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This episode covers the shame trigger of sex. Samantha talks with Kyra Flatow about what sex looks like after trauma, especially trauma that is sexual in nature. Kyra shares her story and her journey to finding healing and finding pleasure in sex over time. Her wisdom about how to approach difficult and awkward conversations shines through, so listen in as she and Samantha "Flush It Out!"
Flushing It Out with Samantha Spittle, the Introvert's Extrovert. The podcast where she talks to people so you don't have to...for now.
Samantha Spittle 0:00
Something that I was thinking about before our conversation is I've had a couple of friends that have had just, you know, the the phone call, you get the phone call, and I dropped to my knees hearing the news. And then I've had my own life experience now where my world was crumbled. And the common theme in those different events for me, was this feeling of how do we move on from here? Like, I remember saying to my mom, like, how will my friend ever be? Good, you know, like, like, you just, it stops you in your tracks. And I think that, you know, as we approach sex, and everything, for me, you know, we've talked about sexual abuse, on the podcast over trauma. And that, of course, you know, we've touched on it here with our talks around sex. And, you know, it's this thing that's supposed to be amazing, and the way we find connection, but there's so much brokenness, through, you know, trauma and abuse. And so, I appreciate you coming on today to talk about these hard things, you know, this, as you said, before, there's like this juxtaposition of the trauma, but then also this wanting it to be a really good thing. So
Kyra Flatow 1:07
yeah, and it's, it's, it's a strange experience, when you have had sex used against you in an unhealthy relationship. And you find yourself in a place of like, that's all I have to offer is my body. And then getting into a relationship, where that's not the case, and a human like, fully sees you for who you are, and you don't, like, it was really hard for me to learn that, like, if my partner wants sex, I don't have to want it. And I can say, like, I'm not in the mood or like, I, I just don't want to right now, right? Like, that was a really hard boundary for me to learn. Because in my bad relationship, my abusive, it was abusive, physically, it was abusive, verbally, abuse, abusive mentally, and it got to the point where I was like, I have to have sex with him, because that's what he wants number one. And number two, that's, that's how he will stay. Right. That's how he will stay. And then getting to the point in new relationships, where, you know, I've had some situations where I haven't wanted to have sex with my partner, but I've done it anyways. And then afterwards, I'm just like, in this bad mood and are like, just like, in a strange place mentally, and it kind of like, takes me back to that, like, abusive relationship. And like, my partner being like, what's like, are you okay? Like, don't do something wrong, what's going on and having to, like, be blunt, and be honest and be like, I just like, didn't really, I don't know, I just like, wasn't in the mood, and then having to have my partner be like, oh, like, oh, my gosh, you should have said that, like, I feel terrible. Now, like, I would not have done that. Had I known that. And just having to learn that that's a thing that I can say is that, I don't want to do that. But that doesn't mean that I'm not going to want to do it, maybe 10 minutes from our next year, you know, like, whatever the time frame is like, it's just in this moment, it doesn't feel good in my body. And like, that goes back to having to trust my body, which is a very difficult thing, as a trauma survivor of like, believing yourself and understanding your gut and like, trusting that your body knows what it's doing. And like, I mean, it's been, what, almost 15 years since my assault and kidnapping, and like, I still have moments where my body reacts to things. And I'm like, What are you doing that? And then I'm like, oh, oh, you still remember? Like, yeah, you still know what happened and like, are trying to protect me from that happening again?
Samantha Spittle 4:09
Well, I would love to have you introduce yourself. And so everyone can hear from you. And of course, hear more about your story. Because I know that you have done so much of the hard work and just being able to talk about it today. And I always say this, but I say it again. You know, not everyone is meant to share their stories publicly. And I just think, you know, for those who can, I'm so incredibly grateful because, you know, it just helps us learn more, whether it's through our own traumas and to walk through it, you know, to be that roadmap, and just help also people support people in their life. So just truly, thank you.
Kyra Flatow 4:42
Yeah, thanks for having me. Um, my name is Cara fluido. I work as a CFO for a couple of different businesses. I'm located in Denver, Colorado, but I'm originally from a very small town in Montana. Important things that I always make sure People know about me. I am the mom of a tripod dog who's back here sleeping on my bed for those that can't actually see that isn't helpful. But I am a tripod dog mom, I'm an Enneagram. Three. I love Moscow Mules and white wine. And I always say that I speak a foreign language because I am very fluent in hockey. I'm obsessed with the NHL and the Colorado abs. So if I'm not working, you can find me parked on my couch watching maps. So that's a little bit about me. I, like I said, grew up in a very small town in Montana. It was less than 3000 people. NorthEastern corner, basically Canada. So if I say any words that you're like, are you Canadian? No, but basically, basically Canadian. So I grew up in a split household. I lived with my mother and my dad, who was actually my stepdad. But I don't think I've ever once in my life, called him my stepdad. My DNA dad has never really been involved in my life very much. But I am very involved with my grandparents and my aunt on that side of the family. And I have a younger sister, as well, who's seven years younger than me. So there's a bit of an age gap there, which was really fun when I was in high school. And she was at the age where she just like wanted to hang out with her sister all the time. My a little bit just like background information on the trauma that I bring to this conversation today. I was kidnapped and sexually assaulted by a ex boyfriend at the time, my junior year of high school. Actually, I was like graduation weekend for the seniors that year. And I was a junior. I was taken in the middle of the night from my house, and was taken to a wide open field behind our high school where I was assaulted in many ways. I then was put back in the car. And I thought I was getting taken home. And I made the comment that I can't believe I ever trusted you to him, which was when he slammed on the brakes turned around and drove even further out of town to our dump. And that was the moment that I really thought I was going to die that night that I was going to be left at the dump and that my father is a police officer. And I was fairly certain that one of my dad's officers would find me the next day whoever was working the day shift. And oh, we're getting there people.
