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You’re tired.
Not just physically; though yeah, that too.
You’re tired in your bones. In your soul.
Trying to be a steady husband, an intentional dad, a man of God… but deep down, you feel like you’re falling short. Like you’re carrying more than you know how to hold.
Dad Tired is a podcast for men who are ready to stop pretending and start healing.
Not with self-help tips or religious platitudes, but by anchoring their lives in something (and Someone) stronger.
Hosted by Jerrad Lopes, a husband, dad of four, and fellow struggler, this show is a weekly invitation to find rest for your soul, clarity for your calling, and the courage to lead your family well.
Through honest stories, biblical truth, and deep conversations you’ll be reminded:
You’re not alone. You’re not too far gone. And the man you want to be is only found in Jesus.
This isn’t about trying harder.
It’s about coming home.
Let me ask you a couple of questions, and these three questions changed my life. He said, how long has it been a problem, number one? And so I said, well, it's, it's been over 15 years at this point. He said, okay, number two, how many times have you tried to stop? And, and I actually laughed a little. 'cause I was like, well, every time was the last time, literally every time was it.
And I was never gonna do it again. If I'm being honest. I've tried to stop hundreds, if not thousands of times. And he said, okay, third question, is it causing you or people you love, significant amounts of pain? And that's where it got serious because I said, yeah, I, I think if I don't quit, my wife will leave me.
Hey guys. Welcome back to the Dad Tired podcast. My name is Jared Lopes. I am the founder of Dad Tired, also one of the hosts of the show. If you're brand new here, just wanna say welcome. We're a bunch of normal guys trying to figure out what it looks like for us to fall in love with Jesus and then help our families do the same.
Uh, we are serious about finding healing, whether that be from childhood wounds, our current addictions, or things that are tripping us up so that we can be the men that God's called us to be. And so if that resonates with you at all, we would love for you to come join us. Be part of this community. Um, you can go to da tire.com, click the community tab and you'll see ways that you can jump in and dive into what we have going on.
So, again, glad that you're here and would love for you to stick around. Um, if, if you're like me, you probably want to be in the word more and you feel like you get stuck on that sometimes or don't know where to start. Um, I've been joking with my friends that I'm going through a four year Bible reading plan, which is not really a Bible reading plan.
At least not one that I found. Um, I'm, I'm actually just reading one chapter of the Bible a day, and that is more sustainable for me. I'm not trying to rush through it. I'm not trying to like speed through things and just get through a checklist. I've found that if I just commit to reading one chapter a day, um, it allows me to kind of slow down, let the word of God really seep in more deeply, and for me just to not feel like I'm rushed and checking things off my list.
So, um, I, I think that the Dwell Bible app is one of, if not the best apps out there for you to immerse yourself in the word of God. And, and I mean the word immerse, like I'm, I'm intentional about using that word because it's not just letting you read, although. Scripture is power powerful enough that if all you did was read it, it would be awesome and it, it could change your life, but it allows you to really immerse yourself in the word of God.
So you can read it, but you can also listen to it. And they have lots of different ways that you can, uh, lots of different voices that you can do use to listen to the word. They also have music that you can put on the background while you're listening. So for me, I love to listen like I'm more of an audible learner.
Learner, and I'm guessing maybe you are because you're listening to a podcast. Um, so Dwell Bible app allows you to, you know, you can pick the voice, you can pick the speed, you can pick the, um, music in the background and just becomes a much more immersive experience. Beyond that, they have all kinds of Bible study tools and chapter introductions, and it's just very, very customizable, which allows you to have a much.
Full fuller experience when reading the word of God. So, um, I'm a lifetime member by choice. Um, they didn't just give that to me. I chose to sign up for life because I really believe in what they're doing and I'm just really enjoy using their app to get in the word of God every day. If that's something that you want to do, you can go to dwell bible.com/dad tired.
They're actually giving 50% off to their lifetime access right now, along with some other deals. Again, go to dwell bible.com/dad tired, you can check it out there and get more information there. That being said, let's dive into today's episode. I'm, I'm really excited to be talking with you today, man. Thank you for spending some time with us this afternoon.
Uh, I was just telling you, uh, before we hit record that this is my first interview back after being gone for several months. A lot of the dad tired guys know I've been out for the last several months just working through my own soul journey and, um, and so I, part of me feels like I feel some nerves as I'm coming back in, but, uh.
A lot of excitement as I'm sitting down with you today. So anyway, man. I'll just step outta the way. I'd love to for you to introduce yourself, tell us who you are and uh, what you're up to these days. Yeah, well, love being a guest and, uh, honored to be the, the first one back. So thanks for thinking of me.
Um, yeah. I'm Nick Stubo. Uh, my wife and I live just outside of Portland, Oregon. We have four kids, two girls, two boys, 20 17, 16, 13. So our life is very busy and active. Uh, for the last nine years now, I've been the executive director for Pure Desire Ministries, which is here to provide hope, freedom, and healing from sexual brokenness and betrayal trauma through Jesus Christ.
So our, our ministry emphasizes that in recovery, there's two sides. There's the one who's struggling, and then there's the spouse that's often impacted very deeply by it. And we provide group resources, uh, and when needed counseling for both, uh, the couple and the individual. And it's coming out of our own story.
I was a pastor for 15 years and in the midst of my pastoral career had to face my addiction to pornography and, um. While that was probably the most challenging year of our story, it was also the very best, as God used it, not only to heal me and our marriage, but then create a new healing pathway in our church.
And so that's, um, you know, why I'm at pure desire today is because it's my story. And so I'm both the director, but I'm also living out that story of, of healing and recovery. Man, that's really cool. Uh, I, uh. Before we dive into all that really good, like deeper stuff, I didn't, I didn't know you were in Portland.
That's right. I lived out there for 12 years before we, I'm in South Carolina now, but I was in Portland for, uh, 12 to 30. 13 years before that. Um, all right. You've covered both coasts then. That's impressive. I was trying to get as far as far away from Portland as I could. It got a little too crazy for me and my family.
