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Rethink Culture is the podcast that shines the spotlight on the leaders who are rethinking workplace culture. Virtually all of the business leaders who make headlines today do so because of their company performance. Yet, the people and the culture of a company is at least as important as its performance. It's time that we shine the spotlight on the leaders who are rethinking workplace culture and are putting people and culture at the forefront.
[00:00:07.13 - 00:00:10.00] Good morning, good afternoon and good evening.
[00:00:10.00 - 00:00:14.08] My name is Andreas Konstantinou and I'd like to welcome you to the Rethink Culture
[00:00:14.08 - 00:00:18.17] Podcast, the podcast that shines the spotlight on leaders of businesses that
[00:00:18.17 - 00:00:21.03] people love to work for.
[00:00:21.03 - 00:00:27.11] I sometimes like to say I'm an unintentional micromanager turned
[00:00:27.11 - 00:00:28.22] intentional servant leader.
[00:00:28.22 - 00:00:33.00] I'm also the founder of Rethink Culture, which is a company that helps businesses
[00:00:33.00 - 00:00:36.08] turn their culture into a KPI and therefore manage and improve their
[00:00:36.08 - 00:00:37.10] culture.
[00:00:37.18 - 00:00:43.16] But most importantly, today I have the pleasure of welcoming fellow
[00:00:43.16 - 00:00:46.23] workplace culture geek, as I would say.
[00:00:46.23 - 00:00:50.20] Gustavo Razzetti, he's a workplace culture consultant, author and speaker.
[00:00:50.20 - 00:00:53.20] He's the founder and CEO of Fearless Culture.
[00:00:54.03 - 00:00:55.19] I love the word fearless.
[00:00:55.19 - 00:00:59.05] It's a consultancy that helps organizations design better workplace
[00:00:59.05 - 00:01:00.01] culture.
[00:01:00.01 - 00:01:05.01] He's worked for 30 plus years on the topic with a diverse range of organizations from
[00:01:05.01 - 00:01:09.07] Fortune 500 companies to startups and nonprofits.
[00:01:09.11 - 00:01:14.23] He's written a book called Remote Not Distant, which explains how to run a
[00:01:14.23 - 00:01:16.23] remote organization.
[00:01:17.00 - 00:01:20.19] And he's also the creator of Culture Design Canvas and framework used by a
[00:01:20.19 - 00:01:25.05] number of teams to design and improve their organizational culture.
[00:01:25.05 - 00:01:28.13] And he tells me he loves scuba diving.
[00:01:28.20 - 00:01:31.09] And I'm taking my children to scuba diving this summer.
[00:01:31.09 - 00:01:35.08] So we were exchanging stories about scuba diving.
[00:01:35.08 - 00:01:38.12] And he also does kayaking, road cycling, cooking.
[00:01:38.12 - 00:01:39.10] And much more.
[00:01:39.10 - 00:01:43.15] And with that, very welcome to Rethink Culture podcast, Gustavo.
[00:01:43.15 - 00:01:47.15] Hey, Andreas and everyone who's joining, I'm very excited to be in here.
[00:01:47.15 - 00:01:49.02] Thank you for hosting me.
[00:01:49.02 - 00:01:54.05] So tell us a bit more, what is Fearless Culture and what drove you to create
[00:01:54.05 - 00:01:55.14] Fearless Culture, Gustavo?
[00:01:55.14 - 00:02:01.15] I would say that Fearless Culture is more of an accelerator of positive culture
[00:02:01.15 - 00:02:02.19] change.
[00:02:02.19 - 00:02:08.00] And you mentioned the word fearless, and I came to that term many years ago while
[00:02:08.00 - 00:02:13.16] researching on how Navy SEALs basically prepare their team members.
[00:02:13.16 - 00:02:18.04] And one of the things that's important, fearless or fearlessness is not the
[00:02:18.04 - 00:02:19.15] absence of fear.
[00:02:19.15 - 00:02:21.10] It's actually how we
[00:02:21.10 - 00:02:26.08] recognize fear as a powerful emotion and we're able to overcome it.
[00:02:26.08 - 00:02:30.19] And that's basically in the Navy SEALs training they say if you don't take care
[00:02:30.19 - 00:02:35.10] of fear into account you are going to be get killed.
[00:02:35.10 - 00:02:39.21] So fear is an emotion that's telling us that something is about to happen and that
[00:02:39.21 - 00:02:44.19] emotion can help us better prepare, better react and be ready for action and of
[00:02:44.19 - 00:02:48.19] course hopefully not to be killed but to help other people thrive.
[00:02:48.19 - 00:02:49.16] And that's what we do.
[00:02:49.16 - 00:02:54.19] We are a consulting firm, but we also train people, consultants, corporate
[00:02:54.19 - 00:02:59.08] executives across the world with our framework to make sure that not only us,
[00:02:59.08 - 00:03:04.02] but many other people can drive positive culture change.
[00:03:04.03 - 00:03:12.12] And what drove you or what's the path that took you to creating Fearless Culture?
[00:03:12.12 - 00:03:19.21] Like, how, where did you grow up and what were your early influences that kind of
[00:03:19.21 - 00:03:21.11] pointed you in the direction of culture?
[00:03:21.12 - 00:03:25.04] For me, I mean, every time people ask me, why have you done X, Y and Z?
[00:03:25.04 - 00:03:31.02] I always tell that the plan came after the serendipity of different events.
[00:03:31.14 - 00:03:36.14] So two things first, I've been involved in culture in two aspects.
[00:03:36.14 - 00:03:43.19] First, as a former consultant in marketing and innovation, and then as a former CEO,
[00:03:43.19 - 00:03:45.09] I run many companies.
[00:03:45.09 - 00:03:49.01] So I had to deal with culture, whether I like it or not.
[00:03:49.01 - 00:03:55.07] And I realized at some point that many organizations, they are looking for better
[00:03:55.07 - 00:03:57.14] talent, for better ideas, et cetera.
[00:03:57.14 - 00:04:02.17] So they care a lot about the outcome and they forget that the potential is there,
[00:04:02.17 - 00:04:06.15] but what they don't have is the right culture that can amplify that talent,
[00:04:06.15 - 00:04:08.17] those resources, those ideas.
[00:04:08.17 - 00:04:12.06] So that's basically what shifted my career.
[00:04:12.08 - 00:04:15.11] There was one pivotal moment.
[00:04:15.11 - 00:04:18.07] I was selected to be part of a three month.
[00:04:18.07 - 00:04:24.08] program in Stanford about culture change or about change overall, a leadership.
[00:04:24.08 - 00:04:28.08] And I was basically working with people at Google, Bank of America, and so on and so
[00:04:28.08 - 00:04:33.23] forth, helping them drive that culture change and then see, and through all those
[00:04:33.23 - 00:04:37.22] learnings and experiences, say, Hey, I want to turn this into my new practice.
[00:04:37.22 - 00:04:40.11] And that's how I got started.
[00:04:40.22 - 00:04:46.07] The, going back to your other question, what was my childhood influence, if any,
[00:04:46.07 - 00:04:51.15] I remember my grandparent, he was a doctor, he was a successful one.
[00:04:51.15 - 00:04:58.02] And once he was offered to run a huge hospital, but because of the politics and
[00:04:58.02 - 00:05:03.07] everything that he had to sacrifice, had he basically accepted the position, he
[00:05:03.07 - 00:05:04.16] decided to decline it.
[00:05:04.16 - 00:05:07.07] It was a very well-paying position, very powerful.
[00:05:07.07 - 00:05:11.16] So for me, that was an inspiration throughout my career that we need to stick
[00:05:11.16 - 00:05:14.15] to who we are and not take shortcuts.
[00:05:14.15 - 00:05:16.04] And if something must...
[00:05:16.04 - 00:05:20.01] might help us grow but it's not who we are, well you need to decline and say no
[00:05:20.01 - 00:05:22.00] and stick to your path.
[00:05:22.00 - 00:05:25.19] When was there a time that you had to stick to your path in creating culture?
[00:05:26.12 - 00:05:34.01] Well, many times, without getting into confidential things, but for example, I
[00:05:34.01 - 00:05:40.23] worked with clients in the past and I observed CEOs from companies really being
[00:05:40.23 - 00:05:46.03] completely disrespectful to people, part of the team in front of me, and they did
[00:05:46.03 - 00:05:46.21] it for two reasons.
