This is the last of the series of podcasts called the apologise series as Steve managed ot catch up with the programs recorded and published so hopefully we are back to 5 days from recording to publishing.
Marijn read an article (Microsoft Teams increases collaboration in the modern workplace at Microsoft - Inside Track Blog)… it was not a podcast but real words and it created the idea of a podcast for the duo. Microsoft have been looking at how they can improve collaboration using their own tools and a process that has some alignment with ADKAR.
Steve and Marijn talk through the ideas shared in the article and how it can be adopted practically and where it all makes sense. Microsoft use to cool analogies’ that we like and that everyone can use to improve their collaboration in their organisations.
And the boys re-christens KevinM as Saint Kevin after drinking this extraordinary Irish whisky the boys take in this episode of M365Distilled
Creators & Guests
Host
What is Office 365 Distilled?
This podcast is presented by Marijn and Steve; two experienced Microsoft 365 and SharePoint consultants. In each podcast you will get a smile or two with a chunk of interesting and practical help in Microsoft 365. Then you get introduced you to what we hope is a Whisky you have not tasted before.
So you don't know how to start?
Marijn:No. I know how to finish. You know how to finish? No. I was I was thinking about let's start with, finally summer, and we are in the city.
Steve:So it's Summer in the city. Yep. Yep. I like that. No.
Steve:That would work. It is like that, I have to say. We're back on the sofas again. Yep. Although we do know now that the studio is going to dry it out after the leaky roof.
Steve:Mhmm. So we'll be back down there in a couple of 3 weeks, I would suggest. Yeah. Maybe 4.
Marijn:Well, yeah. We've got some holidays coming up. Yeah.
Steve:I got some work to do. Yeah. But yeah.
Marijn:Yeah. That's true.
Steve:It's still a bit of a disaster area. So that's cool. So welcome everybody to summer. This podcast is probably the third one that I still need to mix down. So when you get to this one, it might be winter.
Steve:No. It'll be sometime in the summer. But, I think we got 2 in the bag already, haven't we? And We do. With my moving house and stuff, I'm a bit behind on publishing.
Marijn:Which our listeners will not know about if they only listen to this now. That is true. They will never know.
Steve:No. But in theory, they should have listened to Milorda. Unless you wanna screw what he said up and actually say
Marijn:No. No. No. No. They they would have listened to the other ones by now, but they don't know that we recorded this on the 1st June.
Marijn:And no. No. No.
Steve:It's not the 1st June. Don't lie. We got a page full of red words. It's,
Marijn:yes. It's busy. Yeah. We should have used multiple colors to make it pop.
Steve:I think we'll just get very confused. So The
Marijn:big white flip chart.
Steve:Big white flip chart. Yes. So we're in the city. We're in the city of Antwerp. The windows are open because it's warm.
Steve:So if the fire engine goes by the side, you will hear it. Yep. And if the police car goes chasing down my motorcycles, but one of the favorite things apparently is for the motorcycles to come up for a Vincis threat all the way from the end. Then, of course, the police go, no. I've seen you.
Steve:So these plain police cars soon start flashing blue lights, and then they pull over the motorcycles about 50 meters past my house.
Marijn:Uh-oh. Uh-oh.
Steve:So it's quite funny, actually. Oops.
Marijn:Alright. But there
Steve:you go. Yeah. So, there you go. Alright. So you read an article.
Marijn:I did.
Steve:You read an article, and it struck you as being interesting and it Yes. I found it equally as interesting.
Marijn:Do you want me to pull that up there? Nope. By the way. No? Okay.
Marijn:Good. No.
Steve:I have good short term memory, terrible long term memory.
Marijn:Alright. Your name again was? I have no idea. No. That's fine.
Marijn:I'm the other way around.
Steve:That reminds me about the sadist and the masochist. No. That's a different joke. We'll save that before next one. Okay.
Steve:Okay. Okay. Okay. Alright. So, look, what we what we read was an article about how Microsoft are doing modern changes in the digital workplace.
Steve:So
Marijn:Actually, the article was all about how they are, trying to increase collaboration in the modern workplace with teams. So most of the just
Steve:to everybody. It's not it's not a new way of working for everybody else. It's true. It's a real life example about their employees.
Marijn:It is one of those, insider, blog posts that they do, and and I love these because you get a glimpse of how Microsoft does that. Yep. And if we know how Microsoft does it, we could just take their, their, successes and
Steve:Live examples and videos.
Marijn:Exactly. So I did I tell you so you've got the t shirt on. Did I tell you that I have a podcast? Did I tell you I've got my newsletter? So in my newsletter, I always try to put these articles in there as well because I know that people, like these.
Steve:No. It was very cool.
Marijn:This was an article about how Microsoft wants to increase collaboration by by really letting people use Teams much more.
Steve:Yeah. And we sat there reading between the lines and trying to work out where they were coming from. And we've Yeah. We've mentioned several times, we've been at various Microsoft offices over the last few months Yep. Because nobody seems to be using them as offices.
Steve:They're just being used for meetings and for customers and everything else. And Microsoft generally are not just, I wrote it on the board here, they're now mostly remote. Yeah. With very little use in the office and we know that they were remote before. I mean, I I've known some people working for Microsoft, that I've worked with and their boss is Australian and they live in Australia, you know, so their time zones are fairly screwed.
