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The Best Ever Podcast with Scott Eblin is your insider’s guide to what it takes to lead at the highest level at work, at home, and in your community. Each week, Scott sits down with remarkable leaders for real, revealing conversations about the mindset shifts, self-management habits, and everyday routines that fuel extraordinary leadership impact. Drawing on his 25 years of experience as a top executive coach, Scott brings a coach’s lens to every episode to help you bridge the gap between intention and action.
Scott - 00:00:10:
Welcome to Best Ever, the show where we explore how effective self-management creates the foundation for positive leadership outcomes. I'm Scott Eblin, and in every episode, I sit down with notable leaders to uncover the routines, mindset shifts, and strategies that have helped them lead at the highest level, and the difference that's made for their organizations, families, and communities. Today, I'm joined by Lara Lee. Lara is an experienced independent director, board and committee chair, chief executive, and Fortune 50 officer with extensive international experience and a focus on innovation and culture as drivers of growth. She also leads the corporate consulting firm Creative Renewal. Lara is a recognized expert in leveraging the intersection of culture, strategy, and execution. She's also earned a reputation as an operator who has delivered P&L impact in high growth restructuring and turnaround situations at Harley-Davidson, Lowe's Home Improvement, and multiple other firms. Lara brings to the boardroom multi-industry experience and currently serves on the boards of publicly traded WD-40 company and privately held companies, Liberty Safe and Rather Outdoors. Lara is clearly making an impact as she was recently named Director of the Year for Enhancement of Culture and Inclusion by the Corporate Directors Forum. Mara, thanks so much for taking the time to talk with me on Best Ever.
Lara - 00:01:36:
Great to see you, Scott.
Scott - 00:01:37:
Awesome. So we're going to talk a little bit about a little bit of a history we have together later, but I want to start out at Sort of at the beginning, I alluded to this in the intro just now, you've had this multifaceted career, domestic and international, senior executive, consultant, board member in various industries. We're going to get to a lot of that in this conversation. What were the early life experiences that set you on such a rich and diverse path in your career? Looking back, you know, what do you think the, the sparks that led to everything you've done.
Lara - 00:02:14:
Well, Scott, I'm too old to care about dating myself. So I'll just say that, you know, I grew up at a time when the Vietnam War was raging. And that was very disturbing. Obviously, for a young child, it was the first war to really be televised. And I also came from a family of folks who had, you know, traveled pretty extensively around the world for various reasons. My grandmother was an intrepid traveler on freighter ships, you know, in the 50s. And my dad put himself through school and then, you know, erected radio towers in Iran and Africa and, you know, my mom and so on. So I kind of felt myself a citizen of the world. And I was seeing this very disturbing, you know, situation in the world. And so I really was driven from an early age to want to do something that would connect people, build bridges. You know, the feeling that if you could build relationships across the things that seem to divide us, that maybe we could have a more peaceful and flourishing world. And that, you know, we're all citizens of the world. You know, it's one family, one world was kind of the way I grew up. And that's propelled me in one way or another throughout my career.
Scott - 00:03:27:
I love the fact that you started that way and especially that word connection because it's such a perfect segue to. So much of what I want to talk about today. I mentioned in the intro that You're an expert at this intersection of culture and strategy and execution. Want to really zero in on the cultural aspect, you know, that Venn diagram of the three. You've written a lot. You've done a lot of public speaking. I have a bit of a personal history with you, which we'll talk about. I know for sure from everything I know about you that you're very performance oriented. But you're also very people oriented. And that work needs to be about connecting with meaning and having a sense of meaning. Professionally, when did you make that connection? When did you come to that conclusion? I mean, you saw it as a young... Woman, you know, traveling with your parents, but... As your career developed, when did you really lock in on that connection around meaning?
Lara - 00:04:30:
It's an interesting question, Scott. I would say that for personally, meaning was always very important. So I had this idealistic vision, connect people across the things that divide them. I decided to become a Chinese major because I was good at languages, but it was at a time when everyone thought Japan would be taking over the world. And China was barely just open. And I thought, someone needs to go work with those people. So why not me? And this idea that I would study Chinese and then I would go to business school thinking that commerce and trade historically has been what connects people. So this was a pretty idealistic vision that propelled me into my early career. And there were some twists and turns where it didn't seem to be on track. And then it got back on track. But that was very much my self-motivation. In parallel, I would say that our education system at the time, and I would venture to say even up till today, often it beats that out of us. It makes it very much about the logic and the mind and the function and the skill set and not about the human side of things, not about the heart connection, not connecting to meaning and purpose. That's become more prominent in recent times. At least in the verbiage that people use. But a lot of companies, when push comes to shove, really revert to the hard skills and the hard performance. So I would say for me, the arc of my development over time was to, and I don't think this is unusual, right? Focus first on functioning, right? If you think of three aspects of human experience, will or motivation, functioning and capability. Inner state, inner being state. So, you know, first it was all about the functioning, acquire skills, acquire capabilities, acquire knowledge and experience and best practices. And, you know, then it became, you know, with other people understanding, oh, you know, I really need to be a good leader and a good manager and a good transformation agent in a lot of the work I did. I need to connect with the heart side of people. I need to figure out how to connect them to purpose and meaning for themselves, connect us all to a bigger sense of purpose and meaning. And then eventually, you know, it became a lot more about the inner work, right, on myself and helping other people to develop their inner state so that they can become, have more equanimity and, you know, be better able to self-manage in the ups and downs. But maybe I'm getting ahead of ourselves.
Scott - 00:07:11:
Well, you know, you're going where I want to go for sure. Couple of definitional requests. Inner work is a term we hear a lot. What does that mean to you, inner work?
Lara - 00:07:23:
Are a number of different dimensions to it. There's a spiritual dimension and there's a... Inner state self-management dimension, let's call it that. So inner state is being able to be very in touch with what is happening with you on the inside that is very likely affecting how you're perceiving the world and how you're showing up in the world. And that takes practice, right? And then the spiritual side is connecting to what enlivens you. It's what gives meaning and purpose beyond the external, beyond the achievement or visible impact on the world. You could call it your reason for existence, your connection to a divine source. Different people think about it in different ways.
Scott - 00:08:11:
Sense of purpose. Yeah. Why am I here?
Lara - 00:08:14:
Yeah.