[00:05:46.21 - 00:05:51.21] First, because they didn't respect their team, and second, because they want to
[00:05:51.21 - 00:05:55.22] show in front of me that, hey, I'm the guy in charge, I'm the powerful guy.
[00:05:55.23 - 00:06:00.10] And I was immediately at the risk of losing my job because it wasn't my company
[00:06:00.10 - 00:06:04.18] at that time, whatever stood up and say, Hey, look, you're the boss.
[00:06:04.18 - 00:06:08.07] It's your company, but these people, you don't own them and you need to treat them
[00:06:08.07 - 00:06:09.14] with respect.
[00:06:09.14 - 00:06:13.12] And if they fail, it's your role to prepare them so they can do a great job,
[00:06:13.12 - 00:06:16.04] not to basically make them feel like trash.
[00:06:16.04 - 00:06:16.23] Right.
[00:06:17.05 - 00:06:22.08] And I was never fired for that, but I have a lot of interesting kind of conversation
[00:06:22.08 - 00:06:25.07] with that people then reaching out to my
[00:06:25.07 - 00:06:30.05] boss and basically getting all the pushback, but in the end they took it,
[00:06:30.05 - 00:06:30.13] right?
[00:06:30.13 - 00:06:35.17] So I learned that many times people are afraid of speaking up because of the
[00:06:35.17 - 00:06:39.18] consequences, but the worst consequence is remorse.
[00:06:39.18 - 00:06:43.06] Like considering, hey, I could have done something about this and I didn't.
[00:06:43.06 - 00:06:48.07] So I always try to live my life, not always, but I try most of the time to
[00:06:48.07 - 00:06:50.15] speak up and train other people to do so.
[00:06:50.15 - 00:06:57.16] And in your work, talking about leaders and I would say intentional leaders, do
[00:06:57.16 - 00:07:04.00] you get approached by the CEOs who think they need to, or where they need to change
[00:07:04.00 - 00:07:09.06] our culture or by the people working for the CEOs who are saying there's something
[00:07:09.06 - 00:07:10.12] here we need to fix?
[00:07:10.12 - 00:07:15.16] Some people that reach out simply want to continue improving their culture.
[00:07:15.16 - 00:07:18.00] So there's a, let's say one third.
[00:07:18.00 - 00:07:22.23] And then the other two thirds are people who want to improve their culture.
[00:07:22.23 - 00:07:26.23] Some because they realize it's really bad and some because they think they have a
[00:07:26.23 - 00:07:29.02] lot of room for improvement.
[00:07:29.08 - 00:07:30.13] Who reaches out?
[00:07:30.13 - 00:07:37.18] Sometimes are HR or CEOs, but in the end, we always, I like to talk to the CEO
[00:07:37.18 - 00:07:41.03] before committing to engaging with a client.
[00:07:41.03 - 00:07:45.05] The same way that clients choose who they want to work with, we have the right as
[00:07:45.05 - 00:07:48.00] consultants to choose which clients we want to take.
[00:07:48.00 - 00:07:52.06] So we do a lot of due diligence on our end as well to make sure that we have clients
[00:07:52.06 - 00:07:54.07] that are coachable, if you know what I mean.
[00:07:54.15 - 00:07:56.09] And do you find that?
[00:07:58.13 - 00:08:03.23] I mean, let me reflect personally.
[00:08:03.23 - 00:08:15.07] So if a CEO is not willing to recognize that culture reflects leadership and that
[00:08:15.07 - 00:08:21.10] some of the issues with culture might stem from their own behavior, that is a very
[00:08:21.10 - 00:08:23.08] difficult CEO to work with.
[00:08:23.08 - 00:08:25.23] Do you find like...
[00:08:26.00 - 00:08:32.04] Are you able to change people, like people who are initially reluctant to see their
[00:08:32.04 - 00:08:37.09] own mistakes or do you just see it as black and white?
[00:08:37.09 - 00:08:42.06] So are leaders able to change and see their own blind spots in how they're
[00:08:42.06 - 00:08:47.18] creating unintentionally harmful cultures, do you think?
[00:08:47.18 - 00:08:51.22] I try to avoid seeing the world in black and white to your point, right?
[00:08:51.22 - 00:08:56.04] There's not either you're in one camp or the other and I always tell the people
[00:08:56.04 - 00:09:00.21] that I train to like if all the leaders and all the organizations were perfect
[00:09:00.21 - 00:09:03.18] then they wouldn't need us, right?
[00:09:04.18 - 00:09:09.13] For me the most important thing I try to understand is the positive intent.
[00:09:10.05 - 00:09:13.09] Leaders are not going to change fast and many are going to struggle and many
[00:09:13.09 - 00:09:16.07] they're going to like progress is more like a...
[00:09:16.07 - 00:09:21.16] convoluted shape, it's not a linear thing as we try to think all the time.
[00:09:21.16 - 00:09:27.03] So leaders are usually less perfect than we were taught or books tell us about them
[00:09:27.03 - 00:09:29.23] because leading is a very complicated thing.
[00:09:29.23 - 00:09:35.04] Most leaders suck and that's a reality and that's not going to change anytime soon.
[00:09:35.04 - 00:09:39.06] If we start from that premise, it's easier rather than to see leaders with a
[00:09:39.06 - 00:09:42.19] perfectionist mindset and then when they're not there, this leader doesn't
[00:09:42.19 - 00:09:44.11] know how to lead, right?
[00:09:44.11 - 00:09:45.10] Second,
[00:09:45.10 - 00:09:53.21] Leadership is a very lonely activity and our role is to help leaders not being
[00:09:53.21 - 00:09:54.16] forced to change.
[00:09:54.16 - 00:09:59.10] When we see them as the same way leaders try to fix people that's wrong, we as
[00:09:59.10 - 00:10:02.07] consultants shouldn't try to fix leaders.
[00:10:03.08 - 00:10:06.23] For many reasons, first because people change because they want to so we don't
[00:10:06.23 - 00:10:12.03] change people, we help them spark that, give them tools or stuff for them to
[00:10:12.03 - 00:10:14.05] decide which path they want to take.
[00:10:14.08 - 00:10:18.00] And second, the more many people feel that you're trying to fix them, hey, you don't
[00:10:18.00 - 00:10:19.13] know how to lead, but I'm the expert.
[00:10:19.13 - 00:10:24.08] Never let a, I lead, but many consultants never led a company and they want to tell
[00:10:24.08 - 00:10:26.03] a CEO how to run a business, right?
[00:10:26.03 - 00:10:29.22] And so the guys are gonna shut down and that's not gonna work.
[00:10:29.22 - 00:10:35.02] So for me, the key filter where I draw a line is first, values are these people
[00:10:35.02 - 00:10:37.11] that have some basic ethics.
[00:10:37.11 - 00:10:41.13] They have a, they're good people who at least they try to be and work on that.
[00:10:41.13 - 00:10:44.02] And third, are they open to listening?
[00:10:44.07 - 00:10:45.08] Hmm.
[00:10:45.11 - 00:10:49.18] For example, when I run workshops, I always tell clients when I'm facilitating,
[00:10:49.18 - 00:10:53.05] when I'm in front of your crowd, whether it is with your executive team or others,
[00:10:53.05 - 00:10:55.13] I need to have full autonomy.
[00:10:55.13 - 00:10:58.17] If you're going to try to act as the leader in front, then we're not going to
[00:10:58.17 - 00:10:59.17] work together.
[00:10:59.17 - 00:11:05.02] And that's 90 % of the time I get a yes, you have, I'm going to, and then I take
[00:11:05.02 - 00:11:05.14] the client.
[00:11:05.14 - 00:11:07.11] When people say, no, no, I'm the leader.
[00:11:07.11 - 00:11:12.07] Well, you are leading the business, but let me help you lead how to become more
[00:11:12.07 - 00:11:13.15] aware about your culture.
[00:11:13.15 - 00:11:14.01] Yeah.
[00:11:14.01 - 00:11:21.13] And do you see when you work with an organization to improve its culture, do
[00:11:21.13 - 00:11:25.10] you see that change in the culture and or do you see that change in the leader?
[00:11:25.10 - 00:11:26.19] Like who changes first?
[00:11:27.07 - 00:11:30.12] It's a chicken or egg situation, so I would say both, right?
[00:11:30.12 - 00:11:32.08] Both need to happen at the once.