Steve:But that's just the way our Microsoft have diverse groups all over all over
Marijn:the world. Actually, a few weeks ago, we were at Comms First. Yes. And, at the speaker dinner, I was sitting next to one of the product managers for Loop. Oh, right.
Marijn:He just recently moved from Seattle to Barcelona. Nice. Because he just wanted to change of scenery. Didn't like the way the US was where they were going. So he said, and then he was South American anyway, so he already spoke Spanish and all that.
Marijn:So for him, it was more like, I'll go to the motherland.
Steve:Place. Yeah.
Marijn:Yeah. And he was talking about going skiing in the
Steve:To the motherland.
Marijn:All these things. So, yeah, that was that was nice. So and he's now just working, 3 days just working from home. Yeah. But I've got
Steve:a feeling most people work from home all the time or different locations or customers' locations. Mhmm. So I think that's why we're seeing a bit of a resurgence around within Microsoft saying, look, we need to take collaboration in in the modern workplace to the next level because we're expecting our lawyers Mhmm. Our employees are not to be in the office at all. Yeah.
Steve:Or they could be collaborating with anyone, anywhere, anytime. Martini, isn't it? Anytime, anywhere, any place. There's a wonderful world, you can space, it's an advert from the eighties. Okay.
Marijn:Okay.
Steve:Don't worry, and it was Martini. There we go. Anytime, any place. Alright. So people work.
Marijn:Yes. But on the bottom of the article
Steve:Yeah. So part of this we won't get into the reasons why, but there was some areas around how they are driving change in communications Yeah. Within Microsoft that's that kinda set fire to us, which is a pun for later. Yes. That's actually a pun, folks, but you don't know that it's a pun until we get to the bit about communications later.
Marijn:Alright. Yes.
Steve:Yeah. And let's talk about the whiskey we're gonna drink about later. We have we're going Irish again. We haven't been Irish for a long time.
Marijn:It's Irish, but it's also a little French.
Steve:It's a little French Irish person? Yes. It's a little French Irish whiskey? Yes. Nice.
Marijn:Yes. It is. Yes. So,
Steve:yeah, we're gonna go to Ireland. It's a a newbie. It's very, very nice.
Marijn:Mhmm.
Steve:And, with a hint of champagne.
Marijn:Double is
Steve:I'm so
Marijn:into the
Steve:brandy brandy. Calvados. Yeah. Yeah. So, that's good.
Steve:So we'll get on to that as well. So let's start off by just putting the model together. So Microsoft have a number of pillars of for delivering change, and that's what we're gonna talk about more than anything else, and that's what I really like about this. It's not just a it's not a bit like the proxy model.
Marijn:No. We've we've been talking about Adcar. We've done a bunch of podcasts about it. We're actually gonna do talk about ADKAR in a few weeks at the Baltic summit.
Steve:So Which means I need to publish now this one before, actually, it will be. Since September the Yeah. So let me find the dates. I wanna say 24, 25.
Marijn:I think it's 14 ish.
Steve:And we're gonna find out who's right.
Marijn:We are going to find that out in
Steve:I know I'm right. Everybody don't worry.
Marijn:23 balticsummit.pl13 14 September. He's right.
Steve:Bloody hell. Always right. Yeah. So 13th 14th September?
Marijn:Yep. In Gdansk? Yes. So it's apparently in Zdynia, which is very close to Gdansk. It's apparently 3 cities melted together.
Steve:I thought that, this would be the place was the Polish word for Gdansk.
Marijn:No. No. No. Apparently so what I read about it is that it's 3 cities that kind of melted together.
Steve:Yeah. And,
Marijn:it's now one big city or something.
Steve:Anyway, it's on the Baltic Sea. Exactly. And, it looks lovely. And we're gonna spend the whole day on the Friday talking about change. Talking about change, AtCar 365 style.
Marijn:Yes. But Microsoft has decided not to use the ADKAR framework.
Steve:Nope. They've they've basically looking at in some ways, this framework is a little bit like the last letter of Adkar.
Marijn:Okay, they are, you mean? Yes, they are.
Steve:But you're going to tell us what it means.
Marijn:It's the, the repetition, the repetition,
Steve:Yeah, so so it's a little bit like that. It's about the practical sides of things. So so that's good. So we've got these pillars and then they've come up with some really cool ways of how to drive communications. And that's the 3 three way model and that's what we're gonna talk about now.
Marijn:So So we got 4 pillars and 3 ways.
Steve:Four pillars and 3 ways. Good. Yes. The ways of the fire. Okay.
Marijn:Yeah. Yeah. I kind of feel like a boy scout
Steve:looking at us,
Marijn:I guess. Okay. Or an arsonist.
Steve:But we
Marijn:but, anyway
Steve:Yeah. Let's be real honest. So the first pillar is one that I've heard before.
Marijn:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So pillar number 1 starts with the letter a. A for awareness.
Marijn:Awareness. Yes. So that is indeed as the ADT CAR model as well. And it's all about making sure that everybody knows about the change that is going to come.
Steve:Yeah. In in the AdCol world, of course, awareness is all about letting them know what's coming around the corner. Yeah. But this has some really good little sub bullets around it. So basically, this that it's more practical.
