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Unlocking Retail Media is the essential podcast for leaders and marketers navigating the rapidly evolving world of retail advertising. We move beyond day-to-day operations to explore the strategic future of the industry, covering major investment trends, the shift to hybrid marketplace models, and the existential disruption posed by Agentic Commerce. Host James Avery brings in top industry veterans and visionary founders to analyze how ground-breaking technology is transforming customer journeys, influencing product catalogs, and forcing retailers to rethink on-site, in-store, and digital media strategies to remain competitive in the modern age.
Melissa Burdick: [00:00:00] There's about 20 touchpoints a brand needs to have with a consumer before they buy. And some of those touch points start on TikTok and then they end on Amazon or where the conversion happens. And so just this ability, so like retail media and like commerce media I guess if you wanna call it, has expanded from this touchpoint phase.
And so if you think about that Nolan, your path of how people are discovering to buying products, that's, that's kind of like now the ecosystem that we're dealing with. That we're able to kind of identify, activate, and measure within this, this ecosystem that we're working within.
James Avery: Welcome to Unlocking Retail Media, the podcast where we explore the evolving world of retail media from data strategy to monetization and everything in between. This is where we break down how retailers can build smarter data-driven media networks by aligning with what brands truly need from scalable ad solutions and meaningful metrics.
To cross channel [00:01:00] attribution and programmatic strategy, welcome to unlocking Retail Media. Uh, today I am excited for a conversation about where Commerce Media is headed and what it takes to build it in the right way. Uh, my guest is Melissa Burdick. Co-founder and president of PAC View, uh, Melissa is one of the true builders in this space.
Uh, she spent 10 years at Amazon helping launch major parts of the CPG business and was there as Amazon advertising started to take shape. Uh, now at PAC View, she's helping shape how brands and retailers actually win in commerce media. Uh, today we're gonna dig into some of the biggest themes of the year ahead, including incrementality, the three pillars of commerce, media, and what brands and retailers need to get right as the space matures.
Melissa, thanks so much for doing this. It's great to have you on.
Melissa Burdick: Yeah, ditto. Thanks for having me.
James Avery: So, I, before we, before we kind of jump into some of the topics, I, I thought it'd be great to kind of do a little bit of the, the, the background, the history of like, uh, PAC View. So, uh, you know, kind of starting from the beginning, like you were, you know, you were at Amazon for, you know, the, a [00:02:00] decade, right?
Like in the early days of like the beginning of retail media really.
Melissa Burdick: Yeah. So yeah, I spent 10 years at Amazon. I helped launch the consumables business in 2005 when you actually had to turn your name badge around backwards at trade shows 'cause nobody actually wanted to be on Amazon. Um, so that was, that was a long time ago.
And then I also was kind of early in the pioneering stage of creating. Ads on, on Amazon. So I got, uh, I, I like to call Amazon the cheapest MBAI didn't have to pay for because it was all I learned so much. But, um, I left Amazon in, on September 29th. I remember it really well 'cause that was my birthday, 2017.
I got the API from Amazon to, in the advertising, um, Amazon advertising API, and they had just started this kind of. You know, partner network thing. Nobody had the API, it was literally just, I, I would call it like, as part of the Amazon mafia of like having the network of all the people that I used to work with.
Um, they knew me [00:03:00] and so they asked if I wanted it and I said yes. And I met my partner Joey. He had worked with my husband for 10 years at Microsoft. They had built Microsoft ad Center and my husband started tinkering around with this API for me, as I was trying to figure out how can I use this to help brands.
And he invited Jwe over for dinner thinking that he and Jwe would build this company together. And by the end of that dinner, JWE and I had decided that we were gonna build Pac View. Yeah. And my husband decided that he'd have to go back to corporate while I do the startup. And he bought himself a boat and called it Corporate Consolation Prize.
So
James Avery: I like it.
Melissa Burdick: That's the story. That's the real story.
James Avery: I love it. That's a great founding story. Um, and how, and so how, uh, so yeah, maybe give people a quick overview of where, where PAC View sits. So we know it's, we know it's based on, you know, Amazon APIs as well as a lot of other APIs now.
Melissa Burdick: Yeah.
James Avery: Um, but what's the, what's the kind of elevator pitch for, for PAC view to, to brands?
