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Get Me to the Gray, presented by COJA Services Inc., is a podcast about the conversations we’re told we shouldn’t have. Hosted by journalist and author Paula Lehman-Ewing, the show brings people with fundamentally different ways of seeing the world into honest dialogue—where we name what divides us and keep talking anyway.
COJA Services Inc. works with mission-driven organizations and brands that are clear on their values but struggle to translate that clarity into public-facing language. We help teams align internal narratives, reduce confusion before it becomes mistrust, and translate complexity into public understanding without relying on scripts, rhetoric, or generic AI language that strips voice and judgment.
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Paula (Host): [00:00:00] My guest today is Sara Alessandrini, an Italian filmmaker and social commentator based in Los Angeles. She's the creator of This is What New Yorkers Say, a five-part docuseries examining how media bias, political agendas, and social movements shaped public perception around former New York Governor Andrew Cuomo.
Her work engages questions of due process, media responsibility, cancel culture, and the pressures of a social media driven society. Welcome, Sara.
Sara Alessandrini: Thank you very much for having me, Paula. It's great to be here.
Paula (Host): So something I, I kept noticing across both the docuseries and, and, and your writing is, is how much you focus on narrative. Who gets believed, who gets amplified, and how. Public perception forms from that. So I wanted to ask, you know, when you're critiquing media narratives that seem one-sided, how do you make sure you don't create a new narrative that's also one-sided?
In other words, how do you [00:01:00] combat a one-sided conversation? Do you replicate it and do the other side, or do you have a conversation that does include both sides? Do you model what should be happening?
Sara Alessandrini: So that's a question that I've been asking myself for the past four years. How do I keep myself to be unbiased?
How do I make sure that I'm so open-minded not to be, not being able to question any, any truth, because also, I'm an immigrant, so that's a question I've been asking all my life because here, even when I approach politics beyond this documentary, beyond Cuomo. Every time, Trump says something, whatever he says.
Now everybody's just jumping, like, oh, if he changes this role, whatever, it's like birthright citizenship, water id, or whatever it is.
Everybody jumps like, oh, this is fascism. He's trying to change this country. To me, having lived in another country, I'm like, well. Every other country has the same rule that maybe he's trying to propose. So maybe it's not the end of the world, but [00:02:00] then I'm questioning myself too. It's like, okay, now I'm justifying this.
Now I'm justifying that. Now I'm justifying that. Where is the, where is the line? Where is the line for myself? Because yeah, Italy crossed into the line of fascism. But how do you define that line? How do you make sure that you're being open-minded, being able to question, be able to see the nuance, but how do you stop yourself before actually you cross the line, we're like, oh, I'm starting justifying everything because it's just subjective what the truth is.
Paula (Host): Yeah. I mean, if you're defining that for yourself though, as you're going through the process, you know, the people that you spoke to in the documentary were all pro Cuomo. They were all. I
Sara Alessandrini: don't, I don't think every, everybody was , like people in Union Square, I don't think they were necessarily Pro Cuomo. They were just, center people who were able to see that nuance, I would say.
Paula (Host): Right. I guess what I meant by pro Cuomo is that they were at least anti the treatment he got. Right? So they might not have been. [00:03:00] Like Cuomo enthusiasts, they weren't walking around with his merchandise or anything like that, but they were saying the way the media treated him was unfair.
And, and I, and I guess what happened with Cuomo and, and I think beyond Cuomo, lots of politics is that the same moments can look very different from different perspectives, right? So DOCUSERIES focuses on this sort of me too momentum that, that gained traction when Cuomo was governor.
Um, and some people look at that and say, you know, that's narratives moving too fast. And some people look at it as a long overdue correction that's actually gaining traction. So like, me Too, didn't. Come outta nowhere. It built on decades of frustration with institutions that people thought were not going to deliver accountability, especially to women in vulnerable groups.
