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Conversations on Reforestation, Silviculture, Tree Genetics, Planting, Planning and More! Join us as we go deep with forestry experts and explore the art and science of trees.
Paul Jeffreys (00:05)
Hello and welcome everybody to the episode 17 of the ArborGen TreeLines podcast. I'm your host, Paul Jeffreys And today we are meeting with our reforestation advisor, Blake Sherry and Pierce Timber Wood dealer, Jim Parker. Hey guys, how are y'all doing?
Blake Sherry (00:24)
Doing good, Doing great, Paul.
Paul Jeffreys (00:25)
Great, great. So we have both of y'all
there together at our nursery in Belleville, Georgia. Great for y'all. think y'all are probably, y'all are our first interview with ⁓ two people in the same room at one time. So this is gonna get, this could get interesting here. Y'all are sharing the equipment there.
So, know, today we are going to be talking about inside the timber market and what wood dealers look for when buying timber. Timber value isn't just about how many trees you grow. Obviously, it's about the quality of the trees that you grow and how they fit into the markets that you have there in your area.
And today we're going to be sitting down with a wood dealer to break down how timber is actually evaluated, bought and sold from market dynamics and procurement decisions to the role of genetics and stand management. And this conversation is going to revolve all around that. Like I said, I'm your host, Paul Jeffreys. I'm the Deep South Reforestation Advisor for ArborGen in Alabama and Mississippi.
And welcome again to episode 17.
getting into this episode, Blake and Jim, give us a little bit of background, Jim, about where you're from, introductory, and tell us a little bit about yourself.
Blake Sherry (01:44)
Well, I'm originally from about 10 miles from this nursery. I'm from Reedsville, living by Delia, Georgia now. Families from this area, gosh, right there post-revolutionary war. Some of the property we've got now has been in my family that long. So I've been from right around here my whole life. Got a bachelor's in forest management from ABAC.
procurement forester with Pierce Timber and that's kind of a little bit about me.
Paul Jeffreys (02:12)
Okay, so you got a little
bit of a history there in your area if it goes, you've family farms and family timberland from that far back,
Yeah, yeah, so that's a, so I have a legacy farm and timberland owner and it goes back a long time and, you know, not try to sidetrack here, but those legacy farms are very important to the South and what we do ⁓ with timberland, timberland ownership. really built up a lot of the industry around the area and helped build up a lot of these small towns.
So Blake, give us a little bit of history about yourself. Tell us where you're from and what you do and where you went to school.
Blake Sherry (02:54)
Well, I'm not from around here. I'm from Marietta, which is a suburb of Atlanta. And no offense to Metro Atlanta, but didn't want to live around there after getting out of school. So went to UGA, got a forestry degree, and worked for a couple of mills. That's how I met Jim originally, when I was buying logs for Interfour. And Jim was ⁓ one of my better wood dealers.
in a couple different ways. And for the past couple of years now, worked for ArborGen. And I guess my region is technically the southeast region, but South Georgia, Florida, lower Alabama. And ⁓ I thought Jim would be a good guest to have on because people care about our side of the business, They care a lot more about what it ends up going for, what you end up selling your timber for.
and I think Jim has some good insight to that. One thing Tom Sanders I've talked about him before a landowner we do a lot of work with in southwest Georgia he had some facts and figures about
how many generations can own land or, know, land ownership by generational changes. I think his family had, has their property for over seven generations and effectively there's no statistics on.
how many ownership changes makes that. Within four or five generations, most families have lost their land. ⁓ It's been sold off, it's been pieced out. to keep a land base of any size for that length of time is basically impossible to do.
Paul Jeffreys (04:19)
Yes.
It's very, very, it's very difficult without, without planning, without planning Blake, I'm glad you brought that up without planning. That's very difficult to do. but that gave us.
Blake Sherry (04:39)
Well, I was going to say how, I mean, what did your family do you think to help keep it together for as long as, as long as they have? I'd probably say.
since a lot of that kind of came in our family a land grant from the Revolutionary War that had been like the first parker that moved what was Liberty County then now present day Long County. Several generations after that I guess you had siblings that really got along well and then my great-grandfather really bought a good chunk of what we have now that I kind of look after now he was very heavy he and another business partner is were very heavy in the
turpentine business in the early 1900s up through the 40s and 50s until we kind of you know plantation forestry kind of became a thing with these evolving pulp markets and everything so I don't know I guess a little bit of everybody being able to get along and and the good Lord looking out for you that kind of thing is kind of what has held things together
Paul Jeffreys (05:34)
So well with that being said and you brought up a good point there Blake you said that you and ⁓ Mr. Jim there used to work together back in your days in procurement.
