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with Ben Evans
In this Earth Day episode of Reframe, show host Jeff Nichols sits down with Ben Evans, Federal Legislative Director at the U.S. Green Building Council (USGBC), for a wide-ranging conversation about green building policy, the shifting political landscape, and where advocates of efficiency find hope amid significant headwinds. Ben's path to sustainability advocacy is anything but conventional. Starting as a local government reporter in North Carolina, he eventually landed in Washington covering energy policy for Congressional Quarterly, and the last 5 years at USGBC.
A central theme of the discussion is the underappreciated power of energy efficiency. Ben highlights a striking reality: massive gains in energy savings are often invisible, quietly embedded into how systems operate. Unlike large-scale generation projects, efficiency doesn’t announce itself—it compounds over time.
He points to programs like ENERGY STAR, which is perhaps the episode's most staggering highlight—ENERGY STAR costs roughly $35 million per year to operate, yet saves consumers an estimated $42 billion annually while reducing U.S. electricity demand by 520 billion kilowatt hours per year—nearly equivalent to the entire U.S. coal industry's output. Ben concedes that its impact is largely invisible, making it chronically undervalued politically.
Another key insight is the concept of decoupling growth from consumption. Technological innovation—whether through better software, smarter devices, or improved design has enabled economies to grow without proportional increases in energy use. This challenges the long-standing assumption that economic expansion must come with rising resource demand.
The conversation also explores the role of technology as an enabler of efficiency at scale. From data analytics to automation, modern tools allow for optimization across buildings, grids, and entire industries. However, he cautions that technology alone isn’t enough. Real progress requires alignment between policy, incentives, and human behavior.
Ben underscores a recurring tension in climate and energy discussions: the tendency to focus on big, visible solutions—like renewable energy infrastructure, while overlooking the quieter, distributed gains from efficiency. He reframes this imbalance, suggesting that the energy transition is not a single breakthrough moment, but a series of incremental, compounding improvements.
However, Ben doesn’t downplay the challenges. Scaling efficiency requires coordination across industries, regulatory frameworks that reward long-term outcomes, and a cultural shift in how we value resource use. Yet, his outlook remains pragmatic and optimistic.
Ben leaves us with a hopeful but grounded perspective: that efficiency is a hidden powerhouse. The tools to drive meaningful change already exist—we simply need to recognize and scale them. The future of energy sustainability won’t be defined by a single breakthrough, but by millions of smarter decisions layered over time.
The Reframe podcast is hosted by Jeff Nichols and presented by Pilotlight. If you have questions or feedback for the Reframe team, please email us: reframe@pilotlight.ai
Creators and Guests
Host
What is Reframe?
Reframe is the podcast about building sustainability.
Commercial and public buildings are among the biggest producers of carbon emissions. It’s a problem of massive scale. But, for building owners, engineers and contractors, solving it may actually be more of an opportunity than a challenge. That’s what the “Reframe” podcast is all about. Join host Jeff Nichols on an exploration of the forces driving sustainability in our built environment. And meet the people who are leading the charge.
Reframe Ep17 - Ben Evans
Ben: [00:00:00] You know the problem with energy efficiency writ large is that it's invisible and no one really sees it, and so it's just not valued as it should be. If there were some way to really visualize that and everybody could see how much money they're saving every day as a result of Energy Star, no one would be proposing to throw it overboard.
I'll say that.
Jeff: A US government program spends about 35 million a year and yet saves Americans 42 billion. That's 127000% return, four times better than Apple stock performed over the last 20 years, and most people have never heard of it. That's today's theme. The biggest climate winds are the ones you can't see. They're in the walls.
They're in the HVAC. [00:01:00] They're in the decisions made by mechanical contractors and building owners who never make the news. I'm Jeff Nichols, and this is Reframe the podcast about the work that's actually moving the built environment forward. My guest today is Ben Evans, federal legislative director at the US Green Building Council.
Ben has spent his career where policy meets industry, and I'm looking forward to his insights. Ben, welcome to Reframe.
Ben: Thank you for having me, Jeff. Glad to be here.
Jeff: I'm thrilled to have you on the show. Why don't you explain a little bit what do you do at the Green Building Council and, and I think most people may not be super familiar with, you know, the organization's name, but certainly a lot of the programs that you guys drive, I think they will have some familiarity with.
So tell us a little bit about the Green Building Council and your role.
Ben: Yes, I am the federal legislative director at the U-S-G-B-C, and that that means that I lead our federal advocacy work effectively. And you know, you're right. A lot of people [00:02:00] think the US Green Building Council is a government agency sometimes, or, or semi-public organization.
We are a nonprofit, a, a mission driven nonprofit organization in our. Uh, really what people know us by, as you suggested is, is the Lead Green Building Certification, which is the leading green building certification in the world. And this was U-S-G-B-C was. Formed in the early nineties and lead was, uh, first put out into the, to the world in, uh, 1998.
