Boundaries Are Not Walls

Show Notes

What if the thing you’ve been calling a boundary is actually pushing you further away from the connection you’re craving? In this episode of Lumen, hosts Christopher Mooney, LCSW and Kenyon Phillips, LMSW unpack the cultural confusion around boundaries—challenging the popular idea that “having boundaries” means cutting people off, shutting down, or building emotional walls. Instead, they reframe boundaries as something far more dynamic: a form of communication that helps regulate what we give and receive in relationships. Drawing from clinical insight and lived experience, they explore the difference between reacting and responding, and how true boundaries are rooted in self-awareness, not control over others. The conversation breaks down different types of boundaries—physical, emotional, mental, and even temporal—while examining how trauma, anxiety, and "social media therapy" can distort our understanding of safety and threat. They also address the discomfort that comes with setting boundaries, including guilt, people-pleasing withdrawal, and the ongoing need to reinforce them with compassion rather than rigidity. At its core, this episode invites listeners to move away from black-and-white thinking and toward something more human: flexible, thoughtful boundaries that create space not just for protection, but for connection. 

To book a free consultation with Christopher, Kenyon, or the other providers at Lumen Therapy Collective, visit lumentherapycollective.com. 

Follow Right Here on Instagram: @lumen_therapy_collective

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Right Here is for educational and informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapy, diagnosis, or treatment. If you’re experiencing a mental health crisis, please contact local emergency services or a trusted mental health professional.

What is Right Here?

Right Here is a mental health podcast that explores the psychological patterns shaping our relationships, choices, and inner lives. Hosted by therapists Christopher Mooney, LCSW, and Kenyon Phillips, LMSW, each episode offers grounded, compassionate conversations rooted in clinical insight and real human experience. No jargon. No judgment. Just clear, thoughtful dialogue designed to help listeners better understand themselves and the people around them.

SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Lumen, a
podcast that sheds light on

mental health, relationships,
and what it means to be human.

I'm Christopher Mooney, LCSW.

SPEAKER_00: And I'm Kenyon
Phillips, LMSW.

Each episode we unpack
psychological patterns that

affect our relationships.

No jargon, no judgment.

SPEAKER_01: Just thoughtful
conversations to help you

understand yourself and others a
little more clearly.

So today I thought we could talk
about boundaries.

And this came up.

I was thinking about this
yesterday quite a bit.

And I was thinking about how
much information is out there.

And part of the reason that was
like social media.

Yeah.

Like part of the reason that we
do this is to kind of like

counter, you know, a lot of like
kind of people just throwing

these psychological ideas out.

SPEAKER_00: Bust some myths.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

There's so there's all this talk
around boundaries.

The other one, so there's a lot
of terms, and I think it's it's

this is actually good for us to
get into over the next few

weeks, but there's like people
overuse or misuse the word

gaslighting.

Yes.

They misuse the word narcissism,
narcissism.

They misuse the the the term
boundaries and just kind of like

what that really means versus
kind of I think how people all

over the internet use it.

Right.

And then the other phenomenon
that I would like to get into at

some point is everyone kind of
using online tools to determine

whether they are neurodivergent
and on the spectrum.

Because there's a lot of people
that I hear saying, hey, I think

I'm I think I have autism
spectrum disorder or Asperger is

based on, you know, an online
assessment.

An online assessment or
something that I saw somebody

say online.

And as a clinician, that's it,
it's frustrating because I

think, and and you probably
experienced this too, and I know

others, other clinicians do as
well.

It's frustrating because
typically those those diagnoses,

we're not even making those
diagnoses.

Those diagnoses are made through
a battery of psychological and

neuropsychological testing.

Yeah.

And we know people who do that
testing.

It's David, yeah, and it's uh
Dr.

David Rowe, a United Assessment.

And you know, that's it, it's
such a battery of tests, and

it's so specific to to make that
determination that a a quick

TikTok survey is not how you're
gonna find out whether there's

neurodiversity.

SPEAKER_00: Maybe not the best
the best means.

SPEAKER_01: And so we're gonna
get into some of that today,

talking about you know, some of
the issues around how this

information is just being
misused out there.

But I really want to talk about
boundaries and how important

that is.

Because I think that there's
something that that gets

misrepresented a lot.

And boundaries are are really
important as a human being to

have.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

There's this, I think the the
sort of pop culture version of

boundaries that I keep seeing
people talk about is like I have

boundaries if I'm cutting
somebody off.

Like I just need to cut people
off, I need to say no, and then

that's me practicing self-care.

When in reality, it's like it's
not a it's not a wall.

No boundary isn't isn't this
like insurmountable thing.

It's fluid.

I mean, the boundaries the way
we talk about them.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

Boundaries can be fluid, right?

They can be, and they're
different depending on the

person we're dealing with.

Yeah.

So boundaries with family
members are different than maybe

boundaries with colleagues at
work.

And but you're right, like
there's I think this is it's

kind of seen as almost like this
personality trait, right?

Like aggressive.

Yeah.

