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The cost & courage of caring - stories that spark resilience.
Welcome to episode 33
of the Caregiver's Podcast.
I'm your host, Dr.
Mark Ropaleski,
and you can call me Dr.
Mark.
Caregiving is usually framed as love,
duty, and sacrifice.
But for some people,
something much more
complicated is happening.
They're not only caring
for someone who needs them,
but they're also stepping
back into an old survival role.
Our guest today is Greg Fugere,
a trauma-informed coach
whose work focuses
on nervous system patterns,
self-abandonment,
and the survival strategies
people learn inside very
difficult family systems.
Today,
we're talking about what happens
when caregiving is not
just exhausting,
but wired into survival.
And before we begin, please subscribe
to The Caregiver's Podcast
on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
or wherever you listen or watch.
It's free, it takes a second,
and it's one of the best
ways you can support the show
and keep us around.
Greg Fougere, welcome.
Welcome to the Caregivers Podcast.
We're here to heal out loud.
We're really thrilled that you're here
and look forward
to an amazing conversation.
Great.
Thank you for having me.
I'm looking forward to this.
Well, in keeping with tradition,
let's just jump right into things.
You know, Greg, do you really think
that some people enter the world
of caregiving already primed
by old family patterns and roles
and survival patterns
that existed long before
anyone gets sick?
I do.
I believe that, um, you know,
that we, that we often take
on certain roles to, um,
to survive our family dynamics.
And some of those roles are learning
to abandon ourselves in order
to put other people first.
you know, growing up.
So yes, I do.
And, um,
Do you think that...
some
of those are entrenched all along,
only meant to sort of be reborn
when called to caregiving?
Or do you think
that sometimes individuals
are well-heeled,
but then caregiving just
brings everything back?
Um, I think there's our,
there are parts of us that,
that perhaps, um, are more,
you know, empathetic and,
and are kind of more wired
to kind of serve other people.
But I, but I do believe I know
for myself and a lot of people
that I work with that, you know,
caregiving and,
and putting other people
first was something that was kind
of learned really early on
in order to, you know,
survive what would be what I call kind
of emotionally unsafe environments
with caregivers.
Who, uh, were not, um, you know,
really emotionally tuned
to themselves.
And we had to become the,
uh, the regulator and very much the,
the kind of caretaker
of the other people's,
other person's emotions.
And, um,
So, you know, it's kind of the,
the question of what came first,
the chicken or the egg and,
um,
And a lot of the folks that I work
with and myself included...
It may have been a part of
that in there already,
but it certainly kind of got exploited
and really brought out growing up
in homes that were emotionally safe.
You don't want to say it.
Tell us a little bit about the work
that you do
so our listeners understand
a little bit of the framework
from which you're coming
from.
Yeah,
the work I do
with people is really about kind
of rebuilding identity and self-trust.
You know, after, you know,
growing up with, you know,
again, emotionally unsafe environments
and relationships and kind
of recreating those
relationships again
in our adult life as well.
And so one of the common themes
that for myself, again,
and the people I work with is
we, we lose our, our kind
of identity.
We build identity around other people.
And again, we, we,
in that we also lose trust
in ourselves and, um,
And
so the work I do is
really about helping people rebuild
that
the version of themselves
that had to kind of get buried,
um, in order to, again, um,
you know,
care
for other people's emotional needs.
Um,
And it's interesting because
And it's extreme,
people are often left vacant,
just sort of wondering, well,
Who is that person anymore,
if I have any recollection
at all?
And what does
that person today want out
of life when I haven't been used
to actually asking that question
for decades?
And some of us never, never asked
that question.
So when a caregiver then says,
you know,
I know I just can't keep going
on like this.
but I know I also can't stop.
What does
that tell you about
what's happening beneath the surface
in that individual?
Well, to me, it's, again,
it's a lot
of what we're talking about,
in my opinion,
are subconscious patterns
and programs
that were developed really early
on.
And so, and they were developed
in a nervous system
that was feeling unsafe and
that was in a form of survival mode.
For many folks that grew up
in these type of environments,
their kind
of baseline is survival mode.
And so, they're always in this kind
of hyper-regulated state
where the system is trying
to protect them.
And a lot of these patterns kind
of get ingrained into us through
for our own safety and to kind
of survive in these environments,
but they're being triggered
by a nervous system that's trying
to protect us.
So one of the things
that really people run into problems
with is they think they can kind
of overpower the system or
by beating themselves up
or shame or trying
to somehow muscle the
system differently is going
to help them kind
of break out of the patterns
and start choosing themselves.
And in fact, it doesn't work
that way.
That we need to start to learn how
to work with the nervous system
and regulate the nervous system
and try to get the system
to feel safer so it's not
in survival mode running
these patterns doing its job.
Can you tell us a little
bit more what survival mode looks like
in a caregiver,
but also maybe take it
one level further
and tell us what it feels like?
Because I think a lot
of people are wondering whether
or not, like, am I in survival
or am I getting close
to survival mode?
But what would I be feeling
if I was?
And often it's that first step
of recognizing the feeling
that
That makes someone say, whoa.
Maybe I'm further along
that path than I thought.
You know,
that's
for a caregiver who's still functioning
and still showing up
and still getting everything done,
but maybe just needs to stop
and reflect for a moment.
- Yeah, it's a great question.
And it often comes
when people start burning out
and just like you
described a few minutes ago,
when people just kind of can't go
on like they're going on anymore.
Because for many folks,
it's really hard to identify they're
in survival mode
because they have no perspective
on it, right?
