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Pilot to Pilot Podcast is your go-to destination for aviation inspiration, insight, and real talk from the cockpit and beyond. Pilot to Pilot aims to support all pilots who fly from students to professionals and recreational flyers. The show includes genuine discussions with pilots who work in all aviation sectors including airline captains and bush pilots to share their experiences of flying. Join our worldwide pilot community through subscription to track your flying aspirations with other aviation enthusiasts.
Episode three fifty six of the Pilot the Pilot Podcast takes off now. Aviation, huge shout out to Avemco Insurance. They are a new sponsor to the Pilot the Pilot podcast. We're doing a test run here. So if I could have your help, call the phone number, go to the website, see if they can help you out.
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Josh:My name is Joshua Sherard. I'm a corporate pilot. I fly Hawk eight hundreds and Lear sixties.
Justin:Aviation, what is going on? And welcome back to the Pilot to Pilot Podcast. My name is Justin Siems. Today's episode is with Josh. Josh is a former law enforcement now turned pilot.
Justin:He also does a little bit of professional skydiving, which we don't touch too much. But now that I'm thinking of it, I wish I would ask more questions because it's just insane. That that is something I would never do, is jump on an airplane. So kudos to you if you do it or have done it or want to do it. It's just not my thing, but I think it's really interesting.
Justin:This episode is great. Josh has just a lot of knowledge. He's former SWAT, which is really interesting. We joke about the only thing I know about SWAT is the movie. I think it was Colin Farrell, the SWAT movie.
Justin:And I was like, is that what life's like? He's like, yeah, kind of. But we talked about, you know, what it's like to be on a team and the team environment and how that helped him from SWAT to being in an airplane. He talks about his ATP experience. He talks about how he got into flying a Hawker and a Lear and much more kind of just ways to go about your training, just ways how he bought two airplanes, and just everything that he has done to put himself in the position he is now.
Justin:And we also touch on are the airlines for him. What does he do for the next step? What's his mentality? What's his mindset? It's really good in it's a really good episode for anyone getting into aviation that has the dream to be an airline pilot or just the dream to fly in general.
Justin:So, Avionation, I hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for listening. This episode will come out for Sun and Fun. If you're in Sun and Fun, we have some big, big news. You will be able to buy the Pilot to Pilot magazine.
Justin:The Pilot to Pilot magazine will be at the Bold Aviator booth. The Bold Aviator booth is going to be I'm trying to pull up the post right now that they have the Bold Aviator booth is gonna be Booth N 001 And N 002. I'm guessing the N stands for North. That's just gonna be me with my deductive reasoning. It's amazing.
Justin:Graduated Ohio State. Great great education there. But we'll be selling the magazine there. I haven't come up with pricing yet. What I'm thinking of is it's a subscription model.
Justin:But if you subscribe to volume two, I think it's gonna be $15.99. You save shipping, so you don't have to pay for shipping for that. And then you get to buy both magazines for $30. So if you buy, if you subscribe and get volume two, then you also get volume one. While supplies last, I'm gonna be shipping don't know how many.
Justin:I gotta do do the math right now. As soon as I'm recording this, I'm shipping those out. So if you're at Sun and Fun, please please please spread the word. Bold A Vitter booth will have the magazine. You can touch it, you can feel it, you can see if it's really worth it.
Justin:And I promise you, you're probably gonna be like, dang, this is a coffee table book. Maybe you should charge more. Maybe. I don't know. We'll see.
Justin:But, hey, VaNation. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. I hope you enjoy it. It was really a good time talking with Josh. It was off the episode.
Justin:Don't know if it's on there, but a lot of technical difficulties. Somehow I kicked and broke one of my RODECaster Duos that I used for the mixing and the audio recording. Had to make a special trip to Best Buy real quick. So shout out to Josh for putting up with me there. But Aviation, I hope you have a great day, and I hope you enjoy this episode.
Justin:So any further ado, here's Josh. Josh, what's going on, man? Welcome to the Pilot Pilot Podcast.
Josh:Thanks for having me, Justin.
Justin:Yeah. You know, we were talking offline. You know, I have to throw myself under the bus. This has not been an easy process for you. We were we had this linked up.
Justin:I can't remember the exact day. Was it last Friday? I think we're trying to do it.
Josh:Think so. Something like that.
Justin:Friday, Thursday. My wife and I were like, hey. Let's go to the beach. I was like, oh, heck yeah. The beach is awesome.
Justin:This is why we live in North Carolina, to go to the beach whenever we want. And then I got to the beach, saw your text like, hey, man. I'm in the lobby. I'm like, oh, crap. He is in the lobby.
Josh:Like, you should get the beach, man. Like, that sounds way better.
Justin:I should've done it on my phone. Right? Just be like, hey, what's up, man? Welcome to the podcast. That would've been awesome.
Justin:And then today, I had did like an Instagram story. I don't know if I'll post the videos or not, but I for some reason, was setting stuff up. I kicked my power cord, it broke something, and then thankfully, like we talked about before, I live pretty close to Best Buy. So I was able to find one, and we were able to get this going. We were supposed to do this at 01:30.
Justin:It is now an hour and eleven minutes later, but I appreciate you. The story better be amazing. It's almost Yeah.
Josh:No kidding. Yeah. Really gotta Alright. Juice this up a little bit here.
Justin:Yeah. Yeah. Start making up some stories, make yourself sound cool because it's gotta go. Oh, no. I joke.
Justin:I joke. But I appreciate, man. Thank you so much for putting up with the antics. Like I said before, we couldn't I couldn't hear you on my other microphone. I was like, I promise you I've done like 300 of these.
Justin:I know what I'm doing. It doesn't look like it now, but I promise you. But let's break into it, man. First question I ask everyone is is the same. Why aviation?
Justin:What got you into this industry?
Josh:You know, that's a really good story. I think like most kids, was really enthralled with aviation as a kid. You know, I grew up in the 90s mostly, a little bit in the 80s. But not to date myself, but mostly in the 90s. And you know, that was just, I mean aviation was just cool, right?
Josh:And then, you know, life took you down a different path and continued down that path. And then finally, you know, aviation was always kinda in the background. And then I started skydiving about 2015 and got into it pretty heavily. And so, you know, I found myself back in that industry in a different type of way but you know, really, really deep in that industry. And after being it for so long and then realizing that aviation was still something that I really love to do and really love to be a part of, I thought even though I was deep into a career in law enforcement that it was time I made a change and that I could still make a change and still make a great career out of something completely different.
Josh:So, know, always being there and always being present, I was like, man, this is going to be a great deal and ended up making that jump and got into it then.
Justin:So was this always something in the back of your mind even when you're going through law enforcement and figuring out that you wanted to be a police officer or whatever it was you were doing? Was this always something in back of mind? I was like, man, really wish I could just be a pilot. Were you more just kind of focused on the moment and eventually, like you said, skydiving and then you're like, oh, wait, flying is kinda cool. I wanna do that.
Josh:No. I would say it really kinda took a backseat to to really everything. You know, one of the things that I changed in kind of the second, I say the second half of my life, the second real big chapter of my life was in that first chapter, you know, throughout my law enforcement career I was so hyper focused on goals. I was so hyper focused on the end goals, next promotion, that next goal, that next thing that I wanted to do that I really kind of pushed everything else to the side. And when I look back on it, I realized that I, you know, I kinda bypassed a lot of things that may have been fun.
Josh:I bypassed a lot of opportunities that weren't necessarily going to work me towards that end goal necessarily, but but would have been a lot of fun and I would have gotten a lot out of. But so this go around, I said, hey, I'm gonna do this differently. And really decided to kinda take the opportunities as they came and really kinda widened that scope on what those goals were and and got a little bit more kinda existential with those goals rather than so, you know, performance based.
Justin:Yeah. It's really easy for Pilots to do that too. Right? Like if you were able to do that later in this career, in your second career, like you said, your second life, but it's so easy to just get focused on it. I found myself doing it too.
Justin:It's like, alright, cool. I'm in my training. Training sucks. I just wanna be an airline pilot, but I only have thirty hours and I have so many more to go. And I now I look back and I even noticed this in a moment too.
