Software Social

Michele and Colleen reflect on where they’ve come from and where they’re going.

Show Notes

Huge thanks to all of our listeners who’ve become Software Socialites and support our show! You can become a supporter for $10 a month or $100 a year at softwaresocial.dev/supporters.

What is Software Social?

Two indie SaaS founders—one just getting off the ground, and one with an established profitable business—invite you to join their weekly chats.

Michele: Hey, Colleen.

Colleen: Hey, Michelle.

Michele: It has been recently brought to
my attention that last week was our 100th

episode and we forgot to talk about that.

Colleen: Yes.

Yes.

I realized that on Tuesday, the day,
the episode aired people were like,

oh, it's your hundredth episode?

Are you doing something special?

I was like, no, no, we're not.

Michele: I feel like it was the kind of
reaction you get from people after they've

been married for like five years or so.

Like after that point, you're
kind of like, oh great.

We just had our seventh
anniversary, like, cool.

Do you want to fold laundry together?

Like man hundred episodes.

Colleen: That sounds crazy.

I am.

I find that hard to
believe and it's very cool.

Michele: It's kind of wild to
think about where we've come from.

And I don't know, I guess it
kind of makes me think of where

we're at, where we're going to.

I think we realized at a certain
point that we have of unintentional

story arcs that we have gone on,
I guess, do you go on a story arc?

I guess here it goes on a journey.

Right?

We learned that from StoryBrand,
but um, we had these sort of

unintentional arcs and I still feel
like our show is stronger when we

stuck to those unintentional arcs.

And of course, anyone with a
communications or like writing or anything

background is probably like, yeah.

Colleen: Obviously.

Michele: Um, Yeah, podcasting one-on-one.

But, yeah, I mean, I guess so when we,
let's talk about this for a minute.

So when we started out, it was,
I had just moved to Denmark.

We'd been running for
six years at that point.

You were a consultant and for at
least a year at that point had been

like, trying to like dedicate one
day a week to side projects to try

to get uh, SaaS off the ground.

Colleen: Yeah.

Michele: And that, I mean, I feel
like your kind of journey with that.

And eventually, like, I guess, I guess
it was like maybe like a month after

we started that you decided to focus
on simple file upload because it was on

the, you needed for your own clients.

You were tired of building image,
uploading every single time.

Colleen: Yeah, I think that was right.

Yeah.

That sounds about right.

Michele: Yeah.

And so then we, followed you on that
journey basically for six months.

Well, I guess when we started
out, we did, like, we tried to

do like 15 minutes of each of us.

I don't know.

I guess we got tired of that.

And we like, and we also realized when
we prepared for it, we were too stilted.

And um, it'd be kind of interesting
to go back and listen to those, to

hear us like experimenting with format
before we decided to have no format.

Screw it.

Yeah.

Colleen: We just decided to stop.

Michele: Um, And then
you, so you launched.

And got customers.

And bought a twenty dollar
bagel in February of 2021.

And, and that was also around the
time that I started writing my book.

And so then there's like, last
spring, there's kind of the arc of

you trying to like get your first
customers, start to like grow simple

file uploads, still doing consulting.

Um, I'm writing the book, figuring out
how to write a book, how to market a book.

Having a lot of self
doubt and angst about that.

And then you kind of, I guess, got a
little bit disillusioned with simple

file upload and in a way, and like,
you know, there's some financial

pressures and you were like, you
know what, I just need to take a job.

You took a job and then you had that job
for like three weeks or something like.

Colleen: No.

Michele: A month, you were totally like
um, Adam Scott's character in parks

and rec where he liked, I don't know
if you've seen parks and rec, like, so

there's this running meme that he like
takes a job, at an accounting firm.

And then like on his first day he
tells them he actually has to quit.

And this happens several times.

Um, And then, so you took a job and
then people are like, wait, Colleen is

for hire uh, let me offer her a job.

So then you got all these jobs off,
which led to working on hammer stone

because it's like funded by a client.

So now you're actually founder
of two different things.

And then did you stop doing work for other
clients when you started on hammer stone?

Like, do you have other
clients at this point?

Colleen: Yeah, I have one, one kind of

Michele: Okay.

This seems pretty common for people who
are consultants to have like one client

that kind of just hangs on no matter.

Colleen: Yeah, I think, okay,
so we lasted like a big update

at new year's, right, which is

Michele: I was Like six
months ago, Colleen.