So it's been this kind
of way they've been
showing up in the world for most
of their lives.
And it's hard to kind
of identify until you start
to be able to start to step out
of it.
Um,
So it's the, you know, a lot
of people will call it, you know,
different forms of kind of anxiety
or kind of being like on all the time
or always having to do or perform,
feeling this incredible pressure
to kind of be on for everyone.
Um, and, you know, at a certain point,
our systems just, um, start
to give up and then we start
to get burnt out.
And, and that's usually the first sign
that we've been in survival mode
for a long time.
So it's for someone to be
in survival mode, to kind
of explain
to them what survival mode is,
it's hard for them to see it
because they're, they're inside
of it.
And there's really no perspective,
no separate perspective.
What does burnout feel like?
for a caregiver, perhaps compared
to...
an executive
in a company who's
running the show 24-7.
What's different for a caregiver
in your estimate?
it's this burnout
that just follows you in every aspect
of your life.
It's this complete exhaustion,
right?
It's the...
it's it's to to many folks you know
when i got to the point
where i i literally
collapsed it was brushing my teeth
and and combing you know what was left
of my hair
at the time was was was
almost impossible it was a complete
and utter exhaustion
that's what burnout
becomes it it turns into this um
That's at the extreme form,
but...
It's when we're
Yeah,
it's this thing that doesn't respond
to, you know,
How do I put this?
it doesn't respond to the usual kind
of things we do for ourselves
to motivate ourselves to kind
of get as good.
Um,
it doesn't respond
to kind of the pep talks
or to this, um, kind of reasoning
with ourselves or kind of talking
to ourselves.
We,
we just can't kind of keep going anymore.
Well, the quote, uh, Dyke Drummond,
who's, you know, written extensively
and was some
of the first books out there
on a physician burnout.
It's like,
Those little things
that you're describing are really not
filling the energy tank
to restore balance,
right? Like their little...
little taps or little hits,
but they're really not
shifting the balance
to restore energy.
And as you say, you just get
so depleted where
that every task just becomes...
a huge effort.
It's not about the motivations,
just about the
Just that sort of physical sense
of it, you've still got juice left
in you.
Uh-huh.
Yeah,
it absolutely is an energy issue.
And, and it's, it doesn't respond
to things like motivation
or, or,
Um,
It's not a motivation issue.
What about coffee?
No, coffee doesn't work either.
That's for sure.
So how does someone know then
that they're not
just tired or
overwhelmed but stuck in a pattern
that keeps overriding
their own limits.
Yeah.
I mean, I keep going back,
you know, I know it's,
it's a very vague term,
but I keep going back to the,
the idea of this,
this overwhelming exhaustion
where it's, you know, you just,
you just can't show up to life
in the same way.
And, and, you know, the,
I understand the joke about coffee
and stuff, but you know,
those things don't work either,
right?
These other tools that were,
were ways that I could kind
of override my system and kind
of keep pushing myself
kind of beyond the limits.
They start failing, right?
That, that I can't, I just can't,
get it moving anymore.
And one of the things
that you can kind of really tell
that you're at that point is,
you know,
the more we start putting pressure
on ourselves, you know,
internally is it causes
even more exhaustion, right?
And it turns into this
really destructive kind of loop
where it's like spinning your tires
in the mud, right?
It's amazing.
I've spoken to a lot of people who
take on
that extra pressure may actually be
present in the form of
self-improvement task lists
or habit-forming lists
or like adding everything
on.
And then several
of our guests historically
have said, you know,
we were doing everything
and then we really hit the wall,
even though you were
following what every...
thread these days or and
or many of the more
popular books we're promoting is
that, you know,
building this whole new infrastructure
of self-care,
yet you can actually burn out doing
that.
I love that.
I'm really happy that you brought
that up because it's true.
And that's what leads to this.
You know, it leads to a lot
of shame and it leads to a lot
of kind
of like self-loathing
in a lot of ways, too,
that you're doing all these things
that are people telling you
to do that should be good
for you and start
to restore some energy
and they're not working.
They burn you out more.
They make you feel worse.
Um, and you, you know,
you look in the mirror
and you really start to believe
that something's really broken
in you and there is a problem here
and that you're defective
in some way.
Um,
and that increases that kind
of adversarial relationship
that we have with ourselves,
you know?
I'm doing the yoga,
I'm drinking the coffee,
I'm doing these things that,
you know, people say they're supposed
to help me, right?
I'm reading the right books,
and I'm listening
to the right podcasts, but,
Things aren't changing,
they're getting worse for me.
Um,
I think that's a,
I think that's a large number
of individuals who are, you know,
entering that
sort of schema with
the best intentions and
yet it backfires.
And I think we need,
those are people who really need
to sort of benefit from some
of these deeper conversations
What's the first sign that you feel
when you're stuck?
Is it that you wake up in the morning
and you may have gone eight hours
and you feel no...
refreshment at all like is
that a
- A distant early warning sign?
Or what
in your experience do
you think is something
that someone might notice,
oh boy, that's been happening
for a couple of months,
that might be a warning sign?
Um, you know, there's, I think some
of the earlier warning
signs would be like, um,
like intermittent collapsing
where it's like completely
on or off where,
where it turns into like
you go 90 miles an hour and then,
you know, you get any chance
and it's, it's a collapse,
right?
And, and.
And the weekends come
and your free time comes
and it's just utter
exhaustion and you're
not sinking into yourself
in the same way.
