0:03
Between the chapters, a weekly podcast discussion focusing on a chapter of the book, 25 years of edtech, written by Martin Weller, here's your host, Laura pasquini.
0:15
This episode of the book club is a little bit longer, slower here, then, you know, it's a two parter. One with Judith and Catherine and the second half with Maren and Virginia, we had to record a different time because time zones are hard. And so was getting people together just before and after the holiday break. So I really hope you enjoy this perspective and learn but from different parts of the world and countries. So we get to hear a little bit about Uruguay, Brazil, Latin America, Costa Rica, and then also around Eastern Africa. I'm really excited for this conversation and bringing it to other parts of the global world. So enjoy. Welcome to Chapter 11 2004, open educational resources or lovingly called OER. I'm still Laura. I'm here with Judith Pettit and Catherine Cronin. Thank you so much, both of you for joining me to have a little bit of a chat of everything we are, it sounds like
1:06
Hi, Laura. Delighted to be here. I feel like I am with two lovely friends for a chat today, which I am because that Laura, I've known you for several years online, and I know you have close family connections here in Ireland, even around go away. And the last time I saw Judith was for the OER conference in April 2019. And Judith and I met through the global we are graduate network go gn network, which I expect we'll talk a bit more about. And so yeah, the last time I saw you did with You are in my house here in Galway. So due to this work really in or definitely inspires me. So maybe Judith, you might want to start just talking about your work. And thank you very much
1:49
lower. And thank you, Catherine, for that wonderful introduction. And ideally, my work in Australia, and I'm speaking to you right away from Nairobi, Kenya. my work and my mobile has been very fascinating. And it's quite interesting to discuss something I will have passion to share about. Because all the way from when I started to learn more about a year in 2008, I didn't know it would lead me to where I am today. So it has been excited what a growth and such a development I find a lot of transformation in my heart in what I do, and ideally transforming the society through a year. Now currently, I remember we but this year when I really got involved so much of the migration point the pandemic came which Kenya the Coronavirus, or the learning institutions, the schools, the colleges and universities were shut down. something had to be done because of the pressure on learning happy punches. So I remember with the Ministry of Education, contacting and sending out calls for professors and lecturers who could support in training this high school teachers in the university coalition on information technology and digital proficiency so that we could continue the teaching and learning online. Well, people shifted very quickly to the remote teaching environment. But then the technology and technological know how and the digital proficient was quite an issue then. So I came in with all that I've learned through the years, and all the conference been attending, learning from friends globally on how they do stuff and reading a lot earlier. This gave me that opportunity to share with my my citizen mates on how to go about digital proficiency and information literacy. And even today, we are doing online and ideally to be told we are not going to be the same because the new norm is now going to be both online and face to face. So we are moving straight away to the blended mode of learning. You know, institutions have also been in consultancy, and there is a drive over here on a particular organization called the pedagogue the 21st century education. So I've been involved or been consulted on how to assist people to understand how teaching and learning should be done in the 21st century. In other words, how can we integrate an ICT in teaching and learning both? Raymond is publishing all modes of learning all the way to the higher education institutions. So we have been having series of the trainings, workshops and symposia to open up people's eyes on how things must be done, how learning and teaching needs to be done in the 21st century. You cannot talk about education and learning and you sideline technology, technology or digital world has brought to us a lot of potential or Yeah, a lot of potentials that we can tap into especially in The global south. And to be specific in my country, Kenya, we can tap on this to improve the quality of education, quality of teaching and learning. And this goes a long way in terms of enhancing the economic status of my country. So I'm really passionate. Then I'm also very active member of elearning. Africa. I remember twice, I've done presentation, in 2018, I presented as tuition of the gods yen, on how to recruit more members to join in Kigali, Rwanda. And then I'm going to be just presenting the my findings in the compiler in an E learning Africa conference. So this also are very good platforms of sharing on how all the can be used. And site movements are very good, because realize that now that the pandemic is still there, everything has gone online, and anybody can log in, and at least follow up on how this can be beneficial in terms of improving our teaching and learning to determine.
6:04
Yeah, I was gonna say, so, this is, you've just given a wealth of knowledge. So I'm going to break things a couple things down for our listeners, I'm elearning. Africa is a great global network of working professionals, and you support information and communication technologies, education and training, technology specialists get involved and those that make and create knowledge and learning. So I just want to put that out there great network, I'll link it to this episode. I also think go gn is really been a cool place to see people gather. So maybe Katherine or Judith, either one of you, if you could share a little bit about what the GO-GN network is about. And the other acronym I want our listeners not to get lost on because we love alphabet soup in higher ed and academia. OEP is open educational practices. So anyway, tune in, I don't want you to get lost. So I'm going to stop as every now and then and just give out some definitions. Because I get lost, too. So Catherine, can you share a little bit about the go gn? And how you got involved, because I'm loosely on the periphery lurking on this amazing network. But I'd love to know how people can know more about and get involved as well.