And it has really made its mark and had a huge impact on the real estate sector, not just in the United States, but, but around the world. We have more than 200,000. Projects, uh, around the world, almost 200 countries, uh, have lead, uh, certified projects. Um, it's something like 130 billion square feet of space Lead has, has really in a lot of ways changed the way the, the real estate market goes about, uh, sustainability.
Um, and obviously that what sustainability means has evolved over the [00:03:00] years. But one of the things I really like about LEAD is that is a, it is a holistic green building standard. So. I think sometimes we all get caught up on, for example, uh, you know, I think in the Biden years on sort of energy related carbon and, and just the energy related carbon emissions, and we gotta do everything we can about that.
But when you really look at the impacts that a building has, the impacts on transportation, the impacts on water consumption, impacts on land use and, and siting, um, you know, all of those have have. Incredible, you know, impact on sustainability overall, but also on carbon emission. I mean, just, you know, treating and pumping water.
The energy water nexus, there's an incredible amount of energy that's used in that. So if you're reducing your, your water consumption, your, your, you know, you're, you're addressing carbon emissions, you. You know, your location, whether you're close to mass transit or it's, it's, you know, walkable or bikeable.
I mean, those things that, those kinds of systemic things have huge impacts on how much [00:04:00] carbon we end up, uh, putting into the atmosphere. And so, I, I, you know, I'm really, you know. Proud that, that we have a holistic rating system that that holds building owners accountable. And I, and, and that's really what lead does.
It does, it does a couple of things. It, it, a, it holds building owners, it prevents greenwashing. So, you know, you're, if you're gonna say you're a green building or a sustainable building, well, here is a, a very well respected, um, you know. A metric or certification system that is developed through a very deliberative, straight stakeholder process that will measure just how sustainable you actually are.
Um, and then, you know, the, the other thing it does is it rewards sustainability, it rewards those who are doing the right thing. It recog, you know, it provides a, a, a way to recognize those who are doing the right things and, and that. Those two things are really critical for the market because as you know, we have investors all over the globe looking for sustainability and re, re real estate.
They do not want to invest in projects that are going [00:05:00] to be out of date, you know, brown discount. All of these things that are, that are gonna be at risk, um, whether it's risk of not being able to get insurance, uh, at risk of, of higher insurance costs, higher operating costs, all of the things resale price, all of the things that go into a green building.
So then, you know, lead really enables, it's a tool that enables those investors to evaluate, um, real estate projects, uh, in a, in a, in a credible way and in a, in a more standardized way.
Jeff: That's one of the things I think LEAD has a lot of credibility because you can't, you can't fake it. Uh, you really do have to, um, to prove it.
But before we, before we dive in, um. You know, deeper, you know, being the federal legislative director, you know, what a tale of two cities to go from the Biden administration to the Trump administration. So definitely wanna to unpack some of that, that, you know, how do you think about things in different administrations.
But first you have a really interesting background, you know, from journalism to your, your current role. [00:06:00] How did you get to here?
Ben: Yeah, I guess it is a little bit of an unconventional, uh, sort of path that I've taken. I, uh, I'm definitely not a buildings person. I didn't come, I'm, I came at this more from a policy and political science.
I was a, you know, really into politics and political science, even in high school. Um, and, and, and, you know, sometimes. In, in this role, I find myself in a room full of like architects and engineers and building science people, and I'm like, you know, wondering what did I go to the wrong meeting? And, you know, maybe one day I'll know all these acronyms like by the time I retire.
But, but I'm getting there. I'm getting there. But yeah, I, I did, I came at it from, you know, more of a, of a politics background. I, I, uh, started my career as a reporter. I started as a. Covered local government, um, in, in Orange County, uh, North Carolina, uh, which is where Chapel Hill is. And, and covered everything from like courts to crime and you know, all, everything in between.
Uh, local government, county government. Um, and then I covered city hall in the city of Durham, North Carolina, uh, which is [00:07:00] a really fascinating city. And, and I. I have to say that was, that may have been my funnest job. I, I worked there for about five or six years in, in North Carolina covering local politics and local government.
And it was, it was really, uh, a lot of fun. I had a great learning experience about how, you know, cities operate. Um, but I always wanted to cover Washington politics and I, I came to. To DC and took, got a job with Congressional Quarterly, which at the time was sort of like Politico is today. It was the sort of publication of record on Congress that covered really the minutiae of Congress and, and just by chance what the, the beat that they had open was, was the energy beat.
And, and that was the job that I got. And it wasn't because I. Knew anything about energy or had a background there. I knew nothing about energy really, and um, but was certainly thrown into it. And it, and it also happened to be at a time when. You know, if you remember back to that, that time around 2005, um, when we had energy politics that are kind of similar as they are today in terms of rising [00:08:00] prices, a lot of geopolitical ins instability.
