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Ever wondered how a near-firing can lead to a top executive role?
Raul and Toni take a deep dive into Toni's career journey. From his beginnings as a struggling part-timer in Copenhagen to becoming the Chief Revenue Officer at Falcon. Plus, a candid discussion of mistakes made and lessons learned along the way.
Raul and Toni take a deep dive into Toni's career journey. From his beginnings as a struggling part-timer in Copenhagen to becoming the Chief Revenue Officer at Falcon. Plus, a candid discussion of mistakes made and lessons learned along the way.
Creators & Guests
What is Revenue Brothers?
What happens when a VC and a CEO come together?
– They nerd out about all things revenue. And they don’t always agree.
Raul Porojan of Project A Ventures and Toni Hohlbein of Growblocks are the Super Revenue Brothers. In every episode they dissect and debate current issues in B2B SaaS, and offer solutions on how to solve them
No matter if you’re an early-stage startup or a scaling unicorn – you’ll always learn something new.
Introdcution
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[00:00:00]
Toni: I almost got fired. ~ ~And the CEO was [00:00:03] like, well, you know, maybe I can take him under my wing so that he can help me a [00:00:06] little bit with the admin stuff, right? Then, instead of helping with the admin [00:00:09] stuff, are basically decided to, you know, [00:00:12] act like the mini CFO.
Toni: ~Um, you know, without, ~without the gravitas, [00:00:15] without the, Hey, you know, this is my area, but I took it like [00:00:18] seriously. ~Um, I, um, ~I didn't fuck around [00:00:21] So hi everyone. ~Um, ~I just biked to [00:00:24] work because that's what we're doing here in Denmark. ~Um, ~and we're [00:00:27] doing this without video, but otherwise you could see in the background, ~uh, ~[00:00:30] out of the window that it's raining like crazy. ~And ~I also [00:00:33] dropped off both kids, meaning I was busy biking ~in the, ~in the [00:00:36] rain for 45 minutes.
Toni: And obviously because I [00:00:39] live in Denmark, I have like raincoat and [00:00:42] rain jacket and ~like ~rain boots and everything is perfect. [00:00:45] However, , there's apparently a hole in my [00:00:48] rain pants in a very unfortunate spot. So [00:00:51] basically when I took off my rain pants today, ~um, ~[00:00:54] you know, it was a little bit of a funny site, but, ~uh, ~but that's kind [00:00:57] of living in Denmark, I guess, you know, you, you bike everywhere and [00:01:00] doesn't matter the weather.
Toni: You kind of keep doing that. And, um, [00:01:03] really happy to be in the studio today ~with, uh, ~with Raul ~on the, ~on the [00:01:06] other digital side of the studio.
Raul: How [00:01:09] unfortunate are we that we don't have video with this podcast then?[00:01:12]
Toni: Yeah, I'm not sure.
Raul: I guess.
Toni: Yeah. Raul, ~what's, ~[00:01:15] what's up in your life? ~How are, ~how are you settling in? ~Yeah.~
Raul: ~Um, uh, ~we had just got [00:01:18] done with the Pacon last week on Friday. I know we talked about this two [00:01:21] episodes ago. ~Uh, ~and that was real fun, [00:01:24] but, ~uh, ~also different. ~So, ~format was different. ~Um, ~and then [00:01:27] also another, a couple of other events, ~and, uh, ~there is [00:01:30] something brewing up, ~like it's, ~some things are a bit weird, ~uh, ~I would say ~people are, I don't know, ~[00:01:33] people are a bit worried, people are a bit stifled, it seems [00:01:36] like, ~uh, there is, there is, ~at least in Berlin, and at least with the people I'm talking [00:01:39] to, ~um, ~there's less happening, less hiring, less [00:01:42] projects, less everything, um, [00:01:45] And, uh, it's the first time in maybe [00:01:48] actually the entire year that ~I can, ~I could [00:01:51] tangibly feel this, all the economies ~is, uh, ~is [00:01:54] down right now.
Raul: ~Uh, ~even though apparently ~it's, ~it's up again. I read [00:01:57] that somewhere a couple of weeks ago. So actually ~we're, ~we're beyond the [00:02:00] worst I heard, ~but~
Toni: ~Stocks are good. ~Stocks are good.
Raul: So [00:02:03] maybe it's gonna, uh, it's gonna be just [00:02:06] temporary, but, um, as a, someone as a [00:02:09] service provider, a consultant, someone who works with [00:02:12] startups, you're always at ~kind of ~the mercy of the situation of [00:02:15] how willing people are to actually improve and work on things.
Raul: And it [00:02:18] seems like right now, nothing's moving on that [00:02:21] end. ~Uh, and, ~and other people I'm talking to as well, ~uh, ~[00:02:24] which, ~I mean, it ~is whatever it is. ~Uh, that's, ~that's part of the job, but it is [00:02:27] fascinating because people still have money and people still have [00:02:30] problems. ~Um, ~just their attitudes about them change.
Raul: So that's quite interesting to [00:02:33] me right now.
Toni: ~Yeah. ~Interesting. I'm sure plenty of [00:02:36] listeners ~have the same, ~have the same situation and probably kind of looking at some of the same [00:02:39] problems, ~probably. ~So Maybe, ~maybe that's a, ~that's a topic for [00:02:42] another episode. Uh, Raul, what, what, what was it [00:02:45] that you wanted to talk about today?
Raul: So today I just [00:02:48] want to talk about, that's so interesting to me. The most interesting, ~uh, ~[00:02:51] conversation to me, obviously it's always about you, Toni, [00:02:54] and, ~uh, ~I realized we, we actually haven't done this. ~Um, ~[00:02:57] and, ~uh, ~you could call it some of like a villain or hero [00:03:00] origin story. However you want to see the two of us [00:03:03] and ~uh, ~it's funny, by the way, you're probably the hero in this.