Samantha Spittle 7:55
We can take a minute. Yeah.
Kyra Flatow 7:59
So that is a very harrowing experience in my life. I was not believed by very many people in my hometown. Even though I had bruises on my body of his, where his hands threw me up against the car or held me down. He was a preacher's son. So in our small town, there was a lot of not believing that he could ever do something like that he was an athlete, he was on scholarship and athletic scholarship in college. And there was just this sense of thinking that I was doing this for intention. A lot of people thought that and I ended up having to get a restraining order against him. And then a few months later, you did not had the restraining order. I went to take a friend home one night who was over at my house. And I came outside and he was outside of my house. It was probably like midnight, when I am my younger sister had spotted out the window, woke up my mother and called my father. And so he broke his broker's restraining order. And to this day, I still have no idea why he was outside of my house that night or what he wanted to do. I kind of like came around my mother's vehicle where he was standing on the other side of it. I asked him what he was doing. And he didn't say anything, and he just like took off running. And the reason they were able to find him that night actually is because someone in my small town noticed someone running through the cemetery which was very near my house. And like thought it was weird and like was like thought that they were maybe like fucking up the cemetery or something and so like call the police to be like someone's full Random cemetery, you know, small towns, everybody knows everybody's business. Everybody's calling the police for everything. And so that's actually how they were able to track his movements and ended up finding him that night. But yeah, so that happened in May of 2008. And I did not see a therapist or deal with this in any way, shape, or form, Intel would have been middle of 2017, I believe, is when I finally started therapy. So almost 10 years later, I did a lot of just pushing it down. And not believing part of it myself. Because so many other people didn't believe me. And so now I've been in therapy ever since and every week is a new journey in therapy of what I'm going to uncover and what things in my life are triggered by that experience and are triggered by by many, many more.
Samantha Spittle 11:11
Here, thank you so much for sharing. And I just thank you for trusting me to, to talk about this. And I'm so sorry, it happened to you. And I'm extremely sorry, no one believed you. And it just, I'm glad that we can talk about it today. Because I know that unfortunately, you're not alone. And I'm glad that you have embarked on your healing journey. And, you know, I think those first 10 years, were also a part of that too, you know, because it's survival mode, it's definitely doing what you need to,
Kyra Flatow 11:43
I don't think I would have got as much out of therapy, I started it right away. I'm definitely a giant proponent of therapy. And I think that everyone should be required to go to therapy. And even like, I know, there's people that might listen to this, and might think, like, oh, I don't have anything to talk to a therapist about. And then you get to a therapist, and you're like, oh, wait, I actually have so many things. So, so many things, the amount of like times I've gone to a therapy appointment, being like everything's going great, like I don't really know what we're going to talk about. And then I leave 60 minutes later sobbing because I've uncovered yet another part of my life that I need to explore and heal. And I don't like saying deal with. This is actually the thing that my current partner was so wonderful. And so loving, has taught me when we first got together, and I would have instances of trauma triggers or I also suffer from anxiety and depression, I have PTSD from my experience, which really affects my sleep, I have really bad nightmares. And I, if I dollar for every time my partner has had to like wake me up in the middle of the night, from screaming or thrashing or something like that, I would have no student loans. So that just tells you how many times that has happened. But at the very beginning of our relationship, I would overly apologize. And I do this in my life anyways, I think a lot of women do it in their lives. I would overly apologize about everything and be like, I'm so sorry, you have to deal with this. Sorry, you have to deal with me. So sorry, this is happening. And one of the times that I had said, I'm so sorry, you have to deal with this. I'm trying to work on it. He was like, I don't want to ever hear you say that I'm dealing with this again. Because that makes it sound like I don't want to be doing it. And that I don't want to be here for you. And I don't want to be showing up. And I don't want to help you get through what you're going through. I am choosing to be here and I am choosing to be with you and I'm choosing to hold you while you're going through all this terrible stuff and working on it and healing yourself and healing your body. And so I'm not dealing with it. I'm choosing it and I'm choosing you and so don't ever apologized for me having to deal with it. And that has really stuck with me. And so oftentimes when I'm going to be like I'm sorry, you're dealing with this, I'm like, oh, no, don't use that. Is that not dealing with? So? Yeah, that's a kind of a little less than that. I'm still trying to remember them. We're not dealing with things. We're just working on them and healing and getting better. And you know, it's not easy, like there's plenty of days where I cry because of how someone else's decision has affected my life and how I will never truly be here healed fully, I will never go back to what my life used to be. I recently met with a very recent sexual assault victim, which was very difficult. And I just had to have the conversation of like, there is no going back. There is two parts of your life there is before the trauma, and there's after the trauma, and you can't ever go back to the before. And you just have to learn how to make the after the best it can be. And that's, that was the main message I brought to her. And I was like, I hope you can look at me, as an example of someone who went through a really terrible sexual assault, but is still here, has a good job has a good life has a vibrant and healthy sex life has a great partner like I have all the things that you would not expect someone who went through what I went through to have. And I am very vocal on social media, about my trauma and about what's happened to me. Because I just want everyone to know that there is life after the trauma. And it's not always easy, but we just do our best every day.
