Vitalerium: Descent into the Void Part 3- Nicholas Keating Casbarro - Sci-fi Cyberpunk Dystopian Book

Hey Side Questers! We are back with part 3 of our discussion of Nicholas Keating Casbarro's Vitalerium: Descent into the Void.

ABOUT THE BOOK

Nearly six centuries have passed since humanity discovered vitalerium, which ushered in a golden age of space exploration and colonization. Planet Deorum’s society is centered around this illustrious, gravity-bending blue crystal. The year is 2701.

Following a near-fatal disaster, roughneck freelancer Roman Matthews becomes unwittingly trapped at the center of a harrowing conspiracy. Hunted by Deorum’s government, the Coalition for Prosperity, Roman must use his deadly skillset to survive against all odds.

Roman and his band of unlikely allies will discover that the Coalition’s indiscretions threaten the delicate balance of advanced civilization. As a sect of the Coalition prepares to implement its Machiavellian vision of utopia, the proverbial pendulum begins to swing toward chaos

Vitalerium World:
Website: https://vitaleriumseries.com/
Nick’s Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/InsideVitalerium 
YT: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkGe5mgjNnAl2VJ3E5TBmAg 
Insta: https://www.instagram.com/vitaleriumseries 
Twitter: https://x.com/vitalerium 
Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@vitaleriumseries 

-Publicist - Eve Bailey / Flo Agency: https://flo.agency/  
-Cosplayer 1 Shanice Foster: Luxsteez Cosplay - https://www.instagram.com/luxsteezcosplay/ 
-Cosplayer 2 Matthew Harden: MH Cosplay Design - https://www.instagram.com/mhcosplaydesign/ 
-Comic Illustrator - Francisco A. Hnilo: https://www.behance.net/fahilustracion 
-Comic Colorist - Chandran Ponnusamy: https://www.facebook.com/ponnusamychandran & https://www.deviantart.com/ponnusamychandran/gallery 
-Graphic Designer - Ahmed Geatar: https://www.behance.net/ahmedgad 


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If you’re a reader looking for something deeper or an indie author working on your book, The Side Quest Book Club is for you. We skip the usual book reviews and ratings. Each episode turns fun side quests into real lessons, so you’ll leave not just entertained, but with a better understanding of why storytelling matters.

[SLAVA]
I do want to get more of Zerus' backstory because we got that little bit of him as a child with his dad.

[MATT]
The higher the stakes, the more intricate his planning is. You got Roman, you got Shepard. Shepard has always been the commander, the soldier, the army guy.

Roman is more of like the Han Solo, so basically swap Han Solo for Commander Shepard and you've got a pretty good an explosion that comes out of his body.

[JONATHAN]
So a spirit bomb, if you will.

[SLAVA]
A spirit bomb?

[JONATHAN]
It's a Dragon Ball Z reference. Make fun of the invisibility part. Make fun of my creative brain, okay?

[SPENSER]
See, that's more...

[JONATHAN]
Are you about to say realistic? That's more realistic.

[SPENSER]
Humans flying on their own is realistic, yeah. I would say...

[JONATHAN]
Wrong.

[SLAVA]
It was just so much going on, so I took a break and during that break I was like fiending. Then when I got back into it, I finished it in like two days.

[JONATHAN]
Coming to you from an endless library where every book is read and every spoiler discussed. Join us as we dig into the lives of fictional people who cannot defend themselves. This is the SideQuest Book Club.

Welcome back, SideQuesters, to part three of Vidalarium. Happy to have you all back on Diorum. Today we're covering the end of the book, chapters 21 through 31, so spoilers ahead if you're new here.

Everything is on the table. And then next episode, can't wait for this, we're going to talk with the author himself, Nicholas Keating-Casparo. Be sure to follow him on Instagram.

We'll put something up here, Instagram or his other socials. And follow along as Vidalarium continues to unfold across the galaxy because he's got a 10-year plan where he wants to make video games. He's got comics coming out already.

He wants to make movies, shows, all that stuff. Be sure to give him your support. All right, guys, let's get into it.

How did the book come to a close for you? We had this rise up. It's a 31-chapter book.

There's a prologue. There's an epilogue. But how did the book go for you as an ending?

[MATT]
I'll tell you what. I am hungry. And that is an understatement for everything to come next.

Talk about a cliffhanger. Talk about an ending. It was a great closure to the book.

But it left so much more on the horizon. And I cannot wait to keep diving into this. It was beautifully executed.

So you're saying you want more? I want more. I'm not all done.

[SPENSER]
Yeah, it definitely ended, well, unexpectedly for me. I was kind of expecting maybe like a confrontation with Zerus. Like between Roman and Zerus.

I felt like the author was kind of setting that up. And so I think there still for sure will be, obviously, whether that's in book two or beyond. But I guess I was kind of waiting for it in book one.

So I was a little bit disappointed in that. But I felt like he ended in a good spot. And he definitely sets it up well for book two.

And maybe for this confrontation to take place at some point in book two. So yeah, it was good.

[MATT]
He's definitely not afraid to leave something to be desired. And there's a lot of arcs, a lot of characters that I just want to learn more and more about. And I'm excited.

[SLAVA]
Yeah, I can echo those sentiments. I thought the book ended well. Just like you said, Matt, it wrapped up the story and set up the next one really well.

It's just flawless execution in that. And I think Roman is set up for the next adventure. Which is kind of a repeat of what I just said.

But him as a character, not just the whole story. Which is true. But him as a character is now set up for his next grand adventure.

And the fact that Monique died, it gives him extra fervor to get the revenge. But also beyond the revenge, as we've seen, and we've talked about with the girl that he helped. With the people that he saved from the tunnels.

With his overall demeanor that we get in bits and pieces about the government. And about how the government oppresses the people. He now has a two-fold mission.

To rescue people. To go after the government that's attacking and oppressing them. And trafficking these hybrids.

And to get some sweet, sweet revenge for his love. So I think the setup for the next book is, again, wonderfully done. Really good.

I love it.

[MATT]
The fact that he gets the army behind him at the end is just... It's so... It's very unexpected for both sides.

For Roman to, one, lead an army. And for, two, for Modus to give him this massive inheritance of the entire Wibitani lineage. It's really unexpected.

And I think that's what makes it all the better. Because it's like, wow. I mean, it's cool that it was done.

And it makes sense to the story. And it's a very heavy exclamation point at the end of the book.

[JONATHAN]
It's interesting, too, because he went AWOL, right? He left the Wibitani and deserted, basically. And was allowed to leave.

And then the owner of the Wibitani is just like, hey, I can't take it any further. Which is why, in terms of Modus' response, which is why I believe that Monique is dead. Which is surprising.

Which I want to ask Nick about. Or mention to him, I guess, as reader to author, right? Because I was like, oh, they've just got a fake photo.

It's the future. You can kind of... Look at what we can do with AI today.

And this is 700 years in the future. Absolutely can tell that something's doctored or whatever. Yeah.

[SLAVA]
I didn't expect her to be really dead. Just like you, Jonathan. But, you know, we'll tell this to Nick.

I'm glad she's dead. Because that gives Romer... Romer.

That gives Roman... I know a guy named Romer.

[JONATHAN]
Romer. Romer. Send Roman right over.

[SLAVA]
Right. It gives Roman more fuel for revenge. Because, like, you find she's alive and they're together.

And they're going after the CP. Okay. It still works.

But now he has this rage that he needs to unleash.

[MATT]
That last little bit of a kick in the ass to get him like... Yeah. To propel him forward.

Whether he wanted to or not. This, that is his drive now. Love is a great motivator.

And it's now dead. So that's why he... And he said it several times while she was alive too.

She is the only person that he cares about. The only person that he has any connection to of value. And that's why it was so heavy for him.

[JONATHAN]
Yep. Have you guys ever trauma bonded with a love interest?

[MATT]
Yes.

[SPENSER]
Yes.

[JONATHAN]
Yep. Me too.

[SPENSER]
Yes. No. No, I don't think I have.

I had to feel included there for a second.

[JONATHAN]
Spencer's like, I don't have any trauma. It's not like I was raised in a cult or anything.

[MATT]
Side quest.

[SPENSER]
So hot take. I think Monique is still alive. I don't think she's actually dead.

[MATT]
I do too.

[SPENSER]
I think that Zerus captured her. And is somehow going to use her against Roman in a future scene. It's obvious.

Like the narrative works. Hold on, Jonathan. The narrative...

[Speaker 5]
Shut up. I didn't say anything.

[SPENSER]
I'm just waiting to say something. You were thinking it.

[MATT]
Let Spencer finish.

[SPENSER]
So the narrative works, right? Roman still thinks that she's dead. And so he has all the motivation that he needs.

But then there's going to come a point where he's going to go up against Zerus. And all of a sudden, Zerus is just going to be like, boom, Monique's alive. And you better do what I say.

Otherwise, Monique gets it for real. And now it might not be like... I'm not saying it's going to be that exact scene.

However, I do think that she's alive. And Zerus will somehow find a way to use her against Roman.

[SLAVA]
What if she is a CP guardsman now? She's fully automated. How?

If she's torn apart, her brain put into a cyborg bullet.

[MATT]
So that seems to be Zerus's MO, actually. Is using people as leverage against the people he wants to leave her. He's done it with Norval.

He's done it with... Who's the general? Darak, I think.