Um, yeah, I guess maybe we could talk about that offline, but, uh, that'd be another podcast. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I, a couple things come to mind as you shared kind of your introduction to your story there. First is you said your addiction to pornography. I think, um. A lot of guys, you know, we're, we're primarily an audience of men who are listening to this.
Um, I would say 90 plus percent of those men would say they've struggled with pornography in some shape or form. They would admit to that, you know, I've been in this for this men's ministry space for the last 10 years. It's not really a secret. You know, usually when I speak at conferences or we do our dad Tiger conferences, most guys would pretty readily admit like, yeah, I've, I've struggled pornography in some way.
I think where guys struggle with what, what they struggle with is the word addiction that you used. And I think for most of us, we've kind of convinced ourselves. Yeah, I'm, I'm not really an addict. Like how, how do you, how did you personally get to the point where you're like, nah, I think I'm actually addicted.
And then how does the pure desire. Define addiction versus just, you know, I might look at porn probably more than I should. That's, that's a great question and jokingly, one of the signs of addiction is believing we don't have an addiction. Because very often when we struggle with addictive behaviors and really in anything, whether it's food, substances, alcohol, sex, pornography, workaholism, there's a layer of minimizing our behavior, rationalizing what we do, and denying that it is a problem.
And I really had to have a wake up call in my life, you know? So. Brief snapshot of my story. I grew up in a wonderful Christian home. My dad's a pastor. We had a very good home experience. Now, there wasn't any of this. Dad was one way in the pulpit. Then he was a monster at home. Like, no, I had a, I have a wonderful loving dad and safe home, but at a friend's house at about 10 years old, I saw adult content for the first time in my life that exploded this world of sexuality.
I really, at that point knew nothing about. Um, and in that moment as I saw, you know, nudity and sexual imagery for the first time, I knew there was something about me that, that desired it, that felt curious and wanted to see more. And because of that, I also felt very shameful because I believed it was wrong.
I shouldn't be watching this. And what's wrong with me, that I like it. And because of the, the environment of our home, we never talked about those things. I had no context in which to go home and. Tell mom and dad, Hey, I saw these things. What do I do with this? How do I make sense of what, what's happening in my body and my brain?
And so like so many people do when there's early exposure, I, I just kind of shoved it, kept it secret. And if you think about that becoming kind of the framework of my sexual experience, like I believe it is for so many Christian men, it was both secretive and shameful. So then in high school, you know, I'm, I'm in my mid forties, so in, in my day, uh, the internet wasn't quite yet what it is now.
And so my early access was to pornographic magazines. Uh, we would be on late night basketball road trips coming home in Montana. Every road trip was a late night road trip. Uh, get back from a late basketball game and I could stop by a corner store and buy a magazine and I would, I would act out to that.
And then I would feel just the wave of shame and regret and. Okay, Lord, never again. This was the last time and I'd throw it away. And that pattern would repeat itself every month, maybe every couple of months, maybe every couple of weeks. Um. And then I took that into college where the internet did start to become a thing and found that I could find those same images for free online and, and watch them and again, act out.
But then it'd be that same binge purge kind of cycle of, okay, that was so dumb, why I don't need this. I don't want this. Never again, Lord, that was the last time. But I carried that all through college and into marriage and into ministry, and I remember. Uh, when my wife and I got engaged, we attended a Christian college and at a chapel service.
The speaker said, Hey, before you get married, you owe it to your future spouse to air your dirty laundry. As they said it, you know that they should know everything about you so that when they say, I do, they know what they're saying. I do too. And. That made sense to me. I'm like, Hey, that's only fair. I don't want my wife to have any surprises down the road.
And so when we went out on a coffee date that night, I really, for the first time with her or another person, kind of opened up the whole closet of here's what I've been involved in. And she was very. Shocked. She was pretty naive at that time and surprised. And I remember she said, well, why don't you promise me that you'll never do those things again?
And I remember saying, so this is a 21-year-old young guy. I loved the Lord. I loved this woman like she was way out of my league. I knew it and I wanted to spend my life with her. But I remember saying these words. I want to make you that promise, but I feel like I've made that promise to God and myself many times before and it has a way of coming back.
So I'm gonna try really hard, but I don't know if I can make that promise to you. So already then there was something in me that knew if someone said, never do this again. I didn't know if that was actually possible. Right? And so I, I took that binge purge struggle into our marriage and for 10 years continued to act out occasionally by viewing pornography, you know, so now it would be online or on a smartphone, you know, delete everything, not keep anything, confess to God.
And on occasion, confess to my wife, like. Hey, it's still happening, but because I told her in engagement, it'd be like, you, you know, this was in my life before we even met. This isn't about you. It's not about our physical connection. It's just something I'm working on and it's, it's getting better. You know, I'd always try to tell her why it was getting better and why this would be the last time and.
She would do her best to forgive me, to believe me. But after 10 years of that pattern, her belief had faded to the point of my words were meaningless. And I, I remember she said at one point, she said, Nick, it's not that I hate you, but I hate the way this makes me feel. And because I don't know if it's ever going to change.
I don't know if I can stay around for that much pain. Wow. And, and I was really terrified by that because I could see I was losing her. I could see it in her eyes. I could see it in her words and her emotions, like she was starting to shut off parts of her heart to me. But I didn't know what else to do except what I'd been given as the pattern of just create higher guardrails and boundaries.
So never be online alone, never watch TV alone. Get rid of the smartphone, like guardrail, guardrail, guardrail, and just keep me away from the big, big, bad internet. Uh, but the truth that I knew. Was that nothing inside had changed. There was something going on in me that I couldn't figure out why I would end up in those places.
And I, I had this deep fear that I was only a moment away from being in the wrong place with the wrong access and the wrong motives, and I would act out again. And it could literally cost me everything. My marriage, my kids, my ministry. I didn't know what else to do, and it was in that season of what we call white knuckling it, that I'm just like, okay, try not to do anything stupid and ruin everything that we were at a conference for pastors in my denomination, and they had brought in Dr.