Melissa Burdick: So I'd [00:04:00] say we've scaled significantly and we've added lots. I mean, we are, we sit on over 100 retailers at this point. So we were kind of, we started with Amazon. We started with one market and expanded globally, expanded retailers. But I would call us an AI powered. Commerce system that helps brands and agencies manage, optimize, measure and grow their business across all these retailers.
So that's, you know, we started, um, just kind of in this one space of Amazon. But then as you know, in 2020 or whenever, you know, COVID hit everything, moved to retail media networks and there's this huge explosion and we started working with Walmart and Alpha Instacart. In early stages, so like everyone was coming to, to, to be the, we were helping drive the demand and helping really kind of build APIs with them, given our expertise in the area.
So that's kind of where we're at today. And now we have a huge amount of enterprise brands and agencies that we work with to help accelerate them.
James Avery: Awesome. [00:05:00] Yeah, I, I always think of it as, you know, I think one of the, one of the trends or one of the things people keep talking about in the industry is. Is, you know, the proliferation of retail media networks and it's like getting so, you know, there's gonna be so many new ones all the time.
But that's kind of a, like a good thing for PAC View and really you guys kind of cut through that for the brand. So it doesn't matter if there's another 10, you know, in in the next six months because if they can buy and, and manage and, and get reporting all through a single interface, it doesn't really matter if there's, there's another 10 or 20.
Right.
Melissa Burdick: Right. I mean, we're sitting, we're basically unifying all the fragmentation. Nobody wants to log into five, even 10, even 20 retailers, and have UIs that they're trying to operate across. So we're basically kind of like the single pane of glass that's across all these retailers that helps enable people to just kind of scale the retail media across all of them with some consistency.
Um, so yeah.
James Avery: That's awesome. And I think it's great that I think, uh, for today, like it's like [00:06:00] you're, you get to bring a perspective that's, that's really interesting for, uh, for like, you know, most of the people listening to this I think are running a retail media network and they're thinking about, you know, one, what should I be, you know, what should I be exposing, what should I be building?
What are the, you know, interesting new. Uh, you know, things that should enable, but also I think you have that brand perspective. 'cause at the end of the day that's, that's the kind of customer you're working with is that brand who, who is looking to, you know, spend on different retail media networks.
Melissa Burdick: Well, we consider ourselves like a really good partner for the retailers.
So retail where our customers really, you know, retailers and brands and agencies. 'cause we're trying to help the retailers. Um, usually the retailers are coming to us as they think about even creating retail media networks. 'cause they're like, who should we work with? What tech stacks should we have? Can you help us with feedback on our APIs?
You know, things like that because we've been doing it for so long. So really involved in the process with them.
James Avery: That's awesome. And so [00:07:00] thinking from, like, from the brand side, what does, you know, what does retail media actually feel like right now? Like, is it, you know, are brands still excited about it? Do they feel like it's, you know, frustrating and messy?
You know, what, what's the sentiment you hear from that side?
Melissa Burdick: I think that, so if you go back maybe two or three years, it was kind of like a non-negotiable. It's like you'll be on retail media. Retail media is the big thing, and so everyone's kind of rushing into the retail media space. Then there is this like kind of, you know, Roadrunner like kind of.
You know, backing up the, the feed a little bit of like, whoa, is this incremental? Are we just shifting pro, you know, budgets and products from one retailer to another retailer? Um, it's really difficult because when you're in a silo and you're looking at one retailer and another retailer, their ROAS metrics.
Are their own. It's like within that retailer metrics. So your ROAS may look amazing, um, but actually it's not really incremental. So [00:08:00] we like to look at I ROAS metrics and really this ROAS kind of number is a little bit, wouldn't call it fake news, but it's, it's just not as helpful to understand a holistic picture when you're looking across your full portfolio.
So I'd say for brands, they're. Um, optimistic about retail media and that it, it, it's very measurable. It gives them really great metrics and KPIs immediately, which is a lot better than some other things where they can actually tie it to sales. But I'd say that there's a little bit more of a big eyeglass that they're using now to say, is this incremental?
Can you know, is it driving results for my business? Am I getting the best bang for the buck out of it? How can I be efficient and effective with my dollars?
James Avery: Yeah, so they're getting a little more, a little more careful with how they're spending or a little more results oriented. Right? Instead of just throw, throw some budget into retail media, it's actually show me that this is working like, like prove.
