Aaron Kardell: [00:00:00] You've definitely focused on growth in the user experience. And I think that shines through and I think there are a lot of people out there in similar shoes to you guys that maybe aren't willing to invest in things like paid ads to get more traffic to your site or things like that. And. It really shows that you're committed to this.
You want to see it grow. And I think that's pretty cool.
Aman Rawal: So we didn't have any infrastructure costs to run this website because we were lucky enough to apply to, we got credits for AWS, which is where the site is managed, which just expired this month. That's why we are thinking of, how we can monetize the website now, because we have to pay our introspective bucks, but.
Nate Kadlac: Welcome to the Hey, good game podcast, where we chat with the creators of your favorite games that you secretly play in the cracks of your day.
Joseph Rueter: I'm just Reuter. And I'm here today with my [00:01:00] cohost, Aaron Cardell. Today, we're excited to speak with Aman Raval and Ben Hollier. The creators of math heads. We've got a little front end back end going here.
Aman's a software engineer by trade and a co founder of game heads. He also created another skill training game called daily type, a daily speed typing game that refreshes every midnight with a new challenge. I think I'm going to give that to my pandemic middle schooler who types a little pointy.
And Ben self ascribed backend, a little more backend happening there. A little more pretty on the other side, which we're super aware of. Math Heads, though, is what we're here for. It's a game dedicated to making mental math fun and engaging. Some kind of a challenge where you choose to play on your own with friends or maybe a stranger.
Ooh, strangers. With its [00:02:00] adjustable difficulty settings, you can find the perfect challenge and mental exercises that suits your needs. Aman and Ben, we're thrilled you're here.
Aman Rawal: Thank you. Thanks for having us.
Joseph Rueter: Yeah, certainly. We were hustling down math heads. We see a ton of games these days. But our first question on the pod is always, what's your favorite game to play?
Aman Rawal: I think right now I'm playing a lot of Sudoku on my commute to work. I think, yeah, I think it's, I've played that quite a lot before. It's just, then there's a break and then I just come back to it. I think it's a lot of fun to play.
Joseph Rueter: Totally. And Ben?
Ben Hollier: As for me, I have a couple of games. My full time job, we have like daily stand ups where we'll, Like every time we'll just like do a different online game and it's generally just the New York time games.
So connections, wordle, mini crossword are staples and I really enjoy those. [00:03:00]
Joseph Rueter: Yeah, that's awesome. I've been wondering if I should go back to Sudoku because connections has been. Dominating my gameplay like, Ooh, yeah. Oh, let's see what connections is today. so much fun to be had. I think you're right to say they're staples, aren't they?
Ben Hollier: Yeah. for me, connections are really a mixed bag. Sometimes I'll play it and I'll just be like, got it. Easy peasy. And then other times it's I have no idea what this would even be. What is the connecting thread? And then I finish it and it's Yeah. I get it. I can't believe I didn't get that.
Joseph Rueter: Maybe you've had similar experiences, but now I know when they're tricking you. You're like, no, those two can't possibly go together.
Ben Hollier: Yeah, it's like there's a red herring that they're trying to get you into. It's just no, that's too
Joseph Rueter: obvious. Don't do that. Don't do that. So how'd you guys get started in games?
Take us back.
Aman Rawal: Yeah, so I think [00:04:00] for Mad Heads, Basically, it was me and Khalid. So we have another backend engineer who couldn't join us today. We just wanted to, all of us are software engineers. We just wanted to develop something to improve our software engineering skills. And Khalid came to me one day about this.
It's a game, but it's about basically you tell the person. What date it is in any century and you the other person can tell you what day of the week it would be in like less than 10 seconds. And there was like this memorization technique that you just memorize a few numbers and then you can do it. I liked it quite a lot.