He's done it with a couple of the other politicians that you've talked to. It seems like every time he is a part of a big scenario or scene in the book, he is either blackmailing or using something to that effect against somebody else to get what he wants. Very manipulative.

And that's what I appreciate about him as a villain and a psycho. And I am on Spencer's side. I think she's still alive.

But here's the thing. Zerus hasn't spoken anything about the Wibbitani.

[JONATHAN]
He doesn't give a shit.

[MATT]
He doesn't give a...

[JONATHAN]
They're so small potatoes to him.

[MATT]
Not anymore.

[JONATHAN]
Why would he even bother capturing her beforehand? I actually see, if she's not dead, it's the Golden Phoenix. Because he wants to get involved.

[SPENSER]
Oh, you think the Golden Phoenix has Monique if she's alive?

[JONATHAN]
If she's alive, the Golden Phoenix took her. Because you can't tell me that the Golden Phoenix doesn't have inside people in the CP guards, working with Zerus. I would be shocked.

[MATT]
I think that's all parties, though.

[JONATHAN]
I would be shocked.

[MATT]
I think it's all parties. I think the Wibbitani has moles. I mean, that's...

It's espionage, right? What's the guy... Every faction has plants.

[JONATHAN]
The runner right hand that gets shit on the whole time? What's his name? I don't remember.

Because just before the attack happens, he's with the Wibbitani, right? Like, just before the attack happens, he gets a text and he gets all nervous. Anyway, no one's gonna look his name up for me?

All right, cool. I don't remember that part, actually.

[SPENSER]
No, I don't remember that either.

[JONATHAN]
Did you guys read the book?

[SPENSER]
No. What book?

[MATT]
I listened.

[Speaker 5]
Serenity now.

[MATT]
Serenity now. Insanity later. That...

I think she is alive, but Nick did a really good job of making it really, really cement that she is dead through the ending of the book. And even when Roman and Modus were wrassling, Modus went through play by play and said, I sent her up the ladder. It should have been me.

He basically said, I saw her get vaporized right in front of my face climbing up this ladder. She is dead. But, I mean, this many years in the future, I mean, the golden phoenix ritual where he just slits his throat, bleeds out, and then automatically is fine from spray.

Anything can happen. Anything can happen. There's a whole lot of unknowns left.

And I think it was too early for Monique to go. I didn't think she was going to die. I thought maybe she'd be captured or something like that.

But I think she still has a bigger part to play, especially since Nick also said that somebody cosplayed one of the more prominent characters. So, a little conspiracy.

[SLAVA]
Well, I hope she's dead. Okay, Slava. Way to be that guy.

I mean, I like Monique. I'm going to say this over and over again. I like Monique as a character.

I think she's a cool chick and a good character. But for the reasons I already stated, Roman needs to go all orphanage, psycho, revenge dude.

[MATT]
That seems to be something with Roman too. The higher the stakes, the more intricate his planning is. First instance, the orphanage.

It takes him a whole year to plan this all out. And then you've got the glow worms. It's a big thing.

He doesn't want certain crew people to come with him, like Nails and Strider and stuff like that. He wants to pick his own crew. And that interferes a little bit with how he tackles the mission.

And it's really cool to see Roman evolve as a character this way because he's very adaptable. Even though he is a lone wolf, he loves to do it all on his own. But that mission too, from a military perspective, the logistics, the preemptive stuff, the planning, all of that was really, really well done and described in detail.

The execution, however, seemed quite a bit more chaotic. And I think that's just due to the fact that they had a crack head. And a crack head, a bodyguard, and basically an android as his support on the mission.

[SLAVA]
Just lobbing grenades, taking bumps.

[MATT]
And action!

[JONATHAN]
I found it. I found exactly what I was talking about. Page 489, it says it's just after Modus pays Roman and dismisses the group.

And they did their chant, their little rah-rah. As the rugged group files out of the office, Drez's tab chimes, prompting him to read the message he's received. His eyes widen as they dart back and forth through the text.

And he turns away from Modus to read in privacy. Once finished, he immediately deletes it and hides his wrist behind his back nervously. I have to check on our new satellite club.

Just got word that one of the clippers, that the contractors, started building out the bar on the wrong side of the f***ing room. His cadence sticks out to Roman, who even in his state of exhaustion, notices something strange about his demeanor. Modus squints, etc, etc, etc.

So, Drez.

[MATT]
Yes, sir, Drez. I don't even know much about Drez. Was he in other parts of the book?

He was just the number two. Here and there.

[JONATHAN]
No, no, no.

[MATT]
Here and there.

[JONATHAN]
He felt insecure when he didn't know about the big job that Monique and Roman were given.

[MATT]
Was he the one that was throwing the s*** at him when we first got to meet Modus? That's Drez, okay.

[JONATHAN]
That's Drez, yeah. So, we got Drez, who's, you know, right hand of the Wibitani, or was. Just before the attack happens, he gets a text and he disappears.

[MATT]
Yeah, that's very fishy. I did not, didn't catch that. I must have been listening to it while I was driving.

[SLAVA]
Yeah, I remember that now that you bring it up, Jonathan. I forgot about it completely, but yep, that happens.

[JONATHAN]
Okay, well, let me go through the rest of these chapters for you guys. Why don't you just read the book for us?

[MATT]
Just read the book for us.

[JONATHAN]
Sorry, guys, welcome to the book club. Here we go.

[MATT]
This is our audible recording.

[JONATHAN]
And then Slava showed up and made a terrible dinner because he's actually an awful cook.

[Speaker 6]
Oh, well, screw this book.

[SPENSER]
I don't remember that in the book.

[JONATHAN]
That's not in here?

[SPENSER]
Yeah. Are you reading the unabridged version, maybe? The first draft.

[JONATHAN]
It's the unalived version, actually.

[MATT]
First. What's a hot take you guys have on this section? Or a conspiracy, or anything like that?

I feel like my hot take is already shared. Other than Monique. Okay, okay.

Ah, gotcha, Spence.

[JONATHAN]
Dead.

[SLAVA]
Ah, dang it. Something other than hot Monique takes.

[JONATHAN]
I'm gonna leave that one right there. I'm just saying.

[SLAVA]
That could be read two different ways. And you read it the wrong way.

[JONATHAN]
Well, I'm only reading it based on other data points where Roman wakes up with two ladies in his bed. So, you know, whatever. Well, it's his life.

[SLAVA]
I think Monique made him forget about the two ladies. Because he's sincerely in love with this girl, woman, by the end of the book. So all his philandering, philandering, before this was, again, to make him forget all his shit that he's went through.

It's typical behavior for a guy like Roman. But when he meets Monique, things change. He changes.

He reorients himself on her. And granted, he doesn't change completely. Because, you know, this takes to what takes a couple weeks, the time frame.

But anyway, that aside, like Monique reorients him.

[JONATHAN]
So I think they reorient each other. But in terms of hot takes, I want to see Norval kill someone. That's not really a hot take.

That's just what I want to see happen. What was the question?

[MATT]
Hot take conspiracy that doesn't involve Monique. Because I think that's the obvious conspiracy is like, is she really dead or is she not? I want something a little bit different off the cuff there.

Mine is all of the people that are the hybrid captors and stuff like that. Obviously, they've been doing it for a while. That is a much larger portion of the story than I think it's being made out to be.

I think that they're...

[JONATHAN]
Say that differently for me.

[MATT]
I think that they're being rounded up for reasons obviously we don't know, or we think we know, but I don't think it's the full story. I think so. What I'm trying to get to is, you guys remember the movie The Island?

Ewan McGregor, Scarlett Johansson? Yep. That's what I think they're trying to move to.

And then the aliens at the end of the... Not cloning.

[JONATHAN]
For body replacement?

[MATT]
Not so much that. More for, I guess, kind of more enhancements. Because they're hybrids specifically.

They're not just regular humans. They're hybrids. And then you have the vitilirium stuff that's coming into it too.

All of that is becoming much more valuable and more desired as a resource. And they're trying to find ways to enhance certain things. That's why he did the weapons testing in the first part of the book.

I'm kind of going down a rabbit hole here. There's so much more, I think, to the technology that is being underplayed. Why I bring it back to The Island is because there's a scene in The Island where when they're running away from all the guards and they run into where they're basically...

They have all of the clones and they're just sitting there programming them with their memories. And it's tubes everywhere. Their bodies are just laying there limp and they bump them off.

And if they're off, they just start flailing around and they're sickly. And there's got to be more to it because they saved a couple of them. But we don't really find out what happened to the couple of them.

We don't get to interrogate or question or meet any of these things. It's just Windy. And Windy, all she got to do was say, pretty much, thank you.

Thanks, Roman. And then fuck for the rest of this book. I was like, wow, I want to know more.

This is a huge turning point. One, Nails dies, which that was pretty cool. I loved Nails as a character.

But there was a nuclear bomb in his backpack. Well, that and a bunch of coke, snorting it off of his gun mid-combat, throwing grenades. Oh, it was great.

Fantastic.

[SLAVA]
And he dies like the dad in Independence Day. Just like going balls to the wall all out. Like, f*** you, aliens.

[SPENSER]
Yeah, yeah.

[MATT]
I die on my terms.

[SPENSER]
Yeah. Well, Matt, to your point, I think that Zerus is trying to... Well, again, what it appears is that Zerus is trying to create an army.

[MATT]
Yes.

