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NET Society is unraveling the latest in digital art, crypto, AI, and tech. Join us for fresh insights and bold perspectives as we tap into wild, thought-provoking conversations. By: Derek Edwards (glitch marfa / collab+currency), Chris Furlong (starholder, LAO + Flamingo DAO), and Aaaron Wright & Priyanka Desai (Tribute Labs)
00;00;00;00 - 00;00;24;00
Pri
Hey, what a crazy week. Don't you feel like the whole energy on the timeline is, like, totally different now? Even, like, compared to the podcast last week.
00;00;24;01 - 00;00;40;24
Chris
Yeah, it's, it's a little brighter. It's a little more action going on. Some of the, the monsters of NFT rock. I mean, literally in ether rocks, old, you know. Nothing like a little ether rock action to let you feel like you're back.
00;00;40;27 - 00;01;04;16
Pri
Yeah, totally. The week giving back. I mean, it's been kind of interesting to see all these, like, NFT treasury companies, like the Dats, as I think we're calling them. You know, there's that, one that bought the a punk game or whatever. It's kind of notable, I feel like, and as a result of that, I even like, you know, Matt Levine's newsletter mentioned that, like, NFT treasury thing and, like, I feel like it's actually kind of hitting some mainstream press, too.
00;01;04;18 - 00;01;07;07
Derek
What did Matt Levine say about I missed that?
00;01;07;09 - 00;01;19;20
Pri
You know how he has like, just like the daily newsletter. It was just basically talking about how this is a thing now. And so it was like a segment of his newsletter, and I was like, oh, well, the fact that he covered it is like kind of interesting to me.
00;01;19;26 - 00;01;40;04
Derek
Yeah. There is something very cover a bull when Travis thinks their teeth into this stuff. It's like it's so zany and weird and wonky that, like, it just makes for really great finance sound bites. So it's. Yeah, it's fun to see some of that starting to happen again. I'll also just say like, this isn't you know, I was having this conversation with somebody over the weekend.
00;01;40;04 - 00;02;01;08
Derek
There's there's been this very clear trend. And I think that the GameStop stuff really kind of like put this into focus around, you know, retail, getting involved around pricing these assets in every market. It's not just crypto, but it's making for a much more interesting. It's it's like, I don't know. I don't even know what to call it.
00;02;01;08 - 00;02;23;06
Derek
The social media ification of finance, where it happened again this week with that actress who I'm forgetting her name, Sydney Sweeney, rolled out this ad for American Eagle, and it just went super viral. And American Eagle stock just shot up like 20 or 25%. You know, it's like largely driven by this personality and this this the meme of Sydney Sweeney.
00;02;23;06 - 00;02;45;11
Derek
Sweeney and and what she stands for is, you know, a starlet in America at this very specific time and, and moment. I think there's just a lot happening around retail and, and these markets colliding that is making for really great soundbites and really a lot of renewed interest. And I think we're going to we're going to see more and more weird stuff, as it relates to the crypto side of things in not too short order.
00;02;45;11 - 00;02;49;20
Derek
So I'll be, I'll be tracking the, the Matt Levine's of the world to see how they're covering up.
00;02;49;21 - 00;03;07;28
Pri
Same the other thing and like, it just I mean, I guess obviously NFTs are coming back. Market feels like in general coming back. But I, I was actually noticing another trend. I think the Sydney Sweeney one is like notable as well. But there's also like meme stocks like just in traditional equity markets that are starting to rally again.
00;03;07;28 - 00;03;23;05
Pri
Like, I don't know if you guys saw like the Coles meme stock get like pushed up to I feel like there's like an open door as well like that. That's kind of hitting the meme stock frenzy. It's like, I don't understand why it all happened at once. Maybe. Do you think it's just like the tariff stuff like subsided?
00;03;23;05 - 00;03;41;27
Pri
And so people are like, back at it. I just don't know. It's not just crypto that's kind of feeling that push. And the reason crypto is feeling that push, I think, is because of the tailwinds with on the regulatory side. I think it's obviously making it a little bit easier for companies to operate. And so you can kind of see why that would lead into a larger crypto rally.
00;03;41;27 - 00;03;56;21
Pri
But it's interesting to see like that's a new swingy like American Eagle stock and Kohl's and Open Door and all these other like non crypto companies feel that effect right now as well. Like something's definitely in the water. And I don't know exactly what that is.
00;03;56;23 - 00;03;59;05
Chris
Animal spirits of we'll get out.
00;03;59;08 - 00;03;59;25
Derek
There you go.
00;03;59;27 - 00;04;02;09
Chris
Sorry Derek. You're going to say something.
00;04;02;11 - 00;04;19;00
Derek
No that was that. That was way more than anything I should have said. I actually think that's that's about right. It's like markets are at an all time high. People are very clearly risk on the spirits are are, you know, the invisible spirits that make people want to play markets and participate in them and speculate like they're returning.
00;04;19;00 - 00;04;40;24
Derek
And I think that's I think that's what we're seeing. I think we're seeing that in traditional markets, which are at all time highs, and we're seeing crypto markets where, you know, leading betas at all time highs, you know, like Bitcoin and ether. It's getting there. And the the tail of assets are on on the march up. And I think people are feeling like they want to party and play in these things and and and get a little further out of the curve.
00;04;41;00 - 00;05;00;11
Chris
I do wonder like how much of this is a bit of a if you can't beat them, join them tight mindset, especially with the big beautiful Bill passing and, you know, us, letting this debt run wild. Maybe people are just like, all right, well, you know, if the future of money is, a diminishing dollar, then you know what?
00;05;00;13 - 00;05;03;24
Chris
Let's let's go make hay and, get on out there.
00;05;04;01 - 00;05;09;17
Pri
So financial nihilism redux again. This is like, you know, March 2020.
00;05;09;19 - 00;05;29;03
Aaron
I don't know if I think isn't like I mean, that was what not that you should give any credence to Jim Cramer. But I mean, that's what he was saying Chris. Right. Like he was saying he's buying Bitcoin and it's because of concern about the US debt. So maybe there's some threat of that that that's moving more into the popular consciousness.
00;05;29;03 - 00;05;47;18
Chris
Yeah I don't I don't think it's necessarily like a majority opinion. I imagine the majority opinion to simply say, oh, things are green. Let's go. Right. You know, like, I think there's a bunch of people who are just like, I hear the music, I hear the dance. But then I do wonder if there is a wing of people who are just like, suck it.
00;05;47;24 - 00;05;52;18
Chris
I guess I have to, you know? And so it's a little more, fuel on the fire.
00;05;52;21 - 00;06;13;00
Pri
I can't tell if it's also potentially a reaction to I as well, either having more time or under or some sort of, like, human self-preservation. Like. Not like self-preservation for humanity, like. Oh, like, let's go create this movement. But part of it, I think, might be that that it's like a people have more time because maybe they're allocating more work to the machine.
