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Welcome to The Anti-Racism Leadership Institute, where we engage in thoughtful conversations with professors and visionary leaders who are dedicated to dismantling racism in schools and transforming education. Join us as we explore their inspiring journeys, innovative strategies, and impactful initiatives aimed at creating more inclusive, equitable, and anti-racist learning environments. Our podcast is a platform for sharing insights, stories, and actionable ideas that can help shape a brighter, more just future for education. Tune in and be inspired to be a part of the change!
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:36:21
Speaker 1
Welcome to the Anti-Racism Leadership Institute podcast, where we ignite the sparks of change and inspire a world free of racism. This podcast is dedicated to highlighting the most cutting edge anti-racist research in education for the purpose of connecting practitioners to powerful, research based approaches to racial equity. I am your host, Doctor Tracy Benson, and today we invite you on a transformative journey as we delve into the efforts and triumphs of those dedicated fostering racial equity within education.
00:00:36:23 - 00:00:58:12
Speaker 1
Welcome to the Anti-Racism Leadership Institute Research and Practice podcast. Today we have the opportunity to talk with doctor Crystal Harden, Lindsay, Doctor. Harden Lindsay has been a principal. She's been a teacher. She's been an executive director. And now she's our chief program officer here at the Anti-Racism Leadership Institute. Thank you for coming on the show today, Doctor Harden.
00:00:58:12 - 00:00:59:05
Speaker 1
Lindsay.
00:00:59:07 - 00:01:01:21
Speaker 2
Thank you for having me. Excited to jump in.
00:01:01:22 - 00:01:07:07
Speaker 1
So what you were saying, is that you're getting into reflection mode. So yeah. Go ahead.
00:01:07:09 - 00:01:33:21
Speaker 2
So you the year so you start thinking about like what you've learned over the years, especially like the one you're sitting in. And I think this year in general is really pivotal because we're going to be going into new federal administration. And like what that means for the state of education, especially in urban areas. Is it really going to be space where our new president would dismantle the U.S. Department of Education?
00:01:33:23 - 00:02:01:06
Speaker 2
If so, what does that mean for educators across our nation? And so I think that many educators, including myself, I'm in just full reflection of like, who am I today as a school leader? Am I what students need or what what educators need and like? How have I grown and what gaps do I continue to see in myself as well as like in places where kids aren't getting high quality experiences?
00:02:01:06 - 00:02:22:18
Speaker 2
Like where can I fill in that gap? And what does that mean for me? And so I think when I talk to most educators, they're mostly in this space of like reflection, like, what have I done from August to December? And how can I be better from January to June, better for students. So I think like everyone is in that space, right.
00:02:22:18 - 00:02:38:18
Speaker 1
The problem is still here for me. I like to work. Doesn't change whether you're in the state where you can talk about the weather, you not whether you know, you disband the, you know, the federal Department of Education, the work stays the same when you're on the ground. You still got kids. You got to serve like education has to run in this country, you know?
00:02:38:18 - 00:02:54:22
Speaker 1
And so I think there's a amount of like healthy anxiety and an unhealthy anxiety. And I find that folks do get into the unhealthy space are sort of catastrophizing. And every generation is like that. What I find it's funny is like every time, you know, I talk to folks from different generations, they're like, oh, it just changed so much.
00:02:54:22 - 00:03:10:09
Speaker 1
Like, yeah, it's supposed to change, right? You know, we're not supposed to, you know, when I grew up in the 80s, like, I hope school doesn't look like that anymore, right? We're not your real to real film. And right now, on sheets of paper and all that posted, it's supposed to change. And with that, the kids are not going to stay the same.
00:03:10:09 - 00:03:36:05
Speaker 1
And so but the problem, unfortunately, have still presented themselves where kids of color still not receiving the education that they need. And as you say, like, how can we be better, you know, with what we do. Yes. So what's something you learned about like a, sort of a core disposition? There we go. A core leadership disposition, that you have that you typically coach around because we, we support leaders.
00:03:36:07 - 00:03:42:07
Speaker 1
And, how do you reflect back on how you might coach yourself with that disposition when you were a leader?
00:03:42:09 - 00:04:12:10
Speaker 2
I think I underestimated the power in strength, social emotional intelligence as a leader. I think that being more socially aware of who I am in the sea and confident, and why I'm doing the work and ensuring that my commitment is in is to students, not just adult actions. Because oftentimes when I look back, we did all these wonderful things to please adults, but we never there were many cases that you say, I should never say never.
00:04:12:12 - 00:04:38:02
Speaker 2
There were many cases where we prioritize adults. That's but a part of that was like my social emotional intelligence. But how do I balance being an effective leader, ensuring that I'm pushing a vision, but making sure that students are that focal point? I think there were many times where I lost that there will be the minutia of like what was happening around me or what things that seeped into our my building.
00:04:38:04 - 00:05:02:14
Speaker 2
Based on the community and the neighborhood leaders that have social, strong social, emotional intelligence, oftentimes are the people who can galvanize and create that shared vision versus this idea of division. And so something that I continuously work on day after day, just like, how can I become more aware of who I am and also accept the fact that I'm evolving, like who I was yesterday and that today?