Justin:Like, I I remember doing my commercial and I noticed myself staring at a challenger doing touch and goes. I don't know why they're doing touch and goes, but they were. They also had this, like, wild compressor stall. I'll to find this video, but they they bounce like 10 times and they yeah. It was crazy.
Justin:I'll have find the video. I'll post it with this this podcast if I can find it. But I just remember looking at that plane, was like, dude, I do not wanna be flying this Arrow. I just wanna be flying that. And I just like I just said to myself, it's like, just enjoy it.
Justin:You don't know if you ever come back and fly an Arrow again and truth be told, I have never sat in an aero ever since I finished flying commercial ticket. And I rarely sit in GA planes anyways. So, just try and enjoy it. It's really hard because this everyone convinces you, which they're not wrong when they say this. It's get the seniority number as soon as possible.
Justin:Get the seniority number as soon as possible, but try to enjoy it. And I always say too, say yes to opportunities. You know, someone's like, hey, I got a Hawker, wanna come fly it? Don't be like, no. I'm gonna fly at the regionals.
Justin:Like, all I'm gonna do is just CFI this. Like, oh, dude, you're getting a chance to fly a Hawker. Go fly the Hawker. You might love corporate and you might wanna do it forever. So I think it's awesome that you were able to kind of change your focus, change your mindset.
Justin:Because it is important to still be goal mindset. Right? It's so important to have goals and go after those, but, you know, enjoy it where you can. Like, look, it's nice outside. We're at 3,000 feet.
Justin:I'm not getting the crap beat out of me in turbulence. This This is is great.
Josh:No. You're absolutely right. And that's that's been kind of my mantra, you know, since really kind of making this big transition is keep your net open. Yeah. It is always be acceptable of new opportunities.
Josh:Always be not necessarily out looking for new opportunities, but always keep your eyes open for those opportunities. Like you said, if somebody says, hey, you wanna come fly this? Maybe let me give it a shot. You know, I ended up, and we can go into it more here in a little while, but, you know, I ended up going back to to contract flying because I had some other non aviation opportunities come up and it allowed me the flexibility to do all kinds of stuff. And and it was, you know, it it I had to kind of step back and say, my my original goal of doing this with aviation, you know, kinda changes a little bit, but now it allows me to do so many other things.
Josh:And but I'm really still working towards, you know, learning more about aviation, getting more experience, having a good time with it, and just keeping that note open. Think you're absolutely right. It's so important for people to realize that and to just, you know, take that experience as it comes, take those opportunities as it comes, and eventually, you know, refine those goals and refine where you wanna go. You have a picture but there's so much that you don't know especially in the beginning. And that was one of the big goals in the beginning was just learn as much as I can about the industry.
Josh:Yeah. So that I had a better idea, that I could refine those desires and where I wanted to go. I had a picture of where I thought I wanted to go but as I started getting to it, as I started to learn more, you start refining that and realize, well, maybe I don't wanna do this. I wanna do this over here and that
Justin:Yeah.
Josh:I think that's so important to have that mindset.
Justin:Absolutely. And before we kinda keep going with aviation, you know, you have a lot of posters back there. You look like you had a pretty successful career in the law enforcement side. Do want to talk about that at all?
Josh:Sure. I mean, I did it for a better part of two decades. I, you know, spent a lot of time doing a lot of really cool things. I got to work with a lot of cool people. I spent thirteen of those years in SWAT.
Josh:That was the bulk of my career. Did a lot.
Justin:In the movie SWAT. That's the only Exactly like that.
Josh:Just don't let anybody tell you to.
Justin:Your friends broke yeah. Your friends wanted the money. Yeah. Oh, man. Are we gonna That's
Josh:it, man. Tuesday. End of podcast. No. I spent a lot of my time as that.
Josh:I got to my last three years there, was commander. So got an incredible amount of experience doing that. And not just, you know, with the policing and law enforcement, but in leadership and crisis management and in skills that directly transferable. And especially when you look at that along with the skydiving, going into aviation was, it made it I think a little bit easier. And you look at some of these careers out here, especially when you look at high pressure careers, and people think, well, the skills don't transfer when you look at military first responders, you know, medical careers, trial lawyers.
Josh:There's so many high pressure jobs out there. They're like, well, these skills really don't transfer, but they really do. You know, the ability to process information quickly, the ability to you know be very very calm under pressure to make decisions to execute on demand. I mean that those things are critical skills in a lot of different jobs especially when it comes to aviation. Mean, I how many times have you been maybe not sitting in a plane but sitting in a sim or something and there's three different emergencies going on.
Josh:You're trying to process, you're having to prioritize and then execute. And you know pilots do it and it's just like okay, this is just a normal day. But most people that would really throw. But there's a lot of jobs like law enforcement, like being a first responder that that really directly translates into. So that really kind of helped that transition a bit.
Josh:But it was a great career. You know, there's a lot of controversy around it now. And I decided that, you know, it was time for a change for me and there's some catalysts to that. But it was time for a change and I was still young enough to make a good solid career out of something else. So that's why I made that jump.
Justin:When you decided to make the change, was it solely focused on wanting a new challenge? Was it solely focused on, you know, I've realized that piloting is what I wanted to do? Or was it more just like, you know, policing or SWAT? This isn't what it once was. Was it one of those two or was it just the right time?
Josh:You know, it was really kind of amalgamation of all of that. You know, it was I'd been, like I said, I've been skydiving for a while. I was doing it professionally. I was running the air show circuit. So, you know, I'm a competitive skydiver.
Josh:I'm an instructor but I also jump with, you know, the REMAX Skydive team. So we go all over and we do air shows, we do sporting events, we do about 55 to 60 shows a year. And so I was really, really that last few years deep into aviation. And so, you know, seeing all these different facets of it and really just being a part, was like, man, this is an awesome community. This is an awesome way to spend my time and I can make a living doing this.
Josh:This sounds really, really cool. And then yeah, you know, was seeing police work go in a place that I didn't necessarily like and it wasn't what it was a long time ago. And then I think that there was some identity issues with that as well. Think that so, know, just to throw out a shameless plug, I'll have a book coming out later this year called Burn Your Boats that talks about, you know, that kind of that practical guide and that transition and that, you know, how to kind of solicit that motivation for big life change. But I talk a lot about identity it really kind of starts there.
Josh:And once again, you have people in very high pressure careers, high stress careers, aviation being one of them that tend to identify themselves with that profession. Then they have issues to do something different because they just can't see themselves in anything else.
Justin:Yeah.
Josh:And my transition was one of the catalysts to that was I got injured pretty bad. So it was a skydiving accident. I say it was an accident. It was just, you know, a poor judgment on my part, you know, in all honesty and ended up breaking my pelvis in half. So I was out for several months and it was really the first time in almost two decades or a little less, you know, that I had been away from that for any more than a week or two.
Josh:And so I really started to look at you know, is this something that I really wanna do? Is law enforcement still something I wanna be a part of? Or is it just that this is just what I've been doing and I really haven't had the opportunity to take a step back and look, is this what I wanna keep doing? And so that really gave me the opportunity to do that. And it was the latter.
Josh:It was, you know, I just think I've just been wrapped up in it so much. There's so many other things out there and this is a great opportunity to kinda change and do something different. So think there was a lot of factors that went into it and it was just the timing was, well, I thought the timing was gonna be great and it could have been. But that would have been that would have been the 2019. Okay.
Justin:Yeah, that was a
Josh:good time. Yeah, yeah, great time. Yeah, until March 2020. Yeah, so that's why I started. You know, I was an ATP kid and started ATP right at the 2020.
Josh:And then we all know where that went after that.
Justin:Yeah. You know, yeah. You know, I will say sometimes when you think it's a good time, it could be a bad time. When you think it's a bad time, it could be a good time. Right?
Justin:So when I started my training in 2010, it was a terrible time to try to be Pilot. I mean, when I went to my my dad it's Austin and Pilot. When I went to my dad's friends, they're like, what are you doing? Like, the the industry is dead. It's never gonna it's it's a terrible job.
Justin:Do like, I kid you not, I had probably less than five people tell me to do it and one of them was my dad. The other one was my now wife. No one else was like, you need to do it. Yeah. The other three were like in my flying program as well because we were all brainwashed to do it.