So I started learning about different techniques of doing it. I can't do that right now because I've forgotten it altogether, but that's how we started. We've liked that game quite a lot. We, there was this website where you could get a high score every 10 seconds you have to answer. Based on what date, based on the date, what day it is.
so we thought, why don't we make a multiplayer version of it? It sounds fun. It's a niche, people might [00:05:00] like it to be able to play against each other. Whoever solves it faster. We started doing that, and then, what happened, we realized that it's actually too niche, and Kharlet, who's not here, He is, so he studied maths in university and he used to play this mental math game called ZetaMath quite a lot.
It doesn't have a good interface but it's just you can do some configurations and then you can basically you have to solve as many mental math problems as you can just for training. We thought why don't we make a version of that for multiplayer that might be more fun. So that's how it started. Both of us started the game back in March last year, and then Ben joined us in, in June.
And then since then, yeah, we've just been working on the game.
Joseph Rueter: Aaron, this sounds like some of the trouble we've gotten into. The t shirt is why don't we make dot. And just so much trouble follows after that question. Hey, I got a good idea. Coupons!
Aaron Kardell: Oh boy, [00:06:00] don't get me started, Joseph.
this is a very polished site. I take it, you must have a decent amount of traffic, but hasn't been out there that long. What's been the big thing that's gotten people interested in MathHeads?
Aman Rawal: So I think, probably two things. One is that how it works on mobile. It's pretty fast to load.
You can save it as mobile app on your phone, even though it's not an app. And the UI user interface, people have liked that quite a lot. It's easy to use. There's no lags. And the other thing that people liked a lot was the fact that the difficulties, they don't start. The key, the problems don't start with a difficult right from the start, they just get harder.
So the progression of difficulty that people enjoyed quite a lot. That's what we got from the feedback.
Ben Hollier: We also have a bit of a USP, which is like multiplayer, head to head, two different people can solve questions versus, which I don't [00:07:00] really think has been done much outside of our app.
Aaron Kardell: Yeah, we've got a big database of a lot of games that we track, a lot of games that we're interested in, and you're absolutely right, there aren't a lot of multiplayer games out there.
So from, Ben, I don't know if that's a question for you, but from a backend perspective, was that hard to pull off?
Ben Hollier: It's definitely had some challenges. Yes, recently we had to completely redo the multiplayer backend to facilitate some of the features that we want to do. So we've been, we've added like ELO rankings.
So if you play two different people will have different ELO rankings. We're calculating. how much Elo you gain or lose, depending on that, we're looking at other features as well. And yeah, it's been a bit of a challenge, but it's been interesting as well.
Aaron Kardell: And so do I have this right, that on your site, [00:08:00] you've got single player, multiplayer, play with friends.
Every time I click that multiplayer button, you're just going to pair me up with somebody, some rando, we'll say. And then, but play with friends. That's where maybe I could. Start a game and I get a link and whoever joins up on that link, we get to play together. Is that right?
Ben Hollier: Yeah, exactly. You get a link that you can paste to, your friend or whatever and have lighthearted competition between each other.
Joseph Rueter: Yeah, I was delighted to find that in browser. I know, is it Game Center inside a two Apple devices can play these kind of goofy little games in chat? So some of that, Gameplay might be similar, but I hadn't, for whatever reason, contemplated doing it in a browser on a casual game. Are you challenging, are you challenged on like the user case of teaching people?
hey, you can do this in a browser.
Aman Rawal: In terms of our statistics, so Play With Friends is like our least used games [00:09:00] mode. So we haven't focused a lot on it. I think we, that was the first thing we released when we released the game, single player classic mode and Play With Friends. But I feel like what we have seen is it's mostly quite, so we don't really get more new, a lot of new users for Play With Friends, but it's just people and we've seen people in schools, teachers reach out to us.
Right now you can only play with three other friends, but they have been using it in their classes and then they want to be able to support more people, have all their students just join the link and then play. So that's something we are going to look to do in the future at the moment we haven't.
The challenges we did face were mostly for not just play with friends, but multiplayer was iOS. Devices work differently than Android devices. And we found that there were a few challenges with iOS devices where, if you're playing the game and suddenly you just switch to another app, by the time you come back, you just, you're disconnected.
