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“Words of Wisdom” is an initiative to document and celebrate the stories, insights, and wisdom of Singapore’s senior citizens. It's powered by Folklory, a service dedicated to preserving stories through audio podcasts, who will collaborate with 60 seniors aged 60 and above to create a series of 60 podcasts, each capturing a unique slice of Singapore’s rich history and culture. Find out more info at Folklory.com
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:24:02
Unknown
Hello there. This is Terence from folkloric. What you're about to listen to is a podcast from the Words of Wisdom Project, where we spoke to 60 Singaporeans over the age of 64 as 60 and captured the life lessons for the next generation. We hope you enjoy it.
00:00:24:04 - 00:00:28:03
Unknown
For.
00:00:28:05 - 00:00:54:04
Unknown
And we're here today. We're glad to do this for glory. And maybe the best way for us to start circulating is for you to introduce yourself and tell us what we're here to talk about today. Okay. Hi. I'm simply I turned 66 this year, and, I was originally from Penang, Malaysia. I migrated here in 1981 and started my career with the Singapore Economic Development Board.
00:00:54:06 - 00:01:18:03
Unknown
I got married. I now have a son who's now 39 years old. Really built my home here with my family, and, I, I worked in the Economic Development Board for 15 years, after which I left. And then I decided that I would be a freelance consultant in the area of organization development. And I just retired about four years ago.
00:01:18:03 - 00:01:39:21
Unknown
So very happy to be with you. Nice, nice. Congratulations. So, you know, I think may be a good place to start is to talk about your career. Like what actually was, what was the genesis of you joining the EDB? Like, what? What was it at that point of time that made you join the EDB and pursue that career path?
00:01:39:24 - 00:02:12:14
Unknown
Yeah. You know, this is in 1981, and I was just about to graduate, with a master's degree from the University of London. And at that time in Malaysia, for a Chinese girl, the opportunities weren't that great. I would say, you know, and, the Singapore government was very aggressive, to attend and from from the Asean countries, I suppose, you know, just what happened was that I was interviewed by the Public Service Division, Public Service Commission of Singapore, while I was in London.
00:02:12:16 - 00:02:37:04
Unknown
And, before I graduated, there were two in principal office on my left. And I was told that when I returned to Malaysia, just come down to Singapore, get interviews and then a final offer will be made. And that's exactly what happened. I was very impressed. So I decided, that I would joined the Economic Development Board, because they made me an offer.
00:02:37:04 - 00:03:02:08
Unknown
And I'm an economist by training, so there seem to be quite a great alignment, you know, and I must say, it has been a wonderful journey for me. I have been well, I learned a lot, I grew a lot, and I participated in many opportunities. Yeah. So that has been a real blessing for me. Yeah. How do you know that economics was your calling from the start or at that time there is no career development.
00:03:02:08 - 00:03:21:08
Unknown
And, I don't know, because my father spoke to me and he's quite a good mentor, actually. We were debating options. You know, I didn't like science, even though I did quite well for my O-levels in science, you know? And then he said, like, you can try economics. I said, like, what is it? Oh, like that? And at the time, many people didn't know it.
00:03:21:08 - 00:03:40:13
Unknown
But because Malaysia and Singapore are Commonwealth countries, actually we have free education at A-levels in UK, you know. Okay, so I learned about it and I like actually we are not a very rich family. I back then I said no, just let me go. After all the tuition fees free and a lot of Commonwealth students can work too.
00:03:40:15 - 00:03:59:21
Unknown
Look on weekends and pay my way, you know. And that's exactly what happened, you know. So I had the opportunity, which is very unusual at that time. It was 1976, you know, to be able to go to UK to do my A-levels for two years and then do my first degree and then a master's program. Yeah, I see, I see wow.
00:04:00:02 - 00:04:25:09
Unknown
So I mean, that's where it is. So for me, when I had the offers on KDB Economic Development, it seemed like, wow, this is a, economist dream come true. Macroeconomics was my favorite part of the course anyway, you know, and, it was lived out. I had a wonderful 15 years with them. Yeah. So. Yeah, but that, like, I mean, 15 years is by no small amount of time by any measure.
