Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Welcome to In-Orbit, the fortnightly podcast exploring how technology from space is empowering a better world.
[00:00:05] Dallas Campbell: Hello and welcome to this episode of In-Orbit. It's the podcast exploring how technology from space is empowering a better world down here on planet Earth. Brought to you by the Satellite Applications Catapult. I'm your host, Dallas Campbell, and this week the episode is a rather special edition live from the ISAM conference. Now we actually hosted the conference earlier this year in Belfast, in partnership with our friends at the UK Space Agency, and in this panel we explore European Perspectives of ISAM covering topics from strategic vision and policy and institutional support to international collaboration and competition.
[00:00:49] Juan Bevan: So thank you everyone. Thank you to our panelists for joining me on stage and thank you for everyone in the room to attending this session. The dynamic of how we're going to go about this session today is each panelist will get a five minute presentation to the start of the discussion, discussing their roles and the touch points with ISAM
giving some level of context as to what the organizations are doing in this domain and a bit of their experience to give their European perspective of what activities are taking place.
So GMV is an innovation technology group that got its roots in the space industry. We operate across many different sectors, mainly being, ground space systems, for flight and ground, as well as navigation.
Our heritage dates back to 40 years, and we are a Spanish based company with headquarters in Madrid. The touch points that I wanted to talk to you about today on the basis of what we do for ISAM following, very nicely from, Luna's presentation is the precursor as an example, to what was the ISAC and similarly to Mario, the development that we did in Mirror, which was, an ESA project covering the preliminary design and development of a flight system breadboard demonstrator, which we tested in our platform yard facility. The objective of this activity, is the development of a multi-arm robot, very similar to Mario, equipped with standard interfaces for the in orbit assembly of a multi ring telescope reflector.
Following in that vein, the next activity that I wanted to talk to you about regarding, ISAM applications was IOA&T, which is yet another ESA project covering in orbit assembly of large antennas. The objectives of these project were twofold. First, to study technologies that enable in orbit assembly of large antennas, and secondly, to address GNC and system challenges focused on the variation of properties and system logistics, propellant consumption, and overall system autonomy.
Finally, I wanted to talk about our MICE and CAT interfaces. MICE is a passive single part mechanical interface to enable cooperative and non-cooperative capture of spacecraft at end of life, and it is the baseline adopted by ESA for the Copernicus Sentinel Expansion Mission satellites. In conjunction to that, there is the CAT system, which is a satellite capture payload for ADR compatible with the MICE interface. With that, then hopefully, I pass on to Irene who can talk about her presentation from an ESA perspective.
So, Irene.
[00:03:25] Irene Huertas Garcia: G
ood morning Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak the presentation, on the perspectives of ISAM from the European Space Agency.
There is a roadmap. We are working indeed, on what's the European perspective between now and in the next 20, 30 years. But, it's not just European perspective for the future. It is already a reality today. We have several projects that we're working on with industry. I am going to name a few.We're looking at active debris removal, which is one aspect, it's end of life management in terms of in orbit servicing. So we're looking at the CAT ID from ainstitutional perspective, we are promoting sustainable, safe, and responsible use of space. So one of the things that we want to do is also at institutional level, clean up our own, projects at the end of life. But it's, more than just that active debris removal is something that is, across the board for everybody.
In terms of a service, we are also busy with several missions that provide services, and that what one of the things that we wish to do is to enable services, enable the European industry to have the capability of providing those services. So I'm talking about on one side missions, and here I'm citing Astro Scale but we're also looking at, so this is something that is, is a mission that is demonstrating the capability of providing a service of end of life management.
But we're also talking about, further aspects of in orbit servicing such as a AOCS takeover and lifetime extension, and here I mentioned the missions we are preparing now with D Orbit, which is Rise. This, it's not just debris removal, but it's also in orbit servicing, and this is an extension from thefirst step, which was say, let's just clean up and avoid making more debris in space. Towards the next step, which is servicing. So let's try to do AOCS take over here, there's a commercial interest,especially in the LEO as in the geo regions where you have telecommunication satellites. This is a very interesting thing to do to extend the life. I also want to mention that it's not just the services and these operations, but it's also linked to the future, the new paradigm of space transportation. Space transportation is now typically is just a launcher that leaves you in an orbit and it's up to you to get to your final orbit or to do some hyperbolic trajectory to get to the moon or, any other type of trajectory. Now this is a paradigm that's shifting and we're looking there again at transportation logistics. I'm talking about space tagging, I'm talking about, for example, provision. If we're looking, going to look at servicing and upgrading your satellites. The logistics has to be there to bring things up and it's, it's technology that's related to that.
