Jeff Moore On The Art Of Building High-Return PT Businesses

Show Notes

In this episode of the Dr. JJ Thomas Podcast, I had the pleasure of chatting with Jeff Moore, CEO of the Institute of Clinical Excellence (ICE), about the transformative power of specialized physical therapy and the importance of leading from the healthcare front. We dive into the evolution of physical therapy practices, emphasizing the need for therapists to find their niche and excel in it. We also discuss the changing landscape of healthcare and how ICE's targeted training model ensures a high return on investment for therapists. This episode is a must-watch for anyone in the physical therapy field looking to make a significant impact and elevate their practice.

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What is The Dr. JJ Thomas Podcast?

Welcome to The Dr. JJ Thomas Podcast! Here I'll be talking all things physical therapy, raw and unplugged, giving you the unfiltered insights you've been searching for in your cash-based physical therapy business. If you're caught in the grind of the traditional model, swamped with paperwork, or feeling like you're not reaching your full potential as a physical therapist, this podcast was created just for you.

Jeff Moore: 00:00

Our curriculum is packaged in a way where small investment, massive return. Small investment, massive return. Like, this is the new way of doing business, and we've got to embrace that, not push away from it. Welcome to the doctor JJ Thomas podcast.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 00:19

Hey, everybody. Welcome to the doctor JJ Thomas podcast. I'm JJ Thomas. I'm honored to be here with my new friend, Jeff Moore. He's, he's a total stud for those of you that don't know him already.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 00:31

He's the, he's the CEO of ICE, which stands for Institute of Clinical Excellence. It's an amazing continuing education company. Again, if you don't know about it, you're you're in for a show. And he also is involved in a lot of other things involving teaching, not only teaching, but actually running a bunch of, physical therapy practices through his company Onward. So we're gonna get into a lot of that today, and, just thanks so much for being here, Jeff.

Jeff Moore: 00:57

Yeah. JJ, thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate the invite. I'm stoked to chat.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 01:01

Yeah. And, actually, I have to I I can't let it go without pointing out he's got one of our boys, the fuel hunt shirts on. Yes. I was unsolicited. I want you to know.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 01:12

So, I'm pumped for that. Everybody that follows me already knows how much I love those boys and what they stand for. So thanks for repping that too, Jeff.

Jeff Moore: 01:19

Oh, heck yeah. We we've been getting more and more into the brand and more and more feel in alignment. So stoked to have it on.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 01:25

Well, it's funny because I think actually, I'll just get right into it. I I do wanna hear about I wanna I wanna hear about your background and things, but I'll I'll say just right off the bat because the shirt prompted me that I think that's one of the reasons I loved your company once I came across it and started learning about it is the things that you stand for are exactly the same values and and, goals that are important in companies like Fuel Hunt and companies like my own that I just wanna I wanna, you know, restore the dignity of hard work. And I think when you work hard, you should be rewarded for it, and that's true whether you're a business owner or a patient or a or a an exercise person or whatever. So, it's just so fitting that you have that shirt on.

Jeff Moore: 02:05

Yeah. Amen to all that, JJ. Like, the the idea of leading from the front is central to what we do. Like, I really think everything else is pretty artificial. Like, if you're not out there doing it and experiencing it, I don't care if you're trying to motivate a patient or motivate a fellow clinician or move policies nationwide.

Jeff Moore: 02:21

If you're not leading the charge in the tip of the spear, I think it falls on deaf ears and it should. And so those those kinda core principles are are are everything.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 02:30

Amen. It's like parenting. Right? Like, if you're doing one thing and then you're telling kids, do what I say, not what I do, that's not gonna work. It's it's the same thing.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 02:38

So tell me yeah. So I on that it kind of that gives me an idea of one of my first questions I had for you was was what prompted you I guess your background in general. I think I saw you went to university Saint Augustine. Yep. Did you?

Dr. JJ Thomas: 02:49

Amazing. That's actually where I am to I'm in Saint Augustine right now Oh, cool. Visiting family. So ironically enough, but, love their program. Amazing program.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 02:57

And then how did you from from school and being out in clinical practice, how and when did you decide to create ICE? And tell me more about it.

Jeff Moore: 03:08

Yeah. I mean, I never really decided to create it in any formal way. I I had been practicing for I went up to Montana and practiced for a few years. I was back in Michigan running a company with my brother. I was just seeing a bunch of patients and and loving it and learning, doing con ed.