00:04:25:09 - 00:04:55:22
Unknown
Right? What do you think kept you motivated? Or at least what what explains your longevity to do? You know, be with the EDB for 15 years. Meaningful and purposeful. Actually, when I joined in 1981, we were still in the beginnings of, really constructing our, economic policy, you know, and ironically for the EDB, actually, I was one of 2 or 3 economists there.
00:04:55:23 - 00:05:38:07
Unknown
The most of the people that were engineers actually promoting industry. So it was a very rare opportunity. So I was looking into the as a young officer, and it was really quite amazing for me, you know, to be able to participate in, policy, meetings. You know, I got to meet ministers. Doctor Winsemius, Doctor Albert Winsemius, who was the economic advisor to Singapore at that time and, really get into the throes of developing what would later become our, high tech, high wage policy in the 1980s, you know, so I thought, I mean, he continued, I mean, we morphed, we changed, we went into regionalization, you know, the the whole Singapore storyline,
00:05:38:07 - 00:06:01:20
Unknown
you know, and every step of the way for me and my conviction EDB, I think we were the generation the is the data generation, you know, and, it was really meaningful to see that, the small things that we did that work had such, direct impact on creating jobs. I still remember that the light came in at that lead to my chairman was Mr. Philip you.
00:06:01:22 - 00:06:31:11
Unknown
And he always said that EDB may change our strategy, but one strategy, that one mission that never changes is that we are in the business of creating good and better jobs for successive generations of Singaporeans. So I love that. I mean, it's just like something beyond ourselves. And so yeah, so it's been very meaningful. You know, I think you mentioned that during a time like, you know, there was a very big mission and everything on there.
00:06:31:13 - 00:06:53:23
Unknown
What would you say was the most important skill that you picked up from working at EDB for that long that you could take and transfer to, you know, later on in your career as, as a consultant as well? And. Oh, I think we had a set of values from and, such value was there to dreamland and never see data.
00:06:54:00 - 00:07:18:22
Unknown
Okay. So I think that was it. I think your first job that profoundly impacts you. And I was very fortunate, I think, to have the first job that, really threw me in my whole person, you know, so this thing because one, one of and one of my, the leaders that really impacted me quite profoundly, that I worked for from 1985 until I left was Mr..
00:07:18:22 - 00:07:41:23
Unknown
Philip, you, you know, and then, the managing directors were Mr. Duncan. And you see all really courageous people, courageous men in them. And that was what I learned from their role model, dare to dream. And, and, never say die. You know, that the odds may be against us. Look at Singapore. That really the arts right up against us, you know?
00:07:42:00 - 00:08:10:24
Unknown
And, so we be on a lot of new things that, were pioneering, at that time and, where we don't have the answers. Yeah. You know, I know that article actually, you know, that was printed in today and it was entitled, the, you know, the wrong leadership, you know, and this is from Doctor Vinci because there was a meeting that we had with him where we were talking about restructuring our economic policy, know, and then everyone was like, oh, we were very successful.
00:08:10:24 - 00:08:32:22
Unknown
These are the 1930s, 1980s, right? I mean, I think this was successful. What how do we change, from a cost labor intensive strategy to, high wage, more high tech strategy? You know, that we need to sustain ourselves, you know, and, and, and and I still remember we looked around the table, though, and, and he said this that has remained in me up till now.
00:08:33:00 - 00:08:56:05
Unknown
In the land of the blind, no one right is King. You know, and to me, that really meant, you know, that we cannot have all the answers if we keep on asking, nor will it succeed, you know, you know, how do we know? How can we guarantee this will work? We are never going to get anywhere if we have, we if we are clear of our purpose and about our the reason why.
00:08:56:10 - 00:09:13:22
Unknown
Why are we doing what we are doing, you know, and then you learn along the way and a depth like just a debt. If it is, it is over. The the signs are showing us this is not looking at that. Well quickly adapt the agile. You know and that was my biggest takeaway and till today is still my biggest takeaway.
00:09:14:00 - 00:09:42:15
Unknown
And actually in that particular I have, I know they said yesterday and we are all for it, you know, literally. So I think it goes like that because we want the answers. You want all the guarantees because it's so much more istic now. Yeah. You know, there's so much more to lose. You know? And I think that, in a way that is always the challenge of successive generations, you know, the new generation, there's not so much to do.