00:05:02:14 - 00:05:03:20
Speaker 2
And that's okay too.
00:05:03:22 - 00:05:22:04
Speaker 1
And that which leads us to take a lot of things personally. You know, when faculty does act to act up, right, we think it's about us and we feel failed to reflect on what is it about the environment that we've inherited and the seat that we're in and how, you know, if faculty are going to act, you know, with relation, not just because we're the principal.
00:05:22:06 - 00:05:39:02
Speaker 1
It's nothing to do with our personality. It's nothing to do with our disposition. But, you know, teachers have experiences with administrators and they often imprint that on the administrator. And I, we spend so much time trying to understand who I am. You know, I'm this person trying to sort of prove myself and taking my eye off the goals.
00:05:39:02 - 00:05:57:18
Speaker 1
Right? We definitely had goals. We definitely had a strategy. We definitely had data. You know, data teams and data talked it all. The infrastructure to move student learning. But I think the internal dialog, I just made it so much about me. Yeah. Rather than about, okay, how can I be the best a leader and something that David learns.
00:05:57:18 - 00:06:17:08
Speaker 1
He's my mentor taught me and I talk about all the time. I mean, it's like when you're in a position of leadership or any position for that matter in the job, but especially a leadership like you have to separate your identity from your self-identity, from your identity as a leader. Right? Because if you you know your self identity, like you're awesome, like, what's your identity outside of school?
00:06:17:08 - 00:06:33:00
Speaker 1
Like my father and my husband, you know, I love to play tennis. I think I have a lot of good friends. People see me in a very positive light and people in my close circle, and they keep that sacred to say I'm an awesome person. And when you come into the school building, you're not an awesome leader. Absolutely not.
00:06:33:02 - 00:06:50:15
Speaker 1
Right? No one is fully formed. You are a public learner, and you have to sort of take that disposition even when it's tough. And I find when I'm coaching leaders as well, in my own experience, I put those two identities together, meaning that what the criticism I received as a leader, I took it as a reflection on me personally.
00:06:50:17 - 00:07:12:18
Speaker 1
And I find that's what learned leaders out. That's what brought me out. Right? I took it, I would take it home and ruminate it over, you know, criticism all weekend long. You know, I'm like, wow, you know, that's not true. That's the, you know, know me and you know that that's not place that came me in a good sort of mentally healthy space because I took things so personally and so think it through how I impart this on other leaders.
00:07:12:18 - 00:07:36:02
Speaker 1
Right. Notice I'm falling into this trap like it's not about you. You know, they're not commenting that you're commenting on the position and you need to have, you know, non defensive leadership. You can't be defensive and expected to galvanize folks around the vision because sometimes I still take things personally. I have to you know, you know to step back, breathe right and be like I can still do things better as a leadership coach, right?
00:07:36:03 - 00:07:52:23
Speaker 1
I'm not perfect. Yeah, I don't know it. Oh, you. So what what is what is your biggest challenges in terms of addressing with leaders that you see potential. But what is the barriers you try to help them get out of the way for themselves. What have you learned from the folks that you've been coaching over the past few years?
00:07:53:00 - 00:08:14:01
Speaker 2
You know, one, one of the things that you mentioned that continue to talk to leaders about is like their bias, their biases, but even the ones about themselves. So like when you talk to a leader, I can think of one leader in general who, like, they have these preconceived notions about themselves based on what others have told them, and they have believed it.
00:08:14:03 - 00:08:45:07
Speaker 2
And then they believe that that has become a part of their leadership. An example might be, I'm thinking of a, a leader who, talks about his level of selfishness, like he just wants to shine according to what other people have told him about himself and things like. So I constantly think about that. Like I think about like an I sharing, the spotlight when something good happens and my sharing it in my moving in a way that is reflective of like a selfless servant leader.
00:08:45:07 - 00:09:03:02
Speaker 2
I want to be a servant leader who consistently says that. But in the same breath he says, but I know unselfish. So like, tell me more about that. Well, I've been told that my whole life, you know, as a kid and, you know, even that he talked, he told me about a story when he was in college and he's like.
00:09:03:07 - 00:09:22:20
Speaker 2
And I guess I just have like, I'm owning it. And I say, well, what do you have to. He's like, and it might show up in leadership like this and like that. So like this idea of like mental models where people have told you things about yourself and they believe in and you believe like you are married to it, like you're going to be this forever.
00:09:22:22 - 00:09:37:01
Speaker 2
So this negative concept about your personality, sort of like what you just just describe it like now it's a part of your leadership in it. Jesse. So like how do you begin to think about who you are in a more adaptive way?
00:09:37:03 - 00:09:53:03
Speaker 1
Interesting, because I you know, we hear that, you know, you got to bring your full self. You got to be your your authentic self in leadership. Right. Or it's going to show either way. Right. But being your authentic self and recognizing your strengths and weaknesses is a part of being a leader. Yeah, I remember in my case, right.
00:09:53:05 - 00:10:07:19
Speaker 1
This goes along with what you talking about. In my case at the time. So I, I became a principal at 32, and I had never been a high school. I never been in a high school, you know, outside of the time I went to high school. Right. So I'm an elementary school teacher, right? That's my trade.