00;06;13;00 - 00;06;35;01
Pri
But also it's like a kind of something the machine can't necessarily like. Do these movements that are driven by financial markets, it's kind of done through these communities and these like amorphous, hive like groups that can only really be human driven at least at this point. I don't know what I'm trying to say with that or if that really makes sense.
00;06;35;01 - 00;06;37;12
Pri
I don't I don't think it's that deep, but just a thought.
00;06;37;16 - 00;06;50;18
Chris
You're feeling like Joe Retail, Joe Financial retail is is activated and ready to mount a defense or build a wall for, for themselves prior to AGI coming in.
00;06;50;20 - 00;06;51;21
Pri
I don't know, for you.
00;06;51;22 - 00;07;14;24
Chris
You're you're good, Alexander, till you drop things in our discord. From time to time, I open them up, I start reading them, and halfway through, you know, it's like because Australia is so chosen. So let's call right in the the early odds to China. And when you combine that with the failure of classical offer to win a new generation, you can see why humanity is doomed.
00;07;14;24 - 00;07;18;00
Chris
Like what is going on. I can't even follow any of that thinking.
00;07;18;02 - 00;07;25;15
Pri
I don't know, I actually can weirdly follow up, but I think it's more of a subconscious thing. Not like a conscious thing, but okay, fine, we can move on from that. But I know.
00;07;25;15 - 00;07;30;26
Chris
No, no, I don't want to move on from it. I want to I want to understand, like what is in there. Like, what are you seeing?
00;07;30;29 - 00;07;49;18
Pri
I mean, that's what I think. It's more just like a subconscious. There was this meme that put it very like, this is like a left hand, and I still can't get this meme out of my head. But basically, this is where I've been thinking about it a lot. But the mean is just like meme. It's just a picture, and the headline is the only jobs left in the future.
00;07;49;21 - 00;08;10;08
Pri
And one is venture capitalist, the second is vibe coder, and the third is Data Labeler and the fourth this meme coin trader and I like just I feel like that future is obviously like AGI when AGI, some version of AI hits like you have a second. People like that are vibe coding, building things on using software, software. It's like just everywhere.
00;08;10;08 - 00;08;31;19
Pri
And then you're venture capital is the capital. Allocators are definitely going to continue to fund that. And then data label deliveries and new features. And I think about like the future that simply I'm like, okay, the meme coin community, whether that be meme stocks with it, whether it be crypto, I just feel like that's only going to get bigger and people might even lean into it as a reaction about, okay, I don't know.
00;08;31;21 - 00;08;34;10
Pri
Anyways, let's have fun.
00;08;34;12 - 00;08;47;26
Chris
I don't know, maybe I want to talk to you a little bit here. Maybe you need one of your other, hosts, to come bail you out. But my wife tells me that we're a chat show, and people just like to listen to us chat, and so, God, I'm chatting.
00;08;47;26 - 00;08;49;13
Derek
I like it, I like it.
00;08;49;18 - 00;08;57;05
Chris
I didn't know there was a whole genre out there, Derek. Apparently there. That's a thing in podcasting world. The chat, I mean, is the analog video.
00;08;57;07 - 00;09;01;27
Derek
What is the analog? Just like white noise in the background while you work?
00;09;02;00 - 00;09;04;02
Chris
Because I sound.
00;09;04;04 - 00;09;04;29
Chris
I don't know if that's.
00;09;04;29 - 00;09;12;01
Derek
A good if that is that, is that a good thing? I guess we want to be a chat show. I think that's I think that's what we self-identify as.
00;09;12;04 - 00;09;14;14
Pri
Yeah. We don't have, like, segments. It's just chat.
00;09;14;21 - 00;09;15;28
Derek
We're just chatting.
00;09;16;01 - 00;09;22;08
Chris
So our pronouns are chat, chat, chat. Yeah. You got us in different problems or just in chat.
00;09;22;11 - 00;09;37;01
Pri
Oh man. Do we want to talk about like NFT stuff actually, because I feel like there has been a huge push on the timeline around it. Like, I just feel like people are coming out of the woodwork, everyone saying, we're back. Like, we have to comment on this.
00;09;37;04 - 00;09;48;07
Derek
I think, I mean, the I mean, the cool thing is like we the, the four of us have been chatting about NFTs, I think pretty much on every episode that we've done for the last, how long has this been going on? A year.
00;09;48;13 - 00;09;49;26
Chris
Episode 40.
00;09;49;28 - 00;09;52;19
Derek
Episode 40. Right. So 40.
00;09;52;21 - 00;09;55;03
Chris
Yeah. So we got to get to episode 52. Derek.
00;09;55;06 - 00;09;56;24
Derek
There we go. Okay. All right, so.
00;09;56;24 - 00;10;01;08
Chris
We're taking a few weeks off, so maybe like episode 47 to full year or something.
00;10;01;11 - 00;10;27;20
Derek
Yeah. Got it. Okay. But we're we're encroaching a year and I feel like, you know, I could I can look at that that that chart, that social sentiment chart or that price chart. For like market cap rankings around punks or squiggles or whatever, and point out some pretty local bottoms on that chart. It I think narratively, like this has been a difficult last couple of years for the networked objects from an attention perspective, but like, it never really left.
00;10;27;20 - 00;10;46;28
Derek
Like we all of the stuff we're all still collecting. I think I've collected more work in the last 6 or 7 months than I had in the 6 or 7 months before that. I think the thing that's changed to kind of like bring it full circle is we have identified a new prospective buyer for people who want to participate in in on chain markets.
00;10;46;28 - 00;11;16;03
Derek
And that's largely off chain vehicles that are positioned and tailored towards institutional audiences and allocators and folks who have a little who have a little less discretion in what they're able to do in terms of wielding risk capital around. And these public market vehicles are well suited for bringing like meeting that appetite where it's at. And I think we saw with lit with Saylor and and master and we're seeing it with, with Joe and what he's doing with the sharp link gaming.
00;11;16;03 - 00;11;36;03
Derek
I think we're now starting to see it with other the other vehicles. The tensor I've seen, I think 4 or 5 pitch to me. I've seen them for hyper liquid and now we're starting to see it for these blended ether accumulation vehicles that also tack on an NFT strategy as part of like the yield generating strategy to help kind of like create additional premium to Nav.
00;11;36;08 - 00;11;46;15
Aaron
I'm a little worried about the T. The NFT ones, like the ether strategy ones, make a bit more sense to me, but I am a little worried about the NFT ones. But maybe we we could circle back to that.
00;11;46;18 - 00;11;52;24
Derek
No, no, let's talk about it now, because I think it's definitely bring some stuff up. Let's let's go point by point, because I've been thinking a lot about this too.
00;11;52;27 - 00;12;11;12
Aaron
Yeah, I think I mean, it's exciting. You know, the mental model I've been using in my head is really just distribution. So, you know, we saw like YouTube kind of get distributed to TVs and they had a whole new audience. Right? Not everybody has mobile phones. Not everybody has computers or feels comfortable with them. You know. So you were able to kind of get YouTube on TV.