00:09:42:18 - 00:09:59:21
Unknown
And also, you take a risk, you know, and then you see growing up and of course, we were so blessed to have our pioneer leaders, right. And, took us to where we are. But now for the new generation, the younger ones, you know, we already have a record of success, you know. So where do we go from here?
00:09:59:21 - 00:10:22:22
Unknown
And well, this is why we do something new and then all this quick recap goes for not you know, I mean a lot more to lose you know. But the thing is I, I also feel that if we don't keep a right balance of this debt dream a dare to do legacy day, we can't reinvent ourselves. And we are just a small country in a large world.
00:10:22:22 - 00:10:43:09
Unknown
You know, it doesn't take a lot to feed us in that sense that, so perhaps, you know, the appetite for restricting needs to increase a little. Yeah. So I think you said something earlier that, I thought was quite interesting. You said that, you know, your first job is very important because it molds you that. Right.
00:10:43:11 - 00:11:02:08
Unknown
So nowadays, you see a lot of young people, their job hopping a lot. You know, they spend less than a month here, two months here, three months there, and you load jobs. What do you think of of this trend of, you know, having to move around a lot and change jobs to, to gain experience.
00:11:02:10 - 00:11:30:07
Unknown
Depends on the reason. That's why I always start with the why. Why are you changing jobs? You know, so for me, my last position in EDB was as director, human resource, you know, so when you asked me, for example, how did I decide to go to become an economist? I didn't know it was so, but yet and I think even today, at school with career guidance, etc., we never really know.
00:11:30:09 - 00:11:54:05
Unknown
Is this the best fit? So when I was the Asia, for example, I also gave my people job rotation. But not every month. You know, you need to be in that job at least 18 months to get a feel for it, you know, and and my invitation to them and I invite them to take up a position is know what you are good at and what you enjoy doing and are passionate about.
00:11:54:07 - 00:12:18:24
Unknown
You know, because as you do the job, just look at what aspects of it, you know, that, really appeal to you. What expects really that, rebound you did already you can do that cannot do because you are really lousy at it and use that as information to inform you of what is the next posting that you would like to require that you would like to have exposure to?
00:12:18:24 - 00:12:40:06
Unknown
You know, so for me, if you think one month is too early to tell because there's a learning curve, you know, so stay with it, I would suggest. Yeah. And then just keep on defining for yourself what can I be best. It really is a great fit for me because for me I was I was privileged like that to want my career.
00:12:40:08 - 00:13:04:05
Unknown
I had jobs that I was good at and that I could contribute to. And, it enabled me to stay for the long term. Yeah. And I think you also mentioned about you know like having mentors and you know, actual relations, good relations would be funny with and all this. Yeah. Because of that.
00:13:04:05 - 00:13:31:18
Unknown
How what do you think. How do you think the relationships of people I work, how important has that been in your career or your life or fundamental? Do you know I'm still friends with so many people that worked from the offices that reported to me, to my peers, to my bosses in the field together 12 years ago or 11 years ago when we created this initiative, Defending your Initiative.
00:13:31:18 - 00:13:53:11
Unknown
It and you know, where we now mentor the young entrepreneurs, you know, the people who are, as we call it, make a difference, change our world, you know, of course, you know, and, and the community sustain, you know, so that's why I say that, that decision for me to move to Singapore and then to work for EDB profoundly impacted my life.
00:13:53:11 - 00:14:16:02
Unknown
And, the the bosses have remained colleagues and friends even after we have all, you know, most of us have left in different places. Very few of them very minority, have remained in the Economic Development Board, you know? So to me, relationships are at the core, of the work very when I'm 66, you know, I had asked myself, know what does it mean to Michelle?
00:14:16:02 - 00:14:54:12
Unknown
Right. And honestly, you know, now, as I go to the last lap of my life, I ask myself to what does it mean to die? Well, really? Yeah. And so for me to die well is to die without regrets. I had to be ready to lose life gratefully and graciously, you know? So, like the good of your initiative, I felt, was a wonderful platform for so many of us, you know, to contribute, the experiences that we have learned, the, the context that we have been provided with, you know, people that we know that we can now make connections to introduce to these young entrepreneurs who are just starting out on their journey,
00:14:54:12 - 00:15:11:20
Unknown
you know, and Mr. Williams of Warm, because he's so generous with his time with the people that he knows, opened doors for them, you know. And I think that's what it is about that we pay it forward. Yeah. We, we don't just like for ourselves, but like, you can bring it with us when we need us, you know.