Steve:Most of these, are really about real time Mhmm. About physical change, about practical delivery. So they have things like landing the message. So, you know, making sure the message is clear that it lands in front of everybody that they're able to sort of, you know, understand it and know where it's coming from and what it's doing. Yeah.
Steve:And it's measurable. You know, if you use Amplify or whatever, you know what the message is, you know, whether people have read it, you can question them whether they understand it. Yeah. So it's a nice sort of, pictorial way of of talking about awareness, landing the message, getting it in front of people and everything else.
Marijn:Yeah. So they actually have, defined the number of tasks that you need to do in the awareness stage. You want me to talk about those?
Steve:They're not written on the whiteboard.
Marijn:They're not written on the whiteboard.
Steve:Talk about stuff not written on the whiteboard. Yes. We are. Sure. Yes.
Steve:Because you said, let's do a short podcast.
Marijn:Yes. We
Steve:have a sheet of paper that's busier than ever.
Marijn:I know.
Steve:And now you're gonna add the tasks. Yes. Alright. Away you go.
Marijn:It's, scope creep.
Steve:Scope creep.
Marijn:So, for awareness, what Microsoft says is, the the the tasks that you need to do is identify the key roles, to describe the value and impact. Number 2 is create a visual campaign to build awareness. Use internal social channels to engage communities and build excitement, and inspire adoption with a supportive community of power users and influencers. So they're using a champions, approach as well in that awareness section pillar. Oh, have you done?
Steve:Yes. Okay. Alright. I think better still the 3 messages that we put on the board. Maybe.
Steve:Alright. So landing the message, good first impression. Yeah. Because very often in the awareness stage that we know, you're basically just letting people know, like we talked about today, we're gonna improve some security settings
Marijn:Mhmm.
Steve:And we're gonna give people an overview of where we're at. Yeah. But this is basically saying, make sure that whatever that message is, it's gonna make a good first impression. Yeah. They're not gonna go, oh, god, more change.
Steve:Mhmm. Or, well, we're already doing that anyway. That, you know, they're gonna be positive about it because it's gonna make a good impression. And then messages that excites the employees about Teams in this particular case. Yeah.
Steve:Things that actually make them want to use Teams.
Marijn:Yeah. Like this is the way how you're gonna save 30 minutes every day. Yep. Yep. Stuff like that.
Steve:And this is how Copilot can make life easier for you. Mhmm.
Marijn:Yeah. No, absolutely. And I love that first pillar. I think that's a very good well, before you change something, you can't just go and do the change or ask people to do the change. You need to tell them what is going to happen anyway.
Marijn:1st. No.
Steve:I agree entirely. I agree entirely.
Marijn:So So I like that,
Steve:but I like the way they've got landing the message. Good first impression. I think good first impression is my gold star comment at this point in time. Yes. The nugget to be confirmed, but, I like
Marijn:Why does it need to be confirmed?
Steve:Because there might be more better nuggets coming out.
Marijn:Okay. Okay. Okay. Like, this is the the top nuggets for now. Yes.
Steve:Yep. First impression. Good first impression.
Marijn:First impressions. Yes. Yeah.
Steve:Yeah. Alright. The second pillar is engagement.
Marijn:Yes. And
Steve:again, the word engagement says involvement, acceptance, and everything else. I think that's pretty neat. And again, it's telling you only do things that build engagement that actually ensure they're involved. So, you know, putting Teams in the hands of the users. So, you know, physically telling them or showing them and leading them down the path of using it Yeah.
Steve:And delivering it, and anything else.
Marijn:I have to say I like that more than in the ADH CAR framework after awareness, there comes desire. So you need to build that desire and then comes the knowledge. You need to train those people. And here, and I'm I'm guessing it's maybe because Microsoft is more into technology anyway, and they have very clever people in there that they would just go from, hey, this is what we're going to do, and then here is the tool, Start using it, and these are scenarios that this might help you.
Steve:Yeah. And I think that we talked about good impressions and landing the message. They're the desire bits.
Marijn:Okay. Yeah. So they kind
Steve:of awareness and desire. They've kinda got it in there, haven't they? Yeah. But engagement is neat. And integrating Teams into the employee's modern workplace.
Steve:So because they don't go into the office and have real meetings anymore Mhmm. Everything is over Teams. Yep. And so they're placing Teams to actually be their core product. They're they can do everything from within Teams.
Marijn:Yes. It's their hub for teamwork.
Steve:Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. So integrating Teams into the employee's modern workplace And I I really think that's quite cool.
Steve:And basically, I like the the statement we put in there, increasing collaboration productivity. Yeah. Now do we have some tasks around engagement?
Marijn:We do. We do. We do. We do. We do.
Marijn:So with engagement, what we're gonna do is we are going to run a pilot program, which makes sense, creating buying with stakeholders by designing engagements to build momentum.
Steve:And Engagement to build momentum.
Marijn:I need to I need to read read some more of the what they say on this, task. In these engagements, we sat down with our business teams to give hands on in person guidance for using Teams. We offered common scenarios for using Teams, demonstrated Teams features, and gave general guidance. It allowed us to focus in on a business team and show how teams would be used in their day to day work. So they actually
Steve:We're gonna talk about that a little bit later in the other two 2 modules. They really are using examples that work. Yeah. And then they're communicating those examples tried and tested by other people in the company. You should try doing this.
