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The Tracks Nobody Sees, But Every Marketer Should Hear.
This podcast celebrates the hidden gems of marketing insight found across all professions—both within and beyond traditional marketing roles. Just as B-sides on a single contain brilliant tracks that are treasured by true fans, every profession contains marketing wisdom that isn't obvious at first glance but is incredibly valuable when discovered.
Tom Hootman (02:54)
same question I ask everybody. If your career had a playlist, what are two to three songs that would be on it? And we take these songs and we put them on a master, mix tape digital marketing besides playlists. It's the shittiest playlist in the world, because it's all over the place, but.
Susan (03:07)
I think it kind of depends. I always think of my work every day as like needing certain types of music. So I feel like if I look at it from a how does my day go kind of thing, the morning is probably gonna be something classical like Claire de Lune or something, cause that's when I'm like in spreadsheets and I'm pulling data and it's like, if there's lyrics, I can't, I'm just, I start singing and I'm not paying attention. So it's usually like,
Tom Hootman (03:22)
Yeah.
Susan (03:32)
jazz like a Miles Davis or like a Claire de Lune oriented classical kind of thing. Cause I just need quiet and coffee and Excel or Google Sheet cells. That's kind of my morning usually is just like, okay, did anything blow up over the weekend? What's going to be coming? I feel like midday as we get into meetings, it's probably going to be very, it's very adrenaline fueled. You know what I mean? So it's like, I feel like I usually end up putting on
Tom Hootman (03:44)
Mm-hmm.
Susan (03:57)
⁓ some Rolling Stones or classic rock of some kind, just because I need something timeless that has a lot of energy. So I would say probably like one of the Rolling Stones. I'd have to follow up on which one, because I just have like a playlist of theirs that it just flips through basically.
Tom Hootman (04:12)
Do you like older stones or 70 stones or like 80s 90s stones?
Susan (04:15)
I'm into
like 60, 70 stones. So it's probably going to be like, gimme shelter or one of those. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, you know, like one of those. Isn't it though? I know. And then I would say afternoon. That's a tough one. Cause I kind of cycle back into like the concentration piece of kind like, okay, what happened during the day? What do I have to take care of? What are the things we got to fix?
Tom Hootman (04:17)
Yeah, like.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Gimmie Shelter's a good choice. Very Martin Scorsese of you. Yeah.
What do I have get done with so
I can finish my fucking day?
Susan (04:43)
100 % so it's like I don't want anything that's like screaming at me because I'm trying to focus still but I also need the energy piece of it because I'm just starting to go on the downslope. I feel like that would be more like poppy kind of Imagine Dragon-y or New Taylor Swift kind of stuff, you know what I mean? Where it's it's like easier listening but still upbeat kind of thing.
Tom Hootman (04:59)
There we go, yeah.
So you listen to Taylor Swift.
Susan (05:05)
Yeah,
I'm a word nerd. Like who's not going to listen to someone? mean, I'm like the, pop music itself is kind of am, but she's a really good lyricist. So I appreciate, I appreciate her way with language.
Tom Hootman (05:16)
Everyone picks a Taylor Swift song. It's like every podcast, everyone's like, and this Taylor Swift song. And I'm like, I wouldn't know it if I heard it. If it hit me in traffic, I would have no idea. But I'll take everyone's word for it. Kayla Kurtz is the world's biggest Taylor Swift fan. So she's always about Taylor. Tay-tay.
Susan (05:30)
I wouldn't
say that I'm like everyone's like the kind of biggest fan ever. The funny story is my dad actually got me into her. Yeah, my dad is he's a guitar player and he really likes singer songwriter stuff. So he wasn't into like her pop stuff. But when evermore and folklore came out, he was like, oh my God, this girl's super talented. Like he just fell in love with her, her folk era. So he doesn't really listen to the new stuff, but he loves that stuff.
Tom Hootman (05:38)
What?
Yeah.
Susan (05:57)
So it was on when I was at his house one time and I was like, wow, this is actually really good. And so I'm not really into like her older poppy stuff, but I do, I have a lot of appreciation for kind of her Nevermore, her Evermore rather, sorry, I've got Poe in the brain. ⁓ But yeah, like her Evermore in folklore was what kind of got me into her a little bit more. So yeah.
Tom Hootman (06:13)
Well, it is spooky season.
Hmm, that's interesting. ⁓
There's a line I use in every single pitch that I love and I hope it doesn't offend you.
Susan (06:25)
Yeah.
You can't offend. You know I'm not- it's- it's- impossible to offend. I'm always afraid I'm gonna offend somebody else.