Scott - 00:08:15:
Yeah. Yeah. We're just going to jump all over the place here. We're going deep quickly here, which I'm not surprised that we're doing that.
Lara - 00:08:23:
It's what we do, Scott.
Scott - 00:08:25:
I'm loving it.
Lara - 00:08:25:
It's our history.
Scott - 00:08:26:
So let me just, we've alluded to it too many times. So Lara and I know each other from, gosh, the mid-2000 teens, I guess, right? 2015 or somewhere in that range.
Lara - 00:08:36:
Yeah, 17, 18.
Scott - 00:08:37:
Yeah, in that range. And I was selected by you to be your executive coach. And we'll come back to that. But that's the history that we have together.
Lara - 00:08:46:
A very good choice.
Scott - 00:08:47:
Thank you so much. I felt the same way about you as a client. I want to... I said I had two definitional requests. One was inner work, and I want to go deeper on that in a minute. Equanimity was the other word that you used, which is a word that's probably on the SAT, right? What's equanimity mean to you? And how do you think about it in the context of work life.
Lara - 00:09:17:
There's an even more obscure word I like better.
Scott - 00:09:20:
Okay, good.
Lara - 00:09:20:
But I'll explain why. It came from my great mentor who you may have interacted with briefly, Carol Sanford. And it's imperturbability. Imperturbability. Why it's a great word is that it's not widely used. So, you know, you can stay very focused on a specific meaning. And to be imperturbable is to be unshakable, you know, immovable amid the ups and downs and, you know. Throes of life, you know, whatever comes out, you're able to self-stabilize, right? You're able to like like the buoy atop the waves, right? You're able to ride them and have your own sense of equanimity, of balance. Of continuity, despite what's happening around you. I think that's an extremely important quality to cultivate. It's very hard.
Scott - 00:10:14:
Yeah. So how have you done that? It's hard to do. What works for you in that space?
Lara - 00:10:20:
It has a lot to do with self-knowledge, which comes from self-reflection.
Scott - 00:10:26:
Mm-hmm.
Lara - 00:10:28:
Right? Being able to observe what kind of energy is happening inside you. Am I being reactive? Am I acting from ego? Am I acting from fear? Really being able to examine your inner state, what is causing me to react? And it has a lot to do with connecting with your emotions, which, frankly, I didn't grow up in that kind of household or that kind of culture. It's been something that's taken a long time. And I've had helpers of different kinds along the way. But it really does come down to reflection, either with a person, a trusted person, a professional of some kind, or with yourself, journaling. I do a lot of journaling. And a lot of it is about examining, reflecting upon a situation I had intended to go a certain way. Here's how I thought about it. Here's how I felt about it. Here's what I did about it. Here's what happened. And attempting to reflect deeply without judgment. That's the other thing. So reflection without judgment. The goal is discernment. So I want to be able to try to see clearly what was happening, what happened externally, what was going on within me. And from that, then learn, you know, are there patterns? Are there things that, you know, make me become reactive? Are there people, you know, with whom I could seek to have a different kind of relationship situations? But I don't think you can develop it without reflection.
Scott - 00:12:01:
Right. You mentioned the journaling. I've always felt that one of the big benefits of journaling is not so much. The writing down in the moment on that particular day, although that's really helpful. I get, over the years, I've gotten more benefit from going back and reading what I've written. You talked about patterns, you know, and seeing the patterns of what was on my mind. And what's really interesting is how did things actually turn out? You know, whatever I was, you know, anxious about or, you know, ruminating on or whatever. And it's that line about, you know, I don't know, I can't remember who said it, but you... Spend so much time worrying about things that never actually happened, you know, and the journaling kind of points it out. Yeah. Yeah.
Lara - 00:12:46:
Yeah. There are, so one of the ways I journal, a primary way now, and this has been. Evolving over time is using frameworks. And a number of these frameworks are things I also learned from Carol, my mentor. And the value of a framework is that I can think about a situation in advance using a framework. And then I can reflect using the same framework. And that's part of what helps me stay out of judgment and have discernment and stay out of things like making up stories, fabrication, projection, you know, having a selective memory about what I was actually thinking, you know.
Scott - 00:13:28:
Right. Right. Do you have multiple frameworks or is there a go-to framework?
Lara - 00:13:33:
I do. There are many. It's a whole sort of system, systematics of frameworks. But there are some basic ones. You know, there's one that has to do with understanding, with looking. You know, normally we, in our, we're all kind of trained in a classical science cause effect Newtonian mindset, right? And so we're looking at a very small slice of what's going on, you know, cause effect, action, reaction. Well, you know, we know from lots of sources, ancient wisdom and quantum science and other things that that's not really how the world works. The world works in fields of energy, and it's not always a direct cause and effect. So there's a framework where you're looking upstream at the sources of your thinking. You know, why am I starting out thinking about this thing in this way, not some other way? So like, what's the source of the frame of mind I have? Then how am I going to think about it? Right. Then what, how am I going to make, you know, bring fresh thinking, not follow an old pattern. And then what will be my actions and my desired results, outcomes, and effects. And the value of separating results, outcomes, and effects is that you're, you know, it, it leads to more precision and discernment. So a result is like, you know, what we would classically call a cause and effect, right? You know, I called Scott, we had a conversation, we agreed we'd do a podcast, right? Okay. Then the outcome is the finished podcast and what it represents in terms of a point of view or a body of work or some learnings to go out into the world. The effect is when people encounter it, what does it do in their lives? You know, what's the ripple effect that it has? And you can't always directly perceive the effects, but you can, over time, think more deeply about what are the effects I'm seeking to produce and then work backwards to, okay, what are the actions I'm going to take? And then that's what you can reflect on, all three things, results, outcomes, and effects.
Scott - 00:15:31:
Yeah, totally. I don't know. Frankly, I don't remember if we worked on this back in the day together or if you're- Remember it, I have a framework, framework there you go. Called the life GPS, and it really turns on three questions. How am I when I'm in peak performance mode, what's that look like for me, how do I know myself to be, what are the practices or routines in different domains, physical mental relational, spiritual that keep me. You more in the zone, you know, in terms of performing. And if I was showing up that way, what outcomes would I expect to see, you know, in different arenas of life? At work, for sure, but also at home and just in the community and world in general, right? So there's some connection points there, I think, to what you just described. A lot of connection, yeah. I want to ask one more question here as we go deep quickly and then circle back to some of your career experiences and get the lessons learned from some of those. You talked a minute ago about that internal awareness, but also that sense of connection to the source, you know. And you described it multiple different ways.