And you mentioned a term called a wood dealer. So for those that are unfamiliar, Jim, could you just explain to our listeners exactly what a wood dealer does and how you fit into the equation between the mill and the landowner?
Blake Sherry (06:01)
you
I'd probably say my role would be kind of like the middle man between the landowner and the mill. So we're kind of, you know, the procurement arm of these companies. Very few of them now are outsourcing with their own procurement staff and their own log. And most of them use what they call, you know, a wood dealer, which is a company like I work for Pierce Timber Company. So I'm kind of boots on the ground, tires on the road kind of guy that acts as, you know, the point
between the landowners and the mills. So I deal directly with the landowners, know, purchasing the timber from them and I deal directly with the mills and I deal directly with the logging that goes on their property. So that's just kind of three different points right there of kind of how I deal with different folks. That's that's kind of my role. So from like the mill side, you know, if someone's buying wood at a mill, they're probably only interested in if it's a pulp mill, they're only interested in
wood if it's a sawmill you know saw logs or or chip-n-saw for them to run logging crews you know every track has a range of products on it and
it'd be a lot of extra work if you're just trying to buy saw logs and you're buying wood directly from landowners and Half the wood that you buy off a track you have to figure out a different home for so That's where the I think the wood dealers in efficiency in the system where I mean you kind of you outsource a lot of that to To someone like, you know Pierce or Jim That or at least the mills do ⁓ more
Paul Jeffreys (07:17)
Right.
All right.
Blake Sherry (07:31)
more efficiently allocate where products go.
Paul Jeffreys (07:34)
So Mr. Jim, so Jim, let me ask you this. So what does your day to day usually look like as a wood dealer looking for wood for mills?
Okay.
Blake Sherry (07:50)
Kind of get going, get stirring. First thing that takes up my day is probably go through my phone, look at all the text messages I've gotten from mills and group messages and stuff of who has an issue at a mill that's not taken and who's got trucks down that can't haul wood that day, as much wood as needed or so forth and so on. So that kind of gets my day started and then probably
probably around 6:30 - 7 o'clock kind of hit the road going typically on the phone for another good hour after that typically meeting with landowners or something like that first thing in the morning or if I've got some tracks I'm bidding on or something be cruising timber or got a crew on a track I'll be flagging the landlines or something like that but I would say probably
80 % of my time every day is taken up by the telephone. ⁓ Sad but true. That's just the world we live in now.
Paul Jeffreys (08:41)
Okay.
Right. It is. How
did we function ever before we had a telephone in our pocket everywhere we go?
Blake Sherry (08:52)
Gosh, it must have been nice. I miss those days.
Paul Jeffreys (08:55)
well, that's interesting. You know, looking at the wood dealer side. So do you have, as a wood dealer, do you have logging crews that work for directly for you on the tracks that you buy?
or how do you fit in with logging crews?
Blake Sherry (09:09)
Yes, I do. I've got sometimes three, but right now four contract loggers, which means they're kind of under contract with us that, you know, they they work for us and they harvest the timber we purchase and they deliver it to the mills. But with Pierce Timber, we also have a fair amount of company on cruise that are people that work at Pierce Timber and my boss, Thompson. So we've got a good we I'd say we're about 50-50 contract
Paul Jeffreys (09:38)
Wow.
Wow. Yeah, that is, that's really incredible. now that we understand your role, let's talk about what you're seeing in the markets right now. If you've got that many loggers that are working for you and your company, Pierce Timber is buying that much wood and y'all are moving that much wood to the mills and everything in your area.
Blake and Jim, what are y'all seeing in y'all's markets down there now that's really driving all this movement in the timber market?
Blake Sherry (10:06)
say probably saw timber chip-n-saw markets are the big driver right now. As everybody knows the big thing that happened around here was shut down of IP Savannah and the Riceboro mill which put a huge hurtin on the pulp. Pup wood was king in this area. Pup wood was the market driver.
So that being said with the loss of IP Savannah and the Riceboro Mill, very little pulp wood operations going on. mean, you're hauling some, I almost call pulp wood a residual now because you're cutting log tracks, chip-n-saw tracks, but you've got your pulp wood and tops that are something that have to be dealt with. I mean, it's no longer a big profit. It's something that has to be dealt with almost a headache, if you
But that's going to be the market driver right now in May of 2026. I'd say first then and they're out of the question Who knows what's going to happen with those?
Paul Jeffreys (10:59)
Right.