And, and George Bush was president, you'll recall, and that is when we got really the, the two most impactful energy bills of the modern area, very large sprawling energy bills that were the 2005 Energy Policy Act and the 2007 Energy Independence and Security Act that. A lot of the energy policy we have today stem from those two very large bills.
And, and that was like sort of old school legislative, you know, making the sausage. And I, as a reporter for Congressional Quarterly sat through all of it. I sat through these, you know, hearings that would last all day for, for, you know, and go on for weeks really on, on various issues. And, um. And so I really got a front row seat to how energy, you know, policy, uh, is made.
And, and that was a really great experience. Um, and then after that I went to work for the Associated Press and was more of a, I worked in the Washington Bureau and it was more of just a general political, uh, reporting. I was, I covered southern politics, which was also a lot of fun. I'm from the south [00:09:00] myself.
I'm from Memphis, Tennessee. I covered elections and those sorts of things. And it, you know, after a while, you know, as, as the more that politics became a kind of a blood sport and journalism kind of 24 7, you know, job that, you know, the industry was not doing so well, still is not doing so well. Uh, I decided to, to leave journalism.
I, I also was just ready to do something different covering politics I was with. And move to the advocacy side. And then for the past 10 years or so, I've worked on energy efficiency and buildings policy and I've been with U-S-G-B-C for about five years and was with before that with the Alliance to Save Energy, which is a small, uh, energy efficiency nonprofit that's really sort of at the tip of the spear of kind of energy efficiency policy.
And it's something, you know, I talked to, you know, a lot of young people reach out asking about career path, how to get into sustainability work and that sort of thing. It's one thing I tell 'em. Find something interesting to do and, and, and let it take you where you, where you want it, you know, and you can, and obviously you're, you're gonna, you're gonna shape that, but, um, you know, [00:10:00] dive in and, and go find some interesting stuff to do and, and see where it takes you.
Uh, I think is is the best advice for young people who seem to, you know, want the perfect thing right outta school or whatever. And I, and, and I think there's lots of, there's lots of flexibility these days in what, what people can do.
Jeff: That's interesting. I was. Just by kind of happenstance, I think I had to take one more class to get my environmental studies minor kind of thing.
And so I was like, oh, you know, might as well attack something on. But most of my career was tech. So it's really in the last three years that I just, you know, I always thought likewise, like I'm not gonna invent the next, you know, fuel cell or solar panel, you know, better solar panel. I'm not, I'm not a scientist.
I don't, there's no role for me. And I, it's one of the things I really wanna promote as well, like climate change is a fight of our lifetime and our kids' lifetimes. And so we need people of all different backgrounds and, you know, you just gotta find a way to get started. It is, as things are merging, um, you do, you get, it's not like it's just falling, [00:11:00] you know, from the skies.
You have to be pretty intentional about, you know, figuring out, okay, where's my, you know, where can I add value, uh, in the overall process.
Ben: Yeah. And, and absolutely. You know, just on that point, I mean, I, I think the, it's interesting 'cause the role that I have now, it seems a lot different than being a reporter.
It is a lot different, but a lot of it really boils down to like the current, you know, my current role is like explaining things and advocating for things and showing people why they should care about something in a, in a very condensed way. And when, you know, when you're an AP reporter and you gotta write a 600 word story in an hour and a half about, you know, something that you could write a book on.
Uh, you, you become very good at, at, at very quickly, you know, explaining things and, um, you know, describing why it's important and why people should care. Um, and, and that's sort of my job now, is to go in and talk to people and other policy makers. They're not the general public, but you know, and, and, and try to explain very complicated issues and boil them down, uh, in [00:12:00] understandable ways and, and get them to care.
Jeff: So I want to touch a little bit on, uh, kind of the legislative and that transition since you've seen it, since 2005. And it's interesting because I kind of, the big push for me was the inflation reduction act as I realized, okay, for the first time, at least from my perspective, you know, $390 billion. To, you know, really help decarbonize our existing built environment.
Um, it was fascinating to me that like 1 7, 9 D went back to, you know, the Bush administration and two, I believe it was 2005 when 1 7 9 D was first Yeah. Passed. Um, and so I've, I'm curious 'cause you've now seen multiple Republican Democratic administrations. Talk a little bit about that shift. You know, what, what maybe has changed, but what is.
It's still the same, right? Regardless of administration.
Ben: I mean, it is interesting because so many of the things in the IRA were bipartisan policies even five years ago, you know? Yeah. It's not like, [00:13:00] um, and I, and I think the real difference with the IRA stuff is that a lot of that it was put into a package that was sort of, this must pass, you know, signature bill as, as President Trump is coming into office.
And you were either gonna stand in the way of, of his signature achievement or you were gonna, uh, vote for that bill. And so I, I do think that there's a lot more. Bipartisan support for these things, then perhaps the IRA debacle would lead people to believe. Mm-hmm. Um, it was just a very tough position for those moderate, more moderate Republicans to, um, to be in, to oppose it.