Jeff Moore: 03:21

And then I did a few I got invited to the, a few APTA events, like smaller events to give lectures. And I just remember driving home, like, oh, that that was a blast. Like, that was really energizing. Like, just a bunch of clinicians trying to get better. I love the energy.

Jeff Moore: 03:36

And so a few other small clinics asked me to do a few workshops and stuff, and pretty soon, I was like, gosh. I'm doing a fair amount of this. You know? And and, actually went to one course as a TA for another company, and they called me on my way home and said, hey. Will you come back and do a full weekend course?

Jeff Moore: 03:51

And I was like, well, I can't. You know, I I don't have that developed or I don't I don't have a company that does that. And then JJ, I was like, well, why the hell couldn't I? Like, how how hard would that be?

Dr. JJ Thomas: 04:00

I don't have that yet, but that doesn't mean I can't.

Jeff Moore: 04:03

For sure. So I went back and did that, and a bunch of people in the audience said, you gotta come to my clinic and do that. And I was like, you know what? I think we're onto something here. So I started calling some of my best friends that I really looked up to in the field, like Eric Chaconis and Jason London.

Jeff Moore: 04:16

And I said, you guys gotta put some stuff together. I've got some ideas. Like, why why don't we really build a a formal con ad package? And, from there, it was finding one great person after another and leveling them up and and onward we went.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 04:28

That's so cool. Is that where the name awkward come came from also? Pretty much.

Jeff Moore: 04:32

No. So that happened a lot of years later. So, actually, the stories bleed together because when ICE started getting, much, much larger, like, in 2017, 2018, We started in 2012. We had a lot of clinicians reaching out and saying like, literally calling me and saying, like, I've never been more excited about physical therapy, but I can't bring any of this into my clinic. My owner won't buy a squat rack.

Jeff Moore: 04:57

They won't buy a run of kettlebells. They won't I can't be fitness forward because my culture won't support it. And so, JJ, in some ways, it was depressing. It was like, well, I'm glad you're excited, but if you can't do it Right. This is this is all for naught.

Jeff Moore: 05:11

And so at that moment, I was like, well, we gotta start building clinics.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 05:16

Love it.

Jeff Moore: 05:16

We'll just create practices And I used to always end my emails saying onward because I I love the idea. And I used to always end my email saying onward because I I love the idea of, like, always onward, never backward. And so when the clinics came, I was like, we're calling it Onward. And and Zach and Jordan were were great with that, and that's where it came from.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 05:39

That's really cool. I love that. So so so 2017 or so that started?

Jeff Moore: 05:44

Yeah. So Jordan and Zach opened, Onward Charlotte. That was the first one, and they're on year 5 right now. So the idea kinda started, like, in 2017 and then fleshing out all their operations, finding a physical location. I think they actually started seeing patients in either 2018 or 2019.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 06:03

Cool. And then how many clinics do you guys have now?

Jeff Moore: 06:05

So we have 27. And, you know, there are all the major cities. Right? So, like, Atlanta, we have a couple locations. If you gotta go across the map like Nashville, Atlanta, Denver, right, Charlotte, they're they're in all these different cities.

Jeff Moore: 06:18

And we have some of them now have multiple locations, but we're opening them. As you know with business, it takes a few years to flesh out a really smooth process. So Yeah. In the beginning, we were opening 1, like, every quarter, and now we open a new one about every month. We actually have 14 slated to open already this year.

Jeff Moore: 06:35

So, like, the system, the organization of it has gotten much, much more targeted here in the past couple years.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 06:40

That's really cool. I'm happy to hear that. And I love I personally love because as we said in the beginning, for me, it's all about quality with everything. Like like, I don't care if your job is serving coffee or your job is a PT or your job is, you know, doing trash or or an accountant, whatever it is, like, just do it well. And so I love that you tied it in some way to the con ed because I feel like you're you're keeping the quality up.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 07:06

And and I've been a part of your your con ed, so I can so I can attest to that. So I wanna I wanna talk more about the con ed piece of this and how, tell me how your I guess, from being in clinical practice and then watching how, continuing education needs and needs of the patients, especially I like what you said about the, how the culture of many PT clinics has changed over the years. So I think what I've seen in my profession, I'm curious to see if you've seen the same, is that the needs from a continuing education standpoint are changing because I think PTs have to be better. And, it to me, you guys are doing that. And so I'd love to see I'd love to hear from you how your offerings at ICE kind of have reflected that need.