Well, let me ask you this. Let me ask you this, Jim. Is it that first thinnings are out of the question or is it that the pulpwood thinning is out of the question? Because people get that, we get that terminology. Like I was speaking with a landowner just the other day and he said, well, are we skipping a first thin? And I had to think about that. And I come back and said, no, we're not skipping the first thin. It's the pulpwood thin that we're wanting out of the question. The first thin, we want it to be more of a chip-n-saw thin.
Blake Sherry (11:31)
Well, I'd say around here, mean, most people planted in such a way that it would force your first then to be nothing but pulpwood. ⁓ People don't have stands that were planted at a low enough density where you could really delay that thinning age to the point where, you know, you're you're getting chip-n-saw out of your first thin Because I mean, most stands right, heck, there are people around
Paul Jeffreys (11:40)
Yep.
Blake Sherry (11:57)
We're playing in 726 to the acre as of last year, right? So I mean, I think not to speak for Jim, but that's kind of more so the idea, right? Blake's spot on with that. My personal property have always been kind of like my rule of thumb has been 605.
Paul Jeffreys (12:15)
Right.
Blake Sherry (12:16)
that gives you a little bit of good diameter growth and you're also going to be able to take out a pretty decent amount of volume per acre in a first thinning but it's going to be pulp wood I mean and here the thing about it is Paul so many of the mills around here since the closure of savannah and Riceboro their chip-n-saw specs have tightened up so much I mean you've got one mill that's moved to like a 25 year minimum age
Paul Jeffreys (12:42)
Mm-hmm.
Blake Sherry (12:43)
your five inch top specs are out the window now. You used to be mills around here, know, no but five inch top, Riceburg closed, that's gone. Some other mills have gone to six inch top, you know, they're not even thinking about five inch top. They're all targeting a better quality log. If you're gonna first thin Loblolly at the appropriate ages, know, 12, 13, 14, 15 years old, and those age ranges, you're not gonna have any chip-in-saw coming out of them in this area.
Paul Jeffreys (13:09)
So Jim, I'm in the same boat you are. I've got personal property in North Alabama and we had the international paper, the IP mill in Cortland, Alabama and it closed down probably been close to 15 years ago now. I've got some timber stands that are past the thinning age trying to get them up. you know, back in the day, like you were just saying, back in the day we were planting
605, 622, 700 trees to the acre because that mill was eating wood and we didn't have a problem moving it. And that shift in the market changed our management overnight. And even 15 years out or whenever that mill closed, how many years ago it's been, even that many years out now, we're still having to deal with that.
Paul Jeffreys (13:59)
You know, let's connect that to what you're actually evaluating when you're buying timber, Jim, you know, let's, let's look at these markets and connect that back to the landowner and what you're looking for when you're, so just kind of give us an idea of what you're looking for when you're evaluating a track.
Blake Sherry (14:16)
Well, probably I'd say the first thing I'm looking for when evaluating a track is kind of looking at what the landowners goals are, kind of what their needs are. If they're working with me one on one on something and I'll kind of recommend, you know, thinning, I don't know that we really need to look at doing that right now, because you're going to have a problem moving the wood if you can even get anything for it. So let's focus on that 100 acre block. You've got of saw timber, you know, I've got great, great saw timber and pole markets always have.
I hate to say that and sound like that, but it's true. mean, without a logging force, you won't have any lumber to build your house or poles to hold up power lines. So without keeping loggers whole and healthy, we won't be in this business. Nobody will be. So that's kind of my outlook on things like that when I'm evaluating a track, kind of looking at things like that.
Paul Jeffreys (15:06)
Right. So
what about talk about a little bit about track characteristics though, as far as, you know, what size tracks are optimal? What can a landowner do to make his aside from the trees and aside from, you know, what the quality of the timber that is on the property, what else can a landowner do to make that track more attractive to a timber buyer or a wood dealer?
as far as access, roads, what are you looking for as far as those characteristics?
Blake Sherry (15:39)
The number one thing I'd say I'm looking at Paul and you just mentioned it - it's access. I'm looking for good roads and I'm looking for good access. Somebody might have a great track of timber, but they don't understand the fact that they didn't take care of those roads or kind of put rock on some ramps where they needed to be and you got to kind of keep the roads in good shape. That great stand of timber that they walked through and say, look at how great my timber is. It might be worth half of what they think it's worth to me
because of the amount of money I'm about to have to spend to put into the road and the access and all that. There again, it kind of falls in line with the thinning on, you know, we can't go broke, but this is kind of the same situation. It has to be advantageous for all parties involved for us all to make a good living. I mean, things like that are things that I'm looking for. Good access is probably my number one thing. I can work with wet ground. We can log wet ground.