Ted Roberts, who was the founder of Pure Desire Ministries, and they offered this plan to help pastors who were struggling. They said if, if it doesn't involve other people, if it doesn't involve any illegal activity, we want to help you get recovery and keep you in ministry. And it was this wonderful offer that honestly, as I sat there, because I was in what I mentioned earlier, I was in a lot of rationalizing and minimizing my behavior.
I looked around, you know, I'm in the middle of this white knuckling phase, believing I'm a relapse away from ruining my marriage. And rather than saying, well, this is for me, I thought, boy, I, I hope the men who are really struggling are listening to this because this sounds like a great deal for them because they were using words like addiction and recovery.
It's like. Come on. I, yeah, I mean, I struggle once in a while, but is it really that big of a deal? Right. And that I think is one of the deep ironies also of addiction, is that at, at the one point we can feel like I am a relapse away from ruining my marriage. And then on the other hand, saying, but is it that big of a deal?
It's only one in a while. It's not real pe, you know, so I'm, I'm actively minimizing it just to try to feel okay about myself. And yet sitting in that same room by God's grace that day was my wife. And as she's sitting next to me, she is hearing an answer to 10 years of prayer. Mm-hmm. Praying. God, would you show Nick a away to freedom?
Because she believed I wanted it. She just didn't believe I knew how to get there. Yeah. So because of that elbow in my ribs, I'm like, oh, I, well, I guess I'll check out this program. They have, and they had, this was the point of where I'm getting to about addiction. They had our, our denomination had set up a great neutral step of going and talking to a guy in our denomination that was a counselor type and they said, Hey, go talk to Morris and he will help you discern if you need to go to pure desire.
So I went and I met with Morris, a guy that I knew and trusted, and I shared my story and I, I really spent most of the meeting trying to justify why I didn't need pure desire, because I had internet filters and accountability, and I was doing all the things and praying all the prayers. And he said, okay, Nick, let, let me ask you a couple of questions.
And these three questions changed my life. He said, how long has it been a problem, number one? And at that point, I'm in my early thirties and really started getting into porn. Porn pornographic magazines in my mid-teens. So I said, well, it's, it's been over 15 years at this point. He said, okay, number two, how many times have you tried to stop?
And, and I actually laughed a little. 'cause I was like, well, every time was the last time, literally every time was it, and I was never gonna do it again. So I said, if I'm being honest, I've tried to stop hundreds, if not thousands of times. Wow. He said, okay, third question, is it causing you or people you love, significant amounts of pain?
And that's where it got serious because I said, yeah, I think if I don't quit, my wife will leave me. He said, okay, Nick, let's put those three questions together. It's been a problem for a long time. You've tried repeatedly without success to change even though it's causing you and people you love.
Tremendous pain. I was like, well, yeah, that's actually a pretty sobering definition of my life right now. Wow. And that's when he looked at me in sincerity and love and said, Nick, that's the clinical definition of an addiction. Wow. And I remember in that meeting, I, I physically sat back like I. Like he had just slapped me or something.
'cause it felt so unfair. I'm like, I'm a pastor. I love Jesus. I'm sincere about my faith. I'm, I'm not living a double life. I'm not trying to hide these things. I mean, by that point, I was actively confessing to my wife to an accountability partner. I'd been honest with my, the senior pastor who hired me, I'd been honest with a man like I was being as honest as I knew how, and I'm like, I, I.
I'm, I'm, I'm doing everything I can. What do you mean addict? Because to me, addiction was a category of people that I didn't belong in, but that day, the awareness of an an addiction became a definition of the severity of what I was struggling with. Because if I had have been able to quit on my own, I could have.
It didn't in any way, um, remove the responsibility. It didn't mean like, oh, I, I have an addiction. I can't help it. It was like, no, the choices I've made have led me to a place where it is now outside of my control to stop on my own. I need more help. And it was with that encouragement that we started in on the one year counseling process that Peer Desire has and, and doing groups for myself as the struggler and for my wife as the betrayed spouse.
And, and it was because of that awareness that I don't know what I don't know. That we actually finally started to get help and learned. There was a whole lot more going on in my brain, in my patterns of behavior, things from my past that were really driving the behavior. I like to say I knew what I did.
I didn't know why. Yeah. I didn't know what was driving that, what had really become an addiction. So, you know, to your question, I, I think most of us feel like, ah, it's, you know, is it that big of a deal? I'm not. I'm not going out and paying for sex, or I'm not doing the more extreme thing. Extreme things. We like to define addiction based on the severity or the frequency of the behavior, but I think a better indication is, is it something we've started to depend on and has become ritualistic in our life?
Because even if, even if it's only happening, let's say you're relapsing with pornography a couple of times a year. It's a pretty predictable pattern. There's, there's a reason for that. Yeah. You know, we would, if a guy came to us and said, Hey, I, I'm doing meth, but, but you know, it's only a couple times a year.
I only do it at home. No one's being hurt, but it's not that big of a deal. Right. We would all say like, dude, no, like meth could kill you. Yeah. You don't want any meth in your life. Right. And if, if someone was saying, I'm, and I actually, and I don't wanna do it, but I do, a couple times a year we'd say. You need some support.
You need help. Yeah. But for whatever reason, when it comes to pornography and that whole world, we've learned to justify and rationalize to the point of saying, well, I, I don't really need help. Maybe if we ask ourselves those same three questions, we'd realize there's more going on here than I wanna admit.
But if that's the truth, I, I need to face that truth and I need to pursue help in whatever form it looks like. Ah, how much of the, that cycle, going back, you know, you, you would get the magazines on the way home from the basketball, uh, games. How much of that was like a, what they would call an intimacy disorder in the sense that you.
Uh, you've, you've started to now feel shame about what you're doing, and so now you can't get close to some the people you love, your parents who sounded like they were great parents or your friends or anyone else around you. And so because of that shame that you're feeling, I. Because of the behavior, you actually go back to the behavior because it's soothing.