Prove that there's value in the dollars I'm spending.
Melissa Burdick: Exactly. Yeah. [00:09:00]
James Avery: Do you think that's like a, like a change? 'cause we still, you know, there's a number of retailers we still talk to where, you know, they're, they're kind of still getting like trade dollars
Melissa Burdick: mm-hmm.
James Avery: But they wanna get the performance dollars.
Melissa Burdick: Yeah.
James Avery: And do you think that's the same kind of, that's the same shift that has to happen right? To, to kind of get, unlock the, the performance budgets from just the, you know, kind of trade dollars. They're kind of guaranteed.
Melissa Burdick: Well, that's why the big word is full funnel campaigns that everyone's going towards is because, you know, when you have just sponsored products and it's a little bit more tied to a sale, but the minute you can get into more brand budgets with like streaming TV ads, um, then you can really get into some performance budgets.
So I'd say like the big, the big push is full funnel campaigns. If you hear that, that kind of messaging, it's because the more you can get onsite offsite dollars. The more you can get into upper funnel budgets. And so that's the name of the game is how do you, how do you increase kinda the offerings that each of these retailers have?
That's why there's a lot of [00:10:00] partnerships with Trade Desk. Um, yeah. Trying to get into more of the budgets that are, uh, brand budgets. 'cause those are, those are huge, you know, DSP big dollars that they can get into.
James Avery: Yeah. I think it leads into, I think I teased this in the intro, um, but really the, the kind of three pillars of commerce media.
Melissa Burdick: Mm-hmm.
James Avery: Kind of how, how you think about, uh, you know, what are, what are those three pillars, um, you know, how do you, how do you think about, you know, how brands and retailers should both be thinking about that.
Melissa Burdick: So I, I've had this concept of, uh, the three pillars and the, and kind of why they each have different playbooks.
So one is discovery commerce, and that's kind of like the TikTok, you know, Instagram, kind of like where are people going to discover? Find brands. So a lot of people are going to TikTok and the type of content that you need on TikTok is, is like upper funnel, more kind of higher level content, you know, influencer marketing, uh, using [00:11:00] influencers.
The next pillar is retail media. So that's the, you know, hundreds of retailers where you can have sponsored products, you can, you know, buy into their networks. And then the last pillar is our newest one this year. Um, if you were at Cee s you heard this word all the time, but agenta commerce, and that's the trend.
Uh, I think that we know the least about this and the model continues to change, but that's where people are going to check GBT and LLMs to ask, you know, what should I be buying? So. Each of those pillars, each have different playbooks. The last one is the biggest experimentation one because really it's, you know, as we speak it, it's kind of like what retail media was when it first started.
Now it's like this phase of magenta commerce that's starting to, to play out.
James Avery: And how do you think, um, 'cause like we, we talk about ag agentic a lot, uh, and I think, you know, we're all kind of, you know, watching what's going on and there's new announcements every day. Uh, you know, I, I [00:12:00] kind of go back and forth on, on how big do I think it'll actually be?
Like, will, will people really be, you know, telling chat TBT to buy them something? Right? Will they be, you know, I think obviously everybody's using it for research. Um, how do you, how do you think about it from a. From like a retailer perspective, if, you know, if I'm a, if I'm a retailer and I'm like, I've all, you know, they probably have a list of 20 things to do, right?
Like all the, all the different things they're trying to catch up on, you know, where, how should they prioritize AgTech, you know, when you, when they think about the whole, the whole stack.
Melissa Burdick: I think that AgTech is an area you have to experiment and understand. I actually really like Walmart's approach to the market where, and I don't know if you, this is Jason Goldberg's NRF presentation that I just found fascinating and he, when he presented, he said.
Two years ago they were in executive meeting and they're asking the Cee o um, you know, the CEO's asking his executive team, how did you prepare for this meeting using ai? And the team was like, well, AI is banned at [00:13:00] Walmart. And so that was two years ago. And so that they fixed that and they let you know every associate has access to AI tools.
They created internally, like Marty Sparky, they're experimenting with the, they were one of the first ones to announce a relationship with chat, GBT. So they're out there really trying to figure it out and experiment. And it's kind of like in that early stages of the, you know, cycle where it's not really in use yet, but they're figuring it out.