Samantha Spittle 16:20
Definitely. And I mean that that pretty much sums up you know, I guess this whole conversation because it's these like life altering moments, you know, and sometimes I, one of my past guests on last month for trauma therapist, Tom Overton, he talked about how, you know, why would you deal with your trauma? Because he, we were talking with he and he and his wife, and she was sharing some of her stuff. And he said, essentially, he joked it was a leading question it he's like, essentially, it's that we want to work on the relationships in our life and our attachments. And if those are being if we want to improve them, you know, if we're not happy with them, or they're not healthy for us, then that might be something because I've had people asked me well, how do I know, you know, if I have something to work through, and you alluded to that or with therapy, and I think that, you know, hearing, you know, when we talk about trauma and things like that people if they don't know if they've had trauma, there's that fear of what if I uncover it, and then of course, for people carrying around trauma, and it being this thing that is kept in this dark place, you know, that is just shoved away, there's the fear of opening it up. And, you know, as you said, it's the work is hard, but it's worth it, and for the healing to come. And so when you said, like, I'm here to say, like, I went through this, and I'm living a full life now. And so I'm appreciate that for the for the hope. And so you went through this, and I feel like Okay, today's conversation will go in so many different directions. So in context of the shame series of sex, you know, we've talked about boundaries with our partners, you know, so for today's conversation, we'll kind of talk in the context of sex, because when you and I met before, I remember one thing you talked about was like, yeah, when you've had trauma, kind of screws up your sex life, you know, this thing that when we think of Sex in the City, I mean, we mean, probably, you know, people in their 35 Plus or whatever, if you watch Sex in the City, it's like, it's just sex is glamorous, glamorous, lovely, lovely. But we all have this baggage we carry around. And so kind of for today's context, you know, talking about how the trauma has shown up for you. And like I said, people may be experiencing this too, I just want to give a reminder to that. It doesn't mean you've had to have your trauma to have these experiences because trauma, another guest, you know, shared traumas, anything that happens that your body cannot process. And so, one thing with therapy, you know, you talked about going into a session, like, I don't even have anything to talk about that you leave in tears. I'm like, Yeah, guilty, guilty as charged. And I've found myself, you know, being crying about things, and then having this feeling of, well, this isn't that big of a deal. Like, I shouldn't even be upset over this. And thanks to the work of awesome therapists, and coaches, you know, it's validating, like, whatever your experience is, so,
Kyra Flatow 19:23
like, I don't share my story for people to feel bad for me, right. And I can't remember who I heard this from originally, but they were like, it's not the trauma Olympics. Like, we're not trying to win gold for the human that like, has the worst or the most trauma. Anyone can have trauma from a variety of things. Mine happens to be pretty large, pretty severe. But that doesn't mean that someone who lost their virginity earlier than they want to do doesn't have trauma. on that, or, you know, if a pet has died or a parent or who Yeah, any, any of those things are all trauma. And you don't have to have been kidnapped and assaulted to have trauma.