Justin:But they were all telling us not to do it because of the outlook just looks so bad. And it just goes to show you, like, how fast things can change here. And then you fast forward to, like, what, 2019? Hiring's going well. Yeah.
Justin:Everything's looking great. And then COVID comes, and it looks bad again. But truth be told, that was also a great time if you had some hours to get hired by the airlines because It really was. You were in front of the whole rush. And then, you know, sometimes if you start your training when the rush is going on, then it starts slowing down.
Justin:So it's kinda like you almost wanna hit it at a weird time. Seems like you might be right on the front of the gold mine, of the rush. And the good time, you could be right on the backside. And who knows how long the good times last, how long the bad times last. That's just kind of up for luck and you get that's all where the luck comes in and hope that you don't, you know, you're not one of the Well what is it called?
Justin:The the lost generation pilots.
Josh:Well, know, and that's so, and you're absolutely right. And obviously in aviation, anybody that's been in aviation knows that timing is one of the biggest the biggest factors about work and hiring and jobs. And I think what I've found is that you don't necessarily have to get the timing perfect but you need to be ready when that timing comes. So like you're saying, like if, you know, it's not so much that oh, I need to time so that man, I finish up my CFI and I get those fifteen hundred hours right when they're hiring. No, you need to be in a position to where you're a good candidate when that time comes.
Josh:Not getting, you don't necessarily need to be getting done when that time comes. But you know, you can be in a position to make yourself more marketable so that you are in front, like you said, and kind of in front of that wave ready when it comes. So, you know, a lot of people are like, well, I'll wait a year and, you know, timing's not right now. No, man, just get it done. Get, you know, get yourself into a position that makes you desirable and preferable and then let that timing hit.
Justin:Yeah. Was it difficult for you to change industries that both have such identities? You know, like people are cops. People are like, when you go somewhere and people tell you're a cop, there's a lot of questions about what you do. There's a lot of questions about, you know, what's going on in the world of policing or SWAT or whatever it is when you're talking when you're people find out your pilot, you know, to me, what airline do you fly for or route do you fly?
Justin:What planes do you fly? Like, just like all these questions. Was it difficult for you to go between the two or was it pretty easy because they're both such kind of identity centric? I don't know the right way to explain it, but, like, they both have such an identity around them. So was it easy to kinda just, like, move from one identity to the next, or was it that difficult mindset for you?
Josh:Really, it was about stepping back and reframing that identity. It's not so much that you go from one to the next. You just realize how to kind of reframe that. And you know, you go back to really kind of what drives you, like the true root of what drives you, you know. It's not so much that, you know, people ask, well, you know, why did you like law enforcement?
Josh:Well, I loved being a cop. I loved doing this. I loved helping people. There is, when you really start to look and dig deep down into that and you really start to kind of find those root causes, there's things, there's underlying kind of drive and motivation that go into that. And that's why you like doing that job.
Josh:Not necessarily that you like doing that job, but it fulfills these, you know, these motivations and this intrinsic kind of desire. And what you find is that there's a lot of other things that fill those too. So when you can really kind of identify, not necessarily, hey, I'm a cop, I like being a cop. No, I like the fact that people call me to help solve problems with the team and I get to work this puzzle, find a solution, work with people to complete this goal. That's what I really like doing.
Josh:And and then you start to back up that identity to surround or or to really kind of use that to to to really identify yourself. Not necessarily as a job, as a profession, as a hobby, but more intrinsically as you know, the things that really motivate you, the things that you really desire to do and complete. And that's how you kind of reframe that entity so that it makes that change a little bit more palpable and a little bit easier so that you can so that you you don't stress and worry about making that that change so drastic. It's not like I'm leaving this to do this. No.
Josh:I'm just doing the things that I really enjoy doing in a different a different profession, in a different job. And that's really kind of the one of the first steps that when you do kind of wrap, psychologists have a term for it. It's called enmeshment. And that's when you start wrapping your identity in around a job or profession or a hobby or something that you do rather than something that you enjoy or just who you really are. So once you kinda take a step back, it makes it a little bit easier.
Justin:Did you have anyone in your family that was a pilot? Did you have anyone kinda reach out to or lean on when you were making this decision?
Josh:I didn't. You know, the closest thing in my family to aviation, my grandfather was a he was a turret gunner in a b twenty nine in World War two.
Justin:And that
Josh:was, you know, the closest thing to aviation. It was just one of those things that always just mesmerized me and wanted to do just like any story of any kid. So it was kind of a challenge for me. Now I had a lot of being in the skydiving industry. I had a lot of people that I could, you know, ask for for guidance and and kind of mentorship in that in that world from, you know, people that were, you know, a thousand hours plus skydive pilots to people that have been flying for twenty, thirty years doing all kinds of different things.
Josh:So that was really, you know, where I kind of sought that information and, you know, a lot of that guidance down the road was leveraging that networking and those contacts.
Justin:Were you surprised at how easy it is to just, like, say, I'm gonna go be a pilot and then go do it? Like, aside from the money, aside from kinda like putting work to study. But, like, if someone wants to go fly a plane, it is literally as easy as calling the FBL and being like, hey, do you can I do an intro flight? And then you go fly for forty five minutes. Right?
Justin:Like were you surprised at how kind of accessible and how easy it is?
Josh:You know, yes and no. I was surprised with how easy getting started in a program was. You know, I knew that there was anybody, you know, you can call the airport where my plane sits. I've got three schools on that field. You know, and there's schools all over the place.
Josh:So, you know, I knew that there was outlets for that and it was really just kind of deciding which way I wanted to go. And, you know, that was what I found was kinda surprising is man, you're on an intro flight and then boom, you're in a program and you're in a pipeline and here we go and things are gonna happen fast if you want them to, you know, depending on the program that you're you're in. So I think that's what surprised me more so than anything else was how quickly I could make this happen if I wanted to and if I worked at it and if you know, kind of stars aligned, I had great instructors, great weather, you know, and I really made sure and prioritized everything I needed to do to get through that program. I was really surprised at how quickly I was able to get through That was the big the biggest point.
Justin:Did you have any other resources you reach out to? You know, I mean, there's there's a million and one kind of flight schools. There's a there's a ton of people that create content. Did you use any of that or were you just, you know, Google how to become a pilot as fast as possible? Oh, this is an ad from ATP.
Justin:What's ATP? Oh, cool. Sixty days or ninety days. Let's be a pilot in ninety days. Is that what happened?
Josh:There's a little bit of a little bit of both. You know, I had known a bunch of skydive pilots and so I, you know, kinda kind of started pulling the pool there and you had a mix of 61 guys. I don't you know, there wasn't really any ATP guys there that I got to directly talk to. But there's you know a lot that had their opinions of the program. But There's
Justin:a lot of opinions of ATP. There's a
Josh:lot of programme. Opinions of that, yeah. If anybody wants to know my opinion of that, I have a go to my YouTube channel. I've got a full breakdown of my experience at ATP. I mean, look, I'll be very brief with it.
Josh:I had a great experience. I know some people haven't. I was, you know, I was part of military, so I understand the term cooperate to graduate. So like, so I understood that, hey, I just got to do this, make it through, get to the other side and then I could, you know, go from there. So that was, you know, just kind of leveraging that networking and that.
Josh:The great thing about that industry is while it's seemingly big, it's a very small community and everybody's, you know, extraordinarily helpful with whatever. So, you know, I was able to get a lot of good firsthand information about, you know, maybe not just things to do but things not to do as well in order to kind of progress forward in a fairly quick manner.
Justin:Yeah. I mean, did you feel like what you read and what you prepared for for ATP came out to be true? Or was it kind of a little bit different than what you thought you were getting yourself into?
Josh:For the most part. I think that the biggest thing about ATP is you get what you put into it more so than other programs. I say that to a certain extent, right? Like I knew that it was going to be a very structured program. I knew that it was going, you know, the left and right limits were very small, that it was going to be very restrictive in certain aspects.
Josh:You know, I knew that if you front loaded a bunch of your, you know, the tests and ground schools and whatnot, that that might make it easier. But, you know, I got very fortunate, I got very lucky. I got set with some really good instructors, some really hungry instructors. And I think a lot of that too was one timing. You know, like you said that 2020, yeah, was, you know, COVID was setting in, but I mean, that was, I don't wanna say the peak, but you know, really kind of towards the peak of hiring.