And so that's where we're with chat, GBT. It's like if you're not experimenting and like creating the relationships and understanding how it's working, like the model where it's at today, it's gonna be. So advanced in a year from now like it's gonna be, and if you're not starting to experiment and understanding it today, then you're gonna be definitely left behind.
One of the LLMs that, do you work with ru? Do you use Rufus a lot on Amazon?
James Avery: I've tried it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the price history thing was fascinating. Like the Yeah. That they recently launched with that. Yeah.
Melissa Burdick: I mean, it really, I, I use it so much now. At first, you know, people are like, oh, [00:14:00] nobody's using rufuss, but like, I needed to buy an adapter for my electric car that works at the Tesla adopter and like all this like, complicated stuff.
And I asked Rufus, I was like, give me the Tesla, adapt, you know, gimme the adapter that works with my BMW car that works to, and it gave me what I needed. Like that would've been, I would've had to like read a product detail page and like try to figure out, does this work with my car? But I asked Rufuss and it like literally gave me the right ASIN that I needed.
So that, that was super helpful to me. And like I'm, I'm starting to use it more and I find it. A great assistant. So like that ex I would, I would encourage people to start using rufuss on Amazon and see if it helps you with your life, because I could see chat GBT morphing, I mean the chat GBTs, it's experimenting with models.
I love how a year ago they said we'll never be in ads. And then now they've announced we're in ads.
James Avery: Every, everything comes back to ads. Eventually it's, we're, we're we all, we were all watching that announcement and laughing because we were like, we know, we knew ads were gonna come.
Melissa Burdick: Yep. [00:15:00] You, you and I are in the right business.
But yeah. Um, at first we were like, oh, I wonder if it is gonna come, but, um, yep. Here it is a year later. But I would, I would really start experimenting with these platforms because like I said, if you're not experimenting and kind of seeing where the puck is going, then you're gonna be left in the cold.
James Avery: Yeah, we've started, I, I can't name the retailer, but we were talking to a, um, kind of CPG retailer who had launched their own kind of rufuss equivalent, and they already saw where it was increasing basket sizes by 20%.
Melissa Burdick: Exactly
James Avery: like people that used it. It was like you were getting recommendations, you were getting additional recommendations, you were getting, you know, ideas of other things you should add, and just a straight 20% basket size increase.
Like that's a, you know, that's incredible. Especially for a CPG type, like retailer.
Melissa Burdick: Yeah, and it's, the consumer behavior is interesting. I have few kids, I forget. Do you have,
James Avery: yeah, yeah. Yep.
Melissa Burdick: I have two teenage kids and they're like the consum, I mean, a new TikTok shop or a new Amazon box is showing up at my door every day.
And their [00:16:00] be their consumer behavior, like some of the brands I've never heard of before. So they're discovering it one place, buying another, using Rufuss. I mean, so like if you look at the consumer behavior of our next generation, they're using all these native tools like it's, you know, easy.
James Avery: I have to, I have to watch TikTok to understand what my kids are talking about.
Melissa Burdick: Yeah.
James Avery: So I also have two teenagers, so it's like, it's like a chore where I'm like, okay, fine. I have to understand what are the, what are these trends now that we're gonna be talking about at the, at the dinner table. But yeah, I agree with you. It's like, uh, it's, and it's not always Amazon boxes showing up, right?
Like there's, there's boxes, you know, direct to consumer. Brands that I'd never heard of that they're, they're ordering from. Um, so a hundred percent, like see the same thing. And, and I like how that, that ties back to like the three pillars, right? Of like, how are you getting in that discovery phase? And you know, and I think we've always known retail media is closer to the, closer to the transaction, right?
Melissa Burdick: Yeah. Another, another thing that occurred to me that I think is really helpful to think about. I was in a presentation and whether this [00:17:00] is right or wrong, I don't know. The concept I think is, is helpful, but. There was this thing that, um, there's about 20 touchpoints a brand needs to have with a consumer before they buy.
And some of those, some of those touchpoint start on TikTok and then they end on Amazon or where the conversion happens. And so just this ability, so like retail media and like commerce media I guess if you wanna call it, has expanded from this touchpoint phase. And so if you think about that null on your path of how people are discovering to buying.
Um, products that's, that's kind of like now the ecosystem that we're dealing with, that we're able to kind of identify, activate, and measure within this, this ecosystem that we're working within.