Samantha Spittle 20:13
Yeah. But sometimes that's unfortunate reality. And it is just the wealth just wrapped up as what it is. That's Yes. You know,
Kyra Flatow 20:23
yes, there's, there's no,
Samantha Spittle 20:26
validate it, but it's just, it's a lot. And, you know, that's an that. And I said earlier, you know, for me, it's like, having these moments with friends and seeing them go through the healing and thrive and then experiencing my own. It's like, I think giving people hope that like, if, you know, whether it is, you know, a similar story to yours or anything that like, you can come back from this like that, like you said, it's a new normal, so we're gonna jump into kind of the new normal. So, you know, let's start with kind of, like, how has this shown up kind of in your, in your life to kind of,
Kyra Flatow 21:06
specifically with like, romantic relationships, potential romantic relationships. I am, like I said, I'm very upfront about what happened to me, because I know that it affects my everyday life, and how I act and how I react. And so I can't tell you the amount of potential partners that I've, you know, met in real life met on dating apps, anything like that, I feel like everything's going great. And then I disclose this, I don't give my whole full out story to everyone. But those people that I feel like I could trust and talk to about it, I will otherwise I just kind of get a give a shortened version. And I can't tell you the amount of people that instantly are just like gone, and are no longer interested in me and are no longer wanting to pursue anything. And it has, it took a really long time for me to realize that that's not about me. And that's that they can't carry that and that they can't work through that in their own mind. And so that has happened plenty of times. But then it's also, you know, happened with individuals that I've been seeing for a plethora of time. Or individuals that I'm, you know, let's be honest, I've had plenty of one night stands in my life. If you have it, then you're not better than me, you just shows a different way of going about your sex life. That's how I feel. So you know, there's been plenty of one night encounters that have been fine and like no strings attached. Great. And it's very interesting. Like when I think about it right now, a lot of these triggers around my assault only have happened in instances of someone that I like, either I'm settled down with or like, I'm moving towards settling down. And I guess I've never noticed that before. That that's the time that these triggers come out. And if I had to guess which I have a therapy appointment tomorrow, thank goodness for this. If I had to guess it would probably be because I'm like starting to get into that comfortable, relaxed phase with them. Which is when my trauma happened. Yeah. Right. I was I had been in a relationship with this human for over two years. And we had recently a few months prior broken up. And so I think it's probably that I find myself getting into that position of like, oh, like, this is a human I really like settling down being with one human and then these triggers come up of my body being like, wait, hey, remember last time I did this. Remember, that was not a great idea didn't end very well. Still freaked out about it. And one time that I had, I don't have a lot of triggers in the bedroom necessarily. Like I haven't had a lot of instances where like, mid sex I'm like, Whoa, like freaking out. A lot of that happens like pre or post. And but one time it happened during it. I had been talking to this guy I was seeing about a mom trigger warning if you're listening cover your ears fast forward. Yes forward as far to the next bar mom and dad and sister. Thank you so much. Um, and we have been talking about how like I didn't really under or stand people's, like, enjoyment of oral sex. Just never been that exciting for me.
And he was like, Oh, I'm really good at it, right, like classic white man thinking he's really good at sex. Like, let's just say that Hello, patriarchy. Um, and so next time we were hooking up, he was like, I'm going to go down on you, it's going to be great. And I'm like, Okay, I will give it an open mind. So, he goes down on me, I get close to climax, and my body like, freaks. And so I tried to, like, push him away, and like, get, like squirm out of the situation, right? But instead of letting me get away, he just clamped down harder on my legs. And I couldn't get out. And I lost it, like, lost it. Because I was just instantly back in that field being held down, and like not being able to get away. I'm like, fairly petite human. Like, I'm 125 Five. I'm fairly easy to like, hold down. And I'm not very strong. Yeah, my sister is like a power lifter. Like, she's so strong and so powerful. And I'm just like, measly, can't do anything. And I just remember like, in that moment, like, my heart was like, I'm literally my heart started to race. I'm getting chills right now. Just thinking back about it of like, feeling that trapped feeling again. And I had slept with many people in between my assault and this instance. And that was the first time of like, being feeling like I was back and trapped. Yeah. And I, like, I remember just like really pushing him. And I'm, like, telling him like, stop, stop, stop. This is not okay. Like, I'm freaking out. And he finally did. And I like I was explained to him, right, like, I apologized, because story of my life again, apologizing all the time for my trauma. And, you know, I was like, I'm so sorry. Like, you didn't do anything. I just like, felt restricted and like, made me feel like I was back in that situation, which he knew about. Well, then he felt bad. Thank goodness. But instead of like, handling it in a great way, he just like ghosted me. Yeah. never talked to me again. And it was really hard. It was, that was a hard moment of me being like, I really liked this guy. But that's how he's gonna react to my trauma. Yeah. And like, not respect it and not, like, want to talk through it. Like that was a not great experience of when I've been triggered. And then it has me, shame spiraling about the fact that like, I am broken or like I'm not, I can never going to be able to like, find a partner that will sit with me through this. And it was really, really hard. And then I fast forward to the partner that I'm currently with. And when we first went on our like, we went on multiple dates. And the first like, week that we met, we got set up on a blind date by his sister in law. And I really liked him, but he wouldn't kiss me. And I'm like, am I being friends on what's happening here? I don't understand. And so then finally, like, week and a half week later, he finally late one night, I was like, falling asleep meant conversation. And he was like, he like asked, like, Can I kiss you? And I was like, Yeah, off. Yes. Finally, right. And then like, kissed him and fell asleep or whatever. And I remember bringing it up to him a long while after, and just being like, Oh, my God, you took forever to help me to like, kiss me. And he was like, Well, yeah, I didn't want you to feel pressured to like, I knew you had sexual trauma in your past and I didn't want you to feel pressured to have any sort of sexual relationship with me before you were ready.