So for a lot of people, when those formal systems don't work, accountability shifts [00:04:00] into the court of public opinion. And so when you think about the role of public narrative. When formal institutions fail, what are some of the responsibilities that, that storytellers like, like you and I have to really consider when we do that?
Sara Alessandrini: Yeah. I mean, and I think like the, what you're saying, first of all, yes, there was a reason for the MeToo to exist to, for that conversation that needed to happen. The problem that I see right now, even from the past like six, seven years, it feels like every year there is a different narrative.
Like there is a different new truth. It's not just me too. It's like Black Lives Matter, the Gaza situation, the ICE. Everything is legit, but the problem is how society is dealing with that. It doesn't feel as legit and organic to me, that's the problem.
And it feels, feels like it's a trend. There is a new trend this year. We just want something cool because we're bored and [00:05:00] then so this year we have a, a different cause that we're pushing for which. Every, like, these are important conversation that needs to happen. For sure. So I think it's important that, okay, there is a push somehow, but then we need to be able to keep the attention for more than those three second span to actually make a real change.
So it's, it shouldn't be like, we have one year to deal with all the Me Too system. We're like, okay, every acquisition. Every man, we have like 30 seconds to decide if he's guilty or wrong. And you have to be able to sit with a problem for a long time to be able to fix it. And I think that's what we are losing in society like, because everything is going so fast, feels like you're not gonna be able to change, uh, the situation for women in this country or in any country.
It over one year, over one movement. Okay, we are changing this. We're changing this rule now, and it takes one year, and then we move to the next topic. It's something you have to do [00:06:00] every day of your life. It's something that you have to remember. So that's the point. Like even for me making this documentary, it was interesting because I'm like, oh, now no one cares more about the Me Too movement.
Because now there is a new topic. Now everybody cares about ice this month, but then next in a couple of months, they're gonna move on to something different. And that's a problem for society that we need to be able to care about these important topics, not just when they're popular, not just when like they're everywhere in the media.
And I think that's where also the media comes in, because the media should be able to make certain topics important even when they're not trendy. You have to be able to. Show to people, explain to people how something is important, even if it's not trended.
Paula (Host): Yeah. But, and I also want to be careful because I don't, I don't, I don't think this is what you're saying, but I, I do wanna clarify that.
, I don't think people get behind movements like BLM or the me too movement, like outta boredom. And they're just like, what are we, what are we gonna be upset [00:07:00] about today? I think that, those are coming from real concerns of, of like humanity and justice.
Sara Alessandrini: Yeah. But that's, but I think like, yeah, there are all kinds of people, even when we talk about immigration, like all immigrants don't look the same, don't have the same reason why they're coming to a country. So even the people that join a movement, they, not all of them have the same reason. And yes, there are the majority is people that care about making a change.
Obviously. I'm not saying they're just more people, but I'm saying once that core group remains, uh. Everybody leaves because it's not, it's not the, the most important thing of the week. Then, uh, the media loses interest when there is not that much of a bulk or so many people posting about it.
Paula (Host): Yeah, and I can understand that, and I, and I, I do think that, that there's something to be said for staying in your lane, like having a, a greater impact when you focus on what means the most to you and, and what's in your [00:08:00] wheelhouse and sort of working, working from there and staying there and continuing the work and showing up to do the work every day.
I guess what I'm, what I'm wondering is when we look at telling stories about politicians and people in power versus when we talk about vulnerable communities that are fighting for basic human rights. What's the trade off? What's the trade off? When you're like, okay, well we're gonna slow this down because well, it's supposed to be innocent, until proven guilty system. Who bears the cost of that? Let's just say like someone is really moving towards fascism, right? . You say, well, you know, let's just see how it goes.
Let's just see how it goes. Let's just see how it goes. Eventually they're gonna have moved the needle far enough. So what trade off are you working with?
Sara Alessandrini: I mean, I think the prob the biggest problem in society is that we don't even have the same definitions of what something is. I think that's the biggest problem, because now there is a lot of people that are [00:09:00] saying, this is fascism, whatever Trump does.
