why so much of the work that we do in Restoration Project is focused on helping answer the question, am I enough?
17:11
Am I man enough? Am I big enough? Am I smart enough? Am I wise enough? Am I whatever blank, blank, blank enough? It's a core question that has no basis. What question would you invite us to consider and respond to instead of that? Put me on the spot. I would say the am I enough question is about me. The reference point is not me.
17:40
the reference point is always God. Yeah. And so I wanna change the question from am I enough to whom do I reflect? Yes. Who do I reflect? And that is like, I am here, yes, it's still about me, who do I reflect? But the reference point is him, and so therefore, if I can live into that versus my enoughness, then the whole thing changes.
18:08
It's almost like a compass spins around a little bit and you're like, Oh, it's a whole other orientation. When my orientation is focused on versus myself. I love that because connecting it back to the initial categories, I think who do I reflect when, when we begin to ask that and we begin to wonder about that, that I would say that is so connected to like what feeds our soul. Like the fact
18:34
as we experience these things and can name these things like, Oh, my soul is fed when this happens, right? When we're aware of that. Now there's this uncovering of like, yeah. And that is because we are a reflection of the living God. Right. And I think there's an invitation to revel in that. Yes. Right. It's not leveling in my enoughness in my ego. It's a reveling in like, Oh, I get to reflect him. That's awesome. I'm going to love that. I'm going to jump into that.
19:02
You know, head first, like all the way. Yeah, I want that. And I think we jump into the ego thing because we're like so desperate. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And I think to just even with the whole like feeding metaphor, right? The feeding of your ego is like a greedy, ravenous like thing that we're trying to feed with like tootsie rolls, right? That's like, yeah, that works for four seconds. And then it's it's hungry again. And so.
19:32
I don't know if you've seen the movie Dune. No, I haven't. The movie's Dune. What? You haven't seen Dune? I know. Jesse, we just got canceled by half the people that are listening right now. I sort of lied. Yeah, I do. Oh, well, there is, you know, the giant sand worm that is massive that comes out of the desert sand. And all the time that the sand worm engulfs a person, I'm like, that is such a tiny little bit of calories for such a big monster.
20:02
That's what you're talking about, right? That is what the ego, it will in a moment, in just a flash, it will be, it'll be gone. And you'll need more and more and more. So yeah, wisdom from the horseman. The horseman. Good stuff. Yeah. Well, OK, so to close out for today, what did you learn at this?
20:27
What were some of the things that you, besides the, you know- Both the technical things I learned? Like besides the- Yeah, what was this clinic about? Oh gosh, Chris. Again, how long do you have? So this sounds so basic, but the foundation that he talked about is any sort of legitimate relationship between a rider and a horse revolves around the ability for the horse to yield its feet to the rider. Because when you think about it, right?
20:56
Horses are prey animals. They are animals who are used to being preyed upon. And so their most effective tool against predators is their feet. They can run away. That's their tool. So for them to submit, for them to say, I'm going to give you control over my feet. I'm going to yield my feet to your direction. Is this like huge, huge ask? Like we're asking them to say,
21:25
Yeah, give your number one tool in your arsenal over to me and trust me that I won't use that for harm. So with that as a foundation, the clinic was over and over. Like how do we control feet, not control, not from like a lording over, but how do we be able to influence movement to be able to time movement in ways that we want? And so it revolved around that, which, you know, it sounds so basic. And I remember as he was talking about it, I'm like, oh, wow, this is, it doesn't sound basic to me.
21:54
There's a lot to this. Yes. That sounds amazing. And it sounds like there's so many life lessons buried in all that. Yeah. So wow. Yeah. So for the people, there's a fascinating documentary simply called Buck. I used to be on Netflix. I'm not sure if it's on Amazon Prime now, but it is 90 minutes of pure gold built for the person who, it doesn't matter if you don't know anything about horses. And it just follows him around as he does this work. And it's amazing how.
22:24
analogous again, like what we've been talking about this whole episode, that the work that you do with horses actually is the same work that we do as people. So good stuff. Highly recommend. Okay. Go watch the documentary. Go do it. So Jesse, take care. We'll catch you next time. Thanks, Chris.