I have boundaries, kind of
becomes this statement and this

proclamation rather than rather
than this kind of like rather

than you know, this kind of
behavior and and kind of

understanding of where where we
begin in others' end.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: And I think that
that's that's an important thing

to remember here is where where
we begin in others' end and and

how that can actually move
depending on the relationship as

well.

Absolutely.

So it's it's it's not it's not
this proclamation of a, hey, you

know, I don't like what you
said, so I'm gonna cut you off.

As as you were saying.

And I think we've seen a lot of
this with gosh, especially with

politics, right?

Since 2016, I think it was
winding up before then.

Yeah.

But I think with cancel culture
and in a lot of political

issues, and then in COVID, and
just like this perfect storm and

when everybody was quarantining,
of of just saying, Well, yeah,

I'm gonna I don't like what you
say, so I'm not gonna listen to

you anymore.

And you don't exist.

SPEAKER_00: And in fact, yeah,
even if you're family, I'm gonna

cut you off.

SPEAKER_01: I think especially
in in families that we see a lot

of that happening, is I can't I
can't tolerate what you're

saying.

So therefore, my my boundary is
I'm not gonna listen to you

anymore.

I'm not gonna basically even act
as if you exist.

Right.

Which is from a psychological
standpoint, extremely negative

and maladaptive.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

It's harmful.

It's so damaging.

I was gonna say, it just causes
a lot of harm when we pretend

people don't exist.

SPEAKER_01: It comes it comes
from a place of trying to

protect ourselves.

I think when we think about
making making that statement of

like I have boundaries, or these
are my boundaries.

I think it it does come from
this place of trying to to

protect ourselves and insulate
ourselves.

And I'm wondering, you know, in
your experience, where where

have you seen that, like where
people have tried to protect

themselves with boundaries?

SPEAKER_00: There are certainly
like really healthy applications

of boundaries within that
context that you're talking

about.

For instance, if an adult child
has been abused by a parent and

they find themselves in an
enmeshed relationship or a

codependent relationship with
that abusive parent, having a

boundary with that parent and
being able to say, hey, I'm not

going to participate in this
type of behavior or this

relationship anymore.

That's that's healthy.

That comes up.

It comes up with work so many
times.

And we've even talked about in
past episodes where an employee

will have boundary issues with a
boss or a supervisor or a

manager where they're being
essentially asked to do too

much.

Right.

And they'll feel like, you know,
I need to assert a boundary here

so that I can sort of like get
my sense of agency back and get

a sentence of my life back.

Those are two that come to mind
right away.

SPEAKER_01: So this idea of re
regaining a sense of agency.

And we've talked about agency
before, right?

That idea that I have I have a
say in my life.

SPEAKER_00: Is that it's yeah,
it's it's uh autonomy, agency,

control.

Okay.

Control.

We I think so much maladaptive
behavior stems from compulsion,

desire, need to control other
people.

And I think as we get healthier,
arguably, we realize the

limitations of that.

Like, wow, I really can't
control other people,

situations, circumstances,
environments.

But I can control you know,
boundaries is something that we

do have autonomy over.

We do have a control over.

I love the Victor Frankel quote
from Man's Search for Meaning,

the last of the human freedoms,
to decide one's attitude.

How we choose to view our
circumstances, we can't control

our circumstances.

We may be in terrible uh
circumstances, sure, but we can

effectively have a boundary.

We can draw a boundary, even if
we feel completely powerless

when we really look at it, I
think from a therapeutic

standpoint, a boundary can be
drawn so long as we have so long

as we're in our bodies and we
have some agency.

We have more agency perhaps than
we think.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

And so in that in that case,
when you say when you're when

you're saying we draw a
boundary, that's is is that a

hard line in the in the sand?

SPEAKER_00: It can feel like
that, especially if the person

is dealing with, you know, a
past history of abuse or trauma

of one form or another, then
yeah, I think often a boundary

does tend to look really,
really, really rigid, not just a

line in the sand, but like a a
wall.

Sure, sure.

And I think what tends to happen
as boundaries are lived in and

we get some practice having
boundaries, we realize that

there can be some fluidity.

It isn't necessarily something
that has to stand for all time

in its current state.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

And I and I think in the and the
the thing I I I like that you're

highlighting here is you know,
when we talk about that safety,

right?

And we and we think about that's
that's a really good example and

an explanation of how if if
we've been in danger, a boundary

can be really protective.

Right.

I'm not going to entertain this
anymore, I'm not going to allow

this thing in, I'm not going to
allow this to happen anymore, or

this person, or whatever it was
that was hurting us.

It's interesting because I think
a lot, and we've we've discussed

as we've discussed, I think that
one of the struggles we have as

as a culture and as a society
now, what we see a lot of people

dealing with is that everything
becomes ever everything is

interpreted as a danger.

SPEAKER_00: As a trigger.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

And and we well, we can get into
that.

But yeah, people feel triggered.

People feel they feel scared.

I think there's a level of
anxiety and and an inability to

tolerate some really
uncomfortable things.

And so I think that that's when
we start looking at that, it's

we realize that if everything
looks dangerous to us, then that

rigid boundary, that wall,
becomes a very easy solution.

Absolutely.

It's not healthy.

Because it's not healthy to walk
through life thinking

everything's dangerous either.

