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The Psychedelic Psychologist is a conversational-style podcast hosted by Dr. Ryan Westrum with clients and guests who use talk therapy to integrate Psychedelic experiences for healing and personal transformation. Tune in to hear people’s experiences, breakthroughs and stories of healing addiction, depression, and trauma through Psychedelics. Dr. Ryan Westrum gracefully and empathetically narrates real therapy sessions with people in their most vulnerable and transformational moments.
I would like to invite
you to take a moment
in this moment, offering you the
opportunity to simply do nothing
in our everyday life.
We are called to tasks, to relationships,
to experiences, to obligations
in order to fill the nothingness.
So, with this moment, With your
breath, find the opportunity to
expand in to the nothingness,
allowing the vastness, the
quietude,
to be amplified.
And with this breath, simply continuing to
allow everything to be left on the shelf.
Breathing in to nothing.
Breathing out, expanding, softening,
and ultimately quieting.
Watching yourself tap in to slowing down.
Breathing in and breathing out.
The breath of nothing.
The experience of doing, not doing.
Taking hold of this moment.
To honor yourself,
watching yourself trying
on the art of nothing,
watching it elongate, watching
the nothingness expand.
Feeling the nothingness as a texture,
breathing in and breathing out, allowing
this texture, your texture, to be nothing.
As we move through finding grounding,
finding center, finding breath,
and yet in this moment with your
breath, listening with intentionality
of what you pick up today.
Breath in, mindful acceptance
of tasks, of people, of to dos.
And breath out
of softening into nothing, giving space.
Resting in yourself.
Taking one final breath in,
one final breath out, in,
followed by the exhalation out,
and opening your eyes
when you feel called.
Yeah, man.
Hi, it's Ryan.
Welcome to your weekly dose of the
psychedelic psychologist, where I
invite my guests to share stories
about their psychedelic experiences.
We cover a variety of topics
from overcoming addiction
and severe depression.
Oh my god.
We did it.
We overcame severe depression.
And to find wholeness
and spiritual emergence.
I'm so excited, illuminated and
honored to have my spiritual sister,
the one I steal everything from
in a playful way.
Amy.
Always.
Hi.
How are you coming in today, Ryan?
Extremely playful, probably uncontained.
And we'll see where this goes.
Yeah, I'm right there with you.
So great.
Let's do it.
Part two.
Yeah.
Remarkable spiritual journey
with the connection to medicine,
you, the integration, the
devotion you have to yourself.
I often use the term devotion to yourself.
What, what does that mean when I
say that a new devotion to self?
Well, for me,
I think you're the one that
introduced me to it between you and
What the medicines have taught me.
I don't think I had devotion to
self until I started my psychedelic
experiences with my amazing guide,
who I'm like, fantastic, spectacular,
all the adjectives to describe them.
And you working with our integration and
with self really, I'm a very introspective
person, but what I'm guilty of is.
Devoting myself to others, you
know, or devoting myself to the
Horrible shit that happened to
me throughout my life, instead of
really devoting to myself in the here
and now as a 40 something year old
woman, as a mother, as a student, you
know, back in college in my forties,
like as a peaceful, gentle being to
which I thank you for walking with
me and introducing me to it and it's
uncomfortable, but it's a good discomfort.
It's, it's like a.
So I don't want to say uncomfortable.
It's just like, what, what is this,
you know, getting to know yourself
really objectively stepping out.
So that's for me what it is right now.
Yeah, and I know you and I have talked
so much about the medicine and the
psychedelics and I think we've already
built that foundation But to your point
that discomfort or the disease of being
with oneself And how does one move through
that because I know personally with you
You're very devoted to honesty and truth.
So let's cut to the chase We know
the medicine is there and it's
giving us the lessons and sometimes
lessons What do you in this?
You Life walking with at the moment,
when discomfort comes, when the disease
comes, how do you hold yourself gently?
Well, thank you for this.
And I like the pivot because it's
perfect for part two in that.
Yeah, you start with the
medicines, but guess what?
It's all you, man.
It is all you and what you're
going to do with yourself.
What I choose to do with myself in
relation to my own emotions, feelings
reactions, fears, limitations, you
know, those limiting beliefs, my
connection and relation to others.
I've been blessed with what I'm, I'll
try and find the words to explain it.
I'm just going to close my
eyes and kind of go with it.
Two pathways in my mind of old ways.
So her story and my now story and staying
on the path of my now story versus.
And tapping into new ways of like an
example, I'm a very impulsive person.
I have been my entire life and.
I have, through my work with you,
through my work with myself, sometimes
literally even pushing against
myself, found how to take a beat,
take a beat, like the world is crazy
and everything's hustle and bustle.
But we don't have to be all the time.