So we have already a reality today, in Europe and ESA is doing the best to enable this through all the programs that we have in space safety and transportation. But also in technology development and we're really trying to move through, I would say, each of the letters, so servicing, so not just debris removal, end of life management, but also really life extension, other services, refurbishments, and then more towards the future into assembly and hopefully a bit farther in the future into manufacturing.
So I could talk on and on, but I think I'll leave it at that.
[00:06:39] Enrico Cavallini: Good morning everyone. I
'm Enrico Cavallini Italian Space Agency. In ISA I am, uh, Head of Access to Space and in orbit servicing. We started, in 2000 by the end of 2020 to develop a roadmap in ISA about, in orbit servicing, recognizingthe importance of the, these new sector. Indeed when restructuring the internal organization has been created, an office that is the one I am in charge of today. Recognizing the fact that, in orbit servicing and access to space,very close path.
But those two are somewhat connected each other, and, today in orbit servicing, in orbit operation, in orbit servicing and assembly and manufacturing, how we want to call them are in the directives, that have been gave to the ISA and to say to the world sector by the Prime Minister was the prerogative for space in Italy.
In order to develop this road mapping in the Italian Space Agency, we have,I would say many pillars that,I hope that will be the chance to describe a little bit more in depth, but just to give you the idea.
We are, well, the first pillar is a national program that is called the In Orbit Servicing Demo Mission, that is going to to be developed. But now it is, traveling from phase B to Phase C actually, and we are developing a fully national demo mission for bring technologies, but especially system activities and operational activities to fly as soon as possible, and this will, will end in something somewhat in 2027, 2028. This is aim at, making a, variety of in orbit servicing activities likeactive debris removal,relocation, refueling, and to larger our access to cover in LEO orbit, and in a larger stand, some demonstration activities for manufacturing and repairing assembling that are, just demo, I would say. Then the second pillar is activities with the ADRIOS transmission.The third pillar is um,is a space rider. I saw many speech around, uh, microgravity activities and manufacturing, on, in orbit and exactly space rider in some way, let's say the connectionblock building block between access to space facilitation and in orbit servicing for kind of service that requires to return to earth and will be the first, let's say the first, spacecraft,European spacecraft able to return to earth from space. It's a brand new capability to be developed with the Italian leadership.
Then we have some, more techno activities related to cubesat. We have one cubesat and we havefour projects, at least a different degree ofin terms of phasing. One is a hyper zone that is on orbit today. That is for inspection. Then we have sroc that is another ESA program with a majority contribution funded by GSTP. And then we have another couple that are in early phases.Plus we are also working, for sure in, on along the other access that in orbit servicing required that are for sure standards regulation, technical regulation, even because we are there is in discussion at the Italian parliament and will be hopefully end the discussionin the following weeks, months. there will be the, for the first time the Italian Space Law, which will regulate the commercial activities by Italian economic operators, including for sure in orbit servicing thatthat requires such kind of brand new, let's say organization process that for the following years.
[00:10:27] Juan Bevan: Thank you Enrico much appreciate that. Over to you, Matt, to finish the round off the agency's perspective and then we'll just complete with the industrial view by Timo from OHB.
[00:10:37] Matt Cook: Thank you very much, Juan. Great to be here, everybody. Hello.
Matthew Cook, from the UK Space Agency. If you don't know what our organization does, then I think you're at the wrong conference.
We are the co-host, of course, alongside the Satellite Applications Catapult for the conference today. I won't bore you with telling you what the agency's for.
But from a an IAM perspective, the UK has a pretty heavy role in, European space as well.