We can duel up, we can shovel, we can do all that. I mean, we can mat. But the number one thing is your timber's only worth getting to it. I mean, if you can't get to it, it's not worth anything. So that's kind of one big thing I'm looking at.
Paul Jeffreys (16:34)
Mm-hmm.
Right. Right.
Right. So
Blake, looking back on your past experience in procurement when you were working before you came on and joined us, you know, did you take any consideration into that while you were looking, working with landowners?
Blake Sherry (16:57)
We definitely put premiums on accessible tracks. Tracks that can be logged in wet weather. Tracks that.
someone said, I can move to this in an emergency and get started within a few hours versus, hey, I got two days worth of road work before we can get into this thing. So the landowner gets paid stumpage. They get paid.
dollars per ton for their wood but what the mill pays the wood dealer is kind of the totality of the cost of getting a ton to the mill so it's money for
the wood, it's money for the logger, it's money for the truck driver, it's money for, you know, driving around all day, finding tracks of wood, carrying the appropriate insurance to do so. And because of that, if the wood dealer has to put more money towards roads, if the wood dealer has to put more money towards haul distance, towards maybe Jim talked a little bit about like logging
rate. know how logging rate can change by tons to the acre or what kind of know sorts you have or something like that. That's something that's a lot of landowner or maybe not completely clear.
rise the diesel fuel up.
lubricants up everything so we base a logging rate while we pay our loggers off of you know freight rates to get to the mills with trucks what kind of cost it takes them to you know cut the woods get it and load it put it on the truck and haul it to the mill at times like this when fuel is a lot higher i mean it's like anything else to operate and cost her a lot more so there's going to be a lot that goes into that and i mean sometimes
Sometimes mills want to help out with it, sometimes they don't. It just depends. But regardless, at end of the day, some of that's still going to come out of the stumpage number because we've got to pay our guys good to be sure that they are prosperous, that they are able to stay in business, they stay healthy, and that this whole business can continue to go on. sometimes when fuel is up, prices on timber are still going to be down.
the mills aren't paying anything for the wood is the fact that our operating costs are a lot higher. And I mean, it's got to come from somewhere too.
Paul Jeffreys (19:09)
Yes, yeah.
So I'm glad y'all brought that up. And that really leads us into the next segment here about talking about wood quality and everything. So as a private landowner, in order to kind of counter that and kind of ensure or help with getting the highest value for their product,
You you got to look at the wood quality and you got to look at the stand quality. You got to look at this accessibility. You got to look at everything that can create, can turn that average track of timber into a higher value track of timber. And that just doesn't happen naturally. It takes a lot of inputs. You got better inputs. You put better inputs into the stand. You get a more predictable, higher quality end result ⁓ or outcome.
of that stand. It's not like you can just, you know, cut it, plant it and walk away and be done with it for the next 15 years till you get ready to, hey, okay, it's 15 years later. Now let's go back in there and pick up right where we left off and go right back in and take something out. No, it doesn't work that way. Working, you know, working on a farm or having a farm or working on timberland, it's always something to be done. There are an input going in.
to get that outcome that you need. Well, Jim, know, here recently we've been hearing a lot of myths about timber and myths about wood that mills are buying and then reality. So just give us a little bit in your area, what are some common myths about wood quality that you hear? And just kind of tell us about, you know, what you're hearing there in your area.
Blake Sherry (20:49)
Yeah, it's funny, know, at times like this when pulp wood is tight and, you know, kind of the pulpwood market has gone away.
the mills that you saw mills and chip-n-saw mills and all that. What you'll see them do I see is, you know, they're tightening down. They're watching the knots. They're watching cankers. They're watching but flare and they're taking a little bit of look at everything. Some mills, you know, have a standard they go by and which they call a call system where they kind of have a sheet like, hey, here's where we're going to call our products like, you know, too many knots, crooks, we
And they're deducting from us and it kind of takes money away from us. But at the end of the day, Pierce Timber Company, we still pay the landowners for coals. So that's money coming out of our pocket. So that's things you start seeing whenever pulp markets are like this. see a lot of tightening down on wood, on specs and quality. You see I had a load of chip-n-saw all turned around about a month ago at a mill.
I was trying to get his load count up and he put too many small stems on a chip-n-saw load and he had like four or five you know five inch four inch and five inch tops on a six inch top spec a chip-n-saw load got turned around the mill all that so you start seeing more and more of that and I tell you would would five dollar and five dollar well five dollar and fifty cent diesel fuel that's an expensive trip back to the woods coming back loaded from
is the experience like that. So say you look at a track, you know the wood looks rough. You know, you may have a fair amount of cankered to it, know, low limbs that's going to affect log length for where they have to top it. And like you said, know, Pierce covers a lot of that coal.
