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A podcast that holds horror to standards horror never agreed to. Hosts Jeremy Whitley, Ben Kahn, Emily Martin and guests watch, read, listen to, and check out movies, tv shows, comics, books, art and anything else from the horror genre and discuss it through a progressive lens. We'll talk feminism in horror, LGBTQ+ issues and representation in horror, racial and social justice in horror, disability and mental health/illness in horror, and the work of female and POC directors, writers, and creators in horror.
We're the podcast horror never agreed to take part in.
Angelheart (Main)
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Emily: [00:00:00] We can talk about this on Blue Sky or whatever you want, ,
Greg: I'm curious and I'm just trying to learn as well.
Emily: yeah, same.
Greg: The whole embroidery world, that's a whole other, like, entire universe. I remember something, someone telling me something about that, that there exists something of a Comicsgate for embroidery and slash knitting or weaving or whatever people.
Ben: sUre there's a podcast for that, but tonight we're a podcast for bad, demonic, incest movies.
Jeremy: Yeah, let's stop talking about racism and start talking about Angel Heart, Jesus Christ.
Jeremy: [00:01:00]
Titles
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Jeremy: Good evening, and welcome to Progressively Horrified, the podcast where we hold horror to progressive standards it never agreed to. Tonight A podcast first. A movie that is still listed as being rated X. It's sexy, it's sweaty, it's real racist, it's angel heart! I am your host, Jeremy Whitley, and with me tonight, I have a panel of cinephiles and cinebites.
Jeremy: First, they're here to challenge the sexy werewolf, sexy vampire binary, my co host Ben Kahn. Ben, how are you tonight?
Ben: Audience, you might be wondering, well, just how racist is racist? Well, hard are racist. Also,
Jeremy: it's antique, like, antique racial slur racism.
Ben: the thing that bothered me the most was really about No, I'm not going to say the most because there's many things in this movie that upset me, but what most consistently upset me in every scene was how much I know that if this movie had come out a year later, [00:02:00] Harry Angel would have been played by Bruce Willis. this is the most Bruce Willis role not played by Bruce Willis, and it's only because this movie came out a year before Die Hard.
Jeremy: Also with us tonight, the cinnamon roll of Cenobites, our co host Emily Martin. How are you tonight, Emily?
Emily: Considering the Bruce Willis question as many of us do, I don't know. Do you think that this movie would be as racist if it was starring Bruce Willis?
Ben: I feel like it could only be as racist or more racist. I don't think that it could have been the less racist.
Joe: I, I feel like Bruce Willis and his family are going through enough right now that we don't, we maybe not hypothetically drag him into a movie he was not
Emily: fair. That's fair. That's fair.
Joe: Let's stick to his own film catalog at least.
Emily: all right. Yeah.
Jeremy: as you're already hearing, we have with us tonight two longtime friends of the podcast and frequent guests, writer editor Joe Corallo and [00:03:00] writer reviewer Greg Silver. Guys, welcome back!
Joe: good to be
Greg: much for having us. Yeah.
Emily: Thank you for being here.
Greg: I do want to note, before I forget, since we're talking about what ifs in terms of who could star in this movie, Robert De Niro, according to what I read was actually first approached to play what would become the Mickey Rourke role, but he wanted to play Satan instead, which, who could blame him?
Emily: Right.
Ben: take that to mean De Niro looked at the schedule and was like, I want the role that sits down and only needs to be on set for two
Greg: yeah,
Jeremy: Well, De Niro was, was lead in a play on Broadway at the same time that they were filming this movie.
Greg: that's wild.
Jeremy: he wanted to be the devil in this so bad that he was like, I will do this while also doing, you know, five, six shows a week and two on Sunday, you know,
Ben: That is wild.
Greg: Jack Nicholson was also considered for the Mickey [00:04:00] Rourke role.
Jeremy: I
Ben: that makes sense because so much of this movie feels like they just watched Chinatown.
Emily: Right. It's very noir.
Joe: Yeah.
Jeremy: yeah, it was remarkable to me because he is in a lot of cases like Jack Nicholson's character from Chinatown, except for Mickey Rourke is not comfortable being ugly, so no matter how many times he gets punched or thrown out or whatever, he comes out of it with no scratches other than like a gash on his hand, like his face stays completely clean throughout the whole movie.
Jeremy: His hair gets a little must and that's it.
Ben: I don't know, when, there's a point where a Mickey Rourke comes in and a baby just starts crying, and I had in my notes, Not the first or last time a baby starts crying at the sight of Mickey Rourke.
Joe: Well, sure.
Jeremy: And this is, and we're talking pre surgery Mickey Rourke, so like, he still, like, looks normal, instead of like, know, he'll have a bunch of surgery to try and look younger and come [00:05:00] out of it looking like the character he is in The Wrestler.
Ben: If you've seen The Wrestler, well,
Jeremy: Yeah,
Jeremy: he's,
Joe: Yeah.
Jeremy: he's still, uh, pretty handsome in this movie, although it's just sort of
Ben: he's got no ass. I don't his ass. His ass was upsetting
Emily: I read, well, the context of the ass was like, just very upsetting.
Jeremy: upsetting ass.
Ben: Well, it started out as statutory rape, and then moved on from there into incest.
Emily: So
Jeremy: Yeah, um,
Emily: escalation of this film in a, in a nutshell,
Jeremy: Let me talk about some of the basics here. This is, uh,
Jeremy: this is directed and co written by Alan Parker, who is a, uh, recently deceased, storied director. He did Evita, he did Angela's Ashes, he did Mississippi Burning he did Pink Floyd's The Wall. He is, Well regarded, has won several Oscars there are several Oscar winning and nominated people in this film [00:06:00] including as we said, or actually, let me also add that, uh, it is based on a, a story by William Hoitzberg who also wrote the story in which Legend is based. so,
Jeremy: he's real into hot devils. Yes, the legend with Tim Curry's the devil
Emily: was barely a story.
Ben: You know, it's just like Tom Cruise and Robin shorts.
Joe: Someone still wrote it, like
Jeremy: as some somebody had to have written it. It happened at some point
Emily: I just like,
Ben: Like, Miami Vice still has a screenwriter credit.
Emily: but like I, for the longest time, I'm, I, I guess I look in. I convinced myself that Legend was just like a vibe that Ridley Scott put together after the unicorn scene in Blade Runner, where he's like, I got this unicorn and I want to have Tom Cruise jump around. Like, that's what I thought.
Ben: is why, you know, unions are important, because, [00:07:00] because of, uh, the Writers Guild, you can't credit your screenplay to vibes. have to put a person.
Emily: Yeah, no, I think if there's a person involved, absolutely. Absolutely.
Ben: And sometimes that person is Alan Smithy.
Emily: I mean,
Jeremy: okay, so let's let's talk about who is in this film we have mentioned as this is a December of Satan we are we did do this one because Yeah, Satan's Ember.
Emily: Satan's number.
Jeremy: we, did watch this one because Robert De Niro plays Louis Cipher.
Ben: Jeff's kiss of
Ben: a name.
Greg: I am so mad at myself as someone who thought he was pretty good at puns. that like I knew he was the devil for a while, but I am so mad at myself for not realizing Louie and Cypher was a pun until the very end of the movie
Greg: when Robert De
Greg: Niro [00:08:00] literally said it like explained it out loud.
Jeremy: part of that is literally that he says, like, Mickey Rourke says his name for some reason, Ciphery, or something like that. And the first time he meets the devil, he's like, no, it's Cipher. And then, like, He doesn't, Mickey Rourke doesn't put it together until the end of the movie and keeps saying it the wrong way throughout the film.
Emily: Yeah, I was also confused, Greg, the first time I, well, I wasn't confused, but I was also like, Louise DeFere, and then I, but I didn't see, like, anyway, yeah, I
Jeremy: mean, it should be noted that Robert De Niro plays the devil in fresh acrylics, I have to say.
Ben: Oh, Robert De Niro's nails very upset me greatly.
Greg: Yeah.
Jeremy: He has recently, I mean, a good portion of this movie takes place in Harlem and I can only assume that's where Robert De Niro got his nails done for this movie because he has spiky acrylics into his nails. We also [00:09:00] have Mickey Rourke playing Harry Angel. Yes, his name is Harold Angel. if Lou Cipher didn't bother you enough,
Jeremy: Harold
Ben: guys catch, uh, where Harry Angel is from?
Jeremy:
Jeremy: I don't remember him saying it more than
Ben: Do they, do they, actually, do they remember to say in the movie where he's from? Every three minutes?
Emily: apparently that's a get out of whatever, like, that is just the excuse for anything. Does that work?
Jeremy: I don't believe in God,
Ben: literally says, I'm an, like, of course I'm an atheist, I'm from Brooklyn.
Jeremy: Yeah, um,
Ben: three minutes he's going around being like, Hey, I'm from Brooklyn over here!
Jeremy: yeah we also have, uh, Lisa Bonet. Playing Epiphany Proudfoot this was her first film role, coming off of just having been on the Cosby show for quite a while at that point. She will be topless in this movie for almost as much time as she [00:10:00] is on screen.
Ben: I did the math. I am sorry to say that Lisa Bonet is 18 when she filmed this movie, and Mickey Rourke is 33.
Emily: That's,
Ben: I didn't like this movie!
Joe: But in, in all fairness they're supposed, they're You're not supposed to like that that happened.
Jeremy: yeah, and that is the, the distance between them that there
Jeremy: should be, at least.
Emily: yeah,
Ben: Yes.
Jeremy: plot specific elements, which we will discuss. It also features Charlotte Rampling, Oscar winner, Charlotte Rampling.
Ben: What if Oedipus Rex was the opposite direction and also film noir?