Raul: I'm the villain cause [00:03:06] nobody can see this, but you're wearing white. I'm wearing black. So [00:03:09] let's start with the hero, the person wearing
Raul: and ~uh, ~we're [00:03:12] going to do Toni's story. ~Uh, and ~
Toni's Origin Story
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Raul: this is something I'm interested in [00:03:15] too. ~Uh, I have a little bit of a, ~I did some research. ~Uh, ~on you, Toni, ~uh, ~I found all the [00:03:18] little secrets and, ~uh, ~I want to find out a little bit about [00:03:21] you ~and, and, ~and we can find out, ~uh, a little bit about ~personally where you're [00:03:24] from, but then also the learnings you made ~and, and, ~and how you got [00:03:27] to where you are right now and maybe what you [00:03:30] can share with others and what you can teach us about
Toni: [00:03:33] Yeah. I mean, ~I'm, uh, ~I'm flattered. ~Um, ~[00:03:36] Raul, ~uh, ~also ~that you, you know, ~that you came up with that idea. I'm not going to say I did, ~um, ~[00:03:39] but ~let's, ~let's go. I mean, ~where, ~where should I start? Honestly, right. ~Kind of, I mean, uh, maybe, ~[00:03:42] maybe you kind of give me some guardrails and then ~I'll, I'll, ~I'll start [00:03:45] talking.
Raul: ~Yeah. ~Yeah. So let's not start, ~uh, ~classically at the [00:03:48] beginning. I was born when I was a little boy, right? You [00:03:51] are, and this is always something that interests me also, you're actually [00:03:54] German, which not everyone knows. And [00:03:57] you are from a place very close to me where I am [00:04:00] right now. So you, you're sitting in Copenhagen [00:04:03] and he chose to make that your, ~uh, ~your, your city and, [00:04:06] or at least ~your, ~your, your place, ~um, ~for now, and for the [00:04:09] near future.
Raul: ~Um, how, ~how come I know that obviously business [00:04:12] plays into that. And so maybe this is kind of where it led, where that [00:04:15] led you. ~Uh, ~maybe you can tell us a bit, a little bit about the [00:04:18] origin story of your
Toni: yeah.
Raul: love with [00:04:21] Copenhagen.
Toni: So, I mean, originally I was actually born [00:04:24] a little bit north of Dresden, so kind of, I'm from Saxony, ~kind of, uh, originally, originally, uh, ~[00:04:27] moved very quickly then to Potsdam and lived there most of my [00:04:30] life. ~Um, ~studied in Frankfurt Oder, ~um, ~so very East [00:04:33] German story up until here. ~Um, ~and then at some point decided to [00:04:36] do my master's basically, ~um, ~here in Copenhagen at [00:04:39] CVS.
Toni: ~And, um, ~And number one, ~um, ~you know, ~the, ~the idea was [00:04:42] actually to. ~you know, ~study two [00:04:45] semesters here, do a semester abroad, and then do a semester [00:04:48] from home, Germany, ~um, ~to do my master thesis. [00:04:51] All of that changed a little bit, ~um, actually to a large degree ~because of the company [00:04:54] that I joined. And the company that I joined was Falcon back then.
Toni: I was [00:04:57] basically a part time student. I was, what [00:05:00] Clay is now doing for a couple of credits, I was doing this [00:05:03] for, you know, 20 Euros an hour. ~Um, and, um, um, ~And, ~um, ~I basically kind of, [00:05:06] you know, worked in this company and, ~you know, ~started, ~uh, ~I [00:05:09] was almost getting fired. ~Uh, ~because I was really bad at this research [00:05:12] job, um, you know, lead research.
Toni: So I [00:05:15] started working more on the finance and operations side, ~um, ~[00:05:18] helped the CEO back then raise the series A funding, which [00:05:21] was 6 million euros, which was big back then. ~Um, ~and at that [00:05:24] point I was like, okay, I got accepted [00:05:27] to, ~um, ~some university, some business university in Hong [00:05:30] Kong for the semester abroad.
Toni: So bye bye, I'm [00:05:33] going to go to Hong Kong now for six months. And my [00:05:36] CEO was like, ~um, ~no, ~we just, we just got, ~we just got 6 million [00:05:39] Legos, Toni. ~We, you know, ~we need someone to help, ~you know, ~play with them [00:05:42] now. ~Um, ~and then I was like, okay, okay, I can see that. ~Um, ~[00:05:45] but ~if, ~if and when we're opening an office in the US, [00:05:48] New York, Boston, San Francisco, I don't care.[00:05:51]
Toni: And he was like, yes, Toni, I'll send you. ~Um, ~and then lo and [00:05:54] behold, we opened an office in the US, I think one or two [00:05:57] years later, ~um, ~and then at first we [00:06:00] sent, ~um, ~our sales leader there. ~Um, ~and then [00:06:03] basically after he has been there for nine months or something like this, ~um, I, ~[00:06:06] I went there and, ~um, ~did a bunch of stuff there basically, right?
Toni: Kind of, [00:06:09] that was really the, ~um, ~that was the story there. ~And, ~and [00:06:12] I also got to say, kind of, once you lived in New York and [00:06:15] Copenhagen, ~um, ~I don't think Berlin is so super awesome anymore. ~Um, ~[00:06:18] also think the pay levels are very, very different, ~uh, ~[00:06:21] especially for our line of business. ~Um, ~and, you know, once you get into [00:06:24] this, you know, a situation of, oh, let's buy a [00:06:27] house and, ~you know, ~maybe a summer house somewhere.
Toni: And like, [00:06:30] you're not going to move away from Copenhagen anymore. Right. ~But, ~
Life in Copenhagen vs. Germany
---
Toni: [00:06:33] but also frankly, ~um, ~I think Germany is [00:06:36] starting to fall behind. I think Europe is starting to fall behind, [00:06:39] but Germany is definitely starting to fall behind and like all [00:06:42] kinds of, ~um, ~quality of life issues. And this is not [00:06:45] just, Working long hours.
Toni: I don't have anything [00:06:48] against working long hours, but it's really the, you know, you [00:06:51] still use cash in Germany, kind of in Denmark doesn't exist [00:06:54] anymore. It's like, everyone just pays with a phone or, you know, ~the, the, ~the [00:06:57] old people still use only a credit card, you know, ~kind of that's, ~that's the [00:07:00] level here in Copenhagen.