Colleen: Oh my gosh.

That was June, and that
was six months ago.

So I feel like if we look at, if we
want to like look back, I think for

you, when we started the podcast,
you were kind of, you like had

your business in obscurity, like

Michele: Yeah, I guess so.

Yeah.

Colleen: You guess?

So.

No.

No, for sure, so.

Michele: I was in an obscure
artisanally crafted founder.

Colleen: Well, I feel like we are
so now active on the internet.

I feel like before that, I mean, you
guys were running a super successful

SAS, like before we started the podcast.

I mean, not kind of
well-known in the bootstrap.

Michele: Yeah, I guess so.

Yeah, I guess we had been to micro
con once, like, and I talked to

people on Twitter a little bit.

Like.

Yeah, but I guess I didn't really
feel like a part of the community.

I didn't really feel like I have.

Like, as I felt like, you know, a part
of like, you know, the independent,

like software worlds, but yeah, I guess
I didn't really uh, I dunno, I dunno.

I didn't feel like I had like a
ton of, you know, community beyond,

beyond the couple of people I knew
and sort of some small communities.

Colleen: So when I look at
like your story, through this

podcast journey to me, for you.

I mean, you guys were already
successful doing over.

You say this publicly, right?

Like over a million before, um, We started
the podcast, but I think for you, so for

me, when I think of the podcast, like, I
think for you, it's more personal and for

Michele: Hmm.

Colleen: business.

So you.

W okay.

Relative obscurity, I didn't
mean to make you feel bad.

I feel like no one who
you were, no one knew

Michele: I

was a beside Japan only
release of a founder.

Colleen: Right.

But that's, what's so interesting
about it is like it also, it brings

home the point that, that those of
us, a lot of us are trying to build

in public and be active on Twitter.

And those things are good, but there's
a lot of people like you and Mathias who

are running million dollar plus sasses

Michele: And there's more of us too.

Like I have friends who are
in this position who are not.

Colleen: Right.

But I think for you, this has been
kind of like an interesting personal

uh, experience because we started
the podcast and I feel like you really

quickly started engaging with the
community and became like a really

active, well-respected member in kind
of the bootstrapping indie hacking,

whatever you want to call it community.

And, that was kind of like a
stepping stone to the book.

And then obviously the book U S you know,
speed wrote that and like we're so, and

have been so active on podcast and the
book, and then of course the burnout.

Michele: I think was that really coming
sort of to reus was like that, you

know, I think when, when we started the
podcast, I had just moved to a foreign

country in the middle of a pandemic.

So I, didn't have any friends.

You know, my in-laws here of course,
like, so I had family, but I basically

just needed people to talk to um,
and to feel like I had friends.

And yeah, I think kind of the burnout was
a little bit of like, you know, there's

some instances where people were kind of,
putting me on a pedestal a little bit.

And I was like, oh God,
like, I don't want this.

I was like, I'm not in this to be famous.

I just want friends.

Um, So I, Yeah.

I guess that kind of drove that a
little bit, but also, you know, the

book also came out of being like, you
know, I used to just hop in a phone

call with people if they had questions
about doing like product strategy or

user research, or kind of anything
sort of related to that and being, you

know, six to nine hours, time zone wise
away like that just wasn't as possible.

And so then that made writing a book
more important because it was a way for

me to sort of scale myself when I just
genuinely didn't have the ability in my

calendar to do, you know, just have those
sort of impromptu phone calls with people

from Twitter anymore, unfortunately.

Colleen: Yeah.

Um, and so then the book and then
like all the accumulated burnout

and like recovering from that.

So that's kinda what I meant when I
said, I feel like for you, it's kind of

like been more of a personal journey.

And for me it's

Michele: Yeah.

Though, I mean, so speaking about,
I mean uh, where we're going, I

think actually for me, it's going
to be more of a business journey.

We're actually for a reason
that I don't know, if I don't

think I told you yet, actually.

Colleen: I'm on pins
and needles over here.

Geez.

Okay.

Michelle, we're like 10
minutes into the podcast.

I

Michele: burying

Colleen: to but you're

Michele: Totally burying the lead.

Um, We are making our first
hire, like full-time hire.

Colleen: Oh, that's wonderful.

I'm so happy for you.

Michele: The next yeah, six months
or so that's going to be me figuring

that out, an us, you know, going
from being a two person only company

to a three person company, of course.