7:13
Sure. So yeah, GO-GN stands for the global open graduate network. And it is a network of individuals who are doing research in the, you know, the general area of open education, and it is truly global. It's, you know, one of one of its values from the very beginning, was about the power of, you know, exchanging and sharing practice globally around open education. So I, you know, I've been working in the area in in higher education, and latterly, in open education for some time, and I started my PhD in 2013. And I was peripherally aware of goji again, but I joined it actively, shortly after I started my PhD. And, you know, in addition to being, you know, as I said, a really powerful network where people share practice, research methodologies, you know, what works, what doesn't work, huge amounts of personal support, as you go through that journey of doing a PhD. It's just also been a source of some amazing friendships. And, you know, each year the GO-GN network usually hosts a workshop funds and hosts a workshop for people in the GO-GN network. And every year I've participated it and observed it, there are just these, as I said, these, you know, very amazing friendships of people who've been perhaps getting to know and supporting one another online, and then get to actually work and help each other in person. So, you know, Judas is certainly one of those people that, you know, our friendship, that's where it originated. So the, I would say, I am, haven't been as directly involved in the network in the past year, but their activities have ramped up considerably with the publication of the research methods handbook. So you know, I don't know if Judith, you want to say a little bit more about that. But the, you know, the, it's growing and expanding. And, you know, whenever I meet anyone who's doing research and open education, I encourage them to become part of the GO-GN network, I was there from the time it was being conceived. And it was the brain behind these will focus on a treadmill that was my PhD supervisor. So I'm a pioneer of the same network and ideally, to, to speak the truth and tell you something about from my heart is that without this network, people like me wouldn't have graduated with a PhD. The support that I got from this specific network called kajian, he's amazing person and they know that the givenness of responses and support that you get is not something that you really compare with any others that have been involved in. So their main aim, the main aim of the network is to raise the profile of open education researchers and supporting the PhD candidate in the field and engaging with his alumni. And more importantly, developing openness as a process of research. This is very cheap, and especially now that we are faced with the challenge of the pandemic. So openness is key. and openness here for me would be like having free access to quality teaching and learning information that can help in transforming the way I like it when a lot, Marcela puts it together. It's not just having it open, but also having it open to allow others to use that and reuse them to transform their local water, local street, their status. So this is very important, very key. Now with the methodology, that we came up with all the GO-GN graduates, and emanate canopies dependencies, came up with the various methods they use to achieve their PhD results. So we brought all this together, and with the support of our own philosopher, he put them all together. And then we have a wonderful book that is guiding people globally, I am sharing it. And now to speak with my colleagues are not going online to share what they have written. But they use the border combustor methodology that we all put together in one single book, to guide them on how to undertake their effective, my my master's students here use it, the patient is to see how to use it. And I guess, in our networks was this all shared openly, others are also benefiting from that symbol. Those are mean the platforms in which we get engaged in the practice.
11:43
I love that a lot of what does network represents is community and coming together. And this started, just probably, as I was finishing up my PhD, but I learned in talking to Judith before I could be a friend of the Gaussian, you can be affiliated in different ways. And I just love that some of it is around like empathy, accountability and trust, the network and openness and defining openness, I was wondering what it really means to both of you, because we are has this term, like UNESCO has this term, right teaching learning research materials, any medium otherwise, in the public domain. But it's not just about like an open license, and no cost and reuse. It's also really about these deeper things of being vulnerable, putting your work out there, having trust in the network and the people. And the idea of sharing, it really is at the center of it for me. But I don't know what openness really means to you, and why you've really both kind of circled around this is kind of one of your strongest values. It sounds like in your work.
12:48
Yes, most definitely. I, I mean, for me, personally, my background is, you know, initially was in engineering and it and then also in women's studies and community work. So So I suppose my work for many years has been a mash up, or maybe I should say, a remix of those two, kind of different strands. And open education embodies both of those, because, you know, obviously, we're talking about, you know, digital education. But we're also talking about critical and feminist pedagogies. And overall a critical approach. And, you know, this is something that I think Martin refers to in the chapter and that is the kind of the lifetime of how we understand who we are and open since 2004 is the year that he picks to write about this in the book. But, you know, initially there was a real focus on, you know, the open license itself, permitting, reuse, and remix, then an understanding perhaps, of the importance of embedding open in policy and strategy so that it doesn't become just, you know, an outer strand of the work of education that it becomes embedded in, in the values of what we do. The importance of support and professional development in order to embrace openness. Initially, the first definition I love of what we are, was really about teachers creating educational materials, and very soon afterwards, you know, it broadened out so it could be you know, anyone including students, I'm creating open, and latterly, I suppose, within the open movement, or we are nYp we're addressing bigger questions and those are things like you know, who creates knowledge, who shares knowledge whose knowledge so, you know, getting back to GO-GN. Well, you can read about the theory of you know, epistemic inequality and alienation that happens when we, when we kind of export you know, narrow you know, what can be called Global North centric conceptions of open but the goji Network actually embodies those things. So we have scholars from, from all parts of the globe, working together, sharing work supporting one another, learning together teaching one another. So living those values is a really important part of them, you know, practicing open scholarship and open education in all the different places that we do that. So, you know, so yes, the global you know, a, we are a network, the GO-GN is a network. But I think for those of us who are a part of it and work within it, we realize that it's much more integral, you know, to our conceptions of openness, the work that we do, and the values that we hold.
15:36
Yes, in addition, for me, openness mean, access to quality information that can be used to solve local problems. Now, I based this understanding from the African perspective of free sharing. Now, in the end, the golden days, when our great grandparents used to share information, and a tree, that's a sharing of information was not quantified. No one was used to pay for it, it was for free. And therefore, each and every participant had to come out with an idea that they will be expected to go and implement. I've read this now to the aspect of the content, the content of the course that we teach, and that we would have that the teaching and learning, I get back to what I casually mentioned, with regards to what do you share or the room and how is it shared? Now, it is still a challenge within our continent, for people to freely share the right content, and let it out there, I normally make noise that I say that we are more of consumers than, you know, producers, we consume too much from outside from others. But we are not willing, we've not reached that particular point. We not want to share our end, we let others freely to use them. So I think the concept of open and openness and the value that surrounds it comes with free access quality ethics. And those two that is going to be transformational. If I use this information, can I move from point A to point C, for me that makes the sharing and the openness more, you know, more valuable and valid in the African context? How can we get back to our great grandparents who are sharing information properly? And no one quantified such kind of information? Now how can I as a professor University share the my content properly, that people can be able to use them, and it will alter them to solve their own situations, wherever they are across the globe. So that for me is the concept of openness.