Jeff Moore: 07:52

For sure. Yeah. It's a great it's a great question. So I I I'm a little bit older, so I've done all the things. So as I got out, did did fellowship, you know, did residency, did fellowship, did board certification, did these kind of big clunky programs.

Jeff Moore: 08:04

And I don't mean clunky in a bad way. Yeah. I'm real. I did. I'm a had great experiences.

Jeff Moore: 08:08

That being said, as you mentioned, the landscape has really shifted, and we can get into a whole conversation about some of the new challenges and opportunities. But the bottom line is this. When you engage with our company, it is our responsibility to maximize your ROI directly into your business. Right? And I say business intentionally, not practice because we need to begin thinking about this from a business perspective.

Jeff Moore: 08:30

Right? So when you look at the ICE offerings, they are in very discreet niches. Right? So, like Yes. You know I want to serve pelvic health.

Jeff Moore: 08:39

I wanna serve whether it is pregnant postpartum. I wanna serve males and females, but I wanna serve a fitness forward approach to pelvic health. Okay. Great. We have our pelvic pelvic health certification, level 1, level 2 in life.

Jeff Moore: 08:52

When you're done, you should be able to go right out to the public and say, I am I feel comfortable saying I am as good as it gets in this specific niche. Capitalize on that, over deliver for them, and then, boom, you move on to the next one. Now I wanna serve endurance athletes. Now you take our endurance athlete certification. Go serve all the triathletes in your area.

Jeff Moore: 09:12

So our curriculum is packaged in a way where small investment, massive return. Small investment, massive return. Like, this is the new way of doing business, and we've got to embrace that, not push away from that.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 09:24

Yeah. And it's high quality. Like like, it's funny because our our company at Primals have cash based practice. And our model is the same as yours in the sense that we really wanna capitalize on our time with the patient. So it's all about that.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 09:37

They pay us, you know, they pay us nicely for our 1 on 1 time for them. But we we do everything we can to make it streamlined so that as much as they can do on their own, they do on their own. As much as we can make it easier for them, we do it. You do that with therapists. Like, you're, like, level 1, level 2 is online.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 09:54

It's high quality content, but you can do it on your own. Then you come to then you come to the in person one, which is not only gonna rock your socks off, but you're gonna get a kick ass workout in at the same time, which was my favorite when I was with Paul on the dry needling course. I was like I get I mean, there was a time I'll be I gotta be honest. There was a time where I was, like, not telling my husband about all my workouts. And it and because because I just love it and I need it and and, I don't know.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 10:22

I felt a little self conscious about it. We're going through that now. But, like, I was like, I get to go teach and be a therapist and work out? This is incredible. So, that's another thing I love about you you representing.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 10:34

It's it's really cool. And and the niche thing so the other thing about you just said that I I wanna highlight to the listeners is that I think niche is exactly the way to go too. Like, you have to be a specialist. And not that you also have to be good enough to say I think you also have to be good enough to say this is not my specialty, and you should go see my friend Jeff because he's way better at this than I am. Yep.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 10:55

Like, not just thinking you can take everyone, but, but having that niche makes you in in especially in the cast based world, I think huge. Right?

Jeff Moore: 11:03

Oh, gosh. I mean, you've gotta you've gotta have a a a flag to wave. Right? You've gotta be able to say, I am the best at this, and I'm not gonna pull any punches in saying that. But the cool thing is you bring in people who are looking for that.

Jeff Moore: 11:14

Then as you know, the way that you treat them, they say, look. I'm coming here for everything and so are all my friends. Right? So, like, the way you win business, the riches are in the niches because that's what allows you to get this very clear market share. And then once you overdeliver for them, they come for everything else too.

Jeff Moore: 11:32

So, like, being able to have a few areas where you and your team of therapists are like, I promise you, you come here for this, we're gonna blow your mind. You have a few ways to do that, and you can carve out success in different markets with a level of efficiency you can never do any other way.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 11:46

Absolutely. And and you build that trust with them because even like I said, even when I even when a patient they'll come to me first just because they know I'll send them to somebody that I trust if it's not something I wanna do or can do. So that's cool. That's really cool. What about what would be your advice to, PTs related to if they wanna take on a leadership role or they wanna open their own practice, say?