[00:11:32.08 - 00:11:38.05] First of all, leaders play a very important role in shaping culture, but
[00:11:38.05 - 00:11:40.19] they are not the only factor.
[00:11:40.19 - 00:11:44.18] So putting the blame that if the culture is broken is just because of leader,
[00:11:44.18 - 00:11:48.08] that's basically getting rid of response.
[00:11:48.08 - 00:11:51.21] For example, how does a culture become toxic?
[00:11:51.21 - 00:11:55.14] Not just because one leader is acting toxically.
[00:11:55.14 - 00:12:00.05] But the other guys, especially the direct reports, are not only not doing anything,
[00:12:00.05 - 00:12:03.19] but actually looking to the other side or copying the same behaviors.
[00:12:03.20 - 00:12:08.01] So if, for example, a leader is not acting well and the other leaders are not pushing
[00:12:08.01 - 00:12:14.04] back, they are responsible as much, if not more, than the leader in first place.
[00:12:14.10 - 00:12:16.23] Another thing is the culture needs to push back.
[00:12:16.23 - 00:12:22.05] I remember working with a large bank in which all the C...
[00:12:22.05 - 00:12:27.23] basically leaders of let's say technology, digital marketing and so on and so forth
[00:12:27.23 - 00:12:34.19] operations, human resources were basically trying to improve certain things but
[00:12:34.19 - 00:12:38.23] afraid of basically pushing back to the leader, right?
[00:12:38.23 - 00:12:44.23] And I helped them say, well, why don't you go together not to revolt but if you
[00:12:44.23 - 00:12:49.15] present and build your case together versus one by one, it's gonna be
[00:12:49.15 - 00:12:56.01] much difficult for the CEO to fire all at once versus seeing that there's a united
[00:12:56.01 - 00:12:56.20] front.
[00:12:56.20 - 00:13:02.02] So in that case the culture of that team helped change the leader.
[00:13:02.22 - 00:13:05.20] So it's a two-way street that's how we will seal it.
[00:13:05.20 - 00:13:09.03] It's not one or the other we need to work on both ends.
[00:13:09.03 - 00:13:12.16] Yeah, that must have been a big shock for that leader, but hopefully it was all for
[00:13:12.16 - 00:13:13.19] the better.
[00:13:15.02 - 00:13:17.19] So Gustavo, a quick digression.
[00:13:17.19 - 00:13:22.12] I wanted to focus on you so we can get to know you a little bit better.
[00:13:22.12 - 00:13:28.05] So we talked in the pre-show about two lies and one, two truths and one lie in no
[00:13:28.05 - 00:13:28.20] particular order.
[00:13:28.20 - 00:13:30.07] And I know you've thought about these.
[00:13:30.07 - 00:13:35.06] So what is two truths and one lie in no particular order about Gustavo?
[00:13:35.14 - 00:13:39.05] Yeah, and thank you for giving me a heads up so I could prepare not much, but at
[00:13:39.05 - 00:13:42.23] least to have... A first fact.
[00:13:43.01 - 00:13:47.00] I'm number six out of seven siblings.
[00:13:48.15 - 00:13:54.20] Second, I cooked, I interned at a professional kitchen in a professional
[00:13:54.20 - 00:13:57.18] restaurant with a very renowned chef.
[00:13:57.21 - 00:14:03.20] And third, I got lost in the Patagonia and had to spend one night in the middle of
[00:14:03.20 - 00:14:09.01] nowhere when it was snowing without any food, water, whatever, and survived.
[00:14:09.03 - 00:14:14.08] So, before, in the pre-show you told me you're from Argentina originally.
[00:14:14.15 - 00:14:18.08] So, I would guess that is true.
[00:14:18.13 - 00:14:26.21] And I would also guess that you got lost in Patagonia with like nothing to eat for
[00:14:26.21 - 00:14:27.19] a night.
[00:14:27.19 - 00:14:32.14] I'm sure that was very scary, but it sounds true.
[00:14:32.14 - 00:14:34.20] And I would also guess that
[00:14:34.20 - 00:14:36.00] your second point...
[00:14:36.00 - 00:14:38.12] that I cook in a professional kitchen.
[00:14:38.18 - 00:14:45.06] you also said you like to cook, so I think the first one is the lie.
[00:14:45.21 - 00:14:47.10] Yeah, you're right.
[00:14:47.21 - 00:14:51.16] But people don't get it because one thing is liking to cook and another thing is to
[00:14:51.16 - 00:14:54.01] cook in a professional setting.
[00:14:54.01 - 00:14:58.12] But actually we are seven siblings and I'm number five, not six.
[00:14:58.12 - 00:14:59.14] So it's not...
[00:14:59.14 - 00:15:00.16] So very close.
[00:15:02.05 - 00:15:04.15] All right, what's your favorite dish by the way?
[00:15:06.13 - 00:15:10.22] I have so many that I don't know where to get started but duck à l'orange comes to
[00:15:10.22 - 00:15:13.11] mind that's one of my favorite dishes.
[00:15:13.11 - 00:15:17.03] Have you thought about what's the commonality between culture and cooking?
[00:15:17.03 - 00:15:18.00] I do.
[00:15:18.00 - 00:15:22.19] And I always like to joke with my clients that when they say, well, we don't know
[00:15:22.19 - 00:15:24.23] how we're going to take our culture to the next level.
[00:15:24.23 - 00:15:28.21] So I tell them, give me the ingredients you have, and I'm going to help you out
[00:15:28.21 - 00:15:32.22] the same way that sometimes I get invited to a friend's house and say, well, tell me
[00:15:32.22 - 00:15:36.03] what you have in the kitchen, in the, in the fridge, wherever.
[00:15:36.03 - 00:15:38.09] And I'm going to create some recipe with that.
[00:15:38.09 - 00:15:38.14] No.
[00:15:38.14 - 00:15:43.16] So I think that's important thing about culture, which is a, instead of trying to
[00:15:43.16 - 00:15:45.04] expect and say,
[00:15:45.04 - 00:15:49.20] companies should be X, Y, and Z and impose morals, I'm more into understanding
[00:15:49.20 - 00:15:55.05] each company requires its own recipe and I try to understand where the assets, their
[00:15:55.05 - 00:15:59.20] ingredients and help them cook some interesting dish that's authentic,
[00:15:59.20 - 00:16:04.03] hopefully fulfilling and positive for that particular company.
[00:16:04.03 - 00:16:09.04] Alright and I imagine unlike a fridge which can be really low sometimes, a
[00:16:09.04 - 00:16:13.22] company always has ingredients that you can use to remix into something that's
[00:16:13.22 - 00:16:15.02] tasteful, right?
[00:16:15.02 - 00:16:16.00] Absolutely.
[00:16:16.00 - 00:16:20.04] I haven't found yet an organization that doesn't have anything that you can build
[00:16:20.04 - 00:16:21.04] from.
[00:16:21.04 - 00:16:24.21] And one of the issues that companies get stuck when they try to improve their
[00:16:24.21 - 00:16:28.23] culture, they talk about change, like everything's wrong, we need to change, but
[00:16:28.23 - 00:16:30.19] nothing's completely wrong.
[00:16:30.19 - 00:16:34.18] Our role is to identify what are the things that we want to keep, that we want
[00:16:34.18 - 00:16:36.04] to build off.
[00:16:36.05 - 00:16:39.12] And then also what are the things that we need to get rid of and what are the things
[00:16:39.12 - 00:16:40.08] that we need to improve.
[00:16:40.08 - 00:16:45.13] But not only focusing on the fixing the problem without identifying what's working
[00:16:45.13 - 00:16:46.10] first.
[00:16:46.10 - 00:16:50.20] So I want to start with some specific questions.
[00:16:50.20 - 00:16:55.04] One of them relates to your book, which for those watching us, it's right on your
[00:16:55.04 - 00:16:57.19] background, Remote Not Distant.
[00:16:57.19 - 00:17:02.10] So what, firstly, what led you to start working on remote teams?
[00:17:02.10 - 00:17:08.02] Is your team remote or was there something else that got you to work on remote teams?
[00:17:08.03 - 00:17:13.22] No, remote for me it's another layer, remote or hybrid.
[00:17:14.01 - 00:17:20.01] And basically my book is a roadmap for designing culture through a lens of a
[00:17:20.01 - 00:17:22.23] hybrid reality, which is the new reality.