17:51
I really like Judith, how you frame that idea of commodification and consumer versus producer because I think we forget that our learners, our staff, or faculty, and other people are part of the bigger system in higher ed at least, can be doing more creation than consumption. And it's funny to hear you both talk about your background and ways in because I think about like I'm a history major. And I studied. I studied revolutions should be shocking to knowing that I'm doing so I want to know how the groundswell of people come together in studying the Haitian Revolution, from the colonized French Revolution, and also comparing Cuban women within the Cuban Revolution. How do people get voices and rise up and find their space and both of you just reminded me about that kind of, of why we are grounded in these roles. and openness is because we are looking for people to have a voice to have equity, to have access. I love that you put it that way. Judith and Catherine, I liked it. You said like you're thinking about more of a body of work that people are coming together. I think that's just brilliant. And Judith, please tell me about the go ga model, because I was just looking at that, I'd love that logo there.
19:12
Thank you. The logo is that to copper module to Cambodia is a Swahili word that means together as one, we working as a team pulling together. And you know, sometimes during the PhD writing and development and research processes within the PhD study can be very lonely, can be very annoying, can be very depressing. But then when you fall back to when you are in such kind of a situation, go geonetwork. So to Cooper moja is a motor is ideally, framing what we are framing what the network is meant to be of bringing people together sharing our challenges and our successes together and at the same time, pulling up those who feel that they're weak at a particular point, building up on my methodology where I feel Does it fit in I'm not getting the out the expected and at the same time sharing all of our successes. So it is really that which brings us together Unity is strength, remember. So when we talk about trooper merger is when you work together as one, what are we doing together, we are practicing openness, we are building a network, we are in this web together, we are in this together, no one is left alone, and no one will be left behind. So we all move as a team, we mentor one another students, with our supervisors, they therefore just come to perfect what we have already done as a team, or a group of candidates who are striving towards the same goal and vision. And that is really a strong mission when it comes to PhD study. And this is the way PhDs should be undertaken alone, you may not enjoyed as a team, together, you enjoy the time.
21:00
You don't have to sell my team. That's amazing. I think it's so true. Katherine, you probably felt the same thing as you're going through your academic studies and PhD studies. Absolutely. And I just am just listening to Judith there. And I'm, kind of holding two things in my mind. One is, you know, many of us have said over the course of the last eight months, you know, since you know, the move to remote online learning, um, due to COVID-19, that, you know, a lot of the world is just discovering, you know, online education for the first time. And, you know, for people who have been engaged in this for many, many years, it can be very frustrating. And I think it's the same could be said about open education. You know, many people are just discovering, hey, if I if I actually share this, you know, other people find it, isn't it amazing? So, yes, you could be frustrated by that. It could be annoying. It could be you know, where it wasn't anybody listening, but listening to Judith, I think it's, it shows the other way of looking at it and just say, you know, it's Isn't it wonderful that, you know, many more people are discovering these possibilities are listening, that we are presented with so many new possibilities for dialogue and discussion, and teaching and learning, you know, this is a moment that we can take advantage of. So, you know, of course, there are days where it's frustrating, and you see people reinventing the wheel. But it's kind of Judith energy and attitude about it that I try and hold on to.
22:27
Yeah, I think it's interesting. We are recording this in December of 2020. And we're going to be releasing this early next year, but it's still going to be relevant, because I think how we rethink on our return to whatever I don't say it's normal, because nothing was normal, we need to think about this opportunity to redefine how this pedagogical practice and openness is going to be infused in some of our teaching and learning. And it will only help what we add to online learning. I think it's, um, it's not this or that or binary. And I like that we can live in some of these gray zones. And reading this chapter. I thought about this because 2004 I know that Wiley and others were talking about remix in reusing, but it's not just that it's it is about a culture and a philosophy that undergirds open in general, and how can we let others know what that means to practice openness and how it could add to what we know, and what we're learning now from the pandemic, and that maybe we shift in our teaching and learning practice and how we research and share? What are just some hopes that maybe either one of you have. I know, you're thinking about this. But as we move into 2021, and this is when this episode will come out? What are you thinking about for that time period, as we move forward?