Jeremy: and I do also feel like it's necessary to mention that, uh, Tootsweet is played by Brownie McGee, which is boy, just a great name. But also, uh, that he does actually, you know, play a good chunk of the soundtrack in this because He's a real, [00:11:00] uh, blues musician, so,
Ben: I was gonna say, Brownie McGee sounds like a better blues name than Tootsweet.
Jeremy: yeah, and I love how they continue to call him, like, at one point he calls him, Harry calls him Mr. Sweet, as if there's any chance Tootsweet is his real name,
Emily: yeah, yeah,
Jeremy: yeah, I understand calling him Toots or, or whatever, but, like, clearly his last name is not Mr. Sweet, um, that's not his government name, um,
Emily: his Christian name, if you will.
Jeremy: I did a quick recap on this and to change things up a little bit, Emily, would you read the recap that I wrote for this movie?
Ben: Ooooooh!
Emily: I am on the spot here.
Jeremy: you were in the document.
Emily: I am in the document. Listen, I told Jeremy the other night, I said, Jeremy, you're in charge of the recap,
Jeremy: yes,
Ben: this is Jeremy just throwing that right back at ya.
Emily: fuck the recap, 1,
Ben: played the Uno reverse card!
Emily: [00:12:00] God, I'm going to the shadow realm, apparently so, let's see what we got here director, writers, stars, recap, this fucking movie. I mean, this fucking movie. Can you believe this fucking movie?
Emily: Honestly,
Ben: No,
Jeremy: that's my whole recap,
Emily: that's your whole recap. Um, do we want to actually say what happens in
Ben: Uh, I mean, here, I'll give you a more detailed recap. Mickey Rourke is Film Noir guy. Robert De Niro is devil and hires Film Noir guy. Film Noir guy does Film Noir, Film Noir, Film Noir. Everyone he Film Noirs dies along the way. Statutory rape, incest. Predictable reveal that Mickey Rourke was guy he was looking for all along.
Jeremy: but
Ben: Niro devil is
Ben: devil.
Jeremy: way. Not like he was the person he was looking for all along. Like Jesus, I was the [00:13:00] guy.
Emily: Yeah, he was,
Emily: it wasn't the friends he made along the way
Ben: Yeah, not not in a Johnny Favorite. Not if like the real Johnny Fa Like, Johnny Favorite is a feeling in your heart. Like No, not
Emily: a feeling in somebody's heart.
Ben: And then at the end, he takes the magical elevator to hell. The end.
Jeremy: so, I mean, just
Ben: How'd I do?
Jeremy: yeah, that's, that's accurate. I, I do want to say that what we discover has happened at the end of this movie is this man who has, he has been going through looking for this guy, Johnny Favorite, who is a singer, who he is hired by a guy named Okay, I have to actually go back here. As we've discussed, Mickey Rourke's character is a film noir PI.
Jeremy: His name is Harold Angel because this movie thinks subtlety is for suckers. Um, he gets hired. By a group, by a pair of lawyers by a law firm[00:14:00] called Winesap and Macintosh, which if you're keeping score are types of apples, um, that are working for a man named Louie Cipher, who he will spell out by the end of the movie.
Jeremy: is just a cool nickname for Lucifer. Also is clearly the devil from the beginning.
Ben: Oh, I mean, can we also talk about how uncomfortably bushy De Niro's beard is?
Emily: I really Like,
Emily: De Niro in this. I like De Niro's outfit. I like his stupid nails. I'm gonna go ahead and say
Emily: it. Be the advocate, if you will,
Ben: like, is that the beard that he then shaved down into the goatee for heat?
Jeremy: I mean, I gotta say, like, that The first time I watched this movie, my takeaway was, Robert De Niro is the devil. Cause he's fucking great. Like, he is Creepy. Any moment that he is on scene is the best moment in this [00:15:00] movie. Unfortunately, he is missing from a good chunk of this movie. He's just the client. He was doing a Broadway play at the same time.
Greg: I counted. He was in four scenes.
Jeremy: Mickey Rourke has an extraordinary skill for lighting matches on nearly anything. He's a very good at it, which means he was meant to be a private detective in a noir film.
Ben: Well, I think it just shows how flammable the 1950s were.
Jeremy: yeah,
Emily: yeah. Or pull those matches. Strike anywhere. Matches, yeah.
Greg: Those buildings probably had asbestos.
Jeremy: So he is hired by this guy, Louie Cipher, to find this guy called Johnny Favorite, who he has a contract with that he wants to enforce because Johnny owes him something upon his death. Johnny does not know if Johnny is dead. Johnny has disappeared somewhere. Very clearly, this is a musician who made a deal with the devil [00:16:00] and is trying to get out of it in some way.
Jeremy: Pretty
Jeremy: easy to figure out from the beginning.
Ben: At all. Very obvious.
Jeremy: Harry is following this path through these various people that are related to this story and as he's doing it, they keep turning out dead. He'll interview somebody, talk to them, step away for five minutes, come back, and the person is dead.
Jeremy: And the movie really wants you to think that it's the devil doing it. And that's not wholly incorrect, but It's much worse than that. so like, Harry tracks down, like, This he's tracking down this woman who used to be Johnny's girlfriend and ends up dragging her back to New Orleans. Turns out she's dead.
Jeremy: And he ends up talking to her daughter, Epiphany, played by Lisa Bonet. He ends up falling around Epiphany and discovering that one, she's a voodoo priestess because of course she is in [00:17:00] this film. She is, spends most of her time at least half topless. And, uh, that she is, she eventually tells her, or tells him that she is Johnny Favourite's daughter and that her mother was also a voodoo priestess that is fine, I
Ben: thing about chickens here that goes nowhere.
Greg: I,
Greg: I'm so glad you brought that up.
Emily: Okay.
Ben: do the chickens go somewhere?
Joe: the whole point that chickens are symbolic of victimization and his fear. He's afraid of chickens because he's afraid of being a victim. And that's why it, you know, and it ties into the voodoo elements of it. I'm not saying it's not problematic, but that's what they're doing is the
Ben: Oh, this movie's depiction of voodoo is very problematic.
Emily: yeah.
Jeremy: thematic aspect, Joe, you're absolutely right. From a story aspect, the fact that this, like, that [00:18:00] chickens keep showing up in this movie the way that snakes show up for Indiana Jones is the funniest fucking thing
Ben: Yes,
Joe: Oh,
Greg: I had the exact
Jeremy: like, chickens! Why did it have to be chickens?
Ben: instead of like, dropping
Ben: into caves, it's like he's just like, driving up to a farm. And
Ben: being like, oh, here we go again.
Emily: It's like the, doves.
Jeremy: is in such a chicken centric mystery right now. There's so few chickens in film noir movies, and somehow he's got all of them.
Emily: They couldn't, do pigeons.
Ben: he deals better with the attack dog than he does the chickens.
Emily: Yeah.
Emily: I really like up top. I just wanna say, okay, we about this movie before we get into the, um, the politics they're in
Jeremy: Well,
Emily: and,
Jeremy: let me, let me, finish talking about what the plot of the movie
Emily: Oh, I thought, sorry, I, I missed
Jeremy: now, uh, so the second time he meets Epiphany, she shows up at his apartment and decides to have wild sex with him. There is [00:19:00] a long sex scene, which is the reason that this movie was originally rated X.
Jeremy: They cut 10 seconds of it to get into the theaters in the first place, but that 10 seconds is back now. So if you wanted to really see Mickey Rourke sort of doing a dolphin motion on a bed over, over Lisa Bonet for a solid five minutes, Hey, this is your movie. there is a lot of blood involved in this scene, though it is unclear where it's coming from.
Jeremy: It's just, I guess, general Blackmagic blood and then, like, he goes off to follow up with some of this other stuff, runs into a guy who, uh, basically lays out the whole thing for him that this guy, who is, the father of Charlotte Rampling's character, who is also into voodoo, helped Johnny Favorite escape by paying off the doctors and disappearing him, he got a new face, he disappeared, and, uh, also he did a whole voodoo thing where he transferred his soul [00:20:00] into another dude's body by cutting his heart out and eating it?
Emily: Yes.
Ben: Yep, he ate it. Yep, that was the implication,
Ben: plus statement. While still beating, mind you, that's how hearts work, I guess.
Jeremy: how he's that bloodthirsty this Johnny favorite. And this guy no wants to tell him all of this because when he sees him, he still just sees Johnny. Because it was Harry the whole time. Harry was a guy that was killed by Johnny and then has his soul put in Johnny's body.
Jeremy: And Johnny conveniently, Made himself forget all of this, uh, shit that he'd done so that he could continue to avoid paying his contract with the devil. At which point we find out that he has actually been doing all the murders. Harry has been murdering everybody under the influence of the devil while
Ben: Well, I don't Harry's caused the amnesia. I think, like, that was the plan in the Well, except then Harry [00:21:00] did actually get drafted for real and then got fucked up in the war. And
Emily: Uh, yeah, I yeah. Well, yeah.
Joe: there, there
Ben: that wasn't part of the plan.
Joe: there now. You know, again, there are a couple of different ways you can approach this and look at what they're doing, and I think it's worth doing because, again, Alan Parker is a well renowned director who's won a ton of awards, and uh, I still like Mississippi Burnings, still a favorite of mine, even Bugsy Malone.
Joe: I love Bugsy Malone for completely different reasons, it's a silly movie, but, I mean, you can look at the movie as He didn't do any of this. The devil did it. And it's a movie about people who, you know, it's about victimization, self victimization, blaming yourself. He's been tricked. And they even allude to that in the beginning when he's like, what, did you just look through the phone book and pick like the first name that, that [00:22:00] came up?
Joe: And that's not necessarily not the case. That the devil is angry that someone tricked him, so he is now tricking someone else to, you know, like, I still need someone to suffer, so I'm going to pick the first name in the phone book. And the way the movie plays out,
Ben: The little Jonah the whale.