But at the same time, if you are saying, the only way to think is this way. And if you have a nuance, even if you have question about it, then that means you're a horrible human being. Then you are the fascist technically because you're pushing like one narrative and then your position is suppressed.
And that's why I, I think I see a lot of that in society and, uh, beyond politician, beyond the media. Like a lot of people are in that mentality where there is one way to do it. So that's where to me is we're going to fascism because we're not able to listen to other people. So some people like could talk about Charlie Kirk.
Some people say he's a fascist because he has certain ideas that's not fascism because in fascism he would come and will hit you with a baton on the head and then he would go to jail for just having a different opinion. That's not where we are right now, obviously,
Paula (Host): yeah. [00:10:00] Yeah, I would say, I mean, I would say there are hints of it, right?
You're seeing reporters getting arrested for investigating things that, that they don't think should be investigated. I, but like to take politics totally out of it. I completely agree with you that those important conversations aren't happening. That there is black and white thinking that we are, we are full binary society at this point where like you either are or you're not.
And I just wonder if the way to challenge that is to only present the side that you think is not being represented. Because I don't think that's,
Sara Alessandrini: I mean, I don't say, I don't think that's, that's what you have to do, obviously, , but I don't think that's 100% what my documentary is about because I can, no, don't, it's.
Yeah, , because yeah, I don't think your documentary, the first episode, it shows you the the news media coverage, which did one side. Then I wish I had more people also to interview that were hating Cuomo. But the problem is that [00:11:00] those people, he resigned. So a lot of people didn't even want to do the interview because they already got what they wanted.
So,
Paula (Host): right.
Sara Alessandrini: Obviously you're doing a documentary, you're not hiring actors where you can just say, oh. I'm gonna, you have to be this part and you have to be, so you have to deal with whoever is willing to do the interview, obviously. So there are limitations on that, but that's why I also wanted to create the first episode to show what the media all said and mm-hmm.
Because the media was saying the other side, but also to reply to your previous point, why should we focus so much on these topics? The media should not have focused so much on this topic. Like on the Cuomo topic. I think that's the problem. The media got over involved in something that didn't need to get so involved because there was so much pressure.
Every week there was a new accusation. They didn't really check what the accusation was. I mean, there was one person saying he went to the house because there was like a, a disaster, so a flood in the house, he. With this team when there he kiss her on the cheek. You can say that make you [00:12:00] uncomfortable, but you can also understand that that's part of a cultural thing of kissing people on the cheek.
So that should not be oversensationalized by, by the media. So that's where I think the media got over involved in the common situation and, and should have just said, we have an investigation. We don't need to report every, ask every person on the street if the iqua should resign until the investigation is actually finish. Now, I have issues with investigation, obviously, but everything that happened before the investigation that to me was wrong. If the investigation said something, okay, that's when you actually start. First of all, you should still ask question, does this make sense? The attorney general, why did she added things that are busy witness tampering?
So certain things that she put in the report in a court would not be accepted for what she did. But then the media, they kept pushing even when there was nothing to push. Yeah. You see in the documentary talk about how they, the media wrote about CU abandoning his dog. There is no [00:13:00] reason why the media needs to write something like that.
Like even if it was true, there was really no reason. But it's always that narrative to try to push cuomo because you know people are gonna read it even if there is nothing in that story. And also to make him look like a bad human being. That was the narrative that was happening at the time. And I think that's, the media should have not pushed that.
Like just take a step back and just say, this is not the most important thing of this year. There are so many things happening that actually matter more, should be covered more than how they cover Cuomo. So that's the point.
Paula (Host): Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, you know. The invention of the 24 hour news cycle sort of lends itself to that.
These, these stations, you see this need to fill a 24 hour news cycle, and so you just sort of go with the momentum.
But I think that there's also, you know, it brings up another question about losing faith in institutions and moving in those, in those two [00:14:00] binary directions, like you said. And I, and I think that, , for me, outside of politicians, when you just look at your everyday consumer of information. You know, some people push for transformation, new leaders, new systems, new approaches.