So I think making that choice to be
gentle, I want to come back and thank you
for always gentle, safe, gentle, because
that is me even sitting in this chair
right now, just being gentle and even
taking five seconds to respond to one of
your questions instead of blah, right.
You know, or if somebody pisses me
off, like, you know, driving, you want
to fuck you or, you know, it's like.
Oh, maybe they're trying to get to the
hospital because their wife's there.
You just, it's, it's this opening
of, wow, which perspective?
Because I get to choose.
I get to choose how I view things.
I get to choose how things make me feel.
Even sometimes when my nervous
system isn't in agreement.
I have that strength now
to go, you know what?
Okay.
Okay.
Hi nervous system.
You're maybe a little dysregulated,
but let's look at this differently.
Different perspectives.
Yeah.
And when you unpack the now
path, what are you acknowledging?
Was it a path to, to be more open?
Is it a path to be more understanding?
The now path sounds like
it's very compassionate path.
It's nailed it with compassion
and it's compassion for self.
Cause I've always had
compassion for other people.
What's the emotion right now?
Just.
Initially it was a sad feeling and
then instantly shifted to like,
but why cry over spilled milk?
You can do this now.
You have this compassion now.
And that's what matters.
That's the now.
I'm not saying that I should forget
everything that I've experienced in life
because there's lessons and everything.
And some things were great and some shit
isn't fair, but it doesn't define me.
Like the now is what I have.
the most control over.
And for someone like me to feel
safe, control is still part of it.
But is it a healthy control?
Is it, you know, I'm controlling
the nutrients going into my body.
Am I controlling not exercising to death?
Am I giving myself breaks during school?
Right.
Yeah.
And what I love about what you're
saying is you've integrated
your past self though, too.
It's not as if you cast her aside.
And I think that's benchmark you
and I have done quite frequently is.
In a way you're honoring her
quietly and showing her different
perspectives of who you are.
This is going to sound,
people can sit with this.
I sit with this often that past
self, which is still my current self.
Cause it's me and
everything I experienced.
I have so much gratitude.
For even the most gnarly things
because it's given me resilience.
I can see the positives that
have come out of, of negative
situations or behaviors on my part.
Yeah, so we're walking together
and I don't want to lose that past.
I don't, that's where the lessons lie.
That's where love lies.
And so they're holding hands.
I guess that's a good way of putting it.
I so love that.
And what really resonated with me is
the moment you take accountability.
I hear in the present moment now, and
in the past year, compassionately taking
also accountability for who you are,
and that sounds like self love as well.
Yeah, I'm really good at accountability,
I think, but what's shifted is,
My accountability in the past
would have been harsh on myself.
And now it's very forgiving and
it is the compassion you speak of.
Yeah.
Tell me a little bit about,
because we've been on this
journey together and I see you,
it's just, I'm like, okay, the journey
is never ending and it's so exciting.
I'm not again, running around seeing
rainbows and, and, you know, unicorns.
I'm just loving chopping
wood and carrying water.
And I'm so grateful that for that part
of integration is like, cause that's.
That's fucking life, man.
It is life.
That's life.
Yeah.
So, you dig into whatever . You get,
do you get the sense that you're
manifesting something with this?
Because I know we've had that conversation
together about you know, loyalty
to medicine and pace and cadence.
What, what are you acknowledging
within yourself about the cadence
and the pace that you're manifesting?
I listen to it.
I listen to myself and I listen
to when the medicine calls me.
And right now I'm in a space of just
wanting to, it's on the shelf right
now and integration is my focus.
And yeah, it's, it's.
After journeys, things don't just
come in at some kind of pace.
Like, Hey, things show up.
And, and so I think I'll be
integrating for the rest of my life.
Honestly, I think I would be
cheating myself if I wasn't.
And what would you tell someone that is
skeptical of the integration process?
Because I haven't spent a lot of time.
Interrogating the integration
process because I'm so loyal to it.
You bring a really great point up that I
hear often from people is they're like,
Oh, I want to do the session or, Oh, You
mean there's a commitment of four years
or three years or one year or two years?
There's no commitment.
I never am, but I am committed
to your point, integrating
and walking in the world.
What would you say to somebody that
has skepticism or doesn't believe
integration to the point you and I do?
I would say I see you because I
wanted a one and done, even though
I knew that wasn't possible.
So to whoever is hearing me, I see you.
I wanted it.
I was starving for it.
I thought I was going to die
if I didn't get some sort of
massive emergence or relief.
And I can giggle at it now because
what's so rewarding is The step by
step, because then I'm really able
to identify and make friends with
or release, you know, bit by bit.
You can't just macro like
empty everything out.
Like I'm not a sieve.
It doesn't work that way.
And if it did work that way.
How would we evolve?
How would we expand?
How would we grow?
