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First Things First by The First Things First Alaska Foundation (FTFAF) is broadcast monthly on KINY on Saturday at 9 a.m. and on KJNO on Sunday at 9 a.m. Each episode explores the balance Alaskans face: protecting our state's rugged beauty and vast wilderness while advocating for sustainable economic growth through responsible natural resource management.
With thousands of jobs lost in the past decades due to restrictive regulations, First Things First raises vital questions about the future of Alaska’s economy. Can we preserve our cherished landscapes, waterways, and wildlife while fostering prosperity for generations to come?
Join FTFAF as we explore essential areas for Southeast Alaska’s growth—highlighting education, advocacy, and smart development.
Back once again for another First Things First podcast. Be informed and get involved, and that is exactly what we are doing when we enter this studio, especially when I got the First Things First crew around me. We're gonna do a quick round table of introductions, and we're gonna dive right into this today, especially with spring and summer in the air. We gotta talk tourism, bud. Let's do the introductions first.
Speaker 2:Don Habiger with First Things First, executive director.
Speaker 3:Mac Miners.
Speaker 4:Frank Bergstrom, lifelong skier.
Speaker 5:Dave Hanna, lifelong skier.
Speaker 3:Oh, am too.
Speaker 1:I love that you guys had the skiing thing where we're gonna talk about spring and summer tourism. Not the best. How was skiing this year for you guys? It couldn't have been that great with that silence after that.
Speaker 3:Bill Corvus asked me if I went skiing this year, and I said, well, I never made it, which is very rare
Speaker 4:for me.
Speaker 5:Well, couple of times I went, it was actually pretty good.
Speaker 1:It's giving us plenty of time to talk about spring and summer, right, for you guys to get ready for it because obviously tourism gets brought up more and more and more around Juneau, what to do with it, how is it governed and where does it take us in the future? And I think that's where First Things First really likes to dig in. So let's I'm gonna ask this right out the gate, guys. Obviously, we all think a strong tourism economy is vital for Juno's future. But here's the big question behind that.
Speaker 1:How?
Speaker 2:How? Well, absolutely. Making sure that we have a viable economy. So summertime just means cruise tourism, and we have to accept that, and we have to manage it wisely. Our audience should remember that we started talking about, in February, the Auk Landing Project.
Speaker 2:That is a vital component to our infrastructure, and looking around the city at other projects is a part of what we're talking about tonight.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we wanna grow that industry. We wanna create jobs. We wanna sustain our economy. So we're looking for those places where we can do that effectively without impacting other people, without degrading the quality of life here, in fact, improving the quality of life. So let's always find those ideas that are going to take our economy to the next level.
Speaker 1:Where do you guys feel that's at right now? Where do those nuggets exist in Juneau? They got to be out there.
Speaker 3:But not many. We need more.
Speaker 4:Oh, no pessimism here. Dog gone it.
Speaker 3:Oh, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry. No, this is perfect. This is exactly what the First Things First podcast is for. You're speaking honesty.
Speaker 3:Well, you need something to do once you get off the boat. And if you want to get on a boat and go to another boat, there is an option. But if you were to get off and go to the top of one of the mountains like downtown, or let's say Eagle Crest, and you get up and walk around and see the view up there and take it all in, maybe they could have a zip line too. But I think very Well, do
Speaker 4:have a zip line, man. There is a zip line up It's fantastic, lots of fun. Took my little brother up there.
Speaker 3:Oh, once it stops snowing, don't go back.
Speaker 4:Well, that's just some of the tourism that is already existing up at Eagle Crest. In fact, is there is that zip line in a couple of years, one of the local businesses sponsored Big Brothers Big Sisters and I took my little brother up there, had a great time. It's more eagles in the trees type of deal where you're going from tree to tree rather than just that one great big trip when you're out at say Huna.
Speaker 3:I'd like to see bicycle riding too.
Speaker 5:Well, actually they do have mountain bike trails up there now. They've built a couple of really nice ones. Some of them are what you call an intermediate and there's one that it can be about as challenging as you want. You can get some pretty big air off it. But it's pretty amazing, there's a lot of tourism related activities up there now that most people don't know about.
