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What are the parallels between faith and open source software? Join Henry Zhu for an off-the-cuff conversation between friends. Check out hopeinsource.com and nadiaeghbal.com/public-faith for the backstory!
Sonya: So Henry, I want to read
Matthew 20, which is the parable
of the workers in the vineyard.
I actually read this last night
because I'm reading through.
And it really resonated with me and I
felt like it was very relevant to our
current cultural moment, at least in
America, and maybe in other places too.
So I'm just gonna go ahead and it's not
very long, so I'll just read it and then
we can talk about it and what it means.
Oh, and this is Jesus speaking.
For the Kingdom of Heaven is like a
landowner who went out early in the
morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.
Now when he had agreed with the laborers
for a denarius a day, he sent them
into his vineyard and he went about
the third hour and saw others standing
idle in the marketplace and said to
them, you also go into the vineyard and
whatever is right, I will give to you.
So they went.
Again, he went out about the sixth
and the ninth hour and did likewise.
And about the 11th hour, he went
out and found others standing idle
and said to them, why have you
been standing here idle all day?
They said to him, because no one hired us.
He said to them, you also go
into the vineyard and whatever
is right, you will receive.
So when evening had come, the owner of
the vineyard said to his steward, call
the laborers and give them their wages,
beginning with the last to the first.
And when those came who were
hired about the 11th hour,
they each received a denarius.
But when the first came, they suppose
that they would receive more and they
likewise received each a denarius.
And when they had received it, they
complained against the landowner
saying, these last men have only
worked only one hour and you made
them equal to us who have borne
the burden and the heat of the day.
But he answered one of them and said,
friend, I am doing you no wrong.
Did you not agree with me?
For a denarius, take what
is yours and go your way.
I wish to give to this last
man the same as to you.
Is it not lawful for me to do what
I wish with my own things or is
your eye evil because I am good.
So the last will be first and the first
last for many are called, but few chosen.
Here endth the lesson.
Henry: What translation was that?
Sonya: That's the new King James version.
I love the poetry of the King James
version, but the new one is definitely
a little bit easier to understand,
I guess, to a modern reader.
In the original King James, they
say a penny instead of a denarius.
So there's also some like
translation update stuff.
But this parable in particular
really resonated with me right now.
Because it's sort of on the
face of it, unfair, right?
Like you have the people who work
more, who put in more hours, who
were as they complained there
during the heat of the day.
And then you have the people who got
recruited much later and who haven't
put in as much effort and the landowner.
Who is unto, what is the phrasing
exactly, it's like unto the kingdom
of Heaven decides to remunerate
them all the same, to give them all
the same payment for their labor.
And they aren't instantly happy about it.
But he says, this is my right and
my privilege to decide what to do.
You know, you got what I
agreed I would give you.
And you know, it's my decision to
decide to also give these other
people exactly what I gave you.
And within context of christian theology.
This serves as a metaphor for salvation,
really, that if you're the the most
righteous, meticulous person, I
don't know, it may seem unfair that
people who are not are also saved
or also eligible for salvation.
And this is a theme that
comes up in multiple parables.
You wanna mention the one
that came to mind for you?
Henry: Oh, I guess another one of
these garden metaphors, the parable of
the talents, and it was talking about
how a master gave a bunch of people
a different amount of money and then
one of them kind of buried it in the
ground 'cause he wanted to keep it for
himself instead of using it to multiply.
So that's more about like
stewardship of your actual money
or of your gifts and skills.
They're not taking
advantage of your potential.
So in some sense it's people that
could have been more ambitious,
where you're like, oh, I don't
want to do anything great.
But within you, there's potential
to do something, but you're
kind of squandering that.
Sonya: There's also the prodigal son.
It often circles back to like personal
responsibility and attending to
whatever your own obligations are.
Like, envy.
Mm-Hmm.
I, I read it as, as warning is
probably not the right word.
Like a reminder to not the spec in
your brother's eye, but the plank.
It's such a weird metaphor.
Henry: You don't notice
the huge log in your eye.
That's how bad that you don't
even realize your own problems.
Also, like self-awareness too of your
own sin in comparison to other people.
Sonya: Mm-Hmm.
Yeah.
I've always really liked.
This aspect of, of how it works, I
guess, that everyone is eligible.
No matter where you are in life, you
can come, sort of come to the table.
The landowner is very generous and as
you said, this is a persistent metaphor
across various parables like the garden
or the farm context, where God is the
landowner, is the person who sort of
oversees all of it, but you also have
responsibilities in terms of how you
engage and what you do with your labor.
And how you feel about it.
I think that's one of the things that's
really challenging about Christianity
is that it's not just about right
behavior or you know, striving to act
the right way, but there's also an
internal aspect in striving to feel.
Oh, feel the right way.
It sounds so restrictive and
it, I mean, it kind of is.
Henry: Yeah.
I think sometimes we make it more
palatable to people, but there's
a asking of you to be different.
It's not purely an external thing.
There's a change of heart that
results in external behavior.
Only doing the external behavior
is the example of the prodigal son.
If people aren't familiar with the
story, in essence, there's a younger son
that kind of takes the inheritance of
the father and he loses all the money.
And then at some point he
comes back to the father.
'cause he feels like maybe I
can be his servant at least.