00:15:11:22 - 00:15:42:22
Unknown
So I think so one of the things for me is that, people will remember, you know, how much what we did, actually, in terms of our systems, no one is going to thank me. Certainly. And thank you for setting up the career development system, you know, but I think they will remember how they felt when they worked with me, how they, how, you know, whether there was mutual respect, mutual enjoyment, you know, and I think, relationships are the only thing that we can carry in our hearts now when we talk to.
00:15:42:24 - 00:16:13:09
Unknown
So, I mean, over the years, how what has been the, the best way for you to, you know, keep in touch with all your friends or or, you know, ex-colleagues who have become friends as well. How do you stay in touch with them? Very naturally. And I think sometimes, especially for colleagues, you know, like, when you have a natural platform, like the initiative really was a pragmatic platform for us to come together and, and work together on something that's very meaningful to us.
00:16:13:09 - 00:16:32:12
Unknown
And also because unless I put myself in touch with a large proportion of my colleagues, you know, this is just intentionality. You know, I'll just make a point that, if it is a priority in life. And now that I'm retired. Yeah. Keeping in touch is not as complicated or as as as challenging as when I was working full time.
00:16:32:12 - 00:17:03:21
Unknown
Right. Okay. So yeah, that has been good in terms of like, character traits and values. What, what a character traits and values that are most important to you in your circle of friends. I think, you know, one one key thing for us is, for many of my friends, like, you know, is, No, sir. I think one of the key things and any of my friends are, Christians, like I am, you know, so there is a commonality.
00:17:03:21 - 00:17:27:13
Unknown
And, so when we think back of, I'll say, for example, you know, what does it mean, you know, to be living in the world, you know, and if I can categorize my faith is really loving, God is love. And, so that is very important. And how do we live it out in a very practical way, you know, to compassion, to journeying with others or even the world.
00:17:27:14 - 00:18:05:04
Unknown
That's why I don't like that. I say, what is love make visible? You know, the work of our hands is actually an expression of the best of who we are, what we believe in, what we find purposeful and meaningful, you know? And so to me, actually, that is became my personal tagline. Then I became an organization development on Sultan as well, that I had the privilege to taste that because I enjoyed the people I worked with, I, I loved the work that I did, you know, and because it had such an impact that I could see and, and I feel that it is also a human right to know.
00:18:05:06 - 00:18:30:20
Unknown
Oh, no. And and that that's what I'm created for actually, you know, that the, the work on my hands is, is an expression of love, you know, and, and it saddens me very much when I see people doing work that they are not very good at at all. In fact they are very bad, you know, and and they're smoking day and night in such a, effortful way, to accept the living, you know, as I'm talking about, middle class people and really went.
00:18:30:22 - 00:18:52:16
Unknown
So one of the privileges I have is that I'm middle class. And really, I don't have to think about survival, you know? But I noticed that many, many young people, even some middle class who don't have to do it for survival, they don't think that there's another option for them, you know? So I feel that, we need to understand who we are, who we are designed to be.
00:18:52:18 - 00:19:19:12
Unknown
And, there is a certain type of work that brings out the best of us. And to me and our professional, that's one of the things that we need to help, the young people that we work with to discover for themselves. They have to own the journey themselves, but we can help them along the way. Like I say, from from the career development opportunities that they go through, you know, to help them discover, along the lines.
00:19:19:14 - 00:19:39:15
Unknown
So this thing about what you said about the characteristic of young people job hopping, if you are applying for job hopping sick, then stop it, you know, but if it is part of, very intentional, self-directed, very process, then yeah. Okay. But, you you can't make a decision on a job within a few months, to be very honest.
00:19:39:15 - 00:19:58:00
Unknown
You know, you have to stick with it long enough to know. Yeah, sure. Okay. I mean, you touched on something that I do want to ask about, as of which is the topic of love. Right. So love means a lot of things to different people. Of course. What is what is love mean to you?