James Avery: Yeah, and I think it's the same, like, I think, you know, you could also put in the discovery, you know, like all the work going on in CTV, right?
Like the retailers who are working on how do we. How do we target on CTV and then track the, you know, and then when they show up on the site, we're targeting 'em on the site. And then you're getting them all the way, all the way through [00:18:00] conversion. Like a hundred percent.
Melissa Burdick: Exactly. And that's why CTV, it's, you know, pretty cool what Amazon's done to democratize the space and be able to like just buy, um, without having to have big dollars into it.
But that's one more of the touch points is this ability to attract and find customers in, you know, cross streaming tv, which is where most people are watching TV these days.
James Avery: Absolutely. So we should talk, we should talk about what makes all this possible, which I know is also like, I think it's, uh, something PAC View and Keval have, uh, have in common, which is, which is thinking about APIs.
Melissa Burdick: Yeah. We are, um, I, I think my big phrase that I say to every retailer is, and I even have a sticker made up, uh, API first. And when I, when I thought about the sticker, actually, I thought, I'm gonna have this sticker I'm gonna put on my computer, and then I'm gonna open my computer when I have meetings with the retailers and they're gonna see it the whole time.
And then I was like, actually, it's pretty rude to have your computer open so that doesn't
James Avery: Yeah,
Melissa Burdick: doesn't work. [00:19:00] But it does work to hand. My AP API first stickers out, but it's really what unlocks ability to be, you know, fast, flexible, and, and be able to scale. It's so critical that it is API first, and I, I understand from a retailer perspective, sometimes it's hard because you wanna, you know, operate in the UI and then make sure it works and then push it into the API.
Um, but what's challenging about that is, especially for a platform like PACU, is that we're working with all the brands and agencies and so they don't get access. To the cool new stuff first if it's not pushed into the API and so that's the only way that, um, they'll be able to access it is if it's in the API for them to scale.
James Avery: Yeah, it's one of the things we've always, we've always been a big proponent of this and maybe 'cause like it's how we build as well. Like we'll launch something in our API before it's available in the ui. Uh, and to us it's like a requirement of how we do development. We're like, we're not gonna, we're not gonna put something in the UI that's, you know, not available through the API.
Uh, but I a hundred percent I agree. [00:20:00] When, you know, all the things we've talked about where, you know, there's so many retail media networks now. There's, brands are overwhelmed by the number of retail media networks. If you launch something just in your ui, if that customer is using PAC View, it's, they're not gonna use it.
Like, it's not available to them. Um, so where, where do you see that, where do you see that the kind of really play today? Like where, where's, where are things kind of too UI driven still and, and not enough API, uh, exposure.
Melissa Burdick: I think measurement is one of those areas that is hard. Um, Amazon has the gold standard of having Amazon Marketing Cloud, where they've really made their data available, uh, in a scalable way.
But that's, you know, we have about a hundred I think, variables that we always ask retailers for when we launch and we get, you know, depends on who the retailer is. Maybe we'll get 10%, 20%, 50% of the variables that we ask for. But I think that's. I think the measurement piece, which is really the critical part of, especially with brands [00:21:00] wanting to understand how well are, you know, is a retail media performing and the more signals that we can push into our algorithms helps, you know, this ecosystem be better.
So that's, that's kind of what I would say.
James Avery: Yeah, and I think it's kind of like, in my mind, it always goes back to. All the retailers are looking to drive, spend.
Melissa Burdick: Mm-hmm.
James Avery: Pac View works with, you know, most of the largest brands in the world. If, if you're not, if you're not exposing through the APIs to PAC View, how are you expecting the brands to, to spend?
Right. It just see, it feels like a very direct, like, uh, ROI for the retailers. Right. Expose percent. You like, if you expose more, you're probably gonna get more spend. Right.
Melissa Burdick: A hundred percent. Yeah. And it also just doesn't break things like that's, that's another challenge we have is when you have some manual things that you have to also address.
Um, we have a lot of times where [00:22:00] the, the problem will actually be on the retailer side, but the brand and agency might blame pa you 'cause like we're the interface. And so that, that's also a big. Big, uh, unhappy challenge for us is, um, just always, and because it's always so new, uh, it, it's sometimes an unknown, but all I can say is API is a way that we scale.