Speaker 5:They actually have some Segway tours up there, there's some walking tours that go on up there. There's quite a bit of visitation up there from the visitor industry that most people aren't even aware of. Think there's some blueberry trees
Speaker 4:up there too, aren't there? Some really, really good ones in the late summer?
Speaker 5:Yeah, not sponsored.
Speaker 3:The tram would really help
Speaker 5:that one.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you're right. Get up there, some of the bushes that are up high.
Speaker 5:You know, it's been contemplated once the gondola gets built that it would be really important to make sure that it doesn't impact the local population because there's been a lot of discussion about this. The prior manager had a really nice plan laid out and it's pretty funny. It's actually a mirror of what's been promoted over the long range plans for Eagle Crest that have been developed over the last forty years. Every one of them talks about this sort of thing. They talk about a lift like a gondola going up to the ridge.
Speaker 5:They talk about different walking tours up there. They talk about different venues going on up there. And it's always kind of been envisioned that you would split the activities up there. So perhaps you would take the West side of the area and have the walking tours up there, maybe one of those mountain coasters, you could have a venue over at Cropley Lake and you would concentrate your visitor industry there and leave that whole East side of the mountain just for the Juneau visitors or the Juneau population because that's where most people go anyway, It's more open, it's less brushy, that's where most people like to wander around over there and that's where the best blueberry picking is. So, I think you're right, there is a big opportunity to spread out the visitors to Juno and do it so it really doesn't have a real detrimental effect on what we already enjoy here in Juneau.
Speaker 3:When are we gonna get the project going?
Speaker 1:Exactly, how does a conversation come up to get the people up there? I've always actually kind of wondered that, wondering why there are tour buses that actually go up to Eagle Crest and take advantage of that. Is that even offered from a cruise ship perspective when you're coming off the cruise ship?
Speaker 5:Well, there are tours that go up there now. Like I say, there's the walking tours, there's the Segway tours, and then actually there are some biking tours that start at Eagle Crest and they go down Eagle Crest Road and down the highway for a ways. So there are activities that go on there now and most people aren't even aware of them because they're pretty low impact.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I'm a valley guy. I see all the buses out in the valley going out to the glacier and, of course, getting dropped off at the bus stop right there on back loop. So that's what I get to experience. So they would be nice to spread that out a little bit and get them going up to Eagle Crest to take advantage of some of these things that are already up there, that's already beautiful.
Speaker 3:Well, there's a lot of talk but no action.
Speaker 5:Well, there's been a lot of challenges in moving that project forward but I think there's a lot of serious consideration being given right now to maybe envision another path forward on how to get the construction underway that they've already done quite a bit of work on it. There's a lot of engineering has been done. They've secured some additional parts for it so they'll be able to have a mid station so they can have people dropped off at the Cropley Lake area and it'll also allow the operation to run during low snowfall years where you'll be able to ski the top half of the mountain just running from the mid station on up to the top of the mountain. And if we have absolutely no snow at lower elevation, you'll be able to just get back on the gondola at the mid station and ride down to the lodge. So, it'll open up a lot of opportunities, you know, year round.
Speaker 4:So, Dave, sounds like you're really up on the mechanics of the gondola system. So, where does it start? Can you describe that to the listeners? Basically, where does it start? Where does it end?
Speaker 4:You say there's a mid station at Croppley Lake, so does it go right up to the ridge line?
Speaker 5:It does, so it starts right adjacent to the lodge that's there now, right in that little hollow down below, it starts right there and it goes up and there's a mid station. People that are familiar with the area, it's right by what we call the Beacon Park, where we have an area during the summer or the wintertime where we plant beacons out there and people can check their avalanche beacons.
Speaker 4:Oh, right, yeah, you see them out there digging around, like, Where's the gopher?
Speaker 5:Where's the gopher? Right. But that's fairly close to Cropley Lake there. So, there's a mid station plan for right there and then it does go up to the top of the ridge where there is some of the most beautiful views anyone can imagine. I mean, when you're sitting up there on that ridge line, you not only look out over the water and out over Admiralty and I mean, half the time you see whales down there in the water but you turn around and you look up over the ice cap.
Speaker 5:I mean, you're at a very good vantage point.