Tom Hootman (06:29)
I know and it's a beautiful part of working with you.
It's funny because we worked with a lot of people that I used to work with before years ago at Hannappin and Hannappin had a type, right? It was like very Midwestern, all shucks. I don't want to be too aggressive. They're very polite, very kind, wonderful people and I'm always telling them, I'm like, just go to Susan with this.
Susan (06:45)
Okay.
Tom Hootman (06:55)
I think Susan's busy. She'll tell you if she's fucking busy. Like, Susan doesn't give a shit. Like, yeah, don't, no. It'll bounce off her, trust me. She'll tell you straight up.
Susan (06:58)
Yeah, you don't have about that. Yeah, it's like, don't worry. You took like the Philadelphian and put it in the middle of the Midwesterners and they're like, I
don't know. You're you're never going. She'll tell you.
Tom Hootman (07:09)
I enjoy picking up the Midwesterners and throwing them into
the Philadelphia. It's my favorite part, quite honestly. So I always tell people in pitches, and it was a great sales rep I worked with when I first worked in outside sales. we had, we would do multiple stops, like 15 stops at restaurants and like nursing homes and schools and anywhere that would buy food. And he would walk in and tell the same fucking two stories or three lines 15 times. And I was like, this is mind numbing. And then it dawned on me.
Susan (07:14)
I try and be kind.
Yes.
Tom Hootman (07:37)
They're all different. So they're hearing it for the first time. So I use these same things in pitches every time. And I'm sure they're old to us, but I always say to folks like, Susan talked me into starting Mixtape Digital had worked on me for years about it. We've known each other for like 15 years. And I said, she's been in this business so long, I don't wanna date it, but I'll just say that her first job in digital marketing was at Circuit City.
Susan (07:51)
crazy.
was.
Tom Hootman (07:58)
Which
is a good line and it immediately adds context. So I say that, like at the precursor of like, you've had a long illustrious career, ⁓ showing no signs of slowing down, but what's a moment in your career you look back on and laugh now that wasn't very fucking funny at the time? That like.
Susan (08:06)
Mm-hmm.
Can
it be business travel?
Tom Hootman (08:18)
Yeah, totally.
Susan (08:19)
I think the worst trip ever. And if Kirk Williams and Joe Martinez are watching this, they will know because they were at this conference. You could not create a worse business travel story. Like planes, trains, and automobiles was nothing compared to me getting to Milan, Italy. It was the worst. ⁓ it was, the one that's done.
Tom Hootman (08:37)
What conference was this? this?
Susan (08:40)
The one, it was the SMX one, but for the Milan version. I ⁓ was a featured keynote speaker and thank God I deliberately planned to get there like two to three days before because I slept like the entire first day. So getting there, the plane was supposed to take off at 10 o'clock at night and we were supposed to connect in Amsterdam the next morning.
It didn't take off till three o'clock in the morning. We were not fed anything. We were stuck. I was at my connection in Atlanta. That's where I got held up. Everything was closed. So you have a plane full of starving people. They moved us to a different, smaller layout plane. So the really nice ticket I was supposed to have where I could like lean back, they put me against the wall so I couldn't recline. They didn't feed us. And so we get to Amsterdam.
And I was supposed to connect with Alitalia. And because we were like five hours late, there was no flight for, I don't know, six hours. So, and in the middle of it, when I go to like rebook, they look and they're like, oh, your luggage is going to DeGaul. DeGaul's a Paris. That's not where I'm going. So.
Tom Hootman (09:44)
Mondeux. Yeah, great. Is that where I'm going? Paris is a beautiful
city. I hope my luggage enjoys it.
Susan (09:51)
I know,
I hope it had a nice tour. So ⁓ I go and get dinner at the Amsterdam airport, knowing I have like no luggage coming, so who knows. Get on the plane, land in Italy at, I don't even know, I wanna say it was like 11 o'clock midnight their time. I've been up for like 30 something hours. I have no idea what day it is, I have no idea what time it is. I wanna shower, I wanna bed.
So I land and I go to get it. There's no luggage. So I spend like 45 minutes of luggage counter. They're giving me all this information. She's trying to speak English. It was a comedy of errors. I go out to get a cab and I don't have my credit card because I left it at the Amsterdam airport and all I have is an American express and none of the cab drivers will take AmEx. So I'm like crying. This is the illustrious life of a speaker.
Tom Hootman (10:28)
⁓
Holy fuck.