Um,
think that's one of the
earlier signs um it's this real kind
of
on off it's like the
system has to collapse um
and it's not rest, it's collapse.
And so it's, it's like you said,
you can sleep for, you know,
10 hours and you wake up
and you're just still, um,
you know, you're exhausted
by the thought of like getting out
of bed.
Can you imagine when you're caregiving
and perhaps like many
individuals these days, caregiving
for aging loved ones as
well as their own young families,
that those times that may be left
for yourself are very few
and far in between.
you're so exhausted
that you can't even benefit
from those morsels, and
You just starve further.
Yeah.
you talked a lot about
earlier about the dynamics
of,
many years of relationships
with yourself as well as your
environment that you grew up
in and the challenges therein, but
often within families themselves,
their unique relationships.
So why is it so often the same person
in a family who becomes
the default caregiver and takes
on the burden and is at such high risk
of burnout?
It's a great question.
Again, I think it's a number
of different things.
I think parents assign that role
to one of the children, for sure.
And I think the childhood tends
to be, you know,
when you talked about, you know,
is it something you're kind
of born with, you know, this kind
of ability to kind of care
and be more sensitive
and more empathetic towards people.
I think that that is true
to an extent.
And I think a parent can kind
of feel that in their child
and kind of assigns that role
to the child.
And, you know, again,
it's an adaptation by the system,
right?
It's a certain way
that your nervous system,
you know,
responded to the environment.
And you learned really early
on that if I, you know, if I kind
of catered to them kind of emotionally
in a certain way that I benefit
and I stay safer.
Absolutely.
Some primitive security.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That I can receive some love.
I can receive some connection
and affection.
And, um...
And so that's, again, I think
so much of it is a learned response,
but it also is a role
that you get assigned very early age
to.
And what would make for the fact
that
that would keep getting reinforced
by siblings over time, such
that when big responsibilities needed
to be taken on in the future,
Bang, it falls on your shoulders.
Well, again, I think families
in many ways, especially
when we're, you know, again,
I focus a lot
on very more emotionally
dysfunctional families.
They operate in systems and,
you know, people, you know,
there is a point
where people have roles and
that doesn't mean roles
can't shift a little bit depending
on how it suits the system.
But those roles are something
that get, you know, created very early
on and, you know,
You know, most, you know,
so many people play
those roles throughout
their lives without stepping out
of them,
without even knowing
they're playing a role.
So,
Um,
You know,
and everyone is playing the role
in the system and ultimately
to stay safe.
Right?
And so,
Um,
it's just how people know
to show up.
It's ironic how in that pursuit
of safety you can actually
take a pounding
that accumulates over time
and leaves you very,
Resource depleted.
Can you teach us a little
bit more about the term
parentification?
Um, and how,
It sort of quickly trains someone,
if you will,
to become the one who overfunctions,
absorbs guilt, takes on too much,
and just can never step back.
Yeah, it's, I mean, again,
it comes back to, you know,
how we, you know, in healthy families,
right, that the parent is teaching
or demonstrating, you know,
healthy emotions to a child.
And they're giving the child the space
in the room
to explore their own emotions
and to feel their own emotions
and to make mistakes
with their own emotions
and what have you.
And that doesn't happen
in these families.
It gets flipped.
And the child becomes the,
it's the complete opposite.
The child becomes the
emotional regulator of the parents,
you know,
that you can control
the parents' emotions based
on how you behave and how you kind
of sacrifice yourself and what you do
for them.
And so you be, to me,
parentification is we
become the emotional responsible ones
in the home at a very early age.
The, we put it all on our shoulders,
right, where it really should be
on the parents' shoulders is
to control the emotional tenor
of the home.
Um, so the roles get reversed.
can see how a lot of
Positive.
And negative, but regardless,
important shaping experiences
of the child are lost when they take
on that burden.
So early on.
That's why, again, so many people,
they never really step into
They never have the room
or their space or their safety
to really kind of step into a version
of themselves that feels authentic.
And it's always kind of outsourced
to other people.
And that's why,
you know, the work I do is
so focused on rebuilding identity.
And in many cases, building identity,
not even rebuilding identity,
because we never really
had a full grasp on who we really were
to begin with.
It never felt safe to us.
It always felt safer to shape shift
and contort ourselves to kind
of, again, suit the emotional needs
of other people.
Um,
And that's what becomes,
you know, that's the whole concept
of abandoning ourselves,
right?
That we learn that in relationships,
it's always safer
to put other people's
emotional needs first.
Other people come first,
and that's how I stay safe.
You can see how that pattern,
once you enter caregiving,
later on in life
for loved ones can bring back
so much of that dynamic.
But also, interestingly,
when you've been exposed
to that, what
and how that shapes your decision
to pursue caregiving
in a professional capacity,
- Nurse, physiotherapist,
social worker, physician,
professional home caregiver,
what have you.
Do you have any insights
from all the people you've met
in your career about the dynamics
that affects the choice
to pursue the health specialties
in caregiving?
I do.
It's, you know, I worked as a nurse
for many, many years and I worked
in substance abuse too for many years,
substance abuse counseling.
And so I was kind of always kind
of called to, you know, kind
of working with others in
that capacity.
And, you know, again, it was,
it was,
that's where I found my self-worth
in relationships was it
was being there for other people.
That's where I felt some security
and safety.
And that's
where I thought I had value.
My value was based on me doing
for other people.
That's what I kind of prided myself
on.
That was what I was kind
of good at.
It was kind of part of my skillset
that was developed really early
on.
I hear you.
Mm-hmm.