23:51
Let me bring my connection way back in 2008 2004. I was I think I was doing my undergraduate. So I do need to know more about a year. And I think the idea was still relatively new anymore into the exam. From my, my personal experience, when I got to learn to know about a year is when I was moving around and looking all through the internet to see to eat that how can education be taken to the village you were on guns, a place where I healed from where there's really challenges, people require education, and quality education for that matter. So I was thinking that how can the most academically capable girls in a rural setup, achieve an education where there they don't need to come to the I mean, the structures can be so expensive, sorry, about only eight and listen this very well with when I wrote my thesis on the use of technology as a strategy by financial institutions in Kenya. So that alone drove me towards reading more about technology and business. Yeah, so and then I came across the UNESCO definition for what oh, yeah, isn't like ahead, something is happening. So I need to do something. So if I reflect back, and I flashed back and see where I was, and where I am headed to in 2021, I think I'm a transformed person who is also out, ready to transform others, in what ways one, digital education is very, very vital in our midst today to in the African setup, we just need to embrace, integrate, and then share all that we do out there, as well as we also read and receive from others, let us also share our contents. And with the digital world, where we are able to access we are able to reuse, we are willing and at all the time can repurpose, let us also learn from others and share our content, the true contents, I mean, the true content, and we share them genuinely out there for others to alter to solve their problems in this manner, then I believe that the potential of oil will be utilized according then the dream of those who came up with the idea. Like when I was reading our chapter of oil, theory 25. That is the 25 years of ethic. I was like I saw the development, the history on how much well as put them down, I'm like, this is something that if others who have not written their researchers concluded that they can come up with powerful peppers on all year. And I will advocate for this, I'm going to use some people to start with thinking on after 25 years of what is going to happen. So this will really be very beneficial to us, it will be the one going to be a powerful year of use of election technology, because we are never going to be the same again, with the challenges or the of the pandemic, they are so much opportunity that people have built up. We either go blended, especially in Kenya is going to be blended, or and there's nothing like face to face full time, no, we are going to have blended and where there are no blended, fully online teaching, and none. That is very practical for me in the treatment one, and I'm ready for the challenge. And I'm also trying to my colleagues to buy the idea of equal sharing of quality content that they teach and learn for other students.
27:38
Wow. That's powerful, Judith. With respect to 2021, Laura, I suppose whatever each of us may have known about inequalities in education and society globally, whatever we may have known in March, we can certainly say that we know more now, based on based on all that has happened this year. So I just believe that in 2021, in our respective contexts, as educators, although we're dealing with certainly many more challenges, there's an opportunity to apply, you know, this, this body of work, not just an online education, but an open education and an open education, the focus is on access and equity. So, you know, we can make a personal commitment in our own teaching in our in our own work to, you know, to enact those practices to ask questions, perhaps, to ask difficult questions. And, you know, as I was saying, in a webinar at a weak global couple of weeks ago, you know, just to be bold, and to embolden others. I mean, I think that is part of what open is about, because it's not the normal culture, in higher education. So I would ask, you know, just invite people to step out of perhaps their comfort zone. And as I said, you know, be bold, and, you know, you're standing on the shoulders of, you know, many amazing scholars, you know, all over the globe, scholars, educators, practitioners, community activists. So there's much to build on, you know, we don't have to recreate this. But this is the time that such bold action is called for.
29:24
I think you're both right, I think it doesn't do as well to sit down and not say anything, and it doesn't do as well to not empower those around us. And asking questions. I think that's how I want to end it is, Are there questions you want to ask either Martin or the OER committee or anyone listening? What are the questions we should be asking around this topic of openness or how we move forward?
29:50
Well, the first question that I really want to ask and the oil community in general is a now this club. For me, the concept of transforming the conventional wisdom, that content is king. And if given the permission to alter and use, then we are headed the right direction, how can I convince my colleagues in the African continent that we can easily give our content out there. And then they allow we allow anybody anywhere across the globe to order and reuse this content, to transform our life, to transform our situation in transforming our learning content. So this is really crucial that is beating my head. How did OER succeed in this? What can you borrow from other practitioners? Then how can we as a continent, we within the in the global south, also borrow and embrace this? The same way we embrace what we love, like going to church burning the most and going the check? That is my very top? You should I don't want to ask myself.
31:05
I knew I had to bring Martin back on to ask him that. So that's good question. I made note of that. Catherine, what are you thinking about? What question do you want us to think on as a community or for Martin?
31:16
Um,
31:18
I just have one question, when you ask that I just my question that popped into my mind is what what will you do now? You know, we're living we're living in a different mom meant, we understand how the open education, fields and movement has evolved, you know, over the last number of years. But really, you know, in my own research, I found that, you know, enacting openness engaging in open educational practices, you know, as I say, as always complex, personal, contextual and continually negotiated. So it starts with you at the individual. So my question is, you know, for Martin, and I suppose, for everyone is, is what will you do now?
31:59
Well, I'm gonna leave those two great questions and not ask you either one of the questions again, because I really appreciate the time you take and share, and share about your experiences and reflections on OER and openness. Thank you both for joining me today.
32:14
I really enjoyed that. Thank you so much.
32:18
Thank you very much.
32:19
Now for part two of the conversation. I'm joined by Virginia Rodes and Maren Deepwell. Thank you for joining me, ladies for a conversation about OER. Hi, there.
32:27
Thank you.
32:29
Well, for inviting us really glad.
32:33
I am excited. I've got to I've got to have a couple conversations. This is my second. And I chosen to have two because we couldn't fit this all in the first episode. And that's okay, we have a lot to say, oh, er is a big topic. So we're gonna dig into some of common themes and questions. But let's talk a bit about our experiences with open educational resources. I don't know Virginia, and you want to share what we are kind of means in your world and how you work in OER as well. I, my experience is, is starting in two years that I think in 2005, when UNESCO organized the network in conjunction with my University, University of the Republic.