00;12;11;14 - 00;12;42;28
Aaron
I feel like that thing was where those types of moves were kind of quiet, but probably really expanded YouTube's distribution and kind of set them up so that they could begin to kind of tackle legacy cable and other traditional, you know, television distribution channels. I feel like kind of the same thing is happening with these treasury companies. Like if if you are somebody who feels more comfortable with a traditional stock brokerage account, you know, with Charles Schwab, you know, fidelity, whatever you're using to, to kind of manage your investments.
00;12;42;28 - 00;13;03;23
Aaron
I feel like these, these treasury companies really satisfy that itch. I think it makes a lot of sense for either if we do get ETFs approved with staking, it's unlikely that 100% of the assets in the ETF will be staked just because of technical issues related to how ether is staked and and withdrawn. There's cuz kind of related to it.
00;13;03;23 - 00;13;20;26
Aaron
If a lot of people want to, you know, sell their ETF, the ETF is obligated to basically give them a redemption. So they have to have it kind of on hand. So they would have to undertake it. So we know that the ETFs are not going to be 100% staked. And it looks like the government may be inclined to permit that to happen.
00;13;20;29 - 00;13;43;00
Aaron
You know, something like an ether treasury vehicle is kind of a nice way to do that, right? You get ether, they may be able and presumably a lot of them will be able to stake more either. And then they can also over time, I think, enable shareholders of those companies to gain some exposure to certain DeFi projects or protocols that have that, you know, that are a little bit more battle tested.
00;13;43;02 - 00;14;06;21
Aaron
And hopefully if there is a bill passed, there's a bit more clarity on on how they'll be treated from a regulatory perspective. So all that I think is pretty great when you start moving into NFTs, though, I worry that if there is an issue with some treasury companies, maybe there's a lot of competition and any multiples that are perceived on the stock begin to compress.
00;14;06;21 - 00;14;21;10
Aaron
A lot of those vehicles presumably would be the first ones to trade below Nav. And at that point, I think it would create a bunch of issues and a lot of sell pressure on the market. So I'm a little bit worried about those structures when it comes to NFTs, at least at this point.
00;14;21;10 - 00;14;25;28
Derek
Just to. So there are already some vehicles trading blown out, like there's a sole one, for example.
00;14;26;01 - 00;14;26;19
Aaron
Right.
00;14;26;21 - 00;14;37;29
Derek
So maybe just to to pinpoint the actual issue, what is it about the NFTs itself that you feel like will lead to that premium to compressed down to to nav or below Nav.
00;14;38;01 - 00;14;59;16
Aaron
Yeah. So another argument and I don't know enough about this, but I've heard it. So just take the take it all with a grain of salt. But that purportedly there's hedge funds that like the volatility of Bitcoin and ether and they like the volatility of other assets too. And that's kind of their core, trading strategy. They look for highly volatile assets whether it's stock bonds different forms of commodities.
00;14;59;19 - 00;15;17;19
Aaron
And they make money in different ways by basically trading that volatility. And that's in part why you see some of these stocks trading at a multiple I don't think NFTs are particularly volatile at this point. They're in many ways almost the opposite. If you look at Cryptopunks, they've they've stayed pretty steadily priced at least in an ether basis.
00;15;17;20 - 00;15;46;03
Aaron
And I'm just not 100% sure that they'll be as attractive to that class of institutions, which just means that they're more likely potentially right, to just trade below Nav. And you would think that since the assets are in, you know, a liquid we've just kind of seen in rough, treacherous waters, in a highly volatile and growing market that, you know, structures that don't provide easy exit and liquidity and do trade below Nav.
00;15;46;05 - 00;16;11;25
Aaron
I think that happened to at the Grayscale Bitcoin Trust last cycle. And then some activist investors had to step in to kind of crack that open. And I think ultimately got that converted to an ETF as part of that process. But I don't know. I think there's a lot more to it. I think it almost seems a little bit too good to be true on some of this stuff, so I do I'm excited to kind of see more adoption, but at the same time, I do have some reservations not to throw like a lot of cold water on the excitement, but I think it's.
00;16;11;25 - 00;16;13;25
Derek
No, not at all. This start.
00;16;13;27 - 00;16;14;11
Aaron
Thinking it.
00;16;14;14 - 00;16;31;10
Derek
Yeah, yeah, I can say that this conversation, I'm having some variation of this conversation with lots of people right now. I think everyone's kind of like trying to understand what are the risk profiles associated with this. I can add a couple of thoughts that the first thing I'll say is none of these vehicles are 100% NFTs. It's far too illiquid.
00;16;31;10 - 00;16;54;21
Derek
There's too much price opacity. The liquidation risk is too great to really have anything. The NFTs strategy component of these vehicles have real size or teeth. It's 10% of the vehicle is the first thing I'll say which which is I think is that the right percentage? I don't I don't really know. I will say a lot of the ETH accumulation vehicles do have built in double digit percentages where they're allocating eath to generating yields.
00;16;54;21 - 00;17;14;17
Derek
And so if you think about this in terms of like principle, that could be used to generate further yield or additional yield, I think it's interesting. And and as a starting point to kind of think about it from that perspective, the second thing I'll say is, you know, I don't think that this works for every collection. There's just not enough market depth or, or price discovery that's happened around a lot of these collections.
00;17;14;17 - 00;17;35;23
Derek
I think there are very few collections where I would feel like, okay, this is a strategy worth pursuing, and it's the ones that have lots of iterations. You know, there's been very there's a very clear market structure at the margins. So like a floor price that can, you know, there's historical data points around to help mitigate some of like the opacity and the liquidity concerns.
00;17;35;23 - 00;17;58;14
Derek
Punks is definitely one of them, where I would say this is one where I think there's a least enough of a historical and institutional rigor that's been applied to that market structure, where incorporating some percentage of asset into an ether accumulation vehicle, I think, could make sense as an experiment to outperform holding pure eath. So I think there's an argument there that like that one trips the threshold.
00;17;58;16 - 00;18;23;14
Derek
I'd say that there's others that are start that have been on that path, that have somewhat of a very similar genetic profile with many, many iterations and think 10,000 or more have been in market for many years. There is this, let's call it market depth at the at the margin of around this floor price that allows you to kind of like track and, sell into the market at any given moment that I think could start to make sense.
00;18;23;16 - 00;18;40;16
Derek
I think we obviously all of this stuff takes time, right? Like you get more insight with more with more data, you get more data with more time. But I do think that the conversation is at least worth having at this stage. I think the third thing I'll say is a lot of these assets, the way that they've currently been priced, is after three years of accumulation.
00;18;40;16 - 00;19;04;08
Derek
So even if there is, so what I mean by that is like the market has pretty much stepped in over the last three years where there hasn't been that much, you know, transfer of assets. And so like this is this is a fair value for the, for the, the networks or the, you know, the punk floor price, like the markets have converged around this range for, for many years at this point without some sort of like extra distribution act.