[SPENSER]
And so he needs... Because he doesn't have the resources that the IGB does, he needs to change the playing field somehow. And so that is, for him, that's creating an army of super soldiers, basically, of where he can take on the IGB.

And so when he finds out, too, about Roman, and that's why he sends the other guy, I forget his name, but to try to capture Roman, because they found out about his abilities.

[MATT]
Riku, yeah.

[SPENSER]
Yeah, yeah. And so I think that's why, like you said, there's more going on with the hybrid people and why they're being captured and all of that.

[JONATHAN]
So... And no one cares if they go missing, because they're just the director of society.

[MATT]
Well, they're kind of... A lot of the people are like... What was it?

The news reporter. I like those little sections, too. Those little snippets, vignettes of just like...

Yeah, interludes, intermissions of the reporting. It's just like, okay, so this is what a citizen sees. Kind of calling back to real life now, too, is just like, all right, well, in other news, Trump said blah.

It's like, okay, well, I'm tired of seeing all this news. It kind of comes across as like, more hybrids are missing. Everybody's like, what else is new?

Cool, yeah. Who cares? So it's the way that Nick writes these parts.

It tickles me in a different way, because it's like, I want to know more, but then he segues right into the next start of the next arc or plot point or whatever. And I'm just like, okay, well, I just did exactly what every other civilian in this world does and forgets all about that until I decide to think deeper about it. And now I just want to know all of the things.

So that's my conspiracy. That's my conspiracy. There's a lot more between the capture of the hybrids and all of this, that big, just that whole chapter just baffles me.

I want to know more.

[JONATHAN]
Before they go into their hot takes, Matt, I want to tap into your Star Wars, your Star War brain.

[MATT]
What's a Star War?

[JONATHAN]
What's a Star War? How does this compare with how sci-fi has been shown, fed to us, given to us historically, where it's like, we have Star Wars is like the big, probably like the biggest sci-fi RP, IP. And now we have something that's coming out.

Yeah, that's fair. Star Trek too. I'm thinking about like action oriented, because I wouldn't call Star Trek.

I didn't say this. I was thinking of it. Star Trek is more like intellectual, exploring.

[MATT]
It's more sci-fi, less space opera.

[JONATHAN]
Magellan. Gotcha. Explore the universe is how I see Star Trek.

But for Star Wars, and I don't know how to really form this question well. How do you see it comparing? How does it relate?

Pros and cons compared to like the OG.

[MATT]
So Star Wars is much more on the sci-fi space opera side of it. Whereas Videlirium is much more gothic, cyber, metal, punk, whatever. So it's more akin to life that we kind of know, because it's still Earth and human.

Star Wars, there's no Earth.

[Speaker 6]
That's fair.

[MATT]
It's a different galaxy. It's a galaxy far, far away. There's millions of different races and how the political climate is interacting with a galactic empire or senate and stuff like that.

So there are, it's kind of hard to compare the two, quite honestly. Because I mean, I love Star Wars. It's one of my favorite things of all time.

But it doesn't compare to Videlirium as Videlirium doesn't compare to Star Wars. Because they're same, same, but different. In the fact that Star Wars takes place in a universe far, far away.

Or a galaxy far, far away. Videlirium takes place in places that we know and have learned about in our own history. And it's just years in the future.

So it's more believable and less of a fiction than it is Star Wars is pure fiction. Like they have humans, yes. But they're not like, they know they're not alone in the galaxy.

In Videlirium, humans, I don't know if humans know they're alone. Maybe they've met a couple species. I mean, I'm sure they have in their space faring.

[JONATHAN]
Yeah. They're like, we know the Glef were here. So we can actually prove that there is something else or was something.

[MATT]
And technically, I mean, the fauna of the different plants, like a Dioram, that's an alien. What's the big creature thing?

[JONATHAN]
Yeah, that Roman fights? Whatever that's called.

[MATT]
Technically, that would be an alien. It's a species. It's not a humanoid, I guess.

[JONATHAN]
I mean, even the hybrid becomes an alien species, basically. So what would you tell a Star War fan?

[MATT]
A Star War fan? What would I tell them about...

[JONATHAN]
A Starwarian, if you will.

[MATT]
What would I tell them about this book to get them to read this book?

[JONATHAN]
Yeah, to enjoy something a little bit outside their bread and butter.

[MATT]
Change your expectation. That's what I would do. I went into this without an expectation.

And I think that was the best thing for me. Because if I was expecting it to be a Star Wars, a space opera, or something like that, or something to the effect on the level of like Mass Effect or anything like that. It's more like Mass Effect than it is Star Wars.

I think that's a better description. Go on, say more. Mass Effect, again, it's in the universe that we live in.

There's Earth. There's a couple other things. Andromeda, galaxies, stuff like that.

But for Star Wars people, this is something that... As far as the book is concerned, because Star Wars was a movie first. So it was a lot more adaptable or not adaptable.

Consumed by a lot more people because it's shorter. The book is significantly longer. I think it was 35 hours on Audible.

But the book, it's fantastic. It holds a lot of space that Star Wars did for me of the suspense. But it wasn't like eerie suspense.

It was edge of your seat action. Characters were fantastic. And development, plot, scene, everything.

It's just, I mean, amazing. And where I brought in Mass Effect is you got the hero. The titular hero.

You got Roman. You got Shepard. Shepard has always been the commander, the soldier, the army guy.

Roman is more of like the Han Solo. So basically swap Han Solo for Commander Shepard. And you've got a pretty good plot.

Or at least a pretty good protagonist, at least right there.

[SLAVA]
Yeah, I'll buy that for a dollar.

[SPENSER]
This, Videlirium almost feels more like comic book-y versus Star Wars. Just the way, I feel like the way it's written just seems, yeah, like Marvel almost in a sense, where you have characters gaining powers and then becoming a superhero. That feels more, so Videlirium feels like that.

More Marvel maybe versus Star Wars in that in that regards.

[MATT]
I'll clap back on that. I think it's less like Marvel because it's one person. So it's not, it's, it's, I guess it could be like an origin.

But you do find in the epilogue, I guess, I'll walk that back, that it could be more common than we're led to believe, at least in the first book. So this, it feels like it's the origin story potentially for a hero who has, is a little bit more than meets the eye, and then potentially find more allies who also have abilities. Now that I'm talking through it, yeah, I can see that.

It's, there's a lot to be desired, 100%, and not in a bad way at all.

[SPENSER]
Yeah, agreed. Like he definitely, you know, Nick, the author, he definitely left a bunch open for obvious reasons, right? Just he's got a lot more that he's planned to write.

So yeah, definitely a great, great intro book, you know, into this new universe. Yeah, so like you said, there's a reason that it's a lot left open, but yeah, a lot to be desired for good reasons.

[MATT]
I got, I think, the same level of enjoyment out of this one book, knowing that there's more to come, that I did getting out of Warbreaker. Warbreaker was kind of like a finality. Like, I don't really feel like I have to read any more of that universe.

I know you really want me to, but I feel like after reading Warbreaker, that was a good read. I don't need to read any more. Fantastic book, fantastic characters, fantastic setting.

I feel the same way about Videlirium, but there's more to it, and I can't wait to read more. I want that out of the books that I read. Warbreaker was great.

It was a one-time book. Videlirium, it's built this universe, it's built these characters, and I really, really, really, really, really want to see more.

[JONATHAN]
Fair enough. We disagree on the Warbreaker part, but I'll let it slide.

[SPENSER]
You're entitled to your opinion, even though it's wrong.

[JONATHAN]
This is America. You're allowed to be wrong.

[MATT]
Sanderson's just, it's a big one. That's daunting. It's true.

[SPENSER]
But that's what makes it worth it in the end.

[MATT]
I do listen to his preachings and stuff. Preachings. Yeah?

I've never heard those.

[SPENSER]
I've never heard Sanderson preach, so yeah, go on.

[MATT]
Please convert us, Matt.

[SPENSER]
Matt is a Mormon now.

[MATT]
His... Words of Sanderson? Classes that he teach about creativity and stuff like that.

The writing classes.

[SLAVA]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The writing classes.

[MATT]
Preachings. His sermons.

[SLAVA]
Lectures. Lectures.

[MATT]
There you go, lectures. That's the word I was looking for. Thank you, Slava.

And it helps me kind of write my characters for D&D and stuff like that in different scenarios. So I appreciate the work that he does. It's just a lot, and it's daunting.

But back to Vidalurium. Nick has done a really good job of keeping me interested in a very short amount of time. It took me the first 10 chapters to not want to stop reading.

No, it took me the first three chapters to not want to stop reading.

[Speaker 7]
Yeah, hell yeah.

[MATT]
There's been several times in this book where I sat either in my truck or stopped what I was doing and just leaned in and just listened or focused or read a couple times over what was on the page. And I wanted to squeeze the scenario or whatever I was doing out of every little drop out of the whatever I was consuming right there. And I haven't had that in a book that I've actually read since, I think, middle school with Eragon.

I don't remember a time reading a book and I couldn't wait to move on to the next page, but I didn't want to leave the page because of fear of I was missing something.

[JONATHAN]
Oh, interesting.

[MATT]
And I did. I missed stuff. I mean, we just found out.

I missed the Dresd. They're Dresd, Dresd, Dresd. Whatever his name is.

Dresd. Dresd is from D&D. Dresd.

I missed that part. And I'm sad. I might have to just go read the book again.

[SLAVA]
There you go.

[MATT]
Pretty normal.