Josh:They were pulling guys at a ATP with, what was it? It was fourteen hundred and something hours because you got x amount of hours during ATP. So they're pulling them early. You know, because they're like, hey, you're gonna get your last thirty something hours at ATP so you don't you don't even need the fifteen. Just, you know, and so they were pulling them quick.
Josh:So, I, you know, and I was fortunate that I was, you know, with a set of very hungry instructors. I had every written done before I started day one. So I had my, you know, my PPL done, my instrument, my commercial written done, completed before I started. So it made things, you know, go very quickly. Now, I've had a lot of people ask, you know, if you were going to go through it again, would you do it the same way?
Josh:And, you know, my answers differ. And I think it's a very that question depends on the person a whole lot. You know, that program is very like I said, there's lot of structure to it. It is not for everyone. Can tell you that right now.
Josh:Is not if you plan on taking a nice kind of leisurely pace, soaking it all in, that is not going to be for you. I'll tell you that right now. But if you think you can handle the fast pace because they will, you know, look, there's instances where they've kicked people because they just weren't keeping up. You know, they just weren't catching on fast enough and they're like, hey, this program is not for you. Yeah.
Josh:So that will happen. But, you know, so a more casual program might be for you. Honestly, if I had it to do over again and I've actually recommended this to a couple people, actually had a buddy go do it, I probably would have bought my own plane with zero time. Found a really good instructor and done it that way and just gone through everything in that plane. I mean, planes, you know, it's kind of a mixed bag, but for the most part, you know, you could find a decent deal on a plane and you're gonna spend some money flying it for two fifty plus hours or however long you plan on flying it.
Josh:But you're likely that if you don't wanna keep it, you're likely to get probably most of what you paid for it, if not more. I've had, I'm on my second plane now and both planes have appreciated considerably from when I bought them to when I sold them. So yeah, that's market and that's timing. But for the most part, planes don't depreciate a whole lot unless you depreciate them for one reason or another. So if you start I've
Justin:been waiting for planes to depreciate for five years. They have not. Yeah. It's like, come on. Know, You like five years ago, like, alright, let's say one eighty two.
Justin:Alright. Cool. There's no way this is gonna stay the way it is. And it's like, has it gotten worse? Probably.
Justin:Yeah. It's like, oh my gosh.
Josh:It's
Justin:worse. Yeah. It's it's frustrating. I mean, it's one of those things, like aviation is always expensive. Like, you tell yourself, like, when you're when you're going through training, like, dang, this is really expensive.
Justin:But, like, even these airline captains are just like, it's too I can't even want I don't it's too expensive for me to go rent a plane. I can't justify it. So it's always gonna be expensive no matter when you do it. It's just crazy.
Josh:I had a You just remind me real funny story. A captain that I was flying with that I've been flying with for a while. Retired Delta captain. I mean, coolest dude. I mean, coolest pilot.
Josh:I mean, we've gotten into some, I don't want say hairy situations, but some stressful situations. And like you just talk about a guy that, you know, just nothing shakes him. You know, that this was this guy and he decided, you know, he wants to get back in general aviation or he wants to get into general aviation. He's a little older and wants to fly his wife around, go visit the kids. You know, there are a lot of reasons that a lot of us get into GA.
Josh:And former Navy pilot went straight from the Navy straight to Delta. Delta for thirty something years and then over to And goes to, let me let me check this let me check this out. And so he's gonna go get checked out at a local flying club in a 172 or whatnot and shows up, got all his paperwork. And he shows up and they're like, hey, you can't, we can't check out this plane. You can't rid this plane.
Josh:He's like, what's the problem? And he goes, you don't have a single engine lancet. Like he flew F-4s in the Navy which is two engines straight to flying airline and never went back and got a single engine Land Cert. So they're like, you can go rent the Multi over there. You know, you can't, I can't
Justin:You're not getting 172, no sir.
Josh:Yeah. And they're like, well we offer a transition course. And he's just like, I've got forty thousand hours, you know. I'm like, sorry man. But
Justin:That's really funny.
Josh:But yeah, even then, I mean, you're you know, the wet rates right now are kinda crazy.
Justin:Yeah. I mean, I saw someone doing a multi. I can't remember the price, but the price that I saw was like, what? Like, I think it was $600 an hour wet for for a three ten. I was just like, goodness gracious.
Justin:Like, is this really what it is? And people are oh, cool. I'll call you tomorrow. It's like, no, you won't. Please.
Josh:No. I'm good. Yeah.
Justin:Yeah. I was just like and I said to my friends and they're like, oh, wow. It's a lot. And it's like, I can't imagine. I wanted to back up a little bit to when you started ATP.
Justin:When you started, you had probably a set goal. Right? I know you said that you're very goal oriented, but you try to kind of take a back path, like try to change a little bit. But I'm sure you're like, alright, cool. In five years, like, wanna be at Delta or ten years, I wanna be at Delta.
Justin:Was your goal always airlines when you started?
Josh:It was never airlines in all honesty. So, and not to say that I'm never, you know, I'm one of those guys especially now that nothing's ruled out and I will never say never to anything, right? So, but it was, I mean, I really didn't try to get that far ahead of myself. What I knew was, hey, need to get through this program. I need to go from two fifty hours to somehow getting fifteen.
Josh:I did not, I really didn't want to go the CFI route, you know, but I left it open. I was like, well, you know, we'll see how it goes. But then as COVID set in and as I saw kind of the writing on the wall and how that was going, definitely was, you know, kind of pushed out of going the CFI route. Fortunately, once again, I had, you know, some deep roots in skydiving. And so I had a good network there.
Josh:I said, well, okay. So I can build time doing that, being a jump pilot. And, you know, a lot of me, I knew several corporate pilots. And so that was kind of that first goal was, you know, that's where I want to start. Let try this out for a little bit.
Josh:See if I like it, see if I don't because it can be, as you know, it can be somewhat, you know, people can either love it or hate it. So but let me try this out and see if I like it. If I don't, you know, let's see how the airlines look. So there was always this kind of, you know, staged approach to to this goals without trying to get too far ahead because I knew that knew that I was ignorant about a lot of the industry. I knew that over the time of getting my Perkin by certs, of building that time, that I was going to be able to learn a lot more about some different sectors of aviation.
Josh:And so that was really the biggest goal is soak up as much as you can while you're working towards goals that don't, goals that have open ended outcomes, right? You know, that don't necessarily like, you know, this time building and, you know, being a jump pilot, like that's gonna help me no matter what outcome I choose, right? Things that have these, like I said, multifaceted outcomes that allow me to do those things. That was really the bigger goals was to just try to learn as much as I can and do things that are going to help me do a number of things. So, you know, but corporate was always kind of that, you know, that, well, I think this is the first place that I want to head, my first stop.
Justin:What was it about corporate that kind of drew you in?
Josh:I think a lot of it was the people. It was the customer service aspect of corporate flying. It was, I'm a people person. I enjoy conversing. I enjoy you know, just dealing more one on one with people.
Josh:And then as I started to learn more about the industry, it was more of that puzzle, right? It was more of that, you know, that's what drives me is, hey, I need you to solve this puzzle, work with these people, solve this puzzle, get from point A to point B. Both proverbially and literally. And I think that was what I enjoy about corporate as well is there's very, very little, as you know too, there's very little. And it also depends on the operator, right?
Josh:There's very little, I don't wanna say oversight, but it's like, I mean, we literally get, depending on if you're flying 135 or 91, I'll do both. But it's, hey, you know, I need you in this jet to fly this many people from here to here. You're gonna leave at this time. They would like to be there by this time. Other than that, that's pretty much the guidance we get.
Josh:Know, and everything else is incumbent on that crew to figure out, you know, oh, and your catering is this and that, you know, and that's about it. So, you know, you're having to complete that puzzle. You're having to do the fuel planning, do the whole flight planning, you know, the weight and balance. And I know that that sounds very trivial to a lot of people and that sounds horrible to a lot of people, but I enjoy that there is some enjoyment in that puzzle aspect and that, you know, kind of figuring out this whole piece and how we're going to make this work and having the freedom to do that as well, I do enjoy. And I have a lot of people that don't, you you get a fuel sheet, you get, you know, your manifest and off you go.