Well, I mean, if everything's just, you're
going to make me quote the grateful dad,
I am, I'm walking you right
into that trap, please.
I'm not doing it.
When life feels like easy street,
there's danger at your door.
Okay.
There you go.
And that's the fucking truth, man.
Like if, if, if, you know, if everything
was all fine and dandy, like, how are
you going to empathize with others?
That's my first question.
As you're laughing at me still, is it
like Jerry behind me going, yeah, with
his one finger down, like, yeah, there
she goes again, how could you empathize
with others if all of your, you know,
if it's all just gone, how can you.
How can you look at, you know, maybe a
challenging situation that you thought
you'd made peace with or put to bed
and it rears its, you know, head again?
Like, how would you be able to approach
it maybe in a different manner?
Like, we have to be able to evolve
and, and pivot, even like you and
I are doing in, in round two here.
Right?
Exactly.
And I think you say something eloquent
to me is the embodiment of it.
If we're just going to stay in the
spiritual realm and then the ethos of
taking on these experiences and not
integrating them into practicality.
Or moving through what's alive in the
system of our body or our emotional
heart or the constructs of our brain.
We're really actually limiting
psychedelic experiences rather
than making them bigger.
If we just take them, it's a
limitation if we don't integrate.
That's also very selfish and very selfish.
I think it's disrespectful
to the medicine.
It's there to, you know, just like your
guide out there, My guide, whoever's
listening, they're walking with you.
Well, so is the medicine, but
you're leading the charge.
And.
Person, , whoever's listening, listener.
You are leading charge.
What does that mean to say that out loud?
How you have it's agency, it's a
rediscovery, it's a new discovery
of like this agency you have.
And it's so big.
It's bigger than you could ever realize.
Like I've been walking through life
thinking like, yeah, I've got agency
and autonomy and all these things.
And then I go on this, you know, I enter
into this beautiful world of psychedelics
and it's like, holy shit, was I limited?
And it's helped me in relation
to self and again, to others.
It's just,
I mean, it's, there's so many
components to all of it, and that's
what excites me about integration.
So to go back to your point,
I really want to encourage
people, like, it's the best part.
And it may not feel that way at first,
because it's confusing and it's new and
it's maybe shit you don't want to look
at or touch or I mean, there's just a
plethora of things that I could list
but it's like once you start making
your way up the mountain and you kind of
look back and you're like This is cool.
Like, I want to stop and take in
the view and like, holy cow, like,
did I plant those flowers that are
growing on the mountainside now?
And like, is that Billy goat over there?
Like waving at me?
I'm obviously I'm speaking in
like Amy terms, but it's highly
beautiful and articulate.
It gets more and more beautiful.
You notice the tiniest rocks
on the path that you're taking.
And we're so blind to that.
So integration just
peels layer after layer.
And it does it people working with you
with integration, follow your lead.
And you always allow us you
never tell us what to do.
So I want to put that out there.
But if people got curious with themselves,
And with you about integration, it's not
just going in one time, sitting down,
like I'm going to integrate one journey
and then peace out, like, okay, no.
Cause I mean, you could do about 17 of
them on one journey and keep on going and
keep discovering and why wouldn't you?
And it starts to feel natural.
You don't have to, at first it's a
little, like I said, it's challenging.
You have to really put
thought and effort into it.
And then all of a sudden.
Just how you entered into this, this cast.
It's, it's like this nothing.
It just happens.
It starts coming up and then you start
to understand like, Okay, yeah, I need
to, I need to talk to Ryan about this
because I can't unpack this myself.
And then there's certain
things like, Should I got this?
I'm excited to bring this to
my next integration session.
And what's that going to connect to?
That's the journey.
I love that.
And I, what I hear in you, in my
translation is it's, it's altitude.
So integration is also acclimatizing
to it's tough at first.
And as it becomes easier, we're
reaping the seeds that we sowed.
And that we developed and then we're
climbing and that's the ease, right?
And so that, that constant
movement and ascending up.
And one of the things I really want
to point, Amy, which was beautiful
is the, again, symbiosis of sometimes
you need a witness in order such
as me as an integration therapist.
And then there's other times
where the magic and the mundane
unpacked and uncovered in you.
And then you are like chewing it on
and digesting it yourself without.
Witness because it's so alive
in your system and then you
bring it to integration.
So it's really a playful turning of sorts.
No, it is.
It is.
And I would like to credit you with,
with your practice and how you create
such a safe space, such a safe space
to come in for, for me to come in.
confused or whatever I'm feeling
and there's no, it's very organic.
It's, it's
not, it's not structured.
Like here's how integration is going
to look for everybody because I have
experience with a therapist that was a
very structured integration therapist.
And I was like, I'm like,
we're all different.
Like it made no sense to me.