00:19:58:02 - 00:20:44:15
Unknown
For me is an expression of, connection. It's one. And, doing some doing something as a practical that brings, connection with the other. Yeah. And also to be able to journey alongside someone and that's the most difficult part of promoting them. And I think this also makes what, you know, well, you know, like what is love in a Christian context, you know, is really like, well, totally sacrificial and so on that but even simple things about working alongside someone who may be very different from me, you know, but seeing in the other person, someone who deserves to be recognized as meaning the it created in the image of God, you
00:20:44:15 - 00:21:15:04
Unknown
know, and, who deserves dignity and who deserves my respect because he's created in the image of God, you know, and it's turned into when that when we have, such a deep definition of love. But, I mean, that's one thing to learn and grow each day. So for me, it always it's really like a journey alongside, people that have come into my life, you know, with all the peaks and downs, with all the wonderful gifts as well as there.
00:21:15:04 - 00:21:41:14
Unknown
So those who know all of us have them, you know, and, to be able to create a safe space, for them to swell as themselves and be vulnerable and, not feel that, they, me to be small in my eyes. Isa. Yeah. So I had another opportunity when I was a consultant, you know, I guess not all opportunity wise, but I was director of human resources for sure, you know, because people come to you.
00:21:41:14 - 00:22:03:00
Unknown
I mean, career is important to many young people, you know, and you see them at their most vulnerable when they think that they are healing or they have made a mistake, you know, you know, how do you journey with them? And you make a distinction that sometimes that, territory, territory states that, you know, that need to be corrected, but yet, you know, how do I do that?
00:22:03:00 - 00:22:35:11
Unknown
Correction. That, in a way that still honors the person and honors that journey. Not easy, but I think it's something. Yeah. To to learn to listen to. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, I mean, interesting to talk about that because I do want to ask, like, what advice would you give to young people in their pursuit of love in the form of, you know, finding a passion in their lives or, you know, pursuing romantic partner or something?
00:22:35:13 - 00:23:02:20
Unknown
What advice would you give to a young person, a romantic partner? I won't go into life. So. Okay, this is a different type of love. Yeah, sure. But, Woman as I said, like, you know, stay where you are and think back, you know, be a little bit more intentional. I think from your young days, you will discover that there are certain things that you can spend a lot of time doing and be actively immersed in it, you know?
00:23:03:00 - 00:23:27:09
Unknown
So my son is an engineer, you know, he figured it out when he was young. I used to spend hours drawing and all robots love doing his Lego sets, you know, creating things out of nothing. You know, they are simple things that if we would just pull and think about it, you know, get our life is always speaking to us because in Singapore we are so noisy and busy.
00:23:27:09 - 00:23:44:07
Unknown
You know, we don't force and hear our lives speak to us, and then we impose things on it and all that. Maybe actually not so helpful, you know? So maybe you are, and you may not get it all. And then, as I say, you know, in every opportunity that you are given. So I will say a few things.
00:23:44:07 - 00:24:09:01
Unknown
Number one, just make friends and build relationships in those places, you know, because that's what it's about. And also we, we, we think community actually work is really quite meaningless. Yeah. And then observe yourself. Well, you know allies. Yeah. That when, when you do something you really like. Wow. You know, this is me. You know, this is like, it's almost at least like a tiny know.
00:24:09:03 - 00:24:34:05
Unknown
Then that gives you a really an initial, thinking of a this is what you're really passionate about, you know, then listen to feedback from people. Are you particularly good at it to think about skills? You know, but sometimes it's not even skills. Your presence, you know, I didn't know until one of my clients, for example, introduced me by saying discipline, you know, when she misses work.
00:24:34:05 - 00:24:56:05
Unknown
Well, we tend to do more things than we normally do. I didn't even know that. You know, it was a surprise for me, you know? So. So sometimes was we ourselves, our presence. There is a gift in it. But if we came to, devalue it, you know, because it's not the skill that we mistakenly took years to learn, you see.
00:24:56:07 - 00:25:20:17
Unknown
Hey, but who you are and who shows up to me and you. Authenticity is is equally important, especially when you go to the higher rungs of leadership. You know, it's the skills you have, you know, and, and I would also urge the young people to not devalue yourself and think about, you know, what people say about, you know, needing to tell, you know, are you listening?
00:25:20:17 - 00:25:46:05
Unknown
You're, you know, you're brilliant in connecting different, you know, are you this wonderful, you know, see it as your contribution to any team that you, work with. Yeah. And yeah. And keep forward. I think as you grow older I think that becomes more important. Sure, sure. Yeah. So I mean for you, you know, I think that's very valuable advice for young people.