Josh:But I do enjoy that aspect of it. So there's a lot of it that kind of drew me towards that side and kinda keep me on that side at least for now.
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Justin:Yeah. Corporate is very much a puzzle. That's a good way to put it. It's like, you know, one piece fits one day, it does not gonna fit the next day. And, you know, so a lot of times flying is the easiest part.
Justin:I mean, the same thing goes with airlines. It's like flying is easiest part. The hardest part is like, alright, cool. Now we're on ground. Where's the car?
Justin:Did we call for
Josh:the car?
Justin:Do you remember?
Josh:I can go to the car.
Justin:What car did you have? Oh, someone's picking you up. Okay. Cool. Catering or, you know, or do you have a hotel?
Justin:Like, I mean, you you're just a customer service rep for them the whole time. Right? So it's like, oh, you wanna change destinations? Okay. Where do you wanna go?
Justin:Now, do I have fuel to go there? Do we need to make it feel like, it's just that it never stops. Yep. And that's I I like that about I mean, eventually, I think I did get burnt out a little bit Sure. From that.
Josh:It can be a lot.
Justin:Yeah. And I don't know if that was necessarily the employer's fault or if was just kinda like just me being ready for for something else. Seeing my friends be like, I don't do any of that. I'm like, oh. Oh, really?
Justin:Yeah. It's like, you don't? Yeah. It's like, no. I fly like two legs a day, then I go to hotel for like twenty hours.
Justin:I'm like, and you make more of them?
Josh:What are
Justin:doing this wrong? And that is so things just kinda added up that way. Sure. But corporate is great. I mean, I I too, when I flew corporate, thought that, you know, like similar to what you said, like they're like, hey, here's your brief.
Justin:We're gonna change it probably a 100 times. The place I worked at least did that.
Josh:Oh, yeah.
Justin:But this we're not gonna bug you. Like, just get the job done. That's similar to the airlines too, I'd say. They're like, alright, well, your departure time's nine, you know. Make it out on time, push on time.
Justin:We're not gonna we're not gonna And
Josh:nobody's calling you to make sure are are you sitting in
Justin:the cockpit yet? Like, no. I mean, yeah. You check-in and then you do your job. Yes.
Justin:So that's one thing I think is just like uniformly over all of aviation. I would say most jobs is just like, you know, that you're a big big boy, big girl, you know, here's the jet. This is where people wanna go, get them there. If anything happens, let us know what happened and don't do anything stupid.
Josh:Yeah. Try not to that. Yeah. When they first threw me accusade jet, I'm like, this is it? Like, I Yeah.
Josh:Like, go fly these people. I'm like, oh, you screwed up. Know? Yeah. Look like you're like, hi.
Josh:Yeah. Yeah. First time. This
Justin:is crazy. Like, I normally jump out of these of Yeah.
Josh:Yeah. I'll stay in this time.
Justin:Yeah. If you see me jump, then big problem.
Josh:You go
Justin:too at that point.
Josh:Yeah.
Justin:So What'd you learn flying skydivers? Was there any kind of revelations that you learned with that? Because, I mean, that's like a up, down, up, down, up, Well,
Josh:can be. And it depends on the type of flying you're doing. So, yes, it can be. If you're flying in a drop zone, it is a lot of repetitive. It is a lot of up, down.
Josh:It's a lot of hard work. That's And what a lot of people don't understand. I mean, it's work, it's labor. Depending on the type of drop zone you're flying at. I mean, flew, I started at a smaller drop zone.
Josh:We had 182s, 206s. So nothing terribly big. And I mean, are, you know, I would go in as a fill in for their normal pilot. They had one full time pilot. If it was gonna be a busy weekend, they'd bring in a second pilot or if you want a time off, I would come in.
Josh:But on busy weekends, you know, on a 182 with thirty three to thirty five minute turns, I mean, I'm flying 14 to I think the most I flew is 17 loads in a day. So, you know, you were the one, you're up, you're drop, you're down, you're up again, you're drop, you are fuelling. So we fuel for two loads. I'm you know, putting more fuel on the plane. You know, hopefully I get a chance I'll go pee behind the fuel tank, know, and jump back in the plane pick them up And and you'll do that from sun up to sundown.
Josh:And you eat on the way up, you drink on the way up. So there's a lot of work behind that. But it is, these are my people. I had a great time. I was hanging out with my friends, you know, so it was a lot of fun.
Josh:Now when I fly for, because being a demonstration skydiver, I also fly for the team as well. There's a lot of us that jump that are also pilots. So we'll kind of switch off. That flying is extremely different in the fact that when you talk about puzzles and those are the ultimate puzzles because you're flying, you know, one either for air shows which are one animal or you're doing, I just came back a few weeks ago from St. Petersburg, Florida.
Josh:We were jumping into the Indy race there. So and then I just flew two demos last weekend as well. So now you're looking at, you're flying over places that don't normally have skydivers. A lot of times it's in class Bravo because you're flying in big cities. So a lot of times it might be, we do one every year that's, it's like point six miles off the approach end of San Antonio's runways.
Josh:So you're, you know, you're having to coordinate with with three different controllers at that point, you know, with with approach and tower or ground. So there's a lot that goes into that. And it's and it's super high stress, but it's super fun to kinda figure out and and and do that. So that kind of flying teaches, you talk about multitasking, plus you're doing this while the door's open and you got people leaving the aircraft. So, you know, there's so much going on.
Josh:And then you go over to the air shows and that's a whole different ballgame to where you are having to push your skill set a little bit because it's not just hey, go up and drop them off. You're coordinating with other planes. May be flying in formation for most of it and then you're having to, you know, there's other planes coming up while you're going down and you may have to do things that you are uncomfortable with. Yeah. Not necessarily that are unsafe, of course, but things that, hey, the show's gotta go on, we gotta do stuff, so I need you to do things that, you know, we didn't think we were gonna do but are within the the boundaries of safety that you're, you know, somewhat uncomfortable with.
Josh:And you just have to you have to execute and you have to get them done. And so things like that, you know, really kind of expand your comfort level and expand your confidence. But it allows, like I said, it allows you to push that that skill set to a level that you weren't really kind of aware of beforehand. And it's true stick and rudder flying. And that's what I really love about it.
Josh:I mean, I'm I'm still a big GA geek. I do a lot of GA flying and I love that stick and rudder flying. And so that's to me that's, you know, I mean, I remember when I was first started flying skydivers and I'm talking to my buddies that are CFIs over at ATP and and especially when you're at a drop zone, I mean, you're trying to to get those turns down to where I say turns like up and down. You're trying to make that time as minimal as possible so that we can get more loads in over the course of the day. So you drop and you're coming down at V and E, you're turning downwind at about 8,000 feet, you're turning base at 5,000 feet, turning final at 3,000 feet.
Justin:Talking about chopping drop.
Josh:Literally is. I mean, the only reason you keep some power in is so that you don't, you know, shot cool the jugs. And but yeah, I mean, you're coming out as fast as you can. You're gonna keep the speed in as long as you can. And you're doing 160 or 170 depending until you're short final and then just trying to really, really chop that power and get down in there.
Josh:So a of cool, you know, pushing the limit flying.
Justin:Yeah. And I think it's interesting when you talk about pushing your limits and how everything was still safe. Mhmm. I always preach, you know, one of the most important things you can learn as new pilots is how to say no. But there's also a point where something is still safe to do, you're just not comfortable doing it yet, where maybe you need to go up with a chief pilot or an instructor pilot.
Justin:You know, it's just part of the job that it's just doesn't seem safe to you at time, but it is people do it all the time. It is safe flying. But, you know, there's a fine line between doing those two things, is saying no and doing that and feeling comfortable. Did you ever have issues or have to say no to anything? Or did you ever just like, oh, we'll see what happens?
Josh:No. I've said no to to Pilot. And that's part of, and we learned that, I learned that skydiving, in that you have a set of hard, fast personal minimums, right? These are my personal limits when it comes to skydiving, same with flying. But what I realize is, and same with skydiving, same with flying, is you have your personal minimums which are, you know, hey, these are my limits.
Josh:This is where I say that goes over this line. I say no. There's no discussion about it. There's no, well, maybe if this no. This is where we say no.