Joe: yeah, it is done in a way where it's very feasible because it's like, yeah, when you look at it, if you're like, yeah, this all falls apart, it's like, yeah, it does, because that's not what happened. like, there, you can, I think it is worth potentially looking at it from that point of view, because it's an Alan Parker film, because you have, you know, all of these pretty talented, accomplished, [00:23:00] you know, actors and people involved in it, so, so I think it is worth You know, considering that interpretation as
Greg: Well, in terms of that, I really want to say I was surprised that I disliked this movie because, like, I don't think I had actually ever seen any of Alan Parker's films, but, you know, he's such a legendary director. You've got Robert De Niro at yeah, I guess that was probably, like, what you would consider his prime.
Emily: Looking
Greg: And it was very well reviewed. It's at like 80 something on Rotten Tomatoes.
Greg: Um,
Jeremy: think it was well reviewed later on. I think, at the time, it seemed to have been largely panned.
Joe: Siskel hated it. I watched Siskel's, like, review, and he just, like, rips it apart.
Ben: Cause, like, no For whatever you like about the movie, this is also a movie where they [00:24:00] play as, like, audio caption as, like, narration caption, uh, just lines from the scene that happened 30 seconds prior. in case forgot the exposition and like, our RPG quest marker
Jeremy: I, I, do want to say, just plot wise, there is one more thing that happens, which is after he realizes that he's done all of these things, he also realizes, he also goes back to his hotel room because he realizes that one, Uh, Epiphany Proudfoot, who he had long sex with, is actually his daughter two, that he killed her, three, apparently he killed her by sticking his gun into her vagina and firing,
Ben: Oh,
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: not, not what I was one,
Ben: be scene see well you the scene of him strangling her, so you'd think it'd be, oh, for [00:25:00] in real life he actually did strangle her to death instead of letting go, and no, no, way worse. Way, worse.
Jeremy: says that they found his gun in it. Which is like, several degrees of like, we didn't need that. Like,
Joe: But that was the one death, out of all of them, that devil probably framed him for. Because the way the movie, like, the timeline doesn't make sense
Jeremy: timeline is very strange, because we that they had sex, and then the cops showed up and commented on the fact that she was there, because that is the scene where we get the antique racism. They use the J word is not one you hear too often anymore. Even, like, I live in the South. It's, it's wild.
Ben: Also, how, I, you gotta appreciate how sweaty the overweight cop was in
Joe: Yeah.
Ben: Like, Bruce Willis is sweaty because he woke up from, like, Bruce Willis. [00:26:00] Mickey Rourke is sweaty because he woke up from a nightmare. Fat Cop is sweaty because he is a sweaty man. And evil makes you perspirate.
Emily: Everyone
Jeremy: a large man myself. I cannot imagine being that large and living in New Orleans, like,
Joe: Yeah.
Jeremy: having to, and having a job where I have
Ben: It's Swampy.
Jeremy: what fuck? Like,
Emily: I don't know how anyone lives in humid weather. Like, I don't,
Emily: yeah
Ben: imagine the humidity of that gumbo hut?
Jeremy: oh my god.
Emily: god.
Greg: was thinking
Ben: the big fucking gumbo cauldron.
Jeremy: he a gumbo. He does shove a man's face into gumbo and murder him,
Jeremy: um,
Ben: I to die the record. throw me into the gumbo.
Jeremy: mean, I do have to say, it does get some points for that being the first time I've ever seen that. As a murder weapon,
Ben: by gumbo. More movies. There needs to be like this new genre of New [00:27:00] Orleans horror with like specific deaths by jumbo. Gumbo.
Greg: Well, we could also use like a death by a Jamba Jambalaya,
Emily: mean, if you have acid reflux, then like automatically,
Jeremy: there buddy.
Joe: just thinking of that. Uh, was it the Simpsons, uh, spinoff, uh, showcase with, uh, know, Skinner and
Ben: it's Skinner, where yeah, Skinner in Wakehaven, New Orleans. Yes.
Joe: and Skinner is all like, new Orleans isn't really a party town. uh,
Ben: Good times.
Emily: so I do want to say my little piece here about this movie because like, there are some really cool ideas here. There's a really cool. Story about selling your soul and what that means to avoid responsibility and all this kind of stuff and be hoisted on your own petard and all that kind. But [00:28:00] the unfortunate thing is that the movie doesn't really. Have a way, like, the movie doesn't present these themes very clearly, other than,
Ben: angle really muddies it all, because you spend the whole mo Because the whole idea of what you're saying with, like, a sell your soul to the devil movie is, it's all about being hoisted by your retard, like, trying to cheat the devil and failing. But we spend the whole movie following a guy who doesn't even know that that's what he's doing.
Jeremy: the ultimate twist of the movie is that was my petard. Oh god
Emily: yeah, it's like you're watching this guy be followed by this petard the whole time, and then like, you know, you just never see a shot of his hand on it, but it's always there, and then when it's, when he goes through him, and he's like, oh shit, this was mine, like, it's not really that poignant, so to
Jeremy: Yeah,
Joe: I
Joe: think part of it is the, um, there, part of the plot [00:29:00] gets too convoluted, where get lost in the details, because,
Ben: that's just, like, noir at its worst. That's just, like, I mean, it does that bad I mean, it does that thing that I sometimes really dislike in noir, where, like, it gets so lost in its own plot details that, like, you forget what's going on or why you you're supposed to care about what the protagonist is doing.
Emily: And we have characters come in that are great, you know, like, we have the guy at Coney Island and then like,
Ben: Oh my god, can we talk about the fucking most New York man of all time?
Emily: I loved that guy.
Jeremy: wife
Emily: Yeah, like, those characters were great. But like, the second that we got into Louisiana, it was just like this weird, like,
Jeremy: thing is I have not read the book but I know that the book is set entirely in New York and all the Louisiana stuff was added by or transferred by Alan Parker
Ben: It sounds like Parker wanted to vacation in New [00:30:00] Orleans and wanted the studio to
Greg: what
Emily: about voodoo, I guess.
Jeremy: And I have to say, like, I have this movie on digital video disc, if you guys are familiar,
Jeremy: um, and it has a, a single featurette on it, dislabeled featurette because, uh, yeah like, In the featurette, there's a lot of, like, Alan Parker talking about voodoo as a religion that a lot of people follow in the United States, and, like, just really talking about it in a way that just really sounds like he's talking out of his ass, and, like, it was literally, like, watching this featurette after I finished the movie and made me like the movie less
Emily: Yeah, it sounds I don't know, maybe a little bit fetishy,
Jeremy: Well, I mean,
Jeremy: British director who is, like, really interested in this, like, Black culture in Louisiana and, like, has, like, a distinctly Fetishy [00:31:00] issue here. Like I, not to unfortunately,
Ben: Are you accusing this movie that routinely shows a teenage Lisa Bonet topless is fetishy?
Jeremy: I
Emily: I mean,
Jeremy: I hate to be made by movies to agree with people that I don't like. But I had this discussion with Alicia about the fact that when we watched it, we ended up agreeing with Bill Cosby because Bill Cosby.
Ben: Not a place you ever want
Jeremy: Bill Cosby and Bonet had a falling out over this movie because she was coming off of, like- Cosby is sort of the notoriously of, like, a values person, right?
Jeremy: So, like, you know, he was-
Joe: He does have notorious values. Yeah.
Jeremy: Notorious with, like, Oh, it's important that on the Cosby show we show black people doing professional jobs and being a loving family and not doing things that are stereotypical to black [00:32:00] depiction in Hollywood. And that Lisa Bonet went off and did this movie in which she is a mostly naked voodoo priestess, uh, and that all black people do in this movie, according to Cosby, and he's not wrong, is play music, do voodoo, have sex, and die.
Jeremy: Oh, yeah.
Emily: Yeah, and
Ben: uh,
Emily: the big depiction that I want to talk about
Ben: so that, so now I have a whole nother reason to dislike this movie is that it makes me agree with Bill Cosby on something.
Emily: I mean, broken clock can be right at least once.
Greg: I would, that was one of the reasons I was stoked to see this movie though, is I was like, oh, bill Cosby hated it. It must rule
Ben: Like, gotta say, was Cosby Show still going on when this movie came out?
Greg: much so.
Joe: Yeah.
Ben: having now seen the movie, I kinda get why he'd be like, Why, this definitely isn't great for the show's brand. [00:33:00] I
Emily: well,
Joe: I totally get that. I feel that I also overall did like the movie that much for various reasons, but, you know, I, I do think, like you're saying there, there's that, there's that like, uh, delineation or whatever between like, There's fetishization, there's definitely, you know, stuff that I don't think would fly today and other things, but I never, it never felt like directly, like, derogatory or malicious towards the people.
Joe: It felt like
Ben: will say, if we had gotten a movie where Jennifer Lawrence just fuckin like, Smeared chicken blood all over herself and then fucked a Hemsworth brother. That last Hunger Games movie definitely would have made more money.
Joe: Oh my hundred percent, cause the movie also, [00:34:00] ultimately, despite everything that happens, and there's a lot of stuff that again, I wasn't necessarily thrilled with, I wouldn't have done, I overall didn't like the movie, but it does make it a point. Mickey Rourke, and a lot of people make this point outside this movie, is the worst person to have ever lived.
Emily: Yeah, I mean, I don't think to apologize for the racism or all the, like, the horrible, horrible shit, like, not it's depicting all of this in, like, gruesome detail, you know, there's certainly things that we do not need, like, you know, 10 minute, like, blood incest rape scene,
Ben: I do want to, for as much as I criticized the movie before, I do want to give a shout out to a truly great acting performance. And that is During the blood incest, like, orgy scene, uh, There's one extra in the orgy scene who is just, like, [00:35:00] smashing her tit into a guy's face. Just with everything she's got.
Ben: And I don't know who woman is, but what a champion. Just, just beating a man to death with her own tit.