So...
I think that's,
I think that's very common
for a lot of people to kind
of seek professions or seek a way
of showing up in the world
that they can, they can use
that.
And which is a great thing.
I mean, I'm a coach now,
right?
I mean, I work with other people.
But
It's not the first person
who gets the energy
and the attention now is me.
It's not others.
I remember early
in my career I almost had this notion
that
If you were doing the good work,
And looking back at it now,
maybe it was like the true sign
of not really understanding
how to take care of yourself
or choose yourself.
But if you were doing the good work,
somehow you'd be look after.
Um, I still remember my mom who,
uh, said, you know, once in a
while you should go to church
and maybe say a prayer for Dick.
keep the strength up and
that
you have the energy
to pursue what you're doing,
and it's sort of like,
I'm doing a good task.
I'm sure I'll be looked after somehow.
I don't have time to go pray
or go to church.
You know, speaking as a young,
busy resident who...
was, you know, wearing numerous hats.
Really interesting term
you mentioned before,
and I have to come back to it
because it really
hit home,
Outsourcing Your Identity.
In a society now where we outsource
so much,
you find yourself now
even outsourcing your identity.
Um, so...
Getting back to...
call to caregiving and let's get back
to the family dynamics and
Um,
a lot of the comments
are received and I say,
you know, don't forget the love
that goes into caregiving
and your caregiving
for the individuals who raised you.
But yeah,
When you've outsourced your identity,
there are lots of events
that can occur
later on that might be fueled
from those changes
and could also potentially be fueled
for
Resentment.
So can you tell me how
you tell the difference
between caregiving that comes
from love and caregiving
that comes from fear, fawn,
or just trauma-driven obligation?
Yeah, I mean...
I mean, again, the pattern was created
in these, you know, it was created
in survival responses
and fawning responses and,
you know, freezing responses
and what have you.
And when we're functioning out
of that kind of,
out of that survival mode
or as many times I call it distortion,
right?
That when we're functioning
or some people will refer
to it as the wounding, right?
That the wound that was created,
when we're functioning out
of the wound
or out of the programming,
when we're running these kind
of subconscious programs,
I think that's what...
um, is the grounds or the,
can create the resentment
and the resistance, um,
when we're able to
pour into ourselves first,
and we're able to kind
of really consciously
choose how we're showing
up in a relationship, I think
that is how we're kind of showing up
in love, right?
When we're working against ourselves,
we're abandoning ourselves,
we're defeating ourselves,
and
that is gonna be the breeding ground
of resentment.
But when I can care for myself first
and make the choice in how I show up,
and it's a conscious choice,
it's not a subconscious one,
that's when we really can kind
of act out of love.
Um,
So then why do families
so often resists the
person who stands up and says,
I can't keep doing this.
Can't keep doing it.
taking it all on.
Why is there so much resistance
in the family
when someone chooses honesty
and maybe a bit of self-love,
as you say?
The person was playing a role
in...
for the system
and it was suiting the system
and when someone chooses themself um
and puts the system secondary,
it's gonna ruffle a lot of feathers.
It's gonna ruffle a lot of feathers.
You know,
I'm not saying this is the case
in all scenarios,
but you often can start to see the,
you know, the emotional maturity
of a family system when someone starts
to, you know, advocate for themselves
and talk for themselves.
And that's a pretty, in my opinion,
a pretty big sign of a family
that may not be...
how do I put this up, being...
kind of mean here,
but emotionally mature, um,
that if they're going to start
to reject someone like that,
or, you know, um, use guilt
or other tactics to kind
of get someone to kind of fall back
in line, you know,
that tells you a lot
about the dynamics of the family.
Well, I mean, it pushes a little bit
of a...
destructive agenda towards
that individual and that
Who they are doesn't matter,
the role matters more.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
And that's, again, that's this,
you know,
that's just a self-
preservation mechanism, too,
for individuals
and the family unit as well.
You know,
just like the caregiving role
that we kind
of stepped into was just
another self-pres- you know,
it's a way for us
to protect ourselves.
So it's striking how
Family dynamics goes on for decades
and decades
and decades after those important
formative years at the beginning
when families are starting off
and, um,
It's a very powerful image.
How do we talk honestly then
about
caregiver anger
when it emerges without
actually shaming caregivers
in the process.
So great question.
I haven't really thought about
that.
Um,
You know, I think it's, I mean,
obviously,
I think it's super important
for people who are in roles
of caregiving to have outlets
and have support
for themselves as well.
And that's another thing
that is very common
with people who are kind
of wired this way,
that they're very hyper-independent.
Um, and they think they need
to take everything on themselves
and asking for help or asking
for support can be very hard
for people.
Um, and particularly the people
that I'm talking about and,
um,
So we need an outlet.
We need to be able to express.
We need someone to help kind
of reflect things back to us
and help, you know,
Um,
Help us realize that, you know,
having anger,
having resentment doesn't
make you bad,
doesn't make you a bad person,
it's a normal emotion, it's okay,
but having support is
so incredibly important,
and that feels weak and wrong
for a lot of people.
often when people will try
to
save some space for themselves
in this whole caregiving dynamic
and start some affirmations
of their own needs.
Someone might say, shame
on you for feeling that or saying
that.
Like,
how could you? This is your parent.
This is your loved one.
This is...
What's it about the hardwiring
of those individuals
who say shame on people?
on the caregiver who's trying
to
Take a few steps
to reestablish a footing.
I think it depends on who it's coming
from.