Steve:I
Marijn:love this idea. Exactly. So after that pilot project, these are the good values. Yeah. And then we can actually go to a number of these stakeholders, to our champions and, talk about these are the good things that we can, use.
Steve:Yep. Yeah. Because we're being lazy on the sofa. I keep panicking that the recordings are stopping.
Marijn:Yeah. We don't have our little light, recording light on.
Steve:No. That one has not worked since, Amsterdam. Oh, okay. Since dropping it.
Marijn:Oh, that might have something to do with it.
Steve:Yeah. I honestly think it was a software upgrade somewhere that stopped it working, but that's okay. So anyway, increasing collaboration productivity. So you work better by collaborating and they they sort of seen that.
Marijn:And we're going to show you the values and the scenarios that you can use this in so that this this will drive engagement because you will see firsthand in a practical way how this will help you. So No.
Steve:I agree entirely. And then the next one, I love measurement. Yeah. I'm a I'm a bit on
Marijn:the short side, so I don't like measurements. But,
Steve:everything comes in small packages.
Marijn:It's true.
Steve:Except no, let's not go there. Right. Measurement, because, that's how you ensure success by being able to measure that it works. So the the stuff you read out there earlier was tracking practical steps. Yeah.
Steve:You know, so employees modern workplace and increasing their collaboration. What works is we'll track and identify those practical things that work, and then we acquire the actionable feedback. So if somebody said, hey, this meeting went well, I guess what Microsoft are also doing, so let's check what the how, why that meeting went and why it went well. Yeah. And then what can we learn from that and then they're refining those, they're refining their improvement, so they're measuring it And if something went well, let's tell everybody else how well it went and then make sure that we replicate that improvement.
Marijn:It's actually funny because when you end the team meeting, it always asks like 1 to 5 stars. How good? How well was the was the
Steve:Yeah. It's not every time, by the way.
Marijn:No, it's not every time. But, earlier today, when I had a meeting with one of our team members, I got that and I was like, oh, I'll fill that in. So I gave it a 5 star review.
Steve:I always click that.
Marijn:I never do that.
Steve:I always just click that away. It's a way of saying, you can't be precisely, but you can basically say, do you wanna do it often or do you wanna do it not so often or so within Teams, you can say, like, do it every 10 times or something. But then
Marijn:do we have some way to get some insights? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Steve:Yeah. Yeah.
Marijn:Of course, as a Teams MVP,
Steve:I know this. I was gonna say. Yeah. I'm a Teams MVP. Sorry?
Steve:I'm not a Teams MVP.
Marijn:No. You're a SharePoint MVP.
Steve:I'm a SharePoint and an m 365 MVP.
Marijn:Yeah. Well well, we're both m 36 5 and
Steve:Oh, I thought you were Teams. Yes.
Marijn:But then m 365 and then Teams in in particular.
Steve:Is 1, is it? Yeah. Same one. Yeah. Yes.
Steve:I'm a SharePoint MVP. Yeah. Do you know Anouk friend of ours? You know? She got a little annoyed because she was the only Share Point MVP in Belgium.
Steve:Really? And now I've got me
Marijn:to do it.
Steve:That is funny.
Marijn:It was funny. And we actually have Peter, also a friend of the podcast.
Steve:Yep. Loop
Marijn:man. He's a loop
Steve:Loop man.
Marijn:He's one of 3 or 5 people.
Steve:He's a smart cookie, his peer.
Marijn:He is a smart cookie. But now I also saw a number of people getting a second MVP in, Copilot. Oh, not surprised. So they've been handing out well, that's a new, it's a new category. Yeah.
Marijn:So that's cool.
Steve:Nice. I bet you wish you'd put that category in now.
Marijn:Yes. Yeah.
Steve:You would have liked that cool.
Marijn:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Steve:Yeah. Co pilot MVP.
Marijn:But me and Peter are doing a lots of, Co pilot carnivals in the next upcoming months.
Steve:Co pilot carnival. Yes. That's the title of
Marijn:our session that we've done in the Netherlands in June. And we're gonna do that in Hamburg and in, Bletchley and a number of other, occasions as well. Yeah.
Steve:I refused to jump on the bandwagon. I mean, I thought about it and I did put some copilot things together and then I went, you know, I yeah. So I refuse to jump on the back.
Marijn:I want to I I am aware. I am not often very engaged because I don't see those scenarios where it can really help me. Although last week, I had to build an, an offer for an RFP and I just said, okay, write an offer inward, based on this RFP. And it kind of did a pretty good job. So It only gave me, like, my day rates that it put on there.
Steve:They were pretty low. That much, so I'm gonna change it.
Marijn:It was pretty low. So I I I drove that up a little bit, but I
Steve:I had a couple of occurrences today, these last few days, that were pretty cool around Copilot or chat GPT, whatever Yeah. Way we do it. First one was, I wrote an email for sponsors for Cloud Build. We're putting that sponsor together. And then, one of the other members of the team, Gil, said, let me just ask Copilot to make this more concise.