00;19;04;09 - 00;19;26;15
Derek
I think there's an argument to be made that if you believe that opening up the pipes of distribution on an asset that has already exited its accumulation range, that like even if there was liquidation risk, it probably doesn't happen for a while. I could make the argument that those three things in concert actually fairly do a fairly good job of like thinking at the margins about how these things could work.
00;19;26;15 - 00;19;46;06
Derek
Now, obviously, all of these are risky. And I will say, like, my view is that most of these vehicles should actually trade at Nav. I don't think that premium process that like, is making all of these go to market. I think the goal, the realistic goal is that to your point around, you're opening up this distribution pipe for a new audience to participate.
00;19;46;09 - 00;20;05;13
Derek
This is the way that they can get exposure to these assets, because they have all of these restrictions on what they can do on chain and who they can compliance wise, who they can store values and key management and trying to navigate cold wallet UX like none of these things are appropriate for that audience. And so this is this is the way that they get access to on chain markets.
00;20;05;16 - 00;20;29;22
Derek
And even if that's true, these things should still be valued at X. Right. Like and I would say it does does, you know, having a 5 to 10% grail network with market depth NFT strategy where there's been very clear accumulation. And we're at the very end of that, and there's enough data points over the last five, six, seven years to demonstrate that there are these things are fairly priced by the markets on chain.
00;20;29;24 - 00;20;35;01
Derek
I think the risk is lower than people are saying. But I do agree with you. It's definitely something to keep an eye on.
00;20;35;02 - 00;20;36;06
Chris
Who is this for?
00;20;36;08 - 00;20;55;22
Aaron
I think it's really for traditional folks, Chris. Like I, you know, is thinking about it. You know, let's say you're a late Gen-X boomer of some sort. You've heard about Bitcoin, you've heard about, digital assets. You know, I think Novogratz used this phrase yesterday on CNBC like crypto is on a heater. You feel like and see that the government is trying to absorb it.
00;20;55;22 - 00;21;19;06
Aaron
It's on the front page of the Wall Street Journal. Right. It's mentioned on the times. Right. Other publications CNBC but you just don't know how to do it, right? Like you don't feel comfortable setting up a Coinbase account because you never heard of it. You're not. You're sophisticated, but not super sophisticated. I feel like this stuff kind of gives you some exposure to at least some of the assets, and possibly over time, like a broader swath of the ecosystem.
00;21;19;06 - 00;21;35;17
Aaron
I think that's that's it's for I just think it's a little bit premature to think that there's a lot of demand for, for digital art and collectibles. Right? I think that will manifest. But I just don't know if like traditional markets are ready for yet. So that that gives me a little bit of a pause.
00;21;35;18 - 00;21;55;11
Chris
Right. So I'm picking up what you're laying down. But then, you know, my brain is just like, well, look, if you're if you're someone who wants in on crypto just by the stupid Blackrock ETFs or okay, you've just looked at the Blackrock ETFs and you're like, no, I want to I want something a little edgier. I want something that holds 10% of pixels.
00;21;55;13 - 00;21;57;05
Chris
I think that audience is tiny.
00;21;57;07 - 00;22;15;20
Aaron
Yeah I think the audience is a little bit tiny. I also I mean, it's better on the fee side and, you know, maybe certain Rias or other folks that that kind of deal on that just feel like there may be more upside because of that multiple. Maybe that's a piece of it. It is a little bit better just because there's no fees on it.
00;22;15;23 - 00;22;28;22
Aaron
And if there is like a, like a yield or, you know, an eath based return that can be generated, I think that like you can imagine some people saying, hey, you could do the ETF, but maybe you do this instead.
00;22;28;25 - 00;22;56;03
Chris
Yeah, I just find it really hard to believe that there's enough of a world out there for this, for multiple versions of these things to run long term, because what you're describing to me is something where like, yeah, I'm a golden, golden private wealth or I'm an icon and I've got some high net worth individual who, like, has got all their bases covered and then just want to like you know, some whimsical alternative asset exposure every once in a while to like, scratch an itch.
00;22;56;03 - 00;23;28;23
Chris
And I just don't feel like that's a big enough world out there. But, you know, whatever. We don't need to bang on that. The other thing I find interesting about these things is from a game theory perspective, if you're holding the underlying, there's no need for you to parties in these, and there's no real need for you to sell into things like they're creating a situation, the digital asset trust in which they're forced to buy and they're forced to buy, not programmatically, but they're forced to buy like through the governance and rules of their fund.
00;23;28;25 - 00;23;58;10
Chris
Which means, you know, the more money comes in, the more exposure you need to the underlying in order to, you know, hit the criteria of their fund. And so these guys are basically, from my point of view, if they succeed, they're just creating a situation in which they're raising the price is the underlying. Therefore, do you hold the underlying if you hold punk's, squiggles, etc., you just sit on your hands and you play a game with these guys, you know, the punks.
00;23;58;12 - 00;24;16;17
Chris
Punks listening is traditionally about 10%. And, you know, I've seen it as high as, like 14. I don't think I've ever seen it slip below nine. And so let's just say at any given moment in time, there's a thousand punks available on market. That's not a lot of punks, you know, relative to what these people want to do.
00;24;16;17 - 00;24;44;02
Chris
And so, look, if they succeed, I think it creates all sorts of interesting, you know, secondary effects. And we are the market, we are the supply side. And so, you know, we can start goofing around with the doubt. And we can start forcing them into buying these things, you know, at ridiculous prices. At the same time, you know, it's possible that a lot of these are just going to make their initial and, you know, they have to make their initial big early buys.
00;24;44;05 - 00;25;03;10
Chris
And then, you know, from there maybe they don't see the inflows. You know, they they've got their their backers, you know, they've got people who are underwriting these funds. They make those buys and then they just don't get a lot more down the pike. And so, you know, maybe these things don't trigger that sort of upward price action either, because, you know, they need demand in order to do it.
00;25;03;11 - 00;25;21;09
Aaron
Yeah. I mean it's super interesting. And I don't you know, I do think that that is present. I mean, isn't that kind of present though with even strategy, you know, if you feel comfortable going through the hurdles to custody, you know, Bitcoin like why why would you sell it into the market. It's kind of the same the same posture.
00;25;21;12 - 00;25;25;18
Chris
It is the same. Except there's 21 million bitcoins. There's 10,000 punks.
00;25;25;20 - 00;25;47;19
Aaron
Yeah I mean I do think at some point and I don't exactly know how it's going to happen, but these multiples will compress. They'll start some of these vehicles because there is a flood of them are going to trade under Nav. And I don't know exactly what that looks like, but I can't imagine that that's good. I think that will will reverse any buy pressure that we're discussing and create some sell pressure.
00;25;47;21 - 00;25;54;20
Aaron
So I don't know. That's kind of where I am in that journey. But but Derek, do you see that? I mean, maybe this is a big word for the past two years.