Plus, you know, we still have, you know,
contractors, I still get like a VA.

Right.

I feel like that's kind of, part of it
is like I got, I finally got a VA last

January and of course, you know, we always
had an accountant and a lawyer before.

Felt a little bit different, and so us
kind of very slowly branching out into

not being, you know, just the two of us.

And, we also decided
to go through SOC two.

So there's kind of a, there's a lot
of actually business stuff going on.

And I think the book and kind of all of
that sort, stuff is going to be a little

bit less of a focus also because, you.

know, I'm, you know,
the, the book is written.

I'm not writing the newsletter really
any more just to update people when

I'm doing like a talk or something.

I am going to conferences,
which I'm super excited about.

yeah kind of less of a focus.

Colleen: kind of person are you hiring

Michele: Um, so a combination, their title
will be contents and support engineer.

So a combination of technical
support, and also um, like

basically developer focused content.

So like creating sample projects, creating
tutorials on how to do things like from a,

you know, a developer's perspective of, if
you need to build an app that, you know,

let someone look up their congressperson.

Here's a sample app and
rails that lets you do that.

For example, that's like a
full tutorial on how somebody

could build that, for example.

Colleen: So you were prepared
to pay a developer salary.

Michele: Yes.

Colleen: Okay.

So you're hiring, you're essentially
kind of like what Aaron does a Tuple.

Right?

It sounds like, Like developer,
marketer, content, e.

Michele: Uh, It will be
different than Aaron's role.

I kinda, yeah.

I mean, in that same sort of content
engineering space of like, building tools

and resources for developers, I feel
like Aaron's role is a bit different and

also this one is, half support as well.

Colleen: Half support.

Okay.

So will they also help Mathias
with like tech stuff or no?

Will they be on call.

and how will you handle that

Michele: I

think we have.

Not now.

Yeah.

I think it's two.

I think really what would be
helpful is like somebody, you

know, we get a support request.

It's like, Hey, I'm having
trouble with your Python library.

And like, it's something that like I
can do a little bit of very basic API

troubleshooting, but, um, not too much.

And so, and like, if we could just
you know, take that off of Mathias has

plate I think that would really help.

Um, like I've gotten help.

you know, I have the VA, I have a
bookkeeper, we have an accountant.

We have like lawyer, like I've, I've
gotten some help on some of the sort

of low hanging fruit tasks for me, but
Mathias hasn't really gotten that help.

Um, And so I think that's kind
of where we're hoping that

they will plug in and also.

You know, but also, you know, grow in
that role, um, as well, but then also

both of us have to figure out how to be.

managers because

Colleen: It's only one person,
you don't really have to be.

Michele: yeah.

Yeah.

I know.

But both of us were like, Oh we just
love that, it's just the two of us and

it's, there's no drama and it's so calm.

Like,

so I know, I know I'm just saying
we, both of us will have to

figure out like how to do that.

We'll probably have to have
a lot more process, like you

know, actually have to have like

Colleen: Oh my gosh.

This is so.

Michele: uh, like, uh, actually prioritize
all of our issues and to do's and like,

I'll have to do some actual PM-ing.

so, And then, you, know, how SOC
two changes our business, like the

intent of doing that is not to grow
it's to, again, lighten the load

for Mathis so that he doesn't have
to be spending hours in security

reviews for our enterprise customers.

And instead we can just send
them over SOC two audit report.

And, hopefully that saves a
lot of time, but then again,

whenever we make improvements to
our product, it tends to grow.

And so then it's always like,

Colleen: Oh,

Michele: So now we have to deal with that.

I know.

I'm

sorry.

I

just, yeah, I sound terrible.

I know.

It's so it's so it's so hard.

But you know, I mean,
we're recording today.

It's almost eight o'clock for me, like,
you know, I have a family, like, you know.

It's just a constant negotiation
between, balancing like, you

know, life and, the business.

And um, and yes, I recognize it's
an enviable position to be in

and I should not be complaining.

It's just, it's a challenge
of like making ourselves more

efficient and automating and yeah.

Colleen: I feel like you can absolutely
complain because you do have challenges.

Michele: I mean, we've realized
we haven't gone on a work free

vacation, for eight years.

Colleen: Eight years.

Yeah.

I was giving you a hard time, but
I mean, you were here and you, you

guys like, yeah, I saw, I saw you.