Lara - 00:16:42:
Mm-hmm.
Scott - 00:16:44:
What sort of practices or routines do you have around those bigger life questions? Essentially, why am I here? Those questions of purpose and connecting with the bigger universal energy source.
Lara - 00:17:00:
There are two different aspects to it for me. And at some point, I can share with you a mantra that relates to this, if you like. But for the time being, we'll say there's a piece that has to do with purposefulness in the world and feeling that I'm making a meaningful contribution. And when it comes to that, it's a combination of knowing myself, you know, trying to really deeply know and understand myself and what I have to uniquely bring and not try to be somebody else or what I think I should be, right, which is also, you know, a journey over time for most of us. And then being able to look out into the world and say, you know, what's needed, not just in my immediate vicinity, but in the bigger picture, what is that calling forth for me? What should I pursue to where I feel like I'm contributing to what's nearby, right? Something proximate, a team, a board, a company, et cetera. But how is that going to ripple out and have those effects in the bigger picture? How can I do this immediate work in a way that's going to ripple out? And if I'm constantly reminding myself of that, you know, then I'm feeling connected to meaning and purpose. To go even farther is to see something that's not being done and decide to take it on and sort of make a promise to yourself that is a promise you don't know how to fulfill. But you can see that it's something that's needed and then you pursue it, right? You pursue it with commitment and intensity. And that's very motivating when you believe it's connected to something that's needed in the world.
Scott - 00:18:35:
Right.
Lara - 00:18:35:
On the more inner and spiritual side, right? You know, I think of that as enlivening my spirit and something that has to, you know, be regenerated with practices. And so I come from a Christian tradition, so I have a Christian faith. I also am very, as you know, a curious person and very open-minded. And so I explore things from various other faith traditions. But also for me, it's like time in nature, you know, connecting to the source of creativity, which has the divine within it from my perspective. Art, you know, music, things that really enliven my spirit. And I can use that to make a connection to a richer source, you know, of spirit in the world.
Scott - 00:19:27:
Yeah. I can completely relate to that. One of the notes on my own life GPS currently is to do what I can to be a channel for creation, for creative spirit, you know, and keep that channel as open as I can, you know, and not get so full of stuff that I don't. I'm not open or available to whatever the creative spark might be.
Lara - 00:19:51:
I was thinking about that right before we got on this podcast.
Scott - 00:19:56:
There you go.
Lara - 00:19:57:
How to be a channel. Because, I aspire to that too. I mean, I don't really want to do anything that I do for my own ends and purposes or ego. Maybe that's a sign of maturity. I'd like it to be something that actually is meaningful in the world because it has a positive effect on other people and on systems.
Scott - 00:20:18:
I love it. Okay, there's so many places we could go right now. I want to circle back. To China because when you were talking about just a minute ago, filling a need that hasn't been filled. That was kind of the China experience was one of those for you, right? So this has been something in your life for a long time.
Lara - 00:20:39:
Yeah, I'm going to study Chinese because no one else is.
Scott - 00:20:43:
How long were you in China and what years were you there?
Lara - 00:20:47:
So I studied Chinese undergrad and I spent time in Taiwan during that period. And then in grad school, I did a joint MBA and master's in international affairs with a focused on China and East Asia and studied in Beijing. This was before Tiananmen Square.
Scott - 00:21:05:
Yeah. Wow.
Lara - 00:21:06:
It was that long ago. I mean, really, the country was so undeveloped. I mean, you can't.
Scott - 00:21:10:
Late 70s, 80s.
Lara - 00:21:11:
Imagine how different it was. Yeah. 88.
Scott - 00:21:14:
Okay.
Lara - 00:21:14:
So, you know, you could barely see a car on the road. I mean, it was I'm so I feel so fortunate that I was there at that time. And then I lived in Hong Kong for a bit. And then in my early career, I spent a lot of time all over Asia working for what's now EY and then Otis Elevator, Arco Chemical. So I was traveling frequently around China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, living in Singapore, going to different places.
Scott - 00:21:46:
Okay. And you eventually ended up at Harley Davidson. And, um, You were one of the key executives behind what is known as HOG, the Harley Owners Group. And I've read some of your recent writings and looked at some of your talks. And you talk about an organization's stakeholders. Customers would be one. Harley riders would be one. As co-creators of value. And, um, you've gained, you know, you're known within people who follow this kind of work as really being an innovator in this space with the HOG Group. First of all, describe HOG a little bit for the folks that maybe aren't familiar with it. Let's just start with that. Tell us what HOG. What it was, how it got started.
Lara - 00:22:40:
Well, so I need to clarify some points. There are many people who claim to be the father of HOG.
Scott - 00:22:48:
Okay, or the mother.
Lara - 00:22:49:
And I was not. I was not the father or the mother of HOG. Actually, but it's interesting. And I'll tell you why I became a student of HOG. And I'll explain what it was. But I think it's useful to tell the story. So HOG was conceptualized at a time when Harley Davidson was on the verge of going out of business. It was a very dire time for the company. And the executives went to an offsite with a brilliant strategist. And they were looking at, you know, like, what do we have that we can monetize? And there was like nothing except the customer base. So they figured out. And at the time, you know, the people who ride motorcycles in general, a lot of them like to gather, like to ride together, like to do things together. But at the time. You know, the available. Means of doing that were like Hell's Angels. Right?
Scott - 00:23:46:
Yeah.