Speaker 4:No, it's good point. You've had lots of Colorado skiers come out and they ski those magnificent big areas back in Colorado and you take them up top of the ridge there and they go, Well, we got mountains, but we don't have this. The fjords and all that, that's just fantastic.
Speaker 3:Many years ago, the foundation put out a print by I think Nancy Stollington of Seymour Canal on the other side of the mountain, which I mean, I have it on the wall.
Speaker 2:So part of our introductions, you identified yourselves as a skier, but I didn't introduce myself as a non skier. But I am a taxpayer here in this town, so I have to ask a question of those that use the asset.
Speaker 3:Please
Speaker 2:do. Thanks, Mac. One thing I noticed in the FY 'twenty five budget, local taxpayers are paying just under 1,400,000.0 as a general fund subsidy to the ski area. Is there a way to alleviate that particular subsidy? What are the plans as skiers to make cost of living better here in Juneau.
Speaker 4:Well, think you've taken it on right there. We're starting to meld these things together here. How do we maintain Eagle Crest for the beautiful place that it is, for the skiing that it offers in the wintertime and grow the economy through tourism. And we're talking about the gondola, that's kind of the mechanism to get the summer operations going, could bring a lot of tourists up there, generate a lot of income for the area and support winter activities that are vital to many, many people around here. So we're starting to see the nexus here.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna have to agree with Mac on this one though. This all sounds great but that thing has been sitting on the side of the road for how many years now. So Dave, I have to ask, what are the limitations of this thing? Where are we at with this thing? Anything?
Speaker 5:Well, the limitation is basically been getting the contracts going. And people are all concerned about the machinery sitting on the side of the road but truthfully, what you see sitting on the side of the road is built to sit on the side of a mountain in all weather all year long. There's not any serious deterioration going on there. The critical components that need to be sheltered have been sheltered down in the shop at Eagle Crest. So those things are well taken care of.
Speaker 5:So the concerns people have that the thing is rapidly deteriorating, it's not gonna be any good are really not well founded. It's not gonna hurt it to sit there and it can certainly be spruced up before it's put on the mountain.
Speaker 4:Well, what can we really do to accelerate it, to move this project forward as expeditiously as possible and get it into production, get it into operation?
Speaker 5:Money. Well, you're not entirely incorrect there, Mac. I mean, it all takes money. There's a fair amount of money still available to construct the gondola but it's a sort of a take the bull by the horn sort of thing. And there's been some problems.
Speaker 5:Everybody's been really busy for one thing. I mean, the city engineering department has kinda had their hands full with this whole Yokalup situation. They did hire some folks to help manage the project and there were some problems that happened there, some shuffling going on. But I think the focus is coming into play now to probably turn the project over hopefully to a private entity to go ahead and just move forward with the construction which would certainly accelerate the process and probably be a money saver.
Speaker 3:So you're saying they're dragging their feet?
Speaker 5:Not intentionally.
Speaker 2:If enough money, don't we already have private investment in the project?
Speaker 5:We do, know, Goldbelt
Speaker 2:How's that going? Are they getting return on that? Any thoughts on that, Dave?
Speaker 5:Well, the gondola needs to be in operation, I believe it's May of twenty twenty eight. And in time for the summer season of 2028. And at that point, Gold Belt needs to start getting a return on their investment. That was the deal and that's what has to happen. So it's really imperative that the project actually starts breaking ground this summer.
Speaker 5:The city engineering department is trying to move forward to see about started, getting some rock blasted to build the access roads. So, situation that they're in, I think they're doing the best they can.
Speaker 4:Is there a project plan? Presumably we have something to build. So, if you have something to build, you're
Speaker 5:gonna have
Speaker 4:a plan. Plan, people, money, time.
Speaker 5:Scope, schedule and budget.
Speaker 4:Scope, schedule and budget, you got it.
Speaker 1:That's the big three.
Speaker 5:So yeah, it's been pretty well identified but getting somebody under contract to actually get started is always challenging. I think they're getting closer. Really do.
Speaker 1:When did
Speaker 3:they start this project or when did the gondola arrive in Juneau? Boy, time About a year and a half.
Speaker 5:Yeah, something like that, right, right.
Speaker 3:So it's just kinda
Speaker 5:countering out. There's a lot of engineering has been done. Most of the engineering for the tower bases is either done or well underway. So that's good. There's been some rethinking what would get constructed at the top.