Susan (10:38)
Business travel is so glamorous. I'm like, it is so the opposite of glamorous when you are standing on the island where the taxis are at the airport and you are crying your eyes out because no one will give you a ride to your hotel room. And finally, some very kind Italian taxi driver took pity on me and took me. But I think I slept for like 20 hours. I was so tired. I mean, amazingly, they did deliver my luggage to the hotel like two days later.
⁓ but yeah, that was, so by the time I got on that stage, I'm like, I need to go home. I need to go home. And it was, my God, it was terrible. It so bad. So now it's like I laugh, but it was so bad. Kirk and Joe, there was like a snowstorm or something when they were getting home. So Kirk made us t-shirts that he sent to Joe and I that had the, like the Milan skyline. And it said Il Curso dei Milano. I still have the shirt because all of our travel was terrible.
Tom Hootman (11:12)
Susan, that's a horrible, horrible, horrible story. And end with what?
Susan (11:35)
None of us got where we were supposed to be going. It was a mess. It was the biggest mess ever.
Tom Hootman (11:39)
When you talked about the moment that broke you, that you were starting to talk about it, and I was like, that's the moment that would break me. And then I was very happy to hear that that also broke you. That's when I just like, you just, you think you're gonna break a couple times on those trips and you don't. And then it's the last thing that just like absolutely.
Susan (11:46)
yeah, I was so.
Yeah, it's like you
stay numb. There's like an adrenaline hum where you're just like, it's just one. And I am a very, you roll with the punches, you deal with stuff as it comes in, right? Like you can't get, you can't overreact. You can't expend a lot of energy reacting to it at this point. You just got to figure out. So I'm like, I'll just figure it out. just figure it out. Probably I'm like, I can't figure this out. I don't have a Visa I don't have a Mastercard. Like there's no solution. That's when I lost it.
Tom Hootman (12:02)
Yeah.
I
Yeah, I mean, the one of the, it reminds me of like when you say there's no solution, it reminds me of one of the scariest, literally scariest, like during the great resignation at Brainlabs when everyone was quitting. Like I've never had this in this industry before, like where everyone's quitting. You always have a couple people quit and you're like, oh shit, how are we gonna chessboard this and like play Tetris? And it got so bad. I was trying to save someone on the phone.
while on vacation with my wife in Brooklyn at the Andy Warhol Museum. And I'm in a stairwell trying to address their list of five demands they made. And just to keep this one person. And like one of the demands was ⁓ like, I don't wanna have a non-compete. it was like, it felt like people were taking you, like holding you hostage.
Susan (13:02)
Yeah. Yeah. They were.
Tom Hootman (13:03)
And one of the scariest moments was
one of the most brilliant strategists of operations I've ever worked with, Jeff Baum, JJ, called me one day and he was like, he was broken. He's like, I don't have another move. He's like, I always have a move to like cover an account. like, I just don't. And it's those moments that break you. always like to say like, there's like, I love sitting in first class or in comfort plus. I'm a snob, I was a snob when I traveled.
Susan (13:16)
Yeah. Yeah.
I am too.
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (13:28)
but there's
nothing like a 12 hour delay or an overnight delay that will make me relish and appreciate row 31, seat C more than like, yeah. Like I will gladly sit next to the bathrooms in the last row crammed in and I'll not get drink service and I will just sit quietly in my, you've broken me Delta.
Susan (13:36)
yeah. And landing when you're supposed to land.
Yeah.
yeah, that's where I was at where I'm like, just get me on a plane, like, and get me to a hotel bed and no one bothered me like for 12 to 16 hours. It was just, and I knew I had like client email stacking up. Like I knew I'm like, I can't even open the apps on my phone because it ain't gonna be pretty.
Tom Hootman (13:53)
⁓ yeah.
There was an element of that. mean, I get that. we talk about this a lot. Like there's just so much going on in the over and concentration. Where do I put my time? Put on more classical music. And I was kind of there last week even. Like there are times where it just gets to be, if I let it go too much, I don't even open like LinkedIn because I know it's going to say 18 messages, 48 notifications. And I'm like, I just, I can't, I can't.
Susan (14:18)
You
Yeah. Yeah.
Tom Hootman (14:32)
I just can't.
Susan (14:32)
Well, and
it's like, you know, especially for someone like me that it's managed, but I have ADHD. It's like, if I feel that overwhelm, I will go into like paralysis mode. You know what mean? It's like, I will just be paralyzed and I will stare and I'll be like, I have to start with one of these. I can't choose. And then that makes it worse. So it's like, it's the same thing where if I know I'm in that state, like I have to be prepared. You know, I need to be like.
Tom Hootman (14:42)
Shut down. Shut down.