Lara - 00:23:47:
You know, so if you weren't into that flavor of gathering, you know, there wasn't really an alternative. So they're like, okay, well, all we have is our customers, but people like to get together and there's not an alternative. So we're going to create this Harley owners group, HOG, and we're going to make it a membership club. We're going to give people the opportunity to pay dues and that will literally get us cash to buy us a year. And in a year, we need to earn back, you know, their renewal. And if we can do that now, we have, you know, some cash flow that'll keep the company going. Like that was truly the original idea. You know, from there, it took on many other dimensions. Part of why I'm sort of known for talking about HOG is that when I came into the company after working on the international business, I became an entrepreneur. So over a 10-year period, I was given all these like strategic problems where we know we need to do something about fill in the blank, but we haven't quite figured it out. Can you go figure this out? Right. And, and so part of what I did was really go around and decode everything that had made the company so successful. I came in when it was kind of. It had survived near death and was on the resurgence, but it was still less than a $500 million company. And so it was like, okay, we have a loyal customer base, but it's small. It's heavily male. I mean, 9% or so of our motorcycles were sold to women. They're getting one year older every year. We need younger people. And so what do we do about that? Designed and developed a rider training business from scratch that had a very unique business model. And it was unique and it was successful because learning from HOG, what it did was look at the entire stakeholder ecosystem. Who are all the folks who could either be included or excluded? In the way that we go about this? And how do we try to bring everyone in as much as possible, leverage everyone's strengths, make sure everyone is getting some of what they need, right? So that collectively, you know, we have a better outcome, we grow the pie. And so with Rider's Edge, the Rider Training Program. We did that. It was a it was dealer based. So dealers were getting access to new customers, but they provided their parking lots. The Motorcycle Safety Foundation could have felt threatened by what we did. We partnered and used their curriculum, but wrapped our experience around it. State motorcycle programs, they were different state by state. We had to partner with them. We figured out how to do training and use their existing instructor base, but also attract new instructors into their instructor base from our ranks of existing customers and so on and so forth. You know, and so some of the principles I learned from how HOG was designed were principles I used then for Rider's Edge and the museum and a whole series of startup businesses within Harley that became the enthusiast services division. But the key element, I would say, was understanding that when you're designing an ecosystem, right, a growth ecosystem, if you will, you can't be looking at transactional value exchange. Right. It's relational. It's over time. And there are many sources of value. A dealer wants to be at the forefront. They want status. Right. That an instructor wants to give back. They want the opportunity to do that. You know, motorcycle safety foundation wants integrity. I mean, there are things that people want and sources and types of value that can be exchanged that are much beyond the financial. And that's really the secret sauce of designing that kind of offering. It's. It's not actually hard. It just requires a very different kind of thinking. And that's what we are really good at in that period when I was at Harley.
Scott - 00:27:47:
As you describe that, my mind is going to Stanford Business School, the design thinking movement, you know, that starts with. What's the customer want or need, right?
Lara - 00:28:00:
Mm-hmm.
Scott - 00:28:01:
Did you think about it that way? I mean, you're very stakeholder focused. I mean, you had dealers, you had... Riders, you had instructors. I mean, lots of different stakeholder groups.
Lara - 00:28:11:
Riders, instructors, state program. Yeah.
Scott - 00:28:13:
Yeah.
Lara - 00:28:14:
Absolutely. And part of what's important in that human-centered design, which I'm very immersed in because when I left Harley, I went to a firm that did that kind of work, is that you're understanding not just the superficial or functional wants and needs, but you're understanding the psychological and emotional wants and needs. And that's how you get to things like... Status or integrity or, you know, for the customers, we did a lot of deep work with customers and it was, you know, primarily it was people who are fans of the brand already. They, they, they like the values, freedom, adventure, individuality, but they're looking for self-actualization. They're looking to overcome a challenge to prove something to themselves for a lot of them. And so we, we actually designed in very specific elements of the course experience that would really heighten the delivery of those elements.
Scott - 00:29:14:
Abraham Maslow would have been proud of.
Lara - 00:29:16:
Maslow would have been proud. Yeah. And for me, this was actually part of my own journey into more deeply understanding psychology of people and how to use that understanding in a way that wasn't manipulative, right?
Scott - 00:29:32:
Right.
Lara - 00:29:32:
But was actually delivering different kinds of value.
Scott - 00:29:35:
Something that people valued. Yeah.
Lara - 00:29:37:
Exactly.
Scott - 00:29:38:
Yeah.
Lara - 00:29:38:
And it paid off. I mean, we used to get fan mail. I would personally get fan mail saying, you changed my life. You know, this is the best thing that ever happened. In one of our very first courses, this young woman from Chicago came and asked the dealer in Racine, Wisconsin, if she could camp out at his dealership on the property because she couldn't afford a hotel, but she was determined to take this course. I mean, there were like wild stuff that happened. It was really tremendous.
Scott - 00:30:06:
So you were at Harley a couple of decades ago, roughly.
Lara - 00:30:10:
15 years I left in 2007.
Scott - 00:30:12:
Okay. So a decade and a half. Since then, and especially from what I'm reading in the last several years, Harley's really struggling. I guess a lot of people diagnosed it as their core rider group is aging out of riding big, heavy bikes, right? Your company, your consulting company is called Creative Renewal. They probably need some. If you were... Parachuting into Harley to help them out, what would be the first thing you'd do today?
Lara - 00:30:44:
Well, you know, I'm loathe to go, you know, too deep because I know too much.
Scott - 00:30:51:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lara - 00:30:52:
Let me put it that way.
Scott - 00:30:53:
Yeah.
Lara - 00:30:54:
But I think, you know, in the period when I left, a lot of people left. And I think what happened for a number of reasons was that they really lost the culture, the stakeholder-oriented, customer-centric culture. And, and I've seen this happen to a lot of companies and, and often it's a, you know, it's a. Boiling the frog kind of slow phenomenon. And it frequently happens. Um, when. You lose confidence in yourself for some reason and you start adopting best practices from everywhere else. I mean, hardly in the time I was there and it was very successful. Right. We grew the top line sevenfold in the bottom line, 17 fold in that 15 year period. That's pretty good.
Scott - 00:31:43:
Yeah.
Lara - 00:31:43:
Right.
Scott - 00:31:43:
For real.
Lara - 00:31:44:
We created a lot of value for a lot of people and it wasn't just financial, you know, for our whole stakeholder ecosystem. But we were very different. The way we were structured in a very unique and different way, the way we did things was very different from other people. We played our own game. We knew our strengths. We played our own game. And yeah, we made missteps. And over time, certain things eroded and needed to get shored up again. You know. It always happens, right? You have to keep renewing yourself and revitalizing. But I think when you start trying to, you know, adopt too many practices from elsewhere, you become a Frankenstein, you know, a Franken monster that doesn't have a core and that isn't differentiated. And so you can point to a thing like, you know, the customers have been aging. Well, they've been aging since I was there.
Scott - 00:32:36:
Right.