Toni: Right. So, ~um, when you go, you know, ~I text [00:07:03] with my doctor, I have ~like a, ~like an app, ~um, ~secure app [00:07:06] where I can schedule time where I can text with my doctor. ~Um, ~[00:07:09] I can send, you know. Pictures of ~the, ~the kid, ~uh, ~[00:07:12] Hey, you know, scratch here or kind of weird looking [00:07:15] something here, what is this? And then he says like, Oh, you [00:07:18] know, it's this and this thing.
Toni: Prescription ~is, ~is, you [00:07:21] know, issued. And then I can just go to [00:07:24] a pharmacy here only with my phone, [00:07:27] you know, identify myself as, Hey, I'm the dad of that [00:07:30] person. ~Uh, ~pay with my phone if there's anything that needs to be [00:07:33] paid. All of this happens in like 30 minutes. [00:07:36] And if you want to do the same thing with your kid in [00:07:39] Germany, you're more looking like three days.
Toni: ~Um, ~and after three [00:07:42] days when something like this happens, you don't, you don't need the [00:07:45] medicine anymore. It's like probably your kid came, you know, got over [00:07:48] the issue. ~Um, ~and, and this is just one of those stories, [00:07:51] right? ~Um, ~and there I'm just thinking, you know, what Germany is just, [00:07:54] And another story is I had a, ~um, ~sorry, sorry, maybe [00:07:57] I digress, but I had like a, ~um, uh, ~a very small, [00:08:00] small business in Germany, kind of like a, I forgot what it was.
Toni: ~Um, you know, ~it [00:08:03] wasn't a GmbH or something like a UGI or something like [00:08:06] that. ~Uh, and, um, kind of, ~it was going on ~for, um, ~for a while. I used it, then I stopped using it [00:08:09] and I forgot about it. Then I got, ~you know, ~a post from, ~you know, ~these [00:08:12] guys and I was like, Hey, is this still operating? If [00:08:15] not, please kill it.
Toni: I was like, okay, let's kill it. ~Um, and you know, ~I was on calls [00:08:18] with them and back and forth and sent them, ~you know, ~postal [00:08:21] mail and PDF and all that stuff. ~Um, ~they made a [00:08:24] screw up, then they ~kind of ~fined me 50 euros, but they [00:08:27] actually screwed up, which they agreed to, but they couldn't reverse it [00:08:30] anymore.
Toni: And it's like, this was going on for like three [00:08:33] months, ~um, ~for like 50 euros, six years in total. ~Um, and, ~[00:08:36] and the same at another tax issue in Denmark, [00:08:39] you know, There was, you know, I had an exit, something [00:08:42] happened. They were like, Hey, ~we, ~we [00:08:45] assume you had another exit. ~Um, ~basically kind of, that's how the Danish tax [00:08:48] system works.
Toni: Kind of what you did last year. They kind of just rolled [00:08:51] forward. I was like, I wish, I wish, but I [00:08:54] didn't. ~Um, ~that's why I also can't pay those taxes. ~And this converse, you know, ~and then they [00:08:57] erased everything. This conversation happened while I was on [00:09:00] vacation in Egypt, ~chatting, online ~chatting. with [00:09:03] the ~Danish tax system, ~Danish tax authorities.
Toni: I was like, Oh, actually this thing [00:09:06] didn't happen. ~Uh, ~so please remove this. Was a very big [00:09:09] amount of taxes that they just like, Oh, okay, Mr. Holbein, thank [00:09:12] you very much. Bye bye. Enjoy your vacation. And you know [00:09:15] what? That's just. That's just different here than it is in [00:09:18] Germany. And, ~um, ~and, you know, sometimes you see on LinkedIn, those [00:09:21] stories of, ~um, ~people trying to create a [00:09:24] GmbH, like a limited corporation, [00:09:27] and they celebrate once they've done it after one and a half years, [00:09:30] he do this in an afternoon, like it's an afternoon and you [00:09:33] have another, you have another limited online.
Toni: Right. And it's kind of, [00:09:36] you know, those kinds of things. I just, I just don't want to, don't [00:09:39] want to deal with that shit.
Raul: So, ~uh, from, ~from my backwards country [00:09:42] here in Germany, ~um, ~I see that though. I agree with these [00:09:45] things. And, ~um, I, ~I see your big proponent of [00:09:48] digitalization, ~uh, ~to me actually, by the way, I'm quite scared of a future [00:09:51] with no cash. I think cash is a really important thing ~for, ~[00:09:54] for society, but, ~uh, ~that's maybe a different topic and I'm not like ~a, ~A [00:09:57] conspiracy theorist or anything.
Raul: I do think cash is really important for a [00:10:00] couple different reasons. So I do hope ~we ~we [00:10:03] Have that stick around a little bit longer ~Um ~before [00:10:06] we move to completely cashless at least have [00:10:09] the option, right? That's like you can you can [00:10:12] pay cash if you want to ~um, but let's ~let's maybe go a bit ~uh into ~into [00:10:15] this History of your employment and ~maybe ~[00:10:18] maybe differently.
Raul: What how come?
The Falcon Journey
---
Raul: [00:10:21] You actually stuck with Falcons cause you kind of jumped [00:10:24] with Falcon cause you actually jumped over that. You said, ~uh, ~yeah, [00:10:27] I was studying. And then all of a sudden I was in New York. Right. So [00:10:30] at some point you obviously graduated and then I [00:10:33] guess you graduated, but if you don't, whatever.
Raul: And, ~uh, ~[00:10:36] you chose to go there and, ~uh, ~was that something you had [00:10:39] always planned? Maybe, maybe there was something else you had [00:10:42] planned when you, when you were starting to study. So for example, at my [00:10:45] university, everyone started out, ~uh, ~400 students and [00:10:48] 400 of them wanted to go to McKinsey, right? In the end, not 400 [00:10:51] that went to McKinsey, ~uh, ~and not only because they couldn't make [00:10:54] it, but also because they had changed their mind.
Raul: So what was the journey here for [00:10:57] you and what made you stick with Falcon?