The fact that you build API first is amazing. Like, that's, that's such a feather in the cap for, for you guys, uh, and very helpful for the ecosystem.
James Avery: Yeah, I need to get, I'll put an API sticker on my laptop. Yeah. Um, or maybe, maybe I should put it on like my binder. I can put it on like my, my like notepad that I use in meetings or something somewhere.
So you're right, like you don't have the laptop open.
Melissa Burdick: You can put it on your phone. You can put it on the back of your phone.
James Avery: Yeah, that'd be perfect. We got like a, yeah. We'll get, we're looking at Keble cases. Maybe we'll get ke keville Pac view API first cases. Um. So thinking about this is like, I guess maybe almost more like shop talk between two people in the industry.
Like, [00:23:00] uh, I'm really curious how you think about the, like power users and like the, you know, I think you, we build, I know PAC View is, you know, has a lot of, uh, you know. Power user kind of settings and, and for the really, really good brands, then how do you think about that when it comes to like simplicity as well?
Yeah. You know, so I think retailers kinda have the same struggle of like, okay, do we, do we build a, a super simple self-serve or do we focus more on the APIs and those feeding the pack view? Or you know, how do you, how do you think about those different types of brands, right? Like that are looking for the more.
Comprehensive power user experience versus, you know, maybe a mid-market brand that just wants something simple.
Melissa Burdick: I think that's the beauty of our platform because we've basically built for all the scenarios. So if you are someone that, uh, I'll have a car analogy. My first car was a stick shift. That's how old I am, but I don't think they even make those kind of cars anymore, maybe in Europe.
But you know, if you want a stick shift, if you wanna have like tons of control. We have like a bunch of like rule-based bidding and like this ability to be very custom. If you wanna deep dive and [00:24:00] do things like that, you can do that. If you want the Tesla autopilot, like my husband just lets the Tesla autopilot drive for itself, you can do that.
So like we have kind of like the every kind of way that a brand may wanna work with us from like very, like specific, that takes a little bit more expertise. Like actually it's harder to be, you know, the stick shift. Like you actually have to have. More time invested in understanding how to do it. Um, or if you just wanna be easy and be like, here's my goal.
Just achieve that goal for me. We have that. And the other things, I'll give an example about how we're simplifying things for people when, and I, I have a lot of Amazon examples, so apologies. But that's where I'm like, I just, they have like the most robust and mature platform that's easiest to speak to in some cases.
But when they launched Amazon Marketing Cloud, you basically had to create SQL to use it. Like that was if you didn't, if you weren't able to write code, you basically couldn't get access to it. And so what we did at PAC View was we created a bunch of [00:25:00] templates that was like, here's a template for this to create an audience for new to grand customers.
So you didn't have to write sql, you could just use a template. And so that was, that's some of the ways that we were simplifying. And one of the, the ways that we like to, that, to talk about it is we're able, we're able to take the innovation from the retailers and scale it. Using our technology and our platform for brands and the agencies to take advantage of.
So that's if we're trying to simplify workflows, like we have a bunch of workflows that blow out multiple campaigns that you can create based on a no, uh, naming convention. So you can start with like, here's an idea now make it happen 50 times in an automated way. So there's, there's a lot of like functionality.
Um, and the fact that we understand the most mature retailer helps us with everybody else because, you know, we can then bring all that technology and functionality to everybody as well.
James Avery: Yeah, I still think everybody, every retailer is basically still chasing Amazon on the sophistication [00:26:00] of, of their RN.
Um, and I don't think a lot of 'em are close, but some of 'em are, are working hard. Uh, but like that's our, kind of our mission is like how do we, how can we help retailers build our mens as good as Amazon's? I don't think we're there yet. Like it's, you're, you know, it's a new, it's a, there's always something new that you're chasing.
Um, but I think it's great for, for all retailers should all be looking at Amazon and saying, this is, this is what a fully scaled, fully optimized RMN looks like. And it keeps changing every year. Right. They keep announcing the new, we were just, we were talking about before this, like some of the, you know, there's always new exciting stuff coming outta Amazon.
Retailers need to all, they pay attention to every one of 'em.
Melissa Burdick: I mean, in some ways it's kind of like the big brands come out with some big new functionality or brand and then the copycats come along and they create that brand. And it's like they did way less work in, in research and they did way less work and they are able to create a cool brand.
