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Hosted by Bill Eddy, LCSW, Esq. and Megan Hunter, MBA, It’s All Your Fault! High Conflict People explores the five types of people who can ruin your life—people with high conflict personalities and how they weave themselves into our lives in romance, at work, next door, at school, places of worship, and just about everywhere, causing chaos, exhaustion, and dread for everyone else.
They are the most difficult of difficult people — some would say they’re toxic. Without them, tv shows, movies, and the news would be boring, but who wants to live that way in your own life!
Have you ever wanted to know what drives them to act this way?
In the It’s All Your Fault podcast, we’ll take you behind the scenes to understand what’s happening in the brain and illuminates why we pick HCPs as life partners, why we hire them, and how we can handle interactions and relationships with them. We break down everything you ever wanted to know about people with the 5 high conflict personality types: narcissistic, borderline, histrionic, antisocial/sociopath, and paranoid.
And we’ll give you tips on how to spot them and how to deal with them.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to, it's All Your Fault On True Story fm, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and influence the most challenging human interactions, those involving patterns of high conflict behavior. I'm Megan Hunter and I'm here with my co-host, bill Eddie.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hi everybody.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California where we focus on training, consulting, and educational programs and methods all to do with high conflict. So welcome back. It's 2024, our first episode of the new season, and in this episode we're going to talk about something that people struggle with a lot. And I have to admit, I even struggle with this when I am teaching about setting limits, and that's the topic, setting limits in high conflict situations. But first, a couple of notes. Send your high conflict related questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or on our website@highconflictinstitute.com slash podcast where you'll also find all the show notes and links.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
All right, so let's get right to it, bill. We've gone through some holidays recently. We're into a new year. We all want to think that new year, everything's going to be fresh, everyone's going to get along. And then the reality sets in that some of the same hard things are happening and we're maybe falling into some of the same old patterns that we had in the past. And one of those seems to be how to set limits in high conflict situations. And as I said, I even struggle sometimes teaching this concept because you really have to have a real life example to explain it properly, and it's often much different than people think. So why don't we start with, and we'll talk about a lot of different areas where we have to set limits or a few areas, and one of them, let's start with co-parenting after during divorce. What are some limits or ways to set boundaries in that space?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
I think the first thing is to try to have some standards and to look for standards. I was asked to write an article for A FCC Association of Family and Conciliation Courts, and they came up with a dozen kind of standard boundaries for separating and divorced couples. And so I think it helps to find a standard to work from, especially if you're going through something that a lot of other people have gone through. And of course the beginning of the year is when a lot of people figure out, well, we are probably going to have to separate and get divorced for the sake of ourselves, for the sake of the sake of peace, for the sake of whatever's happened that people feel like they need to put some more space between them and their partner who was a former partner but continues to be a co-parent.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
So I would start with finding out what are some good standards and then communicating about those. For example, when I think about divorcing and separating parties, the first thing is to really think about the children because it's easy for parents to argue about, well, I want things this way and I want things that way. But to think about what really will help provide stability for the children will help keep them out of conflicts. Just keeping that in mind. Discussions about separating, divorcing, et cetera. Have boundaries with that. Don't talk about certain things in front of the kids. Don't talk when you're exchanging the children, but it's good to kind of agree on those and then follow through. So let's say you're exchanging the kids and one of you starts saying, the child support check was late last week and you need to really put that in your calendar to get it to me on time.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
And the other person goes, don't talk about that. Remember, we're not supposed to talk in front of the kids about that stuff. And then the other person, oh, you're right. Alright, let's save that and then do that themselves either through email or a phone call or whatever. So either parent can catch and say, wait, we're not supposed to talk about this right now. And have an agreement that as soon as someone reminds you of that, that you'll both stop the conversation. So I think setting boundaries in many different areas, I've got a dozen different areas here for separating, but I think one of the most important is protecting the children in your decisions and also in your discussions.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
So I'm looking at this article you've written and you have 12 tips here, and the first one is it's all about the children. And it is, I think when that conversation comes up about the child, I didn't get the child support check. Oh, I don't think we should talk about this in front of the children. There's your limit. You're setting that limit telling them what I'm not going to do. I'm not going to talk about this in front of the children. And then they continue, the other person continues to talk about it. I think that's where people get stuck a lot. So what do you do then?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