00;25;54;20 - 00;26;25;10
Derek
No no no no, that's the big risk. That's definitely the big risk. I mean, you're you're the truth is, is like if it's just one of these things, you can kind of like model around it and think about, you know, it doesn't. I think we as a market have gotten very good at pricing things on chain and understanding inflows and outflows in a way that can help predict or at least, you know, run to and and think about kind of like the drivers for why things become valuable that are fixed supply and are networked.
00;26;25;12 - 00;26;46;18
Derek
I think when you start to have multiple strategies running concurrently with multiple types of risk profiles, with all sorts of different cadences in terms of how they're approaching these markets. Yeah, I mean, it becomes I mean, it becomes pretty difficult to kind of like understand how this is all going to play out. I will say, like, it isn't something that we have a ton of.
00;26;46;21 - 00;27;06;02
Derek
Yeah, we don't have a ton of like insight around like how that would work. I think the thing you're flagging is like, for better or for worse, there are usually times in our markets, in crypto historically, let's just say for the last 15 years, we're at some point in these run ups like fundamentals and price just detached from one another.
00;27;06;04 - 00;27;28;19
Derek
Typically, like the word, the phrase phrasing people like to use, just like the blow off top right. It's just like there's just so much by pressure that it basically, we depart so much from rationality and, you know, the that creates this delta that then people look at are like, hey, that doesn't feel like the appropriate price for this asset or the value that this asset's creating.
00;27;28;22 - 00;27;49;27
Derek
People start to sell and that is very reflexive on the way down. And all of a sudden it's kind of a race for the exits. And it's sometimes it can be cause through some macro event where people are like, well, I should probably go risk off here, but if everyone's going risk off at the same time in an asset that's totally departed and dislocated from its fundamentals around its price, like that's a pretty scary situation.
00;27;49;27 - 00;28;17;08
Derek
And so the I think the edge case and the downside that people are looking at with these vehicles, these accumulation vehicles is like, okay, this is cool. Like price number will go up more, more money, more distribution, asset prices will increase. I think it's a little bit trickier to say, okay, what happens in six months or 12 months or a year or two years from now when markets go risk off and all these assets on balance sheet are a little, maybe a little overpriced.
00;28;17;10 - 00;28;39;04
Derek
And on chain markets are now starting to kind of sell off. And these things are now starting to dip below Nav. Now you've got shareholders who are concerned. There's, you know, shareholder lawsuits that are starting to come out. Some of these vehicles need to unwind. They need to start selling assets and liquidating. That's a that's a very different situation than the one I think all of these vehicles are going out to market with.
00;28;39;04 - 00;28;44;25
Derek
And so that's something that you have to think about and be cognizant of. So yeah, I, I think this is the risk. This is the big risk.
00;28;45;02 - 00;28;47;23
Aaron
And I think I mean we are an off chain summer. Right?
00;28;47;23 - 00;28;50;10
Chris
So off came summer baby. Let's go.
00;28;50;13 - 00;29;10;23
Aaron
You know we have seen kind of like some innovation you know trickle down a bit in digital asset space over the past year. Just number of startups like I think that reverse itself. But it feels like if there is risk that's accumulating, it's probably accumulating around around these, these vehicles. And I don't think it's going to infect them all.
00;29;10;23 - 00;29;35;21
Aaron
And I do think that they serve a purpose. Chris, like I do think there's an audience for some of this, you know, even just being able to like stake and, you know, I think you're going to see some of these vehicles begin to explore re staking when that's that's ready via igen and, you know, gaining some, you know, exposure to DeFi which should have some additional regulatory clarity I don't know I feel like that proposition is compelling.
00;29;35;23 - 00;30;00;12
Aaron
The multiples feel hard to sustain. But at the same time, you know, we've seen in traditional stocks, I'm sure you see this to Derek and Chris. You see there's two like there's multiples. Just keep on expanding. So maybe it doesn't happen. And that worry is a little unfounded. I get like very jumbled up in my head. Just kind of thinking through thinking through all this super excited just to see, you know, people begin to think about digital assets and kind of moving deeper into the installation phase.
00;30;00;14 - 00;30;12;12
Aaron
It definitely feels like we we've done or through that now I want to see kind of like the cool, interesting new projects that can be built using this tech. So I'm super I'm super pumped for that.
00;30;12;18 - 00;30;34;05
Derek
I'll say one last thing before we move on to to the cool stuff, or if anyone else wants to add them. I'm curious if others have thoughts, but I was just going to say if we just rewind back, I don't know, ten minutes to the point I was making around like ways that these eath accumulation vehicles can add a little bit more risk on the yield generation strategy to create a premium compared to just vanilla s accumulation vehicles.
00;30;34;05 - 00;31;07;04
Derek
The things I flagged were okay. If you're going to add something like a strategy around NFTs, keep it to 5 to 10% to start to see how that lands around the strategy and to kind of like dip your toe into the market. Maybe you can get a little bit more aggressive 15, 20% as time goes on. The second is really sticking to this idea of things where like, you can price the market for the objects that you're these underlying objects in these networks that you're getting exposure to, which provides a little bit more transparency around the strategy.
00;31;07;04 - 00;31;29;25
Derek
On that point that I mentioned, that second point, the thing if I was going to flag any sort of like, okay, well, that's not necessarily how I would do it. I don't know if going after medium or ultra rare Grail style NFTs and parking them in these vehicles is actually advantageous for a few reasons. One, these things are notoriously difficult to price, right?
00;31;29;25 - 00;31;51;15
Derek
Like these things are, you know, bidirectional in terms of appreciation and depreciate, just like, you know, based on how somebody woke up one day and having to mark this thing to market in a vehicle that prides itself in transparency and is boring and will be priced based on transparency, that to me feels like a square peg round hole a bit.
00;31;51;15 - 00;32;10;27
Derek
I'm not so sure that that's the right move, unless you're valuing the asset far below. It's what you know. It's estimated net worth is closer to kind of like, you know, a floor plus or a floor premium. Obviously, we all know that. Like you put a hoodie punk out there in the market and it probably goes much, much higher at multiples than the floor.
00;32;10;27 - 00;32;30;15
Derek
But there's something about that strategy that's just not totally completing the the loop for me. And so if I was going to pinpoint one risk at this stage, it would be an over indexing on things that aren't floors or things that don't have perpetual market depth at the edges for. So one of one art would be a great example.
00;32;30;17 - 00;32;44;28
Derek
Or things that you know are the ultra grails of a collection. I will say like there is a risk dimension to that, that I just don't love as much as I do. Pricing things where there's actual a market bid 24 seven.
00;32;45;03 - 00;33;06;20
Chris
I mean, we just saw seven ish hoodies, trade, trade this morning. And yeah, they get a forex premium. The floor. What happens, I guess, when you're forced to start working your way upstream because you can't acquire floors, and then you got to start saying, well, I have to acquire these, and then I'm going to try to peg, you know, trade to floor ratio on it.