00:25:46:05 - 00:26:08:10
Unknown
And there's been a lot of good advice here for a young person. This thing. But for you, if you could go back in time to yourself at the start of your career and give yourself a young version of yourself one piece of advice, what would that piece of advice be? Yeah, like I've been pondering this for quite a while, you know, and I'm wondering whether the young kids they can be.
00:26:08:10 - 00:26:24:24
Unknown
What? Listen, I was a very fancy young girl. I think I'm one of those people who don't want to go back to when I'm in the 20s and 30s. Okay. Youth. Yeah. But anyway, because most people in the 60s, I wish I was 20 again, I say no, I don't know, because I gave for the younger version of myself.
00:26:24:24 - 00:26:46:00
Unknown
I felt like there was too much to prove. I still, you know, and, I was trying hard to impress and I got, I got it. I mean, I was almost successful, but I think I paid a high price for it. You know, I went to burnouts, you know, and I was angry about a lot of things. And I don't think I was emotionally that healthy.
00:26:46:02 - 00:27:05:01
Unknown
Yeah, but externally, it seemed very successful that, you know. So I would say, you know, now I have a little line up. I think, you know, I have to be kind to my younger self and see there's a season for different things, you know? So I think it's in the energy of the young people in the 20s. I observe the young people.
00:27:05:01 - 00:27:23:11
Unknown
I would be too. Okay. Yeah. You can't help it. But to be driven because you're trying to find your place in the world, you see, you know, it's only when you fall a little place that you can begin to let go. A little, you know, but the earlier you can, the better. So the thing that I have for myself is, can I come to a place where I have nothing to prove?
00:27:23:13 - 00:27:56:10
Unknown
Nothing to lose, nothing to hide. And now in my 60s ready to die you know. Yeah. But it's still bright when you're in your early years you know, because you're trying to establish yourself. Helped yourself. Nothing to prove you know. Yeah. Yeah. And then then to lose when you do have your location. So now I can say that more easily because you know, but I think that maybe is the the go to holy grail of career or self-actualization.
00:27:56:12 - 00:28:12:23
Unknown
Because when we can really say these four things I think that is true freedom, you know, and, and in a sense that especially the last part, when you're ready to die, that's like many of us older people, we always go back to faith in a way like, you know, he's like, hey, what's next after this? You know, is this all there is?
00:28:13:02 - 00:28:32:17
Unknown
You know, in life, you know, so these are important questions that I think we come back to again and again, you know, so for me, it's all all a holistic thing. And, Yeah, that's all for those who have a faith, you know, knowing that you're, God's beloved child, for example. Yeah, I mean, me may be enough for us.
00:28:32:23 - 00:28:55:06
Unknown
Yeah, but I also think that when we are young, it's almost like a season. And, we need to allow ourselves that. Driven this in a way too long can really deplete you, you know? And that's why at one stage in my career, I was depleted trying to do all this, that I went into a major burnout, you know, which I would not wish on my worst enemy.
00:28:55:08 - 00:29:23:04
Unknown
So to manage your energy, you know. So have a little, retreat system for yourself when you are really going too much overboard. In in trying to prove yourself. Because is it worth the price to pay? You know, and, and then has your own mechanism. And that was my, my crystal actually in, in my consulting work, in my last 20, in the last 15 years of my work, was that if two I maintain, okay.
00:29:23:06 - 00:29:48:03
Unknown
How can I maintain, like doing well, performing well at work, and yet still having a zest for life. You know, the passion in things that matter, you know, and relationships that are healthy. So that became my my sort of quest to find they work. Well. How do you manage this? And, that became the focus of a lot of my work in that last 15 years can be done, but, we need to be more disciplined and more self-aware.
00:29:48:05 - 00:30:11:00
Unknown
I think sometimes we are not even aware that we are burning out. Yes. Those, that the the the frightening thing about being fucked up in the career that. Yeah. Self-awareness. Self-awareness is very very tiny is the key. Yeah. Okay okay. But yeah. Thanks so much. Struggling for opening up and going down memory lane and sharing a lot about your career.
00:30:11:02 - 00:30:22:02
Unknown
So welcome. Thank you.
00:30:22:04 - 00:30:51:01
Unknown
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