Are you factoring that into your decision to buy the track or possibly what the stumpage is knowing that you're going to have issues kind of put forth with the track?
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up like I 110 % will take that into consideration looking at the wood quality of the stand looking at you know the stems out there are they naughty or they cankered What's my pulp wood percentage gonna be? This is gonna be this is gonna be some rough grading right here that this is gonna work the loader man to death right here Therefore, you know, that's more money. I'm putting into the logging rate less on the stump
Yes, that's all stuff that I take a look at and consider. And you've got to know your markets. mean, you've got to know where am I hauling the saw timber to? What kind of specs do they have? Are they going to care about the butt flare? Are they going to care about the cankers? What mill do I need to haul this track of timber to is what you need to be thinking when you get out there and you're taking a look at it.
Paul Jeffreys (23:32)
That's interesting. You should bring that up. So what does that look like when, you know, just to put it in a context, so what does that look like when a truck pulls up to a mill and they go out and let's say, you know, whoever's evaluating it, who typically would be evaluating that load of logs when it comes to the mill?
And then what does that typically look like when they say, uh-oh, this is not going to meet our criteria and, know, what happens in that process?
Blake Sherry (24:02)
Usually it's a scaler. The scaler will go out, walk the load.
Depending on the mood he's in I'm just kidding ⁓ a little bit ⁓ You know say Say someone consistently hauls something rough. They will kind of get a target on their back If they push the quality spec over and over again where other loggers if they are hauling and You know, they have maybe one bad load
Paul Jeffreys (24:11)
No. No.
Blake Sherry (24:31)
They don't have such a critical eye on them, but usually a scaler will go walk the load, identify coals, and.
If it's something that's real serious, kind of running up the flagpole to whoever the procurement forester is and start telling them, hey, this is a track we may have trouble with. at that point, the procurement forester should be talking to the wood dealer and saying, hey, we're seeing issues off this track. Can you go run to the woods and tell the logger to clean up the wood a little bit more?
And then ultimately, cleaning up the wood more means sending more wood to pulpwood, if that's what they're doing. And I mean, right now, Jim, I imagine most of y'all's pulpwood quota is going to clear cuts, right? Yeah, we're doing very little thinning right now. Some, but not much. Not like we were.
But yeah, like Blake said, a lot of that is going to the pulp mill. what Blake just said, that's what I talked about earlier. That's phone calls, phone calls, phone calls. It's not uncommon when you're dealing with, I think I looked at my quota sheet I did for my four crews two days ago. I was counting. think I've got right around 18 to 20 different mills that I deal with between those crews.
And I've got, you know, my sheet of quota, I've got my daily loads at each mill, know, by sawmill, pulp mill, pole mill, all that. All of them are different. All of them, you know, scalers are different, the procurement reps are different. So you're going to be getting calls at least once a day about some kind of issue. then if not five times a day, just it seems like when it rains, pours when one thing happens is a whole pile of things. But yeah, that's kind of where
where
Blake's talking about, know, they kind of called the procurement forester and kind of tell them what's going on. And it's up to us to kind of make sure it gets fixed in the woods and doesn't happen again. But Blake's right. When you've got a logger, this known as habitual violator on weights, spec, quality, log quality, they've got a target on their back. mean, when they see those trucks at the mill, they see that guy's logo
I mean I've got one I think of myself that cuts for me that is habitual on weights, overweights. Always pushing it to the limit on the weights, always hitting right there, right above the weight limit or right at it and it's just load after load after load. You kind of have to talk to them and they kind of get reeled in a little bit and it goes good for a while but then you'll see it again and that kind of thing. Very rarely do any of my guys
have many quality issues. It's usually, it's usually weights ⁓
Paul Jeffreys (27:12)
Well, I'm glad you brought that up, Jim,
there about the quality issue. So, you know, what can a landowner, let's turn this back here to what landowners and how the landowner can help with this whole situation and with these variable logs that are getting turned back at mills with these defects in them and everything. So from your perspective, how does forest genetics play into this
Blake Sherry (27:35)
You can probably speak to this, Jim, but there are certain land bases like large landowners that their wood looks different than other large landowners. I know I saw it when looking at tracks and don't have to say who's who, but certain wood does have a different look to it once it gets some age on it.