Or I never like I just never want to put you in a position where you feel pressured, that you have to do something. And he's like, so I just wanted to like, wait it out and see but then you weren't making any moves either. So I just thought to go for it. I was like, Oh, I wasn't really thinking like you didn't really like me or like your friends only me, because you weren't kissing me. But like, really, you were just like, being a respectful human, and like taking my trauma into account and not wanting to trigger me or like, we're a little worried about what that would be like and didn't want it to happen. So that's like the two main instances of like, handling sexual trauma in very different manners by two different partners. And that was really interesting to think back on like, oh, one of these was a great idea. And one of these was not my greatest genius.
Samantha Spittle 30:45
Yes. But you know, and also, the thing is, you didn't know until you were in it, you know, like Ashley Grubbs, who we, you know, did another sex series episode with, she talked about communicating all of this stuff. She said, You have to talk about sex before you should have a sex.
Kyra Flatow 31:05
Yep. There's such a stigma, and a shame, put around the sex in general. And then as a human who has sexual trauma, not even just trauma, sexual trauma. I feel like there's this additional. I don't know if pressure is the right word, or shame is the right word. But there's this additional level of stuff around the bedroom. Yeah. And like, I remember, when I first was, like, wanting to maybe try some non vanilla, sex things in the bedroom. I was like, That sounds interesting. But I have sexual trauma. And I don't want to trigger it. So I don't even want to attend things. Yeah, like, I don't even want to see if I'm into that. Even though I think I probably am into that. Because I don't want to freak out mid sex again, like I have, and have my partner also freak out and ruin our sex life.
Samantha Spittle 32:14
So how did you go down that road? Because I talked before, one of my questions, kind of, not with trauma, but I think just because of our own sex stories and our own shame around sex, no matter what our history is, that if we have this shame, with sex, it's like doing anything. I love how you said it, like not vanilla, it feels like I know, for me, just having walking through, you know, sexual abuse and trauma. And, as you said, before sex being used as a way to control and manipulate and so I struggle personally with just this like, oh, like, just shut it all down. shut it all down. Yep, this is so broken. Let's just not even I don't even want to go there. Because everyone just not do this. Yeah. Yeah. But that's when my traumas starting to show up, you know, and so, you know, how did you start navigating that and work with your assault, trauma and all of that?
Kyra Flatow 33:13
Yeah. I mean, it's still something that I'm working on, right? Yeah. I had plenty of conversations with my therapist about it. And I think, in my head, I was like, Well, okay, this is gonna sound very blunt. And I don't know how else to say it. In my head, I had this thought of like, well, if I like rough sex, that's what rape is, right? Like, sometimes some people in the world see rape as just rough sex. She was asking for it. Whatever, right? And so I'm like, Well, if I like rough, rough sex, does that mean that I was asking for my rape, because that's what I like. Or like, that's, like, it's this weird situation of like, liking that. But also knowing that my assault was not
Samantha Spittle 34:20
what I liked. But that's exactly like, that's where it gets all jumbled up. And I think that's why, you know, it's just, I can't speak to your story, but just with so many things, it's like keeping it in a box because it's like, yeah, I don't want to if I if I step a foot here that could, yeah, just It's intense.
Kyra Flatow 34:41
And I just, I just always thought that I was gonna be in a relationship where I could never be sexually attracted to my partner, or would lose my sexual attraction after a little while. And because I I was broken. And right. And because I had this experience in my past and like, couldn't process couldn't deal with it couldn't whatever. And I've been in relationships where, like, after a few months, I'm no longer sexually attracted to this person. And like, do I love them? Do I care about them? Yes. Yeah. But I don't ever care about having sex with them again.
Samantha Spittle 35:24
And is that something you talked about with your therapy? Like, is that connected? Yeah, part of it?
Kyra Flatow 35:29
Yeah. Yeah, it's a, it's a very strange situation of like, a lot of people can lose their sexual intimacy drive. Yeah. And just be okay with it. And think that that's how they have to do life now. And I worked with my therapist a lot around the app, because I didn't want that to happen continuously. And that was when I really started digging into this idea of feeling like all I can offer is sex. And feeling like, that's the only thing keeping people around. And so it got to this point where I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. Like, I don't want to continually feel like I'm just here for sex, and not getting anything outside of the relationship. And like, I mean, because of my trauma. I am a very needy bitch, in terms of words of affirmation. Like, I need you to tell me you love me all the time, forever and every second, because I'm afraid you're gonna leave. And I'm afraid that I'm going to be alone. Yeah. And that's been a whole other interesting thing to have to figure out how to get from partners that aren't good at words of affirmation. And so that's what this at all boils down to is like, I was just giving sex skipping Thanksgiving, Thanksgiving sex, because that's how I thought I could make someone stay with me. And then when the person was going to stay, and I realized I didn't have to give this sex anymore. I was like, Oh, well, they're gonna stay. I don't have to give it anymore. And I was like it because I wasn't liking it in the first place. Yeah, I wasn't doing it for the right reasons doing it. You end up there? Extra Extra. Yeah, so I like wasn't doing it. for the right reasons. In the first place. I was doing it to try to, like almost think of it as like,
Samantha Spittle 37:46
well, it's like you're trying to keep yourself safe. Like you. You wanted them to stay. And so
Kyra Flatow 37:51
doing the things to get them to stay. I'm doing the things to get them to say, Yeah, then it was gone. And I was like, Okay, great. I don't have to do this anymore. And I never wanted to again, but then it had me being like, Oh, well, now I don't want to have sex with my partner who are like you're supposed to want to have sex with I'm like, I have no attraction or like intimacy with really? And would like be fine if we never had sex again. Even though by nature. I'm a very sexual human. And I've always liked sex. Yeah. And so that was a very weird conundrum have a lot of conversations in therapy?