00:10:07:19 - 00:10:21:18
Speaker 1
You know, I'm a fourth grade teacher who happened to get a job in a middle school. You know, my first full time AP job was in a middle school, and I only worked in that job for 18 months until I got pushed up to the high school. Right? I mean, we did a lot of perfect things at the middle school.
00:10:21:18 - 00:10:40:23
Speaker 1
I think that's why they're like, all right, well, this high school needs some work. And I'm like, I'm an elementary school teacher, right? And so I was very far my worst suit every day. You know, I was very I had concrete agendas, you know, try to really squeeze out wasted time at classroom observations. You know, I was trying to be what I thought to be a professional principal.
00:10:41:01 - 00:11:00:13
Speaker 1
And, we made a lot of great progress. And I also know that I'm not the greatest people person. That's not my Myers-Briggs, right? I'm not trying to, you know, come to your classroom and talk to you about your family, right? That's just not my personality. Right? I worked on that. You know, being encouraging. But when I left a position, I did a leadership 360.
00:11:00:15 - 00:11:19:07
Speaker 1
And on my leadership 360, I was, you know, it was pretty even around the, you know, around they give you all these different, characteristics that you strong on your weak on. But there was one characteristic that I scored in the 99th percentile according to my staff. So at least at 360, it's when you give surveys to, you know, people who work with you.
00:11:19:07 - 00:11:44:12
Speaker 1
So I gave a survey to teachers, to administrators who work with me to, support staff. So I think I had around like 60 people who took the survey and gave you my profile and across the board, you know, I scored in 99th percentile with all of them, 90th percentile with distance. And what, within the comments were folks continue like, you know, we knew you as a principal, but we didn't get to know the real you.
00:11:44:14 - 00:12:10:05
Speaker 1
Right? You can't call people people. Mr.. And Mrs.. You're very formal. You know, when you came to social events, you would stay for like ten minutes and you were good while you were there, but we wanted to see the real you. And I've accepted that, you know, that that's a part of my personality. But I'm not really trying to be buddy buddy with folks, especially when it comes to kids like I can be buddy buddy with kids I love kids, and for educators, we got a job to do, right?
00:12:10:06 - 00:12:24:17
Speaker 1
I do see it as a growth area that I need to work on, and it's that level of acceptance that, you know what I can't change? This is my authentic me. So what do you think about that when you know, you even talk about that, that situation where, you know, he's calling himself selfish, which is kind of a pejorative term.
00:12:24:17 - 00:12:44:11
Speaker 1
I don't think I want to be selfish, but between acceptance, that's that's me. And I'm going to work with my strengths and sort of acknowledge my weaknesses to our is it something that, you know, folks should focus? Should I be more, you know, social, you know, buddy, buddy, I don't know, I'm looking for your what you think about that?
00:12:44:13 - 00:13:11:14
Speaker 2
I think that there's balance. And I don't think anything is concrete except like your physical appearance. In some cases, that's not even concrete. And so, like, he may be selfish. He may have been a selfish college student. That does not mean that he'll be a selfish leader like today does not equal tomorrow. And I think what happens is we get caught up in this idea that this is who we are, this is who we will always be.
00:13:11:16 - 00:13:37:12
Speaker 2
But that's not true. As it relates to descriptors about personalities, I believe people change. I think that everything is about choice. I can be dismissed at home, at school, with my me. And I think what has happened to me, what has happened over time, is that I use dismissiveness as a coping mechanism. So. So that I'm not totally overwhelmed by what you hear.
00:13:37:12 - 00:13:57:13
Speaker 2
People talk about being empathic. I can now be because I'm not taking all that in everything you shared. I'm not taking that in like it. I have to let some of this roll off my shoulders. Right? And so while I know that I can be dismissive, one of the things that I always think about as we think about flexion and becoming my best self is like, how did I get like that?
00:13:57:15 - 00:14:23:05
Speaker 2
Is it something that serves me sometimes? And I would say yes, in leadership, like if you take in every single thing and everything is on fire, every time someone brings it to you, that's how you develop those high levels of stress and you become sick at work and then you ultimately hate your job. But if you find a happy balance to whatever that characteristic is, you can then use it for good.
00:14:23:11 - 00:14:43:01
Speaker 2
So like even this, this leader who said, like, I'm selfish, I'm like, well, tell me more about that. And as he began to talk, I wasn't getting selfish. I was getting more self-aware. Like, he knows when someone is getting overrun and he's not afraid to let you know early enough that, like, this is not going to work.
00:14:43:04 - 00:15:08:11
Speaker 2
So if you are dismissive and you like living that, so you work hard to be more dismissive in some cases, this is who I am versus when is it good to use this, that this makes sense in this context, and understanding that every context is different and in life you have to find balance. So we all have, what I would say when people call as the gift in the curse and it could be an A descriptor.