Yeah, Blake's exactly right. mean, with your larger land base kind of clientele we have, you know,
their seedlings. So most of them are planting their own seedling source. kind of know who's going to have the good timber on those tracks. And it's crazy. You'll go to one track that's 50 miles apart, but the trees will look identical because they came from the same seedling source that that land-based plants. I'll tell you a really good one I like, and this is kind of this is y'all's family tree that kind of precursor to ArborGen You can always tell when you pull on a
an old FIA track, formerly Union Camp track or something. And a lot of these stands are gone, but I'll tell you what, the best wood that we would cut, planted wood, would always be that Union Camp. I think it was 756 or 757 or something like that. What would...
Paul Jeffreys (28:42)
⁓ my gosh,
I knew you were going to bring that up Jim. Blake is laughing too. I knew that was going to come. I kid it. Blake, how many times have we heard that statement?
Blake Sherry (28:53)
756 is the the old king. And for those for those that don't know about 756. It was I mean, pretty well. I've one of the first generation trees that was picked out. Union Camp Forester found it.
Paul Jeffreys (28:54)
you
America's Tree.
Blake Sherry (29:09)
Excellent volume grower exceptionally straight for an open pollinated tree Pretty good rust score. The only real problem with it is that it forks a lot it forks it forks more than just about anything else and When you plant 600 trees of the acre and you can thin it out and get the force out then It's great But it's not a tree that generally recommend planting at a lower density so
Paul Jeffreys (29:10)
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes.
That's right.
Right.
Blake Sherry (29:35)
That's I mean we we still offer that tree but that is a in our lowest kind of category of tree now But those older 756 stands can what do they look like?
Paul Jeffreys (29:38)
Yeah.
Blake Sherry (29:47)
Usually when you you bought the track and you pull up to cut it and the pole company's been through there It's usually lit up with blue paint. I mean, that's all you see as far as I can see That is a good tree that ⁓ That's when you know, whenever you pull through a gate and you pull up to a track of wood. You're like boom That's the Union camp the 756 seedling right there you can tell it a big difference in that and a lot of others but ⁓
Paul Jeffreys (30:10)
Well,
some people call it the union camp up in my area over here in this area. It's called the IP tree. Uh, it's also called, the, uh, it's also called America's tree. It's 756 is just the king. Uh, when it, you know, when tree improvement started, that tree was discovered back in 1956. The, uh, it has been around that long and the, uh,
That tree is just known for its pole producing genetics. But like Blake said, it also has a forking gene in it. And like he said, that was never a problem when you could plant 700, 650 trees to the acre and you would have those first and second thinnings where you could go in and you could take out those forked trees, which was typically what was the main defect in the stands.
Leaving that what your residual stand was after those thinnings. my gosh guys. They were poles everywhere and wood dealers, poll buyers love those stands. have people that I work with in Mississippi and Alabama that, are just, you know, they say the exact same that y'all have never met. Jim, you've never met these people, but you say the, make the exact same statement. When you pull up on the track.
you can tell that is a stand of the old Union Camp IP 756.
Blake Sherry (31:36)
Yes, sir. Good, lush, green needles, ⁓ black checkered loblolly bark, straight as an arrow. And all of it's about probably an average 16 inch DBH tree. You know that's a 756 stand whenever you pull in.
Paul Jeffreys (31:40)
Healthy, healthy.
Well Blake, maybe you can tell us a little bit
about how we've used that at ArborGen and how we've, how 756 still works today.
Blake Sherry (32:01)
Well, that's just what I was looking up. I was looking at the percentile ranking. So on straightness for all the open pollinated families kind of within our population that we have, it's in the 80th percentile on straightness. It's in 90th percentile on volume for open pollinated families. It somehow has a negative percentile on forking. I don't know how that works, that is worse than everything else.
Paul Jeffreys (32:16)
Yes.
Yes.
do.
Blake Sherry (32:29)
else on forking. And like I said, it's all right. It's okay on rust. So that's where, you know, some of the improved families have come from where some of the MCP trees now, they can be above.
the best OPs in those percentile rankings. So they can be 110 % on straightness or, you know, they can be 120 % percentile on productivity. 756 is still, mean, for some areas, it's still a really relevant tree, a relevant family. But there's, you know, since the fifties, they've been able to kind of build on that and
and make some stuff that's as productive, as straight, but better forking, better rust resistance to make a holistically better family. And that's kind of like what y'all have moved to, some of those control pollinated trees that build upon that for what y'all have planted in past few years on your place.
Paul Jeffreys (33:12)
Mm-hmm.