You can't control the other person's. Like it's not going to help to say, look, shut up about the check. I'll get it on time. I'll talk to you later. Don't tell the other person what to say, what I'm going to do. Okay, then I'm going to need to stop the conversation. So I'm going to go, I've got the kids head to the car and take off. So what I'm going to do is what's so important. That's the thing you have control over and you can implement because people get so frustrated, they try to make other people change. You can't control other people. You may be able to influence them and setting a limit hopefully will influence them. But if it doesn't, then you pull the plug on your part of the conversation and walk away or hang up or whatever you need to do. That's what you have control over.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
So then let me throw one more arrow in this. Let's say there may be a fear of maybe some domestic violence there or there may be a actual, it may have happened in the past or may not have, but you're afraid that it could. And so at that point, just walking away, I think a lot of people either capitulate there or they give in some way or they're afraid to set that limit. So how do we set a limit in that context of fear? If
Speaker 2 (07:01):
That fear is there, you may need a whole bigger limit on the whole relationship. So that's where you talk to a lawyer about restraining orders and in family law and separation and divorce, there's some standard restraining orders when there's a need and a judge has to order this, but that they stay a hundred yards away from each other physically, that they don't have direct contact with each other, they have to go through lawyers. So those kinds of things, if there's really a fear, that's often what needs to be done. And a huge part of family court decisions these days are about restraining orders. So if someone has fear, they can go and seek a restraining order and if they have recent incidents or recent threats, generally they'll be able to get those kind of restraining orders. So that's a big, big limit. But I think maybe in a way what you're talking about is where there isn't a restraining order and maybe there has been some incidents in the past, so the person has some fear, but they're not consumed by that and they want to see if they can manage the situation.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
This happens way more than is reported.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yes. And many people don't have restraining orders and they try to cope without them, but I think do what you have to do to end that conversation. And it may be going, sure, fine, I'll get you the check on time. I'll make a note of that. Goodbye. We got to go now. So
Speaker 1 (08:35):
That's okay to say that as a strategy really if you have to
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Answer the question, but then figure out how can we avoid this in the future?
Speaker 1 (08:45):
So you're keeping the conflict small in that moment.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
I've heard of that. I like that.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
I think that might've come from you, bill. So I've been using it a lot lately.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
It's definitely recently. It's become a really useful phrase because people are so quick to escalate conflicts today, and that's in every aspect of life. People really don't know where the boundaries are today. And so they argue about the boundaries, but in many ways it's focusing, keep it small, focus on what's most important, what do I really need here? And to peacefully end a conversation and move along. And that's why a lot of people agree to have exchanges where they don't even see each other at the school. So it's Thursday afternoon, now it's dad's time. Mom brought the kids in the morning, dad's going to pick up the kids in the afternoon, they won't see each other. And that's an important kind of boundary. And the kids are so relieved. I mean, kids are very sensitive to their parents being in conflict, their whole universe. And if their universe is earthquake, they don't know where they're going to land and whether they'll be safe or not.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
So if we apply this then to the work world, we have to set limits everywhere in life. So whether it's in a family at work, in the neighborhood or whatever, the co-parenting matter, your first tip is it's about the children in the workplace. It's about the job. If someone's in a high conflict situation at work and you just feel really stuck and you need to set limits, but you're afraid to, it's typically because you're afraid to lose your job or you're going to get looked at as the problem. Yeah. So how do you set limits?
Speaker 2 (10:34):
It depends really on the situation. But a general principle is, again, what can you do? A lot of it is ending conversations. And so much of work today is email conversations. And that's where I would recommend using our Biff method because Biff is brief, informative, friendly, and firm, and it saves a lot of time and stress. So I think you can do Biff, even if the other person, and so someone sends you two pages saying your project is behind, you're incompetent, you're doing everything wrong. I'm going to tell the world you don't know what you're doing. And it's all to try to get you to give them something that deliver something at a certain time. So you can say, thanks for letting me know your concerns in your email, and the delivery will come on a Friday afternoon this week, have a good weekend, something like that. So you keep it small and brief and you don't feed the conflict because that's where people get, they feel like they have to persuade the other person or something. And if somebody has a pattern of high conflict, it's like part of their personality, you're not going to persuade them of anything. So what you want to do is just deal with the issue right at hand and then be done with
Speaker 1 (12:04):