In the ESA world, of course, we havea couple of missions that we're particularly focused on from an ISAM perspective. We've got the ADRIOS Program where we have clear space one.We were just hearing about RISE as well, of course, that the UK's involved in, and we heard about else RM in the Artez, program as well.
But from a sort of wider perspective, not just talking about programs and missions now. But the UK is a signatory to the Zero Debris charter, of course that came out of the Protect Accelerator within the European Space Agency.
There's also a, a proposal with I think the Space Safety Program Board at the moment, to establish an ISAM Accelerator Platform or Acceleration Platform, I should say, at ECSAT in Harwell, European Center for Satellite Applications and Telecommunications. So we're positioning the UK in a really good place for, developing our, our I a capabilities on behalf of Europe. Let alone the world as well. But a little bit about me. Why am I here? Head of European Space Agency Operations at the UK Space Agency. I, in charge of a team that coheres and coordinates everything that the UK does with the European Space Agency. So do forgive me for not being able to get into the weeds, around ISAM specifically. The uk of course, is the Chair at the moment for the European Space Agency Space Safety Program Board. So my team, are in charge of, sector excellence, managing our geo return, deficit, unfortunately at the moment. we had some good news back in March, of course, that we've, got close, to reducing that deficit all the way down to zero. So, good news, and that's solely down to the great work that we get from the sector as well in the uk. So thank you. thank you for that.
I think I'll, I'll leave it there in, in the interest of time, but just,a quick plug for things that my team run. Things like the, ESA one-on-ones and the bid writing workshops. So if you've got, you know, you're, you're new to ESA you've never worked with, ESA we do have a support function within the UK space Agency to help you write your bids. and of course, to give you a bit of a brief, overview on, you know, how on earth,you get a contract from ESA and that sort of thing.
[00:12:49] Juan Bevan: Thank you very much Matt. Much appreciate the input. Timo.
F
[00:12:57] Timo Stuffler: or a couple of words to OHB. I mean, we are one of the three largest system integrators in Europe. We are about 3,500 people, with a yearly turn of up to 2 billion. So it's really a big company, but a big company with a technology heart and with a heart for new trends and new activities. I, by myself, I'm a Director of Business Development, and I'm coordinating also business development activities among our other sister companies and other countries and other European countries, and which just recently opened up also a site in the uk OHB Space uk. Started in Bristol, at the beginning of this year, and there we are also looking forward to, to support the industrial landscape in the uk, in the future.
So, Clear Space has been found in about 2019 in Switzerland. I mean, there's also Clear Space UK that followed up after that. Their goal was to,bring in, the Vesperelement down into to the atmosphere. Unfortunately, Vesper collided with another unknown object. We have to get rid of the debris up there because secondary debris produced by coalitions is really a big danger beside all the other debris, which is already existing there. Then we have in 2024, there have been major changes in the structure of the program itself dealing with ESA is not always an easy task. So because there's a formalism behind and so on, and startups for startups, this is also new and then it's a commercial component come coming into the overall game. So, OHB took over. Thenthe prime role within this year, but we started to, to support clear space in all these other activities, and the goal is now to get,rid of, PROBA-1, which is in a 615 kilometer orbit. So you see at the beginning, So it's about three and a half months, up to the process. First, launching, then the leo phase, then the closing, then the inspection around, then the approach phase, then the grab phase, and then the decent phase, which should be done within smaller than five years. I think that's a, you need all the type of technology sensors and so on. The robotics, the autonomy, the control from ground, over the grabbing process and so on in this mission.
The cost control is really very stringent here, because it should be a new space program. New space means low cost, but it means also then less documentation, less qualification models, and there you see the tension and we will surely talk about it later on. The tension between the formalism. I mean, there's debris. You approach another object in space. You don't want to have a collision and produce more debris, so you must be really sure. And this is in the regulations, although in the clean space office inside ESA and on the other side.
But you have to be efficient. You have to spare costs and you have to show that you do it fastly. Usually if you do it fastly, then you have less, you have a higher risk in your program, you accept it. It's a new space, so things can fail. But here, this is really the tension field we are working in with a Clear Space One mission. I think we found a good solution and a balance, but, it is a, it was a longer learning process, for all participants in thisevent. So there will be also new developments and I think this will also lead to futuredefinitions of ADR missions. So we are really, planning for the mission, by the end of 2028.