And I, um, I think the main thing, you know, watching energy politics. 20 years ago versus today is, uh, you know, when they, when they passed those bills in 2005 and 2007, it was a lot of horse trading and there was a lot of compromise and bipartisan deal making and, you know, it was okay. The Pacific Northwest people get the hydropower goodies and the, you know, the natural gas states get those goodies and the, the wind and [00:14:00] solar was, you know, really new and emerging and, but they were, you know, real markets and they got their stuff and so it was.
And, and a lot of it was regional politics. You know, you had nuclear power plants, like interest in certain states and things like that. And so you had a lot of elected officials coming together, pushing for the priorities of their region, and they would make a deal and they could pass bipartisan bills that were, you know, that were durable and that that, um, and that could get a lot of bipartisan support.
Um. You know, those, both of those bills were, were, were, had significant bipartisan support. It wasn't easy. It took 'em a long time to do it right. And you, you know, unfortunately now you have these situations where everything just has gotten involved in these culture wars and become so politicized. And I don't know, I don't know how we've, we've gotten there, but, uh, um, we gotta find a way out.
We gotta find a way to, to depoliticize these issues and. I think there's a path. I mean, I, I think there is, I, I, you know, [00:15:00] again, I do think there's a lot more bipartisan support for a lot of these issues than, than perhaps meets the Eye. I, funny story, I was, uh, this is a few years ago, I was in a republican senate office talking to a staffer and sort of trying to sell them on some energy efficiency tax incentives and talking about the benefits.
And they, you know, they asked about the cost of those incentives and what it would cost the treasury, you know, how much lost revenue to the treasury if you, you give this, you know, incentives away. And then he finally said, well. Why can't we just, why don't we just force people to build buildings like this and require it?
Why do we have to give them money to do it? And I just, I think I laughed out loud and I, and you know, I was like, it is not being insulting to him. It is like, I think if you, because if you did, if you landed here from the moon and, and you, you would say, yeah, it makes a lot of sense just to require a lot of this stuff up front.
Um, and, and, you know, uh, these are pretty sensible policies that shouldn't be that partisan. Um, and so I, you know, we gotta find a way to sort of get back to that kind of common sense, uh, you know, solutions. And it probably, you [00:16:00] know, it, it involves compromise, it involves deal making. But, but that's fine. We can do that.
Jeff: It's, it's interesting, right? There was a bunch of research that, um, a lot of the IRA funding, most of it went to Republican, you know, majority districts. And so I, I just, it's one of the things as I'm in the space, people have different motivations for the reason why maybe they want to do it, but especially building owners like.
You know, who doesn't want the money or incentives, right? Like right. At some point, um, there is, there is a way to find, uh, common ground, albeit, you know, the motivations may be different. Talk to me, you know, one of the things we're we're doing is we're, we're kind of beginning a series we want with, with such negative headlines and what's going on.
Iran. I, I read a headline in the New York Times that. You know, coal fired power plants are getting this resurgence because liquid natural gas, you know, there's a shortage and, and so many, you know, ways we're, we are taking two steps back, but I'm kinda curious, I'm, I'm [00:17:00] certain there are still really positive things that are happening that you have visibility into.
Like, what are those? Hidden gems or things that, like internally you guys talk about, um, that you wish more people understood, like, Hey, did you have any idea? Like, actually this happened and, you know, here's the, the positive outcome from piece of legislation or something that somebody's doing across the country.
Ben: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, wins. You wanna talk about wins
Jeff: a hundred percent
Ben:. Um, yeah, I mean, you know, look, first, I, I don't want to sugarcoat things. I mean, it is a very difficult time and there is a lot of damage that's being done to programs that, that U-S-G-B-C and I personally, we, we care a lot about and, and are, you know, all about our mission and, and it is going to take a long time to rebuild both the policy infrastructure and programs that are being harmed right now.
You know, things like the endangerment finding going away, you know, Paris Climate Accord. We're now, you know what with, I think it's Libya and Yemen and Iran are the countries that we're with on, on not being a [00:18:00] part of the Paris Climate Accord. You know, in the IRA we, we, we talked about, you know, um, the IRA stuff, it very hard to watch all of that.
And after working so hard on it, uh, for so long. And the impact that's gonna have. I know we're gonna talk about wins, I'm gonna get there. But it's also just such bad policy and politics to, to put policies in place and then pull the rung out from under private companies as they try to act on those. It, it just sets a, a terrible precedent.
I mean, not just tax incentives that. People were making investments based on thinking that those were gonna be there long term, but also grants that have been awarded, organizations hiring, you know, people and, and as they're implementing these grants to do the work under the grant, and then all of a sudden, Nope, your grant is gone.
It's just, I think most people in Congress understand that that is really bad. Policy and really bad politics. And you saw a little bit of pushback in the appropriations bills on that, you know, recently where republicans said, you know, if you're gonna to DOE, you need to follow the guidelines on, on [00:19:00] grant oversight.