Speaker 5:Some of us were concerned that a little bit too much consideration was Well, if I was little retiree
Speaker 3:and I didn't I was in my like 70s and didn't feel like skiing anymore and I was in the situation that Don's in, sitting by the edge of the river waiting for the tide to come in. I would kind of wonder when it's costing me money. So, the longer it sits out there, the more money it costs us, especially now that we know that we're going to get taxed a little more on our property. So I mean, I've heard that complaint for many years and my response was, It's the town's biggest babysitter and it's better than therapy.
Speaker 5:Well, it certainly is crucial for the well-being of this community. It is so heartening. When you're riding that chair and you see all those kids come ripping down that mountain just whooping and hollering and you think, Thank goodness they're here instead of sitting on their Nintendo or whatever or hanging out at the mall or whatever. It's wonderful therapy for this town.
Speaker 4:Well, that kind of enthusiasm on the hill, maybe we put them in charge of the project and they'll get the thing built. So in other words, is there a problem with the structure there? I mean, generally, when you got some, you got the money, you got that budget we were talking about, you got the schedule, get going, let's get her done.
Speaker 3:Get her done.
Speaker 4:So, if the guy's doing it now, bless their hearts, aren't getting it done, maybe it's time to go to plan B.
Speaker 5:Well, I think they're totally amenable to that, I really do. Think
Speaker 3:there So there must be some holdup somewhere. I mean, believe me, my boys went up there and we skied hard for many, many years. And when you look back on it and you look at your children and say, Wow, they're still skiing. They really like it. And it's kind of like the swimming pool.
Speaker 3:I mean, I'm not trying to change the subject, but everybody complains about the pool.
Speaker 4:Well, know us old guys, heck if there wasn't wood skis, low shoes, hiking to the top of the hill, I wasn't skiing. What's this, you know, but this isn't those days, this is new days, we like those lifts, we wanna move people up the hill and sell some tickets.
Speaker 3:Well, was a third cabin skier and a second cabin skier until it shut down, and then Eagle Crest started up and I went up there and rode the Palma because that was skiing and I can remember the old pictures in Percy's Cafe. Remember those Dave up there on the wall? Third cabin, Juno Ski Club. I'm a big supporter of the club.
Speaker 2:So Dave, a couple of times you talked about getting into contract or securing our contracts to complete the gondola or the, you know, whatever. Are there any concerns from our skiers about that? Are we on track? Or is there some issues that we need to be aware of as non skiers, for example?
Speaker 5:No, I definitely think there's issues. It's really unfortunate that we don't already have somebody under contract. I think there's been a couple of missed opportunities there and it's just an unfortunate set of circumstances, I believe. I hate to point fingers at anybody because everybody has been trying to work on this but they've had other things on their plate and I think they've all come to the realization now it's like, okay, the proverbial move or get off the pot, this has gotta happen and I'm hoping in the next few weeks that you'll see some definitive action in that regard.
Speaker 2:So what other structures are out there, Dave, that might work for Juneau?
Speaker 5:As far as building the gondola or operating the Well,
Speaker 2:let's say making Eagle Crest. Let me take a step back here. In kind of looking at different governance models, somebody directed me to Bogus Basin. And so I had to do a little research, but Bogus Basin is a Idaho ski resort. It's a 501c3.
Speaker 2:They have an agreement with the US Forest Service there to use their land. But what I found really exciting about this particular model is it's governed by a board, again, nonprofit. But their revenues were $24,000,000 They have both summertime as well as wintertime activity. Their expenses are $20,000,000 and guess what? The nonprofit has $4,000,000 in their pocket at the end of twenty twenty four.
Speaker 2:So is there a model out there that would work for Juno? So me as a taxpayer who doesn't ski, doesn't have to put in my share of 1,400,000.0 annually to make the project whole.
Speaker 5:Well, you kinda hit the nail on the head with the summer and winter activities like we've talked about here is that the fact of the matter is Juno does not have a big enough skiing population and it's remote enough that it would never draw enough population from other places to sustain the ski area. That's part of the problem we're facing now is for the last forty or fifty years, we've been operating, bringing enough money with a 1,400,000.0 subsidy from the city to keep the operation going but not enough to replace any of the lifts or the continuing maintenance. We always wanted it to make affordable. So, the rates were kept low. The reality is those ski areas down south, the bulk of them all make their money in the summer.