It's your, it's become your soothing mechanism. And so, and it just creates this vicious cycle of, uh, I can't get close to you. I can't, I can't really reveal myself because I've got this shameful part of my life. And so, because I feel all this pain from the shameful part of my life, I'm gonna go soothe.
And now my soothing behavior actually makes me feel even worse. And you just get deeper and deeper into that rut. Yeah. Like how much of it is that, um, where you're, you're now like deeply. Disconnected from people you love because of that shame. That's a great question, and I, I think there are a lot of, a lot of layers to what was happening there.
I mean, at, at a base layer acting out to pornography is at a brain level as powerful a reward as doing cocaine. And in that nature it is addictive because the substance is different, but what it's doing to the brain is on par with drugs. And so there is a part of your brain that God designed, God designed our brain to seek out pleasure and to avoid pain.
And that reward center of our brain remembers like, wow, that feels amazing. I want it again. And if we've not really constructed any change, the brain remembers that pathway. And so part of it is, the cue is of, oh, it's late at night. No one knows where I am. Really. I could stop and buy one. I remember what that felt like last time in your brain, uh, starts to go down that pathway before you've even stepped into the store.
You know, one of the things we're learning about dopamine is that it's as much an anticipation of pleasure, chemical. Yeah. As it is a pleasure chemical. And, and dopamine starts to be released the moment you think about the old behavior. Yeah. So that you're more likely to pursue the pleasurable activity.
Now in, in a perfect world, in God's kingdom, you could see how beautiful that would be. That we remember the joy of relationship. We remember the joy of, of eating a meal with people that love us and, and we want to keep repeating those behaviors, but it so easily can be hijacked for sinful and destructive purposes.
So on that level, there's a lot happening on the brain, but that is what you're bringing up. What I was completely blind to is how much. In that whole sports career, I was wrapped up in a performance based way of living. Um, and, and also the ways it connected to my family of origin. So my dad as a wonderful as man as he is, um, he was an Allstate High school athlete, and yet he would tell me about in his story that his dad, who was also a pastor and in the, you know, fifties and sixties high school sports compared to building the church.
The church was what it was about. And he says, my dad never came to any of my games. Well, my dad came to all of my stuff, like my dad was my number one fan and he was there to support me. But also there was a lot of needs that were growing in me to feel like I was good enough for my dad. I. And I was on the basketball team, but I was often on the bench and I struggled for playing time and I, I never felt like I could quite achieve what I thought I was capable of and what my dad believed I was capable of.
And so there was this growing voice that would say, you don't have what it takes, you're not good enough. You know, and then I'm watching the guys that are, that are the starters and they are the stars and, and they're all. You hear the stories of them being much more sexually active, and so I would retreat to this world of pornography, but what I was blind to is how all of the things I was longing for on the basketball court and in life that says you're wanted, you're good enough, you have what it takes.
I was finding in a very artificial way in pornography, right, because in that fantasy world. You're good enough. You have what it takes. You're wanted, you're desired. And then there's this rush of chemicals that says, man, this is amazing. And for those few moments, everything you're looking for gets found.
It's a complete lie because then after that, what you bring up, the shame cycle kicks in. You go back to your real world and you're like, well, I'm not good enough. I don't have what it takes. Oh, and now by the way, I have a behavior that I don't wanna tell people about because it would only affirm that I'm not good enough and I don't have what it takes, and I'm actually a failure.
And so I need to hide this. And in that hiding, I'm reinforcing the very voices that are driving me to it. And so we do talk about it being a shame cycle. And a cycle that doesn't just keep you stagnant, it's actually spiraling downward because the more you use, the more you reinforce the negative messaging, the greater the secrets you have that you're keeping from people.
And now you're trapped. You're trapped in this place. But the real devious nature of it, going back to the dopamine hit in a weird, dysfunctional way. It works. Right? That's one of the things I try to say to men of why you stay stuck, because there's, there's something about it that works. There's a payoff, there's a pleasure chemical, there's a system of hiding that, that is, you've, you've made it work to construct your life around, but you can see if, if you're able to take.
A step back and be honest, you can see it's only working in the moment, but it's actually leading me on a path of destruction. Right? And to me, that's John 10 10 lived out in our real world that the enemy comes to steal, kill, and destroy. He still steals our hope. He kills our dreams, and he destroys our future and our families.
But it doesn't happen all at once. It's happening progressively as, as a pathway for being led down. But in recovery, Jesus has come. We might have life. And have life to the full. And that's really what we're all about at Pure Desire. Hmm. You bring up an interesting point about, you know, what you were longing for in sports that you were finding in pornography.
'cause I think a lot of guys, again, I've, I've spent a lot of time with guys and I think I've heard, I. I've heard a lot of guys say, you know, this is just a, it's something I do because I'm bored. It's something I do just, it's, it relaxes me. I've had a stressful day and I'm just trying to relax before I go to bed or whatever.
Um, but you were tying and, and the point you were making about what you were longing for in basketball, you were finding in pornography, that's not necess, that's not like a, a boredom issue. That's not a, you know, you're just trying to relax. You're actually, you're finding. Soul needs in pornography, and I think the one thing that's fascinating is if guys were to slow down long enough and be introspective long enough that they would ask themselves.
Or try to make connections between the, even the type of pornography that they're looking at and how that specific type of pornography is, is trying to meet, like you said, artificially a much deeper need. And it, and it really is can, it can be connected oftentimes back to, here's what I'm longing for in my life.
I'm longing to feel powerful or valued or worthy, or whatever. And then you, and you don't find that for whatever reason in your real world. And so you go to even certain genres of pornography in order that you would get those emotional needs met, which I think is evidence that this is not a boredom issue or a, you know, I'm just, I'm trying to relax, but this is like, there's some deep psychological, emotional, spiritual issues happening here at a deeper level.