SPEAKER_00: No, it's it's gonna
I mean you're gonna deplete your

yourself.

And the other thing is, you
know, we see the world not as it

is.

We see the world as we are.

It's just the tendency.

And so if I am living with, for
example, post-traumatic stress

disorder, you know, like a PTSD
real where my past experiences,

traumas are very much in the
present for me, I'm gonna view

the world as a very hostile
place and I am gonna draw those

really rigid boundaries in order
to protect myself.

If I can view, if if I've if my
sort of equilibrium is more

balanced, if I'm viewing the
world not as a hostile

environment, but as a
potentially friendly

environment, a place where I
feel comfortable and safe, then

the boundaries can be, as I said
before, a little bit more fluid,

right?

A little more healthy, a little
healthier.

SPEAKER_01: Exactly.

Exactly.

So let's talk about a little
bit, you know, we'll we'll we'll

kind of discuss what boundaries
actually are.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because we're this is this is
really good, kind of looking at

like, hey, maybe here's here's
some of the the reason why we're

throwing up these walls, and
especially if we're talking

about safety.

We can get into maybe some of
the experience of people not

having boundaries and and how
that could be a really open or

there's no wall at all.

Right.

But so boundaries are they
they're kind of how we

communicate, you know, if we
think about it.

And it's it's boundaries are a
clear statement about what we

can hold and what we can't hold.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: And we start looking
at that in the way of like it's

it's kind of about you know how
we relate to other people in a

relationship.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: They're behavioral.

They're behavioral, exactly.

Exactly.

And so it it they they help us
regulate the information that we

give out, they also help us
regulate the information that we

take in.

And to be in a relationship, we
have to have that flow.

To be, and that's any
relationship.

That can be an intimate
relationship with a partner,

that can be a friendship, that
can be just with the cashier at

the grocery store.

So when we talk about
relationships, I talk about like

all human interaction.

SPEAKER_02: Right.

SPEAKER_01: And so boundaries
are they are kind of the valve,

I think, of how how that
information goes in and out.

Totally.

SPEAKER_00: And the and a
framework as well.

But the the thing that I think
can help when we're drawing

boundaries and kind of defining
boundaries for ourselves is to

realize that, and this is a big
insight for me, boundaries

aren't really about other
people's behavior.

They're about, as you said, the
valve.

They're about a valve that we
adjust in ourselves, in and of

ourselves.

And that's why I think you know,
we were talking about autonomy.

You know, boundaries are
associated with autonomy.

It's I can't control other
people's behavior, but I can

control how I respond to it.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

SPEAKER_00: And the degree to
which I I choose to participate

or not.

SPEAKER_01: It sounds again like
you're saying that that a person

has to have a good understanding
of themselves in order to make

sure that valve is working
correctly.

SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.

I think that and that's where
that's where boundaries really

start.

So many of the so much of the
time, boundaries, we think we

have to have boundaries as a
reaction.

And it starts with somebody
else's behavior.

SPEAKER_01: Remind me, remind me
the difference between reacting

and responding.

SPEAKER_00: Reacting is I'm I'll
use the overused word again,

triggered.

I'm in a I'm in a state of high
alert.

I'm not really thinking, I'm I'm
reacting.

Means I'm it can be a compulsive
or an impulsive reaction, it can

be violent, it usually doesn't
have a lot of thought involved.

It's usually something that we
regret later.

Um how about you know, you step
on my foot, I don't know you, I

say, hey, watch where you're
going.

That's me reacting.

You reacting to that is saying,
you know, you want to go?

Yeah, you want to go move.

Come at me, bro.

Come at me.

You know, that's that's
reactive.

Responding is measured.

There's usually a pause before a
response, and a response is an

autonomous, meaning a
self-controlled way to, I'll be

redundant, respond to a
potential trigger, a potential

stressor.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

And that's that's the goal.

SPEAKER_00: Considered behavior.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

Considered behavior.

We we in in all of this, and all
the things we talk about, I

think we we typically go back to
we we want response versus

reaction.

SPEAKER_00: Always.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

Reaction is that it's that
anxiety, fight or flight, kind

of like, oh my god, I'm in
danger.

Something happened, I gotta
fight back.

Stress response.

Yeah.

And respond that's reaction.

And response is I'm going to
think about, you know, I'm gonna

use the human part of me, right?

The the reasonable part to
respond to this and think about,

oh, maybe I maybe I stepped on
your foot by accident, maybe I

didn't see you there, maybe I
maybe I stumbled and

accidentally bumped into you.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

You know, and it's interesting
how a response changes the

environment immediately.

It will it will affect, I mean,
just like a reaction affects how

the other person, you know, gets
in your face or not.

Yeah.

A response really chills people
out.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it allows it
allows for grace too.

We talk, I think we talked a lot
about grace.

I've talked about it before.

It's been it's been the thing.

I don't know why I've been on it
lately.

But it's a great Jeff Buckley
album.

Yeah, it is.

I think I think that when we
when we have when we respond, we

are considering grace.

And again, grace is having grace
for ourselves and for other

people is having a relationship
with our limitations and

expectations that we haven't
met, and being kind about that.