You know, you can't be freelancing like this, but, so we'll see how that goes. But I wanna sugarcoat what's happening. It's, it's really bad. But yeah, I mean on the, on the plus side, there's a lot of work in defending the IRA. I think people think that all of the IRA is gone or going away and, and it's not, uh, you know, the geothermal tax credit, for example, the ITC for geothermal and for storage and it's several other zero emissions technologies is still around.
It's gonna be around for almost another decade. Um, and we're seeing huge progress. With, I would point to geothermal particularly, I mean, I've been hearing all sorts of stories about, you know, school systems or rural hospitals installing geothermal systems and the, and the, the savings that they're achieving Because of the ITC, they're able to get over that first cost hump and then achieve those operational savings.
They're saving millions of dollars a year. That they can then reinvest in hiring teachers or nurses or doctors or whatever they're, they're doing. And so, you know, that's a win.
Jeff: I think that's one of, for people that aren't maybe familiar, the investment tax [00:20:00] credit was, you know, money back, especially for not-for-profits.
And so I think that's where. You know, I have heard a lot of positive stories around hospitals being one. 'cause many of them are, you know, not-for-profit or, you know, they're not a, a for-profit institution in schools. That it was real money. The IRS was writing them a check. Uh, absolutely. You know, for, you know, doing, uh, more energy efficient, geothermal being the, the biggest one, uh, particularly in the Midwest from my understanding, was kind of the, the location in the country that, that held or just.
Technically, you know, made a lot of sense out in the Pacific Northwest. We don't have a lot of geothermal, you know, here, but that is really interesting 'cause that will, that's still around, right? That's we've got, yeah. A long time to really, um, you know, kind of leverage those, that program. Just quickly, you guys have some ideas for how to expand the ITC, the investment tax credit.
Can you give us your pitch
Ben: so the listeners understand that the ITC, the investment tax [00:21:00] credit as you, as you said, it's a 30% tax credit on investment, so you spend a million dollars on solar panels or whatever. You get 30% of that. And, and to your point, there was a provision, it was great policy design called, it's called direct pay in the law.
That allowed, even if you're say a school system where you don't pay taxes, you don't pay federal taxes and you don't have, you don't have tax liability, you're able to just get a check from the treasury for that, for the value of that amount. So it's almost like a rebate. Um. And that opened up this whole new world of, of, you know, entities in the mush market, as we call it, you know, the, the sort of public infrastructure buildings to be able to access that.
And, and the ITC is eligible, any technology that can demonstrate that it is a zero emissions generating technology is eligible. And what, what happened in the IRA is they, they took it away. A shorter timeline for wind and solar specifically. It was very specific to wind and solar, um, and, uh, punitive to wind and solar.
Jeff: Yeah.
Ben: [00:22:00] Um, and, and that said, the way it's always been written is that it's only for energy generating technologies. So energy efficiency has never qualified for the ITC, uh, under this new, uh, tech neutral framework. And so our proposal is. To open that up so that it, certain defined energy efficiency investments, whether it's, you know, maybe it's your, your triple insulated glass or your, your, the insulation in your building, your HVAC equipment, if it meets a certain standard, you know, that you would get that same tax credit, 30%, uh, on investment for, uh, energy efficiency investments in your building.
And it would, and there you would have direct pay as well so that, you know, school systems, hospitals, municipal governments, you know, universities could take advantage of it as well. So it would open up the ITC, which is very lucrative tax credit to energy efficiency investments. Um, and it's a policy that, you know, we know is not gonna happen this year.
We're not gonna, you know, but, but there will be another window of opportunity that opens up. The pendulum will swing. And I think, you know, particularly right now [00:23:00] when you have energy costs or rising is, you know, as they are and you have demand surging like it is with AI and data centers. Yeah, I, I certainly hope that we will see Congress taking a fresh look at energy efficiency and demand response, demand flexibility, um, as solutions because they are quick solutions.
They're fa you know, we know how long it takes to build a new generation, um, and get new, new generation online. And, and so, you know, sort of demand reduction, demand demand flexibility kind of solutions. Can, can move quickly and we need them. Um, and, and so hopefully, we'll, we'll be able to, we'll, you know, our goal is to, is to really get, get momentum around that and do some groundwork this year and be ready for the, for when the next, uh, window of opportunity opens politically.
Jeff: I think that would be huge. You know, so much of my time is really focused on building performance standards and kind of existing buildings, and that would be there, there's, there's funding out there. It's just too hard. It. It's not simple [00:24:00] enough and I think the ITC, while there's still complexity, you need somebody to probably advise you and kind of take you through that process.
It's at least more straightforward. Like people understand I spend a million, I get 300,000 you. Or like, okay, I get that. Yeah, like that, that. Is easy math for me versus pace financing or some of these other, you know, C pace or whatever.