And when I started to coordinate the Ritalin Environment Program at my university in 2008. That is a very huge academic and frightening education of the technologies program and also for the development and open edition teleco systems. We started to, to introduce an open education approach to this ecosystem, integrating euteller environments and open to media platforms and other and it was particularly particularly focuses on improving access to education. And we in that days, we it was too late to the need for the existence of four components for a sustainable model of open education in higher education and was focusing for in these four components. The use of open educational resources, the development of open educational practices, its availability from the use of free software and the application under free and open licenses. This was in 2013. And this was this approach was very prominent in the first studies that were carried out the adoption of open education in the global south. We work very hard to promote it in the country in seeking to influence other institutions and organization. I think that the two are two projects were very influenced influential in my practice. And also with my partners that was the 12 projects. The Latin American open textbook initiative, the Latin project, and spl, Sybil trialkit education in Latin America that was from 2012 and 2015. And both projects allowed us on the one hand to develop an understanding of the integration of open education with accessibility. That led to the creation in 2015, the open and accessible educational resources Interdisciplinary Center in Korea, and we coordinate with Dr. Sheena mounts, as well to establish and deep integration and collaboration ties, promoted open education in Latin America, along with the consolidation of the Latin American community of learning technologies, that he was former Latin America community in Florida. Number six, involves condors, with developers innumerable open and accessible educational processes and initiatives.
36:03
Within the framework of this community work in my doctoral thesis where I belong it also with a GO-GN network, something that's curious to me though, just knowing that this chapter is housed in 2004, it's funny, you said your way, in 2008, kind of spun up more of the OER at the time and then got stronger between 2012 and 2015. I would agree like I actually didn't see a lot of this appear till Yeah, 2010 is when I entered my Ph. D. program. 2004. I admitted before that I was a student in my master's at the time, and as a learner, I never even heard about it. I don't know, Maren, what were you doing? 2004? Did you hear about Oh, er at all?
36:50
In 2004, and I was doing my PhD at the time at a London universities and anthropology. So I studied cemeteries for my PhD and oars did not come up really. And that's kind of a flaw that's interesting that we never even talked about is where does the learner get introduced to Oh, er, and, and maybe it wasn't present early in the early or mid aughts in 2004, but it's amazing to hear that Virginia, you were part of the global gn as well. And Judith has talked about an earlier part of this episode is also connected. Like this is where I think having a network of our graduate students is really critical, because how would it spread into different countries and and around different programs and academic kind of disciplines? Without having it? So? Is that kind of really what helps the global south grow with Virginia?
37:45
Yes, I think I was thinking about it, the chapter, I think this is one of the things it lacks a global vision, I think it's quite rare because Martin worked a lot on the making visible, the, or you're in other in less visible areas in the in the in the ward, I think it's very important to think about the way the way is present in other areas. In my, in my thesis, I work on it because I work with three Latin American countries, three public in big, huge public universities. And, and I realized that that is very different the way that we think about a year and mostly it's because the context is different. And it's not less good. This is one of the things I have to say, I found that that we have to work on some kind of decolonizing program about a year. So we can talk about it later. I think is a year has had quite a post colonial perspective of the university, universality of a year and we have to face the challenge of critical appropriation in diverse context. So I think one of the of the, of the things we have to face as a communities to talk about the problems we have, because if you can see are in 2004 when you ask I asked Maren about their hair experience. We weren't talking about You know, 16 in 2004, in in Latin America, and we also we develop the Open Learning Community of learning object blacklock community that is very, very important in our vibration, but we went to we were working on an object and at the time, I was working with Dr. Shinya Matsu from the learning options approach, especially starting our supply chain recommenders. And licensing issues were still far from our concept, because we were building the first step in the country theory of educational technology. But since that day, we started to develop a strong practice on on on a year, also open source movement, the open source movement, and we managed with the project I mentioned before, we managed to, to develop a very important community and join Air Force in the integration between many partners at and that conducted with, to talk to to dry the bands of oil and open education in duration with a very different perspective. That is, I think, one of the problems, I don't know if this now that the moment to talk about that. But I saw in the in the chat there that Martin had concepts about content in the focus on content on on on the year or year. concept. And I think it's not that that that tension between content and practice is quite important in education. But it has the that this is a continuum continent practices, that it's a continuum between the curriculum, thinking about the curriculum, as content practices process, and didactic, is situated in under an didactic context, and also a national complex and also institutional context. And these are the some of the problems we have face, because those contexts are not the same. And also content is very important as a structural part of the curriculum. It's not quite, it's not, it's not possible to, to use any content, because content is very connected with individuals with the identity of the neural networks that use this context. And also with the curriculum and the institution, and that national context, in the cultural context. So the, this is a conceptual topic that we have to do to discuss more, because it's not confidential is very, very important. It's a structure of, if you think about the latest book, this book is the the way we we spread the the spread curriculum, the curriculum, that is, is quite a political view about the contents we have to do to talk about in our practice in education. But if you think in curriculum as an ideological and political practice, you can see that the textbook is the is the approved curriculum, but there are a lot of things about what we can use, perhaps not all the teachers can can use can can choose any content, because they have to use that as a book that is approved by the by the government, for example. So choosing content is not a kind of choice that all teachers can do, they have to have some agency over the curriculum development. So if we can think about these decisions, the context, their their identity, the teacher professional identity, the kind of things they can do with curriculum, that level were in which they work is different communication is different in, in, in, in primary and secondary levels. And also, when you think about the context is different when you think in a university that is in the north that is quite elitist or is based on the prestige of this university, and the mission that the higher education institution have in the south that is more focused on the development of the country and for example is my universities free open to everybody. We are doing Opening location since 200 years. So I think we have to make some progress on the colonizing and thinking about in a different way about oil, because in many areas of the of the globe, in this global sales, we are doing different things about open education, we have a very different way in which we think about content in which we think about education. Access to the patient, is a political and ideological way in which we have to think about content about access to education.