00:15:08:11 - 00:15:32:23
Speaker 2
So like my dismissiveness right, is a gift. When I'm in a high stress situation, I am not about to be stressed out, fallen out because someone else has fallen out. I'm really good under pressure, which is a part of that dismissiveness. It shows up right. But the other side to that is when someone needs my ear. I need to be able to listen and take in what they're saying, and there has to be balance.
00:15:33:01 - 00:15:54:13
Speaker 2
But if you go too far on either side of the coin, it can be dangerous being okay with the flexibility and personality and emotionality. Like your emotions can show up in different ways and they can serve you in some cases, and sometimes it can be a hindrance. How do you find that balance and acknowledgment? And being self-aware I believe, is half the battle.
00:15:54:15 - 00:15:57:06
Speaker 2
So that is how I see that.
00:15:57:07 - 00:16:21:11
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, I agree. Right. And you talk about contextual, you know, that said, you know, when you're you're sort of your tendencies as a leader start to get in the way of your leadership. And you say, right, that in one context, being dismissive, it allows you to exist in a very stressful environment. Right, that you're not going to just do all that and change into another kind of when someone's actually coming to you, they need to be heard and it doesn't serve you well.
00:16:21:11 - 00:16:42:08
Speaker 1
I hear that, and I think, you know, and sort of reflect on what you just said about my distance is that maybe I'm not the greatest about getting out there and get into classrooms. You know, at times the teachers have to sit down and chit chat, right? And, you know, maybe there are settings where I needed to sort of activate my, ability to for people to get to know me so they can trust me.
00:16:42:10 - 00:17:08:01
Speaker 1
Yeah. So I'm it that they're my best interest. And so choosing strategic times to do that, which I didn't do. So talking about I want to sort of talk about three things. And I don't know which order you want to discuss these, but one thing is conflict avoidance. You know, that's, that has been something where the most talented, intelligent, strong leaders I find myself currently coming back to conflict of coherence.
00:17:08:03 - 00:17:30:10
Speaker 1
Right. I, want to talk about, you know, accountability, which often goes hand-in-hand with conflict avoidance. And the third thing I want to talk about is how I said this before about how to be, you know, sort of hold us up as much as we can in the area of non defensiveness. Right? Because I think that's what provides the most discord with people is when leaders get defensive.
00:17:30:10 - 00:17:47:06
Speaker 1
Right. And I remember like, you know, when I was young, trying to do the best I could and I took things very personally. So I got very defensive often and that really didn't push forward. A lot of the discussion people thought, shut down folks then. All right. You know, he's just not flexible. You know, I wasn't saying that.
00:17:47:06 - 00:18:08:05
Speaker 1
I was saying the way you said it made me defensive. But I realizing that as a leader, they can't make me defensive, that I the way I interpret what they're saying, I take it personally and then I get defensive, which then shuts down the conversation. And so wherever you want to take it, you know, Catholic avoidance, accountability, non defensiveness, you know, what are your thoughts around these attributes of a leader.
00:18:08:07 - 00:18:34:09
Speaker 2
Less careful conflict avoidance. Let's tackle that one. I think you know the biggest ease with conflict avoidance is people have a fear. Fear of failure. So most times I believe people avoid conflict because they are afraid that they're going to say or do something wrong versus, you know, this idea of, I'm going to approach this and I'm hoping that I learn something.
00:18:34:14 - 00:18:53:00
Speaker 2
They don't approach it in a way where they're curious. So like, I want to understand, but you have to address it. You have to go through it. And then last but not least, of course, once you get to that place, you figure out that you don't have to love all your colleagues, but you do have to respect them.
00:18:53:00 - 00:19:20:08
Speaker 2
And now you guys can perform at a high level. But without going through those three pieces, the storming, norming and then performing, oftentimes people are stuck in the storming. And instead of working through, you know, to understand in someone else's perspective what to go and carries, they lose people along the way, which also stifles, stifles momentum. For even people who have the best intentions and who, like, really believe in the leader.
00:19:20:13 - 00:19:48:16
Speaker 2
Once they see those people just dropping off and there's no sense of understanding or curiosity is still changes the morale in the culture of the organization. So being okay with going through those three phases will help you when it comes to confronting, it confronting like anything happening in your environment. And you can then create a culture where all people can feel like they can speak up and that becomes your norm, that becomes your culture.
00:19:48:18 - 00:20:06:08
Speaker 1
Right? No. And and I can relate with that because I've been coaching this superintendent for years at this point. And she came back from a sort of threshold of alignment with another, another superintendent was at. And she's like, I think I want to adopt a phrase, we're going to have an intolerance for failure. I was like, oh, tell me more.
00:20:06:10 - 00:20:30:17
Speaker 1
And so entered school district. She has a, you know, a K-12 district. So elementary school, middle schools, high schools. And her failure rates were really high. I mean, that's not not like, you know, 90%, but too high for for comfort in the middle school and especially in the high schools, right, especially with Latino students. And so she's like, you know, we need to sort of capture this in a phrase to have an intolerance for failure.
00:20:30:17 - 00:20:49:08
Speaker 1
Right? Because right now, I think folks are too accepting that we have 30% of Latino boys failing every semester at the middle school level, that that's not okay. Right? So we need to sort of put out verbiage free phraseology that lets us know that this is not okay, and we want to have an intolerance revealed. She has Super Jazz hyped about it.