Mm-hmm. Would you agree with that? We talk a lot at pure desire that pornography is a coping mechanism. You know, and when I say coping mechanism, I wanna be clear that that's not a negative thing. Because in truth, we all need methods of coping with the unpleasantness of life, with difficult emotions, with hard situations with pain.
Like what do we do to cope? And an ideal world, we would cope by going to relationships, by leaning into people that care, by pursuing healthy activities. But so many of us have learned. In addictive type behaviors. Again, whether we're talking food, drugs, alcohol, pornography, that there's something I can go to that makes me feel something good and that anize or, you know, it numbs the pain I'm feeling.
Yeah. So to, to go to the feeling of boredom. I, I discovered in my life this pattern that as a teenage kid when the house was empty and I'm bored and I have nothing to do, I would remember, you know, in our home it was the Sears catalog. And there's a section in there of lingerie and like when I'm bored and lonely, boy did that feel up.
Fill up the time. And there's all these pleasure chemicals that are going off in my brain. I. Well, when I'm now 20 years down the road, if I haven't learned any differently, when I'm feeling alone and bored and don't feel very motivated, what does my brain do? My brain remembers a pattern that says, oh, we know a really effective strategy to cope with these feelings.
And so I, I think you're spot on that when you're talking about this pattern. Particularly if we would say at a moral level, I object with what I'm doing. That morally I believe men and women are created to the image of God. And any person I see, I'm seeing an image bearer and I want to treat them as a human being of dignity, value, and worth.
And so if I'm objectifying them and turning them into something for my own pleasure, I'm, I'm violating my own moral code. So if someone is in that place as a, a, a Christian, uh, or that's their worldview and they choose that behavior, that's where I would say. You need to take a step back and say, what is it about this behavior that I would morally object to on so many levels, but in these circumstances, I normalize it and treat it as not a big deal.
Again, going back to my illustration of if, you know, if a friend came and said, well, I, I only use meth a couple of times, it's no big deal, right? We would. We would say, I, I, I think there's a problem here that that's your go-to. So if, if our go-to, and that's what I had to realize, like, yeah, I remember saying to Dr.
Ted Robertson in my counseling. I'm like, I don't think I have an addiction. I think I just like attractive women. And who doesn't? And he pointed out, he said, Nick, it probably started that way because there, there are normal human hormones and desires and God created us with the capacity for lust and, and seeing sexual images and being turned on, like all that's God's creation, he said, but somewhere in that it got fused.
Into your response to how you do life. Yeah. That now when you're bored or when you're overwhelmed, or when you feel depleted, or when you feel uncertain of what to do next, pornography has become the way to feel all the stuff you wanna feel, and the more you can unravel that system. You'll see that pornography doesn't have to be your go-to anymore because you'll develop healthier ways of coping with life and those un, those unpleasant emotions and strong desires, like there are better ways and, and we can learn to walk in those ways.
So, yeah, I, I think anytime we're engaged in behavior that we'd say at a moral level, I object to it, but I keep doing it. There's something deeper going on and, and it's worth finding out. What is that deeper question? Yeah. I think it might be discouraging for some guys to hear your story and think you were, you were confessing to your wife, which for a lot of guys is like, that's unimaginable.
Uh, you were confessing to the other pastors at the church. You had had filters and roadblocks and you still couldn't overcome it. You know, that's like, it's like, dang, man, you. You were doing all the things that I would imagine I would do if I were trying to stop. You know, I, I imagine a lot of guys are, are saying that, what did you learn once you got into the pure Desire program that was like, that took you beyond the white knuckling?
Like what were you, what, what did you hit? What were some of the light bulb moments where you're like, this is, I'm hitting the why, not just the what I'm doing, but the why that got you past just white knuckling it and having all these, you know, roadblocks, but just like. Started to find real healing. One of the mistakes we make is believing that confession is the goal.
Hmm. If I just get real, if I just get it out there. Then I'll be free of it. But the truth is confessing for me, and I've seen for a lot of people can actually become part of the system of binge purge. Hmm. That, that it really is just the purge of, okay, I get it all out there. I, in a sense, emotionally vomit this terrible stuff I'm doing, but wow, now I feel better.
But none of the deeper stuff has been addressed. Nothing has actually changed, and that's why I think. Biblically, the concept we see more than just confession is repentance. And repentance isn't, I feel really sorry about something and I, I confess it. Repentance is that metanoia, it's a change of behavior.
It's, it's turning and going in a different direction. Yeah. Only the problem with our struggles with pornography or lust or compulsive sexual behavior is most of us don't actually know how to go in a different direction. Other than to just try hard or not to do the bad thing. Right. And so that's what the Pure Desire group, I think created some revelation of like, oh, confession.
'cause I would underscore it is important, you know, that's in a weekly group setting in a sense. We're coming and confessing and, and that's. James chapter five. The word there for confess your sins is actually in the Greek. It's an ongoing action verb that should be translated, in my opinion, should be translated confessing.
This idea of ongoing living in the light, living in the truth, telling the reality of my story. And then getting help to go in a new direction. So like in the Pure Desire Group, for me it was unpacking the pattern that I would go through when I would act out in pornography and realizing that it was incredibly predictable.
So to give a quick example of that. When I would feel a little overwhelmed by my work as a pastor or like there was a project in front of me that I didn't feel good about, I would start to procrastinate. Procrastinate would be step one. And in that procrastination in those days, I would be doing a lot of fantasy sports.
I. You know, looking at player stats and matchups and looking to trade, well now I'm wasting time online. So that's step two. And in wasting time online, inevitably as our world would have it, you're gonna come across something sexually triggering. Maybe it's a banner ad, maybe it's an article, a clickbait, maybe it's a pop-up.
And typically in my past, that'd be step three, something sexually triggering. Typically, I would respond really well to that. Turn it off. I don't wanna see that. Go to a different website. That thought and that image would sit with me, and as I would stay in this place of procrastinating and not feeling good enough, eventually I would come back and click on something or look a little more, and now I'm, now I'm crossing one boundary that, that at that point it's like, is this a big deal?