So in some ways it's, it's nice to have a playbook and a blueprint to, to aspire to that helps [00:27:00] you.
James Avery: Yeah, absolutely. So let's get into, um, and we're kind of jumping around, you know, brands are getting more serious about incrementality. You know, a lot of 'em are still pretty early on. And separating kind of real lift from, from like baseline demand.
Like how, how should you know, how should a brand be really thinking about, you know, effectively measuring incrementality?
Melissa Burdick: Um, you know, incrementality is a complicated subject and I think it's often misunderstood and sometimes it's a vanity metric where it's kind of not exactly what they're trying to measuring it is hard.
It, it requires some very custom models, but we're getting better at it because. Brands are getting more comfortable breaking down the data silos that allows for the cross channel and full funnel tracking. And sometimes the brands or the, you know, retailers aren't set up to be able to even give the data that you need to do this, but I think that we're in a state where it's, it's finally [00:28:00] becoming more available.
So that's, that's the good news. And then when you combine the advancements with machine learning that we have, that kind of is. Enabling all of us to be faster, to put the inputs in that we're getting more access to, and the output, um, using kind of latest technology to be able to crunch all the data and come back with an incrementality model.
That's actually pretty good.
James Avery: And how did, where do, like, where do clean rooms fit in?
Melissa Burdick: So I, when I asked that, um, Cee SI asked, what's 2026, the year, year of? And one of the retailers said to me, it's the year of the data, clean room and test and learns. So that's, I do think we're gonna hear a lot about that.
But, um, you know, they provide a privacy safe collaboration. Sometimes they're oversold because. You know, it's, it's, it's very powerful because the data's there, but it's not, it, it's not all the measurement models that's available so that it still takes like, um, the right [00:29:00] technology and intelligence to, to draw out all the insights.
But I think that, um, if we look at some of the things that Amazon Marketing Cloud enables us. It gives us access to tons and tons of data and the ability to create new metrics, new models based off of it. So that's, that's a real, and that's one of the areas that we're working on multiple retailers with, is being able to provide more of that back to brands.
James Avery: Yeah, it makes sense. And I think that, um, dovetails into, I think where we, we'll kind of wrap things up is thinking about, you know. The retailers listening to this, you know, what's, you know, you, you work with all these brands, you work with so many retailers, you know, a lot of spend goes through PAC View.
Yeah. What's your, what's your kind of advice if you're advising a retailer who's, you know, launching a new network or, or just starting to scale a network? You know, what's the, what's the first thing they should be focused on?
Melissa Burdick: Well, I'll bring my sticker out, which [00:30:00] is this
James Avery: perfect,
Melissa Burdick: this API first sticker. Um, and not, not to be, uh, self-serving in this, but I do think that retailers should reach out to the experts in the space.
And interview them like before they start a retail media network, they should talk to you. They should talk to PAC View. They should understand like the people that are building and doing these things can really be a steroid shot in the arm to help them understand what are the right tech partners I should be working with?
What are the watch outs? How can I build this effectively? Even in a co building kind of situation where it's like. You know, that's how we work with a lot of retailers is we're giving 'em, we find a lot of the buds. So that's why I know that we're like one of the first ones working on their platforms.
'cause we're finding all the buds. Uh, but we're really helping them kind of build together and having, I really think it takes a village to do commerce. And so really having a, you know, especially when they're first starting, having a partner first mentality, [00:31:00] uh, is gonna accelerate them and then later on they can, you know, figure out, like maybe they can bring more things in house, but the best way to get started is to start with the partners that are the experts, um, to really accelerate them.
James Avery: Yeah, it makes sense. And then. What do, what do you think retailers, you know, are underestimating about it? Right? Because we talk to a lot of retailers that are, you know, just getting started or, you know, they've, they've heard all this money sloshing around in retail media and they want, they want to get their, their piece of it.
Like what do they, what do you think they kind of underestimate about, about building an R Man?
Melissa Burdick: I think a lot of times, uh, one of the biggest things is if you build it, they will come. So I think that's, that's one of the biggest challenges. People think, oh my, okay, it's here now. Where's all my demand?
Where's all my sales? And it actually takes a lot of time, you know, like budgets are tied up, they don't have budgets to even use yet. So it's, it's, it's the length of time something takes and this concept that there's just gonna [00:32:00] be this. Day one turn on of like, okay, now I've built it. Where's all the brands?