00:20:49:13 - 00:21:05:04
Speaker 1
We're talking about like, all right, all right. We've got to introduce this at the next meeting. Fantastic. She came back a month later. She's like, you know what, I don't know if I can say that. I was like, why is that right? And this is the conflict avoidance piece, right? Is that it's going to throw them in the storming.
00:21:05:06 - 00:21:33:03
Speaker 1
Right. What does it mean to have an intolerance for failure? Are people going to be like, oh, it's impossible. Like, you know, that's an impossible feat. We can't have 100 of the students passed. Like, you're asking too much of us. We have too much on a plate, you know? You know, that's probably what's going to happen in terms of, say, intolerance or failure and then setting that that bar for accountability because we can't get to the accountability piece without, you know, without, you know, engaging in the, in the perceived conflict, right, because it's going to produce conflict.
00:21:33:03 - 00:21:51:05
Speaker 1
But that's going to then throw in the necessary space of storming. Right. And so we came back after a couple of meetings. This didn't happen right away. I was like, all right, let's come back and actually work through what what this would mean. And how are you going to explain it? Right. Intolerance for failure means not that we have to have 100% passing rates every quarter.
00:21:51:05 - 00:22:09:18
Speaker 1
That'd be great if it could happen. But you're not going to go from a 3% failure rate to a 100% passing rate. This figure happens, right? But what's reasonable, what's reasonable? And so in order to get her comfortable with reasonableness, we actually took out the data like, all right, who's failing? How bad are they feeling? You know what their attendance rates where their behavior patterns.
00:22:09:18 - 00:22:27:19
Speaker 1
Right. Which students are failing 1 or 2 classes. Right. And so we sort of crunched the numbers and they said, okay, if these, you know, this percentage of students, we got them over the finish line with a C or above. And not that these students are failing our throwaway students, but these are students we have, like, you know, chronic absences.
00:22:27:21 - 00:22:55:10
Speaker 1
They have, like, really intense behavior issues that academically, they don't have an academic history of, of achieving at grade level. So we can't necessarily expect them to be, you know, fully passing every quarter. So once we took out the ones that are reasonable, it's like, all right, intolerance or failure, it looks like. So going from 30% in this particular school to 10%, because that means this 20% of students should not be on the failure list, because these are the attributes they have.
00:22:55:10 - 00:23:10:18
Speaker 1
You know, we can push. So when she did introduce it to the principals, the response was a lot different. When she could explain it, it did go to the storming period where they're you know, they can. And I agree that, folks, when you hear something that's jarring to you, you can be in a space. You're like, oh my goodness, I don't know how we're going to do this.
00:23:10:21 - 00:23:26:00
Speaker 1
You can sort of just do the emotional release. You can you can be there. Yeah. And I was like, but the Tracy, you can't allow them. I'm talking about me. Tracy. You can't allow them to stay there. You can be there. Let's let's just be in this emotional space and but you can't allow them to stay there.
00:23:26:02 - 00:23:43:07
Speaker 1
And so, once the, the, chief, once the superintendent, then, you know, brought the conversation up, defined it. Then during a storming period, there was a collective sense, like, all right, how are we going to do this after we did the emotional release? Like, all right, how are we going to make this happen? Which is awesome.
00:23:43:09 - 00:24:00:19
Speaker 1
Now, folks got into the thinking thing like, yes, intelligence failure. Yes, we need to have a bar and we need to be able to explain it to our teachers so they can go through their own storming period once a year, and they create new levels of accountability. And so now they're moving the bar because they've come through that process now they've collectively agreed on accountability.
00:24:00:23 - 00:24:14:14
Speaker 1
So it's not just top down. It's like this. We are going to hold yourself accountable for, the each other accountable for. And so I think without the ability to engage in conflict, setting that collective accountability becomes very, very difficult, as you say.
00:24:14:16 - 00:24:34:00
Speaker 2
That's right. That's the norming piece. So now that they are collectively coming together and say like, hey, this is what it looks like for us now, how do you get it to the next level is like, now you take what you guys have developed collectively and take it to your teachers. Now let's Norm, let's storm this through and let me tell you about the norms we created.
00:24:34:00 - 00:24:51:23
Speaker 2
Let me tell you where we started when the superintendent introduced it to us. This is what it felt like. Does it feel the same to you? Let's go through this. Let's let's hit the bumps in the road. And so then by the time it kind of permeates through the system, they can get to a place where they're performing at a high rate.
00:24:51:23 - 00:25:12:18
Speaker 2
And when they bring in people, when it becomes the norm for them to understand what it means, because anyone can talk to them about it. I always say the tricky part about leadership is like laying out what's really happening and being okay with some people are not like, I'm not down with that. Somebody will tell you like, oh, I, I have to do that, and that's okay.
00:25:12:18 - 00:25:23:08
Speaker 2
But that means that you probably shouldn't be here because this is where we're going. Do you want to go? No. Okay, then let's figure out how to get you off this train and to a train that you're more comfortable with.