And the father kind of like
runs, he's like looking for him
every day and he welcomes him
back and he has a whole feast.
But then the older brother was the
one that was doing everything right.
Every day he would do his
labor, all that stuff.
But then his true colors show up when the
younger brother comes back and he's not
happy that there's that party for him.
And so clearly he was doing
it for a different reason.
Right?
He is like, how come you
didn't give me a feast?
Sonya: Yeah, and this also recalls
another metaphor that Jesus uses, I
think multiple times, is that of the
lost sheep, that you have a flock and
you know, you here kind of standing
in for Jesus himself and you're happy
that all of your sheep are there.
But if one of your sheep wanders off
and falls into a crack, or is missing.
You're going to want to go look for
that sheep, and you're going to be
really overjoyed when you find it.
Or if the sheep comes and wanders
back, you're going to be delighted,
that your lost sheep has returned.
And I think the point being that,
you know, the other members of the
flock are not less valuable per se.
It's just really exciting and
wonderful when someone who
is lost returns to the fold.
Henry: Yeah, I mean, even that
behavior can seem weird if we're
thinking more utilitarian, right?
It's like, oh, it's just one sheep.
I have 99.
Do I really need another one?
Or whatever.
And I think that shows that God is
a personal God that cares for each
person, at least in this scenario.
Sonya: That's perhaps one
thing weird to modern readers.
I mean, we're so immersed in a kind
of like lay utilitarianism where like
we do things because they're useful,
like ROI incentives and I think all of
that is real and to some extent useful.
But I mean, it's really clear
reading the Bible that you
know, God is not utilitarian.
Jesus is not utilitarian.
It's pretty explicit that like the
things that happen on Earth are.
Important.
You know, it's important to approach
your earthly life with care.
Because you are preparing for your
next life, your life with the God.
Henry: And then you see that in the
example of Jesus himself, right?
Just his life, how he lived it.
The contrast between, you know, giving
these kind of sermons on the boat.
It's like a one to many, kind
of like a equivalent of a
Twitch streamer at this point.
But there's also him meeting
the woman at the well and people
that no one wants to talk to.
He does both.
Sonya: Yeah.
And especially with healing, I think, at
least the translation that I'm reading.
Always puts it as, you know,
he was moved with compassion.
It's like he meets someone individually.
It's almost like the
love flows out of him.
Henry: Even that itself can seem weird.
Mm-Hmm.
Why would God feel something?
Whatever our assumptions about who God is,
you know, when we kind of read that stuff.
Sonya: It can be sort of tempting to
look at it as like, oh, God is huge and
remote, and we're all sort of like ants
or like fingernail clippings or something.
Something where it's only an
insignificant part of the whole body.
I think of ants because I think
we tend to look at ants as
like not really individuals.
They're kind of part of the whole.
The larger apparatus, but the
Bible says that, no, that's not
at all how God looks at humans.
That each of us is precious and important.
Like you said, it's a personal God.
Henry: And the body of Christ.
The eyes can't do what the feet do.
That kind of thing.
Sonya: Circling back to the
responsibilities, this is another
thing that really resonates with me
and that I think really, really does
encourage people to grow and both be
more righteous, but also I, I think
it does pay off in terms payoff.
Gosh, I don't wanna use that
language, but I lack another.
Um, it benefits you as well, I
guess I will say, to have both
responsibilities and forgiveness.
Like Jesus is very demanding,
but also very forgiving.
But as you said, Jesus talks to the
lepers, Jesus talks to the prostitutes,
to the foreigners, people who are
outside of the chosen people and doesn't.
He at some point verbatim, instruct his
disciples to go to the Gentiles as well.
But overall, there's both a
high standard of behavior and
of internal feeling to which you
are, you know, called to live up.
At the same time, if it's a struggle,
like it's okay for it to be a struggle and
it's okay for it to be a work in progress.
You know, all of these things are
debatable 'cause there's definitely
an element of interpretation,
but that's how I read it.
I, I really feel that, that there's an
emphasis on personal responsibility on
improving yourself and focusing on that.
Which is not to say that you shouldn't
encourage others and sort of be in
community with your fellow Christians
and with your neighbors in general.
Henry: That's an interesting
point to bring up.
'cause a lot of criticism, some
people have of say, American
Christianity, is that maybe two
individual at certain points.
But I, I think it's both that we want to
emphasize like interdependence, right?
We have our own walk, but
it's not alone, right?
Mm-Hmm.
At first we have the Holy Spirit in us.
Which is kind of amazing.
If Jesus says, I'm gonna
send my helper right.
We have God in us to help us.
And also we have our fellow people
that we are walking with on, on this
journey and, and you could bring up
discipleship where I can't force anyone
to do anything, but I can help them grow.
Going back to the garden metaphor,
I can plant the seeds right?
But God is the one that
makes the growth happen.
Just like you can't make the plant grow
faster, you can only make an environment
such that the plant will grow at all.
That's related to like parenting.
Sonya: I think of what
Jesus says is the primary.
What are the foremost laws?
You know, what is the
most important thing?
And he says to love God
and to love your neighbor.
And in particular, loving
your neighbor as yourself.
That's a really tall order, and if
you think about what it means to love
other people as yourself, that's a lot.
It's really a lot.
I, I agree that it's very
much worth striving for.