Emily: I mean, I think that that should happen more often, just in, in general, in, like, you know, fantasy. Just to say, because, you know,
Jeremy: Regular cat of nine tits, you know?
Joe: Yes.
Emily: that was a Go Nagai spinoff series. Now, um,
Jeremy: I'm sure it is.
Emily: I don't think it actually is, but I think that that, that does occur.
Ben: of nine dicks is definitely a weapon someone used to fight with in Golden Kamuy, though.
Emily: Yeah I'm not gonna go into the fantasy RPG fatal, but,
Jeremy: I mean, on the front of what Joe was saying, I think that this movie is well made in a lot of ways. Like, the filming is done very well. The period stuff is really interesting to [00:36:00] me, because I read quite a bit on it. And that it is set, set during the 50s, and so much of the clothing and everything is not just historically accurate, but more historically accurate than these things usually are.
Jeremy: Because these people are not rich people, so they used a lot of stuff that would have been period appropriate to the 40s and 30s, so, like, you know, everybody is dressed in the way they would have dressed, not in, like, the hottest new fashions you know, they really went out of their way for historical accuracy on a lot of the way things look, um, is part of why, like, it is bothersome to me thinking about all the all the pains they went through to get some things right.
Jeremy: That, like, there was very clearly no interest in getting things about voodoo and black culture correct. think a lot about the I mean, when we're talking about this, Killers of the Flower Moon has just come out in the last few weeks.
Greg: Fantastic movie.
Jeremy: yeah, there's a lot of discussion about how Martin [00:37:00] Scorsese went to the Osage people and, Sort of like asked for authenticity reader type notes on things like what kind of stuff should be in there What would you know make it better for them and like this movie clearly didn't have Anything like that.
Jeremy: They were not interested in like really understanding some of the stuff they were building it out of So I feel like it's ultimately like it's ultimately a really beautiful house That's been extremely poorly built like with shit materials you
Joe: But like, of that is
Ben: Well, this is a plot that definitely could have used more understanding and respect for voodoo, but at the end you do end up with an understanding of it that's about on par with the child's play movies.
Greg: Yeah, I, I don't know really anything about voodoo,
Ben: it's not called voodoo, where start!
Greg: I,
Ben: That's not a tack on I didn't mean to I didn't mean to yell, I hope
Greg: no, I, [00:38:00] I, I, I'm
Ben: yelling at you, yelling at the movies.
Greg: Raised my total knowledge of voodoo by zero. I, I like barely even registered with me that like this is supposed to be a voodoo thing because like I feel like they didn't say that for a while, they just kind of assumed that we the viewer would be like, Oh black people in Louisiana doing weird magic equals voodoo, like.
Greg: I had no idea what was going on but, uh, I did want to ask you guys, in terms of, uh, a lot of the more unpleasant parts of this movie it, it kind of has to be compared to Oldboy, right? Like, I, I don't know how many of you have seen Oldboy,
Emily: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-Hmm?
Ben: Look, this movie's definitely in the trinity of fucking your daughter movies alongside Oldboy and Demolition Man.
Greg: oh, I have
Ben: And if you're saying, I don't remember that part of Demolition Man, [00:39:00] fucking start reading between lines.
Greg: oh my god. what
Greg: But, but yeah, like, what, what, is it about, like, this movie that made all that unpleasant stuff, in a horror movie where we're expecting to some degree very unpleasant stuff, like, what made it not work in this movie, but it did work for, well, I can't think of any other
Ben: I what hurts of this movie is that, like, a lot of what, I think that we fell into a lot of the traps that affect, like, bad noir movies.
Emily: I think it was too preoccupied with being noir
Ben: Yeah,
Emily: being like, on topic with the story. Because I feel like if there is a like it, maybe someone can do like a phantom edit of this movie and actually make it make sense because there's. There is something there. And the voodoo thing, yeah, feels [00:40:00] token y and fetish y and it just doesn't, like, if it's all in New York and it's like satanic rituals, then sure, let's keep it with satanic rituals.
Emily: Let's, you know, we don't have to involve voodoo or Vodon or anything, like, that is honestly going to be fetishized in this case because, like, we're in Louisiana and then, you know, people go do, people crazy, you know, or whatever. Like, it's a very outsider, um, view.
Ben: I think there's the elem sorry, oh, sorry, Joe.
Joe: No, no, no. I was going to say I mean, part of it again is really. the convoluted story you're trying to follow. It takes away from the movie for me, and I think some of the other things that are being alluded to being like, wait a minute, okay, so it's New Year's 1942, but then the murder is the year, so the murder was the year at, okay, so it's 1942, and then the murder's the 1943, and then, [00:41:00] okay, so it's shipped up to the, the place, and those.
Joe: Those two other people, who are they? Why do I have to? And then you don't see the guy until like almost the end of the movie and you're like, okay, so I'm waiting for there's this guy. And then, okay, so the doctor and he's a morphine addict. I guess that's important. Oh, he's dead. I, I guess it's not. Okay.
Joe: Why does he killed? And all right. now we're back in Harlem and now we're to other people. Yeah.
Emily: it
Emily: we played an RPG in the wrong order of events, right? Like, we just did the wrong side quest first and now I'm like, I don't know where, I don't know where
Jeremy: Accidentally ended up in the dlc before you finished the game like
Ben: do think it comes back to the noir elements, and Like, like just to compare it to Chinatown, another noir movie with incest that works way better.
Greg: forgot
Ben: I, the main character doesn't do the incest.
Jeremy: incest is overall as negative
Ben: But be [00:42:00] like, think it's so easy for noir to fall into that. Just kind of like, it's so hard to follow and you need to keep track of so much and You're not necessarily invested what's going on wouldn't that's worked well like in something like Chinatown It's done to show like oh the main hero is such a small part of this much larger System and world and he's so small and not only and it's so big not only can he not Change it or confront it.
Ben: He can't even fully understand it and neither can you whereas with this? it's just A weird hard to follow plot that you're not very inves Like, even he's not very invested in it, where he's like, I'm looking for this guy. I don't know, I'm getting paid to. And what are you gonna do when you find him? I don't know!
Ben: and we're not invested. So it's just hard to follow, and then it's [00:43:00] And then it does something like, it starts as statutory rape, and then graduates to incest. It's It's a hat on a hat, and the hats are sex crimes.
Greg: yeah, yeah, no, I'm with you. I, I, I, I love noir. I feel like such an essential part of noir is that the main character has to kind of be a piece of shit but like You know, there's a motivation for him acting like a piece of shit. Like, there's a, you know, there's a clear thing that he's looking for in his life that You know, is now or gone or has never been there and now he, you know, is Humphrey Bogart or whatever, know, he just got Humphrey Bogart disease
Emily: The,
Ben: dame that walked into his life is long haired Robert De Niro.[00:44:00]
Emily: I
Greg: yeah, there was no real femme fatale in this movie, I kept
Jeremy: He has his own femme fatale in this movie,
Emily: Yeah.
Emily: I think, I
Emily: mean, a femme fatale, yeah, that, I mean, that's pretty good. I wish he did more of that, but like, I, Ben, what you said is so on the nose with just the, core issue with this movie, like, you know, not just the hat on the hat, and I'm not talking about the sex crime hat on the hat, but the fact that every hat this movie tries to wear, except for that one, is sort of like, I have a hat, and then it doesn't do anything with it.
Emily: One of the depictions that I really want to talk about is what I mentioned earlier.
Emily: We have all the Louisiana stuff. We have all the voodoo stuff. Not, you know, not stellar in that representation, but then we have this weird situation in Harlem with this priest who's telling everyone that he's God and then he's making everybody, like, carrying [00:45:00] around on a palanquin.
Jeremy: that shit feels, that the thing me that felt most, like, prophetic almost about this movie. That it really, like, it feels like prosperity gospel shit that still happens now. That people are like, yeah,
Jeremy: if if you love me, if I'm you, just give me, uh, I need to have a plane. That's, uh, you know.
Greg: but, but, that, that, but thematically, what did, you know, what did that have to do with the rest of the movie?
Ben: You
Greg: like,
Greg: that's what's so frustrating about it to
Ben: It felt like the preacher in Akira where They're just there, and then you look it up online, it's like, Oh, this person played a larger role in, like, the manga that it tapped in a bunch
Jeremy: Well, I feel like there's a lot of stuff like that that's meant to like point a finger at religion and be like, oh, these guys are just as corrupt as these guys. And, like, that would make sense if fucking Mickey Rourke knew anything about religion in this movie or cared about religion in this [00:46:00] movie.
Jeremy: The fact that they place him as an atheist who knows nothing about the devil or Christianity or voodoo or any of this stuff is just like, that part is like, why? Like,
Emily: yeah,
Ben: Also,
Jeremy: Noir guys need be like, have fallen out of faith, right? Like, know, they had a thing that was good before and it betrayed them.
Jeremy: And now they're like, ah, fuck it. That stuff is bad.
Ben: Ostensibly he has amnesia, but the movie doesn't tell you he has amnesia?
Jeremy: he doesn't ever mention, I don't remember anything about my life before 15 years ago when I came back from the
Ben: No, in
Greg: the
Ben: Brooklyn, I remember my Brooklyn childhood so clearly.
Greg: just gotta say the frequent flashbacks to, you know, that famous I guess it was VE day where like, you know, everybody was celebrating in New York. it almost seems to imply, because we have so other it So little other information [00:47:00] going on here. It almost seems to imply at parts that part of the reason he started to kind of have a downfall was because he felt bad that he couldn't be in the big party. he got discharged from the military early.
Emily: well, the, but that's thing is that, that happens before he goes into the military, like, he kills the, the soldier before he's drafted, and then he forgets about his whole, like, weird shit that, like, he's, he's trying to, um, make this deal for immortality, and then he gets, Fucked up in the war and then that's, is that, am I remembering this wrong?