Again, I think if it's coming
from inside the system,
it's supporting the system,
and it's you stepping
out of a role in the system.
And I think sometimes outside
of the system, it's people who haven't
really looked at themselves um
in certain ways um
that you know they're they're
they're kind of blind
to certain aspects
of themselves as well.
And that's kind of a
self-protection mechanism
for them as well.
to shame someone like that.
Maybe it allows them to avoid having
to actually delve into those thoughts
and reflect to them
in their own context, but just shut
that other image down or
that other conversation down.
When it gets to the point
And I'm sure you've got
a lot of experience with this
when caregivers start saying,
I don't recognize...
who I've become anymore.
What are you hearing in those words?
End.
How do you start a conversation...
therapeutically to sort
of help them reacquaint
with themselves.
Hmm.
um you know reacquainting
with themselves is something
that you know takes a lot of time
so this is not something
that can just you know start
to happen right a few words um
But I think it really starts
with...
you know,
starting
to normalize what they're
going through.
Right,
I think that's kind
of the first step is,
is you're not wrong for,
there's nothing wrong here
with the way someone is
feeling and the anger
and the resentment
and the exhaustion
and these things are, they make sense,
they're logical.
Um,
You know,
one of the things that's
really important early on is
to start to work on that kind
of, again, I talked about it earlier
that
That we develop this kind
of, when we lose ourselves like
that, we often develop this kind
of adversarial relationship
with ourselves and to kind
of start there.
Um,
where
you know, normalizing what's happening
to someone is really important,
um, and what they're feeling
and to start to kind of break out
of those, you know, because again,
like you mentioned a few minutes ago,
um, you know, it's often a voice
or something they're hearing
in their minds that they are being,
um,
They are ungrateful.
They are these different things.
They shame themselves.
They kind of gaslight themselves
in their reality.
And so it's important to start
to kind of break that at first.
You know, it's a long process
to start
to discover oneself after this.
but it has to start with safety.
Do you think that's the ego
that was so...
formatively,
changed and molded
in those early experiences
that's just coming in and pounding
in, trying to restore the balance
that it always
has tried to keep
- Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know,
it's, and that's why it's,
you know, so much about
building safety
and slowing things down
in these relationships at first is,
Because you're kind
of pushing against a pendulum
when you start to try
to challenge the ego that way,
right?
You're pushing against
something that's going to push back.
right?
Um,
And that's something that
so many of us do for
so long is we think that the pressure
and urgency and shame
and criticizing ourselves
is what's going
to change things, right?
Um,
And it's really...
You know,
our egos
and our nervous systems are miraculous
and they're doing their job
so perfectly and they're going
to do our job, their job perfectly.
And so they're gonna hang
on to these
when it's feeling threatened,
these patterns
and ways of showing up.
They're gonna double down,
we press on them harder,
so.
It's amazing how
individuals who become programmed
to care give perhaps selflessly
and show a lot of compassion
to others
in those instances really struggle
with self-compassion.
Absolutely.
So what should a caregiver do then
when they start feeling
that this resentment is growing
and it's growing towards
the person they're caring
for
especially when
Degree of resentment actually starts
to scare them,
Do you have...
experiences
with individuals who are like,
I feel I'm on the edge.
I'm scared about
the anger that's mounting,
how do you talk them down
from that?
Again, you know, I don't work
with a lot of individuals who are,
you know, directly responsible
for a lot of, you know,
necessarily care for other people
at that stage.
Mm-hmm.
But again,
I really do believe it's
about creating some sense
of kind of normalcy and safety
in the system.
And so,
you know,
allowing these emotions
and these feelings to start
to move
and be felt is really important.
So
To me,
it's not as much as about trying
to give them information
to necessarily talk them off the edge,
but give them a safe space
and a container to start
to process and to feel these things
and to be able to express these things
and not to hold them back
and not to try
to suppress them anymore.
I think when we try
to deny those things or try
to kind of talk ourselves
or pep talk ourselves out
of those things, I think that's,
again,
that's kind of suppressing what needs
to be felt and to move in us.
So...
it comes back
to this recurring theme about systems
and or rebuilding systems
that allow
the individual to function more
holistically or in a more healthy way,
but
there's your own personal
system you create
but there's also the system
that you function
and we've learned a lot
from having spoken to
several of the nursing union heads
and others about systemic
betrayal within the actual system
at the macro scale.
But here we're talking about
your own
micro-system that you need
to actually put some checks
and balances in
so that you're not
actually self-betraying
along the way during
your caregiving journey
or your journey
of looking after others.
If a person is needing care,
but they also happen
to be a parent who really harmed you.
in the past manipulated you,
you know, trained you almost
to abandon yourself.
What does the process
of healing look like in that context?
the process of healing while involved
in that relationship
Well, the healing that you need
to do...
to survive, you're called
to survive once again
once you've reached that point
of burnout end, resentments growing,
and you realize you're caring
for someone who really
may not have been there for you,
may have actually harmed
you along the way,
Maybe it was physical,
maybe it was emotional, mental.
But at some point,
you need to embark on this process
of healing
What does that look like?
needs to sort of be established
for a healing environment
to start occurring.
- There needs
to be some boundaries put
in place for sure.
You know, it's very hard
to, again, start to work
with a system when the system is,
when you're involved with,
you know, people
in a similar environment,
they're kind of trained the system
to begin with,
and it's gonna continually
trigger the system,
and it's gonna trigger
those old patterns.
even if we're aware of them
to a certain degree.
So, you know, being able
to set boundaries is really,
I'm sorry
if my dog is snoring in the background,
Koda.