00;33;06;20 - 00;33;19;10
Chris
And yeah, it gets like that's the problem is fungibility. You run out of like easy fungibility quick in these models. And then your alternatives are great. So we'll say if.
00;33;19;10 - 00;33;44;03
Derek
It was me like I would probably orient these groups to sticking towards highly liquid and liquid is relative but highly liquid floors in these very, very kind of like dressed collections, I just think and more will surface as time goes on. But to me it's it. The store analogy starts to morph into kind of like territory that I don't love from a pricing perspective.
00;33;44;08 - 00;33;52;16
Derek
Once you start waving your hand, like waving your hand in the air and saying like, I think it's valued at this. I think that is a risk dimension that I would probably call out right now.
00;33;52;18 - 00;34;08;23
Chris
Oh, we've had a lot of experience with that ourselves. And so, yes, I think we intimately understand the, I don't know, perils and pitfalls of holding digital objects that are priced above floors and have, infrequent or erratic liquidity.
00;34;08;25 - 00;34;31;02
Aaron
Yeah. I mean, I do think, you know, like, I think whether or not these get like fully adopted and whether or not these treasury companies are the right place for entities. I just think the, the fact that digital asset and the is maturing means that you probably will just see more liquidity flowing to all markets. You know, Erc20 markets and then, you know, all centralized and decentralized markets.
00;34;31;02 - 00;34;53;06
Aaron
And then I think also in part on the NFT side, they are super reflexive. People do charge them. They do like to collect them. They are limited, scarce assets. Derek. Right. As, as you've so, eloquently described in the past. So I feel like all this stuff could change. You know, I've changed. I've changed. Someone is going to be a little wild, guys.
00;34;53;08 - 00;34;55;09
Chris
RWA man is getting over you.
00;34;55;09 - 00;35;01;10
Derek
Love that. That name option summer, that's like the perfect. It's the perfect nomenclature.
00;35;01;12 - 00;35;08;13
Chris
Well, we've got our episode title for the week, so that's wonderful. It's always nice to bang that problem out on the call.
00;35;08;15 - 00;35;24;22
Pri
One thing, not the not to be that glass half empty person with these dots. But when this inevitably ends poorly, you think that people will. They'll be like activists, investors and like hostile takeovers to get access to. Like.
00;35;24;24 - 00;35;36;08
Aaron
I was actually thinking stuff. Yeah. I mean, maybe the right strategy is to set up a vehicle that cracks open the the defunct, you know, trading under nav, treasury companies.
00;35;36;10 - 00;35;45;26
Pri
Yeah. Like, well, an LLC that just buys all these and like goes public with that and then we just are thinking like the East Treasury Company, we get Ethan's discount.
00;35;45;29 - 00;35;53;13
Aaron
You need like a Jim Chanos of. Is that how you pronounce his last name? The epic short seller just like somebody who has more of that mind.
00;35;53;15 - 00;35;54;06
Pri
Yeah.
00;35;54;09 - 00;36;17;12
Chris
The beautiful thing is this could get crypto off chain. Because one thing crypto, especially a certain wing in the NFT world, loves to, loves to get their hooks into and tear into pieces until they can, realize that that arbitrage. Right. Like, look at nouns. I mean, nouns was like a year and a half long siege of their treasury and the whole nav thing.
00;36;17;12 - 00;36;32;29
Chris
And so maybe we get a bunch of crypto NFT gen arbitrage ers to join forces with the activist investors, investors of the world. I don't know what's the barbarians at the gate like pugs at the gate is that is that RWA man's, looming threat?
00;36;33;02 - 00;36;45;21
Pri
That actually would be hilarious. I mean, it would be hilarious. It would be like, it's just like constitutional redux, although it seems very difficult to just have a bunch of online legions do that. But there's going to be like.
00;36;45;22 - 00;36;54;10
Chris
Oh my God, that would be amazing if we started getting doused in up to fund activist investor takeovers of underwater, that.
00;36;54;13 - 00;37;08;20
Pri
I mean, that that actually would be like, I mean, that's like there are going to be legitimate private equity funds that probably go do this or like hedge funds that probably go in and do this and actually have the infrastructure to do it. But it would be bad as if like an online group did it.
00;37;08;23 - 00;37;29;23
Aaron
Yeah, I don't know about the online group, but it's been a good strategy. Right. Like the there was some vehicles that purchased right. Even claims against Mount Gox. I think a lot of those have been successful just being, you know, long on on these things just because they're, you know, it is a hyper volatile asset. Obviously everything that we say here is not investment advice and there's a lot of risk to it.
00;37;29;26 - 00;37;45;21
Chris
What do you say? There's no risk at all associated with becoming an activist investor to try to free plug is trapped in vehicles that are trading below Nav. Yeah I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Okay, that was all being facetious and does not represent financial advice.
00;37;45;24 - 00;37;48;00
Aaron
Yeah. No financial advice here guys.
00;37;48;02 - 00;38;26;06
Chris
One thing that we can like zoom up for a little bit and the crypto is a giant trampoline in terms of creating value. The problem with the trampoline is it requires injections of liquidity, right? It only works on money flows in. And given that I don't know, we've just spent 40 minutes talking about, NFT digital asset treasury companies, we've clearly identified where the injections of liquidity are coming from, which therefore means the conditions are in place for all sorts of, you know, on chain alternative assets from NFTs to, alt coins to start hitting these, you know, value trampolines and pushing up in price.
00;38;26;09 - 00;38;26;27
Pri
Yeah.
00;38;26;29 - 00;38;33;06
Chris
Bullish conditions are beyond forming. They're now materializing into systemic forces.
00;38;33;08 - 00;38;57;00
Pri
Yeah. I mean you can see it over the last week just even though I'm using punks as like an index of, you know, one aspect of digital assets like even that has moved up like 20% in a week. I think the conditions are starting to form for sure, do you think? But we talked about this, but I feel like, you know, Derek feels like we're in the middle towards the end, which to me at least the first time I feel like we're actually at the start of something new.
00;38;57;02 - 00;39;01;15
Pri
And part of that is just the regulatory stuff, because I think that's just going to change so much.
00;39;01;17 - 00;39;22;09
Aaron
I mean, the the bookcase would be it's like, you know, what happened in Web2, right? Like it, it shook off and starting in, what, 0304 by like oh five and six, it really started gaining steam. Like that's when you got YouTube, Facebook, a lot of those, those huge companies. I think I got the dates right there, but if I didn't, I apologize.
00;39;22;11 - 00;39;40;19
Aaron
But then, you know, it really was a decade of just, you know, the internet growing in a in, a material way every year. And so you could imagine that that type of a future that happens. I still my personal belief is, you know, what we saw over the past 18 months was really just a repricing of Bitcoin.