Well, probably not. But that's not where it would stop. It would now lead to more wasted time online, more viewing until I'm in a binge and now I'm viewing pornography and I'm acting out and I'm feeling terrible, which would be the next part. Okay. Now I get rid of everything. I start over. I start fresh, never again.
Well. I'd been cycling in and outta that pattern for 15 years and never knew it. And one of the powerful things then that we teach and that someone will learn in a pure desire group, we think of integrity as men to to be this idea that if I was on a computer alone late at night, feeling triggered to look at pornography, I would just shut down my computer and walk away.
That's integrity. And what I figured out is that integrity is more about having the wisdom. To know that I should never be alone late at night on a computer where I could become triggered. Yeah, that success was found at the beginning of the pathway, not trying to fight to avoid relapse at the end of the pathway.
It's the idea of a, you know, a train that as a locomotive picks up steam. There is energy and momentum behind it, and as everyone knows, to, uh, for a train to stop might be a mile long of breaking. Yeah. That's kind of what's happening in your brain and your body. The more dopamine's kicking in and you're being triggered and like it's a train picking up speed.
Again, we're still responsible for the choices we make, but what it says is that's a lose situation. You are now battling your, your, your own chemistry and your god design systems of reward in your brain. The better strategy is to figure out what makes that train first. Start moving and as soon as it starts moving, and usually those are non-sexual things like right, loneliness, boredom, procrastination.
Anger, frustration, a, a feeling of disrespect from a spouse not feeling good, and all of those become this little engine that starts to say, I'm, I'm unhappy with something. Yeah. And if that pathway over and over in your life has led you to pornography and you don't deal with. The first step, the loneliness, the procrastination, the boredom, it's gonna keep taking you to that same place.
And, and that for me was so eye-opening of like, oh, I'm, I'm not actually learning strategies of just how to avoid pornography online. I'm actually learning what starts that whole process in my life. I. Procrastination, boredom, not feeling good enough. And when that begins to develop better strategies of how to take that to God and others in a way that really is healing and restoring, rather than just being a way to numb out and avoid feeling what I'm feeling.
Yeah. Yeah. That reminds me of like the halt, uh, hungry, angry, lonely, tired, you know? So, and you named, you, you named Exactly, yeah. More of those. But yeah, some of what you're feeling that you're, you're vulnerable under those circumstances. Uh, it also reminds me of like the, you know, outer circle, middle circle, inner circle kind of behaviors, what you're talking about.
For me personally, these are gonna, I'm gonna give you two examples of my, what I would call, uh. Middle circle behaviors, um, that would lead that I would know The train has started to go down the path. Um, one of them, and these sound weird. I'm, I'm purposely throwing two weird ones out so that guys can kind of put flesh to what you're talking about.
One of them is Zillow. For me, if I'm on browsing on Zillow and the reason that's a middle circle behavior for me, middle circle being yellow light, like you have started the path, the, the train has gone. We're getting into danger zone. Yeah, we're getting into danger zone. And the reason Zillow, which feels so harmless is.
For me, I'm starting to check out mentally there is zero reason for me to look for houses right now. We have a perfectly fine house. We live in a great neighborhood with great neighbors. My kids are, and you know, everything's fine. So if I'm starting to like get to a spot where it's like, well what about houses in Tennessee?
Well, what about houses over here? Well, what if we lived closer to some water? You know, if I'm starting to get into that thinking. That is indicating to me something is happening deeper at a soul level. Um, I am looking to escape in some way, um, from whatever the reality is. So for a guy that's like. I've told some of my guys from our garage group that some of my pastors, like, you know, I have Zillow in my middle circle, and they, they were just so baffled by that.
But I, for me, I really know what's happening and it is an escape. It's kind of, my brain is moving, it's checking out, it's going to some fantasy. Fantasy, not even sexually, just fantasy of like, right. What else could be out there that would satisfy my soul? The other one I have on my middle circle, which is.
Comical and slightly embarrassing is, uh, Oreos. Uh, if I am eating too many Oreo, like if I go to the store and I grab a case of Oreos and I'm just like pounding a sleeve of Oreos, something is going on in my soul, um, I am soothing some kind of like, you know, the, I've put the kids to bed, I've grabbed Oreos, and I'm just like pounding them.
Something, something deeper. I know for me personally, yeah. I'm not saying Oreos needs to be on every guy's thing, but for me personally, I know this is unhealthy behavior for me. Something at my soul level is off. And, uh, so I, this sounds so silly, but I, I've literally limited myself to three. Or like, if I'm gonna have Oreos, there's, I get three of them.
Uh, and part of that is again, just recognizing the patterns within myself that would start that train to roll down. Um, yeah. Anyway, yeah. You're, you're defining in your life what leads towards health and what leads towards unhealth and that. I, I think of it, it's kind of like the, the dials on the cockpit of an airplane.
Yeah. That, that tho all those lights and warning signals are not in and of themself the problem, but they start to alert you that there may be a problem somewhere else in the plane. Right. And for guys, it's asking that question of like, why is this, you know, and emotions are such an indicator, like anger.
Mm-hmm. And we might say, well why did you get angry? It's like, well, 'cause my kid was annoying me. Well, but if I'm honest, I know that my kid doesn't always annoy me, and sometimes I'm really gracious when they ask me that question, and sometimes I see it as a teachable moment. But in that moment, I got angry and to actually be able to pause and say, why did I get angry?
I. We realized that in, in my spirit, what I felt in that moment, their question actually made me feel not good enough as a dad. And I felt weak. And, and I responded to that feeling of weakness with anger because that's how I've learned to deal with anger or weakness, is to get angry. Yeah. And that can become part of a pattern and that my anger leads to regret and shame.
And now I, I isolate and in isolating because I've made people mad. I'm now, now I start to find a trigger towards sexual activity. Yeah. Because in my brain it's all become connected. Yeah. But maybe the starting point was feeling the emotion of weakness. And as as men, you know, that's one of the challenges, like in this world, we're gonna have times we feel weak.