Susan (14:56)
If I log in and there's like 18 emails, am I okay with that? And like, yeah, okay, good, we'll go do it. But if my brain's like, no, no, don't do it, no, I'm like, I am better off delaying it the two to three hours that it takes for me to just process other stuff and then go back to it. My answers to my work will be far better than if I try and force myself to do it when I know I'm just gonna get overwhelmed.
Tom Hootman (15:15)
100 % and I appreciate you mentioning that I wasn't going to mention it but like unless you were comfortable like you and I both battle that we both have ADHD and I when I tell people who don't have it and it's funny because it's a joke it's a joke to you and I because it's kind of true and I was in a call last week with someone and I was talking about it and I mentioned it and they were like really like what's that like no it's a joke like I think what I tell people is like I medicate to be able to
Susan (15:22)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hmm
Tom Hootman (15:45)
like focus, but the focus it's like driving a car without power steering. I said, so there's always a chance I go to make a cup of coffee. And 18 minutes later, Amy comes downstairs and said, what are you doing? And I'm organizing a drawer because I go into the drawer to get something and I'm like, this drawer is out of and it's the most important project in the world. Meanwhile, Mixtape Digital is on fire and I have like five things to do and I have a meeting that starts in two minutes.
Susan (15:46)
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah, yup.
I read this article once that they really explained it best to people that don't have it, is that it's really a misnomer to say that it's a deficit of attention. The problem is that you, it's not that you lack attention, it's that you lack the control of where it goes. And I'm like, that is the best explanation I've ever heard, because there are certain things, like when I was being assessed for it, the woman didn't even ask if, she just said, what's one thing you can do and you can do for four to five hours and you'll completely lose track of time.
And I was like reading. And she said, it's usually reading or music. She said, there's this common theme that hyper focus is kicked off with something creative typically. And so that's kind what I always tell people. Like it's not that I'm not able to focus. It's that I can't control what I'm going to focus on unless I like, and that's been, that was the weird part of when I first started medication for it. was like,
Tom Hootman (16:44)
music for me.
Susan (17:00)
I have to work on that and I'm just going to go do it now. Like it was, it was very freeing. You know what I mean? To be like, I need to get this done and I can go do it now. Like it's, I'm not being pulled by something else. I'm not paralyzed, or feeling overwhelmed. ⁓ it was very freeing in an odd way, but it's, it's hard to explain to people that don't have it.
Tom Hootman (17:15)
When did you, when were you diagnosed? was there a job you had or like a situation where you were like, this isn't, this isn't.
Susan (17:17)
⁓
Honestly,
it was perimenopause that did me in. I knew I had it most of my life, but was manageable. Yeah, I know. But it was manageable, right? But it was like, once the hormone changes started, I'm like, I'm paralyzed. Like it was so noticeably amplified. And my husband was just like, you okay? And I'm like, no, I am constantly frustrated with my inability to finish anything. It was driving me crazy because you do the thing where you start something and then you're like, ⁓ I got these other five things to do. Let me start them.
Tom Hootman (17:25)
Me too.
Susan (17:48)
So I don't forget that I need to finish them and then you wind up with 30 things you've started and have not finished. And it's so overwhelming and it's so frustrating and you know you did it to yourself, but you don't know how else to make sure those things happen and get done and they don't fall off your radar.
Tom Hootman (18:00)
always been jealous of, Jeff Allen is a good example. Jeff Allen, he always would joke that he was a philosophy major that got into digital marketing. He's a deep thinker and he can think very deeply about a topic and he can time box and he gets up at like three in the morning and runs and then he like reads for a while and then he gets his day started. He's just able to absorb like at depth a topic.
Susan (18:09)
Yep.
Tom Hootman (18:25)
And I think he gave me a review once where he was like, if you can focus that type of like, he's like, I'm friends with you. And I see the things you get excited about and that you get hyper focused on. If there's ever any way you can focus that here and here, superstar. And I'm like, you don't understand, not gonna happen. I can't tell you if that's ever gonna happen. If it does, great. But like there are times like, and it's a thing where people...
Susan (18:42)
Yeah. Yeah.
Tom Hootman (18:48)
I like to think of myself as considerate and people are like, I'll send someone a gift or I'll send someone a card or I'll send some out of nowhere. And people are like, that's really kind of you. And I like, yeah, I was hyper-focused on it. Like I was hyper-focused on like, I had to scratch the itch, but I'm not the kind of person who would like, it's a great idea to load everyone's birthdays into a calendar and tell people how much I appreciate them and connect with them. The second I load it in a calendar and I make it a task, done. No, it's not gonna happen. And if worse yet,
Susan (18:56)
I had to do it. had to scratch the itch. Yeah.