Well, that gives
me a good segue there to Jim there as a timber buyer and a timber land owner, Jim, from a buyer's perspective, you're looking at, I'm sure when you're managing your family timber, you mentioned it's been in your family for so long. That is a legacy, legacy farm. Now that you're the manager, now that you're taking care of the timber on that, plus being a
a ⁓ timber buyer or a wood dealer, how does that segue into your management of your timber? How does your managing timber from a buyer's perspective?
But it sounds like you've got a process of genetic selection, then you've got a process of spacing and stand management, and then ⁓ you've got your own, you're making your decisions as you go based on your markets and everything, but at the same time, you're starting those stands with the end objective in mind, with the end goal in mind. Even though you may be older or it may be the next generation that's going to profit from that, you're still making those decisions.
based on that at that time.
Blake Sherry (34:32)
I was going to throw in there chip-n-saw for example like you said clear cut at 32 you know so you go to do a second thin or something like that and you get a smoking chip-n-saw price you feel like it's good considering the market
Do you decide to do something similar like that? Not just pulpwood, but say, chip-n-saw Not something that's going to be a final end product majority saw timber, but some of those kind of intermediate sizes. You entertain that as well?
yeah, absolutely. And that's something I do with landowners that I deal with a lot is, you know, I know their property, I know their kind of goals of financially what they want to do. And I kind of keep some things in the back of my mind and kind of in my back pocket, you know, a mill comes to me as a hey, we need we need y'all to get a couple of good tracks on the books, you know, here's, you know, playing with some pretty good money on something. Well, you know, I know,
I've got it written down. kind of in my book. know, Mr. Jones has got that 100 acre block ⁓ of chip-n-saw that would fit really good into this category that the mill has been giving me a good pricing on. So what you know what I'm going to call Mr. Jones, tell him, hey, I've got some good numbers behind me is probably time to, you you wanted me to let you know the next year or two would be a good time to pull the trigger on this. Well, now is a great time. And I'm not just trying to steer you in that direction. So we'll have wood to cut. But I'm coming to you with that.
Paul Jeffreys (35:49)
All
Blake Sherry (35:54)
because I want to see you succeed in your planning and your financial goals with your timber property.
Paul Jeffreys (36:00)
if you could give landowners two to three things to focus on today to improve their future timber value, what would that be Jim?
Blake Sherry (36:08)
I would start with, you know, what we talked about earlier. The biggest thing is the access. You've got to have good road systems around your stands of timber, going into your stands of timber. Your access is the absolute number one thing that's really going to be the deciding factor of whether you have a very desirable track of timber or a very undesirable track of timber from my point of view.
I'd say that that's probably number one. Number two is silviculture practices.
I can tell you, if I've got a lot on my plate and I don't have time, there's a lot of timber sales on the market or something, which I negotiate a lot of wood, but I also buy a lot of bid sales too. But if I need to buy some bid sales and I've got two I need to choose from and landowner A decided that they were just going to plant their stand and they weren't going to do any site prep spray and they're just going
going
to let it grow naturally. And that thing's an absolute jungle. versus landowner B. That's another sale, same kind of wood that's pretty clean. It'll take me half as long to cruise that track of timber as the nasty one. I'm definitely going with B. I mean, that's human nature. What would y'all do?
Paul Jeffreys (37:10)
Mm-hmm.
Right, exactly.
Blake Sherry (37:28)
I've gotten calls on stands before to go look at and you know wood dealers negotiate on a track hey I'd like to buy this you go out there let me know what you think and the reason they wanted me to go look at it is because they didn't want to walk through it themselves it was a jungle ⁓ so that does not get as good of pricing when I can't even see the wood to know what I'm looking at ⁓
Paul Jeffreys (37:43)
Yeah.
Exactly.
Blake Sherry (37:52)
burning, weed control, everything like that makes a huge difference from the mill perspective too.
But I would say that that's probably the biggest things is access, access, access, good access, good roads, good silviculture practices, taking care of the stands, that's going to make them more desirable. And I'll be honest with you, being a pleasant understanding landowner is probably number three. That's ⁓ probably my three take home points.
Paul Jeffreys (38:03)
Right.
Right.
Blake Sherry (38:22)
Yeah, I see so many people tripping over a dollar to try to get to a nickel. If you understand what I'm saying, they're going to get, you know, hung up on one little thing and not seeing the big picture. And those are usually the kind of people that you're going to be dealing with problems the entire time you're cutting their timber. And if I know Mr. Smith has a reputation of being like that.
I might answer his phone call or he run into him at a convenience store or something. know, well, know, Mr. Smith, very nice stand of timber, but I just don't think I'll be able to get to it. You know, we're pretty tied up. So I mean, the way, treat people the way you want to be treated. If I've got to deal with somebody that's
Paul Jeffreys (38:55)
Wrap.