00;39;40;19 - 00;39;58;13
Aaron
Based on the ETFs. There wasn't really anything net new in the market. I think there's and I think there was actually a lawsuit filed just raising a specter and questions as to whether or not even some of the meme coin stuff was legitimate if not coordinated. We'll see if that's true or not and not claiming that it is.
00;39;58;20 - 00;40;00;27
Aaron
So maybe this is kind of the start.
00;40;00;29 - 00;40;20;12
Pri
One question I have, relatedly, because I feel like it kind of trickles into like just mass retail use of crypto is how how soon do you think it takes for your average person to start using stablecoins? Is that going to take a couple of years to actually trickle into culture and the environment, or does it happen faster than that?
00;40;20;12 - 00;40;35;19
Chris
You'd have to probably say, how long did you know things like Apple Pay take to kick in, and I don't I still don't use any of that stuff. My credit, Carter Cash for me, I don't need any of that crap on my my phone. So I can't tell you, but I don't know, maybe you use this stuff like this out of five year.
00;40;35;21 - 00;40;50;07
Pri
I don't even know when the Apple Pay was released, but I probably was an early user of it. Like, I'm pretty much don't even carry a wallet anymore if I don't have to, so I don't. Yeah, I'm trying to trying to remember when that actually became a thing. But it's a that's a good comp. Actually. I should go look at that.
00;40;50;09 - 00;40;58;29
Chris
Hey, can we, pivot for a second and talk about a beloved digital object that we all share in who's eye catching a little strays on the timeline out there?
00;40;58;29 - 00;41;00;13
Derek
Is this our alien?
00;41;00;15 - 00;41;27;19
Chris
It is our alien. Our four alien became subject of copypasta yesterday. Man of all people, to, be the one to fire the first broadside. And this isn't a new opinion from, on, so, so and so. I'm sorry. So and so, you know, but like, Lesnar's ape moved so, so and so is had a long term position that apes are, really the gem of the punk's collection.
00;41;27;19 - 00;41;56;00
Chris
And he does not care for aliens. And he, threw tweet out there that said, you don't think the Jpeg on the left is infinitely more appealing than the Jpeg on the right, and you are truly lost. There is no hope, and the Jpeg on the left would be, the ape with the cowboy hat and the one on the right would happen to be our, our purple hat alien, our beautiful boy, our store value, our anchoring asset, and the world's greatest NFT collection.
00;41;56;03 - 00;42;10;06
Chris
The DS piled in right after that with his, 3D paid hoodie. Just copy paste. Doing it was off to the races, but, our poor boy here, what do you guys have to say about these, unwarranted attacks on the most beloved NFT in the world?
00;42;10;07 - 00;42;29;24
Derek
They hate us because they ain't us, baby. Really? I think I think it's funny, I I've been I've actually really enjoyed it. I think it's pretty funny. I also just say like, dude, the just crypto Twitter is maybe my greatest source of entertainment. There's always something to laugh about on crypto. Twitter yesterday was no different. I thought I thought it was pretty funny.
00;42;29;26 - 00;42;36;19
Pri
Also, like I'm cool with people like using our punks for these like memetic things because it's just getting the more I'm like.
00;42;36;19 - 00;42;39;11
Derek
Just not work at baby. Yeah. And the heavy lifting for us.
00;42;39;12 - 00;42;40;22
Pri
Yeah. Thank you Chris.
00;42;40;27 - 00;42;57;01
Derek
A lot of people don't know this, but Chris was, our most active maintainer of the of our alien punks personality there for for code. I want to say, like, over a year, maybe for a long time. I don't know if you're if you're ready to resume your duty there, Chris, but I think I, I think it might be time.
00;42;57;04 - 00;43;14;17
Chris
I step in there from time to time when it's when it's called upon. But generally I don't take an active hand there anymore. I like to think of our alien now, like living up on a hill, contemplating what it means to be a store of value. It was a step removed from the world. I don't think he likes it.
00;43;14;17 - 00;43;28;21
Chris
I think he's pretty bored by the whole affair, but I think he's resigned to the fact that he is not out there in the shitposting trenches, and that he's just supposed to park is but and become more and more valuable day by day.
00;43;28;23 - 00;43;35;18
Aaron
Yeah. I mean, I think that position that an ape is more valuable than an alien is completely absurd.
00;43;35;20 - 00;43;38;17
Pri
I'm not sure valuable. I think it's more attractive.
00;43;38;19 - 00;43;40;04
Chris
Yeah, because this is an asset. I don't.
00;43;40;04 - 00;43;44;24
Aaron
Think it's I mean, I find the esthetics of all the.
00;43;45;02 - 00;43;46;12
Pri
Crypto people love ape.
00;43;46;12 - 00;44;08;03
Aaron
Ape, monkey related collectibles. I find it I don't know, it's not. That's not my, not my bag at all. So I have a hard time seeing that opinion kind of age. Well, even putting aside the fact that, you know, aliens are are rare, I do think that they I don't know, I think they're cooler, especially the purple ones.
00;44;08;06 - 00;44;09;20
Pri
Especially if you're Purple Heart.
00;44;09;23 - 00;44;16;15
Chris
Someone should start a digital ad trust in which they promised you programmatically accumulate. Purple had aliens.
00;44;16;18 - 00;44;22;11
Aaron
I mean, you know, I think Garyvee has collected quite a number of those two. They're handsome, but he can't.
00;44;22;11 - 00;44;25;00
Chris
There's only one. Our alien is like a 1 to 1.
00;44;25;05 - 00;44;27;15
Aaron
I meant I thought you meant all purple had. There's there's.
00;44;27;15 - 00;44;30;21
Chris
Oh, no. No, they are, are aliens. Yes.
00;44;30;22 - 00;44;32;17
Pri
Some of the purple had that.
00;44;32;19 - 00;44;49;11
Chris
Why don't we just spin up a purple had that and start buying yetis. And I'd love to, like, literally started zero and meme value into existence. The purple had that right. Would promise to buy a clone super Yeti. Sup, doc? So obviously.
00;44;49;13 - 00;44;49;26
Pri
Yeah.
00;44;50;03 - 00;44;54;28
Aaron
Oh, listen, this is does not sound good. Chris. This sounds bad.
00;44;55;00 - 00;44;56;15
Chris
What are you talking you're going to get?
00;44;56;17 - 00;45;00;05
Aaron
Are you going to grab some crypto blots to just to rule it out?
00;45;00;08 - 00;45;04;18
Chris
Well, yeah, we need some generative exposure. Right. Let's get the blots in there. Oh, man.
00;45;04;21 - 00;45;06;04
Pri
There's no purple head there.
00;45;06;04 - 00;45;27;17
Chris
I imagine somewhere within all of the Rorschach output of, crypto blobs, we can find something that resembles capturing the essence and spirit of the iconic purple hat. Crypto blot number one, three, two, four, in which blah, blah, blah, you know, we can torture our way into getting some of them.
00;45;27;20 - 00;45;31;22
Pri
I think a top signal is like a debt acquiring a crypto plot for me.