Samantha Spittle 38:31
Was that the mote like Was there something that kind of helped you not? Well, I don't know how to set you know, the turning point at which you said, yeah, I really do want to dig into this with therapy. Was it around that kind of stuff for
Kyra Flatow 38:44
it wasn't around? Yeah. So it was kind of a plethora of things that led me to actually start therapy. So that was one of them. And I was actually engaged at the time to this human. And I had gone off to a event. And there was like a guy that was hitting on me. And I was like, wow, I want this man to take me on a date and take me home and right, like having all these thoughts. And so it brought them back to my partner at the time, and was like, hey, like, clearly something is not fitting here. Like, it's totally fine. And I'm not going to tell anyone that they can't like fantasize about another person. Because I'm not here to shame anyone sexually ever. But that was just a moment for me to be like, oh, something's not
Samantha Spittle 39:33
right. Right. It really awakened to that part of you. And so I
Kyra Flatow 39:37
was like, yes, it was very much like, oh, yeah, I am a sexual human being and like, Well, yeah, I do want this, like, why don't I want this at home? You are
Samantha Spittle 39:46
not the first person to have a feeling and whether it's a sexual related thing or not like and like I said, I'm not even talking about fantasies or anything. I'm just talking about like a, we'll call it a red ish flag because I would, I would almost say it's agree and flag because it was a sign of healing needing to happen. But you know, how often do we have those things, but then we push them back down. So were you know, what do you? What was it about that time that I really think it's the courage, like what gave you the courage to actually say, this is something I'm not going to keep just pushing this away?
Kyra Flatow 40:21
Why didn't to be fairly honest, I didn't want to go to therapy. Because, again, people went to therapy. And I have worked my entire life, I've worked my entire life, ask anyone that knows me very well, to seem very put together. And I've actually talked to my therapist about how weird it is that I am willing to show people my trauma and show people my grief and show people, the messy parts of my life on social media. But I want to seem put together all the time. And my therapist is like, well, you get to control the narrative. If you're the one putting it out, you get to control how people are seeing it, and looking at it and perceiving
Samantha Spittle 41:01
it, you are preaching to the choir, sister, you are preaching to the choir,
Kyra Flatow 41:05
it was wild. So I didn't want to go to therapy at all. I was like, No, thank you. Um, and my partner at the time was like, like, basically, in a nice, in a nice way, was like your follow up from the things that have happened in your life. You need to talk to someone. And I was like, no, no, no, now now. And he was like, No, seriously, like, shit is really wrong with you, and like, you need to go to therapy. And then me being the person I am was like, Well, if I need to go to therapy, you're asked me to go to therapy, right? I'm like, everybody's got therapy for everyone, I'm not gonna be able to I'm in therapy. And so I made him a promise that was like, if you go to therapy, I'll go therapy. And I remember showing up at my very first therapy appointment, sitting on the couch and telling my therapist at the time, I have a new one. Now, I'm telling my therapist, I don't know if I will come back next week. And she was like, that's fine. And I was like, I had to bribe myself to get here. I promised myself that I should, if I showed up, and I stayed the entire time, I could go get a Dutch Bros coffee. Like, alright, and that's what it was the first 234 or five months of therapy was me, bribing myself with things that I like, yeah, to show up, and to talk to this woman. And she was wonderful. And she was so good at her job. That's not always the case for people that look for therapists. So if you have a shitty therapist, find a new one friends, because there are great therapists out there. Yes, um, she was so great. And like, I just remember sitting in that first therapy appointment and being like, Well, I'm here to talk to you about my current relationship. And then her being like, Okay, tell me about it. And me like, talking about it. And then her being like, well, on your intake form, you also checked the box for, like sexual assault, and you check the box for like, parent issues, and you check the box or whatever, like, Tell me about that. And I was like, Oh, well, that's not why I'm here. I'm not here to talk to you about any of that. I'm here to talk to about my current relationship. Just just Yeah, yeah. I'm like, no, no, we're not that is behind the curtain in AWS. We're not looking behind the curtain bowl. I was like, no, no, I'm not here to talk to you about my abandonment issues with my dad, or my kidnapping and assault, or this or that, right. Like, I'm like, I don't want to talk to about my eating disorder, and my self harm. And my this my that when she was like, okay, yeah, we definitely don't have to talk about those things. And then I would talk about something in my relationship. And she's like, do you think that this could maybe be because of x, y, z, from my past, and I was like, I gotta open Pandora's box don't lie. And I just remember being in one of my therapy appointments and being like, I'm way more than I thought. I'm way more than I thought.