Dr. JJ Thomas: 12:09

Like, I mean, you kinda just said that. Maybe it's that. Maybe it's that just be the best you can and get a niche, but maybe there's more.

Jeff Moore: 12:18

Yeah. I think it's 2 parts. Like, number 1, like you said, identify who you are energized by serving. Figure that out. And you can't pull any punches there.

Jeff Moore: 12:26

Like, what what can you not wait to go talk about? What can you not wait to go solve a problem in what genre? Like, know who that person is, your avatar, and get better than everybody else at treating them. And that doesn't take very long if you have a targeted training model. Right?

Jeff Moore: 12:41

Like, if someone's able to get you good at that specific issue, problem, person. So figure that out. But I will say number 2, the part that's neglected. I've got a lot of concerns for a lot of our newest therapy thingy, and that is that is if you want to go fast, go alone. If you wanna go far, go together.

Jeff Moore: 13:00

Always been my favorite quote of all time. I I'm a little worried about all of these not worried about, but there's a better way to do business than all of these one person shops. Like, setting up and doing all the heavy lifting of all the components of business solo

Dr. JJ Thomas: 13:15

Yeah.

Jeff Moore: 13:15

It's just exhausting. And the ROI isn't maximized because it's not multiplied. Right? So, like Right. Do think about getting a crew.

Jeff Moore: 13:22

Right? Like, who are your good buddies? Your your 2 to 4 to 6 people who you would love to be around every day. Do it together. Right?

Jeff Moore: 13:30

I would always encourage that. So have your niche and have your crew. Like, that would be my my number my number 1 and 2 kinda recommendation.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 13:37

That's awesome. That's good. I didn't expect that one, but I love it. I think it's I'm I'm completely on board with that. I think I was the person who actually went solo because for me, at first I mean, I've been in practice now 10 years.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 13:47

And but now I'm building, and and that's exactly where this podcast grew out of is, like, I'm building and not just not just employees within my own community, but but potential primal offices and also my network with people like you and other people. It's just it's awesome. It's true. Even if you're growing your business just from inner relationships like this, it's huge. Totally.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 14:08

Yeah. That's so cool. What about the, like so I that brings me to another question about we talked earlier a little bit about the evolution of how the health care has changed over the work over the over the years. How do you think, so in terms of implementation of PT practices, how do you think the evolution of where health care changes have gone? How do you think that changes the way we practice and the way and I guess second to that, like, the way ICE is you already said some of the courses, but the way ICE handles that teaching.

Jeff Moore: 14:38

Yeah. So it's so interesting because a lot of people choose to focus on the negative. Like, if you look at our overmedicalized society, I totally appreciate there are some things that jump out that are concerning. What we don't see though and why I think the ground is more fertile now than ever is that you're kinda seeing our population fracture a little bit. You're seeing folks who are getting drug, unfortunately, into the overmedicalization and, you know, artificial food diet and all the kind of sad diet American things that we see.

Jeff Moore: 15:07

But you're seeing a huge population, because that's happening, rebelling against it and saying, not me. No way. I will do anything. And those people value what we do more than they ever could've 15 years ago because they are very deliberately saying no. That's awesome.

Jeff Moore: 15:28

And and what we need to recognize is if we can identify those people and here's why it's so important we leave from the front. Those people demand that you show proof of commitment. Right? So if you do, they're like, dude, I'll pay whatever. And I there's a ceiling to that, but it's pretty high where they're like, this is what I value.

Jeff Moore: 15:46

I'll put my resources in the things I value. There JJ, there is more of that now than there's ever been, which is why if we play the part and we give a shit the way we say we do, there's never been opportunity like there is today.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 16:00

Mhmm. You're a 100% right. I see it in my practice and more and more. And I and it's true. Like, as I've gained therapists, I tell them I remember when they came in, I'm like, look.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 16:08

If somebody doesn't value what we do, we don't want them because Totally. They're not even gonna have a good result. Like, our whole our whole brand is built on the reputation. And if we have somebody who's half assing it, we don't want them either. Yep.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 16:18

I love that. That's really good advice.