Steve:Yeah. So he put it in and and we ended up with quite a nice responded email. And then Anouk Quentin took it away and said, let me get Copilot to add some images. So she then got it to add images and it came up with all these little little icons with, so it turned it into, you know, all the bullets turned into rockets and everything else, and it actually Nice. Tightened it all up.
Steve:That was really cool. And then today, I had to do a, report, for a governance board.
Marijn:Mhmm.
Steve:And and so I took time to write the prompt about what I wanted it, and then I asked it to create the document. And it did a very good job. I mean, listen. It's all about the 19 seventies, garbage in, garbage out. Yeah.
Steve:Right? Yeah. If you sit there and say, hey. Create me a outline for building a new house, please. Yeah.
Steve:You're gonna end up with something. Mhmm. But you need to kind of talk them about bedrooms, the square footage, what kind of style you want Mhmm. To get the right answer. Yeah.
Steve:And so yes. But that was quite good. So I did I have to say Copilot impressed me the last few days. Mhmm. So that's good.
Steve:Alright. Alright. So we talked about measurement. Yes. It's important.
Steve:So if you're going to ensure your engagement is satisfactory, then you need to kinda measure it and get some feedback and everything.
Marijn:But the measurement is only important for the organization. It's not important for the end user. Well, in the end, it's
Steve:No. But it's a feedback loop. Yeah. That's what we're actually building here. It's a feedback loop to sort of say, hey.
Steve:Look. This works for them. Yeah. Let's tell everybody else about it.
Marijn:Yeah. That's true.
Steve:Another thing is key. We were talking about doing that, you know, for stuff over the last few weeks as well.
Marijn:Yeah. It's true.
Steve:So, I think it's important. Mhmm. But the the thing about all of this is that it takes a team to actually do this. It's not something that you can just sort of make it automated and
Marijn:No. No. No.
Steve:That's won't do this for you.
Marijn:No. That's one of the tasks in engagement is to actually build a team and and grow a team, because that will be growing and growing the more you will put out. Yeah.
Steve:And then the 4th pillar? Zmersionism. Zmersionism. Management. Management.
Steve:My handwriting says, but it actually says management. Yeah. I'm not it's I'm not sure management is the best word here,
Marijn:actually. Me neither because it could be interpreted in various different ways. Like, is it management of the application or as the organization or yeah.
Steve:So what I did was I've kinda put a definition around this, and that it was to create best practice habits from actual examples. So when you know something works, then tell them, tell them, tell them, and tell them again.
Marijn:Exactly. Because you want
Steve:to be able to get
Marijn:this creative. Actually our reiteration bit of action. Yeah.
Steve:Yeah. Yeah. It is. So it has the longest timeline because this is your ongoing growth. Yeah.
Steve:And then I put another comment after I translate a little bit from you. We gain experiences and ensure satisfaction.
Marijn:Yeah. And also Teams being a tool that that changes as well. Yeah. So how do we come up with those changes, all the feedback that got acquired, that got into the system, what can we do with it? Not only create better user stories, but also create a better application and then drive that back.
Steve:Yep. I I agree. And and I think it again, I I keep talking about it, but it's about constant improvement loops, this whole Yeah. Four pillars. Mhmm.
Steve:And based upon the fact you're measuring something and then anything that comes back with a a nice positive remark, then let's push it out there for everybody else to to learn from. My CIO is constantly saying, we don't wanna reinvent the wheel. Let's go and find out what our other people are doing this thing that we're trying to improve and then let's just basically copy them with, you know, they call it pride. That was the word. Copy with pride.
Marijn:Copy with pride. We don't steal, but we copy with pride. Yes. But that is actually a question I get from lots of my customers. They're all saying, like, we can't be the first one to do this.
Marijn:How do other organizations do it? A few months ago, I was helping an organization implement an ISO 9,000 something, document management thing.
Steve:You were doing that?
Marijn:Kind of. All right.
Steve:You were in the room feeding them some drinks and cookies.
Marijn:No, I was handling the practical SharePoint bits.
Steve:Yeah.
Marijn:And, and that was one of the things that they, they actually said, like, how do other organizations do this?
Steve:The same way you would show in the metadata.
Marijn:Exactly. Yeah.
Steve:No. I get it. No. I say 9,000 is a is a really good good process to put into SharePoint. It works very well.
Steve:Yep. So there we go. Awareness, engagement, measure that engagement, and then tell everybody else about it, and then manage it to make sure that that engagement stays in place.
Marijn:Cool. So get a product owner and let him drive or she, her, them, they drive.
Steve:However many they are. Yes. Good. Do you think that we'll have generations of people with schizophrenic ideas? This is my they talking.
Steve:This is my she talking. Maybe. Maybe. Because I'm an he, she, they, whatever. Can you be more than 1?
Steve:Well, yes. We're fully inclusive. Of course, you can. I can be a
Marijn:e and a l. Yes. There was, I read something about that, about a person that changed into 9 different personalities or or or pronouns during a day. Yes. And that was very difficult because if you said, like, oh, I wanna talk to you.
Marijn:No. I'm I'm not a you now. I'm I'm a them right now. It's like, how the fuck should I know Yeah. I know.
Marijn:If you're changing all the time?