That's not what happens in the browser. So we did have to deal with some of those challenges, but in terms of explaining to the [00:10:00] users, we, no, we haven't had to do that yet.
Aaron Kardell: Have you given any consideration for like. All of your games are live, right? Have you thought about async mode where two people are given the same set of problems, but different start times and you go back and forth that way and.
See who does better.
Aman Rawal: We have thought of that. We basically have a list of many things we want to do That is something right now on Multiplier We want to improve our Multiplier service like improved matchmaking first before we able to introduce something like this We would want user to be matched with somebody who is you know, quite equally who skill levels skills level matches with yours so Once we have that done once we have more and more because we have seen like in terms of our multiplayer That's our fastest growing game as well.
Like we have in terms of users Unique users. It's our second last game. So after play with friends, it's that but in terms of the number of games [00:11:00] We have a lot more games being played on multiplayer then so we have less users But we have a lot way a lot more games being played on multiplayer So right now we want to grow this out first before we do async We did think of async as one of the solutions for the disconnections as well So if it is async, then we don't have to worry about a user disconnecting and not coming back again It's something we've thought of Not, yeah, it's just in the backlog.
Aaron Kardell: You mentioned a number of gameplays and number of players. Are those stats you're willing to share?
Aman Rawal: Yeah, I did take some out before the call. So right now we have around, on a monthly basis, around 35, 000 monthly active users. In terms of unique users, a single player mode is the most famous, which has around 10, 000 users.
And then we have training, which is training mode, which is again, fully on the front end, just for users to practice. There's no ranking involved around 7, 500 users. There's a survival mode. I don't know if you have seen where basically the [00:12:00] problem's just, it's not time based it's you have lives and you have to solve them before the problems.
You lose all three lives that has around 5, 000 and multiplayer at the moment has around 4, 500 users. Play with friends again at the end is 2, 600 users for the total number of games played multiplayer with just 4, 500 users has around 37, 000 games being played. And then we have single player, which is 36, 000 games being played.
Then training 20, 000 survival, 13, 000 and then play with friends around 10, 000 games. very cool.
Aaron Kardell: That's great progress.
Joseph Rueter: Super curious.
Aman Rawal: Yeah.
Joseph Rueter: We can fill up a football stadium with those humans, proper football stadium. So from a UX standpoint, I started playing and I wanted to keep hitting enter. And it took me a little while to go like, Oh, I don't have to hit enter.
Talk us through that gameplay function. How did you think through that?
Aman Rawal: So I think it's how zeta mac one of the other games that We saw [00:13:00] Did it and it's more about users being able to get as high of a score as they want So in order to do that You shouldn't have to press and try the answer then press enter because then you're losing a second and if you see our high scores We have got mental math world champions player side play our games So they're right at the top for the hard mode.
They've got a score of 130 40 or something I don't know No, that's off of my head. That means for two, you're answering a problem in less than a second. So adding another keystroke to be able to do that, you're reducing your score. So we want to make it, I think
Ben Hollier: on discord, we've had people be like, how do I increase like The time it takes me to like type on my keyboard, because that is like an actual limiting factor is just being able to type your answer in a keypad.
Joseph Rueter: Yeah. I have the strip, like a little strip keyboard, the right. I was like, Oh no, I need the number key thing on the side. I hate those things. I don't know why they exist. You just gave [00:14:00] me a reason. I was like, Oh, now that I get. This also reminds me of some of the conversations that we've had where you're trying to detect bots.
And there's just a physical limit on the hardware for mice and keyboards and so forth. Like it cannot receive input faster than its physical limit. And I don't know if you've got bots playing your super game here, but we
Ben Hollier: do have. That is funny. speaking of our pro players, we have had cases where we have blocked our pro players because we thought that they were going too fast and they were like, Oh.
Wow, people could really go fast. So we've had to increase our limits, but
Aman Rawal: yeah. We did have these limits, that, we thought it's just not possible for a human, but we have been proven wrong by a few guys on our discord server. we have slowly changed [00:15:00] the limits of it, but we do. I remember the first time we, when we didn't have the logic to detect bots, I remember some guy.