I don't know that I ever feel
like I really achieve that.
I do try maybe in moments.
I think there are moments
where I do genuinely feel that
kind of love for other people.
And when I feel moved to help other
people to the degree that I help
myself, but it's rare, you know?
That's a big ask and I guess, I
think it's an appropriately big ask.
You know, Jesus was right to say that.
Henry: I think that context
was a, Pharisee was asking what
is the greatest commandment?
Sonya: Hmm.
That's what it is.
So something that listeners, I'm gonna
review for you, Henry and I, one of
the things that we've been wanting to
talk about is in the kind of online
subcultural circles that I run in, there's
been a burgeoning interest in, I guess
spirituality, not so much Christianity.
Specifically, although I think there's a
definite Christian strain, but in ritual
in things that are the non-material realm,
I guess both in terms of interchange but
also to some extent the supernatural.
There are even people who are going
in a more like occult direction, but
dissatisfaction with, you know, your
sort of lay scientific consensus,
which is not to say that people are
really rejecting science, but it's like
looking for more, what else is there?
And for me, that was definitely
part of why and how I came to
Christianity was part of this questing.
I really felt that rationalism
was insufficient for a good life.
And I still like rationalism.
I think there's a lot of value there.
I guess for me personally, I feel like
it's necessary but not sufficient.
One thing in retrospect is that it
doesn't really ask a lot of you, like it
asks you to try to be correct, I guess.
I don't feel like that's enough
responsibility or enough obligation to
call people to become their best selves.
And I think that it's both something
that's scary about Christianity.
That it involves responsibilities, that it
involves thinking about what God deserves,
not just what you deserve, and what God
deserves from you, and then also what
you know, sort of by extension what the
other people around you deserve from you.
It's scary because it's a lot.
It's hard.
I think it's also attractive, you know.
I don't think it's really enough for
people to not have some kind, you
know, like we yearn for community
and connection and I think the sort
of hedonistic standard where it's
just all for fun is not enough.
And I think there's a reason
why, you know, generation upon
generation of humans have.
And I mean, not even just specifically
Christianity with other religions
too, have sought obligations that
both, that bind them together and
that bind them to a higher power.
What do you think?
Henry: Yeah, there's a lot there.
Obligation is interesting.
Maybe that's really on point,
where a lot of religions try to tie
what is true with what is moral.
And I think Rationalism tries to
separate those two things, or don't
even bring up that idea at all.
Christianity is about saying
that truth is a person and
truth involves action as well.
And maybe that relates to how we
conceive freedom, where freedom is
free from people telling me what to do.
But now it feels like there's a
point where you might say like, oh,
I want someone to tell me what to do.
And that burden that I have of
like, what is my meaning and
what I should do is too much.
Sonya: The freedom
thing makes me think of.
There's a Reddit post that I really like,
which is the parable of the wood carver.
I'll try to find a link later and send
it to you, but I'll briefly summarize it.
What the post is about is a contrast
between freedom from and freedom to, as
in like external influence or freedom
from constraints imposed on you by others
and tracingwoodgrains is their username.
Used to be a Mormon but is no longer,
so this is like in a Mormon context,
but it's not very like Mormon specific.
He talks about how you can have
this freedom from, but there's, it's
also important to have freedom too,
which is the freedom of capability.
And he gives the metaphor of a wood
carver where if you put wood carving
tools into my hands, or presumably
your hands, unless you're secretly a
master wood carver, and I don't know.
No, we wouldn't really have any freedom to
do anything with these wood carving tools.
So maybe we could like get some
chunks out of a piece of wood.
The master Woodcarver, who has
spent a lifetime using these
tools and honing his skill.
He has the freedom to make all
kinds of beautiful things, useful
things using these tools because
he's put in the time and he has the
practice and that kind of freedom.
The freedom to build, the freedom
to act, the freedom to create.
But it does depend to some
extent on the freedom from being
able to choose what you do.
But it also depends on having
built up your skill, sort of
shaping and training yourself.
And I think that this is something that.
Is definitely part of Christianity.
I think the freedom of the
Kingdom of Heaven, perhaps.
I don't know that we can necessarily
really access that on earth in our
mortal lives, maybe, I don't know.
It's kind of debatable, but that
kind of freedom is something
that I think naive utilitarianism
doesn't necessarily call you.
In the same way to pursuing
that kind of freedom.
Maybe that's a little overstating.
Things like, I don't wanna say that
utilitarians don't do anything, and I
think there are utilitarians who feel
their moral obligations really strongly
like the effect of altruism movement.
Mm-hmm is an example.
I wouldn't be surprised if there are fair
few effective altruist Christians who
see it as a kind of natural marriage.
Because, I mean, it's all
about wanting to help people.
To the maximum extent possible
according to a certain definition.
And that's always the tricky part
is like, how do we define the good?
Henry: Yeah, you need negative
freedom in order to have that
direction where you should go.
I mean, that's sort of like
the modern predicament.
Well, if you're free from
everything, what now?
That's the beginning of it.
Now I can do anything, but
I think for most people we
don't have a good direction.
We're lost.
You're in the wilderness, so maybe
not anymore, but you go on a plane,
you go travel somewhere and try
to like find yourself, right.
Belonging or something.
You find where you're supposed
to be in some kind of community.
Sonya: Yeah.