Steve:The other problem I I had, I mean, I know we're talking about a whole subject here, but it just happened to come up again this week. We were talking about they and of course, the grammar doesn't work. Because you're talking about a single person, you go, yeah, they went to, you'd say they went to or they instead of, you know, I go to and and it just didn't work.
Marijn:No. You kind of had
Steve:to sit there and change the rest of the grammar to make the sentence correct. I think, yeah, but then it has a completely different meaning, but
Marijn:that's I think this this will all go away. This will all pass.
Steve:I don't know. I think it'll morph into something that hopefully becomes more practical. It's a bit like Wicked. You know, wicked used to be some kind of evil thing, and then it turned into somebody in a good thing.
Marijn:It's true.
Steve:It's like gay used to mean happy.
Marijn:Yes. Exactly. And how all the kids now are using sleigh. Something is very cool. Sleigh.
Steve:Yeah. There you go. What? So I I wonder what how I don't know. I guess in today's age it's about somebody sending out on social and lots of people reading it.
Steve:Yeah. And in my day, it was there was a magazine article that everybody read and blah blah blah. Well, it's it
Marijn:doesn't matter.
Steve:Yeah. But that's what we're talking about here. Yes. Yeah. We're talking about how habits were formed Mhmm.
Steve:And how everybody got motivated by it and, and the management then made went went on to maintain it and to keep it going. Yeah. So I like that. I like I'm not sure how we can easily use it or apply it. But, certainly, the the my key messages that it's practical.
Marijn:Well, I think that, it's it can be used kind of in the same way as the ADKAR model, although this is more it's more it's more iterative. Yeah. Yeah. The ADT CAR model is about something's going to change. I'll make you excited.
Marijn:I will teach you how to use it. And then you can go back to your desk. And then at some point, I'll reiterate that.
Steve:Reiterate it.
Marijn:This is much faster. Yeah. This this feels like it the the feedback loops are coming much faster.
Steve:I get it. And then they started talking about fire. Yes. Which we quite liked.
Marijn:Yes.
Steve:And it was around the communications of this, because obviously all of those stages require communications and that we want to be able to tell people and we want to reiterate how something is and manage it so that it keeps getting reused. And so they had a a a, basically, a communications area around fire. Alright. So this is what set this is what sparked your interest.
Marijn:I have to say this is what ignited my love for the way Microsoft does things.
Steve:And then the bonfires will just keep burning.
Marijn:Yes. So that is indeed how Microsoft is is doing this. So they are saying, we start with what? So we Find the spark. Find the sparks.
Marijn:It might be more than one spark.
Steve:It may will be.
Marijn:Spark z. And that will help the thing that we're trying to roll out catch fire in the organization.
Steve:Yeah. I mean, a fire starts whether you strike the match and you get sparks that set the the match alight and you then start the fire off, but you know what it's like, a fire doesn't suddenly go boom, it's a light, so you know, you're now knocking your sausages on it, it's your barbecue, started and I know. And it I know. I can remember some very cold
Marijn:nights in Denmark a few years ago when we couldn't get the fire started. So yeah. Yep. Yep. So but they're
Steve:talking about find the spark. So that's it needs to be concise kind of communication and message that basically helps everybody catch fire and get excited about it.
Marijn:You have to find those little scenarios that people say, oh, this helped me Yep. Skip 20 minutes of my day. Yep. Yeah. And those you need to hone and and use and, in in your, messages.
Marijn:Yep. That's cool. And then
Steve:the next one was ignite. Yes.
Marijn:Yes. So how are we gonna use this? And that's gonna, like, burn that or yeah. No. Not burn.
Marijn:Okay. Help that spark, get into a big flame.
Steve:Yeah. I mean, basically, it's that point where you start to see the fire catch. Yeah. And then, effectively, you fan it. I need to use that word carefully, but you basically kind of fan the fire, fan the flames, help them to grow, help them just catch on to the the sticks.
Steve:I I have this vision of my grandfather from a long, long time ago, sticking newspaper across the front of the the fire to draw the air through, and, you know, fan the flame Yes. To get that Yeah. Ignite to ignite that fire and to help it move it forward. You're looking at tasks again, are you?
Marijn:Yeah. I am. I am. Because they they're all putting tasks in all these things. Now we are going to put this, article in the show notes as well.
Marijn:Yep. Yeah. With the Ignite, it says it's, it's designed to convert immediate attention into short term focus and initiate our adoption steps.
Steve:Yeah. We're talking about that today a little bit. So we're kind of in a project where we're trying to roll out conditional access. Yeah. Where we're gonna trying to basically say that company content needs to be on a company device.
Steve:Yeah. We're in a scenario because there's not been any policies around previously, so people use their own laptops and their own desktops. Yep. And we're basically gonna stop that. And we start talking about the kinds of messages and and how we're gonna communicate it.
Steve:And quite honestly, without knowing it, we were setting the sparks. We talked about setting that spark around keeping people, to help catch the fire. Let them know ahead of the time that there's kind of more secure ways of accessing in in place. Yep. Get those kind of sparks moving around and expanding till they get to the point where they can catch fire.
Steve:Yep. And then you were talking about the message where we this is what's gonna happen to with the POC team Yeah. With the testing team. We're kind of igniting the flames. We're kind of, setting you know, we're encouraging the fire to spread Mhmm.