[SLAVA]
I don't know if I have any hot takes outside of Monique. I'm sitting here rattling my brain trying to think of what theory do I have. I think your theory is pretty interesting, Matt, because we don't know what the hell is going on outside of they're harvesting them for something, right?

And it's the vidalurium fusion that they have to a lesser extent than Roman has. And Roman can control it in ways that the hybrids can't based on what we know so far. I do want to get more of Zerus's backstory because we got that little bit of him as a child with his dad.

The inciting incident, if you will, for him becoming a psychopath. Murder. And child murder.

Murder by children. And I wanted to get more and more of his backstory. It doesn't have to be a whole chapter dedicated.

It could be two or three more memories. Maybe him with one of his lovers and how that went awry. Maybe something else with his dad.

Maybe how he committed other murders nobody has found out. Maybe some background as to what drives him to do the things he's doing. What has created this drive in him as a young leader of this planet, right?

That I would like more of. And I think if I'm going to make a hot take just for shits and giggles here on the fly, we find out that he is... How do I say this without sounding like I'm just rambling?

Because I kind of am. We find out that there are real things, and by that I mean things that we could maybe sympathize with that happened to him. Not sympathize with where he's taken his life.

Not sympathize with how he reacted to those things. But the things themselves, the events in his life that led him to where he is are not just going to be, oh, he's a bad guy because he's a bad guy and this is what bad guys do.

[MATT]
Bad guy do bad guy shit, yeah.

[SLAVA]
Yeah, like, yeah. So not really a hot take. Medium boil take, but...

[MATT]
Lukewarm. Medium boil take. It leaves a desired taste in my mouth, too, because I'm going to ask Jonathan before I keep going.

Who is the main villain in the Star Wars trilogy?

[JONATHAN]
The original?

[MATT]
Yeah.

[JONATHAN]
Well, in the original, it's Darth Vader.

[MATT]
Don't overthink it. Just get it. Okay, there you go.

That's what I'm looking for. It's Darth Vader. Now, so think of that, that's the first little taste we have right now of Zerus.

It's Darth Vader. Zerus is Darth Vader. He is the bad guy doing bad guy stuff, but we know a little bit about him.

We know a little bit about his past, but we don't know why Darth Vader is the way he is. You go to the prequel trilogy, it's all about Darth Vader before it was Darth Vader. It's Anakin.

It's about Anakin. You get to see Anakin's rise and fall to becoming Darth Vader. That, I don't know if it'll be just like that.

I don't think the story is going to be about Zerus at all. I think it's going to be, we're going to learn a lot more about him, but I think we're going to get a little bit more, empathy and sympathy is not the right word, a little bit more insight into his journey and what got him to where the man he is now. Because he's older than Roman by a handful of years.

I think Nick said he's like 30 something, 33. So there's a lot more in his past, and I think Slava, you know that too. We need to learn a little bit more of why the bad guy is doing the bad guy shit.

Because a bad guy doing bad guy things, it's very video gamey, but the way that the book has kind of gone so far, there's a lot more to Zerus than what we're looking at right now.

[JONATHAN]
Well, it's not just Zerus, the whole book felt like there's a sprinkling here. We don't talk about it again. There's a sprinkling here, and I think that this gets into Nick's bigger plan of having a 10 year vision, is you can't have a video game and comics and whatever without a lot more going on, not just on world, but in the universe.

And so I kind of want to see the IGB come and crush Zerus for my own pleasure, even though the IGB is worse. But, to quote Sun Tzu, the enemy of my enemy is my friend, so it would be wild if Zerus and Haman have to team up.

[MATT]
Stranger Things have happened. That would be really cool. That would be really cool.

But I... I was thinking the same thing. Slava doesn't pay for subscriptions.

Stranger Things is not good. Hot take. Anyways, I forgot where I was going.

Yeah, a lot to be desired. A lot of little sprinklings. And there's more to every character, I think, and every plot line.

[SLAVA]
Except Monique, because she's dead.

[Speaker 5]
That's what you think!

[JONATHAN]
Are we going to get a callback to the girl he saved in a future book?

[SPENSER]
Ooh, that would be cool. I was wondering that too, because I think it just seems like such an odd thing to kind of throw in there for no reason. Sure, you can say, oh, it's a glimpse into Roman's more empathetic side.

[JONATHAN]
Empathy is a generous term for this guy.

[SPENSER]
Well, yeah. But what I'm saying is, it just seems like such a weird thing to throw in there if you're not going to use it for anything else.

[MATT]
I think that was the turning point. Because I'm glad he didn't make it a spectacle, where Roman's just a huge asshole for the It's not like he just decides to cast off his past self and become the hero of Dioram. It's like, no, I found love.

I was an asshole. I found a girl. She treated me great.

I treated her great. It was amazing. Now she's dead.

Or no, that was before. This was before. But he had some reason.

And it wasn't just because he has to move the plot along. He has some reason to do good now. And he wants to.

And I'm glad it wasn't some big spectacle. I'm glad it was just something small. Granted, it was saving a girl.

But it wasn't expounded upon. Because I think that's the turning point towards... And I wouldn't really call it a redemption arc.

But it would be his rise to heroism, I think.

[SPENSER]
So I have maybe more on the conspiracy side of things. I don't know. This isn't really a hot take.

But based on the epilogue, we see these aliens who appear to be monitoring humanity as a whole. Based on their journey, the human's journey with Vidalarium. So I wonder if there's some larger alien conflict going on.

And then the aliens that we see monitoring the humans need another ally. In their fight versus another alien threat. So this would be big, large picture.

Book 10 or whatever. Book 7. Whatever.

How many ever books you wanted. Final conflict sort of thing. So I think that's my kind of conspiracy.

These other aliens need the humans. But the humans haven't really proved themselves yet. And so they're going to somehow try to move humanity along in some way.

I don't know what that would be. But that's my conspiracy, I think.

[MATT]
I have one more conspiracy. Or not conspiracy. I guess thought-provoking aspect.

Who do you guys think is the Smoky Jarek?

[JONATHAN]
Well, it's not Jarek. That much I can figure out.

[SPENSER]
Who is taking shape? I was trying to rack my brain about that. And I really didn't know.

I couldn't place who it would be until we saw the aliens.

[MATT]
Until the epilogue. I was in the same boat.

[SPENSER]
Ubuntis or something like that. Where she comes out of this dive or whatever they called it. And then it's like, okay.

[MATT]
Scene dive or something like that.

[SPENSER]
Yeah, it's like, okay. That maybe could be something there.

[SLAVA]
I like the connection between the commentary in the beginning and the epilogue. So the ones who are watching the humans are the ones who are commenting in the beginning. Saying, every time they get ahead, they do it well for about five minutes.

And they start f***ing killing each other and do something stupid.

[JONATHAN]
Checks out.

[SLAVA]
Very omniscient.

[JONATHAN]
Yeah. Very human of us. I don't know if I have...

Well, I don't even know if we have enough information to know who Jarek is. And whether it's not just a fever dream of trauma. Which is entirely possible.

Or not.

[MATT]
Well, it only started happening after the vitilirium exposure. So it's tied to vitilirium in some way. And it gives me...

So you guys remember the Bane trilogy? Nope.

[SPENSER]
It happened beforehand. Yeah, I was fairly certain it was happening before the vitilirium exposure.

[SLAVA]
When he wakes up in his dream and he's naked on the beach. And Jarek is busting his balls. And then the vitilirium event happens.

And then Jarek continues Jarek.

[MATT]
Was it when he was nearby in the tent then? So he was still by the vitilirium meteor?

[SLAVA]
No, it was before he went to get it.

[MATT]
Okay.

[SLAVA]
He did a job. And he was sleeping in his tent. And he has a dream of being naked on the beach.

And Jarek coming to him. He wakes up, grabs his tent. And then he gets the job to get the vitilirium.

[MATT]
Okay, I'm a lot of sequence then. Yeah. Interesting.

[JONATHAN]
That's why the implication of like, it could just be trauma. It could be a fever dream. Like there are, I think, two or three instances where it happens before.

And then the incident of it happening during the vitilirium job. Where he throws a grenade and then it explodes into him. Like that happens as well.

So like...

[SLAVA]
Yeah. I thought of some sort of fever dream.

[JONATHAN]
Yeah.

[SLAVA]
Before the end of the book. And even up until... Up until the end of the book.

I thought it was just him dealing with trauma. Having a fever dream.

[JONATHAN]
Now, it could have been exacerbated because of vitilirium, right? Now, it could be more... It does seem more common and pronounced now that the vitilirium exposures happen.

Stronger connection to the fever dreams or the nightmares. Yeah. But that could just be because he's got, you know, a radiation crystal lodged in his body.

So, you know.

[MATT]
I wonder then, this climbs my conspiracy then. If that was the case, then I wonder if the aliens, Obuntus and them. Or if Roman himself is destined or chosen at some point to be subject to that kind of stuff.

Because if it happened before the vitilirium then. I wonder if from the perspective of Obuntus, she chose Roman and decided to condition or dive into his psyche for whatever reason. To turn him into or set him on a path that maybe he wasn't supposed to do.

And then overarching theory is he is the... He is chosen by the aliens to do a certain number of things. Bring about some path.

I don't know. This is where my conspiracy kind of...

[JONATHAN]
Seems like a bit of a stretch. Your implication is that Obuntus has godlike powers to influence and shape human destiny. And she chose Roman to do that.