That also really resonates
with me, the idea of belonging.
That's certainly how I felt.
Coming back to Christianity, just it was
like a feeling of everything lining up.
Often to me, reality feels very layered
and all the layers kind of aligned.
I guess you could call it
an epiphany of some sort.
It almost feels a little presumptuous
to say that I had an epiphany.
'cause to me it feels like
a very grand notion and it
didn't feel grand necessarily.
It felt more intimate, I would say.
I'm thinking of this specific
incident where I was sitting and
praying and there was a rainbow.
There was literally a
rainbow in front of me.
Just because it was raining,
it was a normal rainbow.
But I was looking at the rainbow
and thinking about what rainbows
signify in the Bible and in the..
I wanna say like the Christian mythos,
but I don't mean that in a detracting way.
I mean, it sort of like
the system of thought.
You know, I felt like I was
experiencing God's love, you know.
This actually, this was kind of before I
had really like committed to converting.
I was still kind of exploring,
but it was a very formative moment
because feeling things viscerally
is so important, or at least in my
experience it has been, especially
for changing my mind about anything.
Having that visceral
experience and firsthand..
I'm not very good at learning
from other people's mistakes.
I only learn from my own mistakes.
And it's kind of the same
with everything else.
You know, non mistakes kind of learning.
And I did a lot of pondering
after that and I, I don't really,
I think of God as supernatural.
I think of God as supranatural.
I was thinking about like, okay,
what literally happened when
I was having this experience?
'cause I, I had to figure out.
What happened?
I'm not really the kind of person
who can like leave well enough
alone with that kind of thing.
I had to like dissect it.
Or maybe a better way to put it
is that I couldn't not dissect it.
And I was like, okay, this
is a psychological experience
that my brain produced.
And then I had this moment.
I was like, well, why can't that be God?
You know, if God is is all
powerful and spans everything, why
would that be outside of God's?
Capabilities, obviously not.
So it was a very formative moment, like
I said, and I think going through the
pondering afterwards was also important.
It forced me to think about the literal
level as well as the metaphysical level.
Again, I would go to the layers they
feel stacked, where there's like a
pattern that runs through all of them.
And that experience allowed
me to see the pattern.
Henry: Yeah, you had this psychological
response, but on top of that it's
like God maybe used that to show you
something, but they're just where you
see it, right in the stack, I guess.
Sonya: And it's also like, why did
I have that psychological response?
Because I was praying and
I was intentionally, I.
Putting myself in that state,
I was reaching out to God.
And you know, I do think we have the
biological mechanisms to do this and
there's a reason why we evolved that.
Like I personally completely by evolution.
I think that's all real.
But I think it is also God's work.
I guess I don't see any
contradiction there.
Like God set the starting conditions and
in some sense is the starting conditions.
Mm-Hmm.
From which we eventually emerge.
And I, I think God is the reason
why humans have turned out the
way that we are designed us in
his image as the Bible says.
I guess as science has progressed, our
conception of what that means, or I guess
how that manifests in a sort of like
biological material sense has changed.
I.
I don't see the original idea as
any less legitimate than it was
like, I think they were right.
I guess the ancients like figured
it out pretty well, and then I
think Jesus came and completed
the figuring out, and here we are.
That's my.
Attempt to unify, you know, our
sort of material history and
our science with what the Bible
teaches us and with the continuing
practice of Christianity teaches us.
So that's another thing
that's really beautiful.
It's the, the apostolic church,
you know, it passes from person
to person all the way back to
Christ when he was here on earth.
Henry: Yeah, that might be an appealing
thing too, regarding like ritual, right?
Not to mean that old things necessarily
have to be right or or good like the
Lindy effect where old things that
last longer will last even longer.
But there's something that is unique to
any old religion where like seeing hymns
that other people have sung for thousands
of years, that's like pretty amazing.
Some people are trying
to turn back to like old.
Ways of doing liturgy and worship.
The opposite is taking the content of
Christianity or the message, I guess,
and putting it in the medium of whatever
happens to be popular at the moment.
Livestream, church, pop worship music.
Which is all good, but..
Sonya: The like youth pastor stereotype.
Henry: That was done with the
intentions of getting people into
the message, but we're separating the
form and the content and I realized
that those forms has its own message
that might tie better to Christianity
than trying to do the opposite.
We're losing something about
kind of adapting to the times.
Sonya: Yeah, I guess I, I have a
sort of both perspective on that.
Like I think that, yeah, it's important to
sustain and revive the, the older way as.
That have kind of fallen off.
But I also like, I really like
Kanye West and actually some of
Kanye's more recent work has been
specifically Christian music.
Right.
But you know, in like rap form
or kind of both rap and gospel,
like he weaves it together.
That's good too.
You know, there is something though
where it's like you want it to be.
For lack of a better word, authentic,
because it feels like there's a difference
between kind of like grafting it on and
kind of like trying to make it, it's
like a, how do you do fellow kids thing?
Like is it being used as like a marketing
technique or is it a, this is the
form through which the spirit flowed?
I don't know.
Yeah, and maybe it's kind of
presumptuous to say that You
could tell from the outside.
Maybe a better way to put it is that
there's definitely some Christian art
that I feel really resonates with me
and it feels sincere and it was meant to
come in that form and some, not so much.