So, I mean, I understand, I mean,
I saw you and like how you, because

it's just the two of you, you can
never be fully disconnected ever.

I get that.

That is a real stress.

And that is a real challenge.

I am really proud of you
for trying to hire someone.

I think it's going to be amazing.

But speaking of your crazy
schedule, people ask me what you

do all day and I have no idea.

So um, I got a suggestion, not for
this episode, but like for a future

episode, like to do a day in the life of
Michelle as the co-founder of , because

I'm like she works all the time.

I literally don't know what she does.

Michele: Like keep like a diary or,
oh God, should I become a tick tocker,

who's like, here's my day in the life.

And now this

Colleen: how to

Michele: do my dance now.

Um.

Colleen: But it was like a real question.

Cause I was like, I don't,
no one knows what you do.

Michele: What would you say you

Colleen: like a big mystery.

What would you do here?

I don't mean my response was, I was
like, I think she just negotiated

enterprise contracts all day.

Michele: I do spend a lot of time on that.

I do a lot of time with, yeah.

I mean, negotiating contracts.

It's a lot of, like product type work too.

I mean, so lately, you know,
I'm chasing down data files for

redistricted, congressional districts
and state legislative districts, like

um, you know, today I was talking
to a potential data vendor trying

to license some of their data.

You know, of course, talk
to the person we're to hire.

I mean, I was also like,

Colleen: oh,

Michele: oh yeah.

oh, yeah, no, I mean, we haven't
verbally agreed to um, oh yeah.

I guess I should make that clear.

Yeah.

It's like, Yeah.

And they've been consulting
for us for a month.

So when it seems like it's a good fit.

So I guess, yeah, I
mean, it, I mean, okay.

But like your story of everything
going on with hammer stone and refined

in the workshop, I mean, that's just
like, that's really interesting.

That's more interesting than
my life to me, quite frankly.

So like, I would rather

Colleen: No.

I mean, it is very interesting.

Like I have a little.

Like, yeah.

I have a lot going on, like I
do and things for me because of

where I am change frequently.

So

Michele: growth stage of things.

Colleen: The beginning.

Exciting.

Yeah.

Like, is it going to work?

Is it not, how fast are we going to grow?

No, it is very exciting.

And I get that and what I'm
doing is, really cool and

very fun and very energizing.

But anyway, Yeah, I realized
I have no idea what you do.

I was like, I don't really know.

I mean, she just eats bond bonds
and pick strawberries all day.

Kidding.

I know you work all day, but that is
like, the thing is like you work all

day, but I don't know what you do.

Um, yeah.

Michele: Diary or something.

Colleen: Maybe it would be fun.

I think you should.

I think like maybe for like a day or

Michele: I'm going to
just do a lot of like

operational.

stuff.

I mean, you know, I mean,
do customer support, like I

follow up on invoices, right?

Like, you know, just make sure
like the sort of that house

is in order with contracts and
invoices and everything like that.

I mean, replying to customers,
negotiating contracts, doing, you

know, product touching stuff, right.

Writing content, you know, writing guides
about how people can use our product.

Yeah, and then I, you know, admittedly,
I do a lot of podcasting, too, which

is probably too much, but I'm I'm kind
of excited for it to shift from like

talking about the book on podcasts,
which I will still do, but like

more so like going to conferences.

To what we said, like of
why I do this, you know.

First of all, the reason why we
do this podcast is to force us to

talk to one another every week.

Everybody listening, I'm sorry,
this podcast is not for you.

It's for Colleen and I um, but then
really it's, you know, to make friends.

Right.

So I'm excited to just talk to
people in person, which, what

a novelty um, at a conference.

Yeah.

That's that's me for like, Six months.

to a year.

hope is kind

Colleen: Six months.

Yeah.

Cause we probably won't do another
check-in until, oh my gosh.

I can't.

Okay.

First of all, yeah, six months
from now, we'll probably do it

next year, 2023, which is weird.

So a lot's going to change

Michele: I mean for you.

Yeah.

I mean, the big thing for you is like
you have this like cliff coming up in

August of does Colleen have to go back
and get more clients again, or can she

stay full-time on hammer stone or refine
or whatever we're calling it these days.

Okay.

Colleen: Refine.

Here's the deal, Aaron talked about
this, I'm committing To refine.