Who was using the name of our top scorer to like just play a game at that time You couldn't sign it So you could use any username and then he just took over our leaderboard because there was a public leaderboard when we started Anybody could and there was no protection so In a day we had to go back to our database and remove all the entries because it was the same guy with so many scores, like the top, I think 250 or something, which isn't possible.
So what ended up happening was that I spent the whole night clearing the database. And then when I woke up the next morning, the guy was there again, we had to spend a lot of time to be able to add some board protection using, as you said, seeing what's humanly possible and also tracking the IP address and then just automatically blocking them from, they can still play the game, but their scores won't be saved in our database.
They won't be part of the data board. And then we found out there was this one guy here. In Tamil Nadu, India, who was pretending to be this guy, top scorer. [00:16:00] And then he was using some sort of script to do it. So once we put his IP address in a block list, nobody was doing it anymore.
Aaron Kardell: So I'm curious, you talked about some cool ways of engaging with your discord community.
But I'm super curious, what have you learned from that? And was that something you launched right away or did you do it later? And what have you done to keep that going? That's a lengthy multifaceted question, but I'm just so curious to learn more.
Aman Rawal: so I think, I can't remember when we started the discord group, but it was pretty early on after we launched the game and, a friend of ours, was not officially working on methods, but was kind enough to just.
He said, I'm happy to handle the discord server for you. So he was just taking care of that and anytime. And I think basically we nudged our users to join discord to get latest updates and stuff like at the top, we put a banner saying that we just created a new community. Any new user that [00:17:00] comes would see that banner and a button to join discord.
So initially we started to get some members, and then we tried to make sure to keep posting more, any new features, any, even the smallest changes that we are making in there. We made sure, I think our friend made sure that there's a channel for people to report bugs or to get some support or any help that they need, or just some discussion about any, knowing about any tricks that can help them out.
So I think we just, Yeah, it's just people kept joining and then now we have around a thousand members and anytime something goes wrong with the site, that's where we hear. Our users are always there complaining, not complaining, but letting us know that, something went wrong. And then, we don't really need tests on our website.
They let you know right away. That's
Aaron Kardell: pretty cool.
Ben Hollier: Yeah. We don't even really have Any good monitoring, we just need to look in discord and they'll just tell us when play with friends as a working.
Aaron Kardell: It looks like you've got over a thousand members on your discord server. So that's pretty cool. So
Joseph Rueter: discord gives you a bunch of information about what's going on the [00:18:00] site, right?
It sounds like you don't have bots. You have human QA to check for things that no scripted tests, just calorie fed testers.
Aman Rawal: It's like you have access to a thousand devices without paying for even one of them, which is really cool.
Joseph Rueter: you pay by putting up the goods. You got to build the game, right? You got to create the landscape for people to play.
What kinds of things have gone when you're managing the community?
Aman Rawal: I think a lot of the people have helped us out. If we want to release something, we would just reach out to them to like. check our staging site before we release it to the public. Our suggestions feedback channel is filled with suggestions.
So if there's something small that we can quickly release, like I think statistics was something that we took quite a while before we released it and it was because We only released it when we start to we know when we saw some feedback in the channel that people would be like to see some statistics about how they are doing then we were like, it's actually not that difficult to do So how about we just release it [00:19:00] and then?
Yeah, I think it's just feedback and QA and A B testing. A lot of things that Discord has helped us out with.
Joseph Rueter: Super curious. it's some of the hesitation. How do you engage the Discord group? I don't know what they're going to say. It's going to be bad. How about on the ad side? How do you guys go about getting users?
initially, Was this a reddit post and it picked up steam fun and love those just like throwing it over the fence to go Hey, let's see if this works. How have you gone about marketing post launch?
Aman Rawal: So we launched this in March last year, no, 2023. Yeah, March last year. Sorry, I just got confused with the dates.