Amen.
Blake Sherry (39:05)
a pain every single day about something, then I don't want to deal with them. So I mean, that's a big thing. A classic example of that to me is hunting season restrictions. You buy something lump sum, but you can't be out there during deer season or turkey season or squirrel season or something like that. You grew that timber out for 30 years, but it's going to lose value if you limitations
Paul Jeffreys (39:10)
Exactly
Blake Sherry (39:30)
on its access due to, you know, a hunting season or something like that. It's a it's kind of a it's a short term gain for a long term loss.
Paul Jeffreys (39:43)
Yes, yes, that can cause a lot of problems and it can cause people just to turn away and not, it can cost you money in the long run. It might have made you a little more money in the short run, but in the long term, it's gonna cost you a lot of money.
Blake Sherry (39:58)
100%. If I see something typically, I'd probably say not 100 % of the times, probably 70 % of the times, if somebody sends me a bid perspective and it says something there that you can't cut on it during a hunting season, I usually throw it in the trash. I mean, I hate to say that, but I mean, it's, it's, there's so many different variables in this business with weather and markets and everything else. There's a lot of times you have to have that 12 month contract.
You can't always cut it before deer season or after deer season.
And you're going to have to have that track for 12 months for that whole contract a lot of times. any kind of, I mean, the big thing with us is there's so much risk in this business. And this day and time, the risk is on us. I mean, it's our money that we're putting out there. And for Good Timber, it's large sums of money. ⁓
Paul Jeffreys (40:43)
Yes.
Yes.
Blake Sherry (40:49)
hundreds of thousands of millions of dollars that we've got out there at risk that nobody else has out and the landowners at risk for fire and storms and all that yes but we are sticking our necks out there at a huge risk so if I need to pull on that track of timber you know opening week of deer season when the guys have driven up from a state below and spent the week out there or whatever if I got to go out there that's our money tied up out there so if I need to be there then I'm
going to be there. And if I need to cut there, ⁓ we need to cut there. And that's kind of what Blake's saying. Yeah, that's something like that I typically steer clear of.
Paul Jeffreys (41:26)
Hunting, hunting,
hunting seasons come and go every year. They're, they're every year thing, but that harvest and those harvest timings and that, ⁓ when you get it, when you, the weather conditions and everything access, when you can get in and harvest that timber, that only comes around, you know, 25, 30 years for a final harvest for that clear cut or that thinning only comes around every 15 years, but those hunting seasons, they come around and they come and go every year.
And you know, it's just that much more valuable to be able to get in and get that timber. Plus, let's say that that's when you only can access that timber and it be your, do the least amount of damage to the soil of that stand and everything. Well, it's very vital for that land owner and that value of that land to get in there and get it when it's.
Blake Sherry (42:14)
That's exactly right. And I can tell you, I've told landowners this, and some of them are firm believers in it because they've seen it themselves. Some of the best deer I've ever killed have been over stands that are knee high, know, year old seedlings. mean, you'll see some of your better bucks in situations like that on clear cuts more so than a stand a 30-year-old wood
Paul Jeffreys (42:26)
yeah.
Blake Sherry (42:36)
Well, you can actually see, you know, can see a few hundred yards versus 30 yards and, know, in front of your face.
Paul Jeffreys (42:44)
Well,
I think in a closing thought, guys, we've gotten close to our time limit here. Might have gone over a little bit. We've chased a couple of rabbits. We went down a couple of holes and everything. But I think we've had an overall good conversation. But I think the takeaway message here is timber value is created over time. It's not just created at harvest. It takes management over those years of managing that timberland, keeping up with the
what is important to the timber buyer, the wood dealers, like yourself there, Jim, it takes time to keep that up. And it's just a one and done thing. it takes a lot of cooperation and a lot of effort on the timber land. But at the end of the day, it is a very rewarding process and it is very beneficial to the landowner.
to take care and to create that value over that time.
Okay, well good deal with that. With that being said, Reforestation Advisor Blake Sherry and Wood Dealer, Jim, thank you both for coming on. Thank you both for being a part of this episode of the ArborGen TreeLines podcast.
to learn more about ArborGen's approach, please visit our website at arborgen.com. Or if you have any questions about our seedlings, genetics, or getting in touch with Jim Parker with Pierce Timber.
If you would just reach out to your local reforestation advisor and if you don't know who that is you can find that information on our website at ArborGen.com. Again, I'm your host Paul Jeffreys and thank you for joining us on the ArborGen TreeLines podcast and we look forward to seeing you all next time. Have a great day.