Emily: Because that's what I thought. Like
Greg: I honestly don't
Joe: It's around it's close, but like, again, this is why I really think that what this movie was probably trying to do was intentionally be over [00:48:00] convoluted, because that's not what's happening, and the devil is just fucking with the first guy he came up to in the phone book. Cause like, that, that makes the most sense.
Joe: That's that's the path where I could like go to sleep tonight, you know, and oh, okay, I can, you know, but,
Greg: I should say that there's a part of me that wonders if I have enjoyed this movie more had I not known that Robert De Niro plays the devil or that the
Ben: can you not know that Robert Niro plays the devil, though? Robert De Niro practically walks through this movie with a big neon sign that's pointed to him going, Ah, the devil!
Greg: like, it's, played like a twist and I wanted to experience that twist, but I knew the twist before the movie even [00:49:00] started.
Ben: Well,
Ben: that's thing, like,
Jeremy: anybody with any, like, media savvy could watch the scene of him eating an egg and
Ben: oh my god, egg
Jeremy: devil,
Greg: The most menacing egg shelling in the history of film and possibly humanity.
Ben: to know how many takes they filmed of that, like, how many times did they make Robert De Niro just bite into and eat half a hard boiled
Jeremy: apparently Robert De Niro was so, like, Eerie and fucking scary in this part that Alan Parker just didn't direct him. Alan Parker just let him do his own thing and, and apparently did not even like to approach him on screen, like when they were
Joe: I,
Greg: I,
Greg: get that.
Joe: But, but also in part of this, because it doesn't make sense is like when he's doing the explanation with him and the lawyer and they're just like, yeah, you know, uh, [00:50:00] to make sure that he was still alive. We'd call this facility once a year to check that he was still there, and then we happened to be in the neighborhood, like, 12 years later?
Joe: Like, you know, like, all these pieces that it's just like, what are you even talking about? Like
Jeremy: Yeah, like. There's a, I feel like if they had just said he was the devil up front, that like, this movie would be better, because like, when he's like trying to mask it through the conversation, even though like you as a, viewer know like immediately, like, this guy's the fucking devil, um. Like, but the fact that they're like, masking it through the conversation, he's like, Oh, I had a contract with this man, you know, where he owed me something on death, and it seems like maybe he's dead and [00:51:00] not fessing up to it.
Jeremy: It's like, what do you mean? That doesn't make any se
Ben: Yeah, I into like, do you not know if he's dead?
Jeremy: But like,
Emily: you know?
Ben: reliant on, like, obituaries in the local papers?
Emily: Oh, got to pick this guy up. Shit.
Jeremy: Yeah, it's like, don't know, there's this certain like, I mean, ultimately what it is, is that I guess, It seems the way they're playing it, and this is a discussion Alicia and I had after watching the movie, is that, like, He only owes the devil his soul if he realizes he owes the devil his soul.
Jeremy: So, like, the devil has to, like, torture him into realizing that he's done these horrible things in order for him to be like, Shit, I sold the devil my soul. And then he owes the devil his soul.
Emily: Well, I think that a lot of that
Jeremy: don't know, it's wild.
Emily: is, I mean, I, it's the double
Emily: playing with him and fucking with him. Like, I feel like that's a big part of it. Now, it doesn't make sense,
Ben: I wish
Jeremy: like, torment is what he does, right?
Ben: I [00:52:00] what we had during this movie was that his wish is still active, like, like the deal he made, so throughout the movie he's just inexplicably getting offered record deals and music that he never
Ben: understands
Greg: have a question about that. There is a scene where we briefly hear, uh, a recording of what supposedly Johnny Perfect. Uh, or Johnny Famous, whatever his name was. Uh,
Jeremy: Johnny Liebling.
Emily: I,
Greg: yeah. Uh,
Ben: great crooner name.
Greg: yeah. Johnny Favorite. And uh, is that Mickey Rourke's singing voice because. That's not what I imagine Mickey Rourke would sound like if he were to sin.
Emily: Well, I think that the Mickey Rourke ness of this character came from Harry Angel and not from Johnny Liebling but I [00:53:00] don't know if that's his it sounded like very, very, just, uh, normal crooning, like it was what's the word I'm looking for? noRmal, everyday, just, like, stock croon music, crooner, you know, like
Ben: Well, I'm either the moon type of dealios.
Emily: yeah, but let's not, I mean, I don't want to,
Ben: Daddy?
Emily: I, I don't want to bring fly me to the moon into this, but,
Ben: Oh, right, Evangelion. Fine, uh, 17.
Ben: When I was 17.
Emily: well, I mean, like,
Joe: Oh, that's a little on the nose for this movie.
Emily: yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, no, got you back. Yeah.
Ben: New York, York. You
Joe: we go.
Emily: Yeah. There we go.
Ben: did it, You saved the podcast.
Joe: Don't think about all the lyrics. It might undo it, but you know, mostly fine, I think. But you [00:54:00] know,
Ben: I'll tell you that. Remember, he's from Brooklyn.
Emily: right.
Jeremy: Keep calm and continue not thinking about the movie Manhattan.
Ben: think about the movie Manhattan.
Emily: I'm just gonna think about Oppenheimer instead. , yeah, like Generic is the word I was looking for.
Greg: Yes,
Emily: Generic critic. Yeah. And I, it's weird because like, you'd think that the fact that this guy was a musician, the music would factor in more. Like we would have, I know we have some music in this movie and it's good,
Greg: there's like one part where he plays a note on a piano.
Emily: yeah. Or like, I don't know, like, I feel it was just all so convoluted that it didn't quite, it didn't commit to any bit enough.
Greg: Yeah.
Emily: Except for, you know, the uncomfortable parts, which, like, on one hand, horror, but, you know, you need something, you need in that sandwich.
Greg: this didn't even really feel like a horror movie [00:55:00] to me. And I don't just mean that in the sense that with the exception of one very upsetting scene that we've discussed multiple times.
Ben: I mean, we do have the scene that was also just a dream sequence where it was like, his hand was just a fucking blood, like, juicy gusher.
Greg: Yeah, I mean, it was gory,
Ben: wasn't horror, but I just liked
Greg: never, never really gave me a sense of dread, you know? Like, I never really felt like they were trying to make me, like, worry about what happens next. They just kind of
Emily: Yeah,
Greg: from situation to situation, and we never really marinate in any of it to be creeped out.
Emily: I can't understand it
Greg: Like, like there, there are gory images in this movie, and it is about the devil, so I understand why people would call it a horror movie, but[00:56:00] it either was marketed as a horror movie when it had no business being marketed as such, or it's like, I know he's a very well respected director, it feels like Alan Parker had never seen a horror movie.
Emily: I mean, I think it was a noir movie, primarily, like,
Greg: Yeah, yeah, and I'm fine with calling it a noir movie. It's bad noir, but, you know, it fits most of the boxes.
Ben: Agreed on that front.
Jeremy: I mean the, toughest about it is it's not even the same level of like tense, not just of a horror movie, but of a normal noir movie. There's at least some point where you have this like feeling of the everything closing in on the main character, of things going wrong, of like there are people who are going to kill him, like
Greg: was
Ben: just has get randomly attacked by, like, fucking Team Rocket and Dog Meowth, like, 20 minutes.[00:57:00]
Jeremy: Oh, I appreciate him walking up to that guy's window, fuckin headbutting him in the face and then slamming his head in the door. Like, that's one way deal somebody following you.
Emily: Yeah.
Joe: I mean, one of the problems I had that's unfair to the movie is I watched The Maltese Falcon on Saturday.
Emily: Oh, no.
Ben: no, that is not fair. Oh, is, that watching a very good noir movie a bad noir movie.
Joe: Yeah, oops.
Emily: this that relies on atmosphere, the, like, climax of the film is telling, like, this movie is all, has all of these images and it's these, like, these themes and these things kind of, like, here and there. And then the mystery is solved by the old guy, like, monologuing, you know, and it wasn't even, like. It's not even about him. This old, this, the guy that like unravels the mystery is, it's just exposition and it's not even the guy, like [00:58:00] if it was Mickey Rourke remembering everything suddenly, you know, but no, it's
Emily: some
Ben: Mickey Rourke putting the pieces together in a way that unlock his memories.
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: together, apparently, in a way that makes him thrash around on the ground and vomit and yell a lot. And like, it just makes the scene harder to understand.
Greg: like, again, I hate the way that whole sequence is presented as a twist,
Emily: Yeah.
Greg: but we've known, like, any Viewer paying them. You could have been on your phone the whole movie and figured out what was going on by this point.
Emily: Yeah. Mm
Greg: and like, again, I have to think of like the old boy ending, like when he, you know, when the main character of that movie has this horrible realization at the end as [00:59:00] very explicitly explained to him by the villain of the movie.
Greg: And there's a specificity to it, there's an immediacy to it, and like, you know, the performance around, like, this horrifying reaction that he has to finding out what he's done, like, we feel it in a very real way in this movie. There's so much wrong that it's hard to like, is Mickey Rourke like screaming and thrashing around just because of, of the sheer weight of, of his realization or because he's about to go to hell, like,
Emily: and he's also been remembering shit from this. A bunch of times during the movie, like, we have a bunch of flashes of the New Year's Eve thing and then, like, the weird zoom on the fan and, like, all these things that don't really come [01:00:00] together until this dude just describes the scene and, you know, and I think that's another difference between with old boy is that, like, with old boy, that there was a there was a cohesion to the pieces.
Emily: That once it was described, it was like, okay, it fits together. And in this case, we have these pieces that, like, the guy just doesn't want to put them together. And like, it doesn't really, you know, no matter how you look at it, you can't say it's denial or anything. Just so confusing. Like, you can't You can't really follow it in a way that when it comes together, it is satisfying.