Speaker 5:Some of them it's off the golf courses. Some of them it's off the mountain coasters. Some of it's off all the condos that they rent out but they make the bulk of their money in the summer. And Bogus Basin is a good example of that and there's so many others like that. And there are models we could use whether it was a public benefit corporation where it was still owned by the city but it was managed like a private entity so it didn't have to go by the city procurement rules, the city hiring and firing rules, what have you.
Speaker 5:It could be leased out to someone that operated as a public benefit corporation but under a strict set aside boards where it had to be managed so the summer revenues created enough income to not only keep the area going and rebuilt but keep the user rates for the wintertime users down at the level we're at now. And so there's a lot of different ways to do that. I mean, you have like Tawasaki area is a public benefit corporation. There's some areas where it's owned by a municipality but it's run by a private company. So there's a lot of different models we could follow but we really need to start taking a serious look at this and see if there's some way that the city could let somebody else take over management of the area and be a little more responsive.
Speaker 5:The ski area is a very dynamic, volatile business and you have to be very reactive sometimes and government can't do that. They can't just at the drop of a hat buy something that's the best deal and it's what they need. There's things they cannot do and rightfully so.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm gonna put the of the nail on that one, or hit the head, whatever that expression is. But as a resident of the river, I noticed that our long term forecast for a permanent solution is ten years. I'm gonna agree with you, Dave, that we don't get things done very quickly around here.
Speaker 3:Well, can I ask a question? Does Eagle Crest have a five zero one(three)? No, why don't they?
Speaker 5:Well, we have what's called the Eagle Crest Foundation.
Speaker 3:Well, let me just interject this. If you had a five zero one(three), you could start your own lottery. And if you look at the lottery in Alaska, it's caught fire. And so, if you're going to fund something like this that isn't going to make any money, you might as well generate it through something like that. And then everybody can reap the, you know, benefits of it.
Speaker 3:I mean that's just one idea. That's just me. I'm sorry. But I'm just thinking about the longevity of it. I like to ski, I always have.
Speaker 3:And it's a lost leader.
Speaker 4:So there's an idea right there. We got another idea. But we were also talking about summer activities being the way to generate income from outside folks, a lot of outside folks relative to the number they're using in the wintertime. So Dave, in this concept that you've got here, you're not talking about changing the ownership, just the management and operation.
Speaker 5:Correct. We certainly don't wanna change the ownership of Eagle Crest. I mean, that needs to stay a city asset and the city needs to have control over it. No matter what you did, even if a private entity took over total management of the area, you would have to have a citizens advisory board that And it wasn't advisory, it would be I'm trying to think what the correct term would be
Speaker 4:know,
Speaker 5:direct
Speaker 4:Let's go with
Speaker 5:advisory. Advisory is a little weak in my opinion.
Speaker 3:Do you think they're overbearing in any way and do you think that they hinder the operation at all being the way it's run as far as the city's involvement and a board and a foundation and a lot of ideas out there. There's nobody who just went to hammer and say, Well, I'm sorry, this is what we're gonna do. Just too much confusion with too many Well,
Speaker 5:and that's my point is, you know, government can't function like a private business and they shouldn't be able to. I mean, they have a public responsibility. They have the public's money. They shouldn't be able to just run out and buy whatever they want at the drop of a hat. They need to be able to justify it.
Speaker 5:They can't just hire and fire at a whim but the reality is in a business that's like I say is so dynamic and so ever changing like the ski area industry, when something goes wrong, you don't have time to go through a procurement process. You don't.
Speaker 3:Need to just Have a wrench, baby.
Speaker 5:You need to order your parts right now and if all of a sudden you realize the industry has changed and the wage scale that you've been operating at is not enough, you don't have time to go through redoing the whole wage scale and going through the whole public process to raise that wage. You need the ability to say, okay, well we need that person over there and they want another 10,000 a year. I guess we're gonna have to pay it. And you need that ability. And you also need the ability to just say, You know, maybe you're not a good fit for this place.