[00:17:23.02 - 00:17:29.10] And basically what the pandemic and the aftermath of it brought to the equation is
[00:17:29.10 - 00:17:34.12] that we've been talking about autonomy and flexibility as critical pillars of any
[00:17:34.12 - 00:17:36.14] thriving culture.
[00:17:36.14 - 00:17:41.04] And this basically has helped us prove our hypothesis, right?
[00:17:41.04 - 00:17:45.00] When people talk about working remotely, you need to be more intentional about
[00:17:45.00 - 00:17:46.01] culture.
[00:17:46.01 - 00:17:48.03] In the past, you assume lots of things.
[00:17:48.03 - 00:17:52.06] Now you need to design those more intentionally so people can collaborate.
[00:17:52.21 - 00:17:59.11] Second, giving people freedom to decide when, how, and where they want to work
[00:17:59.11 - 00:18:00.00] from.
[00:18:00.00 - 00:18:04.10] So basically the different aspects and showing that you don't need an office to
[00:18:04.10 - 00:18:05.17] build culture.
[00:18:05.17 - 00:18:11.02] It helps, it's just another ingredient of your, let's say, toolkit or ingredients of
[00:18:11.02 - 00:18:13.15] your fridge, if you may.
[00:18:13.15 - 00:18:16.19] However, there are many companies that don't have an office and really
[00:18:16.19 - 00:18:17.13] successful.
[00:18:17.13 - 00:18:21.19] There are companies that have always worked in an office and they have not so
[00:18:21.19 - 00:18:26.13] good cultures and there are companies that mix both scenarios and they can have a
[00:18:26.13 - 00:18:27.04] good office.
[00:18:27.04 - 00:18:29.23] So it's not where and how you do it.
[00:18:29.23 - 00:18:34.21] It's basically the culture you want to build and make sure you can achieve it.
[00:18:34.22 - 00:18:39.22] So what would you say to companies that after COVID insist everyone has to come
[00:18:39.22 - 00:18:41.08] back to the office?
[00:18:42.05 - 00:18:43.11] What's your experience?
[00:18:43.11 - 00:18:45.21] That they are in deep trouble for two reasons.
[00:18:45.21 - 00:18:54.03] First of all, there's a recent study that was released last week that shows that
[00:18:54.03 - 00:18:59.12] most of the companies that are forcing people return to office are companies that
[00:18:59.12 - 00:19:03.06] their stocks are basically bad.
[00:19:03.06 - 00:19:08.12] And it shows that instead of trying to understand why their stock are basically
[00:19:08.12 - 00:19:12.19] not in good shape, they're using these to blame people, right?
[00:19:12.19 - 00:19:16.17] So that's a very interesting kind of stuff.
[00:19:16.17 - 00:19:22.13] And second is when companies are trying to impose something like everything in life,
[00:19:22.13 - 00:19:23.15] it's going to backfire.
[00:19:23.15 - 00:19:27.05] People don't want to be pushed to a certain element.
[00:19:27.18 - 00:19:34.06] When the pandemic hit, organizations had to basically adapt to remote work and
[00:19:34.06 - 00:19:38.19] people were able not only to keep business floating, but actually they took it to the
[00:19:38.19 - 00:19:39.23] next level.
[00:19:39.23 - 00:19:41.00] So why?
[00:19:41.00 - 00:19:45.21] If that was in the middle of a pandemic, without the technology, without training,
[00:19:45.21 - 00:19:50.01] without experience, companies stay afloat and even more than that.
[00:19:50.01 - 00:19:54.04] Why now that they have the chance to give people freedom, they're going to remove
[00:19:54.04 - 00:19:55.01] that freedom.
[00:19:55.01 - 00:19:58.06] So when I was in a crisis, you helped me now that I can choose.
[00:19:58.06 - 00:20:00.19] I don't want to give you that benefit.
[00:20:00.19 - 00:20:02.08] It's ridiculous.
[00:20:02.13 - 00:20:03.23] Yeah, it's a good point.
[00:20:03.23 - 00:20:08.03] My other company is also a remote company, fully remote.
[00:20:08.06 - 00:20:13.07] And I was explaining to when people ask, I was explaining, you know, we develop a set
[00:20:13.07 - 00:20:20.07] of rituals that replace the need for people to be next to each other and
[00:20:20.07 - 00:20:23.11] communicate in the way that they would do when they are in a physically safe
[00:20:23.11 - 00:20:24.04] environment.
[00:20:24.06 - 00:20:33.13] Can you talk to us about some of the rituals remote teams can use that support
[00:20:33.13 - 00:20:35.21] their collaboration as if they were in the same office?
[00:20:36.07 - 00:20:37.09] Yeah, definitely.
[00:20:37.09 - 00:20:42.01] For me, it's going back to the being intentional element.
[00:20:42.01 - 00:20:49.00] So I remember when I worked in an office in larger companies, you might chit chat
[00:20:49.00 - 00:20:52.04] with someone, but that doesn't mean that you had a culture with people.
[00:20:52.04 - 00:20:54.04] You just happened to be there.
[00:20:54.06 - 00:21:01.09] And interruptions, which are an issue, were also much more prevalent in a
[00:21:01.09 - 00:21:02.20] physical space.
[00:21:02.20 - 00:21:04.12] So talking about rituals.
[00:21:04.12 - 00:21:06.07] It all depends what you try to achieve.
[00:21:06.07 - 00:21:11.03] One thing that we use with teams, which is really effective, it's called the washing
[00:21:11.03 - 00:21:12.10] instructions.
[00:21:12.15 - 00:21:16.17] So one of the things that's missing is that if we don't know our colleagues and
[00:21:16.17 - 00:21:21.22] how they work, how can we basically improve those relationships?
[00:21:22.00 - 00:21:25.10] And the washing instruction is the same way that your clothes come with a label
[00:21:25.10 - 00:21:29.04] that tells, Hey, don't iron it, don't bleach, whatever.
[00:21:29.04 - 00:21:30.00] So you take care.
[00:21:30.00 - 00:21:33.10] We need to understand how people want to be taken care of.
[00:21:33.10 - 00:21:38.00] Some people are early risers, some people like to work later at night, some people
[00:21:38.00 - 00:21:42.05] have family responsibilities that they need to take care of, some people like
[00:21:42.05 - 00:21:47.00] impromptu meetings to brainstorm, some people like more structure cadence, some
[00:21:47.00 - 00:21:51.12] people like to work asynchronously and maybe use Slack or email, while other
[00:21:51.12 - 00:21:52.17] people have in person meetings.
[00:21:52.17 - 00:21:54.11] So there are a lot of preferences.
[00:21:54.11 - 00:21:57.23] Some people like to make decisions on their own, others like to bring everyone
[00:21:57.23 - 00:21:59.03] together to get their thoughts.
[00:21:59.03 - 00:22:01.06] So there are many ways of working.
[00:22:01.11 - 00:22:04.21] So by doing that, each team member shares their preferences.
[00:22:04.21 - 00:22:07.02] So why are they washing instructions?
[00:22:07.02 - 00:22:10.04] That's the first part to get to know each other.
[00:22:10.04 - 00:22:15.12] However, teams need to find some common ground because if you work in one way, I
[00:22:15.12 - 00:22:19.11] want to work in another way, we're not going to basically be successful.
[00:22:19.15 - 00:22:24.12] So then we codify the team washing instructions, which is finding common
[00:22:24.12 - 00:22:28.12] ground between our personal preferences and what's good for the team.
[00:22:28.12 - 00:22:30.12] That's a powerful ritual.
[00:22:30.12 - 00:22:32.07] It helps understand each other.
[00:22:32.07 - 00:22:36.12] It helps bring people together, but then it improves collaboration because we
[00:22:36.12 - 00:22:40.04] understand like, what's the meeting that we're going to locate for collaboration
[00:22:40.04 - 00:22:40.12] time?
[00:22:40.12 - 00:22:43.16] What are the best channels that we're going to use for one or another thing?
[00:22:43.16 - 00:22:47.16] How are we going to make decisions as a team and so on and so forth.
[00:22:48.00 - 00:22:53.19] When you go into a company or into a client, what's usually one thing that you
[00:22:53.19 - 00:22:56.16] say, yeah, I've seen that before, I know how to fix that?
[00:22:56.16 - 00:23:00.21] What's one of the low hanging fruit for improving culture?
[00:23:00.21 - 00:23:05.17] I think that I try not to express it in that way, if you know what I mean, like
[00:23:05.17 - 00:23:11.23] we have a tendency of connect what we see to our personal experience.