Lara - 00:32:36:
Right. They've been aging for 30 years and we were doing things about it. But, you know, those things got stalled or they got pared back because. I'll tell you one core reason, and this isn't only Harley, but when you're running that kind of organization. Where the core thing you monetize is the motorcycle. It's high ticket and it's very high margin, believe it or not. And you do all these ancillary things that bond people to the brand and to the motorcycle. They sell more motorcycles. And all those other things we did, parts and accessories, motor clothes, so clothing, licensed products, these different services that I came up with. And very few of them were as directly profitable as selling motorcycles. But together, they created this incredible engine. They substituted for marketing. It was like a paid form of marketing, right? If I can break even on teaching you to ride a motorcycle and I can get you into the fold 10 or 15 years earlier than you would have and keep you much longer, I mean, you know, the payback is tremendous. But if you do a pure P&L or NPV, financial analysis on that initiative standalone, you're never going to fund it. And sometimes this is what happens is. Often it's driven by the finance organization. I'm not going to point fingers, but it often is. Right. Where we want everything to stand alone, you know, be the highest possible, you know, compared to the other alternatives. And you're missing the big picture. You're missing the value created in the ecosystem.
Scott - 00:34:20:
Right. You just used the word, you're a systems thinker, right? You look at things as the complete system.
Lara - 00:34:28:
Yeah.
Scott - 00:34:29:
Quite often when you break it down to the component parts, you know, the, the, It's what's the line about the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, right?
Lara - 00:34:40:
For sure.
Scott - 00:34:41:
Yeah.
Lara - 00:34:41:
Well, and I think this goes back to this, you know, we we've adopted very much in certainly in. In the U.S., business arena, this mechanical kind of thinking, right? We think of businesses as machines. We think of systems as machines. They're not, they're alive, you know? I mean, and so we think if we just, you know, tinker with the parts, it'll add up or, you know, can take out a module, tinker with the module, put it back in. It doesn't work that way. Like if you can't work on the whole system, you will sub-optimize. I firmly believe that.
Scott - 00:35:17:
Right. So that actually brings, I want to bring us to Orchard Supply Hardware, where you and I met when I was your coach. And so I'll do a quick summary and then you add in the details. Orchard, as I recall, was an acquisition by the Lowe's Corporation, the big, huge hardware supply company, you know, in lots of big, big buildings and big parking lots, Lowe's and Orchard was sort of the neighborhood hardware store model. And primarily, I guess, out West California. And that, that region of the United States. Um, and you walked into a pretty big turnaround situation there. Describe the situation upon entry and what you were focusing on during your tenure as CEO? What were you trying to do at Orchard?
Lara - 00:36:08:
Sure. So Lowe's, very big, very successful company, you know, runs big box stores. Home improvement is the focus. And so you can do small projects, but it's also, you know, optimized for taking on very substantial projects, right? Orchard Supply Hardware was a store, as you say, of neighborhood hardware stores. So Lowe's, you know, a Lowe's store might be like 100,000 square feet or 150, right? An orchard store would be, you know, maybe 20,000 or 25 or 15,000, right? So a different scale. Orchard was founded as a co-op in the 30s outside of San Jose, where it used to be orchard fields. And it was founded as a co-op by farmers in the Great Depression to get through hard times together. And it always had this very neighborly, very cooperative, helping each other out. Member of the neighborhood ethos. We discovered this later. Orchard had been a co-op and then had gone private and then gone public and then private equity and then was owned by Sears for 15 years and then was spun out of Sears by some people who took it public again and then into bankruptcy. And then Lowe's bought it. And I was not part of any of that. So when it was bought over, I mean, it had not been invested in for a long time. A number of the stores were quite run down, you know, the headquarters and everything. After acquisition, again, I was not yet part of this. Three big things that were done were to remodel half the stores in about an 18-month period, extend the store footprint. So there were about 60 stores primarily clustered around northern central California, extend the footprint up into Oregon, down into southern California, and across into Florida without doing anything different to the supply chain. So there was one distribution center in northern California that's now supporting that very extended footprint of stores and simultaneously embark upon an ERP implementation.
Scott - 00:38:19:
Yeah.
Lara - 00:38:20:
So these were three very disruptive things that happened in a very short time in a company that's just been acquired out of bankruptcy. With, you can imagine a lot of overhead, a lot of SG&A, right, loaded on top by all these investments.
Scott - 00:38:35:
Mm-hmm.
Lara - 00:38:37:
So that's what I came into. In addition, as I discovered, the under, mainly under prior ownership, Sears and the spin out, I mean, these were people who came from big boxes and they had implemented a lot of systems and practices and thinking policies, procedures that come from that big box world where you have to run it like a giant machine. I mean, it's run like a military operation, like things are very systematized, very controlled. That doesn't lend itself to the feeling of a neighborhood store. Right. So it was kind of like the origin of the company, and what it had originally meant to people, and its reason for being this neighborly store, right? In the neighborhood had had all this stuff, you know, sort of layered over it, these practices that made it more like a big box. So less differentiated or harder to be differentiated. Standardized merchandising, for example, like very regimented ways of providing service to customers. People in the stores weren't allowed to leave their zone of the store. Well, in a big box, okay. But in a, you know, 20,000 square foot store, it's like kind of ridiculous.
Scott - 00:39:50:
Yeah.
Lara - 00:39:50:
So, you know. So anyway, so what I walked into was there were a lot of investment had been made. A lot of good things had been done, new store design, new formats. But the culture and the practices. So I would say the value profit and the go to market had had adopted a very sort of high, low discounting, you know, way of trying to drive traffic. And it was all it was all centered on the circular. So, you know, the thing in the newspaper that anyone gets a newspaper. So, I mean, just think about it. Like all these practices that were just the value proposition was not aligned with the go to market, was not aligned with the practices and procedures. And the cost structure was really problematic. So that's what I walked into.
Scott - 00:40:41:
And so my recollection and all those.
Lara - 00:40:45:
Which is why I wanted a coach.
Scott - 00:40:48:
Yeah, that's a whole other conversation.
Lara - 00:40:50:
And you're probably getting flashbacks.
Scott - 00:40:53:
I am, actually. I'm resisting the urge to- Yeah, exactly. But one thing I definitely recall from my experience with you back then was your emphasis on people and building a team and building a culture in the midst of all these really hard business execution kind of problems, right? And strategy kind of problems. And your creative renewal company website, your consulting company, you've got a Venn diagram. You know, three circles together, strategy, execution, and culture. What was your goal culturally in the midst of all that?