It. And it's so empowering when you do it. And I think the first place that our minds go to is, well, I need to report this to my manager. This person isn't doing their job properly or they're causing a lot of trouble. And I just feel really intimidated to go say anything about it. In some cases, we're not saying it's not appropriate to report things when they're going wrong. Maybe the job is being done poorly or whatever, but I think there's so much that you can do in your own space, but we're very afraid to do that. We walk on eggshells around it, and I can tell you it's the most empowering thing in the world to just tell people what you're going to do. It is the absolute way to live your life.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Yeah, you have control over yourself, control over your own life, and frankly, people respect you more if they see that you can restrain yourself from engaging in an unnecessary conflict. So many of today's conflicts are unnecessary, but people don't realize to focus on their part and they're busy focusing on other people's part. And of course, that's where I'll put in one of my digs that I think modern media has a lot of finger pointing and people think, oh, that's what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to call people out and you're supposed to point out their error in their ways. Well, that's entertainment, that's drama, real life. That really doesn't work that well. And you got to go, okay, I'm going to end this conversation and take care of myself and the problem's solved. Now you can move on to doing something else. Now, there are times when you need to go to somebody to higher ups, go to human resources report bullying or harassment, but you have to choose your battles.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Decide is this at the level where I need to go to do this? Or is this something that I can just manage on my own? So that's another saying. We're talking about keep the conflict small. Another is choose your battles. I think over the years we've developed a lot of these little sayings, and I have to tell you, they just keep popping into my mind because they're simple and easy to say. And it reminds me when I worked in chemical dependency treatment and AA and NA had all these sayings one day at a time, keep it simple, stuff like that. And they really were onto something with simple memorable phrases. So with high conflict, these are couple of your simple memorable phrases.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
We should probably publish a book with all the little phrases, but let's take a break first and we'll come back. And then I want to talk about setting limits when you aren't sure whether someone is telling the truth or lying.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Okay, we're back and we are going to talk about setting limits when you're not sure whether maybe an allegation is true or false or someone's lying to you or not. And we see this happening in families, we see it everywhere. And I want to mention here too that because setting limits is a little bit opposite of what we're used to doing or a lot opposite. It does take some practice, and that's why we have the live lab through our website where we do one-on-one or one to group coaching on how to learn to set limits in your particular situation until you get really practiced at it. So that's available anyway, let's get back to line. So let's say Bill, that someone in your life is they're saying things to you and you're just not sure if it's truthful or not. I think most people are a little bit afraid to just get stuck and don't know what to say. And because we don't want to accuse someone of lying. So do we reality test? If so, how do we do that? Do we outright tell someone that we think they're lying? How do we set that limit? Well, I
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Think there's a range of possibilities here depending on your relationship with the person. As a lawyer, I've had people say this, well, you don't know how to do the child support calculations. You don't understand that program or something. So let's say somebody says that. So I'm thinking, well, now I'm upset with Joe. And then I think, well, wait a minute, Joe might not have ever said that it may be a lie. The person talking to me is telling me Joe told them that to get me upset with Joe. And so this is not totally uncommon. That's
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Very, very common. And that's exactly where I was going with this question. Yeah,
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yeah. So depending if that's a stranger or I might tell myself, now remember, you have to have three theories. Whenever somebody tells you somebody else is acting badly. So if they're telling me Joe is saying this, then I have to consider, well, maybe Joe is saying this, then have to consider, maybe Joe's not saying this at all. He is totally innocent and the person talking to me is lying. And the third possibility is maybe there's something vague here that maybe Joe did imply something or said something that's a little bit inaccurate or out of bounds so that there's a possibility both people are doing something. So that's the three theories
Speaker 1 (17:40):
On that third piece. It could be what I've seen is two completely different perceptions about the same thing, and they're accusing each other of lying or that, and it can go down a bad path.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
You may have the same phrase and two people interpret it differently. One person said, I said that as a joke, that's ridiculous. I didn't say that seriously. And the other person may have said, well, I totally took it seriously. So that's that kind of gray area where there may be contributions by both people. So it may be one, maybe the other, maybe somewhat both. And I believe now, and I'm just really reinforcing this, you got to have these three theories. When people tell you, somebody's acting badly, we see this so much. I see this a lot in family court where there's probably more lying than any other place in the world probably. And figuring out who's telling the truth and who's lying isn't obvious on the surface. You got to dig deeper. And so it really helps to have these three theories so that you don't get stuck in, I've got to argue or yell at this person is first telling yourself, so actually this was my first option.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
The second is telling the person something but not confronting them. So saying, huh, that's surprising that Joe would say that since I've been doing child support calculations for 30 years, that's like information, that's a brief, informative, friendly, and firm information so that you don't get an argument about it. You just state the reality from your point of view. And another level might be saying, well, this is a problem because I really doubt that Joe would've said that. And I'm not sure why you're saying what you're saying, but you have to have a relationship. Maybe this is a family member, maybe this is your brother or sister. And you say, whoa, wait a minute. I really don't think Joe would say that. Are you sure? What was his exact words? Let's call up Joe and just straighten this out right now. So I think you have at least three options. One is just run it through your own brain so you don't get real upset about it, that it could be true, might not be true and might be fuzzy. And then to say, I doubt that, and here's some information you may not have. And then the third would be to confront it. But you got to have a good relationship for that to be productive.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