Josh:And then you have your comfort limits. And this is where like, hey, I I like to work down here. And then there's a gap in between your comfort limit and your safety personal limit. And that's where you need to operate. That's where you need to learn to operate a little bit into.
Josh:Right? You can push that comfort limit up a little bit in controlled circumstances. I'll give you an example. So this was a few months ago. I went out, had some time one weekend.
Josh:I've only been flying a tail dragger for probably about a year and a half now. So, you know, still probably less than, I don't know, one hundred, one hundred fifty hours flying a tail dragger. And so, know, still learning a lot of that, a lot of those stick and rudder skills. And it was we don't get a lot of crosswindy days down here. I'm in Houston.
Josh:So either it's either wind out of the North or wind out of the South most of the time. It's really not a lot of change.
Justin:Thunderstorms, they're gonna break up the airplane apart.
Josh:Right. Yeah. So so we had a crosswindy day. It wasn't crazy. And I had my personal hey, my minimums or my limits are, you know, 25 knots.
Josh:If it's down the pipe, not gusting over 10, no more than 10 crosswind. You know, and that's the crosswind component at the time. Now, was right at about 10. It was about eight to 10 crosswind component. You know, little headwind out of there.
Josh:And so I said, hey, I'm gonna go and I'm gonna put a bunch of weight in the back of the airplane. It's fairly controlled conditions. It's not crazy. It's within my personal minimums. It's not going to be comfortable.
Josh:It's not going to be fun. But, you know, this is within my ability. It's gonna push my comfort zone a little bit, but it's gonna decrease that gap between where I feel comfortable and where it's it's absolutely safe. So and and push that confidence level a bit. So that if I ever do get into that situation when I'm out, you know, I've got somebody in the back, I've got multiple, you know, some gear in the back and all of a sudden I'm landing in an airport, you know, an out airport and it's a little crosswindy, it's not the first time I've done that.
Josh:We had a, I had a big saying when I was a SWAT guy and it was I never want one of my guys to come out of an operation saying, man, that was the first time I did that. You know, when it was something that we could have foreseen, right? It was some kind of event, some kind of situation that we could have foreseen. Let's do it in training in a controlled environment where we don't have to, you know, like, hey, you know, in that case, if winds picked up all of a sudden and I was just like, man, can't make this landing work. You know, there's an airport 10 miles to the west that has East West runways that would have been right down the pipe.
Josh:I could have gone and landed there if it really got that bad. Know, sat the plane there, drove home, went and got it another day. There's, you know, always kind of safety margins out there. So no, you're absolutely right. You've you've got to learn how to kinda push that comfort zone in a controlled environment to where it's still safe because that's the only way that you're gonna grow.
Josh:And it's the only way that you're gonna push your safety minimums, right? Which your safety minimums, your personal limits shouldn't be hard set fast your entire career. I think they should absolutely move. You grow. You know, absolutely.
Josh:Because you have to, you know, your safety limit, your safety minimums when you come out of training should be very different once you have a couple thousand hours. For sure. I mean, that's only way to do it.
Justin:When you're doing it private, most CrossFit limitations are like 12 knots. So they have
Josh:to Unless you're an ATP and then they're like four. So, you know, you're not. Had so many guys waiting on their cross countries because they're, you know, and ATP is very well known for this. They're so restrictive on weather minimums on your solo cross countries. The guys would be waiting weeks just because the wind at one of their destinations was just not perfect.
Josh:You know? And it's just like, jeez.
Justin:And aviation stuff is rarely perfect. Right?
Josh:No. Never. Never.
Justin:Yep. Yeah. You know, it's tough. You think about ATP as like a whole, like, how many pilots they have training. Right?
Justin:So they kind of have to to have those rules for the the lesser pilot. Right? You're not the lesser pilot, but the you know, you gotta make the rules for everyone. They can't make the rules for the people that get it best or do it best or fly the best. They need to make it for the people that are maybe struggling or need a little bit extra help as well.
Justin:They don't wanna get sued.
Josh:And I think a lot of that too, you see that a lot and correct me if I'm wrong, you see that a lot in the airlines too when it comes to policies, right? Like they're not catering to the airlines, Czech airmen. They're having to cater policies because they're such a big entity, you know, and it's so hard to control thousands and thousands of pilots. So they really have to make sure that those policies are catering to, you know, the whole body. So I I think it's, you know, there there's a lot of crossover there.
Justin:Absolutely. So yeah, AQP, your training went pretty well. You're able kind of hold on to the garden hose and you didn't you maybe didn't struggle too much. But was there anything that kind of got you or was there any moment where you're like, oh my gosh, I'm calling my SWAT team back, see if I can come back. Like, goodness gracious, not for me.
Josh:You know, man, that's a really good question. I actually, I think I struggled most on some of the instrument stuff. I think that, you know, visual flying for me was a little bit easier. I think a lot of that had to do with my experience flying a canopy, understanding kind of just flight in general. So a lot of the instrument stuff, it took me a bit to quite understand how leverage my instruments for me.
Josh:So some of that was a little difficult for me. I think that was kind of the biggest part. You know, obviously landings are one of those things that, you know, just take, you know, a little bit to get. And then understanding that, how's the saying goes, that don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Don't let good be the enemy of perfect.
Josh:You know, like understanding that, hey, it doesn't, you know, you don't have to like leave a trail of grease every single, it's okay. You know, hey, it's a great landing, it's good, move on. You know, don't beat yourself up so much about it, you know. Learner to fry a tailwheel, very different ballgame. I remember my instructor is a good buddy of mine.
Josh:You know, if I didn't crease it, if I had a little bounce in, was like, man. You know, and I started, I was a big go around Gary. I'm not gonna lie. So like little bounce going around. And he's like, okay, look, I get it.
Josh:It's great. Philosophy to have. Eventually you're
Justin:going run out of fuel. Mean, you know, you
Josh:got 5,000 more feet of runway, Like, and you bounced in like the first 500. Like it's a little bounce and you're going to come back down. It's going be fine. So, you know, kind of understanding that too is that it doesn't, if it's not perfect every single time, it doesn't mean it's bad. It just means that you understand, okay, I understand the things I did well.
Josh:I understand the things that I need to work on next time. It's still completely adequate. Let's, you know, let's move on.
Justin:Yeah. Absolutely. I'm trying to figure out how to explain that to my son right now. Got a four year old. Every picture has to be perfect.
Justin:If he messes up, throws the paper. I'm like, buddy, it's okay. You
Josh:know? Took me thirty five years.
Justin:So Yeah. That'll I'm
Josh:pissed. He's like,
Justin:if it's not perfect, I give it to you. You can have the bad ones. I'm
Josh:like, alright.
Justin:It's like, we're gonna have to work on this. I love the the drive, man. But I can't afford all the paper you're going through. Right? Yeah.
Josh:Breaking grounds.
Justin:Yeah. Right? I know. Right? Those markers are going fast.
Justin:And those are the name brand markers. We gotta go somewhere.
Josh:It's the Crayola marker.
Justin:I know. Right? But, yeah. I mean, there yeah. I think that's just the drive.
Justin:Right? Like everyone wants to have a perfect fight, you're not gonna have a perfect fight. And if you get so hung up on being perfect, you're gonna be so, like, laser focused and making so many mistakes that you have no idea. Like, no one's gonna lie with you either. Everyone's really like, dude.
Josh:Was very, very similar. I was very, very similar. And when I started, I'll tell you, and I go back to this a lot, when I started skydiving, that helped me really kind of break that. Because you know what? Nobody is good at Scott Iving when you start, nobody.
Josh:I mean, think it's just falling out of a plane, but trying to fly your body is incredibly tough. Nobody's a natural because it's such an unnatural thing to do. And so you have to learn to just be okay sucking at stuff. Yeah. You know, and you're not gonna be good, you're not gonna be perfect.
Josh:The hope is that you suck a little less every day. And so that's been kind of the mantra with a lot of things in my life since then is just, you know, when I start something new, I'm gonna suck at it and that's great because then I get to make progress every day and I'm gonna suck a little less every day. And you get to see that progress. And some people I think kind of lose sight that, you know, that well, it's not, like you said, if it's not perfect or if I'm not great at it, when you can really enjoy that. And it's not just, I mean, yes, enjoy the progress, enjoy the journey, but it's just enjoy getting better at something, you know.