Lara - 00:41:31:
Yeah. The good news, well, the good news about the situation in a way was that so many things were either broken, like we had a really hideous website that couldn't be fixed anytime soon. Right. Like we couldn't fix it in any reasonable timeframe. And, you know, the ERP was well underway. The leases for the expansion were signed. So there were so many things that were immovable in a short time that, you know, the only thing that can move fast and that can overcome seemingly insurmountable obstacles is people and culture. You know, and I had been through enough and had enough experience to know that. So the reason to focus intensely on the people and culture was that's what can transcend, you know, these immovable obstacles. It was a culture-driven transformation that focused a lot on the development of people and getting people deeply connected to our purpose and our customers, right, in a variety of ways. But we made tremendous results in a very short period of time. In the first year, we improved cash flow, $100 million on a $600 million business, expanded gross margin, 453 basis points, took our net promoter from under 60 to consistently over 80, which is up there with Costco and Nordstrom. And we did this while restructuring two times, reducing hours in the stores, reconfiguring the whole way that we staff stores and on and on and on, changing the way we went to market. But all those changes were able to happen so quickly because the focus was on people and culture, developing people, teaching them to be self-directing, self-reflecting, self-correcting, self-developing within a framework, within a number of frameworks. So back to frameworks, with a very clear idea of who Orchard is and what we stand for, what it is that customers value that they get from us, and the principles by which we are going to operate.
Scott - 00:43:43:
What's the senior leader's role, the president's role in? Fostering that kind of culture.
Lara - 00:43:54:
Creating the conditions. So I think it is all about indirect work. And by indirect work, I mean creating conditions. So an aspect of creating conditions is being a role model. But, I think of role model in a very specific way, which is I am modeling. Being self-reflective, being self-directing, you know, taking responsibility. Part of our ethos was operating in a non-hierarchical manner. So I'm going to model all those things. I don't want you to model yourself on me. I want to, you know, be an embodiment of the principles by which we're going to operate. I'm going to demonstrate and hold myself accountable for if we've defined what is the essence of orchard and we're going to use that to make all our decisions, I am going to demonstrate that I'm doing that, right? If we've talked about we expect everyone to be self-reflecting, you know, in everything they do, I'm going to demonstrate that.
Scott - 00:44:57:
Very good. So everybody's different. Everybody has their own unique version of peak performance. What's yours? What's on the short list of words that describes you when you're operating in peak mode?
Lara - 00:45:11:
Well, I mean, you talked about creativity, strategy, and execution. I mean, those are on my website for a reason. I mean, the intersection of those three things is kind of what I bring to any situation, right? I'll see the big picture. I'll strategically navigate toward an end. I'm known for coming up with creative solutions. And, you know, I care about execution and getting things done.
Scott - 00:45:36:
Mm-hmm.
Lara - 00:45:37:
I connect that to the two things that really matter to me. Right. And one is this connecting people across the things that divide them, building bridges, connecting people and cultures. And the other is actualizing potential, whether that's in people or organizations or situations. So for me, when I'm at that, you know, bridging divides. Actualizing potential, operating from strategy, creativity, and execution, you know, I think that's my sweet spot. Now, it's interesting because I've gone into the field of governance. As you know, I'm spending most of my time now working on boards or with boards. And execution isn't really something boards do.
Scott - 00:46:23:
Mm-hmm.
Lara - 00:46:24:
Right? So it's very much about that, you know, working indirectly creating conditions. So over time, my idea of, you know, execution or impact or effectiveness. Has developed and maybe matured. So if you think back to that framework I was talking about, results, outcomes, and effects, these days I focus much, much more on effects. How am I creating the conditions for effects and effectiveness?
Scott - 00:46:57:
Mm-hmm. That brings me to an article or a speech transcript you shared with me. And one thing I learned from reading through that, you and I both have written and spoken about this acronym that's become popular in the last year or two, BANI, B-A-N-I. Brittle. The world is a brittle, anxious, nonlinear, and incomprehensible place. And you recently gave a speech to a conference of corporate directors. Where you encouraged them to take a cue from the Blue Angels, the Navy's flight demonstration team. And the phrase that the pilots and the Blue Angels use is they want to fly loose. So tell us what flying loose means and how that applies to board members and the conditions they create.
Lara - 00:47:47:
Yeah, thanks for asking. So, you know, I mentioned this, you know, paying attention to creating conditions. And I think it's it's really it's one of the biggest transitions for people coming onto boards because, you know, typically they're very we're all right. Accomplished executives and have have been successful by getting things done. Right. Now we're on boards and we're there to, at least from a legal point of view, provide oversight. Right? And accountability, fiduciary ethics, you know, hire by the CEO and so on. But. That's a very limited idea of what a board is there to do. If you think about effects and effectiveness and impact in the world and stewarding the success of an organization over a long time to, to my mind, you have to think more about effect, creating the conditions, right. For, for effectiveness. And so in the transition from executive to boardroom, it's hard to let go of that impulse, right. To get execute work directly, or to, to give advice or even to, you know, ask questions in a way that's more or less actually giving advice. You know what I mean?
Scott - 00:49:00:
Leading, the leading question, leading the witness. Yeah. Yeah.
Lara - 00:49:03:
Yeah. And so, you know, if that, in that speech, the call to action was to reflect on, you know, everything we do creates conditions, the question you ask, the comment you make, the information you ask to see, the way we go about making decisions, the discussion we're having. And so the notion of flying loose, right? So the, the blue angels, when they talk about this, they talk about if you hold too tight to your, your.
Scott - 00:49:29:
Stick.
Lara - 00:49:30:
Stick. Right, um, uh, you actually cause the plane to, you know, tend to um respond, to the conditions around it. In a way that can be dangerous for the formation, if you, if you have a looser grip, you can actually go with the flow of, um, of what's happening around and stay on course better, with a grip. So the idea was for a board, how can we think about you know a looser grip as in, how, you know, thinking about working indirectly, thinking about effects and effectiveness, think about how we're creating conditions, not being as, as directive, you know, or, or leading the witness as you will, in terms of how we interact with, with management.