Maybe that's just my aesthetics.
Henry: Yeah.
I don't want to say that we
should go back to a certain way.
It is just like, how do we.
Truly understand the new forms, but
then also really understand what is
the Christian faith and how do we kind
of really relate the to it culturally.
We have to understand both
and and be aware of that.
A lot of times we just like to
tack on things, like you said,
and it doesn't really work for
christians or non-Christians.
Sonya: There are so many beautiful
old monasteries and old cathedrals,
some of which still have services
or still have people living
there who are keeping the faith.
And I find that really beautiful and
I, I agree with you that it's not
like old things are like automatically
good, but there is still the things
that have survived through the ages.
So for a reason by some mechanism,
like there's something there, like
they wouldn't survive if there
wasn't some like there, there, and
it's worth going to look for it.
Christianity itself could
be looked at from that lens.
Something that can seem kind
of quaint and archaic from the
outside, but from the inside it's
just as fresh and alive as ever.
I think.
Henry: We kind of touched
on that last time.
The experience you have, it really is a
whole new world of like the history of all
these things and assumptions that we had
about it on the outside that became more..
Not even clear.
In some sense, it could be
more complicated, right?
Now I understand that this stuff
is a lot more deep than I thought.
Yeah.
Sonya: Oh, that's definitely how I feel.
I mean, it's been wonderful.
It's been really, it's
been exciting, you know?
And there's a rejuvenation.
Henry: I think if you're not a
Christian, it could be like an academic
exercise, like, oh, I just want
to learn the history or something.
But no, you're evoking awe and wonder.
If you are like super rationalists.
A lot of people get that
from the cosmos, right?
Like, Mm-Hmm.
Seeing that there's a lot out there,
that there's complexity in the
world and that gives them wonder.
But yeah, a lot of times we, we
just like to reduce everything.
Hope that it's like legible to us.
Sonya: Mm-Hmm.
Christianity is so
particular like, you know.
Henry: Yeah.
Sonya: Some very specific tenets.
There's specific beliefs, especially
around like Christ himself, who
he was, the nature of Christ.
That can be kind of offputting to
people, that it is both, I don't even
wanna say unscientific necessarily, but
it's not like justified by math, right?
Like you can't like do a prove
a theorem that you know says
Christianity is true or something.
You have to decide like
this particular thing.
Yes.
It's like you find a way to say yes
without having I, I don't know, like a
double blind experiment or something.
'cause it's not that kind of thing.
I guess it would be like trying to,
trying to say that some historical event
is like proofed by math or something.
It's like the wrong kind of evidence.
Henry: That's, I mean
that's what faith is.
Sort of why I feel like that
kind of apologetics was just
already admitting that we failed.
Like our lives should be the argument
for Christ in some sense actually.
Sonya: You shall know
them by their fruits.
That's another line that I've
been thinking about a lot.
And that's also like a garden.
It's an orchard metaphor.
Henry: Yeah.
And that question is
what are those fruits?
And if we are the tree, are we a
isolated tree or are we grafted
into the tree that is Christ?
And how does that relate to
like all the people around us?
Sonya: And he also points out in keeping
with the body metaphor later, this
kind of tree has this kind of fruit.
So that kind of tree is
this other kind of fruit.
And then, you know, there are
also forms that don't have fruit.
I mean, it's form and function.
Again, what you are sort of the
shape determines what comes out.
Henry: Especially modern people,
it's mostly about the efficient
cause, like cause and effect.
But the formal cause
is actually about form.
Sonya: As in like having to do
with like shapes and morphology.
Henry: Like why does that matter?
It's just like the shape
changes what happens.
Sonya: The why.
And the why is something that
really just can't be scientifically
answered, or you can answer it on
a sort of efficient cause level.
You can't answer that why on a formal
cause level with science, really.
Henry: The final cause
would be like the purpose.
Right?
That's the other thing.
Nothing has purpose,
it just does it, right?
Sonya: It's something that people
really want, like this crisis of
meaning is something that people
have been talking about a lot.
There's like something
missing in our culture.
And I guess I think what's missing is God.
Henry: Sarah of Ribbonfarm had a post like
ambiguity as meaning, something like that.
A lot of meaning comes outta the
fact we don't know specifically.
Sonya: Yeah.
It's so hard to talk about this because I
feel like, and maybe that's a feature, not
a bug, that it's hard to talk about talk.
It feels like language
doesn't really encompass it.
It's like trying to talk about what
happens inside a black hole, you know?
Mm-Hmm.
Like, it just completely
breaks all of our.
Things like causality disappearing or
time inverting, it just doesn't match with
sort of the way that we typically interact
with the world and all the intuitions
that we have built up about that.
I think a lot of like theology and even
liturgy is trying to kind of bridge
that gap in a different language from
our everyday kind of lay language.
And it's not even, language
doesn't go far enough.
It's like a different ontology.
It's like a different, this
is the structure of things.
So I, I would go again to like
Jesus not being a utilitarian or
not being like even consequentialist
necessarily in a straightforward way.
It can kind of jar with
our intuitions, right?
Where it's like you do stuff
because there's a benefit I.
Which is not to say that there
are no benefits, but that's
not the reason why you do it.
Henry: Well, that can't
be the first reason.
I was reading a book called
In The Vineyard of the Text,
and it's also by Ivan Illich.