Emily: And and it's unfortunate because I think that this movie's idea of like this guy who is basically like tracking himself, and he's,
Emily: yeah,
Ben: There's almost kind of cliche about And I can't think of any other examples, but it feels like it would be a cliche of Plot twist, [01:01:00] noir guy is investigating person who turns out to be himself. also it's like, normally there's like, an obsession there, or like, something that like, he thinks is tying them together.
Ben: It
Greg: just so disinterested.
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: investigating like, what turns out to be himself, but also up until then he really doesn't give a shit.
Jeremy: Yeah,
Emily: then he does
Jeremy: man, this Johnny Favorite guy's a real son of a bitch. various points of movie.
Emily: Yeah. But he doing these horrible, horrible things to people, like, even the stuff that he does on screen where, you know, like, stuff the note into Tweet's mouth. Like, that is also really weird because he doesn't seem to give that, like, other than just being racist, he doesn't seem to give that much of a shit about, Johnny
Greg: You know, in a lot of noir movies, like the lead will like rough up a guy and you're kind of like, Oh, well, you know, that's not very nice, [01:02:00] but he's a tough noir guy. That's how he's gotta be. And in this movie, it just felt like, like Harry Angel is just unnecessarily rude.
Emily: Yeah.
Joe: But it's a little further than that because it's like, uh, I'm gonna beat the crap out of you and then, uh, Here's my number if you think of anything, you know. gonna be town for a few days, just give me call, maybe?
Jeremy: a certain
Ben: whole like,
Jeremy: a guy up, at which point you don't give him your phone number and your email
Ben: Aren't we told that, like, gets all his info from just a woman who works at the New York Times, who he just graphically has sex with?
Jeremy: yeah, whose only scene in the movie is her coming in, getting undressed, and info dumping him, and then having sex with him.
Ben: Man, we
Greg: has listed it at in
Ben: invented sexposition. No. Fuckin Angel Heart was doing it decades before. hardcore nudity and fucking, well, getting dispassionate exposition dumped on the [01:03:00] audience.
Emily: Sorry, Game of Thrones. Yeah, that's, cause like, we have seen this, plot of the character who's tracking themselves, and that's Fight Club. But, Fight Club also, I mean, there's a lot of different, there's very many red herrings at Fight Club that make it, like,
Ben: It's very satisfying when all the pieces come together
Emily: yeah.
Joe: Score. It also came out after, and maybe they looked at this as an example of what not to do. Like
Emily: yeah. Also, David Fincher is I mean, Alan Parker, yeah, he's got a lot of Oscars. David Fincher is David Fincher. I mean, he made Alien 3.
Ben: He did make Alien 3.
Emily: Uh,
Emily: no, I mean,
Jeremy: David Fincher is not a knight, and Alan Parker was,
Emily: David Fincher, I don't know if David Fincher can, is he British? I don't think he's British.
Greg: I'm pretty American.
Ben: Look, david fincher was a bird that was turned man by [01:04:00] witchcraft. So let's all just appreciate, you know, how good he is at directing, given that he is a literal bird.
Emily: Wait,
Emily: what?
Jeremy: know a great
Joe: too.
Emily: does really good music videos.
Jeremy: you know fact,
Jeremy: IMDB's feeding me this one. Mediasite Complex chose Lisa Bonet's scene as number 11 of the 15 best topless moments in mainstream horror movies in 2020.
Ben: She was
Greg: the fuck, Complex?
Jeremy: Complex.
Greg: like, not even thinking about the fact that she's 18, because I don't like to think about that, it's just like, the context, if you know the context of the movie, every single topless scene with her is horrifying. I
Jeremy: Yeah, and we were already making this podcast when that article was written, just to put that out there. Just 2020, that article, Complex.
Emily: this isn't CinemaSins? Okay.
Jeremy: is a CinemaSin,
Jeremy: um, but in the more
Emily: [01:05:00] Yeah. But anyway, so, progressive politics?
Ben: Is this movie feminist?
Ben: No.
Emily: not.
Ben: How does this movie handle race? I would argue this is an actively racist movie.
Greg: don't know if it's Like,
Ben: No, no, it's not, no, I, you
Greg: accidentally very racist.
Emily: It
Ben: that's right, no, I am, you're right, you're right, it is too far to call it an actively racist
Greg: I
Ben: Birth of the
Greg: trying to hurt anyone, it just doesn't care
Greg: about,
Ben: supposed to sympathize with n word dropping sweaty
Joe: Well, no. But also, I don't think the guy who I think the next film he directed was Mississippi Burning is someone who genuinely wanted to be a racist person. So,
Jeremy: I think, if anything,
Jeremy: it's still like,
Ben: We should,
Jeremy: still argue that racism, but the particular [01:06:00] racism it is, is a fetishism, rather
Emily: Yes.
Emily: Yeah, that, the
Ben: like, Lisa, Lisa,
Joe: sensitive, it's ignorant and like that. it's a more passive kind of
Ben: Lisa Bonet's character isn't there to be, like, a character. She is meant to, like, titillate the audience, scandalize the audience, and then, like, cathartically, or not even cathartically, but just, like, grotesquely die for the audience.
Emily: Yeah. I mean, the role that she plays in this movie is very similar to the role Oh, gosh. I can't remember the, the actress's name in Jacob's Ladder, but the Tim Robbins the woman that Tim Robbins is involved with in Jacob's Ladder, another movie that's really great with, uh, subtlety.
Emily: I think her name is Jezebel, which I'm like, okay, guys,
Greg: better movie in general, though. I, love
Emily: I love [01:07:00] Jacob's
Ben: I do have to say, actress who spent her life in the most wholesome, like, children's show immediately branches out to a role where she had, where she like, gets shot in the genitals to death? Feels like a joke from a BoJack Horseman episode.
Emily: Yeah, I mean, and that's the thing is that, like, she doesn't play the same character as Jezebel because she is ultimately innocent, you know, like, it would be one thing if she was there and she was, like, placed by the devil to be like, yeah, you got to tempt him.
Ben: I know we're themes and stuff. We didn't talk about the devil eyes. Can we talk about the devil eyes and the craziest fucking moment of the whole movie when the little kid points and has devil
Emily: know, I don't know what the fuck that was about.
Greg: It, was such a bad
Jeremy: that is so cut shifty I dug. Like, it's so
Joe: Yeah.
Greg: and by the way, film technology had [01:08:00] reached the point that you could have good, scary evil eyes, because Thriller, the Thriller video only came out, what, like, two, three years before this movie? So,
Ben: It's literally one shot of De Niro and another shot of the little kid.
Jeremy: cannot
Emily: Can the kid eyes, though?
Jeremy: eyes are not already scarier than those demon eyes.
Emily: they don't, they didn't need it at
Ben: so fucking funny. I laughed so hard both goddamn times. So much more when it was the kid.
Jeremy: I laugh at the kid. Well, I might have laughed in like a horror because this is already the scene where they've revealed that this man slept with his daughter and killed her by shooting her again by putting his gun in her vagina and firing, but apparently her son was there just. hanging out the whole time and also he has demon eyes like
Ben: that's the thing, it's
Jeremy: of a hat on a hat on a hat on a hat[01:09:00]
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: but that's the, it's like, that's what made it so funny to me, is that it is this like, yeah, you shoved, like, your gun into her vagina and shot her to death, like, it's such this horrible, grotesque, depressing, like, just noir crime scene. And then this little kid comes, and then just turns into a monster face.
Ben: It feels like the punchline to an I think you should leave now sketch.
Emily: Yeah.
Joe: Yeah. No, I, uh, it was.
Ben: Yeah, it's like,
Joe: Well, yeah, like just the, the seeing how the kid's face was like there, it was like clearly like, like o like, uh, you know, over the Yeah. It was like, oh God, it was
Emily: It was very bad, bad special effect, bad job.
Jeremy: I will give this movie credit for two moments that like genuinely made me Made me go, ah, when we were looking at it, which is like the moment [01:10:00] where Robert De Niro is eating the egg and salts it and then blows the salt off and Mickey Rourke picks up the salt off the table and throws it over his shoulder.
Jeremy: I was like, it's funny. Cause you're eating with the devil currently, like he's right there. that's, hilarious. Um, and then like, and then the there's. There's a line that Robert De Niro says to him in like the final scene that they have together that I was like That seems like he's quoting something and IMDB sure enough confirmed He says how terrible is wisdom when it brings no profit to the wise which I was like, oh, that's from Oedipus? Okay,
Emily: I'm glad that they did.
Jeremy: sure,
Emily: I'm glad that
Ben: Of course it's from Oedipus!
Greg: I mean, they had to acknowledge it.
Emily: biblical stuff. Yeah.
Jeremy: You got a real light hand at the writing and directing in this movie. I[01:11:00]
Emily: Man.
Jeremy: think Coppola must have watched this before he did Dracula, right? He
Greg: Also a
Emily: more and less, you know,
Jeremy: was like, let me bring kind of subtlety to my film.
Emily: Yes.
Ben: Ah,
Emily: I
Ben: you did a vampire sound.
Emily: Is that vampire for mid?
Ben: So, was this movie feminist? No. this movie handle race well? No. Uh, was this movie queer?
Emily: no.
Jeremy: No. Somehow. Very straight. Except Trevor DeNiro's acrylics. I gotta say.
Emily: I mean,
Jeremy: has to be said.
Emily: gay coded devil is
Emily: still a trope. yoU know, as much as the devil can slay, you know, the gay coded devil, we can talk about
Ben: is, it is great that like, that's the most femme coded Robert De Niro can get is like, nails. [01:12:00] Like, that's
Jeremy: Hey, hold on
Ben: as fem as we can get De
Emily: You had that big ass
Jeremy: Stardust. I know that's not true.
Joe: Yeah, that's that's
Emily: Yeah!