Speaker 5:Maybe you should find employment elsewhere. And you can't just do that as a government entity.
Speaker 4:Well, always having a plan, having a budget and schedule, just those big three there and driving the business according to that is a great way to go. But we were talking about this advisory board here just moments ago, and it's important that we hear the thoughts and ideas of the interest groups, the participants, the users. So that's kind of a neat thing that you could have an entity like that, that would have its ears out in the community and listen to people, but still be able to run the operation close to the budget that's allotted for it.
Speaker 5:I think the term I was looking for is an oversight board. It'd be a little more teeth than just an advisory board.
Speaker 2:So Dave, let me ask this. One of the things I noticed in an annual report for Bogus Basin is that they have a depreciation column in their expense side. One of the issues in Juneau generally is deferred maintenance and always trying to catch up and never seeming to get some of our projects done. Can you tell me, does Eagle Crest have a deferred maintenance and could a different structure help alleviate some of those issues?
Speaker 5:I think a different structure could certainly help with that. Well, there's a CIP budget out there with long term planning. There's really no mechanisms in place to set aside enough money to actually do these things. So we know that we're gonna have to replace the tarmac chair sometime in the near future. We know we have to rebuild the Black Bear chair very soon.
Speaker 5:We're gonna have to do some serious work to the Hooter chair. The lodge needs a lot of serious work. There just is not process right now and there certainly isn't the revenue to start setting aside to pay for these things. You're exactly right. It's the same thing that's plagued our water department, our sewer department, our school buildings.
Speaker 5:There's never money set aside to fix these things.
Speaker 4:Well, everybody does maintenance all the time. It's just what you're describing is maintenance by replacement in the business side. There comes a point when things wear Yeah, you just get a runner into the ground and when it's dead, it's dead.
Speaker 3:Buy a new car.
Speaker 4:That's one way to do it. That's not a way I recommend doing it, that's for sure. But deferred maintenance is something that in my career, especially never occurred. It was always preventive maintenance. And if you didn't do it, then it was maintenance by replacement because you had to buy a new one when it broke.
Speaker 2:I agree. So what you're suggesting is my 1,400,000.0 or my contribution or share of 1,400,000.0 is going to grow as we need to replace these articles for our skiing population.
Speaker 5:Unless we adopt a new model for Eagle Crest where it can generate enough revenue to be self supporting.
Speaker 2:And what you're really saying is that we need that summertime activity and we need to grow that so that we can disperse our crowds downtown as well as enjoy some of our beautiful community assets.
Speaker 5:I couldn't have said it any better.
Speaker 1:It all goes back to how we started this entire interview for this First Things First podcast. And I think the idea of looking at different government structures out there, looking at private entities isn't a bad way to go. But one thing I, you know, being a radio guy, public outreach, you guys were talking about stuff that I didn't even know was going on up there that I would love to take my family to go up there and do during the summertime. But I didn't even know about it till right now on the First Things First podcast. I think public outreach has a lot to do with that too and getting out there and letting people know, hey, there is another place to go in Juneau in the spring and summertime, not just out of the glacier or out the road, anything like that.
Speaker 1:All comes full circle, guys. That's great.
Speaker 3:Truly.
Speaker 1:And here I wanna I think the big thing to pull from this podcast is to show that Eagle Crest can be so much more than a winter venue. We could take advantage of it in the summer, and it can benefit all of Juno. Go back. Listen to this podcast. See what you can glean from it over at k I n y radio dot com.
Speaker 1:Just click the podcast section, then first things first. Or if you like anything you're hearing on here and you're like, hey. I wanna be informed. I wanna get involved. I wanna see what First Things First is all about.
Speaker 1:I like these guys. Don, how can someone get involved?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, Dano. The easiest way to do that is check us out on our website and that's ftfakfoundation.org. And we have a contact page on our website. Send us an email, we'll get you involved.
Speaker 1:Guys, wanna thank you so much Don Habiger coming in, executive director for First Things First. Frank Bergstrom, president. You got Mac Meijers, avid skier and director. Dave Hannah, avid skier as well, and, of course, formal Eagle Crest board member. So be informed.
Speaker 1:Get involved. This is your First Things First podcast. And, of course, don't forget to download the old episodes or this one over at kinyradio.com.