Toni: Yeah, ~when I ~when [00:11:00] I was studying business in Frankfurt Oder, which is [00:11:03] actually, you know, it's Frankfurt Oder, it's like, where the fuck is that? And what kind [00:11:06] of a fucking school is that? It's actually really good. I think it's a really [00:11:09] solid business education that you get there, just not without the [00:11:12] pedigree.
Toni: ~Um, ~so when I was there, I was like looking [00:11:15] around and like, Ooh, I want to go to McKinsey or [00:11:18] maybe rather BCG or like all of that, you know, [00:11:21] those big life decisions. ~Um, ~I [00:11:24] interviewed with all of them, but didn't get anything. ~Um, ~I don't think ~I'm a, ~I'm a very [00:11:27] convincing, ~uh, ~consultant apparently. ~Um, ~and then [00:11:30] actually after I finished my bachelor, I started working [00:11:33] at a very, very small boutique VC [00:11:36] private equity firm.
Toni: ~Uh, ~we're talking basically family [00:11:39] office style. ~Um, ~and there I ended up being extremely [00:11:42] hands on. ~So ~you had a couple of investments. ~Uh, ~some of them weren't going [00:11:45] so well, and then I basically got deployed. to that investment [00:11:48] to help out and fix it. Like, ~um, ~I'm not sure if I was fixing [00:11:51] anything by the way, but I learned a lot.
Toni: I learned a lot. ~Um, ~you know, [00:11:54] how to run companies, how this actually works, how the whole governance works, [00:11:57] the legal setup, all of these things are basically kind of what you're [00:12:00] supposed to actually learn in school. ~Um, I, ~I really learned [00:12:03] there. ~Um, ~And this is where I started to realize, Hey, this, ~um, ~the startup [00:12:06] thing could be a real alternative to the McKinsey [00:12:09] grind.
Toni: ~Um, ~you know, it's the same grind, but nicer [00:12:12] people. ~Um, ~and one big upside for me was I didn't need to wear [00:12:15] a suit. I realized I hated suit. So my [00:12:18] worst nightmare was. ~Uh, ~wearing a suit, ~um, ~[00:12:21] in the Berlin S Bahn, which [00:12:24] back then ~wasn't, uh, ~didn't have any AC. I think now there's a bit of [00:12:27] like AC, ~um,~
Raul: It's called a window you can open.
Toni: [00:12:30] Yeah,
Raul: a little bit of upstairs.
Toni: Yeah. ~Uh, ~but ~in the, ~in the height of summer at [00:12:33] 35 degrees, ~kind of, that was my, ~that was my horror. ~Um, so, ~so I never really wanted to ~kind of, uh, ~[00:12:36] wear a suit actually. ~Um, ~and then the sole startup thing was really [00:12:39] good. ~Uh, ~and then it was here in Copenhagen. I was looking around, ~was ~[00:12:42] predominantly looking for startups, but ~it was ~also looking for [00:12:45] consulting stuff.
Toni: ~Um, ~had an offer from ~like ~a [00:12:48] pharmaceutical consultancy, ~kind of ~super small also. ~Um, ~but, ~you know, didn't, uh, ~[00:12:51] didn't feel like going for it. So I went for the other piece. ~Um, ~and this [00:12:54] then, ~you know, I think. ~I think I was just also [00:12:57] extremely lucky that that one first thing that I really, ~you know, ~[00:13:00] sank my teeth into, ~uh, ~took off like it [00:13:03] did.
Toni: ~Um, and, and, and ~then after that I did the next thing and also [00:13:06] took off. Well, it has had taken off [00:13:09] already kind of when I joined. So, ~but, but ~you know what I mean? ~Kind of, ~I'm a little bit, ~um, ~[00:13:12] Spoiled in the sense of like, Hey, you know, sure, [00:13:15] all of these startups, they succeed and they sell for 200 million, 500 million.
Toni: It's [00:13:18] like, that's how it obviously works. And then [00:13:21] obviously this whole equation of maybe I get a little bit less cash, but [00:13:24] some equity that suddenly makes total sense. [00:13:27] Right. ~Um, and, um, ~and it's not always like that, ~but, um, ~but that's how I came ~to the, um, ~to the [00:13:30] startup ecosystem.
Raul: know, that's funny. That's a discussion I actually had a [00:13:33] couple of years ago because my story is completely different. ~Um, ~[00:13:36] the first couple of startups I joined always crashed [00:13:39] completely or didn't crash. Uh, but [00:13:42] I had some equity and left with zero euros [00:13:45] either cause I got screwed over or it just went that way and [00:13:48] nothing happened.
Raul: ~And ~so to me, I got extremely risk [00:13:51] averse to, ~uh, ~just, ~uh, Like ~seeing equity as money. I'm actually still [00:13:54] interested in equity, but I don't see it as money [00:13:57] really. ~And, um, ~then you have these people who maybe like you, or maybe like [00:14:00] others who have that ~track record, ~track record, who, ~uh, ~post on [00:14:03] LinkedIn and be like, yeah, you should see this as like money and [00:14:06] you should see this as like a component, look how much money you're going to make [00:14:09] here.
Raul: And are actually convinced of that. ~So, so, ~so they believe that as [00:14:12] well. ~Um, ~And so I think nobody's really lying about, actually [00:14:15] people are lying about this, but many people are actually not lying about [00:14:18] this. They really see what they have experienced [00:14:21] and, ~um, ~I'm glad for you ~that, ~that it worked out that way.
Raul: And that [00:14:24] obviously made you the Toni you are nowadays.
Toni: To this [00:14:27] point, actually, we just on the other show that I'm running, the [00:14:30] Revenue Formula, yesterday recorded an episode. We could have [00:14:33] called it Corner Cure, but, but we didn't because, you [00:14:36] know, that's, that's this show, but it was, yeah, [00:14:39] exactly. But it was basically about warrants. Is it, is [00:14:42] it, is it fake? Is it, is it real?