Ben: fair,
Emily: Nice
Jeremy: Stardust, where he is the gay captain of the Sky Pirates,
Ben: that's true, that's true,
Ben: I'm not
Jeremy: but it turns out all of his men already know and accept him.
Emily: mean.
Greg: I've never seen this movie. Yeah, maybe I should.
Ben: Uh, it stars Charlie Cox, like a very pre Daredevil Charlie Cox.
Greg: Okay. I'm into
Emily: on a Neil Gaiman story,
Greg: I love Neil Gaiman.
Emily: yeah.
Joe: I've seen it once I think you probably only need to see it once but
Emily: yeah,
Emily: Yeah. It is very Blah!
Joe: yeah, but
Jeremy: it's really at, like, a willow level, like, of fantasy. Like, it's not amazing, but it is enjoyable several times. Like,
Emily: Okay, I
Emily: would say I
Jeremy: there are things to enjoy about it. There are also, it's very easy to [01:13:00] watch it from the year 2023 and go,
Greg: Maybe I should the book
Emily: Willow and go unless it's the show, but the book is really good. It's, it's all illustrated by Charles Madison. It's gorgeous.
Greg: Yeah, I should just read it anyway.
Joe: yeah. Yeah, I do that.
Emily: Um, although it
Emily: doesn't
Jeremy: it for Robert De Niro's performance as the musical loving gay captain of the Sky Pirates, who
Emily: Yeah,
Joe: doesn't do enough fantasy. So
Jeremy: Yeah,
Emily: yeah, Um,
Jeremy: so, but that's not this movie.
Joe: No
Jeremy: yeah does this movie deal with class? Sure
Joe: Yeah, yeah, for
Jeremy: It doesn't have anything good
Greg: I, I, everyone was just generally poor other than the priest and the devil.
Jeremy: they,
Jeremy: they
Emily: money
Jeremy: there's that scene you're talking about with the priest where it's like, there's maybe something interesting there, but they're, they're too busy moving on to the next scene, [01:14:00] moving next thing that happens in this movie.
Emily: and there is a scene where it not only, you know, it's not only about race, but it's about money and the cops basically just spill it all and say like, look, too sweet died. We don't give a shit. What's her nuts died. She's from old money. Like, now we're bad.
Joe: feel like there's, and I say this mostly joking so, so bear with me, but it's like, I guess there's something to say about at least the worst people to ever exist in this world are cishet white guys.
Emily: Yeah, I mean, yeah,
Joe: like,
Emily: also most in the movie are says that white guys.
Greg: Other
Joe: the worst!
Emily: Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of black characters in the movie. Well, they're not, like, really depicted as characters, though. They're just background characters, like, and they're also, I mean,
Ben: Our best is toot sweets.
Emily: who's a jazz musician in [01:15:00] Louisiana, who also does voodoo.
Jeremy: Who carries a straight razor on him at all times.
Emily: Yeah,
Ben: movie had come out five years later, he also would have skateboarded.
Joe: I mean, he but it's slightly, is it better or worse than like bleeding gums Murphy in the Simpsons? Like,
Emily: think it's par
Emily: with
Joe: I'm trying to get a gauge on that. Yeah. All
Emily: but I, at least,
Greg: I don't know, Bleeding Gums Murphy is depicted as having more of a personality if you watch enough of those episodes. Like, actually has a point of view.
Emily: yes. And he's also meant to be, he's like a tongue in cheek parody Like, is a commentary on that kind of trope.
Jeremy: I want
Ben: They are the same level, though, of, like, caricature, but only Bleeding Gums Murphy is intentionally a caricature.
Emily: there, yeah, exactly.
Greg: even [01:16:00] then, he is a more multidimensional character than Tootsuite.
Emily: Yeah.
Joe: All fair.
Jeremy: I do want to say we do the one rich white guy we get other than our New Orleans gumbo man is, uh, is the
Jeremy: lawyer
Ben: Now that's a
Ben: I that's a superhero movie I would go out to the theaters to see.
Jeremy: yeah, our, uh, our lawyer that's working for De Niro at the beginning, who is, just sort of depicted as like a real scumbag. This movie's got a lot of lawyer jokes up its sleeve, but, uh, this guy is also played by, uh, Law Order SVU's Captain Donald Cragen, you know, uh, Dan Florek, who's, you know, in that, and is in, you may know him from the Flintstones film as Mr Slate.
Emily: I don't remember that, but also apparently Kyle MacLachlan was in that movie.
Joe: and, uh, Halle Berry is in that movie.
Emily: Yeah, which I'm like,[01:17:00] that's, I, I know this is an audio medium, but I made an expression.
Joe: Kyle MacLachlan did the Flintstones movie, like, almost directly after Twin Peaks? There's very little time Yeah.
Emily: right now. Um,
Ben: Well, you can always You can always find out, like It's always easy to piece together. When an actor's show, like, ends, and then immediately after they're in just, like, a whole string of terrible movies, that is where they really financially banked on their show not ending, and then had to cover up the shortfall real fast.
Emily: Mm. Mm hmm.
Emily: I David Lynch
Ben: Timothy Olyphant very public about, like, If you ask Timothy Olyphant, Hey, why were you in the Hitman movie? He will say, Welp, they just cancelled Deadwood, And I'd bought a house.
Jeremy: Yep, so [01:18:00] it's like back to back that, and what is it, Die Hard with a Vengeance,
Ben: Yeah, and no, he would,
Ben: he
Jeremy: free or die hard where he's the bad
Ben: will be straight up Just being like, it's all just because Deadwood got cancelled. No!
Emily: so
Jeremy: guys, do we recommend people watch this movie?
Ben: No
Greg: they're so, I, it's not the worst horror movie I've seen, but there are like literally hundreds of horror movies I'd recommend before this one.
Emily: yes, that's how I feel. I mean, I I don't hate this movie, but exactly
Emily: what he said
Jeremy: I would recommend looking up, like, a YouTube clip edit of Robert De Niro's scenes, just to see him, like, be the devil. Because, like, he's so good. Like,
Ben: Oh yeah, like,
Greg: he's so menacing without being like over the top.
Jeremy: he never
Ben: recommend [01:19:00] a supercut of the De Niro scenes, for sure.
Jeremy: Yeah, the interesting thing to me is he doesn't threaten people and he doesn't lie. Like, he doesn't lie to Angel the whole time. He's just sort of like, slightly obscuring the truth.
Greg: There, there are lives of omission. I mean, he's omitting quite a bit.
Emily: Yeah Also, he does a really great like prophecy esque scene in the church there And I think this movie is very much like the prophecy where like there's a lot of it. You don't need to watch And you just find a super clip of, like, Christopher Walken and Viggo Mortensen in The Prophecy and then, like, watch Robert De Niro in this and then go on AO3 and write your story about how you feel about all those characters.
Jeremy: Right, you're a Satan Satan fanfic?
Emily: Yeah, Satan, Satan, Gabriel.
Jeremy: Yeah, I agree. I don't, I don't really think people need to watch this one. There's definitely things worth seeing in it, but I, I don't think it's quite worth its runtime and [01:20:00] it will leave you more frustrated than probably excited about it.
Joe: There, there are better Alan Parker movies to watch.
Jeremy: yeah, absolutely.
Greg: there are better De Niro movies to watch. Uh,
Jeremy: front, do you guys have recommendations for people for coming off of this
Ben: So, I mentioned it earlier, but if you want to go for neo noir at its best definitely check out Chinatown, starring Jack Nicholson.
Greg: yeah, pretty undeniable.
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: Yeah, I mean, you know. Yeah.
Joe: I was thinking, oddly enough, it's not like, it's not exactly a noir film there, but there is overlap, and it's more of a horror film, and if you think about it, you'll see where I'm going, but John Carpenter's In the Mouth of Madness.
Ben: Ooh.
Emily: Yeah, that's actually good. Yeah,
Greg: I, I, great movie. I, I, I, I'm just really curious to hear, uh, the [01:21:00] connection.
Joe: it's a very sim it's, it's, instead of being a private eye, it's like, ooh, you have to go with this person. Like, we're trying to get a hold of someone, and we don't know, uh, what's going on. No one's seen this person in X amount of time, and they go, and then supernatural stuff happens, and, and things go awray, and, you know, what he thinks is real isn't real anymore, you know, and all that stuff.
Joe: So there's that, like, through line there, but,
Emily: unreli unreliable narrator kind of thing.
Greg: So if you want another movie that kind of blurs the lines between horror and noir But does both of them better, and is actually from 1955. It does not merely take place in 1955. Les Diab I to all French speaking people.
Greg: Les Diaboliques. In some places I think it's just known as Diabolique.
Emily: Yes.
Jeremy: Yeah, in America it's just[01:22:00] titled Diabolique.
Greg: Yeah it holds the fuck up. The tension and drama and suspense is all so tight. And,
Jeremy: The end of that movie did to me what the people making this movie seemed to think it was gonna do to me.
Greg: yes. Yes.
Greg: Uh,
Ben: really thought had something with this movie!
Greg: don't, don't look up the die ball leak ending if, uh, if
Jeremy: Diabolique literally has a still at the end of the movie that says don't fucking tell anybody about this ending.
Greg: Yes. Yeah.
Ben: find you!
Greg: so we're not going to tell you it ends, but
Greg: it ends.
Jeremy: friends, don't tell anybody about how this movie ends. Like, this is pre internet they wrote this shit too. They
Emily: Yeah, yeah,
Greg: yeah,
Jeremy: they like, don't fucking
Greg: wild ending though. Also, there's no incest. You know, a plus. I,
Ben: No [01:23:00] incest!
Greg: it no racism if it's Literally just all white French people.
Emily: It depends on what they say
Greg: I don't think they say anything racist.
Greg: I don't know, it's been a year or two since I've
Jeremy: No more racist than usual, French people.