Steve:With those kind of messages. And then in terms of the bomb fire, it'll be how you can get training, you know, how that fire is gonna be maintained, adding more fuel into that fire. Adding more ideas, more text, more training, all the kinds of feeds. Yeah. So we're, you know, just looking away with that today, we can take this and
Marijn:Yeah. No. Absolutely. And and it also works for for cultural change is to find those few people or those few habits that could really change the organization and try to fuel those sparks Yep. By in in well, doing your whole adoption process around it.
Marijn:And then That's cool. Put that management layer underneath it to to keep it burning.
Steve:But it's visual, isn't it? That's what
Marijn:I like
Steve:about this. I can see sparks lifting up, you know, from flames. I can see sparks where you're trying to get a match to light the fire, and ignite and, of course, bonfire, sitting next to a bonfire on a Oh. Little dark night is Would you like to wish to experience.
Marijn:Yes. You're right.
Steve:Nice. Yeah. Which probably is a good time to move on.
Marijn:Well, I I do have one maybe kinda closing thing. Like, we we were talking about Copilot earlier. Yes. In what of these stages are we now do you think, around Copilot? I think we are at the spark level, and we're not yet at the ignite level.
Marijn:I think Microsoft tries to ignite it, but I don't have the feeling that the rest of the world is following yet.
Steve:I agree. And I'm gonna ask you for a name in a little while that you can't remember, but, just thought you'd let you know. You might want to look something up. But we were at Commsverse. We did some interviewing of speakers in 1 or 2 of us, and we interviewed 2 Microsoft people.
Steve:The girl we knew
Marijn:from the 1st conference was and Chris. Oh, I always forget his last name. Chris.
Steve:Chris, last name? Can't remember. But they were talking about the fact that Microsoft is starting to work on the ignite stage. You know, people have got Copilot, they've kinda started using it, doing things with it. Some people love it and have worked out the magic, and they're kinda saying, we're now working on, basically, the ignite stage, how we can set fire to the audience.
Steve:And so I think that's where most people are around Copilot.
Marijn:Yeah. Yeah.
Steve:Yeah. Where they get into the point where they're just about fanning the flames to to keep it moving.
Marijn:Yeah. And I I think that is the important bit. Like give a few people co pilot and see what sparks.
Steve:Yeah. I think so. Yeah. I think so.
Marijn:And then if you can find those sparks, then you can just push that out and make a big story out of it.
Steve:Alright. Cool. Neat. Neat. Neat.
Steve:Alright. Time for some whiskey.
Marijn:Time for some whiskey. Let me pour Glendalough.
Steve:Is it Glendalough? Glendalough? Glendalough something?
Marijn:That's a very good question.
Steve:It's, an Irish whiskey, and they don't know how to speak, so the spelling of the word is, a little difficult. So it's g l e n, Glen, of course, and Dalough or Dalough, d a l o u g h. The thing is that this is finished in a Calvados cask, so a kind of brandy cask, is is what it's finished with. It's a apple brandy. It is an apple brandy.
Steve:Yes.
Marijn:It's a Calvados is an apple brandy. Yes. Good call. Yes.
Steve:Good call. It's a single grain whiskey, and, basically the
Marijn:Even single cask. Is it? Yeah. I see that on the on the bottom of the single cask. Nice.
Steve:So this came from a trip to Montreal in Germany. There was a a great whiskey store called the Angel's Share with a really motivated owner and staff. And I kind of mentioned about Irish. She went, oh, if you like Irish whiskey, you've gotta try this, and so I bought the bottle.
Marijn:Yeah. I was just reading the back of the label, which is pretty
Steve:Pretty label?
Marijn:Or Pretty pretty, inspirational. So on the front of the page, you see a man with his arms spread.
Steve:Looks like Gandalf the wizard.
Marijn:Yes. But it is Saint Kevin. And they say No.
Steve:No. No. No. Stop. There's a saint called Kevin.
Marijn:Yes. That's
Steve:a very medieval name. Saint Kevin,
Marijn:the man on our bottle, stood apart. The whiskey does the same. End of story.
Steve:Kevin McDonald.
Marijn:I'm intrigued. I need to know more. Saint Kevin. Trust me. He's not.
Marijn:No. No. No. We love him. But, I'm I'm intrigued with, Saint Kevin.
Marijn:I'm I'm gonna look.
Steve:You'll look that up.
Marijn:I'm gonna look that up, yeah, later on. Nice. I wanna know what that is.
Steve:So what we're actually tasting is a single grain whiskey, and you said it's a single cask. Mhmm. There is a limitation on the bottles, so it's not a Makes sense. A large one, which is nice. But, the nose is vanilla honey, garden fruits, typical kind of Irish.
Marijn:Mhmm.
Steve:Yeah. It is quite nice actually. It's kind of a hint of fruit which is different for
Marijn:an Irish. Absolutely. But but also, like, fresh fruit, like, some some grass and and fresh fruit.
Steve:Reminds me a little bit of Righteous Tears, you know, with that green apple y kind of, nose.
Marijn:Yeah. But, that was more warm. This is more early springtime. Yeah.
Steve:Yeah. I like this. It's nice. Yeah. Yeah.
Steve:Yeah. Tastes caramel sweets and toffee, cooked apples and pears, a hint of cinnamon and honey.