I think we could look at the Mamdani case study in that and other people double down on experience and stability and institutional continuity. Both of those sides are just trying to prevent harm, are just trying to make people feel safe. They just see the risk in different places.
Which instinct do you think actually protects society more right now?
Sara Alessandrini: I mean, obviously I'm not a Mamdani fan for, for a lot of reasons. So obviously I am a Cuomo fan. So on that argument, I'm obviously, I'm on the other side of that spectrum and for experience and I think part of the problem that I see, again, as an immigrant coming to this country when I talk to [00:15:00] people, because for me, when I came here, like dealing with tax system, uh, immigration, uh, health insurance, like I have to, I, I got to see a system that is completely different than the one I was raised in.
So I didn't know how it worked. So to me, every time I had to learn something, what would I do? I would ask American people. And the problem was that they never knew anything. And that, to me, it makes me, that's where I ring the alarm bell on people like Mamdani. Because I see the people that you're saying that definitely, yes, they are against a bad system.
Yes, they're voting for Mamdani because they, they think that like he's gonna bring that good change that you're saying. But at the same time, if you are not. Aware of how the system works. Taxes, I'm talking about like the taxing the rich, taxing the billionaires. If you don't understand how the system works, [00:16:00] voting for someone like Mamdani, who again, to me, I think that he doesn't even understand how the system works.
But even if he understood how the system works, now you. Allowing someone that is breaking a system that you don't understand how it works. So the system, yes, there are some parts of the system that can harm you, but also there are a lot of good things that actually are the ones that are giving you the wellbeing that you had all your life.
Paula (Host): I don't think that's a universal perspective. I think like enough people were experiencing harm. In not just New York, but in other places that, that elected these kind of progressive candidates. I mean, even the people who voted for Trump wanted something to be broken.
I mean, they, he, he, he does break a bunch of rules and, and does things to the way that he feels is right and does the, you know, puts out policies and, um, and does things that may be unpopular. But he's the president and he, he calls it this [00:17:00] way. You know, he's not, I mean, talk about someone who doesn't know taxes.
Like he never, he hardly ever paid them. So, um,
Sara Alessandrini: like, because he knows how, how the system works, he doesn't like, he knows how to avoid them. So he knows how taxes work. But if you say, if that is your argument, which I agree, it's an argument. But then why would Cuomo be part of the establishment? All the politician and the media hated Cuomo.
They push him out of office, so probably because he had the behavior that was against the establishment because the establishment wanted to preserve something. And Cuomo, who was someone that said, I don't care about this. I need to get these things done. Was against what they were trying to preserve. So Cuomo in the same sense was what you're saying, someone breaking the system, the, that balance.
Paula (Host): Yeah. I mean, not breaking the political system in the way that, that you're arguing Mamdani does, right? Like someone that's coming in and doesn't know how the system works and, and, and [00:18:00] professes to change it. And I agree that, that, that is yet to be seen, um, you know, based on the fact that. A lot of his appointees have been Bill de Blassio appointees.
It's not, it's exactly like he's revamping the whole thing.
And I, and I think that, I think that people are gonna find that you can't just take one man and, and expect everything to change.
Um, but I do think that there's something to be said for a continuance of the way things are, even though it might be hard because that continuance translates as real harm to people who are experiencing it in more extreme ways than you and I. So if we're looking at people who can't afford to not have universal pre-K, and you're looking at some of the things that, that are being, talked about on, on campaign trails.
I agree with you that those aren't gonna be implemented, but I also think that on both sides there is a, a sense that what is established isn't [00:19:00] working for anyone. And so that's why I, I, I kind of see these criticisms for Cuomo and backing of Mamdani as, as sort of universal. Because even on the other side, you're seeing, you know.
At the very extreme cases, people trying to overthrow to capital to, to get this new sentiment into the White House. And so, you know, I, I think that, I don't know if anyone's really defending the status quo at this point.