Can you hear him?
Yeah.
Yeah, go rumble.
My apologies.
That's okay.
So, you know, and it doesn't,
you know,
I think boundaries are
really important at
that point 'cause it's really hard
to,
um,
you know start to address your stuff
when the system is feeling unsafe um
and it's it's especially
You know, that being involved
in those relationships is going
to constantly kind
of trigger the system
to protect itself.
And, um, and that's where we start
to lose a lot of control
and agency over ourselves
because it, it's,
it's firing all those kinds
of patterns and programs
that it was,
that it learned really quickly.
early on and really well,
um, on how to keep us safe.
It's interesting you refer
to like the system responds
to our own attempts
at setting boundaries
and it can come back pretty hard
to try and suppress our attempts
and when we're feeling burned out
or we're feeling under
resourced emotionally to cope
with that, it can put us back
in our place pretty effectively.
It can.
It can.
It's doing its job
from the best it knows how.
right,
with the information we gave it.
and the experiences we gave it.
We're going to take a break,
folks.
This is a really intriguing,
amazing discussion with,
uh,
Our guest today,
Greg from Heal Out Loud,
We'll be back shortly.
as I started getting
older into my teenage years,
I started to recognize
that there was some like
dysfunctions within like
my family dynamic.
There's certain
relationships were look kind
of toxic.
And, you know, as I had to sort
of, um, as I became interested
in healing my relationships,
um, it's sort of starting
to question like the dynamic
that I grew up with.
Um,
I started
to make my first inclination was
to fix the system of the family.
Like I,
it was a system I had
absolutely zero influence
or control over,
but I took it upon myself
to try to fix everyone else.
And, and my relationship was
with other people.
Um, and I did that for years
and it was exhausting
and not very fruitful to be honest.
And then at some point, um,
I sort of looked at, okay,
I have to fix this internally.
The system that I need to fix is,
is inside.
And maybe that means I need
to set some boundaries or whatever.
But I think a lot
of people waste an enormous amount
of their life
and their emotional capital,
trying to fix these, uh,
entrenched family dynamics
that go back generations.
So is there anything that can sort
of help, um,
get people to stop focusing externally
and sort of look to themselves?
Is there, like, how do you sort
of, um, guide people to sort
of stop looking externally
and maybe start focusing
on,
on regulating their own nervous system
and their own emotional base?
- It's a great question
and unfortunately, most of the people
that I work with are coming
to me after the real kind
of collapse and they are kind
of totally burnt out and they're
at the point where they kind
of can't go on in their system
and in their family system.
So it's hard to necessarily be able
to
Um,
give people advice when they're still
in the mode of, um, convinced
that there's still some way
to make it work externally,
um,
that they still have
some power over being able
to kind of fix the system
or other people.
I mean, that's a place
that people get locked into
for so long.
I think it's really important
that we talk about this stuff
and get this stuff out there
and people become more aware
of it.
But it's hard to, again,
we're, we're talking about these,
these kind of deep rooted patterns
and, um,
I do.
I think it's hard to, um,
you know, kind of convince people
that they need
to do something before they're ready.
Um,
And we often need to be
at the place sometimes for some
of us have to be at the place
where we just can't go
on the way we're going on.
And that becomes a real opportunity
to start to make a pivot.
How do you know
when you're ready though?
What are the, like, what are the,
There's being burned out
and being exhausted, but
that doesn't equate with ready
to exert change, especially
if you don't have much,
you feel like you have much energy
to begin with.
what are the,
Can you shed some light
for the listeners to
what to look for, like,
maybe I'm ready.
Yeah, it's when we're, it's
that exhaustion,
but it's also starting to see
and, you know, that at some level
that the system isn't responding
to you,
that other people aren't seeing you,
that other people don't
have your best interest at heart,
right?
It's when things start
to click a little bit and you can see
that you're both, you know,
seeing it,
but you can also feel
this resistant inside
that doesn't want to see it
and it wants to kind of run away
from it. And it's exhaustion
and it's a lot of confusion
and it's also, you know,
often when a lot of kind
of resentment
and anger start boiling out
of you too or coming out
of you as well.
it's it's it feels like
more resistance right
everything has this kind
of more of a kind of gritty
that you just know you just know
that something's kind of changing
and it's in
Again, it's hard for me to say
because most of the people
that end up in the coaching container
with me are at a point
where they're well past that point
and they're pretty desperate
to...
Um,
to do something, and a lot
of people that I end up kind
of working
with too have already gotten
to the point
where they've set some real boundaries
with their families.
And now it gets to the point
where, okay, how do I start
to rebuild the relationship
with myself?
right?
That they've, they've gotten
to the point where they're
so frustrated and so this
and so that,
and they've had no choice,
but to set some real boundaries
with people.
Um,
And at that point, they go,
okay, well,
why isn't things getting better
in my life?
Why aren't things improving?
I've created the distance,
I've set some boundaries,
I've made some decisions here,
but,
what's up?
I still don't feel right.
I still don't, you know,
I'm still replaying the same patterns
in my head
and the same relationship with myself.
I think just to follow up,
you said a little bit earlier
that sometimes you have to let a lot
of the anger
and the quote unquote
negative emotions out
and you can't suppress that.
And it just occurred to me,
I think maybe part
of the reason people don't want
to transition from focusing
on the external to going inside is
because then you're going to have
to confront all of the anger
and resentment and bitterness
that you have towards people
that you're supposed to really love,
you know, the people in your family
and you have to go through
that before you can sort
of reach the other side and start
to establish that stuff.