Joe: It's not more racist than this movie
Greg: No, definitely not more racist than Angel.
Joe: There you go,
Greg: But, but yeah, uh,
Jeremy: that on the poster!
Ben: Less
Jeremy: Greg Silva says, definitely not more racist than Angel Heart. In
Joe: Yeah, there you
Greg: but, no, it, fucking rules. I don't care if you're one of those people who won't watch things in black and white that's not A smart way to live your life.
Jeremy: and a language.
Ben: they put the poster for They Slash Them. Less transphobic than Ace Ventura Pet Detective.
Joe: Is it though?
Emily: That's actually, know, in
Emily: [01:24:00] terms, yeah, okay yeah.
Ben: Yeah.
Ben: Yeah.
Emily: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I'm thinking, like, there's more,
Ben: know what you're saying, but also yeah.
Emily: yeah.
Joe: we're
Joe: doing
Emily: There's a mathematical equation that can, in fact, uh, prove that. Um,
Joe: if you're factoring in the scale of time, it
Ben: seen hate crimes that were less transphobic than Ace Ventura Pet Detective.
Jeremy: is less transphobic than Ventura Pet Detective.
Emily: I,
Ben: but Anywho Rec, did we finish? Sorry if I interrupted anyone's recommendations.
Emily: I
Greg: think you're good.
Emily: I,
Jeremy: Emily,
Jeremy: right?
Emily: I Recommend Jacob's Ladder. That movie
Emily: has better. Similar vibes, more on point. Not as much racism. See, I don't think there's any incest.
Greg: Yeah, I'm pretty sure you're right about
Emily: yeah, I think there's no incest [01:25:00] whatsoever.
Greg: IT actually has stuff to say about racism
Greg: too
Emily: stuff
Ben: Time. A movie that describes both that and Return of the Jedi.
Emily: Yeah, I will say that Jacob's Ladder will destroy you. Like, that's a movie that will destroy you. This movie is, like, even though this movie came out before Jacob's Ladder, like, that movie will take aim and, like, at your angel heart and destroy it. So, you know, just be aware.
Greg: Yeah, that's, I don't think a horror movie has ever made me cry. I cry very rarely at movies. But, Jacob's Ladder is definitely the closest a horror movie has ever gotten me towards tears. one of my absolute favorites. That's like. You know, it's so emotional and I don't know, I'm, I'm, I'm just full of emotion [01:26:00] just remembering that movie now.
Emily: what's also Tim Robbins is so good at being just like the tallest baby that ever existed and like he goes around and he's like, Ooh, look, Tim Robbins. I'm really big and tall, but I'm also very, very cute. And then, you know, all these things are happening to me and I'm just so involved. jUst Wild when you also think about him in high fidelity.
Emily: But
Joe: also wild thinking about, uh, remember when he was in the, that, uh, War of the Worlds remake that came out 18 years ago
Emily: No, I,
Greg: I,
Greg: I, was 15 when I saw it and I loved it then and I have not revisited it since. Um,
Joe: part of that movie. That scene where they get in his, like, hoverboard, like, that's the, that's a really great scene, but yeah,
Emily: I haven't it so long. to forget about it, but yeah. So Jacob Slatter, and also if you wanna see something, it, like [01:27:00] something kind of noir, in Louisiana that's also kind of spooky. There's a true detective, which I've been watching and I'm like, there's some parallels here. I will not elaborate.
Jeremy: Yeah. So if you enjoyed the the sort of noir and Louisiana aspect of this film, and you don't mind the incest, maybe, but you want something with less racism Eaves Bayou is, uh, there, and is Much Much better a
Emily: Oh
Ben: Much better movie. Eve's Bayou.
Jeremy: Yeah, it, you know, just, to take a moment to sort of re center black people in this conversation. that's maybe if you're coming away from this and you're like, What if there was something like this that didn't leave me with huge racist vibes? Eaves Bayou is a good place to go. Got a, you know, largely, if not all, black cast and, uh, you know, black director and, and everything. So, yeah, check that [01:28:00] one out for sure.
Jeremy: If you haven't already, we have talked about it on here. If you love menacing Robert De Niro and you want to see him be menacing in a scary movie that's not this movie, go check out Cape Fear. This is the 1991 Scorsese remake of Cape Fear. In which he is the Max Cady, he is the big scary man, and boy is he menacing.
Jeremy: And it's definitely a movie worth checking out.
Greg: movie I saw in theaters before lockdowns happened. They were screening it. that's
Jeremy: that's a long gap.
Greg: again,
Jeremy: and then there
Jeremy: was COVID.
Greg: was born the year it came out. So, I have been to the movie theater several times since. I don't think my parents took baby me to see in Cape Fear. And if, if you want Gary Robert [01:29:00] Dero, uh, that's a much better place to find it
Jeremy: Yeah. Yeah, I would say that, and I have trouble recommending that movie without also mentioning, if you haven't seen it, one of the great, scary, not particularly horror, but scary movies of all time, especially in the film noir genre, which is Night of the Hunter. It has very similar vibes to Cape Fear. No Robert De Niro, but it does have Robert Mitchum being
Greg: scary.
Jeremy: scary.
Jeremy: If Night of the Hunter doesn't bother you there's something wrong with you.
Greg: Yeah, and you might think, like, oh, it came out in the 50s during, like, the height of the film code, like, how scary it could actually be. They find ways.
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: Yeah, and that's another movie that was apparently at one point rated X by the film code, but like, Night of the Hunters You know, black and white, true, true noir film And yeah, people should definitely check out That [01:30:00] that I think does it for us on the recommendations Greg, can you let people know where they can find you online?
Greg: So for a very limited time, most likely, can still find me on Twitter at Greg Silber, but I am, preparing to nuke that account in some form or another soon
Greg: because What?
Jeremy: I said going fast
Emily: Yeah.
Greg: yeah it makes me feel like I'm gonna have a panic attack every time I open that app. So you can find me instead on Blue Sky and if you need an invite, I've got a bunch that nobody's taking.
Greg: I'm also on Instagram at Greg Silber. I am currently working on a book. It does not have a title yet. But I'm just letting you know that sometime in the future I will have a book and I hope you buy it and enjoy [01:31:00] it.
Emily: We'll have you on to, to promote it when it comes out.
Jeremy: If are a person from future, please go buy Greg's book.
Greg: Yeah.
Emily: an eye out, stay tuned.
Greg: Yes.
Jeremy: All right, and uh, Joe, what about yourself?
Joe: Sure I'm on Twitter and Blue Sky at Joe Corallo, so that's J O E C O R A L L O, and on Instagram at CoralloJoe. And I've been promoting the uh, King Arthur and the Knights of Justice YA graphic novel reboot that I wrote that's going to be out March 12th. So, that's through uh, Maverick, uh, the Mad Cave imprint, so people can you know, pre order that, or if you listen to it after March 12th, you could just buy it.
Emily: Nice.
Jeremy: Yeah, go pre order that. Go buy it. Maverick is a great imprint doing big things. We're there.
Joe: I agree.
Jeremy: Ben, what about yourself?
Ben: you know, find me at uh ben con comics.com. Instagram [01:32:00] Blue Sky, Ben Con Comics. And, uh, you know, check out El Campo wins their weekend, and Captain Lazerhawk, a Blood Dragon remix. Out in stores now.
Jeremy: Fantastic. And Emily?
Emily: Mega moth.net And mega moth on Instagram. And, uh, I'm also on Patreon and Megamoth, so check it out! I'm on Blue Sky, mostly Megamoth across
Jeremy: Fantastic. you can find me at jeremywhitley. com. You can find me on Twitter and Instagram at jrome58. You can find me at bluesky and tumblr at jeremywhitley and, you know, jeremywhitley. tumblr. com. You can find my new graphic novel with Jamie Noguchi, School for Extraterrestrial Girls Vol. 2, which is called Girls in Flight, which just came out.
Jeremy: You can check that out at your stores right now. It released in November. And I have another book coming with [01:33:00] my friend and illustrator Megan Wong in February. Just called The Cold Ever After, that's coming from Titan, is available for pre order now and, uh, is, is a noir in its own way itself, so, interesting to this one.
Jeremy: And of course you can find the podcast on Patreon at Progressively Horrified on our website at progressivelyhorrified. transistor. fm and on Twitter at ProgHorrorPod. We would love to hear from you. And, uh, speaking of loving to hear from you, wherever you're listening to this, we would love it if you would rate and review it.
Jeremy: It helps more people find the podcast, which helps us keep doing it which really just is helping you in the end, because you get more content that way. Thanks again to Greg and Joe for joining us. Guys, this was a fun conversation about a movie that was an interesting watch.
Emily: So to
Ben: Y'all are
Ben: real
Greg: I wasn't bored. I wasn't bored. I've gotta give it
Greg: I was mostly just confused.
Joe: fascinating [01:34:00] just looking at Mickey Rourke looking not like Mickey Rourke today.
Emily: Yeah,
Joe: gets you through so much of it. You're like, Oh, wow. That's wow. Like that's that. Yes.
Greg: if you showed me Angelheart Mickey Rourke versus, I don't know,
Jeremy: the wrestler Mickey Rourke.
Greg: or Iron Man 2 Rick Mickey Rourke, um, I would be like, no, you can't fool me. Those are two completely different men.
Jeremy: That's a different gentleman. Yeah yeah. I think maybe the most notable thing about Angel Heart that we didn't talk about is that somehow it managed to cause a 30 year rivalry between Robert De Niro and Mickey Rourke. Mickey Rourke apparently still hates Robert De Niro, and Robert De Niro doesn't seem to know why, so. It's a very, very one sided rivalry.
Joe: Yeah.[01:35:00]
Jeremy: Uh, Well, uh, with that bit, thank you, as always, for joining us. Thanks to Ben and Emily for being here, as always. And until next week, stay horrified.