So I think compassion come with
grace.

Those are amazing, amazing
words.

Patience and compassion, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: And what we and we
uh how much we allow ourselves,

how much we allow somebody else.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

Speaking of stepping on on feet,
one of the one of the kind of

boundaries that we can we can
look at are so we have physical

boundaries.

That's there's three different
kinds of boundaries.

There may be more, but we'll
talk about these three.

But there's physical boundaries,
which are knowing, you know,

where our body is and where that
ends, and kind of like what our

space is around us, and what
what level of touch we're

comfortable with.

And I think you kind of made
made reference to this before

when you talk about survivors of
abuse, of physical abuse, sexual

abuse, just any kind of
violence, physical violence that

we we experience, or even it can
be as simple as just somebody

accidentally bumping into us on
the subway.

Right?

We have a we have a sense of our
physical boundary.

I think I think they say like
our physical boundary typically

we need three feet of space
around us, right, in order to

walk around the world.

I remember living in New York
that that was not a possibility.

The more people you cram into a
space, the less boundary you

get, physical boundary.

SPEAKER_00: And it was so
interesting.

Like it I'm sure you have this
experience.

Get on a crowded subway train
and the tension is so high.

SPEAKER_01: You can feel it.

SPEAKER_00: Tension is so high,
inevitably.

Even if you're just going one
stop, yeah, someone will say

something to somebody, and there
will be a couple of things.

SPEAKER_01: You can feel you
know it's funny.

I yeah, we lived in New York for
almost 20 years.

I was commuting in and out at
least for 25 or almost 25.

It was I never I never realized
until I went back after I left.

So you get desensitized, and I
think that's an important thing

to to recognize here.

If you're if you're constantly
exposed to a lack of boundary,

right?

You're it changes.

As you said, it's fluid.

It's and so I remember going
back in the the first time after

we left New York to to be on the
train, and it was like, oh, I

don't, I don't like this.

And then I was like, maybe,
maybe that whole time I didn't

like it, and it, but I just
became desensitized to it.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: And then you get
into the whole like, oh, that's

probably why a cortisol and
everything else was like through

the roof at the time.

But it's I think I think that's
an it was just it was just a

funny thing to think about.

It's that tension that I felt
though, that you're referencing.

And every time I go back now, I
feel it.

I'm like, that's I don't have
to, I have some autonomy and

some agency.

I don't have to live like that.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

So but that's a wonderful, I
think, example of a physical

boundary.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: You know, like that
three feet of space.

SPEAKER_01: Exactly.

And I think it it is important
to to think about this.

Like boundaries are not just, as
I as I said, related to like

some kind of physical assault or
or infraction upon, you know,

your your freedom.

They can just be everyday little
kind of like experiences.

And that over time, when we
think about it, can be difficult

and traumatizing and lasting in
its effect.

And again, I'm using the word
trauma lightly there, kind of

like one of those other words we
we kind of like throw out there.

But when when you think about
it, it's it's just consistent

experience over time, it affects
a change on us.

For for the positive or
negative.

SPEAKER_00: No, for sure.

For sure.

Emotional boundaries are another
type of boundary that I think

don't get talked about enough,
but we we need them.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

So tell me a little bit about
emotional boundaries and what

what your understanding is of
that.

SPEAKER_00: Having good
emotional boundaries means we

don't means we sort of like stay
away from codependency.

We tend and enmeshment.

In other words, we don't take
responsibility for other

people's feelings.

That's codependency, right?

That's a part of codependency.

Okay.

Part of codependency and
enmeshment means, yeah, if you

have a bad day, I have a bad
day.

If you're happy, I'm happy.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, if you're
feeling away, then then I'm

going to have to feel that way
too.

Kind of right.

Like you, it's yeah.

That would be that would be a
lack of an emotional boundary,

wouldn't it?

SPEAKER_00: There's no boundary.

And that's why, you know, that's
why I love the word enmeshment

because it literally describes
that idea of like being caught

in the net of somebody else.

Yeah.

You know, the mesh of somebody.

Oh, totally.

But the thing about emotional
boundaries is that they are the

most commonly violated, even
more, far more than like

physical boundaries.

And if you think about it, a a
funny sort of pop culture

example is like the the mom who
makes you feel guilty.

You know, you're never cool,
you're never right, you know.

And and so anyone who sort of is
pushing you or trying to

manipulate you into having a
guilt response, they're

violating your emotional
boundaries.

Anytime someone is telling you
how to feel.

SPEAKER_01: Now that can be
direct, like you need to feel

this way, why don't you feel
this way?

Why don't you feel bad about
this?

Or it can be more subtle, right?

Yeah.

Where where it's it's it's
almost a manipulation or or the

feeling is is is kind of drawn
out of you over over time, over

experience, right?

SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.

That's going back to that silly,
you know.

Guilt guilt inducing mother
example, you know, yeah, she

could she could she could say
something very direct, like you

should be ashamed of the fact
that you haven't called me.

Or she could take a more passive
aggressive, less direct

approach, which works for a lot
of people, which is say, you

know, you call.

Oh, hi mom, how are you?