00:25:23:09 - 00:25:39:04
Speaker 1
You know, being able to be, courageous practitioner and a reflective practitioner that this is going to be the emotion is going to be a part of it. And we're gonna have to navigate that. And it's okay for folks to feel negative emotions, because that's part of the process to reset. Right? Because it's that sense of loss that that sense of safety.
00:25:39:04 - 00:26:00:12
Speaker 1
Like when when the school district had the 30% failure rate, it was predictable. You know, folks, it's sort of quietly accepted that. And it was something where there was no real it was maybe lip service to it, but no real accountability sort of felt safe. But what feels unsafe is a change that now maybe like, oh my gosh, we never thought we knew it wasn't okay, but we never thought we'd actually have to do something about it.
00:26:00:14 - 00:26:09:01
Speaker 1
Yes, yes. Right. And now there's accountability and there's fear that comes out with folks who are now emotional, like, well, I look like a failure because I can't do it.
00:26:09:03 - 00:26:34:12
Speaker 2
That's right, that's right, that's right. And that's bad because he comes into like, do you believe you can do it? Meaning that adult like as an adult, do I believe that I could truly move the needle? And when you have educators that are not sure if they have what it takes to move the needle, that's also where that emotionality comes at, because they are wrestling with the fact that they want the kids to be successful.
00:26:34:17 - 00:27:03:13
Speaker 2
But I've been doing this for 20 years and 30% the Mach-E's always feel so what is going to happen now? And I've been okay. I've been able to find the radar because I show up because I'm consistent and and, you know, maybe you need to do something different, but I don't know that I can do it. And so then now the insecurities come up and it's the leader's job to kind of temper some of that and kind of build in that effort, that infrastructure that they need to feel successful.
00:27:03:15 - 00:27:19:07
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. And there's that edge where, you know, someone's really afraid. They sort of express it in their emotional about it, that it's always been this way. They try to externalize like, oh, how am I going to change these conditions for the kids outside? That's where folks always go, you know? Well, you know, their home life is this way.
00:27:19:07 - 00:27:37:23
Speaker 1
Well, you know, the last year they didn't perform as well. Well, you know, these excuses to externalize that comes from a place of can I actually make the change? Yes. And that fine line between, yes, I still expect you to make the change. I'll support you through your emotionality and then deciding at some point in time whether they're on that train.
00:27:38:01 - 00:27:55:18
Speaker 1
Yeah, right. Are you trying enough to to move the needle? Are you changing your practice, being reflective? Are you trying to to buy into we can do things differently to support these students in a different way. Or if you're just sort of conforming while I'm around. Right. It's so you have the words like, when I come in, you're doing the teacher action.
00:27:55:18 - 00:28:13:16
Speaker 1
So I never see that you're not actually doing it. And when your data comes out, it's still the same that that tough conversation around that. All right. This is the way we're going and we're not seeing you. You know, we're seeing you sort of you have the words behind it, but you're not seeing the actions. That's right. When I see we're not seeing the outcomes.
00:28:13:18 - 00:28:29:16
Speaker 1
And so we have to engage in another courageous, you know, conversation with conflict around, you know, we have to be, sort of, I think, made in a way that these are the expectations here. And it doesn't sound like, is it a fit for you anymore? What? Can I support you?
00:28:29:18 - 00:28:30:05
Speaker 2
That's it.
00:28:30:05 - 00:28:52:22
Speaker 1
That's wonderful. Wonderful. And so I think the third thing I was talking about was non defensiveness and defensiveness in leadership, which is something where I struggle with all throughout my leadership journey, acknowledge and recognize when I was being defensive. And I think that is that is an invaluable skill in leadership because defensiveness can look it could be a statement we're not talk about, or it could be a question.
00:28:53:03 - 00:29:24:19
Speaker 1
Right? It's still a defensive question. Right. Or it could be a way of taking the conversation and planting in a defensive manner. And so all these iterations of defensiveness, I find, are hinder the ability of a leader to be effective. And a leader can be hypercritical. Whole day with being defensive, defensive against teachers, defensive against students. Right. And how in your in your opinion, how do we strategize, help lead to strategize around being self-aware enough that when their defensive responses, are that they're offensive?
00:29:24:23 - 00:29:32:01
Speaker 1
This is is coming into play. How to get them to pause and really self-reflect before they give a defensive response.
00:29:32:03 - 00:29:56:18
Speaker 2
You know, that's tough because, for me, I think my defensiveness shows up like off camera, if that makes sense. So I can take it all in. And when that person closes, you have a see a cartoon where, like they're taking it, the person is just sitting there, they're calm. There's a meme on the internet that has like the same person sitting and they're like, this is what it looks like on the outside.
00:29:56:19 - 00:30:18:04
Speaker 2
And the person is just sitting there saying, yes, yes, that's what on the inside, they're like burning up. They're like jumping out of their skin. And it's the same person. But and so for me, I think a part of how I've been taught to deal with defensiveness is alone, which is not always healthy. So like, I'll take it all in.