[00:16:15] Juan Bevan: Thank you very much, Timo. Much appreciated to all the panelists for that introduction. Just as a way of a signposting of the discussions, what we try to cover as much as we can is a strategic vision, policy and institutional support, some programs and mission development, technology readiness and integration, market and commercialization, international collaboration and competition, and a future outlook and closing.
Don't think we'll have enough time to cover all of those, but we'll give it a go.
So, just to start off on the strategic vision, to all panelists, how does in orbit servicing fit within the long-term strategic priorities of your organization or agency? So who wants to take that one? Matt, please.
[00:17:02] Matt Cook: I can dive in from a UK perspective is it's a pretty easy answer, I think. ISAM in general is mentioned as a key element within the UK's space industrial plan. So it's available on the internet if you haven't been able to read it yet. But it outlines, you know, five key different capabilities that the UK want to be able to focus on.
And, ISAM is one of those key areas. So we see it as a real opportunity for the UK to kinda strive and hopefully lead in.
[00:17:26] Irene Huertas Garcia: So I think from a, from an ESA perspective, in orbit servicing gives us, at least we'd like to think of two ways. One is leading by example, in terms of space safety. We want to have, as I was saying before, responsible user space. So in orbit servicing is an enabler for that to make sure that we have a proper end of life management, that we do not create the debris problem so they can continue using space for many years.On the other side, there's also a commercial aspect, for in orbit servicing, and here this is, we're talking about life extension, which is avery, commercial aspect of it, for the operators of satellites, especially in geo regions. But also, looking towards refurbishing. This is also in orbit servicing.
It allows you to refurbish satellites, like allows them to upgrade to keep them there for longer and provides, either the same service or even improved service, using the same infrastructure and improving it. So there's the two sides. On the one side is the responsible user space safety, and on the other side we're looking at, improvement of the, services in space and even expansion. Which even a third one, which is expansion, to have capabilities that we don't have today.
I'm looking here at things like antennas, very large antennas. We have a restriction looking at launches to create this type of larger structures that we'd like to use in the future and in orbit assembly, as part of IOS is, one of the things that will enable us to do things we can't do today. So there's a bit of three things.
[00:18:50] Enrico Cavallini: I will dive into a little bit more what I said just in the introduction. Yes, it is one of the, directives by the Prime Minister, uh, recognizing the fact that it isimportant, you know, that you have a resilient,user space and sustainable user space, and recognize also the fact that there are elements of dual use, behind the in servicing activities. . So it matches many, many general objectives about exploitation, and responsible exploitation of space, and there is another element that is a fact, at least if we look other space fairing nations, are already doing in orbit servicing activities, US, China, to mention a couple.
And there is another important, let's say, strategic point. There's been, uh, recently also some, guidance document that has been issued by the European Commission around, in orbit servicing and operation.
And so it's, it's recognized as a new dimension of, the use and exploitation space for sure.
[00:19:51] Juan Bevan: Thank you. Timo, any industrial perspective on that?
[00:19:54] Timo Stuffler: Yes, from the industrial side, I mean, you know, industry follows where the programs go to. And I think there will be programs for the future. The European Union jumps into it. There will be the ISIS program, the 3OS and the military side.
There will be infrastructure in space that will grow. It's not just growing by satellites, but also by logistics, by habitats, by tax, and so on and so on. And if this happens and this will happen, then it's a natural move to go into this mega topic ISAM and support it. And this is where we are also following the whole path.
Key element, surely technologies, I mean, there's some new technologies to be developed, but we heard a lot about this there will be ISAU use the resources, on a better way, be efficient on the commercial side, so be cost efficient, prolonge the use of satellites and so on.
I mean, these are all the buzzwords for the future, and it's natural that ISAM becomes a very important program and there will be a big market. There will be market for servicing. There will be a market for replacement and so on and therefore OHB follows this way, like I guess GMV will also follow.