Ben: And it's a great point on building performance standards that, you know, it would really help, you know, we've got all these building performance standards.
This is something that would help, uh, building owners comply. You know, it's a, it's a financial sort of step ladder, uh, for, for that.
Jeff: Back to wins. I'm looking for some hope or optimism here, Ben. Like what gives you hope? Like what, what, what makes you put on the hard hat and go to work every day thinking like, okay, I'm gonna make a difference.
Ben: Yeah, well let, I mean, let's look at the appropriations process. For example, take energy star, you know, the Trump administration as it did in the first term. Um, propose to eliminate it or privatize it, something like that. Um, [00:25:00] and you know, Congress very. Explicitly responded in the appropriations bill that they passed that covers EPA No.
And they wrote into the law, you know, you shall spend 33, uh, million dollars, which is basically level funding for Energy Star, uh, on the Energy Star program for FY 26, which is the current fiscal year. And, and that's not a, that's, it is just an example. It's not the only example of where through the appropriations process, you know, Congress really, a lot of the leverages it has is through that power of the purse.
Um, they can not only provide funding, but give direction on how funding must be spent. And we saw a good bit of that. The appropriation process. I think that's where you saw Congress really start to push back on some of the things that the administration was doing unilaterally. Um, not on everything.
There's certainly a lot more that could be done, but, but there was, you know, that was sort of where, where we, where we saw it start now, of course, of. The Trump administration, the EPA turned around and proposed to move energy, started D-O-A-D-O-E about two months [00:26:00] later after Congress passed that bill. So, you know, normal times you get that kind of explicit direction in an appropriations law.
It was signed into law by, by President Trump. That's pretty settled. Um, it, you know, now there's a move, there's a proposal to move Energy started, DOE. We're watching that very closely to see how that would work vis-a-vis the funding that's been provided. And, and we'll be doing that. But, you know, I would say that's, that's something that, that, you know, we saw that was a definitely as a direct result of advocacy that, that organizations like ours and business groups did.
You know, the business groups really went to B for Energy Star and it, and it worked. Um,
Jeff: yeah, I, I think it. People I think are, are familiar. They've seen the Energy star stickers when they, you know, shop for a, a new refrige at, at a, you know, a big box store. Um, but you know, energy Star is so much more Right.
Yeah. Than, than just, uh, labeling or kind of. Uh, energy use guidance on appliance. That's just kinda one piece. I, you probably have the stats. Uh, it is staggering the [00:27:00] Energy Star program in terms of like, savings and like just value to the economy. Do you have some of those stats that you can kind of share?
'cause I think it'll, it's staggering For those that aren't aware.
Ben: It is remarkable and that's why I think it's the most successful public private partnership there is it, you know, energy, they spend about $35 million a year to run Energy Star. What it saves consumers is according to EPA, these are EPA numbers is $42 billion billion, 33 million for an R 42.
You show me a program that that gives you that kind of return on investment and, and you know, it's funny, we've been working on energy Star forever, but you know, until recently we didn't have this rise in demand, so we weren't really looking at. You know from the perspective of, oh, how much energy, we were looking more at cost and emission savings.
But when you look at demand, just the demand energy, demand, electricity demand, it reduces electricity demand in the United States by 520 billion kilowatt hours per year. The coal industry, the entire US coal [00:28:00] industry produces about 650 billion kilowatt hours in a year. So. It's, it's like 12% of all US electricity consumption, it's equivalent to, but it's, you know, the problem, and this is sort of the issue with energy efficiency writ large, is that it's invisible and it's like, it's like avoided costs and things that are happening quietly and invisibly in the economy.
Um. And no one really sees it. And so it's just not valued as it should be. Um, yeah, if there were some way to really visualize that and everybody could see how much money they're saving every day as a result of Energy Star, um, you know, I think it would have a, a lot more, uh, no one would be proposing to throw it overboard.
I'll say that.
Jeff: Yeah, we, um, we, we worked a lot with the Energy Star portfolio manager team, which portfolio managers kinda the application or database, uh, for buildings, right? Yeah. That helps a building, um, owner. Understand their, their usage consumption, you know, building thermodynamics, uh, [00:29:00] weather effects, right?
How much energy you're gonna use, you know, heating, cooling, that kind of thing. Um, it is a phenomenal program application. The, the private sector couldn't, you know, couldn't do that and. Um, that is I think, uh, something, you know, really to celebrate or win or at least common sense does prevail maybe.
Ben: Yeah.
Jeff: Uh, sometimes like what, 35 for 42 billion. Like, okay. I think even the most fervent of us can go, okay, that's a pretty good investment. Anything else stand out for you that you feel like, Hey, I wish, like, as the US Green Building Council, we wish people just knew this.
Ben: I think one other thing I would point to is the courts.
You've seen the courts step up in, in recent cases, for example, with jurisdictions adopting stretch codes in their, in their building energy codes or, or above code, you know, uh, kind of regulations around buildings and courts stepping in and, you know, under, under pressure of lawsuits, uh, protecting those and preserving [00:30:00] those.