45:40
So I was just wondering, based on what you've shared, can you tell me a bit about the countries that you studied? Because I was interested? Because Uruguay is one? If you could share a little bit more around the other countries? Because I think you said it, right? The tensions between that continuum, it's fluid between practice content, but it's also related to structures and political. So what were the other two countries you were looking at when you found some of this to be true Venuzuala? in Costa Rica, Costa Rica, when he was the university that this has University in in Costa Rica, and then Universidad central Venezuela, in the public colleges mine in Uruguay? Great, I woke up with with 1212, what's around the theory approach? And I've worked with 12 subjects from that universities, those universities.
46:37
Great. And I know, Mary, you probably thought somebody let you just jump in. So please.
46:42
Yeah, it's been so interesting, listening to Virginia. And also, you know, one of the ways in which I'm involved in oars. I'm part of the organizing team for the OER conference, which is annually in April, and it's now in its 12th. year. And I guess, you know, one of the things that really inspires me about OCR, and what I really reflected on reading this chapter was how much global impact in you know, very different contexts we are has, you know, depending on the context, some countries and some institutions obviously have much more resource, and both in terms of financial resources and capability, but also no skills to put into creating, promoting, adapting, reusing all we are, and charting its impact. Here in the UK, where I'm based and where my work is, we don't have a very consistent or we our policy, despite the fact that we, you know, we're relatively resource rich, we don't really have a national approach at this point. And we haven't had for a number of years, and it's something that we're really trying to champion and to address is to look at particular ways of influencing our government and our policymakers into adopting a more national approach to creating Oh, er, and one of the things we did a few years back is to issue a call for action for policymakers around open education and OER this year, and that's one of the things I'm curious to mention as well. We've been championing the open COVID pledge for education,
48:32
which the association that I run, the Association for learning technology helped launch and as championing. And I feel this is a really good example of the power and the impact of open educational resources, particularly in times of crisis, where we've seen educators all across the globe, share content and make resources available for others to adapt and support learners and staff throughout this difficult period. So that is, I think, one of the very contemporary ways in which we can see the success of our continuing if in an unexpected way.
49:10
Yeah, this, I will put a link to the repository that the alt group has, but like hearing you both talk about it, it's funny there are tensions between the things and this happens in education technology and learning and teaching all the time. The the content, the materials, textbook, what's and where it's happening, and then the practice because oh er is also kind of listening to you both talk about it. It's, it's a mindset shift around how you actually think about pedagogy. What policies are in place, what support or infrastructures are at your campuses, institutions, your countries, your regions, and sometimes that's not decided for you and I, I listen to you both talk it's, it's not this or that or good or bad. It's a I love that you said continuum, Virginia, and it's almost like it's Sometimes stretches people more than they want to like a rubber band. And sometimes the tension is too much. So I wonder about that and thinking about the concepts and ideas from this chapter. Was there anything that stood out? Or that we think we should add in that maybe we should talk a bit more about OER that doesn't get typically brought up because we talk about reuse, accessibility licensing, but like, there are some things in the chapter that are missing, I think, yes,
50:29
I think it was very interesting the historical perspective of the narrative, which connects all year with a what was already before in the lobby the objects and it's with a space hidden in various definitions. Also the underlying critical perspective. Like, likewise, I think it's very interesting the relevance of the creation of licenses at the same time, which were the key aspects that prevailed, though, even in the definition of failure itself, I believe, also the emergence of the social web, with the participation of users as a key point in this generation of content that is very important for a year. I also like the perspective on the adoption and alliances, characterized in all year as a success. What was very interesting, but also at the same time they difficult to become mainstream. What I think it's life is a situated perspective or an a look at the global center, I believe that their narrative is in the chapter located in the Anglo Anglo Saxon Norse. And that is not by chance, since it is the scenario in which success narratives are always located, making other approaches and others access in their other areas of the board invisible. I believe that the chapter will be reached with a more comprehensive perspective or that it mentions these problems with greater emphasis. The other aspect that was the key for me is to include that the critical perspective, the practical content tension, the practice and content tensions. On the one hand, it is significant for me to think about the relevance of content as a structure in factor as opposed saying a structuring factor of the curriculum and the role of the textbook in this scenario, thinking their curriculum not only as content but as practices and processes located in a didactic organization with your political context, in the sense of content, as a structuring patient is not longer marginal and is what could be the key to the difficult for the generalization of a year that is thinking that they are only content that can be transferred and adapted. On the other hand, the question of the professional teaching identity, the relevance, it has the capacity given by the institution as well as the possibility of deploying the agency itself to exercise the functions that the licenses allow, is the this is not mean or and has not been sufficiently studied. In addition, the key role that identity plays in ownership over the creation of the educational resource itself, that is a content as an extension of the identity, which is also an obstacle to adoption processes in in such a consciousness of mixing or reusing, I think, we have placed so much emphasis on the issue of reuse also, that we have lost sight of the processes of greater resources, how they acute in really acute in educational institutions, when they are enable the existing collaboration and sharing process, the human scale of the sharing that is far from global repositories. But what happens if really happening in in schools and universities, I challenged the community to give visibility on focus to work towards this human scale scenarios. On the other hand, to think about the situated protected the key dimension of the natural of institutions and different forms and meanings that the educational institution and in particular, the university has in different countries. Access to the patient does not have the same meaning in the north in it in the south. However, they open liberation movement, and in particular, we are heavily transversal by educational elitism neoliberal reforms, typical of the North especially in the UK in the USA. This is does not allow us to be similar visualize other scenarios where the institutional carbon other social mission and other non LED is conception a different structure.