[00:21:03] Juan Bevan: Yes, absolutely. From a GMV perspective, we take signals from government and demand that might exist and respond to it. So yeah, I'm very much aligned in that regard, Having established the baseline strategic vision.
How about we dive in a bit more into the next follow on question, which is, what unique role or advantage can Europe bring to the global IOS market?
[00:21:29] Matt Cook: Yeah, I could take that one. As we were saying, it's that kind of first to market mover advantage, isn't it? I think if we can prove ourselves from an in orbit demonstration point of view perspective, that allows us to then say we are the global leaders in ISAM and I mean that on behalf of whole, the whole of Europe, not just the uk.
But I think one of the areas that's probably, least mature is the regulatory angle of ISAM. You know, what are the rules of getting rid of something that is in space that doesn't belong to you? So it is very easy for us to say, right? We can do our in orbit demonstrations of things that we've put up there. It's our responsibility to clean up after our own mess. Absolutely.
But what happens when there are other space fairing nations that are perhaps less responsible than we are, and we want to clean them up for the benefit of Earth in general. What are the rules of engagement around that is an area that we perhaps need to flesh out a little bit more.
[00:22:22] Irene Huertas Garcia: I have to say I fully agree with what you're saying. I think it's called leading by example, and I think this is something we think it's very important at ESA.To lead by example and to say that we actually have the courage to step into something, that we believe is responsible to hold ourselves accountable, to be responsible and to say, well, it's not just that we just want to be responsible. We are going to take the first step. We are bold in Europe, we're underestimated, but we are bold and we are taking the first step in saying, well, let's remove debris. Let's start with that first step. It will start enabling technologies to do the further services, but this is the first responsible step.
And not only that, but also we are creating regulation and stringent regulation sometimes I have to admit. And we're doing that to hold not others accountable, but ourselves.
[00:23:11] Enrico Cavallini: First let's say,for the Italian perspective, we decided to make national mission since there was the awareness that technologiest building blocks were almost here and there in Italy.
In order to get into this big step, we had to face a real mission and operational activities If you never do it, your technology will remain in a sort of dead value of development. Europe can bring is all, all is added value in terms of, national activities plus,multilateral cooperation. That is the right dimension to see, let's say Europe, let me say.
[00:23:52] Timo Stuffler: Following the question here is, I mean, the world is further advanced than Europe at this stage. The us military programs that what they're doing, the Chinese, what they're doing and what they're acting so far, and I think this is also something what we have to adapt into the standard ESA Programs.
What I think we have to adapt, and this is a higher risk affinity because if we don't take risks, we will lose time, and time is really what counts at that stage. I know that you ESA there's the regulations and I'm also a fan of ESA, but if we really want to get and catch up what's going on in, in the world, in the global market, in the future. I think we have to find ways to overcome this strict, you know, standard process and accept that we can take more risk and that failure might be an option. Because it's the worst thing that happens in, in Europe. I mean, if you have a failure in remission, that's it.
The structure is built in the way that we want to avoid failures, which is very good, huh? Because we want to be successful. But if the rest of the world acts differently, then we have to see if we find an adaption. And I'm saying this especially also with the experience from the Clear Space One mission I just showed at the beginning. I think there we can improve, which does not mean that we run, you know, with 5% success rate into intermission, but maybe, 80% is enough.
When we are successful, we are directly with a one of the first on the market, and that comes even more and more the more the commercial aspects are being brought into the discussion nowadays, when we apply for ESA of programs in some areas, we always have to bring our money with our ourselves.
But bringing the money with you and then having all the regulations on your shoulder makes it difficult. So I think this is, I don't have a solution today here, but I just want to bring a little bit this idea into this discussion around for all space agencies and,for the audience.
[00:25:51] Juan Bevan: Thank you team because that dovetails us very nicely into the policy and institutional support element, mainly directed to ESA, ASI and UKSA, with the lead on question to that.
So, what is the current policy landscape at the agencies for supporting IOS missions and technologies?