Marijn:Yes. That kind of I I would I would expect something like that. Definitely with that Galvados finish, he sits there with the thinking face.
Steve:I do my thinking face. I like cinnamon, so I always try and taste it. I'll try and work out where it is.
Marijn:It's somewhere in the middle. It's not in the first bit.
Steve:Yeah. It's
Marijn:not. But it develops in the middle. In the first bit, I get that toffee in the apple very much.
Steve:The finish is supposed to be green apples and spicy oak.
Marijn:No. I don't. I get that oak, but it's not very spicy, and I don't get any green apples.
Steve:No. I kinda get a hint, but I know where you're coming from. But it doesn't matter. That's what the notes say. Mhmm.
Steve:But this whiskey is very good.
Marijn:It is a very nice drinking whiskey. Yeah. That's very true. It's very true. I can I can easily just have a sip of this every day on in the evening?
Marijn:Definitely now it's summertime. It is definitely something like a summertime
Steve:It's an Irish whiskey. Yeah. It's, what it is in terms of It is what it is. Steps. Yeah.
Steve:No. But, you know, I I mean, it's a typical Irish whiskey. Yeah. Smooth.
Marijn:Yes. Very. It's,
Steve:and that cowardice adds to it. Yeah. No doubt about that.
Marijn:It's a nice layer on top of that.
Steve:It's a it's
Marijn:a great idea.
Steve:No. No. So I did a quick search on Saint Kevin. Good. Alright.
Steve:So Kevin of Glendalough is definitely one of the results. Saint Kevin's is a neighborhood in Dublin in Ireland. There's Saint Kevin School, Saint Kevin Church, Saint Kevin and the Blackbird. It's a song by Liam O'Flynn and Seamus Henley. No idea.
Steve:Right. Anyway, I will click on the Irish Saints. So there he is. Apparently, June 3rd is Kevin's Day, Saint Kevin's Day. Oh, wow.
Steve:Never heard of it. Apparently, it is the founder and first abbot of Glendalough in County, Wicklow, Ireland. And the 3rd June is the feast day for Saint Kevin.
Marijn:Okay.
Steve:So, Kevin Kevin McDonald, you did not know this. If you did know this, great. If not, you're now forever our saint Kevin.
Marijn:Yes. We will baptize and Christian him in the name of m 365 as
Steve:Oh, yes.
Marijn:Saint Kevin.
Steve:Nice. Oh, there you go. Well, that was interesting. The whole thing was pretty cool.
Marijn:Yeah. Yeah. I'll I liked the article. I mean, I I started reading the article from Microsoft where it was all about rolling out Teams. And I was like, yeah.
Marijn:Yeah. Yeah. That all makes sense. And then suddenly, the the blog post changed into a whole story about adoption and and how they have these 4 pillars. And I was like, this is amazing stuff.
Marijn:This should have been like a separate blog post.
Steve:No. I think they were telling the story. I like I like the article. It's in from a storytelling perspective, at a beginning, a middling, and an end,
Marijn:which is nice. Yes.
Steve:So it was a a nice article. Because otherwise, you might not have caught the context of one of them the other. So Yeah. Maybe. It's there.
Steve:Maybe. But effectively, what this is is about Microsoft saying, okay. Practically speaking, we're gonna find shit that's good, tell everybody about it, and then encourage everybody to use the things that work. Yeah. And that's what agile is about in many, many ways.
Steve:So it's about iterations that work. Yeah. And are and are under control. So that's pretty neat.
Marijn:And this also helps Microsoft to deliver those messages to their customers.
Steve:This is now even though it was actually,
Marijn:not the Because they are customer 0, of course. Yeah. But if they can find out those little sparks within their organization, those will become talking points when they are talking to, outside customers.
Steve:Yep. I agree entirely. Yeah. So no. It's cool.
Steve:Nice subject. Great podcast. Yeah. Great podcast. I enjoyed it.
Steve:And fabulous whiskey. Yes. You find grand, Glendalough. It's obviously named after the area and Saint Kevin. Apparently.
Steve:Apparently. Yep. And, in Calvados, Exo Barrels finish.
Marijn:Mhmm.
Steve:So it's very nice indeed. So Yeah. There you go. Alright. So I think we're done.
Steve:Yes. Amazing. No. 45 minutes. Good.
Steve:It's short
Marijn:and Nice. Short and sweet.
Steve:Yep. And, we will say goodbye until next time, guys. So goodbye from me, Steve Dolby. Hope you're gonna have a great summer holiday. Hope you're gonna be superb and or you may have had a summer holiday, depending on what time we actually published this.
Steve:And that maybe you're listening to this as you're driving through to Ireland to find Glendalough near Wicklow in Ireland, and find the, distillery and buy yourself a bottle. That would be a good holiday. Yes. Sounds good. Actually, Brian is in Ireland this weekend.
Steve:Oh. And I've actually told him, you need to get me a bottle of whiskey. So I don't know what he's gonna get. Uh-huh. But, yes.
Steve:So we will probably have another little Irish one.
Marijn:Knowing Brian, he will probably come up with something very cool. I hope so. Yeah. I hope so. Alright.
Marijn:So Cool.
Steve:Thanks very much, guys. Ciao. Ciao.