54:54
Finally, the need to carry out serious work of decolonizing a year Because in addition to what I mentioned, the double bass underline a year, on the one hand, the emergence as superficial solution to the problem of nearly liberal transformation of education. And on the other, and very importantly, the underlying issue that the relevant content is from the north, and that it benefits the countries of the global south. By sharing it is very, very strong focus on sharing content. I think both actions bring as consequence, phenomenon of commodity, commodification and monetization, such as the case of MOOCs, which will address the existence of filtering universities, and they influence us development factor in non central countries. I believe that this debate should take place as soon as possible, as it's a key point that has been accelerated in the framework of COVID-19 pandemic.
55:58
Yeah, you're drawing on things, Virginia that I talked with the panel of women back at the LMS chapter, essentially, you can't not say these changes, and these influences of OCR and other things. So we were talking in this sense, we're talking a little bit around, you mentioned identity, which I think is so wrapped up in open educational practices, and then content with VR is key, we talked about the LMS. And saying that the place where it goes, is really influenced and we can't recognize, like these neoliberal transformations or institutions, we don't do two things, which I thought you really well, is the visibility of this work, and what it takes to actually do that, and then what it means for the professionals who are doing this work. So thank you for sharing that. Man. What do you think about in terms of this chapter? Some ways you'd like to augment it or highlight some things that are the maybe we should call it recognize some success? Well,
56:53
I think my thoughts are quite similar. As Virginia's and one of the things I've been involved in that, in the last couple of years is the #femedtech network. And we've talked a lot about, you know, open educational practices as s o ers, and how, you know, how feminist practices could be ours, and what that what implications that has on sort of an undervalued or invisible labor, and what impact that has, you know, in in a whole number of ways, in which we recognize there are inequalities, whether we're looking at, you know, global Northwest global south, or whether we're looking at, you know, things through a gender lens, or maybe, you know, what, whether we were looking at other types of inequalities, that's one really key point, and I'm not sure what the answers are. There, I think part of it is, you know, part of what I'm interested in is kind of recognizing, and, and trying to articulate and situating your professional practice in a way that acknowledges this, this kind of context, but also gives you a way to kind of move and be productive, you know, in that context. But I think also there is, there is kind of a question around in professional value and value of creating oars professional practice. And that's where kind of the day job I have, you know, running a professional body is really important, because many, many institutions and many frameworks of professional accreditation, don't really recognize sharing your practice openly as a specific, you know, achievement or a specific skill. It's not really specifically valued as part of professional practice itself, like a nice to have maybe an add on. And it's something that we come across again, and again, in the OER conference, as well. And the research and practice that's being shared there is that, you know, we need to educate institutions, and you know, and kind of those people who write these types of frameworks who think about progression and, and career development, in how the importance of OER could be reflected in those types of frameworks and in those kinds of conversations. And I guess, for me, there's also a question of whether you know, how far we've moved on from this chapter in terms of like, you know, the perspective is focused, sort of, you know, it's situated in 2004. And it mentions things that have happened since then. But I wonder whether sometimes we are kind of stuck in the cycle of, there's always people who haven't heard of it, who need to adopt it. There's always people who are ahead of the curve. And I kind of wonder whether the pandemic in 2020 has given us an opportunity to try and finally move to the next step in the kind of adoption and and kind of more Have a more mature, more informed approach to scaling up use of OER globally, taking into account the important issues that Virginia has just mentioned.
1:00:11
Yeah, I really think the end of this chapter touched on like, where things are going like, forget the projects, forget the funding for his work moving towards open textbooks and things. I'd like to see ODP, the open educational practices, and people may not even realize that they are doing these sort of pedagogical practices, and they're teaching, learning or research. I'm not affiliated with any institution of education at all, but I still see myself as an open practitioner because we want to be sharing voices, places, people have a diverse representation. And I think we are calling it out more in our scholarly work, and our teaching and learning. And it's making people have a space and place where they feel like the playing field is level. And that's one thing, I think, oh, our may have built the foundations for but we're not there yet. And it whether it's around where you're geographically located to what you represent on the gender continuum, I think we've not reached entirely because we're still figuring it out. And it's hard to be in this murky mess and recognize that, I'd love that you said, Martin, that I don't have all the answers, we none of us have all the answers. And it's okay to flail in this a bit. And we don't let ourselves do that often. Or at least my experience in academia, you really want to talk rarely want to talk about failure and say, Oh, we messed up, or we don't want to call out these things, because we never have. And so I think it's these questions are really kind of was bubbling to my mind of, I really want to ask the community, I don't know what you all are thinking for questions for Martin or the community is like, Where are you thinking about yourself in the openness way? or How are you thinking about open in the work you do, and it doesn't have to be about a thing you create? But what does open look like for you and your teaching, learning and research practices? Kind of my big question for the community? Is there are there other questions we should ask our community of educators and teachers and researchers out there?
1:02:14
Well,
1:02:15
I think from a personal perspective, and relating that back to my own practice, like on an open practitioner in a leadership position, and I think on a personal level, I think I'm looking to challenge more people in leadership positions to adopt open practices. While you know only some of my work is related to kind of academic practice or research, I think the same principles of open educational practice can be very well applied to leadership and management. And I've been blogging about that as well and finding people it really resonates with them in terms of like accountability, Authenticity, but also coming back to reflecting on you know, one's context and and the different blind spots you might have and how to you know, how to contend with that in an authentic way. So, I think from a personal point of view, that would be one next step for me.