If you extrapolate that out, why doesn't she do that to someone who has more power? Like Zerus or someone else to help build this army that you kind of mentioned earlier. Or the IGB.

[MATT]
Because maybe other aliens are doing the exact same thing to other people. And that's where Zerus and IGB come in.

[JONATHAN]
I mean sure you've added additional theory but...

[SPENSER]
She might be looking for a certain type of personal characteristic. Oh Zerus is too power hungry so we're not going to go with him.

[JONATHAN]
I'm sure he has a lot of influence but... Sure.

[MATT]
Somebody with nothing to lose.

[JONATHAN]
Right. My point kind of is though, if you have that level of godlike power. Why don't we see more clues in the book?

He wrote it from an omniscient standpoint.

[SPENSER]
Yeah but you don't necessarily want to give all of that away.

[JONATHAN]
I'm not saying give it away but there should be inclinations. There should be inklings. There should be clues.

[SPENSER]
Well maybe the episodes with Jarek are... Maybe those are the hints or whatever.

[MATT]
That's... It's giving me Greek gods. Okay.

So like you have Mount Olympus. You have the Greek gods. They are not omnipotent but they can influence humanity in certain ways.

Through choosing certain people or changing destiny or something like that. Or even just straight up murdering a certain amount of people. Because they feel like they didn't create humanity.

But they have influence... Or no they created humanity and they have influence over them. But they still need humanity.

They live off their prayers. They feed on their prayers and their worship. Maybe the aliens don't need that.

But maybe they need the humans for a different reason that we don't know yet.

[JONATHAN]
I don't believe that your quoting of Greek mythology is canon. I think that's something that people came up with for modern retellings. Maybe.

The need for humans to be praying to them to keep them around. That's like a show that was created about a decade ago.

[MATT]
Maybe. Unless someone can cite sources. I'm not a Greek philosopher.

So I don't... Or not philosopher. Historian.

[JONATHAN]
You're also not a Greek philosopher.

[MATT]
I'll tell you that much.

[JONATHAN]
Standing in the town square. I know that I don't know anything. Socrates we love you.

[MATT]
A wise man knows how little he knows.

[JONATHAN]
Says a non-wise man.

[MATT]
Exactly. Anyway. Now that I've debunked that theory.

I'm just farting out conspiracies now. You didn't debunk it. Watch me be right.

It doesn't give those vibes though.

[JONATHAN]
It absolutely does not. Because that would mean...

[MATT]
There's more to it. There's more to it and I don't know what it is. That's why I'm just theorycrafting here.

[JONATHAN]
That I will concede. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's absolutely going to be more.

I mean, there's six more books, right? And like comics and all this jazz. But it doesn't give the vibes of like...

Nicholas as an author from the conversation we had before. And then the one we're going to have soon. He...

From the way that he's written Roman. Roman chooses his actions. Like it's the development of a man refinding purpose.

It's the development of him. Like I'm going to choose to do this thing. I don't have to take your job.

Actually, I will take it. There's no sort of... The only instance that I might say is in your favor.

Is when he's talking to the monk guy at the end. Where he talks about the pendulum. But that isn't even like a force.

It's just like the universe seeking equilibrium. To quote the book. It's not a force that is wielded.

[MATT]
Well, that's... So again, that goes... Going back to Star Wars.

The force is all about balance. The force needs to be in balance. If it swings too far to one.

It created Anakin. The chosen one. To swing it back the other way.

[SLAVA]
Are you enjoying today's side quest? Make sure you're subscribed. So you never miss an episode.

We are available on YouTube and all major platforms. So you can listen to us anywhere. Now, back to the show.

[MATT]
I'm not a god. I don't know. I'm just...

I'm just a guy. Asking questions. Making statements.

[Speaker 6]
Asking all the questions. Making statements.

[MATT]
Asking all them questions. Assuming. Asking all them questions.

Asking all them questions.

[JONATHAN]
Why you asking all them questions? If you know, you know.

[MATT]
Had to be there.

[JONATHAN]
Well, Spencer's lava. Now you guys can fight.

[MATT]
Yeah. Our round is over. I won.

[JONATHAN]
Matt lost. Next up.

[MATT]
Well, what are we gonna fight about? Oh, gosh.

[SPENSER]
I don't know. Land this plane or something. Monique.

Monique's alive. And I don't care what you say about it. All right?

Bitch is dead.

[Speaker 5]
These guys are riveting, Matt.

[MATT]
I think they're on my podcast now. This is exciting. When it's about Star Wars, it's Darth Slava and Matt's podcast.

When it's about Vidalurium, it's Jonathan and Matt.

[SPENSER]
And when it's Hail Mary, then it's my podcast. There you go. There you go.

[JONATHAN]
The neighborhood side quest podcast.

[SPENSER]
Something.

[JONATHAN]
Never mind. It wasn't funny. Non-funny thing I've said all day.

[MATT]
Cut. Not the first. That's definitely not the first and it won't be the last.

[JONATHAN]
It's absolutely the last. I got a lot of good material up here.

[MATT]
Tell us a joke, Jonathan. Tell us a joke. Be a funny.

Do a funny. Do a funny.

[SLAVA]
Give us humor.

[MATT]
I did hear one of the greatest Chuck Norris jokes yesterday. I hope it makes people laugh, but it might offend some. Chuck Norris once told a woman to calm down.

And she did. I learned that. This is so funny.

What are we going to do when Chuck's dead? He doesn't die. He goes to hell and then kicks it back up.

Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups. He does earth downs.

[SLAVA]
Yes. There's a video of Chuck Norris having Chuck Norris jokes read to him. I think he chuckles at like two of them.

I don't understand what this means.

[MATT]
He's an old man now, man. He's an old guy.

[SLAVA]
Boomer.

[JONATHAN]
What kind of side quest story would you like to see in Videlirium?

[MATT]
I already know what Jonathan's going to say.

[JONATHAN]
Stories from the grind. You don't know what I'm going to say.

[MATT]
Stories from the grind. I would like to see a sidekick. Something a little bit more permanent.

[JONATHAN]
A Robin to the Batman?

[MATT]
Kind of. And not so much as a lover either, but somebody who adds to Roman and doesn't take away whenever he's in the room. Like a Han Solo to Luke.

[SLAVA]
Maybe Braxton will be that.

[MATT]
That's what I'm thinking. And I'd like to learn a little bit more about Braxton. Braxton seemed a little bit shoehorned to me.

I think that's one of my biggest qualms, I think. What do you mean shoehorned? What do you mean?

So he comes in late into the book. Gets framed. It's more for the CP to just enforce more dystopian power.

It seemed very Orwellian. Surprise! You're now framed because you didn't do something that made my mission go the way I wanted it to.

Then he goes to jail. And it's like, oh, okay. So that is a thing that happened.

And then Roman gets captured. Goes through this thing. And then Braxton is like, hey, hey, man.

I can help you out here. It seemed a little shoehorned. And I think that's just lack of character for Braxton.

So that's the character that I thought is going to be the sidekick. Because even when everybody was bowing down to Roman at the end, even Braxton, and Nicholas said it in narration, is just like, even though Braxton has not known him for very long, he too knelt like everybody else was doing. So I don't know.

I'd like to see something a little bit more than just Roman doing Roman things. It'd be fun to see another character. Because we got a little taste of that with the mission with Dieter, Nails, and Strider.

So having him interact during missions with people other than Spooky Jarek, I think would be cool.

[SLAVA]
Yeah. But I think Braxton would be a nice sidekick foil kind of to Roman. If it was Nails all the way through, it would be hilarious.

Because Roman would just be constantly annoyed as hell. But Braxton is kind of like the jock, right?

[MATT]
Nails would have stole the show for sure.

[SLAVA]
And Braxton's a CP, a former CP guard. So that creates tension where Roman has to continue to trust this guy. And realize not all CP guards are like that douchebag that murdered his parents.

[JONATHAN]
Spence, what's your side quest that you'd like to see happen in Vidalarium?

[SPENSER]
I think for me it would be Emmanuel. He kind of comes in there right at the end. We didn't know about him.

At least I don't think we knew about him at all previously in the book. And then he just sort of appears as this other mentor slash father figure to Roman. And I think he's from Earth too.

So it'd be kind of interesting to see more of his backstory. And then how he came to Diorum. And then how he ended up being...

[Speaker 6]
Where he met Roman.

[SPENSER]
Yeah, where he met Roman and how their relationship developed. I think that would be an interesting kind of backstory, maybe side quest.

[JONATHAN]
He's a cool character I'm excited to learn more about. A little bit earlier in the book. But it's just like...

Brief historical. Very, very brief.

[SPENSER]
I must have missed that part then.

[JONATHAN]
You know me, I'm always looking for those... I'm always looking for the more...

[SLAVA]
The grind stories.

[JONATHAN]
That's me.

[SLAVA]
Riveting.

[MATT]
Wow. Riveting.

[JONATHAN]
Wait for Slava to say something interesting.

[MATT]
You know, that is exciting. I think Emmanuel would be a cool character to expand upon. And I don't know how much they can expand on him moving forward.

But they can definitely go back into his past and define him a little bit more. Spend more time with him.

[Speaker 5]
Yeah, that's true.

[MATT]
He seems like he's very fleshed out. But we don't know much about him. And I don't think he has much more to add to the story.

He does, he's got more to add. And I'll tell you why. He does, but he's formed Roman.