Sara Alessandrini: Yeah. I mean, the status quo is not good and on so many topics for sure. But, but that's the, that's the problem that I have with Mamdani.
It's again, like what he says that he's gonna be able to achieve when he doesn't know how to achieve things. Like if we're talking about childcare, Cuomo and De Blassio are the ones who that to three years old. Right. So, but now, [00:20:00] the past month, like this first month of Mamdani in, in office, they're, they're saying that they're expanding to two years old, which again.
Great. Everybody benefits if that was true, how they're presenting the information. The problem again, is how misleading the information he's bringing because they're saying we're expanding to two care. As if presenting that as if everybody else before him didn't do any, any work towards that. But actually de Blasio.
Did it up to three years old. So if you're just expanding to two years old, so you, it's not you're going from a capitalistic society where everything have to pay for everything because it's just expanding to, first of all, how they're implementing only 2000 people the first year. The second year it's 10,000 more.
But again, it's not covering everyone. So when the communication, the media and everybody pushes as if this is already achieved, the universal [00:21:00] childcare, no, it's just expanding 2000 more people than it was supposed to be already before. That's 2000 people, obviously. Yeah, it's. Good, but you're not succeeding and it's doesn't mean that the people before you didn't do any of the work.
So I think that's also what the problem with society is that everybody, every politician, obviously I'm against that system, were , you're showing yourself, you're doing everything amazing. And the previous person did everything wrong. Every politician has done good and bad things, and it's not only the politician that is an officer.
There are a lot of people that are working and that's the issue that they have the. Me too movement too. It sounds like no one actually work in women empowerment. All the past years until the MeToo existed. But that's not true because there are so many women, so many organizations that have worked towards that goal of empowering women.
It's not just the met too movement, but we live in a, in a modern time where people are like, if it didn't happen during my time, [00:22:00] if I don't know about it, it never happened. And that's where I think also we need to be fair towards everybody, every politician, even before. Yes, all the politicians have done bad things.
Yes, the status quo is not good. But also we have to be fair towards those people before us that also did good work. And we need to acknowledge that and not just act like, okay, now we're gonna change everything. Because the problem was that everything was wrong before,
Paula (Host): right? But these movements, like I said, are coming out of a general, genuine place of delayed justice.
So the Me Too movement wasn't just like, because there was no women's power movements, there were plenty, like you said. Um. But in terms of corporate structures where a male dominant company can take advantage of women and then exploit them and then maybe do an NDA, I mean, that's really what the heart of it was, right?
It was Harvey Weinstein and it was these girls who he used his power to exploit. And [00:23:00] so that comes from a very real place. And I don't know if the story we tell about it is as harmful as delegitimizing that.
Sara Alessandrini: But first of all, I, I'm very much against settlements.
So, uh, like even like when, and because people are making money outta settlements. Especially when you sue the government, the government tried to just pay an amount. It's not their money, it's taxpayer money.
So even if their accusation, they're gonna just try to settle. But then you're encouraging a system where people can sue you even if they don't have any legit case they're gonna still make money. And there was this story from the LA Times that was talking about this, um, law firm that was actually gathering people around on the street and tell them, just say that you were molested at this place.
So that's where the problem is to me, yes, we need, we need to keep all people accountable, but also we don't create a system where people just make a easy bucks on that. Part of the reason why I like Cuomo is that he's not [00:24:00] settling with anyone. He's going for his due process.
If they sue him, he goes, he's not paying anyone. But again, in society, people think, oh, he's the bad guy because he's not settling. But in reality, that's, to me, it's the, the best way to do it. Because if you settle, first of all, you're encouraging people, bad people because there will always be bad actors wanting to make some easy money.
Yes, we have to protect women. Obviously I'm a woman. I, I'm not saying, oh, don't believe women, it's not what I'm trying to say. But because we are women, I want all of us to be, to be believed when we make an accusation.