No, like it's not that I don't
appreciate what you're saying, but I

feel like you, you give suggestions
about things, would matter when we're

in a million dollar business and

Michele: Yeah, but you don't want to get a
cease and desist from somebody like right.

That's not fun.

I know people who that's happened too.

We got one for one of our freaking
like a mobile app we made once, we got

a cease and desist because somebody
had a trademark on two words in

our phrase, just did it takes five
seconds, go do a trademark search.

You don't actually have to file the
trademark, but just go do the search

before you commit to refine so that
you know, that it's at least available.

Colleen: Yeah.

Michele: That's actually, that's
also the kind of thing like I deal

with was you know, one point I was
filing the trademark application and

then, you know, I'm not a lawyer.

And so I filed it wrong.

And so that actually had to, you know,
ask our lawyer to go do it and like,

just, I don't know, like little stuff
like that, but it's actually important.

to.

Colleen: Yeah.

Yeah, so since we last
did an update was January.

So this is June today.

Oh my goodness.

So the next six months for me, it will a
lot will change because in the next six

months, we are going to, I mean, we're
all in on refine and so, or hammer stone,

whatever we call it, but I'm going to
call it, refine for the immediate future.

We're all in on refined.

So it's going to be getting
this product off the ground.

I mean, it's just going to be head down,
try all the things and get this out there.

So it's going to be really exciting.

I think a lot is going to
change between now and January.

Yeah.

Even I've already started
kind of making the shift.

We hired a contractor, a
rails guy, and he's amazing.

And so he is doing more of the
technical work right now, so I

can focus on more of the business.

So I still, yeah, so I still have
to do a lot of technical work, but

before it was like a hundred percent
like 40 hours a week technical.

Right.

Whereas if we're going to grow this as
a business, like I have to business.

So it's an interesting thing though,
because as I do more business, I'm

not getting those consulting dollars.

So my actual personal income goes down
so I can focus on building the business.

Which is exactly what I want to be doing,
but also it's kind of like, oh, okay.

Like good to, good to know.

Good to, good to see.

So yeah, so the next six months for
me, or this is definitely going to be

hammer stone, scale back consulting.

And my sister was here this weekend,
and she is off maternity leave.

And so she is ready to start
working on simple file upload

again from a marketing person.

So she has all kinds of
ideas and she's all excited.

So I'm going to let her run with that.

So hopefully she can, you know,
run with that and see if we can

Michele: But you just said you're
all in on Hammerstone, but then you

just told me that you've got this
resource coming back online, so to

speak, and she's going to be focusing
on simple file upload and not refine.

Colleen: Right.

So I think all in.

I mean, I'm working a lot right now.

If I can scale back consulting, I
think I'm going to have time to do

both because remember my business
partner has a job and a half already,

so I think I will have, we'll see.

I mean, I'm, you know, obviously open
to managing things differently if I

need to, but I think I will have time
for both um, once a consult goes away.

And then I can a simple file,
upload revenue to offset what

I'm not making from consulting.

Michele: Right.

So I think, I remember last time we
talked about the work your sister

was doing, you were basically putting
the leftover profit into her work.

Is that still how you're
thinking about that?

Colleen: Yeah.

For now.

Michele: What is it like, what is the
revenue level of simple file upload

right now, if you're, are you still

Colleen: It's like, yeah, it's not, I
mean maybe if it actually makes like

crazy money, I'll stop sharing it.

Yeah.

It's right around fifth, try to run 1500.

Michele: so it's been about
that level for like a year now.

Like it got to like 13.

Colleen: No, it got to like, I mean, it's,
if you look at the graph, it is growing,

but it's growing like 35 bucks a month.

So.

Yeah, it's been stagnant for, I
wouldn't say a year, but she went

on maternity leave in September
and I think September was the last

time we really thought about it.

So, and it's been relatively stagnant.

It's grown like 200 MRR since September.

So it's been pretty low um, just hanging
out, but we haven't, I mean, she and

I were talking about this weekend.

We haven't done anything
on it since september.

Michele: I mean, that's 1500 bucks a month
that you did not have previously, which

Colleen: And

Michele: over months of not doing

Colleen: yeah, totally.

So the thought is like, if she can put her
full effort into marketing that cause it's

really, I mean, nothing is ever feature
complete, but it's feature complete ish.

So she's going to kind of put
all of her time and effort in.

And see where we can go with that.

And then I'm going to be primarily
focused on hammer stone and see where we

can go with hammer stone and hopefully,
know, the stars will align, to, to do.