The first way, like Reddit was the reason why we thought this is something we should be focusing on. Cause as I said, it was first started as a project for us to improve our skills, to learn a bit more about sockets, which is like the technology for the real [00:20:00] time communication for implementing multiplayer mode or, When we started posting on Reddit and some forums and trying to reach out to some Facebook groups and basically use all social media.
Reddit was the most responsive. We, did some posts on some channels. This is where we use chats. If you need to tell us about the top, tell us about the channels where we should be posting about this sort of game. So it came up with a few suggestions and we posted there. We got some really good feedback over there, especially about, the two points that I mentioned, the design of the website, the user experience and the progressive difficulty.
And then we had analytics implemented on our website right from the start so that we can see how many users are coming, how many users are playing. We saw that jump quite a lot. In April, from I think March was around a thousand users and April was around 15, 000 who have tried, gone to the website and then, just seen it.
At that time, we weren't spending money on ads. It was just posting on Reddit, [00:21:00] either on a mathematics subreddit or a game subreddit. And it just, it worked out really well. And then we thought, okay, now that Reddit, we have posted, because we all of us have day jobs as well. We can't just keep doing this.
All the time anytime you were releasing something, we would post something but then We were like we need a way to be able to promote our website That's when we tried google ads and reddit ads. We found out that reddit ads is not useful at all. It's all bots We spend like a hundred pounds. I think they said you spend a hundred pounds, you get like a hundred pounds worth of credit or something.
So we spend that. And then we saw that it's actually bots. Our budget is for the use. We haven't really seen any users. Then we tried Google ads because they also had an offer. if you spend this much money, you get the same amount back and Google that surprisingly worked out really well for us. I think we were paying around.
I can't remember how much we were doing, but it was a lot cheaper for us to use Google ads versus Reddit, versus Reddit. [00:22:00] And then we actually we were sticking with Google ads till I think last week when we decided that we're going to stop Google ads now Just get organic traffic from there and look for other sources.
Aaron Kardell: It's interesting. So you're I could be wrong on this with my perception of what I see, but it looks like, is it true that you're not yet monetizing the site? do you have no ads, no subscriptions yet?
Aman Rawal: Yeah, we did try to monetize it last year in November, December, but we tried to get approval for Google AdSense to be able to show some ads, but They didn't approve our site, and then they closed our account.
We didn't get enough information from them as to why it happened. But then we thought, let's focus more on, growing our user base, releasing more features, and then we're going to try again. So I think we just then stopped thinking about monetization, thought of first releasing more features. And then maybe, once we have more users, we'll have many sources of Making money from the website.
I love it. Recently.
Aaron Kardell: You've [00:23:00] definitely focused on growth in the user experience. And I think that shines through. And I think there are a lot of people out there in similar shoes to you guys that maybe aren't willing to invest in things like paid ads to get more traffic to your site or things like that.
It really shows that you're committed to this. You want to see it grow. And I think that's pretty cool.
Aman Rawal: So we didn't have any infrastructure costs to run this website because we were lucky enough to apply to, we got credits for AWS, which is where the site is managed, which just expired this month.
That's why we think of, how we can monetize the website now, because we have to pay our infrastructure costs. But because we didn't have any infrastructure costs. We only had marketing costs, so we thought, why not? We just spend some money and then see if the users are increasing per month or not.
Aaron Kardell: That's cool. And have you had any, maybe other surprising opportunities come your [00:24:00] way as a result of building the site, maybe less direct monetization, but work opportunities, partnerships, any, anything interesting in that regard? We do. We
Aman Rawal: have had a couple. One was with this guy who's, so this was, there's this website, World Mental Calculation League or something.
I can't remember the exact name, but. Basically, they were building a simulator just like ours, for world champions to compete and then use our platform basically to either train or qualify and then compete. And then, basically one of them gets an award. that's how our site got used by, I believe some of the world champions in this mental math space.
We decided that we are going to think about it, but then we realized that what they wanted was a lot different than what our users All of our users want at the moment is they wanted it to be a lot rather than supporting, One operator like having 10 operators in one [00:25:00] problem that you need to solve and then the game be your game go on till For 30 minutes or something and it had a lot of challenges if you were to adapt build something like that because our app is a used quite a lot on mobile.