Oh, well, I guess I'm all right.

Yeah.

I've been pause.

SPEAKER_01: I've been sitting
here.

We I've been wondering where you
were, if you were gonna call.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I've just been
concerned for your safety

because you haven't called in
ooh, look, three and a half

weeks.

And then of course I'm gonna
feel like ooh.

SPEAKER_01: I feel like that
one's gonna really hit with a

few people.

SPEAKER_00: Oh, I'm fine.

I'm fine though.

I have my cookbooks.

And it's just and then you're
just like, yeah, I feel but

that's violating an emotional
boundary.

And a healthy emotional boundary
says, hey, your feelings are

yours, my feelings are mine, and
I'm not responsible for how you

feel.

I can doesn't mean I don't care
about you.

Right.

I care about how you feel.

SPEAKER_01: And my behaviors can
have an impact on how you feel,

but I'm not responsible for the
feeling that takes place.

Right.

SPEAKER_00: Ultimately we make
our own decisions about how we

feel.

I love, you know, that this is
an idea borrowed from recovery,

I think from 12-step recovery.

There are no victims, only
volunteers.

There comes a point where we
there certainly are victims in

this world.

It's not to say that they're
victims of violence and terrible

things and manipulations of all
sorts.

There does come a point, I
think, especially if somebody's

on a mental health journey or a
recovery journey, where we say,

All right, I need to take
control of my own life.

I need to respond rather than
react.

You know?

SPEAKER_01: It is, and I think I
when I when I think about how

that comes up maybe in
conversations, sometimes in

sessions, it's this idea of at
some point our our experiences,

they the outside, the outside
feelings and voices become our

voice.

SPEAKER_02: Right.

SPEAKER_01: We end up taking a
lot of that on.

So I think of that when you say
like, oh, there are no victims,

there's only volunteers.

And and when we set aside, you
know, people who are victimized

in in in some of those
experiences, but this this idea

of like the boundaries, like, oh
no, I I don't have to allow

those things.

It doesn't have to be my voice.

Right.

If you're feeling a certain way
about our interaction, I can

take that into consideration.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

SPEAKER_01: But I I have some
say over that, and you have some

say over that.

And that's that's going back to
this idea that boundaries are in

fact communication.

They they they are they are that
kind of playground for

communication, they help us
regulate what what goes in and

out.

SPEAKER_00: I love that because
I think there's a tendency to be

scared of boundaries or to be
intimidated or f by them or

angered by them.

Right.

Like, you know, like a no
trespassing.

SPEAKER_01: Because we think of
them as limits.

Yeah.

They're not limits.

SPEAKER_00: Well, I love that
when you think of it, when you

conceive of them as a form of
communication.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

SPEAKER_00: And a framework for
having a healthy dynamic, a

healthy relationship with
somebody else.

SPEAKER_01: That's a great word
to explain it.

Framework.

Yeah.

So the other boundary that we
can get into is the so we did

physical, we have emotional
boundaries, and then we have

mental and intellectual
boundaries.

Oh yes.

And these are where we have we
establish a right to our own

thoughts, opinions, and beliefs.

And this is this is it's
different than feelings, right?

Because we think about like I
have, I have right to my whether

I want to feel guilty, I have
the right whether I want to feel

sad or happy in a situation.

But now, but then we get into
this idea that I have I have a

right to my own opinion or
belief.

And this is actually where I
think we get caught caught up

more in what we see culturally
right now.

SPEAKER_00: With the politics.

With politics.

Big time.

SPEAKER_01: I don't believe in
what you believe in, and I might

think that you have a right to
believe that, but now I don't

believe that, so I'm just gonna
wall you off.

And I think that that's where
this actually really becomes

dangerous and unhealthy.

SPEAKER_00: It's yeah, because
it it's just it's we what we

need is connection.

And if, as you say, which I
endorse, boundaries are a form

of communication, that means
they're they're a bridge.

And if we are taking ideology,
you know, which I think is the

heart of these mental and
intellectual boundaries, and

using it as a as a sort of
weapon, it's it's just awful

because like you see it all the
time.

You shouldn't feel that you you
shouldn't have that opinion,

right?

You shouldn't think that way,
you shouldn't be able to do

that.

You shouldn't believe that way.

And if you don't think the way I
think, then we can't be friends.

SPEAKER_01: That's right.

Or you are this, or you are
this, you know, and fill in fill

into whatever this might be.

Right.

You know, you're too soft,
you're pink o'came, right,

socialist, or yeah, or you're a
fashionist, or you're a fascist,

or you're a Nazi, yeah, or
you're racist.

SPEAKER_00: I was on the phone
with a friend yesterday, and he

is more conservative than I am.

We have a long-standing
relationship, and he and he said

at one point, he said, you know,
I believe about 80% of what you

believe.

And that 20% where we differ
intellectually, ideologically,

yeah, is not nearly enough for
me to end my relationship with

you, my friendship with you.

And I hope it's not enough for
you to end your relationship

with me.

SPEAKER_01: Wow.

Yeah.

That's a really I love that
example, Kenyon, and I love I

love that idea of 20% isn't
enough to end this relationship.