And it became extremely frustrating.
And
Sorry, it makes me emotional.
For all the people out
there that don't feel seen,
integrating with you, Ryan, is probably
the most seen I've ever felt in my entire
life, and the most understood, even
when I didn't understand what the fuck
was going on in my mind, in my body.
There was ease from you to not force it
and to feel supported and safe during
the confusion and constantly reminded,
like, you're still, your legs are
getting used to climbing that mountain.
Your lungs are getting used to taking
in that breath and all these cues,
these subtle, gentle, beautiful cues.
That you would provide and knowing
when to stop and take a break
climbing the mountain, because the
mountain isn't just psychedelics.
The mountain is integration.
The mountain is waking up every
day and going to work or going
to school, whatever it is you do,
raising your kids and acclimating
to the elevation, as you would
say, the environment around
us, like, is it getting colder?
Is it getting warmer?
The body and the mind.
And I bow, like, just.
I have so much gratitude, so
much gratitude, symbiotic, and I
can't even imagine like going on
a journey right now because all
I want to do is integrate, right?
I have so much and it's like if you
could, I wish everybody could see
the look on my face because my smile
is probably bigger than it ever has.
It's the devotion once again to
yourself and what I have seen
and I thank you for those words.
And Amy, it's your intuition is amplified.
You've stripped so much away
to illuminate your intuition.
So you know when integration is
important, you know when sessions
are important, and you know when
the nothingness is important.
The ability to breathe and because
nothingness is also just like a workout
needing to recalibrate and recenter.
Well, and I think another thing that
I would like to add is that you're a
naturally, you're an enigma and it's kind
of fucking annoying of how patient you are
as a, as I'm like, are you a human being?
Because I, it's contagious.
I have patients tattooed on my
wrist because I literally did
not have it my entire life.
And then I met you.
And whether I liked it or not,
it was just your, the energy and
back to that symbiotic, you know,
can I, it just, I'm like, wow, I'm
becoming more and more patient.
And so I'm going to loop back around
to people with the integration.
People, we are not allowed time
or space in this society to be
patient, to be slow, to be gentle.
We're forced to rush, even in a
typical, you know, You know, therapeutic
setting, I'm not referring to you.
Let's go with a clinic, whatever, wherever
you go, it's like these benchmarks
are, you got to heal by this certain
point, or if you don't accomplish
this, whether it's work, whether it's
your psyche, we are not gifted that.
And so it's on us as individuals and
as a community to support one another
in allowing that, that patients
and accepting it and, and knowing.
It's worth it.
It's coming.
Patience is the friend of a
devil, which is a friend of mine.
You, you barely leave those snorts
in there because you do them too.
I was going to say my mom would
always say patience is a virtue.
I won't repeat what she would say after
that because I was, it was a little
biased towards women.
Didn't hear you.
Gentleness.
What are you doing to be gentle?
Am giving myself space.
I give myself space.
And sometimes that space from school, like
just, you know, taking a 10 minute break.
The most challenging one is taking
time for myself, not as a mom
or a daughter, just for myself.
What would you say to someone what's
coming up right now that struggles
with giving space and time to self
that doesn't give self love that what's
the language that is the antidote?
Think that's subjective.
But for me, it felt impossible and
it's still ineffable how I can be
sitting in this space and saying
to you what I am about patients,
about this loss of impulsivity and
reactivity that I used to have.
I know it's because I'm conscious of it,
like, the thought of like, rush, right,
or act will pop into my head and then
all of a sudden it's like, but hold on.
Thank you.
That the hold on pops up and I'm
like, I don't know where, well, I
know where the hold on came from.
It's from all the work.
But the hold on does come and the
different perspectives and the,
what, what if I just sleep on it?
That wasn't something for me.
And I sleep on stuff all the time now.
I mean, I was a walking, living,
breathing, hyper anxious.
Let's fucking go.
You know, like I want to fix all
the things and get out and keep.
And now I'm just like, nah, not today.
My body is not in line with
my spirit, my heart, my mind.
So yeah, not today.
I'm just going to that's wisdom aligning
your body, your heart, your mind.
And giving yourself permission to be
tired or be pissed off or be joyful.
Even if everybody around
you isn't like agency
with kindness towards others.
Cause if people around you are
feeling great and you're like,
I'm fucking awesome, that's not
very kind, but you know, yeah.
And also.
Even with sharing something that's
maybe painful for me, I've learned
how to ask others, are they open
and available to receive what I
want to share, positive or negative.
So yeah, checking in.
Yeah, that's a really
fascinating way of looking at it.
Actually taking into consideration
the other person's capacity.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Thank you.
I appreciate continuing to
walk the mountain with you.
And you too.
Very grateful, but not dead.
Grateful alive.
That's what we are.