[00:23:11.23 - 00:23:15.23] And sometimes we might be rushing, you know, you mentioned earlier in our
[00:23:15.23 - 00:23:20.14] previous informal conversation that you do an assessment, you have a tool to assess
[00:23:20.14 - 00:23:21.10] cultures.
[00:23:21.10 - 00:23:25.12] And the worst thing that we can do is assess the culture and say, this is the
[00:23:25.12 - 00:23:27.08] culture before we actually get into that.
[00:23:27.08 - 00:23:27.13] No.
[00:23:27.13 - 00:23:28.06] So.
[00:23:29.12 - 00:23:33.11] So I'm going to reframe a little bit the answer in the sense of where the things
[00:23:33.11 - 00:23:35.08] that we observe a lot.
[00:23:35.08 - 00:23:40.14] First, people have a perfectionist mindset when it comes to culture.
[00:23:40.14 - 00:23:42.22] And that basically creates a lot of issues.
[00:23:42.22 - 00:23:46.15] Perfectionism in the sense that they think that there are some companies have perfect
[00:23:46.15 - 00:23:48.20] cultures and they have not.
[00:23:48.20 - 00:23:51.16] And I can tell you have seen no perfect culture.
[00:23:51.16 - 00:23:52.22] Culture is human.
[00:23:52.22 - 00:23:54.06] It's always evolving.
[00:23:54.06 - 00:23:57.17] You make progress here, you screw up there, so it's a...
[00:23:57.17 - 00:24:00.03] It's a living animal.
[00:24:00.03 - 00:24:04.17] So, that perfectionism first makes people feel really ashamed about their own company
[00:24:04.17 - 00:24:07.08] because they know they're, it's like a family.
[00:24:07.08 - 00:24:12.03] You know that that uncle that doesn't behave well in breathing, you have this.
[00:24:12.03 - 00:24:16.21] So for me, the quick win is to acknowledge, Hey guys, you're not perfect.
[00:24:16.21 - 00:24:17.14] Cool down.
[00:24:17.14 - 00:24:18.14] That's okay.
[00:24:18.14 - 00:24:21.05] And then let's start, as I mentioned earlier, what's working.
[00:24:21.05 - 00:24:22.17] What are the good things that you have?
[00:24:22.17 - 00:24:23.10] What are the best?
[00:24:23.10 - 00:24:27.00] So trying to deep dive and make them acknowledge
[00:24:27.00 - 00:24:29.00] the things that they do that really work.
[00:24:29.00 - 00:24:33.00] Maybe not at the company level, maybe to a point there's a team that runs meetings
[00:24:33.00 - 00:24:35.17] really effectively and we can learn from them.
[00:24:35.17 - 00:24:40.01] Maybe there's another team that has a ritual that's really powerful to create
[00:24:40.01 - 00:24:42.23] emotional connection and build psychological safety.
[00:24:42.23 - 00:24:47.14] Well, maybe we can escalate it and maybe scale it across the organization, for
[00:24:47.14 - 00:24:48.10] example.
[00:24:48.11 - 00:24:54.00] So you look for what works and you multiply that within the company.
[00:24:54.00 - 00:24:56.15] That's a quick win, exactly. So things that
[00:24:56.15 - 00:25:01.12] the company have already shown that it's working for that company, well, what if we
[00:25:01.12 - 00:25:04.03] can scale that practice across the board?
[00:25:04.03 - 00:25:06.04] That could be another one way.
[00:25:06.07 - 00:25:07.14] How about meetings?
[00:25:07.14 - 00:25:09.02] How do you help companies have
[00:25:12.11 - 00:25:15.03] is what we do at least half of the time if you're a
[00:25:15.03 - 00:25:16.01] manager in a company?
[00:25:16.01 - 00:25:18.03] Yeah, the meetings, there are two things.
[00:25:18.03 - 00:25:21.06] First, we try to understand what's their meeting culture.
[00:25:21.06 - 00:25:26.14] So every organization has a culture and a meeting culture and one shapes the other,
[00:25:26.14 - 00:25:27.21] if you know what I mean.
[00:25:27.21 - 00:25:33.06] So their organizations, that meetings are for example, driven by power, right?
[00:25:33.06 - 00:25:37.10] It's not about the meeting itself, but it's about someone that has to show power
[00:25:37.10 - 00:25:40.08] and the meeting revolves around that leader.
[00:25:40.08 - 00:25:45.02] The meeting doesn't start until that person arrives, or if it started, it
[00:25:45.02 - 00:25:47.15] restarts when that person shows up.
[00:25:47.15 - 00:25:51.05] It's designed to please a particular stakeholder.
[00:25:51.05 - 00:25:55.05] The people want to be involved because if they're not invited, they feel that
[00:25:55.05 - 00:25:58.13] they're not powerful or not important within the organization.
[00:25:58.13 - 00:26:03.11] For example, then there are other companies that have more tribal informal
[00:26:03.11 - 00:26:07.08] types of meetings, like a...
[00:26:07.08 - 00:26:13.08] IKEA, for example, has something that they have very long meetings, not structured.
[00:26:13.20 - 00:26:18.08] They spend a lot of time talking about each other, about personal things before
[00:26:18.08 - 00:26:19.21] they get into work.
[00:26:19.21 - 00:26:24.18] And interestingly, IKEA has long staircases in most of their offices to
[00:26:24.18 - 00:26:28.13] promote that encounters that are more informal.
[00:26:28.17 - 00:26:32.13] Then you have other companies that are more structured, very disciplined, like
[00:26:32.13 - 00:26:36.04] Netflix, that meetings start and end on time.
[00:26:36.04 - 00:26:38.22] They only invite the people that need to be there.
[00:26:38.22 - 00:26:42.20] They use meeting to discuss but no decisions are made within the meeting.
[00:26:42.20 - 00:26:45.16] So they have a very structured, they always have an agenda.
[00:26:45.16 - 00:26:48.03] Well, so that's the first thing that we're trying to understand.
[00:26:48.03 - 00:26:52.03] What's the meeting culture and within that meeting culture, what are the areas that
[00:26:52.03 - 00:26:52.22] we can improve.
[00:26:54.15 - 00:26:57.05] And how do you make meetings more inclusive?
[00:26:57.22 - 00:27:06.04] What would a meeting look like that gives everyone, makes them feel heard and
[00:27:06.04 - 00:27:10.02] understood, that they feel they're part of the decision, that they walk out with a
[00:27:10.02 - 00:27:13.05] smile, feeling that it was a good outcome?
[00:27:13.07 - 00:27:18.09] I think in order to increase participation first invite the right people, right?
[00:27:18.09 - 00:27:23.01] If you invite 20 people to a meeting, even if you try to facilitate it as wonderful
[00:27:23.01 - 00:27:29.01] as you can, there's only so much time that people can have to spend on that meeting.
[00:27:29.16 - 00:27:34.12] Another thing that's important is have only the people that want to be there.
[00:27:34.12 - 00:27:39.07] So we apply the, and explain this in my book, the rule of two clicks.
[00:27:39.07 - 00:27:42.12] So if you're in a meeting that you're invited and
[00:27:42.12 - 00:27:47.16] you don't think the meetings are adding value to you or you're not adding value to
[00:27:47.16 - 00:27:51.21] the meeting, you can choose to basically go somewhere else.
[00:27:51.21 - 00:27:56.13] And you click twice, first to leave the meeting and second to confirm that you
[00:27:56.13 - 00:27:57.12] want to leave the meeting.
[00:27:57.12 - 00:27:58.19] So you go somewhere else.
[00:27:58.19 - 00:28:04.19] So by doing that, giving people the choice to opt out, then the people who are in the
[00:28:04.19 - 00:28:06.03] meeting really want to be there.
[00:28:06.03 - 00:28:10.06] So they're not a distraction that helps increase participation and then
[00:28:10.06 - 00:28:11.11] facilitation.
[00:28:11.11 - 00:28:16.00] You don't need to hire a professional facilitator, but companies need to train
[00:28:16.00 - 00:28:19.16] people how to facilitate those conversations, right?
[00:28:19.16 - 00:28:21.02] That are very important.
[00:28:22.03 - 00:28:25.00] Moving to another topic, feedback.
[00:28:25.08 - 00:28:29.11] I know you have a specific framework for giving feedback.