[00:26:09] Enrico Cavallini: I was saying during the introduction, we decided to make several access of intervention. First is to taking on our shoulders the risky part by deciding to make the investment, national investment, for making and developing an in orbit servicing demo mission that will be all on on the shoulder of that Italian Space Agency. And so this will help our industry in developing key technologies and so in, in also identifying, which are the gaps, possible gaps, that are still required to be, to be filled. Second access is to listen to industry by the its commercial perspective, and this is something we are doing within the ESA program that industry was asking us and we decided to say, put their, the major Italian investment together in cooperation with all the member states for sure. That is very much important when targeting an ESA program. Then we have, technology roadmap that are specific for in orbit servicing activities, and another final part is since we seen orbit servicing within the STM space based, at least since we have also, let's say SSA from ground, that is another important pattern from the, let's say STM. We are developing some technologies around with the use of cubesat that need to be faster enough and to transfer also to the previous intervention.
We had to manage risk maybe in a different way, to be faster and to avoid that, we have a big leap with respect to the worldwide competitors. Yes, I guess, yes, this is something we, we had to face with different role perspective by agency solutions and industries since finally, when speaking about space, government are taking responsibility for space activities. Finally, this is in the treaties.
So we are different role andluckily in ASI we are struggling every, let's say day. and I guess also ESA colleagues are doing it by measure the risk that we are taking when designing an in orbit servicing mission. One of the main purpose of,at least the national Italian national demo mission is exactly this, and this aim at exactly in having an increase theprofile risk around in orbit servicing.
So we will make several RPOD in, let's say with, a profile or risk that is increased, over the time in order to see and to measure how much our, we have been, brave and also good to design the system.
[00:28:55] Juan Bevan: Thank you. Maybe finishing off the national view, Matt, and then Irene, you can give the ESA perspective.
[00:29:01] Matt Cook: The unfortunate things, the UK is in the middle of a spending review at the moment, so we can't really talk about our kind of future ambitions, but what I can do is point to the space industrial plan, of course, that I mentioned earlier, with ISAM being one of those five key capabilities.
And of course you look at the projects that we're standing up on a national side from a national ADR point of view, and at the last ministerial in, in November, 2022, we invested about 20 million pounds worth into the ADRIOS program across, you know, three different missions. And of course we have, Elsrem as well, from an R test perspective. So I think looking at the evidence, we can suggest that ADR is sort of here to stay, I think.
[00:29:35] Irene Huertas Garcia: So, yes, I couldn't agree more with what my colleagues said, and I think I could almost have, a one to one copy paste of them.
But indeed, I mean, as ESA there's the support to enable missions through the space safety programs to make sure that with the kind support of the delegations, we find the budget for these missions.
Yes, this is something that an institution like ESA can help enable because it's not easy to do it just from the commercial perspective. There is obviously as well trying to understand together with industry, the technology roadmaps that we need to enable such missions and through programs like R test, GSTP, even coming from lower level. So o zip and tds, we start at very to low technology readiness level because sometimes we really have to start from scratch and we really need to give that impulse and to go through those roadmaps and say, let's develop technology step by step to be able to qualify for these missions, with some level of risk.
Perhaps a small compliment to it is the, that we are also trying to put the customer and the service provider into contact. So having the people that, so that the industry that needs these end of life management or wants this in orbit extension, like a OCS takeover, to put them in contact with industry that wants to provide the services. Something that we're also working very hard at ESA to achieve.
[00:30:50] Juan Bevan: Fantastic. Thank you. Maybe moving away from the agency's perspectives and more into programs and mission developments, particularly for OHB.
Clear Space One is often referenced as a major milestone for European IOS What would you say are the main takeaways or challenges you've encountered in the delivery of this program?
[00:31:10] Timo Stuffler: So I think it was an interesting, or is it is an interesting experience. Especially to have in one company on one side, the people working following the ECSS, and then, on the other side of the floor, people following a new space program. So this is a little bit of tension in a company. So, just to make sure that you can handle this. But I think it is also very important to have this capability towards,the type of program. One of the another major takeaway is, I mean, startups, they grow and they hire also experienced people, but the experienced people have to start cooperating, and it's also the type of TRL level and estimation that is not always a similar interpretation between ESA and the startup interpretation. So, these things aretruly lessons learned, and I think it is good to have this combination a little bit, the young and wild, which is today more established already, but the young and wild and on the other side, you know, the old gray white mans that have a lot of experience and but they still have the openness to adopt new things.