It's something that's a good
question for people maybe to

reflect on.

What percentage is enough to end
a relationship, right?

What percentage of in in in I
think some of the complicating

factors in that, what percentage
of just I don't believe the

things you believe in is enough
to to not have this

relationship?

SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: Or what percentage
of unhealthy behavior?

Because then because I think
that differs, right?

It's good.

That's gonna be, well, you're
really unhealthy and hurtful

being, you know, I this like 10%
of the time I can't be around

that, but maybe I can tolerate
40% of your different opinions.

Right.

So it's it's I think that's
that's where boundaries become

complicated, but that we have to
have a we have to have a better

understanding of our of
ourselves, what we can handle.

Remember, boundaries are what
it's it's how we understand what

we can handle, right?

And how much we can take on and
how much we can't.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

SPEAKER_01: Because as human
beings, we need to be able to

take on things that that we
don't like.

SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.

There has to be some room for
discomfort.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we're not,
we're not, we it can't be, it

can't all feel good all the
time.

unknown: No.

SPEAKER_01: In fact, I think
life does not typically feel

good all the time.

SPEAKER_00: No.

That's why we have shoes,
outside shoes, and we don't wear

slippers all the time.

Although we do wear Uggs if you
were announced.

SPEAKER_01: If you swing through
the middle school and I drop my

kid off, everybody's wearing Ug
slippers and pajama pants and

hoodies.

And I'm like, You're right.

But then again, I think they're
all too soft.

So they're all soft.

Your kids are too soft these
days.

But yeah, you we can't we can't
be comfortable all the time.

That's the thing.

SPEAKER_00: And and and and a
mental boundary is great because

it it again creates a framework
for that level of discomfort and

it contains it.

Yeah.

So if I have a mental boundary,
I I'm saying, hey, I'm allowed

to think differently than you,
and you're allowed to think

differently than me.

I don't, you know, I don't need
your approval or validation to

think the way I do.

You don't need mine, or to
exist.

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01: So what's so cool is
that and you're saying, Oh, you

don't need my approval in order
to think a certain way, and I

don't need yours.

Yet we can still sit in the same
room and have a conversation or

have a cup of coffee together or
ride the subway together.

Totally.

We could we could probably find
something somewhere to have a

discussion about.

Absolutely.

But that requires curiosity.

It does.

And it and and it requires some
some a pause to understand that

you are allowed to exist and I
am allowed to exist in in our

own kind of like silos.

Yeah.

And and but they're not they're
not walled off, they don't have

to be, right?

SPEAKER_00: Exactly.

Again, there's that idea of the
permeable boundary or the the

the shifting boundary.

SPEAKER_01: Exactly.

When I um when I started off in
this field, I when I first moved

to New York, I was working at a
substance abuse program, just

outpatient program, intensive
outpatient, and I remember

running these groups, and I must
have been 25.

I barely knew what I was doing.

I still don't really know what
I'm doing.

But like the older I get, the
less I know.

Exactly.

It's I'm it's I'm more confident
about it now, though.

And then I was like, I was like,
yeah, I know everything.

But I remember talking about
boundaries, and I and and you

know, the group of the group of
people that we were working

with, it was they were people
coming in early recovery where

they had been through you know
years after years after years of

of drug abuse and alcoholism,
and they they had no idea about

boundaries.

And I remember getting up and
drawing on the dry erase board,

like here are the three
boundaries.

You have a wall, you have a
dotted line, and you have just

openness in my little stick
figure drawing, and I was like,

this is the easiest way to
remember this.

We have solid, we have porous,
and we have none.

Right.

We really want the the porous
one.

I think of the ozone, right?

I think of all these, or I think
of like I had to be a total dork

here, like Star Trek.

When we talk about resilience,
we talk about boundaries are the

same.

It's like a force field around
field.

Yeah, we don't want everything
bouncing off.

Then we're walled off, we're
cold.

We we don't allow things in and
we don't allow things out.

Right.

We want some, say we want like a
screen.

Like like you open your window,
you don't want all the bugs and

mosquitoes coming in.

You want the nice fresh air.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: That's kind of like
that's how I look at boundaries.

We want like a nice, like a new
screen that doesn't allow all

the bugs in.

It's it's not all cloudy and
weird and old.

It's like a nice new one.

You could see through it really
well, yeah, and we still get

that fresh air.

And then we get to yell out to
our neighbors, hey, how you

doing?

Like out the window.

SPEAKER_00: I love that.

That is again, it's it's it's
great because it's a conception,

a conceptualization of a
boundary, not as something

that's dire, that's dangerous,
that's fraught with conflict.

SPEAKER_02: Right.

SPEAKER_00: I think so many
people equate boundaries to

conflict, but here you're
saying, no, it's the opposite.

It's a again, it's a way to
connect with other people.

SPEAKER_01: That's right.

SPEAKER_00: And interact.

SPEAKER_01: And keeping on the
window screen analogy, you have

the ability to slide it open.

Right.

And hand your neighbor a
chocolate chip cookie.

Or not.

Or be like, yeah, sorry, no
cookies for you.

No cookies for you, and no
scripture.