00;45;31;23 - 00;45;33;13
Chris
That that's when you're cashing out free.
00;45;33;19 - 00;45;36;17
Pri
That's what I'm out. So absolutely out.
00;45;36;23 - 00;45;42;19
Chris
You should write a good Alexander style 4000 word tweet on the subject.
00;45;42;21 - 00;45;49;29
Pri
Yeah. Just yeah, do that. That a post actually was good. But anyways, we don't we don't need to get into that.
00;45;49;29 - 00;46;01;00
Chris
Aaron. How how alarmed would you be if we started like launching these, you know, schizo stream of consciousness connected to dot AI doom our manifesto tweets.
00;46;01;03 - 00;46;18;27
Aaron
I would be shocked because I just don't I can't picture doing that. I do think, you know, some of those, like, long screeds are always interesting. They just are like thought provoking. So I give something to that, I do. I do think there is something to, unanimous accounts and just being able to push the boundaries of some thoughts in interesting ways.
00;46;18;27 - 00;46;25;07
Aaron
So I always, whatever sends me those things. I definitely read them. And then I definitely make fun of her afterwards. So.
00;46;25;10 - 00;46;37;28
Pri
You know, like, okay, you're it's like that. It's like that, that succession meme where he's like talking. He's like, you've you're too online. You've lost the context. I'm like, I sometimes people step out a little bit.
00;46;38;04 - 00;46;40;12
Aaron
Yeah, yeah. I try to be the brakes on that.
00;46;40;15 - 00;46;41;01
Pri
Yeah.
00;46;41;03 - 00;47;00;11
Aaron
I will say like just, you know, spending a little less time on, ex I think has been kind of healthy. I mean, I think that's another benefit of, of change. Summer. Like, you don't need to really spend as much time online and a lot I feel like a lot of this stuff is not, like fully happening, like in the trenches of social media platforms, which which I think is a good, good thing.
00;47;00;11 - 00;47;02;08
Aaron
And also like a maturation of the space too.
00;47;02;08 - 00;47;12;23
Chris
It's now happening between the family offices of Jerry Jones and the family offices of Robert Leshner and army of advisors, custodians, treasurers.
00;47;12;26 - 00;47;14;02
Aaron
Yeah, like a little bit.
00;47;14;03 - 00;47;21;06
Pri
It's a little bit. It's happening in Europe. People are just euro maxing on the Adriatic and and making deals. Yeah.
00;47;21;06 - 00;47;41;12
Aaron
Or it's starting to look a little bit more like traditional markets right. You know a lot of this stuff you, you for a variety of reasons, you want to kind of coordinate off chain and then you do bring it to market when you're permitted to kind of to do that. I don't know, I think there's, there's something I do hope that what we're just seeing is kind of audience expansion.
00;47;41;19 - 00;48;06;29
Aaron
And people are seeing kind of this core proposition of having natively digital networked objects, whether it's Bitcoin, ether, the other, you know, digital assets that are that are attempting to improve the space and all of our lovely collectibles, which hopefully over time continue to just attract great internet creators and great raises to the top and not kind of the race to the bottom that we've seen in lots of different pockets of the internet.
00;48;07;02 - 00;48;30;01
Aaron
So I'm still steadfastly believe in that vision. I'm excited that we're getting like, clear rules of the road so that we can begin to, you know, build and experiment in a productive way. And I'm hoping that, you know, these rough edges just start to get pushed into the background so we don't have to think about or witness or watch the blow by blows of kind of, online casinos of sorts.
00;48;30;05 - 00;48;59;00
Chris
Well said. We we certainly reached the limits of what we can do in a punitive PvP crowd, markets in which the only game in town is to cut each other to pieces and try to pull from everyone's pockets. And so it would be lovely to switch gears into an abundant, you know, up on the liquidity coming in marketplace in which we don't need to fear every single action is going to retreat, going to, trigger an SEC review.
00;48;59;02 - 00;49;02;14
Chris
So like, let's step into a new world and see what happened to this go around. Yeah.
00;49;02;14 - 00;49;32;18
Aaron
And I'm hope. And then those regs come in place and you know there will be oversight. But hopefully that people begin to just know what they can and can't do. The lawyers can provide appropriate advice. The entrepreneurs can build useful products. You know, we can play around with what, you know, global 24 seven. You know, financial coordination layer kind of looks like, you know, I also still think in the long run, and maybe this is part of the strategy with some of these NFT debt systems.
00;49;32;18 - 00;49;52;14
Aaron
I still think in the long run, we're not really trading stocks and bonds. I think we're going to see a lot of change that happens over the next, you know, five, ten years, changes in the way people work, changes in who we work with, whether it's with AI systems or not, changes in the way that, you know, different people are able to show their support for it.
00;49;52;14 - 00;50;03;20
Aaron
So I just think there's a lot of change, and I'm excited that we're kind of in like a position, at least here in the States, to begin to explore that in, in more depth. I think it's gonna be great. I give you some hope, I give you.
00;50;03;20 - 00;50;05;01
Pri
Yeah, I know, I know.
00;50;05;03 - 00;50;06;12
Aaron
Should we end with some hoping?
00;50;06;15 - 00;50;17;06
Pri
I'm like, Duma over here, but I actually do have. Am I actually more optimistic than pessimistic? But like, after doing so many of these cycles, I just, like, can't help but to be, like, badly scarred.
00;50;17;06 - 00;50;21;00
Aaron
Yeah, I mean, I and I think that that's the challenge. It's kind of like knowing, you know, we're.
00;50;21;00 - 00;50;22;22
Pri
Getting our priors.
00;50;22;25 - 00;50;39;20
Aaron
But it's also like doubling down and like, I wouldn't be surprised if, you know, once you get that regulatory clarity, you know, people loved love collecting things. You know, we talked about a couple episodes back just even things like Fanatic Fest in New York and other cities like that urge is still there. People like to have a good time with other people online.
00;50;39;23 - 00;50;59;18
Aaron
They like to have like groups and affiliations, and a lot of these assets really target that. And I'm hoping kind of the next generation of startups start exploring that in like productive ways. And with some reasonable guardrails. I'm hoping that we get there, which is which is just cool and, you know, and then instead of having to swim upstream, you're just kind of swimming with with that.
00;50;59;18 - 00;51;04;07
Aaron
And you can kind of grow that in a, in a productive way. Anyway, let's leave it at that. Guys.
00;51;04;09 - 00;51;12;17
Chris
All right. That was the off chain summer copium sesh. Net society episode 40. Give us the intro and let's close it out.
00;51;12;24 - 00;51;32;00
Pri
Let's do it. Welcome to Nerd Society everyone. It's me, Chris, Aaron and Derek here to talk to you about the latest news, crypto art and more. Just as a friendly reminder, these thoughts and opinions are own and not of our employer. And also this is not financial advice. Thanks.
00;51;32;04 - 00;51;50;15
Aaron
Yeah, now.