[00:28:29.13 - 00:28:33.13] What are the two or three things that are really important to know when giving
[00:28:33.13 - 00:28:33.23] feedback?
[00:28:35.00 - 00:28:38.17] The most important thing is a good thing about something I wrote this weekend,
[00:28:38.17 - 00:28:45.00] which is unsolicited feedback doesn't work and people keep trying it over and over
[00:28:45.00 - 00:28:48.19] and research shows that people don't want to receive unsolicited feedback.
[00:28:48.19 - 00:28:52.16] Not only they're not going to act on it, but actually it's going to backfire.
[00:28:52.16 - 00:28:53.21] They're going to get pissed off.
[00:28:53.21 - 00:28:55.00] They're going to shut down.
[00:28:55.00 - 00:28:56.22] So that's not going to work.
[00:28:57.00 - 00:29:02.01] One of the most important shifts in terms of feedback is creating a culture in which
[00:29:02.01 - 00:29:04.13] people request,
[00:29:04.13 - 00:29:07.13] proactively requests feedback.
[00:29:07.14 - 00:29:12.23] For example, Patagonia, they train managers to start requesting feedback from
[00:29:12.23 - 00:29:17.13] other team members and not just, hey, give me feedback, but being very intentional
[00:29:17.13 - 00:29:19.21] when and how to ask feedback.
[00:29:19.21 - 00:29:22.16] When they do that, three things happens.
[00:29:22.16 - 00:29:27.01] First, people see, hey, my leader cares about improving and learning because
[00:29:27.01 - 00:29:28.20] they're requesting feedback.
[00:29:28.21 - 00:29:30.03] Second,
[00:29:30.06 - 00:29:34.16] leaders are sending the right signal saying, hey, feedback matters in this
[00:29:34.16 - 00:29:34.23] company.
[00:29:34.23 - 00:29:37.01] That's why we are asking for it.
[00:29:37.01 - 00:29:41.21] And third, the people start following through and say, hey, look, my leader is
[00:29:41.21 - 00:29:42.18] asking for feedback.
[00:29:42.18 - 00:29:43.16] They're taking it.
[00:29:43.16 - 00:29:45.05] Well, I'm going to do exactly the same.
[00:29:45.05 - 00:29:48.18] So it cascades and create a culture of feedback.
[00:29:48.18 - 00:29:54.01] And the third tip is to focus feedback more on the system.
[00:29:54.01 - 00:29:59.21] So we train teams to tackle feedback collectively rather than
[00:29:59.21 - 00:30:04.21] Andreas giving feedback to Gustavo and Gustavo to Andreas and so on and so forth
[00:30:04.21 - 00:30:07.06] is how can we improve as a team?
[00:30:07.06 - 00:30:12.11] So focusing on the norms and rules, the system, the more collective practices that
[00:30:12.11 - 00:30:16.23] are going to help us improve together versus focusing on individual performance.
[00:30:16.23 - 00:30:24.03] When you improve the culture, individual performance improves all at the same time.
[00:30:24.03 - 00:30:24.18] You know what I mean?
[00:30:25.00 - 00:30:33.16] Where do you stand on treating top performers differently or focusing on
[00:30:34.00 - 00:30:37.22] people who are the best in the organization versus focusing on everyone
[00:30:37.22 - 00:30:39.08] and helping them be a little better?
[00:30:39.21 - 00:30:44.19] I think that we need to work on a high performing culture, not in high performing
[00:30:44.19 - 00:30:45.19] people.
[00:30:46.06 - 00:30:48.13] And when we do that, two things happen.
[00:30:48.13 - 00:30:53.22] First, high performers, we have people that are exceptional in different areas,
[00:30:53.22 - 00:30:56.00] in sport, in profession, whatever.
[00:30:56.00 - 00:30:57.11] And we want those.
[00:30:57.11 - 00:31:02.05] However, many times those comes at a very expensive price for the organization.
[00:31:02.05 - 00:31:06.16] So the price could be, they come with toxic behaviors and people look to
[00:31:06.16 - 00:31:10.19] the other side because that person brings a lot of clients, they sale a lot so
[00:31:10.19 - 00:31:15.10] well but they're maybe taking shortcuts maybe they are, I don't know, bribing people
[00:31:15.10 - 00:31:19.23] because we've seen this or whatever or they are being egotistical or selfish or
[00:31:19.23 - 00:31:24.14] creating things or they're assholes in nature and they're harming the culture so
[00:31:24.14 - 00:31:26.15] what's the price you're willing to pay?
[00:31:26.15 - 00:31:31.17] Second I've seen many people so-called high-performers that are busy collecting
[00:31:31.17 - 00:31:35.17] the credit for the work of many people that happen to do it
[00:31:35.17 - 00:31:39.15] but they're the ones who present, they're the ones who stay in front of the crowd,
[00:31:39.15 - 00:31:42.11] but they're not the only ones who did the work.
[00:31:42.11 - 00:31:47.05] And third, it's safer and more effective, more than safer, more effective to have a
[00:31:47.05 - 00:31:52.08] high performing team culture because you want everyone to raise up versus having
[00:31:52.08 - 00:31:54.13] one people that are giving their best here.
[00:31:54.13 - 00:31:56.18] And then the rest of the team is not there.
[00:31:56.18 - 00:31:59.20] And the more you create a gap between these guys and the other,
[00:31:59.20 - 00:32:02.06] these guys are going to under deliver.
[00:32:02.14 - 00:32:05.04] It's like I mentioned that I grew in a...
[00:32:05.04 - 00:32:10.12] in a large family and if your parents are saying, look at that guy, your brother is
[00:32:10.12 - 00:32:14.12] better than you are, well, you keep saying that, you're not gonna motivate the other
[00:32:14.12 - 00:32:20.04] people to step up, you're gonna demotivate them and they go, okay, take care of the
[00:32:20.04 - 00:32:21.04] high performers.
[00:32:21.04 - 00:32:24.21] And what are the ingredients of a culture?
[00:32:24.21 - 00:32:28.05] So I know you have your Culture Design Canvas.
[00:32:28.08 - 00:32:35.09] What are the key elements someone needs to consider when creating an intentional
[00:32:35.09 - 00:32:36.00] culture?
[00:32:36.00 - 00:32:41.01] For me, it's like the way the tool was born and I think it's important, like how it
[00:32:41.01 - 00:32:45.00] started, because you like the history and you mentioned the question, the how...
[00:32:45.00 - 00:32:51.08] it's that many people still think that culture is about having a purpose or having a set
[00:32:51.08 - 00:32:52.06] of core values.
[00:32:52.06 - 00:32:53.13] And that's about it.
[00:32:53.13 - 00:32:57.09] And in my experience, culture is something more comprehensive.
[00:32:57.09 - 00:33:01.20] And that's why we, I came up with this model, the Culture Design Canvas.
[00:33:01.20 - 00:33:02.11] And.
[00:33:02.15 - 00:33:05.10] As through an evolution, I've been testing the different elements.
[00:33:05.10 - 00:33:12.04] Now it has 10 building blocks, 10 areas, but they are basically three main areas
[00:33:12.04 - 00:33:14.03] that those elements capture.
[00:33:14.03 - 00:33:17.09] And that's what I call the ABCs of culture.
[00:33:17.09 - 00:33:23.00] The A stands for alignment, B belonging and C collaboration.
[00:33:23.05 - 00:33:29.20] Alignment is purpose, values, priorities and behaviors that we reward and behaviors
[00:33:29.20 - 00:33:31.04] that we punish.
[00:33:31.07 - 00:33:36.00] The B, Belonging, it's psychological safety, feedback and rituals, which you
[00:33:36.00 - 00:33:37.01] mentioned.
[00:33:37.01 - 00:33:40.19] And the C, Collaboration, it's how do we make decisions?
[00:33:40.20 - 00:33:45.03] How do we manage our meetings and our collaboration asynchronously and
[00:33:45.03 - 00:33:46.00] synchronously?
[00:33:46.00 - 00:33:49.09] And what are the norms and rules that guide our behavior?
[00:33:49.09 - 00:33:54.23] Do you think any company size needs to be thinking about culture or is it for like
[00:33:54.23 - 00:33:58.11] 50 people or maybe 500 people and up?
[00:33:58.11 - 00:34:04.01] I think everyone should be thinking about culture and especially if you're a startup
[00:34:04.01 - 00:34:08.18] and you're going to be growing in the next few years, you need to design your culture
[00:34:08.18 - 00:34:09.23] way ahead.