SPEAKER_00: Shut your window
very quickly.

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, maybe that
happens.

Maybe sometimes you're like,
Yeah, I don't I don't like what

I see out there, so I'm gonna
close the window.

It does happen briefly.

But you can but it's not painted
shut.

SPEAKER_00: No.

SPEAKER_01: And that's I think
that's the the the important

part of this is like we get to
we get to have control.

There's that agency that you
were talking about before.

We get to have control over the
window.

Right.

Where that has the screen.

Yeah.

No, it's huge.

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: There's some other
boundaries that that we can kind

of there's one that I want to
call out because it's a tough

one for me, and that's a
temporal boundary, a time the

boundary of time.

Sure.

And it's the idea of like having
a time boundary, a temporal

boundary, is how do we protect
our time, our energy, our

resources?

Sort of the idea that, hey, we
are a limited resource.

I'm saying no to something
that's going to deplete me.

Really tough for me.

I I want to say yes.

We've talked about this in other
episodes.

I want to say yes to everything
and to everybody because I'm a

dreamer and I and I get excited.

But the reality is it's like we
can't we do need these time

boundaries because we can't
always be just perpetually

available.

We can't say yes to everything.

Because we do have time.

We are bound by time.

We are bound by time, everybody
is, and you know, so again,

people pleasing, it's it's tough
for people pleasers to have

these kinds of boundaries around
time, but they're essential

because when they're violated,
somebody else's emergency

becomes ours.

And it's kind of like you're
you're living somebody else's

life.

SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: And it's and so I I
think it's again, I I think

that's an important one to call
out.

Our time is precious, our time
is a resource, and it's

important to I think understand
that.

I was gonna say protect it.

SPEAKER_01: But just to
understand I think, yeah, I uh

protect it almost seems like
it's you know, you gotta it's

it's I I like that.

But to to understand it, time's
f it's finite, right?

I mean, that's that's it's so
what I th I think about I had

this the this mentor in school,
this professor, and he he used

to he told us he goes, sessions
begin and end on time.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: And that's okay if
things are not resolved.

Then we get into like emotional
boundaries, and it it's funny

how the the the time boundary,
the temporal boundary, actually

starts to affect these other
things, right?

Like you talked about people
pleasing, how that affects uh or

people pleasing affects your
your your time boundary, but it

affects then those feelings of
guilt are are our emotional

boundaries.

Yeah.

If I if I stop this thing right
now because I'm bound by time,

oh this other person might they
might start to feel a certain

way about me.

Right.

And remember, like when we were
talking about emotional

boundaries, like um, you know,
because you feel a certain way

about me, then I feel a certain
way.

Right.

That it goes the other way too.

It's a two-way street.

If I feel a certain way, then
you must feel this way.

And that's a cognitive
distortion, that's an unhelpful

thinking style, right?

That's that projection again.

So but I think about that as
like, oh, if I if I tell a

friend, if I'm out getting
coffee with somebody, I say, you

know what, actually, I gotta go,
they might be sad, they might be

disappointed, they might feel
let down.

Actually, probably not.

They're probably they're
probably like, okay, cool, yeah,

I gotta go too.

Yeah, but the that's the reality
of it.

But that that pang of guilt or
or worry or or sadness or even

shame sometimes that that we
might have over setting a a

boundary about time.

That's that's that's something
that we need to understand and

that it's a good exercise.

I think a lot of people actually
probably struggle with with time

boundary, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: I have struggled
with it my whole life.

Yeah.

You know, you mentioned
sessions, like my sessions are

notorious for running late, you
know, like because I I'll I'll

get caught, especially if
something's intense.

Yeah.

I see it with like timekeeping
it, you know, meetings, support

groups.

If there's, you know, the way
those things function is with a

container.

People can't be allowed to just
talk, you know, if it's sharing,

it there does need to be a time
limit.

Usually it's three minutes.

And yeah, you know, it's it can
be tough to be the timekeeper

and have to say, sorry, your
time's up.

SPEAKER_01: It can be.

The last the last program I
worked for, the owner of the

program would come in and he was
so he and he just he drove this

home and he was he was so on
point with this.

He's like, we and he said it the
same exact way.

We need a container.

Meetings, you have to have
somebody that that contains

every meeting, every interaction
you have, especially when you're

dealing with a group of people.

His his joke was always uh it we
had to have the structure

because it's a bunch of social
workers all around a table at

the same time.

And if you want to put a bunch
of people who like who need time

and constraints, put a bunch of
therapists around a table, and

just they're just gonna figure
it out and it feels good.

And this was always his joke
about it.

It was like, oh yeah, it's just
you're all gonna walk into a

room and think that you're just
gonna figure it out, and there's

no container, there's no
structure, there's nothing.

We need it, yeah, because it
really helps and it helps move

things, and it's so it's so much
better.

It made us all feel better
having the container and having

that structure, and it does in
support groups, it does

everywhere because then I know
what my expectations are.

SPEAKER_00: Exactly.

SPEAKER_01: No anxiety about
that.

Okay, I can get what I boom,
boom, boom.

Here's what I want to say, it's
done, it's out.