Scott - 00:50:18:
What have you learned in your board experience in the last number of years that you wish you had known when you were an executive? From all the observation and interactions that you've had. Like, wow, it would have been really great if I'd known that 15 or 20 years ago.
Lara - 00:50:33:
I don't know if I have a good one for that, Scott. I mean, the reason I wanted to move into the boardroom is that I had seen how significant the impact of the board can be, you know, for good or otherwise, in both the actions they take and in... The situations where they choose not to act. And I had, you know, seen too many situations of boards. Not acting, right? And it having really negative multi-generational consequences for companies, employees, communities, you know, extended ecosystems. And it wasn't, you know, to think that I can solve all those problems, but it was like, if I'm going to take everything I've learned for 30 some years and do something meaningful with it, I feel like that is something meaningful I can do to go into the boardroom and try to be part of. You know, effective boards, greater effectiveness.
Scott - 00:51:32:
I know you and I had a few conversations after you left Orchard that that was a goal of yours, which you have obviously succeeded in meeting. What's your advice for someone who... We could be sitting on a board, a nonprofit board, or maybe a corporate board or a company board or any other. Goal that's kind of a transition from what they've done. Maybe it builds on what they've done, but it isn't what they've done up until now. What did you learn through that process of... Being recruited to be on a board like WD-40, what advice would you offer to people that have... Their next big goal, but... Haven't really charted the full path to doing that, to get there.
Lara - 00:52:17:
So going through a transition of some kind.
Scott - 00:52:19:
Yeah, yeah.
Lara - 00:52:19:
Yeah. I mean, I think it starts with knowing yourself, you know, being really clear on. Not only what you're good at, But what brings you joy? What do you enjoy doing? Because to me, if you're going to make a transition, why wouldn't you make it in service of more enjoyment in your work? Right? So know yourself. Understand what brings you joy. Understand your why. I had my why of going into board work. Understand your why so that you're going towards something, not away from something for sure. And you're doing it with clarity of purpose. You know, when I left Orchard, I mean, I got a lot of calls immediately about CEO roles. You know, come lead this retailer or that retailer. And I thought about it. And, you know, I would have enjoyed many aspects of it. But I realized that that wasn't what was going to be most meaningful to me in my next phase. Right. So you also have to think, think about your why that lets you say no to some things. And that allows you to focus on what, what you really want to be doing. And then be, be open to serendipity. You know, so I always think of having a North star, you have a North star. So I wanted to, you know, be on. On boards as my next chapter, work on governance. I'm clear on why I'm doing it. I know what I bring to the table. And then, you know, you go out, you talk to lots of people, you expose yourself to lots of situations and, you know, different things arise. So don't, you know, fly loose, right? Don't be too controlling in how you try to pursue your next thing. Because usually, you know, how it eventually comes about is different from what you expected and typically better.
Scott - 00:54:10:
So, Lara, you mentioned a mantra a little while ago. Could you share that with us?
Lara - 00:54:16:
Yeah, it's a mantra that I've developed in recent years, Scott. It's open heart, awaken mind, strong core, enlivened spirit, and caring community. And these are things that I've realized when I work on them, and in that order, there is a particular order. That work becomes easy, potential becomes available. I can be at my best without a lot of effort.
Scott - 00:54:46:
Mm-hmm.
Lara - 00:54:47:
Yeah.
Scott - 00:54:48:
I love that. What does core mean to you in that list of heart, mind, core, spirit, and community?
Lara - 00:54:54:
So strong core for me means things like being clear on my values, but also setting clear aims. For myself. So when, you know, if I'm going to pursue something, I have a clear aim that I set for myself and having rituals. Rituals are part of it, you know, just like a strong core in your body, right? You work certain things and you have a strong core. So if I'm exercising, my body is part of a strong core, but also my values. And so I have rituals. I, you know, I go to the gym, I journal, I set aims for myself and I reflect on how I'm doing with pursuing those aims. Those are all part of having a strong core. And my faith is part of my strong core.
Scott - 00:55:36:
Yeah, I'm so glad we've talked about this because it's really... The premise of the show, Best Ever, is that intersection between effective self-management and positive leadership outcomes, right? And so I love it that you've got such a systematic… Not surprised, but I love it that you've got this systematic.
Lara - 00:55:55:
Yeah.
Scott - 00:55:56:
Way of thinking and working with this.
Lara - 00:55:58:
And, you know, that leading with open heart is something that... You know, the younger me never would have thought that this age me found to be the most important thing. But it has to do with nonjudgmentalism toward myself and toward others. And because you can't be discerning, in my opinion, if you're judging. And being nonjudgmental is how you're able to perceive reality and work with things as they are, not as you wish them to be. And not get caught up in wishing others to be different from how they are or blaming yourself for things that you can't do anything about. So that open heart is a really good, important starting place.
Scott - 00:56:47:
Mm-hmm.
Lara - 00:56:49:
And then the caring community on the end, you know, what I mean by caring is people who care enough that they have a commitment to others in the community to not allow them to not grow and develop. So I care enough about you. That I'm going to be honest with you, right? So there's sort of self-accountability within a caring community means that others will be helping you to be self-accountable and to work on your development and to see things clearly and to understand your blind spots. So it's not sort of a caring is not nurturing in the way that I'm using it. Not that it's, I should say, it's not equivalent to nurturing. Nurturing could be part of it, but caring is more.
Scott - 00:57:38:
Do you want what's best for the other party? Who's? Who makes up your own caring community these days.
Lara - 00:57:46:
So I have different caring communities. I have one that works on regenerative business. And I have another that's more enlivening the spirit.
Scott - 00:58:00:
Mm-hmm.
Lara - 00:58:01:
Yeah.
Scott - 00:58:02:
Okay, very good. Thank you so much for sharing that. That is a huge takeaway from our conversation, I'm sure, for everybody listening. Thank you.
Lara - 00:58:10:
Thanks. It's a cool thing I came to. Yeah.
Scott - 00:58:12:
Okay, I could go on and on. Thank you first for reminding me of how much I enjoyed working with you back in the day and why I did, because we would have some very discursive but substantive discussions.
Lara - 00:58:25:
Totally, I miss it too. It was wonderful.
Scott - 00:58:29:
My question I like to ask everybody who comes on Best Ever. What's been in your ears lately? This is my final question. What's been in your ears lately? In other words, what are you listening to that's inspiring you or shaping your thinking or just making you laugh maybe?