[00:34:09.23 - 00:34:14.07] Not when you grow up, but you need to design the culture before you grow up.
[00:34:14.07 - 00:34:19.05] So you let the culture and business take you in the right direction.
[00:34:19.05 - 00:34:21.17] Airbnb is a perfect example of that.
[00:34:21.17 - 00:34:27.08] They had a very clearly defined culture since they started and then they evolved it.
[00:34:27.08 - 00:34:27.17] But...
[00:34:27.17 - 00:34:31.00] They were very clear about the type of culture they want to build and that has
[00:34:31.00 - 00:34:33.05] helped Airbnb succeed.
[00:34:34.05 - 00:34:38.18] I mentioned I do a lot of training and consulting and I have people that are
[00:34:38.18 - 00:34:43.01] small teams, five, 10 teams, and they have benefit of using the Culture Design Canvas
[00:34:43.01 - 00:34:45.17] to map and evolve their culture.
[00:34:45.17 - 00:34:51.03] So you don't need to be a 5,000 or 50,000 employee organization to think about
[00:34:51.03 - 00:34:52.01] culture.
[00:34:52.15 - 00:34:55.21] Do you have any questions for me or is there a question I forgot to ask?
[00:34:55.21 - 00:34:58.14] Because I know you write a lot, you read a lot.
[00:34:59.03 - 00:35:03.10] No, I would like to hear, I mean, I always say when I join a podcast that I think
[00:35:03.10 - 00:35:06.00] it's important to hear both point of views.
[00:35:06.00 - 00:35:09.04] So I would like to hear some of your perspectives on the things I've been
[00:35:09.04 - 00:35:13.22] saying, what are the things that maybe you agree and why, and if you disagree or if
[00:35:13.22 - 00:35:17.01] you're unclear, how different also to share with the audience so it becomes like
[00:35:17.01 - 00:35:18.19] they can compare notes and...
[00:35:19.15 - 00:35:23.23] No, I think like I was telling you earlier, where we seem to be aligned in
[00:35:23.23 - 00:35:25.22] how we think about culture.
[00:35:27.05 - 00:35:30.18] I started this podcast because I was...
[00:35:32.16 - 00:35:39.02] disinfatuated or maybe frustrated by the fact that the leaders who were getting the
[00:35:39.02 - 00:35:44.01] attention were the leaders that were prioritizing their own benefit, you know,
[00:35:44.01 - 00:35:47.18] how much money am I going to raise for my startup and how much money am I going to
[00:35:47.18 - 00:35:52.22] make by selling my business or look at this cool technology I've produced and
[00:35:52.22 - 00:35:55.04] these are the leaders that often get praised.
[00:35:55.04 - 00:35:59.15] But we don't have the servant leaders often get praised and this was my calling
[00:35:59.15 - 00:36:01.21] I felt I had to do something about.
[00:36:02.01 - 00:36:06.16] And, you know, like, who's out there?
[00:36:07.04 - 00:36:12.06] Like, Netflix has a book about culture and we know about Southwest Airlines culture.
[00:36:12.06 - 00:36:19.11] And maybe there's like very few examples that unless you start digging into
[00:36:19.11 - 00:36:23.14] workplace culture, you won't find any of these leaders.
[00:36:23.23 - 00:36:28.12] And they don't talk about themselves because they're not the ones that want to
[00:36:28.12 - 00:36:29.14] steal the limelight.
[00:36:29.14 - 00:36:34.19] They're the ones that are happier behind the scenes helping people, you know, be
[00:36:34.19 - 00:36:38.03] more of themselves and have a more fulfilling life and have a more
[00:36:38.03 - 00:36:40.10] fulfilling, especially work life.
[00:36:40.16 - 00:36:45.12] And the other thing that I've realized from discussions with a lot of leaders
[00:36:45.12 - 00:36:49.13] like yourself, you know, people who create intentional cultures or help others create
[00:36:49.13 - 00:36:56.03] intentional cultures, is that the benefit is far more wide ranging than the
[00:36:56.03 - 00:36:57.18] immediate workplace environment.
[00:36:57.18 - 00:37:02.16] Because when someone's in a place that they love to work,
[00:37:02.16 - 00:37:04.17] their family will recognize it.
[00:37:04.17 - 00:37:08.10] Their family will see the positive effects in that person.
[00:37:08.10 - 00:37:13.08] And so as a leader, you are a multiplier, you have such a positive effect of making
[00:37:13.08 - 00:37:14.20] people's lives...
[00:37:17.14 - 00:37:22.20] more fullfilling and their family as well and their community as well.
[00:37:22.20 - 00:37:28.19] So I think I was actually... I'll do a quick digression.
[00:37:28.19 - 00:37:30.14] I was in a, in a,
[00:37:30.14 - 00:37:38.09] concert of Coldplay yesterday, you know, this one of the most streamed bands on
[00:37:38.09 - 00:37:47.00] Spotify and what was very interesting about Coldplay was the lead singer was in
[00:37:47.00 - 00:37:49.01] a sense a role model,
[00:37:49.02 - 00:37:53.11] a societal role model because he was explaining how we need to be more
[00:37:53.11 - 00:37:59.06] considerate about the environment, the group is financing a lot of environmental
[00:37:59.06 - 00:38:05.23] actions, reforesting and picking up garbage from the oceans and all sorts of
[00:38:05.23 - 00:38:06.17] things.
[00:38:06.17 - 00:38:12.17] And people like musicians, like Coldplay, they have immense influence in the world,
[00:38:12.17 - 00:38:13.19] as we know.
[00:38:13.19 - 00:38:18.11] It's very rare for them to be role models about, you know,
[00:38:18.23 - 00:38:24.22] helping us understand what we should be more thoughtful about, the same applies to
[00:38:24.22 - 00:38:26.11] corporate leaders.
[00:38:27.00 - 00:38:30.18] And corporate leaders, the larger the company, the more influence they have in
[00:38:30.18 - 00:38:34.22] the world, in their employees, but also their families and their community.
[00:38:34.22 - 00:38:43.09] And so we should have higher standards for their role models and what these leaders
[00:38:43.09 - 00:38:48.06] stand up to and definitely not just about
[00:38:48.07 - 00:38:55.01] themselves and their accomplishments, but the people that work for them.
[00:38:55.22 - 00:38:56.08] Definitely.
[00:38:56.08 - 00:39:03.00] And I like that approach that a organization's impact goes well beyond
[00:39:03.00 - 00:39:03.23] their business.
[00:39:03.23 - 00:39:09.03] No, like Coldplay doesn't just influence people music preferences and fun, but it
[00:39:09.03 - 00:39:12.09] can actually drive positive societal change.
[00:39:12.09 - 00:39:17.13] So to your point, true leaders are those who really not only want to model the
[00:39:17.13 - 00:39:22.10] right things to help the company, but also to help society because they know how big
[00:39:22.10 - 00:39:24.11] they know their employees families.
[00:39:24.11 - 00:39:25.05] I love that.
[00:39:25.05 - 00:39:27.02] You just mentioned that's a great point.
[00:39:27.02 - 00:39:27.21] Yeah, yeah.
[00:39:27.21 - 00:39:35.02] And we often forget that and it goes along with seeing people only as part of their
[00:39:35.02 - 00:39:39.04] work outfit and not as part of their full self.
[00:39:39.05 - 00:39:42.10] You know, people don't talk about what's happening in their life, they don't share
[00:39:42.10 - 00:39:46.16] emotions, they don't share that there might be something in their life which is
[00:39:46.16 - 00:39:48.20] actually making their work life very difficult.
[00:39:48.20 - 00:39:53.00] They're trying to hide all that because of fear.
[00:39:53.14 - 00:39:56.11] Going back to your, you know, the name of your...
[00:39:56.11 - 00:39:57.18] consultancy.
[00:39:58.21 - 00:40:07.16] So there's a lot of educating we need to do and there's a lot of as a result
[00:40:07.16 - 00:40:13.08] there's a lot of positive impact we can do if we can just touch a few leaders who
[00:40:13.08 - 00:40:14.19] touch many or even tens of thousands of people and can make their life better.
[00:40:14.19 - 00:40:18.06] touch many or even tens of thousands of people and can make their life better.
[00:40:18.06 - 00:40:21.20] For me that's a calling beyond any...