And I want to learn more about the forming-ish.

[JONATHAN]
That's a stretch to say that he formed him. But he has more to offer, at minimum, as a captor. So like, Roman's like, hey, you should flee, right?

He's like, you need to get out of here. He's like, you live your pendulum, I'll live mine. I'm going to stay.

These people need me, right? So if Zerus or another bigger power determines that this guy is related to Roman and Roman cares about him, he'll absolutely be captured, tortured, and used as a leverage point for Roman. That's an easy win for them.

If they find out about him. How will they find out about him? Right, right.

How would they find out about him? Someone has to be trailing Roman or something, right? Because he doesn't feel like he's going club to club using powers to show off, right?

[MATT]
Yeah.

[JONATHAN]
He's a monk.

[MATT]
Maybe he's got another one of those subdermal tracker things. Maybe that's how they found him. Could be.

That he had to carve out a Monique. Did he?

[SLAVA]
Did he get a call? Or the way he set up the meeting with the Batani? Wasn't that how Roman thought he was going to get traced?

Because they used a calling device?

[JONATHAN]
Yeah.

[SLAVA]
So that's how, probably.

[JONATHAN]
Oh, right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. The call.

And he's like, you didn't use the fabric. He's like, no. He's like, well, I need to get out of here.

You let me live my life. I've made my decisions. You live yours.

Yeah. I'll take the consequences as they fold out. As they unfold.

Yeah. Could be.

[SLAVA]
Maybe a side quest would be saving Emmanuel.

[JONATHAN]
Yeah. And Nick, in our author chat we had with him like a month ago, he said that he's kind of writing it like a video game, like a GTA, like an open sandbox where you can go and do side quests. So I think, you know, to you guys' joke earlier, I think it would be really cool if there was like a series of short stories that are in the grind that are just like vignettes or sub characters or people that we've met, you know, like Idris, right?

The runner left hand. What would that look like? How did that person get there after Roman left?

You know, just a story or two. Just a thing here and there. So.

[SLAVA]
Well, before we continue, let's say goodbye to Matt because his schedule demands that he leave us. And then we'll continue bantering about whatever.

[MATT]
Who else am I going to fight with? Well, we'll fight plenty more. There's plenty more Videlir even to fight about.

There better be. All right, gentlemen. Thank you much for having me on.

We'll see you guys next time.

[SPENSER]
I just want to mention the Glowworm raid, I guess that Roman and Valeria's men that he's with, they go to rescue, is it Valeria's sister?

[SLAVA]
Cousin. Cousin.

[SPENSER]
Cousin. Windy. That was probably one of my favorite sequences in the book.

It was just kind of neat to see Roman having to work with somebody else for a change. He's definitely, you know, I think it was mentioned before, he's this lone wolf, you know, character, likes to do everything by himself. So I liked to see, you know, that he had to work with other people.

And Nails was a good comic relief, I think. In that whole sequence kind of reminded me a little bit of this sort of Guardians of the Galaxy type vibe, just, you know, that the crew has. I mean, obviously they don't know each other that well, but I feel like the way they all sort of interacted kind of gave me those vibes just a little bit.

So that was a good sequence. And yeah, I was, you know, a little disappointed that Nails died, but I feel like he died in a pretty epic way. You know, he just tosses a grenade.

But no, so I just wanted to kind of point that out. I think that was a fun scene and I'm glad that Nick put that in there.

[SLAVA]
Yeah, Nails was fun. And his death was, like I think was mentioned earlier, on his own terms. And he went out just taking everybody out.

[SPENSER]
So I liked it. How did you take that scene? What did you feel about it?

[JONATHAN]
I find it curious that the author kills two characters in a single book. I like Nails. He was fun.

I wish we saw a little more crazy before he reveals the nuclear bomb he's basically carrying. And also, how did he afford that? Because vitillarium is not cheap.

Or did he steal it, right? There's just a lot of questions I have. What's his history?

Is he a Locke Lamora type? Doesn't really strike me as the ability to be a thief based on his personality.

[SPENSER]
You know, they work for Valeria and she's, you know, a mega pop star. So she's got a lot of money. So to me, it would stand to reason that he somehow gets his money from her.

You know, not sure what his salary would be, you know, based on... He makes extra money on the side. Selling.

Yeah, yeah. Selling nose candy.

[JONATHAN]
I'm gonna say this back to you in modern terms. Do you think that Taylor Swift could buy a nuclear bomb?

[SPENSER]
Yeah. She's a billionaire. Yes.

So, yeah? Yes.

[JONATHAN]
I don't. I actually don't think that she could get a nuclear bomb.

[SLAVA]
You mean today's modern non-dystopian western world on earth? Yes, probably not. Right, right.

[SPENSER]
Like, it's not like she's just gonna go to Lockheed Martin and be like, hey, you know, build me a bomb.

[JONATHAN]
Can you guys... You got any on the shelf? I need one.

[SPENSER]
Travis and I are breaking up. Need one of these.

[JONATHAN]
Right, Travis? That's the guy she's dating?

[SLAVA]
Yeah. Yeah, Travis Kelsey. Oh, uh, Swift?

Yeah, she's Travis Kelsey, a football player. Yep.

[JONATHAN]
Something about the football. Yes. So there's like, there's things...

It's just, it's surprising. Could you get plutonium? Maybe from the Russians?

Right? But this is it, right? Like, this is how my mind works.

If you've been here for a while, welcome back. You know, I ask questions like this. I go, okay, this guy has this very cool...

It like works for the story. It's fun. But in terms of like the scene, I'm like, man, that's really expensive.

People are literally going to come and try and kill Roman because he has this thing lodged in his whatever, his face and his body. Like, that ain't cheap, man. And like, how does he afford that?

Or, you know, did he steal it? If he stole it, like, why is he not dead? Because other people can't get their hands on it.

So these are just the questions that I ask. Sorry, Nick. Wherever you might be.

[SLAVA]
Right behind you, the garrotte.

[JONATHAN]
Should put, that should be, that should be the thumbnail. It's just Nick standing behind me and me going.

[SPENSER]
Perfect. Love it.

[JONATHAN]
Mark it.

[SPENSER]
Cut and print.

[JONATHAN]
Did Matt even talk about the wormhole stuff? I don't know.

[SPENSER]
No, yes. In the beginning of the episode, he said he wanted to, that's what he wanted to focus on. And we never, we didn't get there.

[JONATHAN]
Yeah.

[SLAVA]
Guys are too busy fighting about Star Wars.

[Speaker 6]
Yeah.

[SLAVA]
So speaking about how Jonathan's mind works, I want to talk about the torture scene. That happens in his book where Roman is captured and he's tortured by that psychopath. And then the second psychopath.

I thought the way that scene, it felt drawn out in the best possible way. Not that was too much of it, but it, the fact that it lasted as long as it did seemed very realistic to me for a torture scene and Roman almost being broken and then them showing them, showing him pictures of dead Monique and messing with his head. All that I think was done well, but what stood out to me is the type of torture that happened.

They were putting him under or attacking his brain and feeding his brain pain messages. That was very unique. I thought that was, well, it just surprised me the way it jumped off the page.

I was like, oh wow, this is a completely different type of torture scene.

[JONATHAN]
Futuristic torture. Yeah. Futuristic torture.

[SLAVA]
Yeah. I liked it. I liked the scene.

[JONATHAN]
I've never read anything that had a unique torture scene before. I guess I'll say like a futuristic torture scene. It's always more primal and brutal.

Pop the guy's kneecap with a gun, pull off their toenails one by one, break a finger or two, right?

[SLAVA]
Interesting. What kind of books have you been reading?

[JONATHAN]
Oh, those aren't books.

[SLAVA]
Snuff films. What kind of snuff films have you been watching?

[JONATHAN]
Yeah, they're films.

[SLAVA]
Making? What kind of snuff films have you been making?

[JONATHAN]
No, don't worry about it.

[SLAVA]
Okay, fair enough. So mind torture. Again, unique, well done.

And it was, the way it was described, had to be excruciating. Like it wasn't just some sort of mind f***ery or a little bit of pain or some kind of deep dive into Roman psyche. The way I remember it, it was full body pain.

[JONATHAN]
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

[SLAVA]
Just excruciating.

[JONATHAN]
Well, that's why his body just instantly reacts. Like it has become one with the vitilarium, right?

[SLAVA]
Yeah.

[JONATHAN]
And so it's, we assume, assimilated into his body physiology. And so his body responding is like, I'm not putting up with this anymore. Because we learned when Norval was throwing a soccer ball at him, he's like, oh, hey, get your adrenaline pumping.

You think that torture is not going to get his adrenaline pumping?

[SLAVA]
Oh, heck yeah.

[JONATHAN]
Absolutely.

[SLAVA]
That's why he kills everybody in the room with whatever explosion comes out.

[JONATHAN]
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's really, it's captivating how he has this, I guess I'll call it pent up energy just built up because of vitilarium, but doesn't die. And so I'm looking forward to seeing how Nicholas is going to shape this superpower.

Because is it just a force bubble that he can use? That sometimes melts down? Probably not.

Right. But is it telekinesis? Also, probably not.

Right.

[SPENSER]
Like, I don't think a little because you have some of the, the hybrids are like, I can call them telex or something like that in the book.

[JONATHAN]
Okay.