Josh:You get to plateaus and so many things in your life where you're just, hey, this is my level where I perform at. But when you start something new and you suck at it, man, you're gonna get you're gonna get to see a lot of progress real fast and it's a lot of fun. So don't be afraid to suck at things is really
Justin:I've also learned that I think I enjoy the grind more than I enjoy, like, being at the peak. Right? Like I enjoy the I mean, you don't realize in the moment, but I enjoy like the work. I enjoy what you put into it. And I enjoy the feeling of getting it.
Justin:And then once you're there, you're kinda like, alright, well, you know, just Yeah. Yeah. You're just gonna re re kind of focus your mind to be like, alright. Every single flight is now kind of like the grind. Right?
Justin:Like, how do I make this flight? Yeah. Like every single like, I don't know. It's just it's really interesting. So I guess moral of the story is just try to enjoy the grind as much as you can and really put in the work because it is worth it.
Justin:And it's especially hard in your situation where you were successful in life, where you were successful at something else, and you just think like, alright. Cool. I can do this. Now let me pivot to something completely different, but you still expect to operate at a level that a professional could operate at. But sometimes it's just not possible.
Justin:Right? Sometimes, you know, you're learning a brand new thing and you have to show yourself grace and it is very hard to do that in those situations when you're a prideful person, which I mean, I'm not calling you a prideful person, but most people have ego, most people have the pride. So you get there and you're like, oh my gosh. And your natural instincts just be like, alright, I'm out. I'm done.
Justin:I'm quitting. I'm going back. I'm not gonna do it. And you walk away from something that could have been awesome. I
Josh:I remember a for the first like two weeks just apologizing profusely. To my instructor being like, man, I'm so sorry. Those landings are horrible. And he's like, dude, you gotta chill out, man.
Justin:Those favorite student. Please stop saying that, yeah.
Josh:Yeah, yeah. That's a really fun. So, you know, and I think a part of it too is find, you know, find the little things that it doesn't have to be these big, you know, these big victories every time, right? Doesn't have to be as big progress. There's always little things to try to work and to try to especially in aviation, right?
Josh:Like there's these I wanna do this just a little bit better this time. You know what? I could probably do that a little bit better. You know, flying the Lear, we fly for brokers a lot and we fly a lot of repo flights, repositioning flights because of that. So, you know, drop passengers off, we're gonna go reposition to pick other passengers up the next day or whatnot.
Josh:And I had an amazing, the guy that I fly with in the Lear, amazing guy, we're both ATP kids. So we would treat every repositioning flight and we'd like, what can we do different in this flight? What can we, almost like as a training flight, like what can we train on on this flight? Whether it's, hey, we're gonna fly this approach a little bit differently because we don't have packs and doesn't really matter. You know, we're gonna not use this in the approach.
Josh:We're not gonna use the flight director for this. We're not gonna, we're gonna hand fly this arrival maybe. Or, you know, we're gonna do something a little bit different to try to, you know, hone this skill or just make sure that we still have this or, you know, and that made things, you know, very very to keep it from getting too repetitive and and plateauing out is just Yeah. I mean, man, just the little things. It it can be can be big victories.
Justin:Yeah. And when you start getting into planes with autothrottles, you know, everyone's all turn off the autothrottles because when they get MEL and you're like, oh, oh, I forgot. Okay. I gotta
Josh:pull pack of fly with these. Like
Justin:It's not in, like, the it's not in your process of of thinking about things because they just always do what they're supposed to do. And now you're like, oh, I gotta be a pilot again. Gotta control my star.
Josh:Had, we were flying into, I think it was Scentsy. And it was in the middle of night, weather was crap. You know, I mean, low, low ceilings. And autopilot just, I mean, it's in a it was in an older Hawker. Autopilot just completely craps a bed.
Josh:No autopilot, nothing. And you know, no autothrottles, no nothing. And I know that sounds, you know, I'm about to sound real bougie, right? Like Yeah. Like now I've got a flying arrival and I've got a flying approach by hand which I know I'm sure a lot of listeners out there are like, oh, so sad for you.
Josh:But in a jet, it's way different when things are happening that fast. And this was with my real cool captain, right? And he just looks over at me and he just, it was my leg. I'm in the left seat. He just looks over at me and he's like, I'm glad I'm not flying.
Josh:You know, I'm just like, thanks, man. And I'm just having to sit here and just, you know, hand fly this around. I won't be able to see anything. It's
Justin:He's like, you're a little fast, by the way.
Josh:Won't wanna slam. Yeah. Oh, he was.
Justin:Little bit better. Yeah.
Josh:But that was out of out of request. I was like, can you help me out here?
Justin:So Please help me. Yeah. What have you learned, you know, transitioning going all the way back from law enforcement to, you know, your training, skydiving, and now you're working in a two person crew? Have you kind of noticed a a constant theme of, like, teamwork at the mission done? Like, this is like a you and me together.
Justin:Have you appreciated that or have you not really seen that as much as you thought?
Josh:No, I haven't. And that was one of the reasons that I loved being on SWAT and I love doing that was because of the team dynamic, because of how much you have to rely on that dynamic in order to complete a mission, in order to get the job done. You know, you're not gonna do it by yourself and it's not gonna happen by yourself. And so there was nothing cooler than, you know, when you worked with a team of four or six guys and you just knew every you worked with them so much and so close in such stressful situations that you just you had this, you know, almost, you know, telekinetic you know, telekinetic bond to where you you knew each other's movements. You didn't have to, you just understood how they were gonna work together and understood how things were gonna mesh.
Josh:That is amazing, you know. And there's a great book and I'm trying to think of the name of it. And it talks a lot about, oh, The Rise of Superman. It's a great book out there and it talks a lot about flow state. And it talks a lot about how extreme athletes, you know, working together have reached kind of that that pinnacle of performance and flow state in that environment.
Josh:And the same is true when you get into that crew environment in a cockpit, you know, and you're working together, you're flying together a lot. I think that's one of the big differences between flying with a smaller, you know, 135 or 91 operator and maybe a larger company is that I fly with the same people all the time. And so we really get to know each other. We really understand how each other are gonna work. And so you start to see those things even before they say them.
Josh:But I love that. I love that tight knit crew, that high level of communication where you're just everything's very, very seamless and you've worked together and you see those things come in before the other one does. I mean, to me is just super cool. And I really, really love that environment. So I was able to, you know, bring a lot of that over and kind of learn how to reframe that into that aviation mindset to make things, you know, so much more efficient, so much more easy, and then, you know, so much more safer on the end too.
Justin:Yeah. Absolutely. One of interesting question. What's been the most stressed out or like the most stressful situation you've been in? Has it been in a plane or was it in one of your SWAT missions?
Josh:Oh, no, man. Flying a plane's easy, man. You're
Justin:actually trying to kill me.
Josh:Yeah. Get shot at, man, like, and do some stuff. That that that adds a whole new aspect to that. Right. Yeah.
Josh:No. I mean, that's a really good question. You know, if you look at, I mean, let's take aviation because there's a slew of events on the law enforcement side that are pretty stressful. But, you know, on the aviation side, there are a couple. So I was, are you looking for stories or are you just looking for, you know, exactly?
Josh:So there was, I was flying an air show. We were doing Sky Hourvers. I was flying an air show in Monroe, Louisiana.
Justin:Okay.
Josh:Red, white, blue air. They have it every year. Generally around July 4. Yeah. This their air show.
Josh:We we're opening the air show. So we're dropping jumpers that are gonna lower, you know, the American flag to the national anthem to open up the air show. I'm gonna have a chase plane with me. So one of the aerobatic planes is gonna chase. We're gonna fly in formation all the way up.
Josh:I'm gonna drop jumpers. He's gonna pitch down. He's gonna circle the American flag while I pitch over and I'm gonna come back and land. And that's the plan. It's pretty standard.
Josh:It shouldn't be anything big. As soon as I take off, something happened with comms and I can hear the air boss. I can hear the chase plane but they can't hear me. The air boss can't hear me. And so but we're gonna continue because we understand the plan.