Lara - 00:58:42:
Well, I'm more of a reader than a listener.
Scott - 00:58:45:
Mm-hmm.
Lara - 00:58:47:
And I'm a pretty hardcore geek kind of reader.
Scott - 00:58:52:
Okay. What's on your nightstand or on your desk?
Lara - 00:58:56:
So part of why I'm interested in working on corporate governance is I've come to believe that people... Learn to expect in their larger systems of governance what they've experienced in their smaller systems. So what you experience in your family might be what you're willing to accept in your nation. And then business is a key point of intervention for this. So working on corporate governance in a way is working indirectly on other aspects of governance. So I'm reading. The Origins of Totalitarianism.
Scott - 00:59:32:
Okay. And who's the author of that? Is that Snyder?
Lara - 00:59:36:
Hannah Arendt.
Scott - 00:59:37:
Oh, yeah, right. Okay.
Lara - 00:59:39:
All right. A fascinating book called The Free World. It's very wide ranging, but it talks about from all aspects, like culture, politics, social systems, you know, music, art. It talks about everything sort of that after World War II, how this idea of the free world, you know, in contrast to the unfree world, the communist world came into being and how it permeated every aspect of culture. It's a it's a really fascinating, really good book. And the dawn of everything.
Scott - 01:00:17:
I haven't heard that one.
Lara - 01:00:18:
And, it goes back and sort of the dawn of everything. And it goes back and reexamines sort of. How we've learned to think about history through the ages, right, in a very linear and almost determinate way, like it was meant to unfold this way. Everything has meant to bring us to this point, and it blows up a lot of our assumptions about how things came to be the way they are.
Scott - 01:00:44:
So in other words, a pretty light summer reading list for you.
Lara - 01:00:47:
Yeah. Yeah. That's me. That's me. I read novels also, but, you know, those are just.
Scott - 01:00:53:
I love it.
Lara - 01:00:54:
Palate cleansers between the heavy stuff.
Scott - 01:00:56:
Exactly, the sorbet between the... Exactly. The dawn of everything. All right. Lara Lee, what did I not ask you that you wish I'd asked?
Lara - 01:01:07:
Anything? Oh my gosh, I don't think so. It felt like a pretty invigorating and wide-ranging discussion.
Scott - 01:01:15:
Thank you. If people want to learn more about you and your work, where would you point them?
Lara - 01:01:21:
Um, they can email me. Okay. lara.lee@creative-renewal.com.
Scott - 01:01:28:
All right. Excellent. Thank you. It's lovely to see you again. And like I said, this was taken in the way back machine of great conversationalists I've been privileged to work with. You're at the top of the list. So thank you so much.
Lara - 01:01:42:
It was really fun and a great privilege. Thank you for having me, Scott.
Scott - 01:01:46:
Likewise. Thank you, Lara. Some coachable moments from my conversation with Lara Lee. You heard in the interview that Lara and I kind of go way back. I was her coach somewhere between 10 and 15 years ago when she was president at Orchard Supply Hardware. And I experienced her then as I experienced her today. Lara is a very deep, soulful, thoughtful, intelligent, creative, you could go on with adjectives, person. There's a lot of meat in what Lara has to say. To me, she is a unique leader in that she is very, very execution focused, but also very people focused at the same time. And that she looks at things, as we talked about in the conversation systemically, it's an entire system that she's looking at. We talked a little bit during the conversation, not a little bit, actually a good bit during the conversation about a mantra that she's developed for me. And that's really my coachable moment from Lara today because it's so comprehensive and so systematic and it's so completely and genuinely reflective of her that I just think it's a good reference point for anyone. You as the listener of Best Ever, many of you are leaders. Many of you are coaches of leaders or your team members or parents or whatever it might be. I think her mantra. Can be shaped and applied to anybody that... Is looking for some guidance. And we talked in the conversation about frameworks. Vermontra is essentially a framework through which you can look at and operate it in the world, right? So here it is. It's five points. It's open heart, awakened mind, strong core. Enlivened spirit and caring community. And she elaborated. Several of those points, like open heart to her means nonjudgmental and working with people as they are. Strong core. You know, and she made the point that heart, mind, core, spirit, and community in that order kind of builds, right? So core is right there in the middle of the five, or maybe you would expect the core to be. And that's what everything else is built around, right? That strong core. So she has rituals like exercise, going to the gym, journaling for her mental and spiritual growth and renewal. Her faith life, her life with faith communities and other things that she does to enhance that. I think she embodied enlivened spirit throughout the... Conversation. She's certainly embodied awakened mind. She's one of the smartest people I've ever met. And then caring community, I thought was really interesting and important. It's not so much nurturing, although that's a great thing. It's caring enough to be. Honest with people because you want the best for them. And, you know, it's easy sometimes to just focus on all the positives. Oh, you're doing great. Well, you don't actually think they're doing great. But you know what? I think you could be better. And here's how and why and maybe even more. Here's the offer I want to make to help. And so caring community can look like a lot of things, but I thought it was a brilliant one to end her five-point mantra with. So many other coachable moment candidates in this conversation with Lara. We're going to have a lot in the show notes. She's clearly a people connector. She's all about actualizing potential. We talked a little, you know, had a brief reference to Maslow and the hierarchy of needs and self-actualization at the top of the pyramid. That's Lara Lee. She's all about actualization. For the organization she serves as a director, that she's served as an executive, and really in her own life, a purpose-driven person and constantly reflecting. On what that means to her. And. Continually asking and answering the question, why am I here? So thanks to Lara Lee for a wonderful conversation. If you want to know more about her, her website is creativerenewal.com. You can Google that. And thank you for listening to Best Ever. If you found today's conversation valuable, be sure to follow Best Ever on your favorite podcast platform and leave us a review and a comment on this episode. I want to know what's landing with you and your engagement really helps others discover the show. And if you're looking for more on how self-management fuels lasting leadership impact, connect with me through eblingroup.com. I've learned it takes a village to make a podcast. Thanks to executive producer Cee Cee Huffman and editor Mark Meyer, both of Wavestream Media. And thanks to my other team members, Lindsay Russell, Mary Motz, Sophia Shum, and Diane Eblin. Best Ever is a production of the Eblin Group. Thanks for listening to Best Ever. And until next time, keep taking those small steps that lead to your best ever outcomes.