00:30:18:04 - 00:30:38:23
Speaker 2
And when the person leaves, I'm like, what is wrong with John? Why would you say that to me? That really upsets me. And so this idea of like, not being defensive, I think is, is tricky because I may not be defensive on the surface, but on the inside I'm still defense, if that makes sense.
00:30:39:23 - 00:31:06:11
Speaker 2
And so I think the best thing to do is to add more about it. Like I think the key to like life and learning and growing is asking more questions like don't respond to just have a response. Instead respond so you can have a deeper understanding. So when someone feels they give you some feedback, like my feedback about being defensive, I will always be in my feelings about it.
00:31:06:13 - 00:31:26:16
Speaker 2
Like why? Because I didn't give you the response you would look for. You were looking for me to get me, you know? But really, that's my defensiveness showing up, right? And my coping strategy is just not to, you know, not to respond in an emotional way. Right? I'm not cut like that. I'm a person who I like my feet on the ground is all I'll say.
00:31:26:16 - 00:31:48:18
Speaker 2
I like to be very, like, steady, right, and neutral. And so a part of it is like working to understand what why this person is saying this. Like, what about that? What about what I said made you feel like I was trying to belittle you? You know, in many cases, I'm thinking back to one particular situation when I was a principal, I had to learn the hard way, like the.
00:31:48:18 - 00:32:12:04
Speaker 2
I just need to understand, like, help me to understand why or what made you do that. So, like, the best example is that, I had teachers when I was a principal when I first started at this one school, and they didn't have a dress code. So teachers would come in, they had on their jeans and like, t shirts and they had rips in there.
00:32:12:04 - 00:32:36:22
Speaker 2
Jay Z, why? Let me tell you this, Doctor Benson, you're going to love this. But we had kids in uniforms wearing a tie and a tucked in shirt and slacks every day, something about this just doesn't feel good to me. So the kids are in tight slacks and buttoned down, but the teachers basically have worn jeans. They look like they go to the beach.
00:32:37:00 - 00:32:57:04
Speaker 2
Oh, this is not cool. Do you guys like this uniform you chose? And then I found out because that was brand new, that the teachers actually picked the uniform for the kids to wear. So you pick this uniform for the kids, wear it, but instead you have your jeans with rips and your tummy showing them little bit, the floral teeny bit, but to me that was way too much, you know?
00:32:57:04 - 00:33:16:13
Speaker 2
And so, you know, this idea, it became that I was just like a tirade about clothes and why do I care so much about. And I was defensive in that I didn't want them to know that I was thinking, how dare you put these kids in these uniforms? They you come in here like this. That's what I was thinking.
00:33:17:13 - 00:33:37:11
Speaker 2
Right. I didn't say that. So I would just. You're not doing that. This is not how we're going to conduct ourselves versus having the conversation. Like how did they get these uniforms like oh it was just the committee. I didn't do that. I just went in straight defensive. This is how this is my school. This is how we're going to do it.
00:33:37:15 - 00:34:09:13
Speaker 2
And it caused me nothing but drama and stress and more people saying it had crazy self out of. And what I learned quickly was that my stance should have been more real, understanding how we got there because I was brand new. So stop making assumptions about what I thought was the case. But more asking questions to understand, not just asking questions for the sake of asking them, or just to respond like you're asking questions that you truly want to understand.
00:34:09:15 - 00:34:15:12
Speaker 2
If you don't do that, you're going to always be defensive, and it's going to be really hard to grow.
00:34:15:14 - 00:34:33:23
Speaker 1
Yeah, I agree, I agree. And that, you know, in terms of asking questions, I think when something hits us emotionally, we don't always consume, assume, positive intent because it hits us emotionally somewhere that we think we feel like we're implicated. Right. Are you commenting on who I am? Okay. Well, and you're not doing it from a positive place.
00:34:33:23 - 00:34:54:22
Speaker 1
I have to admit, I just learned about this because, the concept of psychological safety, one client is doing a lot of stuff on psychological safety, right? I don't know very much about it. You know, I heard the term I don't know what it meant. Right. But since we're involved with the client and that is their umbrella of psychological safety within the organization, I had to start doing some research on, okay, what is what is it, what does it mean?
00:34:55:00 - 00:35:18:14
Speaker 1
And what are the foundational sort of theoretical underpinnings of psychological safety. And one of the theoretical underpinnings is transactional analysis. In analyzing the interactions between individuals. And you just one on one, but also interactions between people within an organization. And what, what, the theory posits is that, you know, there's three states of ego parent, adult, and then there's your child state.
00:35:18:16 - 00:35:42:08
Speaker 1
So we all have these states are function in and within ourselves at any given time. Right. And if two adults are functioning as an adult to adult, that tends to lower the level of defensiveness, right, because we're treating each other as colleagues. But in a hierarchy is in schools where we're a principal, we often get pushed to the role of a parent, meaning you're the boss, and then you have the subordinate here, right?
00:35:42:10 - 00:36:03:12
Speaker 1
We can act as colleagues. That is possible, yes, but when defensive comes into play, we push ourselves up to the role. A parent meeting the boss and the person down to the role of subordinate. And if we're function from this space, you know, we're defensive, they're frustrated because they're not heard. And unless we are able to right the ship and be like, all right, there we go.