1:03:17
How we can think about urbanization in from this from migration from Latin America. But also I think this was very very very important to be connected with the Gauteng network the global network and also with art see that is here is mine and it's very interesting the way we can those those nice work work in connected voices in putting people together to think about the same the same issue to make everybody at the same level when when talking when when presenting when given conferences when thinking about this this this this global issue that is open to location but in a in a in a way that is very with very respected with a lot of respect about buy up from four people I think those network a gold chain, and I'll leave the scenario to talk with in different voices Where are abroad it was very important for my for my for forgiving my war cap global perspective and thinking and also this kind of theoretical thinking with with people that is working in the same thing that I'm working on. That is not quite easy in my version. Yeah, I
1:04:54
think some of the work that I liked that you bring up the good yen and the alt c i wonder about the outreaching to people who have never heard anything about this and and maybe really just recognize the need for some of this sharing of educational practice.
1:05:10
That's something that I'm thinking about, like, I don't work in university anymore. But I do think about the way that we share our practice and knowledge and how we do things is more than critical. Are there ways that whether it's the go gn, because I know you're an alumni of Virginia, or altes are thinking about, I love that there's this COVID response repository. Are there other ways that you're thinking of ways to invite people in to these areas, which will not only educate, but make them feel like they can be sharing a bit more and be part of this openness? Maren? Yeah.
1:05:46
Yeah, definitely. So alt has an open education special interest group, whose mission is really to spread the word around Oh, we are, which is open to everyone. And everybody is welcome. And they do an amazing number of online events and activities throughout the year. Also, there's a whole lot of activity going on, for us outside of higher education. So one of the things we're involved in is for work based. And vocational education is a new national network to promote, particularly open practice, and particularly resources. And I think there's also great initiatives that, you know, bigger organizations like Mozilla, or Creative Commons are undertaking that we're kind of amplifying and supporting signposting to folk to try and
1:06:45
spread the word.
1:06:47
One thing that I'm very aware of is that in some of the open courses for teachers that have come out this year, there's a new one, just now launching on futurelearn, called designing for open and online and blended learning that has a, you know, specific chapters on kind of, you know, using open resources and how to, like, you know, introducing teachers to that concept. So, I think it is trickling down. If, you know, if slowly,
1:07:19
it happens, change, change happens slowly. So, those are ways that people can connect Virginia that you recommend for the go gn, or that your, you want to mention, for listeners who may have no idea what it is,
1:07:32
the global oil network is a very heavily community, because it's a kind of friendship and protect the members and given ways to talk with different people from different parts of the world. And putting together in volume, they were that they've worked. It's very interesting, I think everybody that is working in, in open education has to pay attention of the end on this network. And when you find somebody that is doing the hair or his PhD thesis on this issue, so it's very important to, to put him or her in contact with the Golgi. And because it's a driver to making a better PhD thesis, but not only this is a way to be connected with the global voices and, and to be it's also a way to make friends in in also a place where you can think in a more comprehensive, comprehensive way in about open litigation. In Latin America, I think it's very important to be connected with this community of learning technologies that we we make our conferences each year is focusing on or it has a very special focus on opening a location in open educational resources, but also in other learning technologies. But I think it's very interested in community to be to be part and to be present not only for Latin American friends, but also in a global way. I think it's very important to to have not only the friends, the participants from the south to the north conference, but also from the North to the South Conference. I think it's it's a thing that we still have to do. to work harder. So given a mix, and, and given relevance to what is happening in aberrations in in relation to conferences. I think it's very important also the mind, I don't know, I don't remember if Marian mentioned it that if they are your conference that is organized, but it it was very important for me for my, my for my comprehension of about the year problem and open education and it was also a scenario where to share my my, my my research and my practice. And I think it's very interesting. And also the the work that is doing the Open Education Board in of the Open Knowledge, international that is coordinated by hubiera DNS, and there is a lot of things going on. And that was that Korea being frayed in this this year, I also participated in the global coalition that is conducted by UNESCO, where we were working on a roadmap to develop the recommendations in the different countries. And it's worth it was a very, very interesting work being done it all in a visual manner, because we didn't have able to, we haven't able to be present in Paris in the in the launch of the of the year coalition. But I think it's there are some steps to introduce in more institutional way, these recommendations and how to, to put these those recommendations in the in the policies of the countries because the minister yourself the of the of the different countries participated in the in the approval of the recommendation that is very, very important.
1:12:26
milestone in our moment. So there is a very hard work to do in in this in this area. At the center were working in interdisciplinary and in in an interdisciplinary way in intersectoral away because we work we put together not only academics, but also the social sector, and also the governmental sector in in terms of keeping the conversation going on. And putting open a location in the
1:13:08
relevant,
1:13:11
relevant position.
1:13:13
I just want to say thank you, both Maren and Virginia for sharing your time to talk about there's so many things about open we could talk about, but I want to be cognizant of your time and say thank you so much for joining this episode of the podcast, really, we can have its own podcast, it sounds like really, but I'm gonna thank you for now and try and get all these amazing ideas, questions, resources for our listeners. So thank you so much for sharing a bit of your time to have a conversation. Thank you, Laura.
1:13:44
I was a pleasure and wonderful to see you Virginia.
1:13:47
Thank you.
1:13:47
Thank you for both Thank you Laura for this initiative and I'm very happy to be part of this and to thank my team for the this initiative to to make that they woke up 25 years of tech
1:14:04
you've been listening to between the chapters with your host Laura pasquini. For more information for to subscribe to between the chapters and 25 years of ITT tech visit 25 years dot open ed.ca