But if now there are bad actors who take advantage of the system to the point where're all the two accusation are not legit. That's a problem for all of us, but that's where I'm against this black and white thinking. Each case is different. I'm defending Cuomo. I'm not defending Harvard Winston, obviously, it's, it's very different cases. You have to see what the acquisition actually are, how the [00:25:00] system, how, how the story developed.
That's what I'm advocating. I'm not advocating for just believe in certain situation. I'm saying believe people up to the point where , you start the investigation and then you focus the investigation and if there is no proof, you are not gonna send someone to jail even if there is no proof, obviously.
Paula (Host): Right.
Sara Alessandrini: So
Paula (Host): I just think that settlement is not something that everyone has a choice about. You know, if you're someone whose family member is in an officer involved shooting. You are not going to win that case for various reasons. Qualified immunity being probably the top one, so the only sense of justice you can get is to enter into a settlement.
I mean, that's the only way that you, that you get justice. That's how that system works. And so like, I don't know. Oh, but
you're
Sara Alessandrini: saying if, if the person that accused not the per I'm, I'm saying like if you accuse Elon Musk, I'm saying Elon Musk should not do a settlement, should just go for the full amount.
I'm saying, I'm not saying the victim should not. Uh, settle. I'm, [00:26:00] I'm against a corporation settling because if they think they didn't do wrong, then they should fight the thing. And also when you pay a settlement, you pay less than you would if you actually went through the full system.
Right? So,
Paula (Host): yeah, I, I'm just not sure like how any of, of that helps the people who actually have to experience it acutely. You're a big corporation. You could pay the settlement money, you could pay the big money later. In the end, you're probably up against someone who can re, who can barely pay their attorney for that month, you know, unless they're being like, taken on pro bono.
So I, I, I think when it, like, at a very human level underneath kind of the political debates and, and who's right and who's wrong, is this sort of the, the. Moment that we're in right now, which is polarized and exhausted and kind of suspicious, like, what do you think we're really afraid of losing when we're looking at the stories that we're telling ourselves?[00:27:00]
Sara Alessandrini: I mean, I think we're losing ourselves, our ability to actually think and judge. I think that's the problem. I'm not worried necessarily about a person, a corporation, or a system. If we're not able to have those conversation, to be able to see the nuance, to be able to see the gray, if we're not able to see the gray in every situation and be able to have conversation with other people without attacking other people, we're just losing ourselves.
So we're not, it's not that we're losing capitalism, it's just like we're losing our critical thinking. Yeah. And uh, and if you cannot critically think, you can be easily manipulated by other people. So Trump is manipulating people. I think Mamdani is manipulating people. The next person might be Mussolini type, A real fascist that's gonna be able be able to manipulate you.
That's where it is. We have to be able to ask that question, am I being manipulated? But, but ever like, we all should have that question. I
Paula (Host): think that's [00:28:00] a really great place. To wind up is this sort of, we all need to find the gray area for ourselves and then we can talk about what it looks like in society.
But if no one is able to think critically about anything, then , you're just kind of in an echo chamber of just hearing that you're right all the time. And, , and I think that it's, I think that's a really, that's a great place for us to end up. So, I wanna thank you for taking me on that little journey with myself.
I have lots of questions for myself. Now, um, Sara, if you, if people wanna find you after they listen to this episode, where should they go?
Sara Alessandrini: They can, go to my website. This is what New Yorkers say.com. And there you can find links if you wanna watch the documentary. It's on, um, on demand on Apple tv.
It's on TV for free too. If you wanna check it out there. It's multiple platforms and there is a link to my sock. If you also want to read my article about Mom Danny, I'm gonna write more substack soon. Uh, so, and yeah, you can find my social media over there so you can reach out if you have comments, anything.[00:29:00]
Paula (Host): Okay, great. And I'll make sure to put those in the show notes as well. Sara, thank you for, joining me today and, and having some of that, those hard conversations and critical thinking that both of us believe are lacking. So thanks for being on the show.
Sara Alessandrini: Yeah. Thank you for having me.