Like it, it actually takes a lot of work to, to bring that demand to the table. Um, so
James Avery: yeah, it doesn't help that there's, uh, there's well-known consultancies out there telling retailers they can, you know, get to a hundred million dollar run rate in three years with very little investment. Uh, so there's a lot of times there's some, there's some inflated expectations going into it.
I
Melissa Burdick: definitely think so.
James Avery: And what do you think about, um, you know, what does, what does kind of winning look like, right? If you're starting a new retail media network, you're kind of three years in, uh, what does it, what does it look like to be successful?
Melissa Burdick: I think that success is defined by having a very stable, scalable, flexible system.
Integrate that is open with integrating a lot of the data signals, like available of inventory, promotions, coupons, tying kind of like the more e-commerce [00:33:00] components to advertising so that can feed and help have better advertising outcomes. Uh. That if you do those things, you'll have a very successful platform versus kind of building in a silo.
Retail media networks kind of launch and they launch in a silo and they don't take into account the eco any of the sales inventory, like the e-commerce components of the business. And so being able to launch. Having kind of that built into their system and having a little bit more of that democratized.
I, I, I, you know, look at what Amazon's doing in terms of how they've built and having that aspiration would be, um, pretty good.
James Avery: Yeah. This has been great. So, to close out, like what are, what are you most excited about over the next couple of years, like in in commerce media?
Melissa Burdick: Honestly, I'm just excited to see the next wave of model with the Gente commerce.
So this, you know, where is that going? How [00:34:00] honestly it's gonna make people's lives so much easier to be able to go to some kind of. You know, personalized agent that knows your size, your shape, what you like, and make recommendations of products that you can buy and then what the advertising is gonna be integrated into it.
You know, like I, I think that there's some pretty streamlined cool things that are gonna happen. And then this ability to, if it was 20 touch points before to buy a brand, it's it being able to consolidate that to three and have this like really efficient and effective. Way for brands to find their customers and to convert them is gonna be a really cool thing to watch.
James Avery: Yeah, I agree. I think it's gonna be, it's gonna be exciting to see, you know, it's really a, like a new shopping experience.
Melissa Burdick: That's
James Avery: right. And the last one was probably, you know, e-commerce 20 years ago. So we get to, we get to be here for another one.
Melissa Burdick: Yeah.
James Avery: Uh, which I think is gonna be exciting to see how it develops.
Melissa Burdick: We're gonna watch our teenagers teach us how to do it. [00:35:00]
James Avery: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, even though I'm still, I'm still, uh, threatening to make my kids learn how to drive a stick shift because my sister, my sister has a stick shift. Uh, it's like an old car, but I'm like, you gotta know how to do this. One day you're going have to drive a moving van, or you're gonna go, you're gonna go to Spain for the summer and you're gonna want to do this.
So, we'll see. I'll let you know if I'm successful in this, uh, mission of mine.
Melissa Burdick: Aren't we going the other direction where everything's gonna be automated and there there's actually not gonna be, the car's gonna actually drive you automated.
James Avery: I remember I told, I told somebody I was at like a dinner party, like five years ago, six years ago, and I was like, my kids are never gonna have to learn how to drive.
Yeah. You know, I was like, it's just gonna be, everything's gonna be self-driving. Well now they're both learning how to drive. One has their license and the other, uh, is, is learning how to drive now. So I think. It's taking longer, taking longer than I expected. So maybe I'll go, I'll go retro on 'em and make 'em, make 'em learn the stick shift.
Melissa Burdick: There you go. All right. Well, I'm sure if they get a car then they'll do anything for it, so
James Avery: Yeah, [00:36:00] that's true. That's true. That's a, that's a way to do it. Just only, I'll only get them a stick shift, so then they have to learn.
Melissa Burdick: Sounds good.
James Avery: Awesome. This has been great. Thank you so much for joining. Um, and obviously I think people can, you know, find you on LinkedIn or reach out and, uh, you know.
Uh, we're excited about everything PAC is doing in the industry. So excited to to keep in touch. Thanks for tuning in to unlocking Retail Media. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe and share this show with your network. We'll be back soon with more insights to help you navigate the future of retail media.
See you next time.