Those code provisions as being legal and constitutional. You know, but probably the biggest thing is the way that we're seeing the market respond. I think, you know, we have not seen a pullback in the market. I mean, now certainly companies are talking about things differently. People aren't, you know, going out and, you know, putting up their protest signs about these policies and things like that necessarily, but they are not pulling back from this work.
Um, you know, and I think that's, that's what, uh. We, I think we've been very heartened to see, um, that, that the companies that are leaders in our space are very much continuing to quietly do the work and, and make these investments. Um, you know, I think the benefit of policy is that it can accelerate, that it can.
Push it into markets that may not otherwise be, you know, engaged on these things. Um, so we've got work to do there with policy, but policy is not the end all. It's not and be all of, of what's the primary driver of, of, of this activity. And, um, seeing, [00:31:00] you know, U-S-G-B-C companies, partner companies and allies really continuing to, to move the needle and push forward, uh, is, is is very gratifying and I think.
You know, we are, we are really trying to look forward, right? We're not, we're playing defense in a lot of places, but we're trying to look ahead and work. You know, there's a lot of groundwork when you're coming up with new policy ideas and developing policy. It's all about. Coalition building, right? You gotta have the, the right stakeholders at the table pushing for the right policies.
Um, you know, one of the things about our industry and the real estate and sort of, uh, sustainable buildings and energy efficiency industries, is it when, when you, it comes to. Politics and coalition building we're like more disaggregated than a lot of you. You think about, you look at like the solar industry and they're this sort of monolithic entity.
Yeah. That is where all the companies, their business model very much, you know, hinges are very much supportive of like the ITC, that tax credit [00:32:00] or, or wind or, or natural gas, whatever those industries. They have their trade pumps. Yeah. Yeah. They have their trade associations. They do their thing. You know, our sector is like, we got real estate companies, we got HVAC manufacturers, we got architects, engineers, we got, you know, building owners and they all, you know, like green building and energy efficiency to some degree and support it to some degree, but it's often not the primary thing.
And so we have this. Added complication. I think in our space of, in terms of building political coalitions and true political muscle behind the kind of policies that we need, it is tough and I, we have to do a better job of that moving forward, of designing policy that's gonna get all of these different.
Groups really excited about it and excited enough to really go to bat for it, because that's what it takes. We gotta have, uh, we gotta have more engagement. And, and so we'd certainly encourage listeners if you're interested in that. You know, we're not a trade association, but we do a lot of advocacy. We do a lot of coalition building around [00:33:00] advocacy and, and would love to, to chat if that's something that, uh, that folks are involved in.
Jeff: I, I love, I, I believe it's an African proverb that says, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. And I, I very much believe that to be true. You know, where we have somebody who thinks that, you know, they own the White House. They don't, they're steward, right? Like they can, they can do a lot of damage quickly, right.
And tear a lot of things down. But my, I guess if I have hope, it's that we have built systems and, and there are coalitions and it, it's slower work. It's not headline grabbing. Um, but it is enduring. And then that's that, that's some of the optimism, I guess, that I have. What advice would you have to somebody who's younger or.
Like, man, I, I would love to do more. They, they, you know, climate change is something they wanna, like, how can I be helpful? Um, buildings is something maybe they, [00:34:00] they've started to realize, wow, they're, they're a major contributor to, you know, greenhouse gas emissions. What would be your best counselor advice to them?
Ben: Yeah. You know, I, I think getting expertise in specific areas is really, really great. I mean, I, you know, if you're gonna work in policy in this area, you need to know how Washington works, right? And, and that's sort of a baseline. You need to, you need to learn that, and that takes time. Um, but if you can get sort of specialized expertise in a particular industry or field, I mean, those are the people I think who are often the most respected, who really know both how Washington works and also.
Understand the intricacies of a, of a given industry or technology, um, and how it plays out. If, if you can do, if you can sort of get those two things right, um, you're gonna be in demand. You know, people, people need that. They need that sort of specialized, uh, uh, knowledge. And, and so I think that's, that's one way, and, and part of that is just.
Kind of jumping in and diving into a specific [00:35:00] field and, and, and getting to know it, you know, and, and that's often the best. You know, people a lot of times ask, should I go to graduate school for them? I'm like, ah, I don't know. Maybe go take, go do this job if you can get it, you know, part of the time. Some of the time I get graduate schools needed to, to get these jobs.
But, um, you know, if you can get a job where you, where you have an opportunity to really learn how an industry or a technology works, uh, that's really valuable.
Jeff: I think, I think AI in many ways, uh, may save us, but not in the way we think. I think the demand for, for electricity, right, via data centers, what it we, our public utilities, we do not understand the tsunami that is coming.