Toni: Should you be [00:14:45] thinking, how should you be thinking about warrants? ~And, um, ~and the answer there is, it's [00:14:48] obviously a very mixed thing, right? And actually kind of, yes, [00:14:51] especially early stage, you shouldn't be seeing this as [00:14:54] compensation for a couple of reasons. And then you have late stage, you [00:14:57] know, sometimes even where a company is public and you get some [00:15:00] restricted, ~uh, ~stock options or something like this, or share units, ~um, ~that [00:15:03] kind of is like money.
Toni: Like that's the closest to [00:15:06] money you can get. ~Um, ~so, you know, it, it depends, ~but, ~[00:15:09] but yes, I totally agree with you though.
Raul: And funnily enough, ~also, um, ~[00:15:12] Part of the reason, and we'll talk about it at another time, ~but, uh, ~I [00:15:15] was very close to your, I never want to have to wear [00:15:18] a suit sentiment. ~Um, ~to me it was actually about, I don't want to be [00:15:21] forced to wear a suit. Like ~I really, I really like, dislike, and ~I really hate being forced to do [00:15:24] something specifically like wearing a suit, for [00:15:27] example, and, ~uh, ~that is part of the reason I didn't, ~uh, ~after I had a [00:15:30] consultancy internship, didn't join that.
Raul: But we'll talk about that another time. [00:15:33] But it's fascinating to hear that as well. Apparently I was not the only [00:15:36] one, ~um, with whatever it is. ~Just don't make me wear a suit, right?
Toni: Yeah. [00:15:39] Yeah, exactly.
From Intern to CRO
---
Raul: how come you ended up staying there? [00:15:42] Because obviously there must've been something where you were like, okay, I'm really [00:15:45] good at this.
Raul: ~Um, ~what was the value that you, [00:15:48] and you can sure be applaud yourself a little bit here, but [00:15:51] there must've been something where the CEO was like, I really need to [00:15:54] I really need this guy here or in New York [00:15:57] or wherever, and I'm even going to send him there if he wants to. What [00:16:00] did you do there that made you stick around and that [00:16:03] made you so valuable to Falcon?
Toni: Yeah. ~Um, ~so, [00:16:06] you know, I joined as a part timer doing some lead [00:16:09] research. Um, and then I almost got [00:16:12] fired.~ ~And [00:16:15] the CEO was like, well, you know, maybe I can take him under [00:16:18] my wing so that he can help me a little bit with the admin stuff, right? [00:16:21] And they are basically then, instead of [00:16:24] helping with the admin stuff, are basically decided [00:16:27] to, you know, act like the, the mini [00:16:30] CFO.
Toni: ~Um, you know, without, ~without the gravitas, without the, Hey, you know, this is [00:16:33] my area, but I took it like seriously. ~Um, I, um, ~I didn't fuck [00:16:36] around. I was like, Hey, dear salesperson, here's a [00:16:39] signature missing. ~Uh, ~like on the deal, you said it's booked. It's [00:16:42] not booked. Where's the deal? ~Um, and, um, ~And I basically kind of helped give this [00:16:45] company a bit of structure, ~uh, ~which is also what I did basically ~for the, ~for the private [00:16:48] equity VC boutique firm that I was at [00:16:51] earlier.
Toni: ~Um, and, ~and that kind of structure then suddenly became pretty [00:16:54] crucial for fundraising, right? ~Kind of, we, we all know this, ~you need to have your numbers ~under, ~[00:16:57] under control. ~Um, so ~I ended up basically being, ~uh, ~[00:17:00] the founders. ~you know, ~right hand when it came to [00:17:03] funding. ~Um, and you know, ~I was joining the board meetings [00:17:06] and there was ~like ~a moment where, okay, [00:17:09] no live deals in the pipeline anymore for the next [00:17:12] fundraise.
Toni: ~Uh, ~went around the table. Hey, do you guys have like, [00:17:15] something and no, no, no, no, no. ~Um, ~and it [00:17:18] was pretty depressing. It was basically like, oh, okay, this thing is [00:17:21] over. So I walked out and kind of outside, I was [00:17:24] like, why don't, why don't I give it a shot? Why don't I try and [00:17:27] find an investor for you?
Toni: ~And he was like, sure, go ahead, do right. Um, ~so what did I end up doing? I took kind of [00:17:30] his pitch deck, which was like 20 slides. I cut it down to [00:17:33] three or six slides. I added like one number [00:17:36] slide. ~Um, ~And then I did a, ~um, you know, ~Microsoft [00:17:39] Outlook mail merge, ~um, ~and send it [00:17:42] to, I think 150 VCs, something like [00:17:45] that.
Toni: ~Um, ~from ~the, you know, ~the stuff that everyone tells you you shouldn't be [00:17:48] doing. ~Um, ~and then I generated, I think 10 [00:17:51] or 15 meetings. ~Um, ~and then we closed the deal from those 10 or [00:17:54] 15 meetings, ~uh, ~for 6 million. ~Um, and, ~and obviously ~this was like a, You know, this was, ~this was [00:17:57] not magic or anything like this.
Toni: It was just ~like, um, you know, ~going through the process, [00:18:00] initiating it. And obviously, ~you know, ~I didn't close shit here. I was the [00:18:03] SDR basically for this deal. Kind of everything else was handled [00:18:06] by ~obviously ~someone else. ~Um, ~but, ~um, ~I think that got me close [00:18:09] to, ~you know, Got to be ~a good spot ~in, in, ~in the company then going forward.
Toni: ~Um, ~[00:18:12] and basically kind of when some of this money was then connected and I'm kind [00:18:15] of mixing up timelines here now, but [00:18:18] ultimately we were kind of realizing, hey, ~um, ~it's all [00:18:21] cool that you're doing kind of a CFO ish job here, Toni, you [00:18:24] know, kudos, clap on the shoulder, here's a pay raise. [00:18:27] But now we do actually need someone with a [00:18:30] title and it, I don't think it should be you.[00:18:33]
Toni: It should be someone with gray hair, someone has done it [00:18:36] before, someone that blah, blah, blah, which, you know, at the time I [00:18:39] was like a little bit upset, trying, wasn't trying to show [00:18:42] it. ~Um, ~but basically the idea then was from, [00:18:45] from the CEO, I was like, Hey, Toni, ~um, ~why don't [00:18:48] you? Because I was also building the model and how we want to [00:18:51] grow and the budget and all that stuff.