[SPENSER]
Yeah, that's fair. So like they have very minor telekinesis. So I feel like Roman at some point would be able to develop that.

You know, I'm not, you know, I don't know if that's where, where Nicholas has taken the abilities, but I feel like, you know, based on things we've already seen that could happen.

[JONATHAN]
Right. Right. Yeah, I could see that.

I could see that. I could see that. What, what, this is a fun, fun question.

What would you guys like to see the power developed into? No holds barred. Like, what would, what, what would a unique fun take be in your mind?

[SLAVA]
Like him being able to shoot lasers. Or plasma rays. So, so was that Superman eyes or whatever Superman eyes or super or Superman hands or whatever the hell it is.

Cause if he creates these orbs of energy to protect him, and then he creates this orb of energy that destroys a room. Why not? It'd be a focused source of energy that shoots.

Whatever lasers, plasma force, a force of not nature, but a force of the delirium array of delirium, a source of it that he can. Yeah. It uses a weapon instead of a defensive structure or an explosion.

It comes out of his body.

[JONATHAN]
If you will.

[SLAVA]
A spirit bomb.

[JONATHAN]
It's a Dragon Ball Z reference.

[SLAVA]
Okay.

[JONATHAN]
That was here. Sure.

[SLAVA]
Or a spirit ball bomb or Ray.

[JONATHAN]
You're always talking about balls. You good over there, bro?

[SLAVA]
Not always, but I am good over here with my balls. Blue balls. We can think it could be called blue balls.

He wakes up every morning with pent up energy. No, you walked into those.

[JONATHAN]
I didn't walk into anything.

[SLAVA]
Foisted my balls on you.

[JONATHAN]
I'm looking for a new podcast host. If anyone's interested. You keep saying that.

Incapacitated moving forward with his blue balls in hand.

[SLAVA]
In hand.

[JONATHAN]
Wow. What you do off cam is what you do off cam. I don't know.

We can leave it. We don't have to talk about it. I would like to see Roman get the ability to turn invisible.

[SPENSER]
Speaking of off cam shenanigans. Okay, no, no, no, that's it.

[SLAVA]
Sorry.

[JONATHAN]
Why is that funny?

[SLAVA]
Because why? Invisible.

[JONATHAN]
I'm thinking about how the video is going to affect him. He could become transparent. It's a superpower.

I don't see a superpower superpower.

[SLAVA]
No, I understand how superpowers work. I don't think you do, but invisible. I don't see it working in this world.

It seemed too far fetched.

[JONATHAN]
I said, no holds barred.

[SLAVA]
All right. Well then, yes, he's invisible, but what does he do with it now? I'm just doing you.

I'm playing the contrarian. I'm doing you. Okay.

In this world, Roman is invisible. What does he do? Like, like gives wedgies to the Wibbitoni.

[JONATHAN]
Like, yeah, he's going to use it for amateur pranks. Oh, what else would you use it for? Thanks, Vitalarium, for giving me this superpower.

I can't wait to prank my friends. It would allow him the ability to hide because everyone's going to come after him.

[SLAVA]
Okay. And then it's over by chapter four in book two.

[JONATHAN]
No, no, no.

[SLAVA]
He's just invisible and he hides.

[JONATHAN]
Okay. It's not indefinite invisibility. He's not.

[SLAVA]
So momentary invisibility. He can just turn it on and then.

[JONATHAN]
It's cloaking. It's cloaking. Yeah.

[SLAVA]
Okay.

[JONATHAN]
Maybe there's got to be, you know, a negative side to your superpower. Otherwise, I don't know if you guys know the history of Superman. People stopped reading the comics because he was too powerful.

Do you know this?

[SLAVA]
Like, that's why Krippenite was introduced.

[JONATHAN]
Absolutely. Yeah. Go look it up.

Yeah. Because people were like, oh, this guy's too, too, too good. So he's too powerful.

We can't. I'm not interested anymore.

[SLAVA]
I know very little about Superman. I was never interested.

[SPENSER]
Well, there was no villain powerful enough. You already created the most powerful being. So how do you even create a villain to rival that?

[JONATHAN]
So then there was Krippenite. And then there was, he gets his power from the sun. They had to introduce weaknesses to make him have something to overcome.

[SPENSER]
Like Lex Luthor would never be able to stand up against Superman in a real fight. Even if you brought in like advanced tech and stuff.

[JONATHAN]
Unless he's wearing a suit of Krippenite, right?

[SPENSER]
Well, right. Well, that's why I said Lex Luthor has to have another ace up his sleeve. In this case, Krippenite.

Right.

[JONATHAN]
Or blocking him from the sun. Things like that. So.

But yes, make fun of the invisibility part. Make fun of my creative brain.

[SPENSER]
Okay. I think it would be cool to see. I've always been fascinated by, you know, superhero Superman, for instance, who can fly.

It'd be, you know, no holds barred. Roman can fly. You know, somehow he uses the power of the delirium to fly.

I don't even know what.

[SLAVA]
That's actually a fascinating.

[SPENSER]
But I think it would be cool. I think it'd be cool. See, that's more attuned to the world.

[Speaker 5]
Are you about to say realistic? That's more realistic.

[SPENSER]
Humans flying on their own is realistic.

[JONATHAN]
Birds are in the government.

[SLAVA]
Humans flying with blue shards in their face or butt or whatever it is. That is powerful enough to bend time and space that they can fly.

[JONATHAN]
Okay. On this topic of superheroes, what's your favorite superpower? Not in vitilarium slava, because I feel like for you, I need to specify.

[SLAVA]
I would say. Wrong. I like Dr. Strange's powers.

[JONATHAN]
How would you describe his powers?

[SLAVA]
He's able to bend space and time. He's able to teleport through dimensions. So I like that.

But if we're going to do more quote unquote realistic. No, no, no, no. Like earthbound superhuman.

[JONATHAN]
Any superpower, any superhero IP's fine. Yeah.

[SLAVA]
I like Dr. Strange. I like Magneto. Magneto is my favorite Marvel character.

So I'll just go with Magneto because he's my favorite. Bending metal, being magnetic.

[JONATHAN]
Spency.

[SLAVA]
E. Spency. Yep.

[JONATHAN]
Spency is my favorite superhero.

[SPENSER]
No, I think my favorite superhero, well, I don't know if he's my favorite superhero. Superman, Superman is my favorite hero, but the Flash's super speed, I think is a very fascinating power because if he can go fast enough, he can turn back time. And there's been shows and stuff, comics written about that.

So I think that would be very cool. I mean, I feel like you're almost invincible if you're too fast to catch. Yeah, if you can, if you can do it, the boys finish, I've seen season one, but yeah, anyway, I think I think super speed like the Flash is a very cool power.

Like there's a lot that the Flash can actually do with it.

[JONATHAN]
Yeah, my choice is similar to things you've both mentioned, but I think more pronounced is Nightcrawler. Nightcrawler's ability is through space and time. Nope, through space and time.

He basically can teleport because his father was a demon and his mother was the woman that we see in, she's that diamond woman. She's made of diamonds. And somehow they birthed a son who.

[SLAVA]
Oh, that's right. Yeah. The woman is the one who could take any shape.

Who's the blue woman?

[JONATHAN]
Mystique.

[SLAVA]
Mystique. Yeah. I like her.

[JONATHAN]
But it's, it's curious to me that we all picked time bending things as part of our superpower.

[SLAVA]
Yeah.

[JONATHAN]
What are we trying to go back and fix gentlemen? Hmm.

[SLAVA]
I want to go back to about January 2020. Pick a new podcast host.

[Speaker 5]
Cool.

[SPENSER]
Nevermind the world altering virus that we had.

[JONATHAN]
No, that's fine.

[SPENSER]
That's fine.

[Speaker 7]
Yeah.

[JONATHAN]
He just wants to have a new podcast host. Cool. Great.

Well, I feel really good about myself now. Thank you.

[SLAVA]
Hey, listen, you're looking for a new podcast host already. I'm going back in time. So that never happens.

[Speaker 5]
All right. We've, we've, we've degraded here. Very good.

Very good.

[SLAVA]
So overall guys are usual. We don't have to do the rating system. But overall feels about the book.

I'm giving it 10 out of 10, whatever it is. I love the book from start to finish. I enjoyed the hook in the beginning because the history is fascinating.

As I mentioned to Nick during your interview, the commentary that I mentioned this to you guys in previous episodes, the commentary and humanity was well done because it set up a different, a different power, if you will, to be involved in this and it set up the history and the commentary set up the world for me. I knew what kind of dark gritty world that was going into. And then Roman and how we get glimpses of him, you know, being a good guy, having, having heart, I thought that was well done.

The revenge in the beginning, set him up as the hard-ass he was going to become Monique and what she did for Roman, all the stuff that we've talked about. Almost ad nauseum now. I think the execution of the book from start to finish by a first-time writer, especially flawless.

I thought it was really well done and I love the book and I can't wait to read more of Roman the grind and his merry men of Wabatani.

[SPENSER]
That's a generous rating there Slava, 10 out of 10. I would probably probably do like seven out of 10. I think world building was world building was really good.

I know, I know. Surprise. Like I said, world building was really good.

I think, you know, the, the backstory, you know, that we get was good. The ended on a cliffhanger. I appreciated that.

I liked the setup and the epilogue for book two. I just think I would have liked a little bit more out of the character development. I felt like there were just some things that felt a little too rushed in my opinion, as far as like his, Roman's relationship with Monique, it to me just felt a little bit rushed.