Samantha Spittle 44:05
Alright, speak to that. Because as we're going to wrap it up, I feel like we're opening a whole new box of worms, which is in a good way, in a good way, though. I think that's one of the biggest. I mean, I know for me here, I started a podcast to encourage people for healing and growth and all this stuff. But you know, I was doing it to help other people. Yeah, not yourself. Like, it's fine. Like I'm totally for you. It's free. Yeah, it's for everybody.
Kyra Flatow 44:34
I'm really great. You're welcome.
Samantha Spittle 44:36
Everyone else should go to therapy. But I worked out all my own stuff. Yeah. And so I'm totally
Kyra Flatow 44:44
journal.
Samantha Spittle 44:45
Yeah, I just, I talk to people and then I'm good. And then my husband started therapy and it was amazing. And I was like, No, I'm good. I have all these people. I work it out. And then I started therapy and I'm like, Oh, shit. This is why I've been saying, like, I knew I believed it. But now I actually believe it. But I'll be honest, you know, for me, there was that part. And like, this is where it's like, we're kind of segwaying. But it's a good, we got it we have to fit this in now, is, I think there's just this huge fear of, you know, if then we'll keep it on the sex topic. It's like, if someone is having some issues with sex in their marriage, it's like, but if I go to therapy, it might unlock something I don't remember, it might unlock something that I remember that I'm trying to forget. Or it might take me down Pandora's box, or we might open Pandora's box. And so that is something that I did not vocalize to people. But that I knew internally for me was like, I and I mean, I did say this to my husband and my close friends, as I said, you know, I am keeping my shit together. It is like, I've got it, like you said, I'm controlling the narrative that there is, yes, it's like, the floodgates could open.
Kyra Flatow 46:00
Oh, boy, do they open.
Samantha Spittle 46:03
And so but it's like, now I'm seeing, Oh, my gosh, though, like, you know, my husband, I talk a lot about, like, I would not go back to like the marriage we had before, like, I would much rather have, even though with our trauma and all of our shit. It's like, okay, this is really hard, and I would never have chosen it. But thank God for the healing that comes from all of it. So, I mean, that's my personal take on it. But for you, with you with your background. You know, for people that are kind of on that edge,
Kyra Flatow 46:32
like I said earlier, it's really hard. And I sat in so many therapy appointments. And then I would go in, I would sit in my car, and I would cry for another 20 minutes. So I could get it together enough to like actually drive home. And I just remember so many times sitting in my car being like, added to the list. Add that to the list of things I'm about, or things I'm whatever about are things that I thought were fine that are apparently not fine. And I just remember thinking, I'm insane. I'm crazy. I'm this I'm not. I'm like, I am so much more broken than I ever thought I was. Because I had just shoved and shoved and jumped and jumped and jumped and jumped and jumped. And it was almost like, I think therapy now kind of is almost like a pressure valve. Like I was this pressure cooker, shoving everything in and putting the lid on. And it was intense. And it was intense. And occasionally I'd have a blow up and I would fall down. And then it would build back up again, I would build that back up. And now I have therapy where I get to go and like open the pressure bow a bit. And it led to the pressure in a nice and calm way. And then I get to come back to my partner and be like, well, therapy today I talked about this or like there'll be a doctor about that. And one of the things that was hardest for me in therapy was talking about my assault, and talking about how even after it happened, I cared so much about this individual that I didn't tell the truth about all the things that happened. Like I have these vivid vivid memories of things that happened during that night. And I actually have a third word is now but my dad's a police officer, like I mentioned earlier, and so I got home that night, I was too afraid to go into my own house, I went next door. My neighbor at the time, was a bartender she had just gotten home. And I saw her light was on and I went over and I knocked on her door. And she let me in. I was in like a T shirt and shorts. It was the middle of Montana in May, like still cold. And I remember her coming home and waking up my parents. And right away that night my dad gave me a piece of paper and was like, I need you to write down everything that happened tonight. Even if it was a cuss word, or a bad thing or whatever, I need you to write it all down. So just get out whatever you can. And so years later in therapy, my therapist was like, Do you think you could get a copy of that? Because I remember sitting in the chair writing this down? Yeah. And I remember hearing someone come into my house. I'm fairly certain my dad had called one of the officers on duty. I remember someone coming into my house I like can hear it in my peripheral. But I just remember like writing this note and sitting in this chair. And my therapist was like, could you get that? Like I think we should look at it. And so we got it and I read it and there's so much shit that's not in And so then I started being like, Am I crazy? Yes. Did I make this up? Like, what? And, and my, I had to work a lot with my therapists on like, you were protecting him by not including things in the note. And you were still doing that. And it was wild. I mean, like, days later, my parents are like handling all the things for the, the restraint and stuff, but you want to talk about shame around sex. My parents found out I was having sex, because they needed to know whether or not I had had sex prior to figure out what they could charge him with. So I remember sitting in my computer lab at my high school, getting a text from my mom that said, have you and this human had sex before?