Toni: It's like, why don't [00:18:54] you go from, ~uh, ~you know, building the Excel spreadsheet [00:18:57] to taking the spreadsheet and making it reality, [00:19:00] right? And this is then where I went from, you [00:19:03] know, a bit more of a finance perspective. And this was still [00:19:06] super early in the one or two or first three years. ~Um, uh, ~basically kind of [00:19:09] flipping over, applying my finance and [00:19:12] data driven mindset to the sales and marketing side.
Toni: ~Um, ~and in the [00:19:15] beginning, we didn't know what it was. ~Um, ~we actually called me [00:19:18] special operations manager. [00:19:21] I was basically doing, ~uh, ~[00:19:24] sales operations and a couple of other things, and then later [00:19:27] on, ~um, you know, the, the, ~the leaders around sales were like, so [00:19:30] marketing on the CS was like, Hey, we also need a Toni and I was like, [00:19:33] wow. ~Why don't I, ~why don't I hire that person? ~Um, ~and we, ~we, uh, ~[00:19:36] combine it under me. ~Um, ~and I maybe report [00:19:39] back to the CEO, ~um, you know, long con, ~long game.
Toni: ~Um, ~and, ~um, ~[00:19:42] we call it revenue, no, commercial operations. And everyone [00:19:45] was like, sure, let's do that. And then the thing [00:19:48] was, ~uh, ~we still had a large, ~you know, ~lead [00:19:51] research team. Clay still wasn't around back then. ~Um, ~so, ~you know, ~all of [00:19:54] those people were part of that operations team. ~And, ~[00:19:57] and then I was just, ~you know, ~I was the guy [00:20:00] to get all the teams that didn't work [00:20:03] out.
Toni: So the first thing was like, those SDRs. [00:20:06] You know, either we're going to fire [00:20:09] them or maybe give, you know, to someone to fix [00:20:12] it. And I was like, well, let me try and fix it. I'll fix it. [00:20:15] And it became a wonderful, you know, revenue stream for [00:20:18] Falcon, like for years to come. ~Um, ~and then, you know, the next [00:20:21] thing was like, well, you know, really for balancing this [00:20:24] CAC Payback thing, you know, there should be [00:20:27] more.
Toni: ~uh, ~input on the performance marketing side, how [00:20:30] this should work. ~Um, ~and then I ended up getting that as well. ~Um, ~[00:20:33] and at that point I was ~like, um, ~basically running all the demand [00:20:36] gen, ~um, you know, ~feeding the AEs, but also creating the [00:20:39] structure for the AEs and targets and so forth, working [00:20:42] extremely closely with all the VPs anyway.
Toni: ~Um, ~and this was [00:20:45] then around 2018 when I was basically, [00:20:48] this was, the reason was, I wasn't really called [00:20:51] back. I was like, well, you know, I could come back. ~Um, ~But then also [00:20:54] my CEO was like, well, you know. I really [00:20:57] need someone to look more after all the commercial stuff. [00:21:00] And I was like, okay, cool. Yeah, sure. I can do that.
Toni: Um, [00:21:03] comes with a little bit of a different title though, Ulrich. Uh, and he [00:21:06] was like, no, I know. Um, and that's then, [00:21:09] that's when we made the move where then I got, ~uh, basically ~all the [00:21:12] commercial VPs, ~uh, ~and revenue operations and then ~became ~became [00:21:15] CRO of the organization ~up until, ~up until we exited the company.[00:21:18]
Raul: How many years in was that? From, from [00:21:21] intern to CRO.
Toni: I think [00:21:24] 2018 or something like this. So I think, ~uh, ~late [00:21:27] 2012, I joined. So five, six years, something [00:21:30] like this.
Raul: Okay.
Lessons and Reflections
---
Raul: You [00:21:33] know, there seems to be a pattern here. I don't know if you [00:21:36] realize this, but ~like, um, ~the way you laid it out is like, oh, there was a challenge that [00:21:39] presented itself. And nobody knew how to fix it. And so I [00:21:42] was like, give it to me. ~And, ~and then you did that four or five, six [00:21:45] different times, one after the other, you [00:21:48] miraculously managed to, ~to sell, ~solve that [00:21:51] thing.
Raul: ~Um, ~and then, ~uh, ~obviously things work out, right? Cause [00:21:54] those are big problems that you were looking at. And so I guess one learning [00:21:57] here is, ~uh, ~be close to the heart of what the problems of the company [00:22:00] are, and then, ~uh, ~take them and fix them. But the [00:22:03] question is, how come. Because I think nine out of ten [00:22:06] people who would listen to this either wouldn't have the guts to be [00:22:09] like, okay, let me give it to me because ~I'll, I'll, ~I'll try.
Raul: ~Um, ~obviously it's [00:22:12] scary. ~Uh, ~but then also it's difficult to just fix [00:22:15] these problems. ~What, ~what, what made you confident enough to do [00:22:18] it? Was it maybe That you had all the support, ~uh, ~from [00:22:21] the C level and you were like, ~uh, ~I can just try, I can be a resource [00:22:24] that goes around and does these things. What made you fix [00:22:27] them?
Raul: Maybe you educated yourself a lot. Maybe you were ~just, ~just [00:22:30] naturally good at analyzing problems and coming up with [00:22:33] solutions. And you can toot your own horn here, but maybe you can also [00:22:36] give us a little bit of, ~uh, ~something to grasp for others that they can use [00:22:39] for their careers.
Toni: You know, I think sometimes people are [00:22:42] like worried about taking on those probably going to fail [00:22:45] projects because it can backfire on them and their careers. ~Um, Oh, ~you [00:22:48] know, he fucked that up, you know, maybe we need to let him go. ~Um, ~[00:22:51] but it's also a really [00:22:54] nice way to accelerate.