And then even with Modus, although, I mean, there's a lot of backstory, I guess, that we don't get between him and Modus, so that kind of makes sense. But yeah, so that, I guess that's, that's my, my one, one complaint. Uh, I feel like there could have been maybe a little bit more.

It just seemed a little too rushed, you know, I mean, this whole, the whole story, I mean, once we pick up in the, uh, in real time with Roman, I mean, it's only like four weeks or something, you know, between it's quick. So like in that four weeks and one week is him going on a bender. Yeah.

So in that time he meets and falls in love with Monique and they have this, you know, really great relationship and it just feels a little, little rushed. Maybe not great, but like, but the way they, the way they interact with each other, it felt like, you know, they interact as if they'd known each other. For many years.

And it just felt a little bit, a little bit rushed to me, but, um, other than that, again, great, great world building, great narrative, great setup. Um, so yeah, seven, not seven out of 10 for me.

[SLAVA]
Yeah. And I'm, I'm agreeing with you on some of your points, Spencer. Uh, when I was listening to the book, there's items, items, events that felt a little rushed.

The one thing I'll push back on is Roman and Monique's relationship and how they became so close, so quick. I think it's because of the trauma bonding. They know this world.

Well, they come from the same world that they've been drinking and banging for a week. I think the fact that by the end of that, they're close, I think makes sense. And my generous, as you say, 10 out of 10 was I'm considering the following first time author, and that's, that's the objective part as objective as we can get the subjective part of that is from page one to the last page I was hooked.

And just like Matt, there were times even when I'm reading it and agreeing with you. Oh, this is a little bit rushed. Oh, well, this happened really quickly.

Even though I'm, I'm thinking the same stuff, uh, Spence, I'm still flipping the page and going, okay, what's next? What's what happens next? This is exciting.

This isn't enticing. So that's, that's, that's why I'm giving it such a generous rating. It's because I started listening to it and I couldn't wait to finish it.

And I had to stop listening for about a week and a half or two weeks because I wanted to fish and finish another book that was hanging over my head. So I went back to that book. I was doing some editing.

We were, uh, onboarding an intern and onboarding Paris, our editor. It was just so much going on. So I took a break and during that break, I was like fiending to finish Valerian.

And then when I got back into it, I finished it in like two days, the rest of the book. And so that's my, where my generosity. If you will, where my rating comes from, because it was just, to me, it hit everything out of the park.

And again, I'll end with this first time author for a first time author to do this. For me, uh, he's getting 10 out of 10.

[SPENSER]
Yeah, no, that you make some good points there. Yeah. I'll bump mine up to eight.

Excellent.

[JONATHAN]
Just an eight, not even an 8.5. Fine.

[SPENSER]
8.2, 8.2, 8.25. There it is.

[Speaker 7]
That's still freaking good.

[SLAVA]
No, that's freaking good. Nobody should be worried about that. Cause, and I'll use the food as an analogy again, I was talking to some of my coworkers and they asked me what I was eating and went to like a new restaurant that opened up nearby when I was eating, like, what's your rating for that Slava.

And I said, eh, uh, four out of 10. They're like, well, why are you eating it then? Like, isn't it, isn't it bad?

I'm like, no, it's four out of 10. Like on a scale of food, on a scale of things that I've eaten, it's a four and I'll eat it again because it's sustenance in this food, like I wouldn't eat a one again, if it was a five, it'd be your average, it was a burger thing. If it was five, it'd be your average burger.

And I would eat it all the time because it's five out of 10. It's a burger, but it was just, it was a little dry. The fries weren't as salty as I wanted them, but it wasn't disgusting.

So eight out of 10 is freaking good. It's a, it's a really good rating for a book.

[JONATHAN]
Thanks for dismantling my hassling of Spencer. That makes me feel good.

[SLAVA]
That's why I'm here for.

[JONATHAN]
Yeah. Uh, but to your point about food, I was just in Nashville for a trade show and honestly, I had one meal that was like a seven or an eight. Everything else was a four in Nashville.

I was like, the brisket wasn't great. The barbecue sauce was not great. The hot chicken sandwich was like a notch above Chick-fil-A, but with the accolades that it was being spoken about, I expect it to live up to a little bit better.

It was not, it was like Popeye's chicken basically, which is good. I like Popeye's, but it's just like, okay, well that's a five. It's like most meals are a neutral, like frankly, home cooked meals nowadays start at a seven because you're like, yeah, stuff out in the world is just very mediocre.

[SLAVA]
Yeah. And then it's all processed or manufactured, you know, so it. Absolutely.

And there's different ways to break up these ratings. Uh, is it a 10 out of 10 out of all of literature? No.

And that's no dig at Nicholas either, but for the genre, for what we're doing, it is a 10 out of 10. Yeah.

[JONATHAN]
Right.

[SLAVA]
Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah.

[JONATHAN]
And maybe we need to evolve our, our rating system Slava where there's like, is this a, is this a localized rating or, you know, and this is not something that, um, you know, needs to be, well, I'd probably actually build this into a system. Nevermind. I'll stop my question.

[SLAVA]
I was just going to, but I know what you're getting.

[JONATHAN]
Yeah. Maybe we should multi-layered multi-layer rating.

[SLAVA]
Yeah.

[JONATHAN]
What's the genre rating versus like factoring in, I think we, yeah, I just, I'm, yeah, well I'm fully, I'm fully admitting that my 10 out of 10 is.

[SLAVA]
Me personally. Cause I enjoyed it so much. I'm giving him extra points for me for doing what he did to me.

[JONATHAN]
Mine's a nine out of 10 because again, look, I've tried to write a book. I spent seven years writing a book. It's not published.

Like if you published a book, it's a five China Mayville. I know I gave him a bad rating, but it's a five, like the execution wasn't great. Middle of the road, whatever.

And I will like, I hope he gets tons of book sales because of how much I invent about this.

[SPENSER]
They have to go see if it's actually as bad as you say it is. Yeah. Yeah.

Pretty much.

[JONATHAN]
Uh, but, uh, but no, like as a first time author and yeah, there's questions, but the thing is like, I've trauma bonded with a gal before, uh, more than once. So like the whole, it was kind of like that, uh, kind of like a crash and burn kind of ordeal where it just like happens and you're like, Oh man, this is great. And you're all lovey dovey.

And then you're like, actually, I hate you.

[Speaker 5]
Yeah. Oh yeah.

[JONATHAN]
Because reasons, um, which we won't do, this is not a therapy session, so we won't get into it, but no, I couldn't tell us Jonathan, tell us you don't have to, I'm kidding. I'm not going to do that right now. Um, that'll be a side quest after dark.

We don't, we'll have to have more adult themes, but uh, yeah. Nine out of 10 for like absolutely what he could achieve here. But I, I am a little bit.

So Spencer, I'm, I'm, I lean a little bit towards you. Whereas like, I felt like the Monique thing was rushed, but as a book, as a whole, I really felt like it needed another seven, eight chapters, just like scattered through, not even like a single spot, but like a little bit, just a little bit. That's why we're like, when we talked to him, um, in our next episode, I can't wait to tell him like, Hey, I hope book two is a little bit longer because I really would not be upset if there was 60 chapters, um, at the length that he has them right now, I'm not talking stormlight, right.

Stormlight length book chapters, but like 60 chapters of what he wrote here, like very doable. Like I would absolutely read that.

[SLAVA]
Doubles the book, right?

[JONATHAN]
It doubles the book, but I think that the thing that he could improve on is subplots.

[SPENSER]
Yeah, I can see that.

[JONATHAN]
And that's to, you know, to quote, solve it. That's not saying it's bad. It's just an area, but this is like book one, which is like the most impressive part to me.

[SPENSER]
Yeah.

[JONATHAN]
Right.

[SPENSER]
Absolutely.

[JONATHAN]
And there may be fanboying about this.

[SPENSER]
Yeah. There might be more subplots going on that we just don't know yet because we haven't seen the whole overarching story yet. You know, he's still got what, six other books or something like that.

[SLAVA]
And he's talking, well, he's not talking, he's writing comic books that are vignettes from before the beginning of this book in the middle of this book. And, you know, throughout the whole series, there's going to be comic books that give deep dives, maybe deep dives and vignettes of the world. So the way he's setting this up, we will get our, our questions answered.

We'll get our itches scratched. If we, you know, expand beyond the immediate book that we're staying with the characters in the story.

[JONATHAN]
Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure we will, but you know, in, in, in authors who are more veteran or more seasoned, their books have a main plot, a few subplots, character development. Like they have, there's just, the layering is clearer.

Like to go back to your, you know, food analogy, it's because they've been chefs at master restaurants with Michelin stars for years where they can go, I can put a pistachio thing on the rim of the plate and then use some sort of like vinegar, salt, vinaigrette thing on my piece of tuna that when you bite it, you'll get both, you know, but they know how to do that because they've, they've been working as a chef for 20 years, right?

[SLAVA]
This is his first book. And some of those things are pulled out of their posteriors that because they've been cooking for 20, 30 years, they're like, oh, you know, what would go good with this sauce is a little bit of pistachios because the salt from this and the pistachio taste from that will accentuate the thing that I'm doing with this part of the meal. So absolutely.

Please continue Jonathan and take us away, take us off. What finish, finish this off, finish us off. Relieve the blue balls.

[JONATHAN]
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