But getting angry for people,
particularly at like parents
or siblings can be pretty daunting
and intimidating.
So maybe that has something
to do with it.
Yeah, all these emotions are,
you know, feel very unsafe
and are emotions we don't want
to feel.
Anger especially,
right? Anger was an emotion
that, you know, many people
that were, the type of people
that we're talking about right now
and the type of, you know,
families, you know,
anger was not something that was safe
to express.
Confronting was something
that was unsafe to do.
And again, your safety,
your nervous system, right,
your system learned that
if I suppress emotions,
I can stay safe.
I don't express them.
Again, if I hold everything
in, that's how we stay safe
in this environment.
So it becomes very
uncomfortable as an adult
to start to explore
and let these things be felt.
And there is the anger
and there are those things,
but with a much deeper level,
and this is something we can't escape
and it's something that we just have
to allow ourselves to start
to feel is the grief.
And this becomes really difficult
to start to...
you know,
start to really meet the reality
that your family isn't
what you've always hoped
for and been kind of working
for,
and the relationships
aren't going to be the way
that you've been, you know,
hoping and trying for.
And that's really hard.
And so there's the anger piece,
but I think in many ways the
more difficult
difficult one or harder one
for a lot of people is
to really experience that grief
that they need to go through.
And that, that takes time.
Grief is one of those emotions
that there's no speeding it up.
Um,
It needs to be felt.
Thanks for answering my question.
It's pretty tough to grieve
when other people's choices
had such a profound impact
on where you find yourself today,
whether
caregiving or
in other parts of life,
We talk about these very
difficult dynamics and then take
in someone who's taken
on caregiving either as a career
or has gravitated towards caregiving
for the individual.
And you can appreciate that
at some point
caregiver would just wish
that it would all just come
to an end not
because they don't love
the person they're looking after
but just
because they don't know
how much longer they
can survive it like what does it mean
when you get to that point
what does it mean when you get
to that point?
It's, um,
I mean,
that's
where things can really start to change
for you at that point, right?
When it gets to that,
that's the level that a
lot of people have to get
to before they're gonna start
to choose themselves differently,
right?
And unfortunately, that's
That can be quite excruciating
and it really can be painful,
but sometimes that's
the very thing we need to start
to kind of crack us open
and get a different perspective
on things and to look
at ourselves differently.
So, yeah.
You know,
there's the other side
of that coin there too.
And that can be where we start
to find that freedom
that we've been looking for.
So...
You know, that's brilliant,
actually,
because all along you're saying,
I got this, I got this, I can do this,
and it piles on, and it piles
on, and it piles on.
You're just in this state,
and then suddenly
that realization as you...
Elegantly put it
that once you realize
you can't survive...
There's the wake-up call to take
perhaps a couple
of really important steps,
albeit
in a very energy depleted state,
which always makes those
steps feel like leaps, but
important nevertheless.
yeah, they're, they're,
Absolutely.
They're, they're,
That's a real pivot point.
So how can then a
caregiver actually stop
abandoning themselves
without abandoning
the person who needs their care.
there's gotta be a fine line.
And I'm sure, and it's not unique
to caregiving, but anytime there's
that sort of dynamic,
How do we not abandon
those who need us when we're trying
to avoid abandoning ourselves?
I don't think there's a way
to go from, you know, being
in an extreme, I haven't found one
at least, that to go from being
in the extreme side of that line
and then coming right back
to the line, right?
And it often looks like we have
to kind of, the pendulum has
to kind
of swing a little bit
in the other direction, or we have
to,
and it's going to feel really uncomfortable
that we have to...
you know, go to the place
where we really, you know,
need to put ourselves first.
And if that looks like
abandoning someone else temporarily,
then that's what it's
going to look like.
Right.
It is, I think, you know,
that the, the,
creating that line is after getting
to that fine line, we really have
to go on the other side
and really choose ourselves first.
And then we can start to have the,
you know, the ability to start
to trust ourself and have discernment
and understand how
to show up in these relationships
when we're not, you know,
giving from an empty cup
and we're able to give
to ourself first.
And then we can kind of find
that line.
I don't think there's a way
to go from
Um, at least I haven't found one
to go from, you know, when we're,
we're giving everything to this,
this other thing and to come back
to that fine line, I think we have
to come to the other side temporarily.
I guess it also depends
a little bit about what
reverting back to that line
where you can reenter yourself.
It doesn't have
to be a drastic walk away
and just shrug your shoulders.
I'm done here.
I'm never returning.
You can take some small steps
and at the same time acknowledge
that the care recipient
may have a little bit
of angst around that or may have
to go through some adjustment,
which is disquieting and uncomfortable
and
It's not done.
angry intent towards
the person who needs to adjust
to you sort of just resetting
yourself a little bit
and finding a bit of space
to choose yourself.
And I think that's an
important distinction because
that sort of, I'm out of here,
I'm not doing this again,
deal with it.
That's pretty challenging
and all, and it's not really adaptive,
and it's probably not responsible.
But there are ways you
can redirect responsibility
to yourself
by taking those small steps
and those first leaps accepting
the discomfort it might create,
as you really aptly pointed out,
Yeah.
And even, you know, even those,
and it doesn't have to mean,
you know, walking away for good
or anything like that,
but even small boundaries
feel really uncomfortable
and it feels like you're
abandoning the other person.
Right, it's...
The, and you know, any type
of boundary feels that way.