Josh:The chase plane is relaying messages so everything's, you know, kosher. The bigger problem was that they were still using this. There was one commercial flight that had to come in during the air show. So we thought it was gonna come in later. It ends up coming in while we're on the climb.
Josh:So they gotta pass us over to departure. Once again, I'm basically Nordo. And so there was that whole fiasco. So I can't really communicate. So they passed over departure and then we had to clear the airspace, come back.
Josh:And so we come back and then, you know, drop the jumpers off, everything's cool and then door's malfunctioning, door won't come down. So now door's not coming down, door's flapping all over the place. I have no communication. And then the air boss comes in and tells me we're running late now because this commercial flight had to come in. And I thought I was gonna land on 14, which is where I took off because we got some pretty gusty winds.
Josh:He's like, I need you down now. I need you to land on, I think it was 04 crossing runway. So now we're looking at, it was like a 10 to 18 knot crosswind gust a quarter, it's gonna be a quartering tailwind. It's like 10 to 18 knot quartering tailwind. My door doesn't work.
Josh:I can't communicate. I'm literally communicating in smoke signals with the plane because I've got a smoke system on the plane. So he's like, you know, he's like, you know, I need you to land on this. I need you down ASAP. You know, puff me if you got me.
Josh:And I, you know, give them two puffs of smoke to know I received and I acknowledge and comply. And I haven't been flying air shows for very long at this point. This is several years ago. And so now I'm on the descent very quickly and I'm thinking to myself, I have no comms. My door is flapping open.
Josh:I don't even know if it's gonna fly off at some point and hit the tail and rip off a tail. I'm about to have to land an 18 knot quartering tailwind on this plane that may or may not, you know, be structurally sound when I get down. But I just have to do it. And I think that's really one of those times where I really had to kind of dig back into the, you know, into kind of those, you know, stress inoculation scenarios and say, all right, let's just, let's start breaking off this problem one issue at a time and start solving problems one issue at a time and just solve the next problem, solve the next problem and then just execute. And so I think it was one of those situations when you talk about like pushing that comfort zone that's you just have to start really, really looking at the issues and solving the problems that you can solve.
Josh:Don't worry about the stuff you can't. Right. Then just Or the control. Yeah. That's and that's worry about it.
Josh:Because there's nothing I can do about the door. Nothing I can do about the radio. Mhmm. And so stop worrying about it, you know, because that was what was getting And me the look, worry this landing is gonna be challenging. It's gonna be very, you know, it's gonna be difficult.
Josh:I'm gonna float down this 5,000 foot runway forever, but just put get the plane on the ground and then we'll fix everything else. And that compartmentalization is such a critical skill to have and not only to have, but to develop. And you have to do it. You have to be proactive about developing it. You have to be, and just like you said, like control the things you can control, don't worry about the things you can't.
Josh:So, you know, the more that you can kinda, you know, work on that compartmentalization, the better you're gonna be down the road if you have a real, actual emergency that you have to handle. So, know, sometimes being stressed out is okay. You know, as long as you work through it, you make through it, know, you're gonna be better off on the back end definitely.
Justin:Yeah. To kind of finish this out, know, I asked you about your goals and what you wanted to do. Do you Is everything still the same? Is corporate kind of what you want? Or are you feeling any kind of pull toward the airlines now?
Josh:You know, there there's always there's always that, man, I wonder what it's like on that side. Right? You know? And I'm sure that you felt the same thing. Yeah.
Josh:Flying for NetJets for so long and and, you know, man, I wonder what it's like on the other side. And I've got a lot of friends that are on that side that fly over the Majors and there's pros about it that I like, there's cons about it that like. I am involved in a lot of other things. You know, there's a lot of other things that I get paid for that I do on the side. And so one of the things that's really important to flexibility of my time and to allow me to do all those other things.
Josh:And at this particular juncture, you know, corporate's allowing me to do that and flying contract corporates allowing me to do that and have that flexibility and have that time. Now, a year from now, two years from now, that may drastically change. It may not be the case. And so I think it's important for it's been important for me to say to stay open minded and to say, you know, this is what's working best for now. Yeah.
Josh:Once again, just like when I started, what can I do to make sure that I'm always setting myself up for the most opportunity and the most outcomes in the future? Am I still working towards things that are gonna help me if I do wanna go to the airlines? Am I still making those connections? Am I still networking? Am I still getting good time?
Josh:Am I still earning good time so that it looks good, you know, on my flight grid, on my resume? So, you know, I think that's right now the big goals is continue pushing all of that to those things that give you the most beneficial outcomes and continue to enjoy it. Know, and that's my biggest thing is if I don't enjoy it, then there's no reason I should be doing it. So we'll try something different. But, you know, I an email from a certain major airline just a couple days ago, you know, inviting Yeah.
Josh:Inviting me to apply. And I'm like, oh, man. I'm like, who put my name on a list? You know, somewhere.
Justin:Like, I'm only gonna be corporate. I'm only gonna be corporate. Like, oh yeah, wait till I ask you to come fly for me. You're like, okay.
Josh:Yeah, that's well, that's, you know, and I didn't even think I'd go fly corporate. And that was, you know, and it was a networking deal. And I didn't know I'd go fly corporate as early as I did. And it was just a guy called and hey, you wanna come fly for me? And I thought he was joking.
Josh:And sure enough, he was not.
Justin:You followed through. Oh, wow. Okay,
Josh:cool. Yeah. You know, that's the message is always keep your net open and man, always just take the opportunity as it comes. And don't feel like, you know, we've talked about corporate, we've talked about airlines, there's 800 other ways Yeah. To make a good living
Justin:For sure.
Josh:Flying, you know, and don't rule those out, man. There's so many other cool things to do in this industry that is just endless.
Justin:Yeah. I think the most important thing is, I've learned this personally, is never say never. Right? And then also, like you said, always put yourself just in the position, you know, like, alright, cool. This is the perfect place for me.
Justin:But just because it's perfect place for you now doesn't mean that that job's always gonna be there. So alright, cool. How else can you improve? What else can you do to keep the relationships going? So you said networking is everything.
Justin:So always meet people, always talk to people, always put your best, you know, foot forward, because you never know when you're being calling that card you got one day that was like, hey, if you ever need a job, give me a call. Okay, well my favorite job that I never thought would ever shut doors, shut doors. So hey, can I come fly for you? Like, sure, come on. Or hey, the major airline just reached out to me, maybe I'd try that.
Justin:Yeah.
Josh:Yeah, I can't tell you how many times I've seen it, where, especially in the 01/3591 world, where it's just like, hey, this operate, we're not hiring anybody. We're full on pilots. It's Friday. We're full on pilots. You know, thanks, everybody.
Josh:I know you're calling, dropping applications, but then they make a deal over the weekend where they're taking on a new tail and Monday they need four pilots today, you know? And that happens so often. So being present is so important and being part of that industry. Know, I could give advice, would be to go get involved somewhere in the industry if you're not already networking. You know, get with associations, get with organizations.
Josh:If you're not, you know, if you're not working at the FBO or doing something in that field, you know, I know down here we have South Texas Business Aviation Association, North Texas Business Aviation Association, every state has their own. Have monthly meetings, stuff like that, events. Go to those, meet people. More people you can meet, the more network thinking you can do, the more you're you're in that kind of front of mind. So when somebody's like, oh man, we need a pilot.
Josh:Man, I just met this guy yesterday. I tell you that timing is critical Yeah. When it comes to being in the right place at the right time.
Justin:Absolutely. 100% agree. Josh, man, I appreciate your time and I love your outlook on things. It's always cool to talk to someone that changed careers just because, you know, you've done something well. You're able to make a living off of stuff and you came in aviation because it's something you love and something that you wanted to do.
Justin:And and you're able to do it. So kudos to you. I can't wait to see where your story goes, you know, whether it's airlines, whether it's just continuing to do corporate, fractional, whatever it may be, or maybe you're like, hey, I'm just gonna fly skydivers for rest of my life. Right? Know, whatever I it may be, wish you the best.
Justin:Yeah. It's been a good time talking, man. I appreciate your time.
Josh:Yeah. Thanks for having me, Justin.
Justin:The Pilot to Pilot podcast is brought to you by Ground School from the finer points, the indispensable training app for new and experienced pilots. Visit learnthefinerpoints.com backslash Justin to save 10% off your first year.