Toni: Because for example, like with the [00:22:57] SDRs, ~right? Um, ~I was like, Hey, ~I'll, ~I'll take it on, I'll fix it. [00:23:00] But I'm not going to do it as a consultant sitting on the sidelines [00:23:03] and giving some advice. I want to own this thing. [00:23:06] And you know, when I own it, I don't want to lose it again if it works [00:23:09] out. ~Um, ~that was kind of the deal.
Toni: ~Uh, ~so basically what that then [00:23:12] created was my organization was growing and growing, growing. [00:23:15] So for me, there was like a, ~um, ~I feel there [00:23:18] was a pretty good incentive for me actually to figure this out. I [00:23:21] think, ~um, ~that, that's kind of how I was seeing this and, and the, [00:23:24] I didn't see it as, Oh, if I figure this out, I'm going to be [00:23:27] CRO in two years.
Toni: That, that was not the idea, but like. [00:23:30] Hey, I can, ~um, ~I can progress in the organization, help the [00:23:33] organization. There was also a lot of, [00:23:36] I think that they were always, you know, I don't want to, I don't want to [00:23:39] hide this. They were always got some career, ~uh, ~you know, thoughts [00:23:42] behind this and then what's in it for me and blah, blah, blah.
Toni: And I think that's [00:23:45] fair. I think it's okay that people don't fall on their sword and ~like, ~[00:23:48] like, you know, let me help you. ~Um, but, um, ~The other piece was also [00:23:51] just trying to help the organization to survive and kind of thrive and ~kind of ~[00:23:54] get this done, right? I mean, that was a ~big, um, ~big part also of this [00:23:57] thing, which by the way, ~um, ~is a pretty [00:24:00] cohesive force in many organizations [00:24:03] up until Accent.
Toni: Like ~that's ~that's what I've seen ~like ~many times is ~like ~[00:24:06] whether or not this is a good force or not It's like that's [00:24:09] TBD But I could really feel especially with [00:24:12] Falcon when we exited There was just a [00:24:15] collective like ah, okay, ~you know, ~we don't need to shoulder it [00:24:18] anymore But obviously we had to shoulder it ~Right.~
Toni: But it was, [00:24:21] it felt different for everyone. ~Um, ~and, ~um, uh, ~I think that was the other [00:24:24] force that I think kind of ~helped, ~helped propel this. And, ~um, ~you [00:24:27] know, how did I figure these things out? I think I was [00:24:30] lucky. ~Uh, and ~I think I had a really good team around me. ~And I think, um, ~I think I [00:24:33] always try and do this.
Toni: If I don't know ~what this, ~what [00:24:36] the problem is, and I don't know the area so well, I [00:24:39] try and do this first principles kind of [00:24:42] thinking. So for me, it was like, okay, we're not closing deals. [00:24:45] Why aren't we closing deals? ~Uh, ~we looked into the data. Why are we [00:24:48] closing? And I was like, oh, ~Oh, wow, ~we don't have enough [00:24:51] opportunities.
Toni: See if we've, in this quarter, we had more opportunities, we [00:24:54] closed more. This quarter had fewer opportunities, we closed less. [00:24:57] Like, you know, when I say it out loud, it's like, oh, wow, Toni, wow, [00:25:00] you are really a genius here. ~Um, but, uh, ~but that was kind of the [00:25:03] first epiphany, right? Like, ah, okay, wait a minute.
Toni: ~This, ~this revenue [00:25:06] thing is coming from somewhere. It's not just happening out of thin [00:25:09] air. Then, well, where are those opportunities coming from? [00:25:12] Ah, okay, wait a minute. It's kind of what these SDRs are doing. It's [00:25:15] what the marketing guys are doing. Okay. Well, how much are we [00:25:18] paying for each of these things?
Toni: And ~then, you know, ~then we realize ~more and ~more and more, it's like, [00:25:21] oh, fuck. You know, we're doing this all [00:25:24] wrong ~and, and, ~and that kind of level of thinking ~that ~that approach to [00:25:27] it, like this one example here. ~Um, ~that's, ~um, that's a thing ~very [00:25:30] healthy to figure out ~those, um, ~those difficult problems, ~but, ~but ultimately you [00:25:33] need luck and you need to, I, you know, [00:25:36] it wasn't me figuring all of that stuff out.
Toni: It was kind of the [00:25:39] team around me, ~uh, kind of ~getting there. ~Um, and, ~and you need to have that [00:25:42] also in place in order ~to, um, ~to fix some of those issues. It's not going to [00:25:45] be one messiah superstar person. ~That's never, ~that's never going to [00:25:48] happen like that.
Raul: Did you ever run into problems with this, ~uh, ~first [00:25:51] principle approach? Because I know that I'm also [00:25:54] very much about first principles. And, ~um, ~it sounds like this [00:25:57] is something that's very helpful, the way you're putting it. But I've [00:26:00] also seen that you can really get into trouble with that. ~And, uh, especially when it comes to ~At some point you have to [00:26:03] understand that not everyone is like that.
Raul: And so it's sometimes [00:26:06] difficult ~to, ~to Get people to understand where you're coming [00:26:09] from. ~Um, ~obviously this is less of a problem when everything you [00:26:12] touch just turns to gold. You're kind of undeniably [00:26:15] stating your case, but, ~uh, ~has that ever gotten you in trouble [00:26:18] or making it difficult for you ~to, ~to get together with [00:26:21] people?
Toni: ~Um, ~yeah, sure. But I don't think it's the, [00:26:24] I don't think it's the, ~um, ~The first principle is more like, ~um, um, ~[00:26:27] ~um, ~being [00:26:30] overly logical about things.
Raul: [00:26:33] Hmm.
Toni: overly logical about things, whether people are [00:26:36] emotional and, you know, ~I'm, ~I'm, it's not [00:26:39] like I'm on the spectrum, you know, ~I'm not, ~I'm not autistic or something like that.
Toni: ~I kind of, I, you know, ~I see [00:26:42] when people have emotions, I can deal with that. But it's like, ~um, ~you know, [00:26:45] if you are. Hey, this is a business setting. We should all be [00:26:48] rational beings. We're not. ~Um, and, um, ~and that is really something [00:26:51] that for me that became more [00:26:54] of a, ~like, um, ~you can be logically [00:26:57] correct and you can win the argument.