If you tell someone, Hey, you need to own this, right? It's common terminology these days. Own your stuff, you didn't own it. And so if you say to someone, you really need to own shore up to your responsibility, take accountability here. It really does depend on the level of your relationship because you say that to someone at work who you don't have that level of bond or relationship, it's probably going to make you the target of blame. And it's really hard to get unwound from that
Speaker 2 (20:52):
And becoming a target of blame often happens when you emotionally react and it looks inappropriate. And so if you think someone's lying to you is figure out one of these three responses. But I think it's important not to get it really emotional about it because then you look like you're the jerk. You're the person who's out of control, and maybe it looks like you're defensive because it's true. And when you get defensive with somebody from the outside, it looks like you're defending against reality. And so, see, you're so upset because I'm right.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Yeah, that's such a tricky area, and I know I've overreacted when I've been just finally had it right, and you just kind of emotionally respond. And I've seen it go two ways. One, the other people around you that if there are other people, they're silently clapping. Wow, somebody's standing up to this person finally. So they might understand it, but you still can become the target of blame. That individual may go tell other people, wow, Megan really overreacted and she's just horrible and she's high conflict. And then people believe that because you have responded emotionally, which by the way listeners, you have to know that it is pretty common to overreact outside your norm when you're involved in a high conflict situation.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Yes, I think part of it, especially in the workplace, is knowing who to be cautious with and who to not react to and just not engaging. And that's another one of our sayings is don't engage. Because when you engage with someone with a pattern of high conflict behavior, it's like quicksand, you can't get yourself out. They're not going to stop themselves. And if you don't stop yourself, it just escalates downward. So you have to kind of know who to get into an argument or discussion within who to cut it short and go, okay, fine. For now we're going to end this conversation. It's partly figuring out what other people's patterns of behavior are or personalities. I mean, that's what a personality is, is a pattern of behavior. So if you have someone with a pattern of high conflict behavior, we often think of them as having a high conflict personality or being a high conflict person.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
But the main thing is to thing about behavior and your own behavior. So that's really setting a limit here and doing your own research is something true or isn't it? If this person tells me, Joe said this, you can bet I'm going to be talking to Joe and say, Hey, Joe, I'm sure about this, but somebody told me you said, I don't know how to calculate child support numbers, and do you remember saying something like that? And Joe says, oh, you know what? I didn't say that about you, but I said, I don't know if you have the new program for this year because they've updated the program. So I don't know if you're familiar with the new Child Support guideline program. Oh, so you said that, and maybe they interpreted that as you saying, I don't know what I'm doing. So that might be that third scenario where it's kind of muddy because somebody did say something, but it's been misinterpreted. But within yourself, if we're talking about setting limits, is you've got to set limits on how upset you get about these things without getting more information,
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Just staying matter of fact and keeping an open mind and really sticking to the structure of the three theories of the matter, and always challenging your own brain, which will influence your own behaviors and how you respond.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Yes. Let me add something there that's important. I've been saying a lot lately, and that is I don't trust what anybody tells me to be a hundred percent true, even myself, because I never know my own brain is playing tricks on me. Our brain is very efficient and jumps to a lot of conclusions, which gets us through life. You couldn't possibly think in depth about everything, so you jump to conclusions about a lot of stuff. We can't just assume that all the thoughts we have are accurate. So I don't believe anybody more than 95%, and to me, that means it's worth checking things out and checking ourselves besides checking out what other people say.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Nice. Alright, well, we only made it through one example of the 12 tips. We'll come back to those in other podcasts. But the article for those who would like to read it, top 12 Tips for Co-Parent Boundaries written by Bill Eddie for the A FCC newsletter will be in the show notes and links along with a link to the live lab and some other articles and things.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
We hope this has been helpful. Next week we'll talk about relationship violence. We'll be talking about our book Dating Radar, and something that's a little bit tricky, which is Teen Dating Violence, I think bigger than it ever has been. So it'll be a big topic. And if you're a listener that's not really associated with something like dating violence, but you're in the workplace, it's probably good for you to hear about this because this kind of topic does bleed into the workplace sometimes and other areas. So in the meantime, send your questions to podcasts@highconflictinstitute.com or submit them to high conflict institute.com/podcast. We'd love you if you'd give us a review wherever you listen to your podcast. Until next time, keep learning and practicing these skills. Be kind to yourself and kind to others while we all try to find the missing piece. It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music, by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Ziv Moran. Find the show notes and transcripts at True Story fm or high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.