Michele: Where Is Refine at?

like, like, so last we talked with
Erin, you had sold two licenses.

Is that the pre-sold

Colleen: I pre-sold two rails licenses.

I want to say I figured it out.

Cause I wanted to know what our MRR
was and I think it's like three, if

we take, so we sell annual licenses.

I think we've,

Michele: ARR then?

Colleen: ARR I think is like, I
think we've sold five licenses total.

Michele: Oh,

Colleen: Yeah.

Michele: I guess it Includes us.

Right.

Colleen: Includes you guys.

licenses total, not including the two like
productized consulting contracts we had.

So, yeah, so there's a lot of, I mean,
there's a lot of uh, of opportunity

there and it's already, I mean,
we've already sold five licenses,

which is pretty cool because we
only have one product that's done

Michele: And so, I mean, you said
you're going to be shifting more

towards doing business stuff.

Like

Colleen: business.

Michele: what kind.

business.

stuff.

Colleen: it's

Michele: are you going to
learn how to do this nebulous

business stuff.

Colleen: I feel so good about this.

I feel like I know exactly what to do.

Isn't it.

Michele: W which is.

Colleen: Okay, well, first thing, Aaron
and I are completely redoing the landing

page because if you go to our landing
page, you can't really tell what the thing

is or what it does or why you'd buy it.

We are going to do um, we got MailChimp
set up, so we're going to do like

a marketing automation sequence.

And it's going to be like how
to do XYZ with refined, like

friendly, friendly marketing emails.

You know how to get that report,
your boss wants with refine, how

to let your user search by XYZ
with refined stuff like that.

Um, I have other stuff on my list.

Those are two big ones to start.

Oh.

And the calls, the calls.

So we have a, we have an
email list of 500 people.

So we're going to like pump that list
and get, get on the phone with people.

We have a call scheduled for Friday.

He was scheduled last week, but
he had to cancel last minute,

which is totally makes sense.

So we're trying to do one a week
right now and we'll pick that

pace up, like once we get going.

But the big push for us right
now is the calls and the

understanding what people need.

I'm trying to do this thing
where I'm doing like a founding

customers on the rail side.

So I'm going to take five
pre-orders only, and those five

pre-orders are going to be like.

Beta testers.

And they're going to kind of
be like founding customers.

So they get to be, they could have
like private slack channel access

to us and they get to be involved
in the product roadmap and figuring

out like what we build and what, how
it ends up integrating with rails

applications and all that stuff.

So, um, yeah,

Michele: Oh, interesting.

I remember, um, you know,
Jesse Hanley from bento.

I think he's still.

I don't know if all of his customers or
a subset of them, but I certainly a lot

of them get access to a discord with him.

Like just as like a regular thing.

People seem to really like that.

I mean, I guess you're kind of risking
that you're going to get at all hours.

So I don't know how he manages
that but that might be an

interesting thing to ask him.

Colleen: Yeah.

I mean, we're, we have such a, with
five people, I think it'll be fine.

And maybe we'll do that on
the Laravel of Alside too.

I got to ask, what he wants to do,
because we do have to balance like all

the inquiries um, against our time.

But I think at this early stages, like
pushing those one-on-one interactions is

really what's going to move the product
forward and we can, you know, figure

out exactly what people need build that.

Michele: I think, we talked about how
the list you felt like it was actually,

it was like the developers who are not
actually the end by, of the product.

And so I'm curious, like, how are you
going to, and maybe we're getting too in

the weeds for this conversation today,
but like, how are you going to get to the

people who would actually be the buyers?

Colleen: I'm not sure yet.

I think we'll just start reaching
out to these people one by one.

Once we get them on the phone,
like that's the question you asked?

Can you, can you, make this decision?

Can you buy this?

Like, who is the person who
would make this decision?

Like who is your end user?

Um, cause we have two real use cases.

We have the use case where you have,
kind of, we talked about it a little

bit on the pod next, last week, where
you have the developer who implements

it and they're trying to allow their
marketing team to build reports.

That's when use case, which is a
completely different use case from like

my real estate clients where it's forward.

It's user.

So for them refine is so their users
can come in and filter on properties.

Michele: Oh, interesting.

You have real estate

Colleen: my client, so my consulting
client is a real estate company

and we have like uh, they have,
a really poor, like fuzzy search

situation that just did not work.