Toni: You can still lose the thing that you [00:27:00] wanted to achieve. ~Right. Um, and, um, ~and I don't want to kind of phrase it like [00:27:03] this, but it comes almost more of a change management aspect, right? I think [00:27:06] number one, you need to come to the right conclusion that you [00:27:09] believe in. But that way you got there [00:27:12] might not be the best way to communicate it to someone else, ~uh, ~[00:27:15] because maybe they're going to be upset about it, or maybe they're going to be against it, [00:27:18] or, ~or, and ~so forth, right?
Toni: So I think those are just two different paths [00:27:21] that you need to take ~in, ~in order to get the result you [00:27:24] want. ~Um, ~but ~I, ~I do believe that for like [00:27:27] actual issues, not, not people, and everything is combined with the [00:27:30] people issue, you could say, but for actual issues, you [00:27:33] will probably need, ~um, ~a more logical approach to try [00:27:36] and resolve the issue.
Toni: You need to have a very [00:27:39] intellectually honest conversation with people around you to figure [00:27:42] this out. ~Um, ~you need to create the environment for everyone to [00:27:45] try and be as logical as possible. [00:27:48] And then once you kind of come to the conclusion that, Oh [00:27:51] shit, ~this, ~this is actually probably ~the, ~the issue here, ~um, ~[00:27:54] executing that, ~um, ~because ~you're, ~you're working through people.
Toni: That [00:27:57] then kind of ~takes a different, ~needs to take a different stance. ~Um, and, um, ~and that's where [00:28:00] change management and communication and all of that and leadership and all of these pieces [00:28:03] come in ~that, um, ~that to a degree have something [00:28:06] to do with logic, but, ~um, are still, ~are still, ~you know, different, ~different aspects need to be kind of [00:28:09] considered there.
Raul: ~Hmm. ~Now, see, looking at the time here a little bit, maybe [00:28:12] actually at some point we will need a continuation of this. ~Um, but, uh, ~[00:28:15] for where we are right now, is there something that you [00:28:18] would go back and actually Do something different, something [00:28:21] major. Do you think that maybe you screwed up, actually?
Raul: [00:28:24] Obviously everything went very well in the end, but, ~um, ~would you [00:28:27] say that, ~uh, ~there was some major decision, or even some [00:28:30] minor one, that you could change, you would change if you could now, or [00:28:33] what would you do
Toni: Yeah, yeah, of course. So, I mean, I think, ~um, ~you know, [00:28:36] I gave this example of like, Oh, we're paying more for marketing than we're [00:28:39] paying for the SDRs and, you know, revenues the other [00:28:42] way around and let's cut marketing. And then basically [00:28:45] that's what we did. ~Um, and I think, ~I think if [00:28:48] you take this, you know, CAC Payback [00:28:51] measurement too seriously, you [00:28:54] gonna make wrong decisions.
Toni: ~Um, ~and the [00:28:57] reason is not everything can be attributed. ~Um, And, um, ~and if it can't [00:29:00] be attributed, you can't put it in the right bucket in your CAC Payback, and then [00:29:03] you get two different, you know, wrong results. [00:29:06] Especially marketing, very difficult to attribute. What you can [00:29:09] attribute easily is, you know, demo requests from [00:29:12] Google and so forth, but you can't attribute, attribute is [00:29:15] this whole brand thing.
Toni: And like, how much did this brand thing help [00:29:18] the SDRs book a meeting ~and, ~and et cetera, et cetera. I mean, the list [00:29:21] goes on, right? ~Um, ~and if. You know, the, [00:29:24] you know, back then basically kind of said like, Hey, no, this is the [00:29:27] religion, CAC Payback is the religion. And that's what we're doing. I [00:29:30] think, ~um, ~our decision to very harshly cut [00:29:33] marketing actually resulted [00:29:36] in, ~uh, ~lower long term growth.
Toni: That's [00:29:39] what I would say. It wasn't like an emergency situation, right? Cause I [00:29:42] think Jason Lemkin ~the other, ~the other day said like, well, cut [00:29:45] sales and you must target this year, cut marketing and you must [00:29:48] target next year. ~Um, ~and kind of, we basically kind of were in that [00:29:51] situation, but you know, when we were getting [00:29:54] better, ~uh, ~financially.
Toni: We [00:29:57] didn't prioritize backmarketing as much. And I think that was a [00:30:00] mistake. ~Um, and, um, uh, ~for example, ~right. ~I'm sure there are plenty of more, [00:30:03] but I'm just saying kind of, that would be one thing where I'm like, ~I, ~I [00:30:06] think ~we probably kind of, ~we probably made a mistake here.
Raul: very, very technical one. ~Uh, ~[00:30:09] one that I can subscribe to as well. ~Um, ~you know, I think maybe [00:30:12] we, we, we put a pause here and we actually think [00:30:15] about maybe continuing this at some point. ~Um, ~and, ~uh, ~[00:30:18] make like a Toni's, ~uh, ~continuation as well because we didn't [00:30:21] even get to the second company and Growblocks yet and [00:30:24] what else there is to come, right?
Toni: No, but also [00:30:27] like, ~um, ~you know, thanks for the interview, Raul. ~Um, ~but let's, [00:30:30] let's. Let's maybe have a long pause before we talk about [00:30:33] me again. I think next time, maybe, you know, talk about you [00:30:36] or something else, but, ~uh, ~thanks, thanks for the opportunity to, to, to share [00:30:39] my story a little bit. And I hope it helped someone, ~uh, ~[00:30:42] figuring out their story right now.
Raul: Thank you, [00:30:45] Toni.
Toni: Wonderful Raul. Thanks everyone for listening. ~Uh, ~feel free to, ~you know, ~[00:30:48] hit like, subscribe, share it ~with your, ~with your parents, with your [00:30:51] colleagues. ~Um, ~we really appreciate it. ~Uh, thanks a bunch of all, and ~thanks everyone else for listening. Bye [00:30:54] bye.