And if you try to fit a problem with 10 operators on mobile, it's not going to work. You have to think of a clever way of doing it. And it just wasn't worth it. So we decided to, we'd let them know how we build a real time feature, but we decided to say we wouldn't be able to build that tool for them or adapt methods to that use case.
Joseph Rueter: They wanted strings longer than just rotate the phone.
Run it in landscape. Even a tablet wouldn't
Aman Rawal: fit that use case. The other opportunity we had was, when a school teacher in U. S. reached out to us, he was building a game for his I think he was building a game for like just teachers in us, but, where you can, it's a game creator software where you can like, create games for your students, like assignments [00:26:00] and in the form of a game, and then, you, once you do that, basically you then sell it to the plan was to lend, sell it to schools where teachers can track their students progress and then create assignments and then send that to them using the software.
This is again, something that we couldn't do because it was done in unity. And, All of us, we didn't have any experience in unity, so it would have meant we would have to learn a lot more. And at that time, math was growing. So we wanted to focus on math. That's what we decided to not do that.
Joseph Rueter: That's cool.
And why do we call it math heads? It seems it comes across with all due respect to mental calculation. org math heads comes across Oh, I'll play that.
Aman Rawal: I think for the name, it was like, we were just a few of our friends were just sitting together and then, we were just telling them about the game and stuff, and then just brainstorming the names and then somebody said methods, and then we were like, no, what about methods instead?
We love maths. Our head, [00:27:00] we just want to focus on maths. Why not maths head? So I think we needed the domain as well. One of the domains wasn't available. So we decided to go with what was available. It was a precursor to multiplayer.
Joseph Rueter: Come on.
Aman Rawal: We don't want just one user, we, we want many.
Joseph Rueter: This isn't a binary. experience here. Oh, that's so fantastic. You've been on the hustle. It's grown well, you're listening to the community, you're building, you're enjoying it. What's next? More of the same?
Aman Rawal: One, one of the challenges that we have had is that it's like we all of us have day jobs, so it's hard to find time to regularly meet and do it.
So right now the main thing is to be able to just, even if it is something small, just try to sit, meet each other maybe once, a week and then discuss what we want to. What we want to do. we have a lot of things we want to build though. We definitely want to focus on monetization now. I think what we have done is we have [00:28:00] justified the tasks between us.
Like one person's just going to deal with the issue of monetization, how we can achieve that. The other person's going to deal with improving multiplayer. So make your own decisions, feel free to talk to others about what you're going to do, but you are responsible for it. So everyone has to be creative, come up with ideas.
To do it and one person is going to deal with how we can get users who have created an account But and basically how do we get users who have played a game to come back and play again? So that's mostly you know sending emails to the regular emails to them or sending emails when we release something new So building a whole email integration.
So I think, yeah, we're going to focus on these three verticals while also trying to meet up once a week if possible.
Joseph Rueter: Nice. And you're running the Google sign in. So you're get the email off the sign in. There's no sign up as it were.
Aman Rawal: yeah, it was the easiest for us to build. We do have integration with sign in with Facebook We just haven't launched it and there was a requirement for Facebook to be able to give them like a [00:29:00] business address They need like a proof with your name on it for one of the bills.
But yeah, I think home address doesn't count. So We just added integration and just stopped it. I think Google is good enough for now.
Joseph Rueter: Yeah, absolutely. Super curious. Any suggestions if you had your, you're at a conference, you just getting off the panel and an aspiring game creator comes up and goes I want to do what you guys did.
What kind of suggestions do you have for them in terms of how to think about and go about getting a game in the world?
Aman Rawal: I think. It always helps if you have a friend or somebody, to work with working yourself is at least for some people, it's definitely for me is very hard. You don't set like proper deadlines, you just keep delaying it.
If you're working with somebody and you're meeting up with them to do something, let's go to a cafe. You know that you have nothing else to do. If you have actually decided to go to a place to work, so that always helps to start again. And I think just [00:30:00] you don't have to, there's no like you have to just develop everything and then release it.