And I think this was for us and is still for us, a very interesting experience and we are also growing and both sides do learn on it. And also the third. Aside, the ESA aside also learns on it.
And I think, and I hope that this is also this Clear Space One mission iskind of pathfinder to improve in the future and to become more lean and slim and direct,into, to the developments and to have a not too risky, but, stable time and schedule and cost plans and keep them that. I think that's, these are the major takeaways from Clear Space One from my side.
[00:33:03] Juan Bevan: Fantastic. Thank you.
So in a minute or so, what are your predictions for the European IOS landscape by 2030? If you don't choose to be,a future prediction, then what would be your one key recommendation to ensure that Europe and the UK stays at the forefront of in orbit servicing.
[00:33:21] Irene Huertas Garcia: Okay. So I'll try to look into my crystal ball. It's important for Europe to realize that it's a global market. Let's not be naive. We want to provide services, but there's also aspects of agencies or institutions outside Europe, commercial institutions, that also want to provide this service.
So it's very important for us to stay at the forefront and to keep daring and to keep trying indeed to do things to achieve missions and to be there as one of the first, if not the first if possible. There is a lot of opportunity.We've been focusing a bit on, on debris, remote end of life management, but life extension, AOSC takeover, but also in the future, assembly of large structures, whether it's antennas or to create interplanetary travel, things like this. There is still a lot of opportunity and I think we have to grab it in, with both hands. That's, I think that's a takeaway.
[00:34:12] Timo Stuffler: So, I think there will be existing to tow away waste services and production services already at this time. Because there will be more activities in LEO and around Earth. There will be the first fuel stations, being there for refueling, proving and so on and I hope that when this activities on the global, because global activities with all major plays, US, China and so on, that they're not totally not talking to each other because then we have a similar effect like we have with mobile phones or whatever. You have the different plugs, different, I don't know, whatever.
I think there, there is also a necessity for kind of harmonization, a common understanding, and hopefully also, a common responsibility because I mean, there's only one LEO. If it's things do go on like they are going on at the moment, I would say if you're not careful, it's will be sometimes the end of crewed space activities in LEO because it's much too dangerous to fly an astronaut there.
So this is my hope, and I think there will be a couple of tow away services already and maybe refueling services. Maybe there will be an OHB petrol station or something like this flying there. Let's see!
[00:35:23] Enrico Cavallini: I guess that one of major step that we have to realize is to make in orbit servicing in orbit really. To realize them, to make them possible, to demonstrate that this is possible in a safe way and to acquire the required knowledge.
And this is something that is today maybe missing a little bit in, in terms of, unleash this, circular economy around the orbit. First we need to demonstrate that something is possible, it's technological viable, technically viable with safety requirement, and then to demonstrate that is even financial sustainable overall.
[00:36:02] Juan Bevan: Thank you, Matt, the last word, I guess.
[00:36:05] Matt Cook: I won't give a prediction of 2030. I'll say what I wanna see by 2030. It's a little bit, a little bit different, I guess. So Clear Space One will have finished and been launched and gone successfully. That's what I'd wanna see. But crucially, we've moved from, just in general, I think, not proof of concepts, but into proof of products. The idea of, you know, ISAM as a service starting to become a regular,position, I think in the space sector as Timo said.
But of course 2030 is a big milestone for the zero debris charter as well. So I'd like to see hopefully, most of the jointly defined targets have been reached, most, if not all of those targets.
Then on a recommendation point of view, I think, we need to be really comfortable with failing fast. To move into that proof of product rather than proof of concept phase. We need to be comfortable with things not being a success the first time. And that's, and it's okay.
[00:36:55] Dallas Campbell: A heartfelt thank you once again to our fantastic panelists, as well as everyone who supported the conference by sponsoring, exhibiting, or attending as a delegate. To hear future episodes of In-Orbit, be sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast app and head over to YouTube to watch the video versions of all our discussions.