Yeah. Or afraid or alone. And those aren't things typically we're allowed to express as men in a lot of environments. We've learned unhealthy ways to cope with those emotions that really are, they're just warning lights trying to say, okay, there's something going on here. Because if my trigger is, you know, weakness or or failure, I can probably trace it back in my story to somewhere that got lodged in my thinking.
That said, if I'm weak, I'm not loved, or if I'm weak, I'll be rejected. There's a story there from my family or my dad, or a, a coach, and I'm still actually trying to rewrite that story, but I'm doing it in really negative ways. And that again, is the power of a group environment, like pure desire. And the kind of work we do is, is you're gonna piece together your whole story in ways you never have.
I've, I've told people that for me, when I did counseling with pure desire, I didn't learn anything new about my life. What I did learn was all these connections that I never knew existed. Yeah. I mean, I knew, I, I knew I had a performance streak. I knew I wanted to be the best, but I had never put together how deeply that was woven into my story and how actively that was driving behaviors, like using pornography.
And so you've, you've got a story. I, if you're breathing, you've got a story. The question is, if you understand the way your story connects and leads you into unhealthy, sinful behaviors. Yeah. Yeah. We've worked with a counselor over the last few months who often uses the phrase, you gotta collect the dots to connect the dots or the dots, you know, it's like collect, connect, and Correct.
Um, counselors always have these, all these pithy statements like that, but I think it's, you're right, it's just like, what are all these things that have happened in my life? How do we put them together and then how do we correct it? Um. You know, one of the things you talked about was confession and that not being the full piece of the story, which I thought was really helpful for you to share that.
I think a lot of guys might hear this or I wonder if there's guys who are hearing this who feel like even as they're listening, they know they've got some deep secrets and they're like, I don't, I. They might feel a sense of like deep guilt and they just have to kind of purge it out on someone. Or, or maybe like you did when you were in college before you got married and it was like, I, you know, I just need to confess everything to my fiance or some guy feels like I just need to, I just need to go home tonight and tell my wife everything.
Um. What? What would you say to that? Could that be harmful? Is that the right thing to listen to a podcast like this? Guys are feeling kind of all, all kinds of guilt and shame and just go home and kind of dump all this stuff. Is that right? Is that wrong? Is that helpful? Is that not helpful? What would you say to guys who are feeling that?
The desire to be honest, and the desire to be fully known by people that love us is a good desire, but we can go about it in the wrong way. I, I used a phrase earlier that might have stood out to some of it, it's a little bit like emotional vomiting, uhhuh, and the problem is, man, I feel so much better.
Everybody else has to clean up the mess. Yeah. And they may not have the tools or support or resources to deal with that mess. And what we find so often, those are are very much cleaned up confessions, if I can put it that way. We share just enough to feel like we're being truthful, but we haven't actually shared the full reality.
And so what happens? The follow up questions come and then there's more, or the next day there's the, oh yeah, I forgot about, and there's more and there's more. And, and the wounding it can have to a spouse they have discovered through a lot of research can create the same emotional profile as a rape victim.
Yeah, I know that's really extreme for guys to hear. It's like, holy cow, that mean that is a way different thing. Sure. The behavior is, but in terms of the trauma it can create. It is on that level. Yeah. And so what we really try to coach men is to say, confession is good, but let's start with another guy.
Let's start with a group. Let's start with a place that has been designed to help you work through that confession and do it in a way that then can become full. It's, it's the full truth and an appropriate level of honesty. And what I mean by that is sometimes guys in a desire to be truthful, they start sharing.
Details that are actually not helpful in terms of the kind of woman, the names of movie stars, the, the names of websites, the, the kind of fed, and there are, there are some of those categories that may need to be addressed in a, a helpful process. Yeah. But if we haven't done some of our own work, it's gonna come out in ways that will probably create even more pain than we ever intended.
And so that's why we encourage, yes, your wife or girlfriend, if you wanna have a truly intimate relationship, they need to know everything. But how and when they hear it, if you could do it in a way that has been thought out. I've always said, written down, uh, and actually shared with a friend or brother first to say, Hey, this is what I'm going to share.
Ask me questions that this brings up. Yeah. And you can determine where, is there too much detail? Where is there not enough? So that when I share, one of the things I always say to guys is, the worst thing you can do is share with your wife and then realize I didn't share everything. Yeah. Because it will actually increase the feeling of shame that, well, if she hears this piece, then it's really gonna get bad.
And so. Yeah, you gotta go through that door at some point, but when you walk through it, what we wanna do is equip you to have it. Be the greatest possibility. That will be a healing moment. Yeah. And not just a destructive moment of here's my truth, that's gonna hurt you. So our encouragement is get in a group, get with another mentor and a guy and start sharing it.
Start doing your work because then you can be equipped to confess in a way that can actually be redemptive. Yeah. Now the other side of it, there's so many men will experience, they don't get that luxury because they get caught. Right. And when you get discovered. Some truth's gonna come out, but I would encourage you even there, do your best to try to get some help, get some support, get with another couple that's walked this road because you are about to face one of the most intense moments of your life that will probably define your future.
And if you resort to have truths to defensiveness, to blaming or to stagger disclosure. Very often that that leads to the destruction of a marriage. But if, if you approach with a heart of humility of a desire to change. And that's the other thing I'd say about confession. That, that I saw confess, I thought confession again was the goal.
If I confess I'll get better. I would say confession needs to be the starting point of action. So my question to you, if, if you realize, man, there's stuff my wife doesn't know and I'm gonna need to tell her. How could that be accompanied by action? Yeah, because it's a totally different ballgame. If you confess to your wife and say, and by the way, I've already joined a group.