[00:40:22.08 - 00:40:27.16] any other in my life because of the ability to, you know, if I can help a few
[00:40:27.16 - 00:40:34.05] leaders or a few hundreds of leaders and businesses create more intentional
[00:40:34.05 - 00:40:38.11] cultures, create businesses like Seth Godin says that...
[00:40:40.14 - 00:40:42.08] then how much better
[00:40:42.08 - 00:40:49.04] would this world be if people had a more fulfilling half of their life, half of
[00:40:49.04 - 00:40:50.00] their waking life.
[00:40:50.00 - 00:40:50.18] Absolutely.
[00:40:50.18 - 00:40:55.18] And I'm, when people say I want to change the world, I don't want to change the
[00:40:55.18 - 00:40:56.04] world.
[00:40:56.04 - 00:41:01.02] I would like to, but I like to influence the people that I work with so they can
[00:41:01.02 - 00:41:03.10] influence the people that they work with and so on and so forth.
[00:41:03.10 - 00:41:07.13] So I think it's more of a chain reaction, so to speak.
[00:41:08.15 - 00:41:09.23] Yeah, yeah.
[00:41:10.00 - 00:41:11.20] That's Rethink Culture for me.
[00:41:14.16 - 00:41:17.13] So, so going back to rethinking what...
[00:41:17.13 - 00:41:21.17] When you see someone, when you see a leader, client or non-client,
[00:41:21.17 - 00:41:25.04] What's one thing you really want to whisper to their ear that would help them
[00:41:25.04 - 00:41:27.18] be more intentional about the culture they're building?
[00:41:27.18 - 00:41:33.02] For me the most important thing is they need to let go of the baby, right, so don't
[00:41:33.02 - 00:41:38.03] attach to ego to that baby the same way that parents know like I always say that
[00:41:38.03 - 00:41:44.04] people say look in Facebook yesterday someone was telling my kid is they don't
[00:41:44.04 - 00:41:47.05] say my kid graduated from high school.
[00:41:47.05 - 00:41:50.11] They say we are high school graduates.
[00:41:50.11 - 00:41:56.03] No, no, you're not, your kid, you know what I mean, so parents today are trying to get
[00:41:56.03 - 00:42:00.23] a credit or take credit for their contribution to whatever the kids and yeah
[00:42:00.23 - 00:42:04.19] they help them, they raise them, blah blah, but I think that leaders need to
[00:42:04.19 - 00:42:09.07] stop talking about what they do and acknowledge what people do because of what
[00:42:09.07 - 00:42:10.02] they did.
[00:42:10.02 - 00:42:14.21] So instead of saying we win this, acknowledge the other because when you do
[00:42:14.21 - 00:42:19.11] that you're gonna let your kids grow in the right direction versus feel like this
[00:42:19.11 - 00:42:21.11] is all about because of my parents.
[00:42:22.06 - 00:42:25.03] And that act of letting go is not just...
[00:42:25.03 - 00:42:30.17] a metaphor or nice wording, but actually you don't own your company.
[00:42:30.17 - 00:42:36.01] I was working with a high growth startup that VC complained all the time about
[00:42:36.01 - 00:42:37.13] people are not taking ownership.
[00:42:37.13 - 00:42:39.22] People are not making decisions, blah, blah, blah.
[00:42:39.22 - 00:42:43.05] But then he was always referring to the company as his baby.
[00:42:43.05 - 00:42:44.21] He was saying, this is my baby.
[00:42:44.21 - 00:42:47.09] No one is as invested as I am.
[00:42:47.09 - 00:42:49.04] No one knows all the risk I'm taking.
[00:42:49.04 - 00:42:52.21] If I screw up that... so well, if you don't let go of that, how do you want people to
[00:42:52.21 - 00:42:53.15] own something?
[00:42:53.15 - 00:42:53.21] Right?
[00:42:53.21 - 00:42:56.19] You need to give it away so they can own it.
[00:42:57.12 - 00:42:58.09] Yeah.
[00:42:58.09 - 00:43:01.09] You're laughing because it probably reminds you of someone else actually.
[00:43:01.09 - 00:43:03.01] No, but it's totally true.
[00:43:03.01 - 00:43:08.16] Start by sharing, you know, sharing a bit of what you're eating.
[00:43:08.16 - 00:43:10.16] It's not your identity.
[00:43:10.17 - 00:43:13.07] Everyone is invested in it.
[00:43:13.15 - 00:43:14.17] Yeah.
[00:43:14.17 - 00:43:18.07] And ownership, people need to own something, they cannot own something that
[00:43:18.07 - 00:43:20.00] you don't let go of.
[00:43:20.06 - 00:43:22.12] Totally, totally.
[00:43:22.12 - 00:43:29.21] Gustavo, what is a book you would recommend we read or something that you
[00:43:29.21 - 00:43:31.09] want to point our attention to?
[00:43:31.10 - 00:43:34.21] I would name maybe books that people already read or known.
[00:43:34.21 - 00:43:40.16] So rather than that, I would, if you don't mind, I would slightly change the
[00:43:40.16 - 00:43:41.15] approach.
[00:43:41.15 - 00:43:45.14] Instead of recommending books, I would recommend people to spend more time with
[00:43:45.14 - 00:43:45.22] people.
[00:43:45.22 - 00:43:48.20] So read life, read life.
[00:43:48.20 - 00:43:53.22] Like I think that we forget the power of observation.
[00:43:53.23 - 00:43:57.21] I love research because of, but the most important piece of learning doesn't come
[00:43:57.21 - 00:43:59.13] from book, doesn't come from research.
[00:43:59.13 - 00:44:01.15] It comes from actual experience.
[00:44:01.16 - 00:44:07.05] And sometimes leaders or consultants don't spend as much time
[00:44:07.05 - 00:44:11.03] on the trenches, like with people and not, Hey guys, what do you want?
[00:44:11.03 - 00:44:13.01] But basically get there.
[00:44:13.01 - 00:44:13.22] Like...
[00:44:14.13 - 00:44:17.20] Like for example, how many leaders don't actually go to their factories and
[00:44:17.20 - 00:44:22.19] manufacturing places to not just to see and talk to the manufacturing plant
[00:44:23.15 - 00:44:28.11] leader, but basically to see how people are working, observe them, go and eat the
[00:44:28.11 - 00:44:31.12] food they eat to see exactly because that's part of your culture.
[00:44:31.12 - 00:44:34.07] Do they have time to actually eat and pause?
[00:44:34.07 - 00:44:36.22] What are the safety measurements in place?
[00:44:36.22 - 00:44:40.21] That kind of stuff so get immersed with people because you're gonna learn a lot
[00:44:40.21 - 00:44:46.14] from that for sure and of course continue reading and... But that would be my my two
[00:44:46.14 - 00:44:47.05] cents
[00:44:47.05 - 00:44:53.03] That is very human and that's very real and it reminds me that we shouldn't be
[00:44:53.03 - 00:44:56.05] listening to... until the other person stop...
[00:44:59.10 - 00:45:02.22] to connect and understand the humanity in the
[00:45:02.22 - 00:45:04.13] other person.
[00:45:05.15 - 00:45:11.03] Gustavo, thank you so much for spending that time with us and being gracious with
[00:45:11.03 - 00:45:12.08] your time.
[00:45:12.10 - 00:45:17.19] And same thing for everyone who's been watching us on YouTube or listening to us
[00:45:17.19 - 00:45:19.10] all this time.
[00:45:20.14 - 00:45:22.12] You can...
[00:45:22.12 - 00:45:27.00] tell your friends about this episode if you want to help us you can leave a comment on
[00:45:27.00 - 00:45:31.16] your favorite podcast application, you can email me directly with any comments at
[00:45:31.16 - 00:45:38.18] andreas{rethinkculture.co, if you just listened but didn't watch we do have a
[00:45:38.18 - 00:45:49.03] YouTube channel so you can see us in flesh and blood on YouTube and I sincerely wish
[00:45:49.03 - 00:45:50.08] that
[00:45:50.18 - 00:45:56.03] everyone listening can help in their own small ways create a happier, healthier
[00:45:56.15 - 00:45:59.15] workplace for you and for those around you.
[00:45:59.16 - 00:46:02.14] So thank you Andreas for hosting me and thank you everyone for joining.
[00:46:02.14 - 00:46:06.02] For those who are watching the recording, we are here with you.