A lot of murals and paintings in like
cathedrals, they have those halos
on top of the saints heads, right.
And it's like that gold color that like
glitters when you're looking at it.
And in this passage it
says that the painter.
They represent the world as if all
beings contain their own source of light.
Light is imminent in the world
of medieval things, so basically
everything gives off its own light.
It says you feel that if their
luminosity were extinguished.
What is in the picture will
not cease to be visible, but
also cease to exist altogether.
But for us, we, we know we're
shining a light on things that exist.
If there's no light, obviously
those things still exist.
But in that world, like the way
they put it makes it look like all
things have their own light and
they're giving off light to our eyes.
Sonya: Makes me think of, I can't
remember if we talked about this before.
There are people who see auras and you
know what exactly they're seeing or
like what produces what they're seeing.
I don't really know.
Mechanistically, I'm sure it
happens in their own brain, but
that is not a reductive thing to me.
I guess I feel like everything we
experience, to some extent happens
in our own brains, but I don't think
that that means that it's not real.
Where am I going with this?
Just that when you were
talking about halos, it made me
think of people seeing auras.
I guess my thought on that is
that I don't think they're seeing
something that's not there, per se.
Right.
I think they're seeing something that
most of us don't see in that way.
Henry: Yeah, the new age thing
would be like, oh, they're
getting officer and energy.
But then normal talk people are
like, oh, they have this vibe, right.
Sonya: Yeah, it's interesting there.
There's like accepted woo, and then
there's like woo that's kind of out there.
But if you look at it closely, a
lot of the assertions are similar.
Maybe it depends on how
many people experience it.
Like almost everyone, I think.
Feels some kind of like vibe, you know,
it's like the mood of a situation or
somebody else, but not everyone has
like a synesthesia of like seeing it
in like a colored light kind of way.
I don't see either of those as like
less legitimate than the other.
I just see them as different.
Now I'm thinking, what else is accepted?
Woo.
I feel like that'd be a fun
thing to try and figure out.
It's kind of invisible by nature.
It's like part of our folk
psychology of how things work.
Henry: I think like the feeling you
get within the first few seconds
of talking to someone, you're
like, oh, we could be friends.
People say that all the time.
Mm-Hmm.
That's normal.
And you can't really describe that either.
Sonya: And there's like this sort of
rationalist, like scientific impulse.
Still deconstruct it and break it down
into like, okay, well you're looking at
their facial features or you're picking
up on cultural markers and stuff.
And I don't think that's necess, I
don't think it's wrong, but I guess
I would call it again, insufficient.
I'm big on phenomenology.
I really like the sort of the
experience and beingness happening.
This as a way of exploring
the nature of things.
Our sensing apparatus is so powerful.
It's super powerful.
Intuition is amazing.
Instinct is amazing.
I, I guess I do see
those things as sacred.
They're emanating from
our spirit in some way.
Henry: To see the sacred in what
is secular or what is normal, and
I think that's something that I'm
trying to understand better too.
Even as Christians, you might try to
think that certain things are more holy.
Anything can be sacred in some sense,
but you don't wanna take it too far.
I think there's two extremes, right?
It's like one is like there are specific
things that are sacred and the other thing
is that everything is sacred to the point
where you don't even know like anymore.
Sonya: I think of sacredness
as almost sort of like a mode.
Or like a way of being?
So I guess the way that I would try to
sort of unify those is that like certain
acts, certain experiences pull you more
strongly into the sacred mode, but I do
think it is present and accessible for
most, maybe all of our lives there are,
say the Christian dissidents who got
sent to the Gulag in the Soviet regime.
You know, the Gulag is like a prison.
Labor camp is not what you would normally
think of as very sacred space, but
if you are enduring and resisting and
keeping your faith, there's something
very sacred in that, despite the setting.
And that's a very extreme example,
but I think that kind of like mismatch
between the sort of superficial
what's going on and then what is
going on inside is, I don't know.
It feels significant to me, I guess.
Henry: I like that.
Some other people that I know have
a lot more interest in meeting in
person, even though we can't, so we are
kind of doing this sort of mini house
church thing outside, and all that
means is getting together and doing
a church service on our own, right?
You pray, someone gives their own
little sermon, do some worship.
That's where I feel like God is there.
You know the whole, where two or three
people are gathered, God is with us.
I feel a lot more edified and fulfilled
doing that then like listening to the
last few months of livestream church.
Even though we have a lot more people
there, we have this whole production,
but the fact that it's normal activities
and normal people, something about
that can be its own sacredness.
Right.
Sonya: Yeah.
I think that's really beautiful.
Ah there.
I mean this came up in our earlier
conversations, we're embodied, we are
flesh and those things are important too.
Being together in person, even if
it's not like normal, you know, I'm
sure like you guys took precautions.
You're not like running
up and hugging each other.
Presumably I wouldn't judge,
but you know, probably other
people would, but it's important.
I don't know.
It's important to be with each
other, which is not to say I
think it's good to do the virtual
stuff also, but it's not the same.
Henry: We could have had
this podcast in person.
Sonya: Yep.
Have you done any podcasts in person?
That would be interesting.
Henry: Yeah, I have.
It's 'cause I went to
their city basically.
I remember I did it with Nadia,
like I was in San Francisco.