And so refined is perfect for them
because users come in and they're like,

I want a three bedroom house and, you
know, Mechanicsville, Pennsylvania

that was listed within the past week.

That is literally the
perfect use case for refine.

Michele: You know, it's funny as a, we
have a lot of customers who are also

real estate companies, like you know,
searching for apartments or houses or

whatever, wouldn't it be so awesome if
like there happens to be a real estate

website that uses both geocoding and

Colleen: Yeah.

Michele: That would be

Colleen: Yeah.

Honestly, Now that I'm telling
you this, I'm like maybe we're

reaching out to the wrong people.

Maybe we shouldn't be, I mean,
developers, maybe that's they,

maybe we need to like focus on niche
markets, like real estate company.

Michele: Yeah.

I mean, if they've found it difficult to

Colleen: Oh, yeah.

Michele: Maybe a

Colleen: That's an interesting idea.

Michele: Does it, our friend,
um, Chris with jet boost, doesn't

he do a lot of like filtering
and sorting stuff for jet boost.

Right.

Colleen: Yeah, I think so.

Michele: I feel Like you
should talk to him about this.

Cause his, I mean, of course his customers
are all on, sorry, they're on Webflow.

They're not on jet boost
deck was, is his product.

right.

But like adding, filtering
and searching for web flow.

And I was, I'm wondering if you could.

If talking to him might be helpful
for you in understanding like the

use cases a bit in terms of like how
people discover they have this problem.

Like,

Colleen: a great idea.

I will.

Um.

Michele: But like it's
definitely kind of similar.

Yeah.

Colleen: that's a great idea.

I should, I should ask him.

And like, now that I'm talking to
you, I mean, If we want to niche down,

this might be, this might be the way.

This is a really interesting idea.

I like this idea.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Okay.

Michele: Who's going to pay you.

Right.

You

Colleen: Yeah.

There's a plan.

Michele: on demographics and

Colleen: I've just, I,

it was just this idea that
I was like, oh, the real

Michele: Talk to them.

Colleen: think this is

Michele: Talk to them,
even though your client.

Colleen: Talk to

Michele: right.

Well, so me for the next six
months, you know, figuring out calm,

sustainable growth, ish direction.

That sounded better in my head.

And then it came out and I was like that,
that, that is not, um, no, but, you know,

being, you know, just continuing to be
a sustainable company, but maybe with a

bit calmer from our perspective, right.

Even though, as we tackle these big
things, like learning how to manage

and, and, you know, going through, um,
SOC two audit, which is kind of a VFD.

And then for you, it's, figuring out how
to business, which has been the, been

the thing kind of from the beginning, but
now I feel like you're, you know, I feel

like you're in the major leagues now.

Right?

Like this, this, is it time to business.

You know, kind of get
down to business, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I think that wraps us up for today.

And also, so, I mean, this is our
hundredth episode and it's still our 101.

A hundred and first I can't
speak my own language anymore.

Um, Episode, I am still, I just
so filled with sort of a, awe and

gratitude that we have all these
people who listen and support our show.

I mean, Yeah, it just still,
still kind of blows my mind.

So, we want to give a huge,
thanks to all of our listeners

who become software socialites
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Uh, You can become a supporter for $10
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Damn feeling the love, feeling the love.

Yeah.

Colleen: Thank you for listening.

Michele: All right.

Well, oh, I guess.

Oh, we should probably say, I
think, I think we might've one more.

So, so we're coming up on this summer
and Colleen and I will both be traveling

and both be traveling sequentially.

So I don't think we're either
one of us is going to be able to

like re we'll be like in this.

Well, we're not gonna be the same place,
but have like the ability to record

together for like five weeks or something.

So we're going to be doing a lot of
guests over the next couple of weeks.

I'm really excited about
these, conversations.

And I hope you guys enjoy it as well,
but then Colleen and I will be back,

uh, August, end of July together.

Colleen: Oh, and I'll have big updates

Michele: the deadline.

Colleen: be exciting.

Michele: of all going to be on
pins and needles for the next,

uh, yeah.

Colleen: Twitters.

I will be tweeting a lot.

Michele: I hope you all Cause I,
I will get the updates there too.

Um, So we will regroup in August
and we will find out has Colleen

learned to business and has
Michelle learned to manage tune in?

Um, But yeah, in the meantime,
having some friends come by and.

I hope you'll enjoy that as well.