Yeah, no, there's a safety in
that.

Yeah.

So I want to go back and just
talk about maybe where a lot of

what we see online, where this
is kind of getting it, where

it's it was getting it wrong.

TikTok therapy.

Yeah, TikTok therapy, and and
where where maybe this may where

we need to just reiterate where
this is right.

Right.

And you know, I think that when
we look at boundaries as

cutoffs, that's that's not
healthy.

We're not looking at like
blocking someone, ending

relationship, going no contact,
they can they can be the right

choice for safety.

They can be the right choice in
your life, and and please, I'm

not telling people not to not to
block people or to cut people

off if they need to.

Who feel harmful, right?

But it's not a boundary.

So let's not call it a boundary.

We call it what it is.

I'm blocking this person because
I I can't tolerate what they how

they live their life, what they
say, or what the impact it has

on me.

SPEAKER_00: It's a decision,
it's a behavior.

SPEAKER_01: That's exactly it.

SPEAKER_00: I mean, or it it's
it's yeah.

I'm making a decision right not
drawing a boundary, right?

SPEAKER_01: A boundary in that
situation would be it it's gonna

keep a door available.

So we have a boundary where
we're we're having there's a

door.

Now we can close it, yeah, but
we could say if you so a good

example of this is if you speak
to me that way, I'm going to

leave the conversation.

So you're you're you're you're
giving out a warning.

You're giving out this this kind
of saying, I don't like this.

This is actually this is
actually encroaching on my

boundaries.

If you continue this way, I'm
going to leave.

Right.

Now that's different than just
slamming the door and going no

contact.

Or ghosting, if you will.

SPEAKER_00: But no, that's a
really good point.

Yeah.

And you're also you're giving
somebody a framework within

which to continue a conversation
with you.

SPEAKER_01: That's right.

SPEAKER_00: It's not about
ending things.

It's like, hey, I'm I want I
really want to keep talking.

In order for us to keep talking,
I need this.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

You're setting setting the
stage, setting that framework.

I love you you've used that word
a few times today.

I really I love the word
framework today.

Yeah.

It's it is, it's a structure
that we have to use.

It's useful for me.

Boundaries is a preference.

My boundary is I don't discuss
my weight or my you know my

beliefs about something.

And if it's a topic you don't
want to engage in, that's fine.

But that's not, it's just not
the same as a boundary.

It's just a topic.

It's a preference.

It's a preference.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

That's all.

I prefer not.

I think of Bartleby the
Scrivener.

That's an Urban Melville short
story.

That's right.

Bartleby, will you do this job?

I'd prefer not.

I'd prefer not.

He's not saying no.

SPEAKER_01: He's just talking
about his preference.

He's just saying I don't like
that versus I I can't.

SPEAKER_00: There's so many
things I engage with that I that

I need to engage in that I don't
like, but I have to do them.

That's right.

I have to go through it.

I have to do laundry.

SPEAKER_01: I don't want to do
the dishes.

Right.

But actually, that's not true.

I love actually doing the
dishes.

SPEAKER_00: That chills me out.

But yeah.

But when I see a pl a sink full
of dirty dishes, I get stressed.

SPEAKER_01: Exactly.

And then uh the other one is uh
the boundaries without

discomfort.

Like this this whole kind of
wellness idea is that it implies

when once you state it clearly,
the other person respects it and

you feel great.

That's not typically that's
that's not always how it how it

works.

SPEAKER_00: Not at all in my
family.

It's like training a puppy.

Like the boundary is introduced,
and then the boundary needs to

be redrawn.

And I've found that it needs to
be redrawn with compassion

rather than you know, a firm
hand.

SPEAKER_01: It's the cost of
doing what we call the work.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: We when we talk
yeah, when we talked about

people pleasing, I remember I I
I had said that the the

withdrawal symptom of stopping
people pleasing is guilt.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: It's the same thing
here.

When we set a boundary, it
doesn't mean we set a boundary

and we're good.

And like it feels great.

I set a boundary and look at me.

Yeah.

You might you might get a little
charge out of it, but boundaries

are really uncomfortable.

Yeah.

Because because we're dealing
with a relationship and because

the other person just might not
get it.

It doesn't mean they're mean, it
doesn't mean they're trying to

be hurtful, it doesn't mean that
they are awful.

Yeah, stupid.

It can.

They could be mean or awful.

Yeah.

Right.

It but we we have to help others
understand what our boundary is.

That's our responsibility in a
relationship.

How do I how do I express this?

Other person, kind of how I move
through the world and how do I

understand that for myself?

SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Thanks for listening to Lumen.

If today's conversation
resonated with you, we encourage

you to follow, review, and share
Lumen with anyone you think

would appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01: We'll be back soon
with another conversation

designed to bring a little more
light to the human condition.

I'm Christopher Mooney, LCSW.

And I'm Kenyan Phillips, LMSW.

Until next time, take care of
yourselves and each other.

Lumen is for educational and
informational purposes only and

is not a substitute for therapy,
diagnosis, or treatment.

If you're experiencing a mental
health crisis, please contact

Local Emergency Services or a
trusted mental health

professional.