00:36:03:18 - 00:36:26:19
Speaker 1
Even though we have different positions, but we still need really colleague, the colleague, because my decisions affect you. And I have to respect that. And often the hierarchy leads us into this space. That way we have a lot of frustration. So I put the impetus on the leader. If you choose to be a leader, it's your responsibility to be non defensive and what I found and I tried this out actually, and it was like wow, that worked.
00:36:26:21 - 00:36:42:11
Speaker 1
But it requires a lot of humility that if someone comes you with a perspective, oh you know you know and if people talk you're ruining our school. You're making it. So these kids, you know, these kids who belong to these standardized classes are now in our honors classes, like, how are you doing? How what what kind of standards that you have.
00:36:42:11 - 00:36:58:16
Speaker 1
You're ruining our school, right. And so I would then get defensive and then go on to explain the theory behind it, like just, you know, I tried to just explain more from a place of defensiveness, like, you just must not be understanding, right? Because we're not going to have these systems of oppression anymore. I be clapping on it.
00:36:58:17 - 00:37:22:22
Speaker 1
You we're not going to have the system oppression anymore, no matter what. Every right. And so either get on board or, you know, there might be other places. Okay. He going off these here, this right. No we're good. That's fine as texture to it. Like we grow people. And so the question that I should have been asking, oh the statement I should have made to lead us into a non offensive conversation is I accept your perspective, right?
00:37:22:22 - 00:37:30:00
Speaker 1
I accept it, I understand it, and that comes from a place like I still have the goal of undoing systems of oppression. But I need you on my team.
00:37:30:02 - 00:37:30:10
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:37:30:11 - 00:37:45:20
Speaker 1
Your your your perspective on me actually. Does it matter? Yeah. What matters is my ability to get you on board with where we're going. And once we give them the opportunity to unlock that. All right. So I accept that. I understand it not now. Where do we go? I try this out a few times. I'm like, that's amazing.
00:37:45:20 - 00:38:01:19
Speaker 1
So I wish I could go back in time and be like, you know, put up a sign in my office that says, you know, remember to always accept a perspective that would have saved so much heartache. Yeah. Right around trying to prove the folks that what I was doing was right. Right. And they need to get on board.
00:38:01:22 - 00:38:12:05
Speaker 1
I accept your perspective because once they start talking, they actually give you information out of better how to better get them on board. Yes. Right. Rather than a confrontation.
00:38:12:07 - 00:38:35:11
Speaker 2
I love that. I mean, I think, for me that thing is just like being socially aware. So like, for you, you said you asked them their perspective. I would just become more socially aware of the fact that I'm not connecting some of my thoughts to student outcomes. I don't want to have to explain this all the time.
00:38:35:11 - 00:38:54:08
Speaker 2
You know, like, I, I just want to do and I want you to trust me to do. But sometimes people need more information. People need to better understand. And so like for me, I'm like, nah, we doing it this way. This makes sense. Like, let's go. We're doing it this way with my social emotional intelligence, and my ego.
00:38:54:08 - 00:39:24:11
Speaker 2
Sometimes will not allow me the space to be like, you know, let me slow down and let me keep my eye on the prize. I was more again committed to the job, getting the job done versus committed to the work of moving students. So, like, I can create, I can go on to really hostile situations. Like my guess is I can go to really hostile situations and create, but once I create calm, how do I then still remain focused on student outcomes?
00:39:24:16 - 00:39:47:20
Speaker 2
And sometimes I would get lost in that. And I play that well. My social emotional intelligence and that social awareness piece. And like being able to bring people along for the ride, like, you know, I'm not doing this by myself. I can't teach everyone kind of thing. But when I've said it, I understand why a teacher might feel like in a defensive mode, because I'm saying, I need you to do this.
00:39:47:20 - 00:40:12:10
Speaker 2
I can't do it by myself versus this is why we're doing it this way. Do you have something to add? How do you feel about it? I didn't have the muscle. I'll say, to do that, I was. I have been placed in environments that seem to be on fire, and they would bring me in to bring the cup, but that calm typically that one is connected to academics and student outcomes.
00:40:12:14 - 00:40:34:01
Speaker 2
Which is why with that one client that we have, I can talk through this idea of compliance versus student outcome, positive student outcomes, because I can I can get that compliance piece down. But now let's talk about how to take these kids to the next level so that we can see long term impacts of what we did with them when they were in our learning institutions.
00:40:34:01 - 00:40:36:13
Speaker 2
And I think that's what we signed up for.
00:40:36:15 - 00:40:55:15
Speaker 1
Wonderful. All the little. All right. And we got two minutes left. I don't want to keep you all day. This has been great. I think, you know, this might be one of our best watch episodes. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Anti-Racism Leadership Institute podcast. Remember, the fight against racism starts with each and every one of us.
00:40:55:17 - 00:41:21:13
Speaker 1
Together, we can create inclusive environments in our schools that celebrate diversity and empower all students. For more information, visit our website at Anti-Racism institute.com and subscribe to our channel. Join us next time as we continue to shine a light on the champions of change. Stay inspired, committed and let's make a difference together.