And, you know, so we have
to be kind of willing to kind
of feel that discomfort and get
on the other side before we can start
to find, you know, the place
where, you know, we're able
to show up for them and ourselves,
right?
Again, to be able to give
from that kind of full cup,
if you will,
and not from just continually giving
from an empty one.
um,
but it's going to feel
It's going to feel so unnatural
and dangerous for us to start
to kind of put ourselves first there.
And that's not, we learned early
on that we stay safe.
by giving to them and showing up
for them.
And so it's always going
to feel
Um,
Unnatural to a degree.
- Well,
I think we also need to be prepared
for what the dynamics
of the family have conditioned
in the care recipient.
And if they say,
how could you ever do this
to me?
How could you,
How could you hurt me this way?
How could you neglect me this way?
You know,
that's just the system trying
to reestablish the former dynamic.
And I think you need to be mindful
of the potential behaviors
that could arise in others
when you try to reset yourself
and recreate some boundaries
and understand
that it's just a response
and that too shall pass.
not necessarily
automatically being
drawn back into your original role
and not getting a chance
to stand in
that new boundaried-off territory.
And again, any disappointment
or any pushback
on the system is going to
feel very dangerous to yours.
Right.
It's, it's, that's,
that's what we were, again,
that is, that's what kind
of created so much of this dynamic
in ourselves anyway, was the,
the fear of that, um, disappointment
or the fear of the pushback
or the fear of upsetting them
or the fear of, um,
you know, to upsetting the system.
So...
Well, Greg,
this has been an amazing conversation,
and you bring a lot of experience
and wisdom to the table,
but there are some
listeners today who
might be really tired, burned out.
Caregiving across numerous domains.
What would you say
to the caregiver listening
right now who...
feels selfish.
Wanting part of their life back.
can't just take the first steps.
What would I say?
It's...
The most important
relationship we have in this world is
with ourselves.
That's, you know, and, and our ability
to fully show up, uh,
for other people, I believe stems
from the relationship we have
with ourselves and, um,
And if we prioritize
that relationship first,
I really believe
that that's how we can show up
for other people, um,
in the best possible way.
And so, again, this kind of concept
of, you know, if I can give,
if I put the oxygen mask
on myself first,
that's how I can really start
to show up for other
people effectively.
But I cannot be effective,
truly effective,
if I'm giving the oxygen mask away
and starving myself.
Um, and that's a, that's a,
again, that's a very scary place
for a lot of people.
It feels very unnatural,
but yeah.
Um,
It's not about abandoning
other people.
It's about, you know,
pouring into ourselves
is how we really can show up as a
Um,
as a really effective caregiver
for other people.
So then
if someone listening recognizes
themselves.
in this
conversation we've had today
for the first time, they're just sort
of realizing
Oh my God, that's me.
What's the first thing you'd want them
to understand about what's happening
to them in this moment of realization?
Nothing inside of them is broken.
There's nothing bad in them.
There is nothing wrong with them.
their system is working
absolutely perfectly
um it was um it adapted and um
and we can recondition
the system we can we
can we can we can work with the system
in a way that we can start
to suit our lives now and we can get
to the place
where these patterns
these very intelligent patterns
and programs that were developed
for us to you know survive
and and and function in our lives
when we were younger um
They were intelligent,
they make sense, and
And we can start to step out of them.
We don't have to let them,
you know, run our life now.
with decades of experience caring
for others and nursing and working
in addictions and
Now.
Trauma-informed coaching
If you had a message to,
tell yourself 30 years ago.
what would it be?
You're enough.
You're enough.
Again, I think that's, for many folks,
it's this, I'm never enough
or I'm too much.
I have to, I have to be on
for other people.
I have to constantly be earning love
and affection from other people.
And I think, you know, for me
in particular, looking back
on my younger self, it would be,
you're enough.
you're enough, you're worthy,
- You matter.
want to thank you for your time
and your honesty.
You really brought this
into perspective
for a lot of people today,
and we appreciate you
joining the podcast.
This wraps up episode three
of season three.
here at the Caregivers Podcast,
and we're thrilled that you joined us.
Leave us a comment.
We're interested
to hear what you think
because it shapes ideas
and it shapes future episodes.
I'm your host, Dr.
Mark, and we'll see you next time.
If this conversation
felt uncomfortably familiar,
you're not alone.
Greg,
thank you
for being here and for
helping us name the
patterns that can hide
underneath caregiving.
and for showing that caring
for someone else should not have
to mean disappearing yourself.
And if this episode meant something
to you, please share it.
Please subscribe
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Before we wrap up, I wanted
to remind you of something important.
The conversations you hear
on this podcast are here
to inform, to support,
to spark reflection.
You're not a substitute
for professional medical advice,
care, therapy, or crisis services.
Listening
to this podcast does
not create a doctor-patient
or caregiver-client
relationship between us.
If you're facing a medical concern,
health challenge,
a mental health challenge,
or a caregiving situation
that needs guidance, I encourage you
to reach out
to a qualified professional
who knows your story.
If you're ever in crisis,
please don't wait.
Call your local emergency number
or recognize crisis
hotline right away.
You deserve real-time help
and support.
The views you hear on this show,
whether from me or my guests,
are our own.
They don't necessarily
reflect any organizations we work
with, are part of, or have worked
with, or been part of in the past.
This podcast is an
independent production.
It's not tied to any hospital,
university, or healthcare system.
Thank you for being here,
for listening, and most of all,
for taking the time to care
for yourself while you continue
to care for others.
I look forward to hearing
from you.