Or she came to New York and we did it.
Sonya: Did that feel different
from other podcasting?
Henry: Yeah, in a way because.
Well, you're more aware that they're..
When you're doing it online, you know
that they're listening and looking, but
it's different when you're in person.
Yeah.
You're also not aware because I can be
more comfortable with myself, like knowing
that the person's right next to you.
Sonya: Maybe more, not so much in
your conscious sensing apparatus
and more in your intuition.
Henry: Yeah, and just more intimate.
Yeah.
I can't tell if I'm more myself.
Because it is like, you wanna
be able to forget where you are
and just be in the conversation.
In that sense, our minds are almost
like, you know, fusing or whatever
you wanna call it, during that dance
of talking and having dialogue.
Actually, I, I think it
depends on the person too.
You know, certain people actually
would rather, you know, do it online.
Nadia herself was saying that when she
does the podcast, she would rather us not
have the video like audio only because
it actually helps her concentrate better.
Sonya: Oh, that's interesting.
Yeah, being on video is something
that people have been talking
about, like zoom fatigue.
It's, it's almost like physically weird.
There was something else that
I wanted to say about religion
that I've now forgotten.
Oh, community.
Something you brought up earlier.
We all do have our own path,
but community is important.
I think it's a really important
part of Christianity in particular.
You know, it's an important part
of many religions, but we've been
mostly talking about Christianity.
I mean, certainly there is the path
of, you know, like going off to be
a hermit in the desert, but I think
much more common is to have like a
congregation, you know, sort of a
community of faith and of praise.
I feel like praise is something
that the, like modern kind of
secular mind, what is the equivalent
of praise for secular people?
And I don't know that there really is one?
Not like glorification?
And I think it can come across
as like pretty weird actually
without being inside Christianity.
Especially like the idea of..
Say like Job, you know, Job
in the midst of his torment.
The idea you could go through stuff like
that or that anyone could go through stuff
like that and then praise the creator.
You don't necessarily expect to
get anything out of praise, right?
That's not really like the point, I guess.
Praise coexisting with suffering is like
from a utilitarian perspective, weird.
Henry: I was reminded of a quote from CS
Lewis talking about praise in general,
that you said something like, we delight
to praise what we enjoy and who we like
because it doesn't just express what we
like, but also completes the enjoyment.
It is it's appointed consummation,
so telling people that you like
them, it's a good thing for you.
We praise people all the time.
Our friends, celebrities, people that
we like online, you know, we go out of
our way to tell them like, good job.
Why wouldn't we do that
with God of all people?
Right.
Sonya: I like that.
That's a great quote.
It's like a fulfillment.
Henry: It's the end of it.
Going back to this whole like, we
can't help but want to praise God.
Yeah, and I think that is what glory is.
It's like when you see something
that is glorious, you have
to tell someone about it.
You're gonna just shout it out.
You're gonna tell yourself,
wow, this is amazing.
Sonya: That makes me think of how nature
is sort of awe-inspiring in its own
right, but it also helps people, including
myself, connect with God that the mm-Hmm.
Yeah.
And I love the way that you put
it, that it's so wonderful, how
could you help but, say something.
Henry: I think in the quote he was
saying, that there's like an author
that you like and you just need to tell
everyone how amazing this person is.
And another one he said was a good joke.
That goes back to the chief end of
man, is to glorify God and enjoy him.
So that ties together what our purpose
is and that we actually want to do that.
It's not like, well, why does God
want us to tell him how amazing he is?
Isn't that like a megalomaniac.
The only reason why this is
okay is because he deserves it.
Why would I wanna praise
someone that doesn't?
Sonya: I really like a good joke
also because it's like asking,
why did you laugh at a joke?
You know?
And there's a sense in which
you can sort of dissect that.
But really the reason
is because it was funny.
So it's like the same thing with God.
It's like, why would you praise God?
Okay, I can deconstruct some reasons, but
the main one is because he is glorious.
Henry: My friend Justin showed me this
essay called A World Without Laughter, and
it's making equivalent faith and humor.
Basically a sense of humor is
like having a sense of faith.
And the story is these other people
don't know how to laugh and I guess
the government or some company they're
trying to like make us and no one
laughs 'cause they think it's bad.
So they make pills and take people
to hospitals to try to get rid of it.
And then people create their
own little places, basically
church, to do that on their own.
But other people are trying to
audibly make those sounds, but
they don't actually feel it.
And they're like, oh,
that's not how it works.
Sonya: Actually.
I feel like that helps with the, how
can this coexist with suffering, right.
Or how can you, you know, feel for
the terrible situations that other
people are in and still glorify God.
And I love laughter as a way..
Like gallows humor is a thing, right?
Like when you're in the depths
of despair, humor can be one of
the things that sustains you.
Mm-Hmm.
And I think it's similar with
faith and with glorification, that
it's not an impulse that goes away
because of those circumstances.
And it's not a mode
that is like turned off.
Yeah, I wonder are there many Christian
dissonance throughout history?
How did they endure?
And I think that's one of the ways.
Henry: Yeah.
I wanna learn a little
bit more about Bonhoeffer.
I don't know if you're familiar with him.
Sonya: No.
Henry: Dietrich Bonhoeffer, he has
two books that are pretty well known.
One is called Life
Together, about community.