And I never answered, I just did like, didn't text back. And because I was so embarrassed, like, yeah, I don't want my parents to know that I'm having sex like, well, right. And then she responded A little while later and just said, I'll take that as a yes. So like, that's how my parents found out, I was a sexually active human. So like, you want to talk about shame around sex. That right there was like how they found out and I was like, incredibly embarrassed. Yeah. And it just like, therapy will uncover things that you don't think are a problem. But without it without there be I know, I can say without a doubt, I would not be able to be in as healthy of a relationship as I'm in now, I would not be able to have as healthy of a sex life as I have. Now, I would not be able to have as healthy of a body image as I do now. I mean, that's not to say that I'm perfect at it every day. Yeah, like, I still have plenty of days where I'm like, Oh, I'm real depressed. Today. I call my depression. Pam. This is a thing my therapist had me do was to name my depressive thoughts. And I was like, I'm not schizophrenic. What are you talking about? Right? Like, I'm not going to do this. And she was like, No, I think it will really help you realize that like you are not your depression. Yes. And it's a it's a separate thing. And so I named mine, Pam, which is really funny, because the only Pam I know is like my high school, middle school crushes mom. And she's like, the most precious human of my entire life. So I don't know why that was the name. But it's been a great cool now too, like, on days where I'm really depressed. I can tell my partner like, hey, Pam is here today. Right? Like, Pam is here. And then he knows that. Oh, her, her brain has been roaming. And I need to say extra nice things. Or I need to tell Pam to get lost because she's not telling the truth right now. Yeah. Like Pam does her best Pam like is trying to keep me safe. She's just like, doing it in a not great way. Yeah. And that's all the things that I've had to work on and work through and, and that's just like, on top of all the shame and stigma and like, sexual tension and trauma around my assault and still wanting to be a sexual human being.
Samantha Spittle 53:25
Yeah. And you said a few times, you know, how you're still working on it. And one thing I've learned through these conversations, too, is that it never stopped. It doesn't matter whether you're in a new relationship, or a two years, in 20 years, in 50 years in I mean, it's like, this is constantly going to be talking about and I think the other overwhelming thing I heard from you is that, you know, with all this sex stuff, we'll just call it is the other you know, it's in our conversation and other conversations is communication, like and it just has, it's such a thing that is not normalized, you know, of course, it's like, yes, fast forward through these parts that we're talking about. It's awkward,
Kyra Flatow 54:04
like hell,
Samantha Spittle 54:07
which is why, you know, don't worry people listening, not everyone needs to talk about it publicly. But I'm just normalizing the conversations and being able to talk about these things, you know, and especially with our partners and safe people and so I just appreciate you sharing, you know, your story and your journey. And I'm I love that you have able, you know, been able to just of course find happiness in your life and show that it's, you know, the theme I feel like that's should be the new podcast thing. It's like the work is hard, but it's worth it flick should be a tagline. So, as we close out, is there anything you would want to share that, you know, we didn't touch on today that you would want people to know?
Kyra Flatow 54:49
I think in terms of the talk about sex and shame and triggers and all these things good Sex can't happen until you learn to love yourself. And until you learn what your body likes and what your body doesn't like. And that is not a shameful thing. And I think, I don't know the demographics of who listens to this podcast. But I think a lot of time as women, or non binary individuals, we are taught that our sex and our pleasure is not important. And we're taught by society that it's a man's pleasure is the most important thing. And that's not true. It's not true. We're just as important. And let's be honest, I think a lot of households would fall apart if we weren't holding them together. And so you deserve to have love and be loved the way that you want to. And if that means having uncomfortable conversations, then you need to do it. And those conversations will get easier over time. And talk to your kids about sex, even if you don't want to talk to your kids about what's okay what's not okay with their bodies with someone else's body. Don't just think someone else will teach them because that someone else will be porn on the internet that then doesn't always teach the best messages. So that's, that's, I think the things that I would love people to take out of this. If you're listening and you've gone through something similar, or you need someone to talk to, you can find me on social media. My Instagram handle, I need to double check it so I don't tell you the wrong thing is K Flato FMLA to w 09. Feel free to send me a DM and I am here to tell you that you are not dealing with it. You are learning you are growing and that there is happiness on the other side somewhere you just have to find it.
Samantha Spittle 57:11
Beautiful, amazing. Kira, thank you so much. You shared so many good truths. And I just thank you for your story. And I'm so glad to be connected and to know you and you're amazing.
Kyra Flatow 57:23
You're so very welcome. Thank you so much for having me.