Jeff Moore: 16:21

Yeah. I think Thank you. Younger therapists, like, I hope they feel really optimistic if they are fitness forward and leading from the front in this space because there has been such a positive backlash from the overmedicalization, the over imaging, the oversurgerizing, the over opioid prescribing. Now people see that so clearly. They're deliberately choosing to value things that keep them away from that, and you can be that answer should you choose to be.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 16:46

That's awesome. How that's bringing my that's bringing other questions to my mind more back back to I love this collaboration you have between Onward and ICE. I just love it. I'm curious. That made me think about what a great what a great mentor you are, really, and what a great leader you are for the entire company.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 17:01

So thank you for all. You know, I said early on when I started this podcast this is a little bit of a of a divergence, but I'm gonna do it anyway. PT as I feel like our PT reputation has been at stake over the last 10 to 15 years because I've had random people at parties be like, oh, I had a shoulder problem, but, you know, nothing worked. Nobody could get me better. I went to PT.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 17:23

It didn't help. I had a back problem. And I got so I was like, ah, you gotta come to us. Or now I can say, you gotta go to Onward. But, but, anyway, back to my original question was, so when you open I'm curious.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 17:36

I don't know how you work this, but when you guys help other clinicians open a practice like Onward, do you require they take certifications or or con ed through ICE? Or how does that work?

Jeff Moore: 17:48

Yeah. So the the reason onward works so well is that our training is standardized. Right? So, like, our culture, our training, it all comes from the ICE ecosystem. So the beauty of this is that we can grab it's very clear.

Jeff Moore: 18:02

When somebody goes through 4 courses and 4 of my faculty call me and say, hey, dude. Do you know so and so? This person's operating at a totally different level. It's like, well, that makes it easy. You reach out and say, hey.

Jeff Moore: 18:13

What's up with you? Like, you pretty soon you're chatting, and you're vetting this person over and over and over and over again while they're gaining all the essential skills for success. So by the time those two things meet, you don't wanna say success is guaranteed, but we're definitely hacking the system in a unique way.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 18:30

So hint, hint, clinicians that take an ice course, if you want to potentially open an onward, you better bring your a game to the course and be a total badass, and you better work your ass off in the workout and show those instructors that you're worth a potential clinic because it sounds to me like there's a little bit of of information down the pipeline that may help you. Right?

Jeff Moore: 18:53

What you were saying is not sarcastic. But It's That that is exactly it. Like, if you stand out over and over again yeah. I think people are always asking, like, how do I get successful? How do I get become a part of what you're doing?

Jeff Moore: 19:06

Yada yada. Dude, just outperform everybody around you consistently. We'll see you. We we we know who you are. We're gonna reach out your way.

Jeff Moore: 19:14

So, like, excellent solves everything. Yeah. Just show up.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 19:18

You'll stand out.

Jeff Moore: 19:19

Be in the top 5 in the workout. Have incredible hands. Ask excellent questions. Stay like, it's really obvious who Come prepared.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 19:27

Like Come prepared. Do read the stuff that you guys said to read. You know? Exactly.

Jeff Moore: 19:31

Yeah. Have all your pre course stuff done. Like, when when those people show up, you will I think people underestimate how much excellence stands out, especially when it's repeatable over time. It's not hard to discover it.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 19:45

I can totally so I have been teaching dry needling since 2012, and I still remember the a gamers from actually, so I started yeah. From from 2012. Like, there are plenty I'll reach out. Like, I saw one at a wedding recently, like, like, a year ago, and I was like, oh my god. And, you know, it's like, literally, people, you stand out when you show excellence.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 20:06

So I think that's a huge take home. Is there anything else you wanna share that I left out?

Jeff Moore: 20:13

So I unfortunately, your audience members have probably heard a ton about it, but I wanna hear more about primal. Is it is it, like, is it the one is it the one location in town? Is it and there's a con and arm associated? Like, do you mind giving me a few minutes?

Dr. JJ Thomas: 20:27

I don't mind, but I just feel like this is your time.