And the other one is called
The Cost of Discipleship.
Hmm.
I, I think the first two words in
that book is Cheap Grace, and he was
talking about how we basically tape
grace for granted in that sense.
And I actually, we were talking about
obligation that grace, even though
it is free from God, that it's.
Something we don't deserve.
It is something that does require us to
do something right after it's given to us.
There's a responsibility, and
I guess not taking on that
responsibility is the insult.
Mm-hmm.
To the grace that has been given to you.
Sonya: Yeah.
Oh, that reminds me of another parable.
The one of the wedding, or I'm,
there are multiple wedding scenarios.
Yeah.
But the one I'm thinking of specifically
is there's a man who, I think it's his
son, he wants to hold a wedding for,
I'm not positive, but he sends out his
servants to invite people to the wedding,
and the people don't wanna go to the
wedding and they treat his servants
badly, and I think they kill one of them.
I'm misremembering the details,
but the gist of it is he tries
to invite people to the wedding.
They repu the invitation.
So he is like, he tells the servants,
all right, well just go invite
anyone, you know, just go and go
out into the countryside and invite
anyone you come across, and they're
welcome to come to the wedding.
And so a bunch of people who get
invited are all excited and they get all
dressed up and they come to the wedding.
And you know, it's all good.
But then there's another guy who got
one of the invitations and he comes to
the wedding and he is not dressed up,
he's not like excited for the wedding.
He's just kind of like showing up
maybe for the free food or whatever.
And the host is like, Hey, why
are you not ready for the wedding?
Why are you not all dressed up?
And the guy doesn't really have an answer.
He is like, um, I don't.
And the host roses him out and casts
him out into the outer darkness.
So there's wailing of gnashing of teeth.
And that, I mean, it's, that's harsh.
It's very harsh.
But I think it is, at least
my reading of it, is that it's
about this, do you come prepared?
Do you come ready to celebrate?
Are, are you transformed?
Are you just responding to the invitation
or are you really becoming a guest?
Hmm.
I guess that is another obligation, you
know, to treat it with the sincerity and
with the, the seriousness that it merits.
Henry: You come as you are, but then
once you have encountered Jesus, our
life is that process of continual
transformation to become like him.
And I think the wedding
metaphor is really good.
Actually, in the House church thing, I
really appreciated my friend that was
trying to do this mini sermon thing.
He talked about the different
wedding, basically Jesus's first
miracle, which is the Cana, so his.
Mom was like, can you
turn the water into wine?
So that was his first miracle.
And why was it at a wedding and
why was it turning water into wine?
And he also talks about how Genesis,
in some sense, is a wedding, right?
Adam and Eve.
And at the end, in Revelation,
when we're in heaven, that is
also depicted as a wedding.
The wedding feast of when
everyone comes and we're all
eating bread together, right?
Same with communion.
Hmm.
So that's a interesting parallel
of like the beginning and the end.
And this part, and I guess our lives is
a preparation for that wedding feast.
But the metaphor is that
the church is the bride.
Right.
And Christ is the groom.
So that's the other wedding
and the, the church needs to
prepare to, to go to heaven.
Right.
It's just cool to see that throughout
and, and I don't have a point with
this, but like just trying to tie in
all these thoughts that we had around
gardening too in the beginning was
the gardening the Eden with the fruit.
I.
And then he pointed out that the
water into wine is really interesting
too, because when we go to heaven,
it's not just a repeat of the past.
We're not just going back to a garden.
It's a transformation.
It's a redeeming of the old.
We're gonna go to a city
like the garden to city.
And then water into wine is interesting
because it's not just like water,
but like wine is the refinement of
fruit, which is also in the garden.
So there's like whole nother parallel.
Sonya: Yeah, this is like
one of the layered nesses.
Layeredness.
There's another word for that that doesn't
sound ridiculous that I'm not remembering.
Stratification, I guess.
But that has a whole
different connotation.
But oh, I just love how it resonates.
It feels almost like a vibration
that goes through the whole stack.
Henry: Hmm throughout the whole story.
Sonya: I love that.
Henry: It's really easy to pick out
random things here and there, but how
does that relate to the whole thing?
It is a part of something
that spans the whole time.
And I really like the point you made
about Christianity being particular.
I used to think that's not really a
big deal, but I think that's kind of
unique to comparison to say, in my
experience, of like Buddhism, right?
Hmm.
It's very abstract in some sense.
It doesn't even matter who said it, like
the truth could be out there somewhere.
But with Christianity it's
kind of saying the opposite.
I, I mean, there is compatibility
there, but truth is contained
within the person of Christ.
And that he was an actual person at
a certain time and a certain place.
Sonya: Yeah.
That specificity, I think it, it,
it makes it very hard to accept
in some ways, but it also..
Once you're inside of it, is is
also part of the power of it?
Henry: I think so.
Especially the phenomenology part of it.
The story itself is personal.
God is personal.
And it makes it look like reality is
personal and that the way I should
live my life is very relational.
Sonya: And there's a chronology,
you see this also in the before
Christ and then ano Domini.
It was very much understood that way.
It's like it transforms history.
And history is pretty like
material and specific as well as
transforming the spiritual realm.
I mean, you can see it on
the material level also.
Christianity is pretty
historically important, even
from a secular perspective.