And so I think in many ways. That it, it's gonna lead to higher prices. Like it's gonna, it is gonna continue to elevate things just like gas prices right now are doing for people. Uh, it's interesting, I, I saw a headline that, um, Tesla has reported more [00:36:00] sales because of, you know, gas prices. So in some ways we need that, like, that reaction, you know, that we need the negative to then hopefully go drive something, uh, in a more positive way.
Ben: In response to what you just said, Jeff? Um, you know, about rising costs. I mean, I think that's where we have to, you know, we talked about the how do we make, how do we depoliticize this stuff and get back to where we can have bipartisan, uh, you know, cooperation on a lot of these issues. And I think that might be what triggers it.
Um, we, and, and you know, we, I think we have to change the narrative about. Clean about the clean energy transition. And you know, right now I think critics of it have done a good job of making it seem like a luxury and, you know, something that, you know, sort of wealthy people can afford to have, uh, you know, think to, can afford to worry about climate.
Probably during the Biden years, maybe a little bit during the Obama years as well. We didn't do enough to talk about, no, this is the cheapest, fastest, this is the future. This is the cheapest, fastest [00:37:00] energy future we have. Um, and we have to make these investments now if we're going to be successful and we're going to lower prices.
It's sort of the, you know, it's the economy, stupid, you know, kind of thing. And that, and totally, you know, I think there's like this excellent story that's out that's just sitting out there that, you know, we do tell. But it, it, it doesn't, it hasn't broken through about how much of an economic opportunity this is.
I mean, I was in Mexico recently and saw, you know, a bunch of those B Chinese, BYD ev cars driving around. First time I had seen 'em, and really, I read news about 'em and everything. But you, there are a lot of them down there and, and, you know, I couldn't be help but think, you know, the, these could be Fords, right?
And, and you can, you can say the same thing about any product, you know, that that's out there in the clean energy sector, whether it's loan body, carbon materials, you know, uh, you know, HVAC technology, whatever it is. I mean, there's a massive opportunity for US companies to, to win this, these, um, you know, these markets.
And if we don't invest in it. It's, it's, you know, we're, [00:38:00] we're, we're not gonna be successful. And so, yeah, I think we need to, we really have to find a way to flip the, the discussion to be around that and about the opportunity around this as opposed to sort of the perception that it is some sort of, you know, added cost burden that we're doing only because of emissions and, and climate.
Jeff: No, I, yeah, I think you're right. Rising costs, it's gonna cut kind of both ways, but I think it does help people to frame the argument differently. And resilience. I think that's the other thing, right? Like
Ben: absolutely.
Jeff: If, if there's anything, the straight of Hormuz hopefully is teaching us, it's that when we put all of our eggs in one basket.
Somebody, can you threaten that basket? Like, yeah, why wouldn't we wanna be more diversified and have wind and solar in every single possible power generation technology available to us? Right? That's an argument that cuts across the aisle. Ben, it has been a pleasure to have you on reframe. Thank you so much for your insight.
Thank you for your advocacy. I know it's tough times, tough [00:39:00] sledding these days. Um, but I'm really thrilled that we've got you in DC uh, fighting the good fight. So thank you.
Ben: Yeah, thank you Jeff. Great to be on.
Jeff: Ben opened my eyes on a number of topics. Here are three of my takeaways from our conversation. The first energy efficiency is the biggest climate story. Nobody's telling energy Star loan cuts 520 billion kilowatts a year. That's roughly the entire output of the American coal industry, but avoided energy is invisible by definition.
You can photograph a solar farm. You can't photograph a building that's stopped wasting 30% of its energy. The highest ROI climate play in the country is the most undervalued. My second takeaway is that the market is running ahead of the rhetoric Policy headlines have swung hard, but the company's leading on sustainable buildings haven't pulled back.
They've gone [00:40:00] quieter. Tenants, operators and capital partners still want efficient buildings and the economics still pencil. Policy accelerates this market. It doesn't drive it. That's a more durable foundation than the news cycle suggests. And finally, clean energy has been sold wrong for years. Critics framed it as a luxury for people who can afford to worry about climate change.
The real message advocates never led with is. This is the cheapest, fastest energy future on the table. Not a sacrifice, not a trade off. The best deal available. And if the US doesn't build it, somebody else will. Which leads me to the reframe. The climate news cycle runs on conflict, setbacks, reversals, warnings, missed targets, fights between sides.
That's what gets covered, not because it's the whole picture, but because conflict is what gets attention. [00:41:00] Meanwhile, common sense, climate progress keeps happening. Buildings get tuned. Portfolios get electrified. Compliance deadlines get met, and capital keeps flowing towards efficient assets. None of it is a fight, and yet all of it is real.
So here's the reframe. The work is two things. We have to keep perspective and we have to make the invisible, visible. Perspective because conflict will always sound louder than the physics and measurement because efficiency only wins the political support it deserves when we can point at it, count it, and prove it.
Thanks for listening to Reframe. Until next time...
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