Here's steps I'm taking. I've purchased these workbooks, I've reached out about counseling. Here are the things I'm wanting to do. Will you go on this journey with me that that's very different than, well, here's all my junk and now we're better. Right. Right. So I think sometimes that's what guys want. It's like, well, if I confess and you forgive me, and now we move on clean slate.
And I wish to heaven it worked that way. I wish we got it out and it, it healed us just by getting it out. But it's, it's, it's a journey of transformation because as we've talked about, it's all that deeper stuff that's driving us. Into the behaviors and so we can confess the behaviors, but that's like the above the waterline part of the iceberg.
Yeah. The behaviors are just the tip of the iceberg and you've gotta get 'em out. They've gotta be known. But to change, you've gotta deal with all the stuff under the water, your desires, your history, your story, your unwanted emotions, understanding your pattern. And that's a work that takes time. And so the more that you can show, I'm committing to do the work of recovery.
The more palatable it will make your confession, if I could put it that way. Yeah. Your first step should be, boy, how can I start working on my recovery so that when I do confess, it's accompanied by action and not just words. Yeah, that's really good. I've heard it said that's like, um, you know, that confession can feel like you took off a 500 pound pound backpack.
Um, but unfortunately you gave it to your wife. Yep. And now she's carrying that. Um, and so yeah, I think you're right that, that. It can cause a significant amount of trauma. And so you want to do it well and you definitely don't wanna do that, like trickle truth disclosure where you're just kinda staggering.
'cause it can be, like you said, the research shows that it can be harmful to just continue to drag that out over days, weeks, months. Uh, you know, one thing that might be helpful for a guys, whether you've. Recently been caught or you plan on confessing this, whatever your situation is, um, that you would just make a commitment to your wife to say, I want to tell you the truth in full.
You know, I'm, I'm committed to telling you the complete truth. I just want to do it really well. And so, um, maybe now's not the time for me to dump all the things on you. Let me think through, through this and let me get some help and work through this and do it right. Write it down, you know, work through some people who have experience in this.
Um, but I am committed to telling you that. Truth completely. That might be a helpful way to approach it with your wife so that she knows that you are committed to it. You want to tell her full truth, but you're not gonna spend the next month giving her one piece of information at a time, you know? Yeah.
For her question. Very good. So man, this was really helpful. I know you've got some, but you've talked about pure desire, which I know we'll, we'll put a link in the website so guys can check out that resource. You've got some books too, right? Um, you know, tell us other ways that guys can get connected or get some resources on this issue.
Yeah, find us@puredesire.org. We have all kinds of free tools. Books you can purchase. We have a weekly podcast. If, if there's a part of recovery you're wondering about, you could probably type it in the search bar and we probably have done a recovery on it because our goal is to have conversations about sexuality that nobody's having and to equip you to experience change and transformation in your life.
And so that's all@puredesire.org. Um, I wrote my story in a book called Setting us Free, and you can find that setting us free, uh, at our web store@puredesire.org or on Amazon or any place they sell books. And, uh, a great starting point. You know, for men, we have seven pillars of Freedom is our men's group.
And for wives who are experiencing that pain of betrayal, we have groups called Betrayal and Beyond. And I would highly recommend whether you find a local group around you that is walking through this or join one of our online groups. If in listening to this podcast, there's a party that's saying, man, that's, that's, they're telling my story.
Joining a group is the single greatest piece of advice I could give to anybody listening, because you can read all the books in the world and listen to all the podcasts in the world, but until you engage in this recovery with other men or other women who are walking that same road, and you learn to be completely honest with them, until them, your recovery on your own just isn't gonna get it done.
And so finding a group is such a key strategy, and you could find those groups, uh, on our website as well. Awesome. Uh, before I let you go, you, you, something you just said there triggered another question I had, which is we do have some wives who listen into the show. They kind of, they sneak in here and try to hear what the guys are talking about.
Um, I imagine some of the wives are probably thinking, oh, geez, does my husband struggle with this? And maybe they would feel the temptation to just, you know, close this podcast and send their husband a text or. Hit 'em, blindside 'em tonight as they're about to fall asleep, you know? Are you a porn addict?
Are you, uh, what, what, what advice would you give to wives who are listening right now and who, who don't know where their husband's at? Yeah. I would just affirm them that it's a fair and right desire to wanna know, is this in our relationship? I. Is this impacting the way he views me? What's going on that I don't know, Uhhuh.
And I think approaching it in a way that is both gracious and truthful and at a time where you have some space to talk. And I, I would say for that wife, you know, to approach and say, Hey, I, I heard this podcast and I realize it's a part of our relationship. I don't know that we've ever truly sat and been honest about.
And I want you to know that I love you and I want you to know that if this is in your life, I want to be a part of seeing it gone. But I also want you to know. It's not okay if this is happening. And so could we talk about what is your truth, what's the reality? And being ready to, for yourself, get help because that's, I, I think some people on men or women will hear this podcast, this is hard work.
Mm-hmm. It is the kind of thing that a part of us just wants to shut the computer on and go like, okay, I don't wanna think about that. Yep. That doesn't change if that's our reality. And so it's a scary place to be. And I would say for you, if, if you're gonna be asking that question, you need the same support.
You need to know who can I go to that will be a healthy sounding board, and not just be girlfriends back man, dump him, get rid of him. He's looking at porn. Kick him out. Like, because there's attitudes out there like that, that if, if your desire is to, to work through this. There's support that you can have through group, through mentors, through counselors that could really help you walk a pathway to know what do you need to know?
How do you reestablish trust? How do you create healthy boundaries in the marriage? How do you have an action plan if there's a relapse? Like all those things are available to you as the spouse. Uh, and, and you could find 'em at pure desire.org and other places, because as you open that door, knowing that you are not alone, that you have people to go to is just as important.
As your husband finding places he can go and get help. Mm, thanks Nick. This was so great man. I really appreciate it. You've given us a lot of wisdom today, so I appreciate you taking the time to spend with us today. Thank you, man. Thanks for having me on. Thanks for having the, the hard conversation. I appreciate it.
Yeah, thanks.