Jeff Moore: 20:30

No way. I wanna hear it.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 20:33

So, okay. So, yeah. So I started primal 10 years ago, and it started, as I said, as I was a single really, I I hadn't tended to grow either. It was very much like you a little bit like your evolution is that I really I saw a need. I I was working in the insurance based world, and I was like, I can't I can't do this excellently.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 20:53

Like, it was exactly what you said about your clinicians coming to you is that I was a very well trained therapist. I was really good at what I did, but the the the shackles from that environment were limiting me from being my best, I felt like. Yeah. So I finally hit a point where I was like, I'm done. I'm gonna do this.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 21:10

I'm gonna come up with a based model. I wasn't I wouldn't consider myself, like, the strongest business person. So I was like, I'm gonna keep it super simple. I'm gonna charge cash. I'm gonna I literally sat down on my couch and did a numbers spreadsheet on my Mac and figured out how much I would need to make in a week to be making, like, the same that I made there

Jeff Moore: 21:29

Yep.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 21:29

And how many patients I would need to like, I work just worked backwards. I actually have a podcast that I did on that, like reverse engineering it. Yep. And and it was and when I worked the numbers and I I knew a lot of friends that had cash based practices. So I had a baseline for what I thought I could charge as a cash based PT.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 21:44

So anyway, it was like it was like 20 patients a week, 15, 20. I was like, if I treat 15, 20 patients a week with really low overhead, I can I can what? Wait. What? Why didn't I do this 10 years ago?

Dr. JJ Thomas: 21:55

You know what I mean? So so that was where I started. And then because I demand excellence, I think, my practice grew and grew and grew to a point where I couldn't fit even my favorite patients in. You know? Like, I I was at a point where I just had no more time left.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 22:08

So then I hired, so then I hired a therapist. And now we're 5 therapists. So Heck yeah. Yeah. It's great.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 22:15

And and we are gonna open. So now we're 5 therapists deep. We're a little crowded in the clinic and my lead clinician is gonna open his own office. So we're we're actually probably on the tails of what of what you're doing, unintentionally. But, you

Jeff Moore: 22:31

were doing it 10 10 years ago. I mean, you were pulling the trigger on this before the vast majority of foot. It was not commonplace at that point. It is now.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 22:38

Yeah. But I

Jeff Moore: 22:39

mean, 10 years ago, it wasn't.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 22:40

Yeah. I'm just not unlike you, it sounds like. I'm just not the person that I'm not okay with mediocre. I'm that's goes back to, like, the fuel hunt stuff. Like, I have it makes me mediocre makes me sick.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 22:50

Like, I'm like, this is not right, and our patients deserve better, and I deserve better, and my family deserves better, and screw this. I can't do this. So I was like, let's just figure out another way. And then luckily, you know, luckily with a little hard work, sweat, and tears, and, it worked out. So

Jeff Moore: 23:04

Oh, I love that.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 23:06

Yeah.

Jeff Moore: 23:06

Yeah.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 23:06

Yeah. It's good. And then this podcast is just I just really want more PTs to do better. Like, I feel like bringing rock stars like you on and and guys, by the way, he he very quickly brushed over. Like, I did all I did a bunch of certifications.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 23:20

If you check out his bio, it's like there's more letters behind his name than there are in the alphabet, I'm pretty sure. So, you should I I did not give you a proper intro, but but yeah. So just introducing everyone to rock stars like you and other PTs who are leading from the front and, just trying to demand more and bring back our reputation as PTs.

Jeff Moore: 23:40

Awesome. Well, I I I can't tell you how much kinda like you said earlier, I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. Because like you said, people tend to see high other high quality folks as competition. And I think that's so insane. Because, like, what you're all doing over there is elevating the brand of what we do to the consumer.

Jeff Moore: 23:56

And that's the ultimate right? Like, if we keep doing this, people are gonna be going into town saying I'm comfortable paying a couple $100 for PT because I get so much out of it. If we keep doing this, we're working for each other, which is beautiful.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 24:07

That's right. And when people do it at night, it's it really is like, it's like an, an excellent player getting traded to another excellent team. It's like, it just makes everyone better. And like you said, the reputation, like, I know based on your model, because, you know, with teaching, you you get you know, people from all over the country, but I get people like, oh my god. I have an aunt in California.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 24:28

Do you have anyone there? And sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. But now knowing the way Onward works, I could easily be like, yeah. They should go to Onward. Any on beep beep beep beep.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 24:38

Yeah. There's 5,890 onwards. You could go to any one of them.

Jeff Moore: 24:44

JJ, to make it even easier, one thing we did this I would love to to shout out to to your folks who are listening. So one of my biggest goals now, like, looking at my next few years Yeah. So we if you go to ptonice.com, if you go to the website, you'll see right at the top, there's find a clinician. So, JJ, we've been working this for years. So I think I I don't don't quote me on this, but I think we have nearly 10,000 clinicians who are ICE trained.