It's okay to release a very basic version, get that out, get some feedback, and then build on top of that release in small iterations rather than building old software. Because, that means there's less time for you to, just leave it in between and then do something else. If you have something small to do, you will do it and then just get it up.
Ben Hollier: Yeah, I definitely agree. It's good to have someone else to keep you accountable. when you're feeling lazy, you have someone who's just like, why haven't you done that yet? So yeah, that's good to keep you on track.
Joseph Rueter: Friend as project manager. That's what that is.
Ben Hollier: You could say that.
Aman Rawal: I guess one other thing, if you do have a game out there, it's very important to collect data on how the users are using it as soon as possible.
Discord helps us out, but then, Discord is a thousand users compared to 30, 000 users who use the game. So if a couple of people have suggested [00:31:00] something, this doesn't mean you should build it. You should track how the user is using the website. You should know what sort of game modes are more popular before deciding what to build next.
One example of this would be recently some people on discord said that it would be good to have another, a couple of other modes. Which is even difficult and hard, but then we saw in our tracking that our easy and medium modes are a lot more used than hard. So a lot of people find hard quite hard right now.
There's no point working on something just because you know a few users want it. So it's always good to look at the actual data how people are using a website before a thread and just taking suggestions.
Ben Hollier: Yeah, that's the thing about if you have a discord or something that's You have to be aware that these are, like, your power users, and they're really invested in the game and they want features, but you have to be aware that they are your power users, and they're not necessarily the kind of people that are just using it casually, and you have [00:32:00] to weigh that up, They really want very hard mode, but a guy just doesn't. Off the street or off of Google doesn't necessarily want very hard mode. They just want, to play a fun maths game.
Aaron Kardell: On our Mathler site, it's a, another math game. And I can just say we've had days where people will fill out our feedback form, we'll get two comments in a row.
This is too hard and followed by this is too easy, but we don't hear from the, probably a hundred people in the middle, Oh, right level of difficulty. Thank You So it's hard to filter out like what's real, right? Totally. But there
Joseph Rueter: we go. Easy, normal, easy, normal, hard, killer. So there's a little bit of pushing to you're a normal.
That's right. I think it's fantastic. [00:33:00] there's a load of humans who would be better served to play to learn math than anguish to learn math. And we're big fans of the play approach. This one's fun. it's just rip, and you can self titrate how hard it's going to be as you're coming into it.
So thanks for putting it out there. Thanks for iterating and, listening to the community and thinking about the normals. I'm just a normal when it comes to this, you engineers, thanks for what you guys do.
Aman Rawal: Yeah. Thank you. I'm glad you mentioned that about the approach for play to learn. I think develop to learn is another thing because Ben hates mental math, but he has, had to play every time he developed something.
So he's definitely improving now.
Ben Hollier: Ever since I implemented. The ELO system in multiplayer, like every time I play it, it's just going down and down. I think I'm gonna reach the bottom of ELO that you can ever get, because I, It's weird, [00:34:00] developing a MathHeads, MathHeads, mental math game and not enjoying mental maths.
Joseph Rueter: Yeah, it takes all types. I think you should build yourself a trailing board.
Aaron Kardell: It's just,
Joseph Rueter: it'll be fun. hey, thank you for being here. If folks want to find you on the interwebs, should we push them off to MathHeads. net, right?
Ben Hollier: Yeah, MathHeads. net.
Aaron Kardell: And then, do you want people reaching out to you personally or no?
Aman Rawal: I think, if anybody has any feedback or something, we're always happy to learn, especially if it's a bad feedback, just to know about the things that we can improve on. So I think the link is there in, on the website itself, support at methods. net.
Aaron Kardell: Or drop into the discord.
Aman Rawal: Yeah, actually, it's
Joseph Rueter: just light us up on discord.
this has been wonderful. Thanks for putting the game together and for joining us today. Thanks guys.
Ben Hollier: Great. Thank you.
Joseph Rueter: Thank [00:35:00] you.