Jeff Moore: 25:11

JJ, you can't type a city in on that resource and not find an ICE trained clinician, and it says which certifications they've done. So, like, my biggest thing is getting that into the hands of, like, wild health and mayhem and getting all the fuel hunt. Right? Like, get them a resource where when their bodies need PT, they rule in and they get the kind of PT they're supposed to get. Like, that's the actual game changer we're trying to create.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 25:38

I love that. I will post that on social media for sure because that's that's awesome. That's a great resource for people. Actually, I forgot. I wanted to ask you about Mayhem.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 25:46

Tell me how that relationship works.

Jeff Moore: 25:49

Yeah. That's

Dr. JJ Thomas: 25:49

a great I want to say

Jeff Moore: 25:51

Go ahead.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 25:52

I just kinda was gonna preface, like, I think I think the the the the misconception that that the CrossFit world is a bad thing is starting to get, recovered, I think. You know? And so I'm glad that you I I don't know. I'm just glad to see that you have those kinds of relationships, and I wanted to hear more about that.

Jeff Moore: 26:13

Yeah. So that was really more born out of our fitness athlete division. So, like, Mitch Babcock is a mayhem athlete. Zach Long, like I mentioned, Kim and Pamela, Gagnon work a bit with performance plus with mayhem. We have a lot of other Christina Prevett is in there as well.

Jeff Moore: 26:28

So a bunch of them had connections there, and we're able to kind of facilitate, Jake and I talking. And Jake does their programming and a lot of their kind of consumer facing stuff. And we just, again, kinda like everything we've been talking about. You can recognize it in each other right away. Like, oh, we guide with this.

Jeff Moore: 26:46

Like, you're you're talking about earning it and leaving it all out there. And, like, this is just like, when I will never forget, you know, reading about Rich Froning. I'm sure many people have the same story in learning about end of the storm and the fact that buffalos walk into the storm because they know intuitively it'll be over faster if they walk through it. Like, that is like it's like, dude, that that stuff hits me right in the heartstrings. So, like, when I heard about that, it's like, we just wanna align with some of these companies that are like, damn it.

Jeff Moore: 27:16

We're not gonna go down with the rest of them. Like, we're gonna rise above. And so

Dr. JJ Thomas: 27:20

That's awesome.

Jeff Moore: 27:20

It's the obvious culture fit, a few key relationships, and now we've had a wonderful sort of back and forth over a bunch of years.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 27:26

So cool. Alright. Well, I this has been awesome. I can't wait to talk more with you and, and just do more with ICE. And, for PTs listening and anyone at PTs and patients listening, because I actually do get both, both audiences, check out so the website, ICE's website institute for clinical excellence is

Jeff Moore: 27:47

ptonicedot com. We'll get you there. You could type in the whole thing. That'll get you there too. The other one is Onward Physical Therapy.

Jeff Moore: 27:54

So if you are looking for an Onward, by all means, hit that up. We've got all of our locations that are nice geo map right on there. But, you know, we're still smaller at Onward at, you know, not even 30 clinics yet. On the ice website at finding a clinician, you will literally find 1. I'm dead serious unless you're in a massively rural area.

Jeff Moore: 28:12

You will find one in your area within 10 or 20 miles. No matter what, you'll find one in your state that you can telehealth with. So at least get the messaging that you deserve through that resource.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 28:23

That is amazing. And like you like we were talking about earlier, like, if you have someone that can do telehealth with within the expertise you need, then they can also help direct you because it isn't the good PTs are a big network. So if you are patient listening and you have a PT who's afraid to send you to another PT, then you should run, put your sneakers on, lace them up and run into the wind like the buffalos. Totally. Jeff, thank you so much for coming and joining me.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 28:51

And, like I said, I look forward to more.

Jeff Moore: 28:53

Yeah. I had a blast. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And thanks for everything you're doing.

Jeff Moore: 28:57

Like, I really mean it. A rising tide brings all the boats up. So thank you.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 29:01

Let's go. Thank you. Anytime. Alright. Take care, guys.

Dr. JJ Thomas: 29:04

We'll talk soon. And like I said, check out my buddy, Jeff, and all his cool companies. And we'll see you next time.

Jeff Moore: 29:09

Thanks, everyone.