Yeah. So funny.
Tom Hootman (19:16)
they'll they'll they'll like start to like pile up and then I'll spend all weekend distracting myself from having to do them like just thinking about how I have to do it on Monday.
Susan (19:22)
Yes. Yup. There are suddenly
18 other things that are way more important even though they're not.
Tom Hootman (19:27)
No, absolutely. Absolutely.
So you've been so one thing I love about you.
You can walk in any pitch and talk to any client and just be like yourself. Just do your thing. You're fantastic communicating the clients. ⁓ Tell me about the worst client pitch you've ever been on.
Susan (19:38)
Well, thanks. Thank you.
I would say that there's probably a common theme of the ones that were bad, if that makes sense. Like there's not one that comes to mind at this point, because I've done so many, but there are themes. The ones that never go well are either the ones where, and these are typically smaller accounts, but it's very rare that I've had it work out well when you're taking over an account from somebody that managed it themselves.
It just, they don't wanna let go. They always know better. It's just very tough to get around. it's, they really feel like their account is this one special case of something. But when you've managed millions of dollars in spend at some point, you're like, no, there are patterns. Like, I'm sorry to tell you. And it doesn't mean that there's a cookie cutter approach to everything. That's not what that means. But it does mean that there are...
know, categorizations of ways you can handle things. And one of them will probably work for the situation you're in. They don't want to hear that. So I think that those are the ones that, at least from a, you know, winning them over and then taking over the account, they almost never work out well. I think the other thing is just...
when you deal with C-suite, when it's not something they do every day, but they don't know where their lane ends and everybody thinks they're good at marketing. So really good marketers tend to have a lot of soft skills that can't be taught or they're learned over a really, really long period of time. The hard part with it is that because it's not
they're not going to their lawyer and telling them how to do their job, right? Because that's like, you had to go to school and it's like documented rules and you need to know all those intricacies to even be able to practice it. So they defer to them. 100%. Like that's the problem with, and everyone's like, well, I use Google, I know how it works. And I'm like, really? Okay, tell me more. It's like the Willy Wonka of me when I'm like, really? Tell me more, tell me how it works.
Tom Hootman (21:21)
Any asshole can do this.
Well,
that's funny because you and I know what you're referring to. We have a recent example of this, which is hilarious, Which has recently gotten better. But we always used to say,
Susan (21:42)
Bye!
Tom Hootman (21:46)
The good clients who come in and are, it's like they're going to the doctor. They're like, I Googled it, here's what it says, but you're the expert, tell me what's wrong in here. Those are perfect because we do this every day. We're gonna tell you to our best effort what we see and what we would do differently. the CEO has, like the C-suite, the CEO, CMO has an idea because they manage the Google account.
Susan (21:57)
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (22:12)
seven years ago. Or when we get introduced, like sometimes this like the CMO or the VP comes to us and then they do this thing where they're like, okay, I need to talk to my team and let them know that we're gonna do this. And you're like, shit, because they're gonna bring them on the pitch because they need their subject matter experts there. And then you're like, great. You just like you just pitted like, to you just like put us in a back alley together and like broke a pool cue and happen through one half of it in the middle.
Susan (22:36)
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (22:39)
We're not here to fight them, but you're basically asking, like, it's hard for them not to take that as an attack. And it's like, it's not an attack whatsoever, but like, here's something you might want to do different.
Susan (22:47)
Yeah.
Yeah, it's always kind of tough when you're, those are probably the other ones too, where it's like there, if there's been somebody internally handling it and they bring you and or it was a different agency that the internal person liked that management didn't, there's just, and I am a very.
I'm just a factual person. To me, it's just data. So I don't really get involved in the dance of who liked who and whatever. I try and be sensitive to it, but I'm also like, look, your job was for me to hit you between the eyes with the truth. So it's like, this is the data. This is what it looks like. I'll try and frame it as kindly as I can, but it's also an awkward position to be in because you're wanting me to give you the truth, but you're putting me in a situation where you're also being like dance. You know what I mean? I'm like, I can't.
Tom Hootman (23:31)
Yeah
Susan (23:32)
It's those those are very awkward because you either wind up watering down how poorly things are being run. You know what mean? It's like there's if there's serious, serious problems, you're either watering it down because you're trying to protect the feelings of people that like whoever's managing it. Or you're honest about how it's going, and then those people are mad and those people you're working with ongoing. So you're it's a tough situation because you're kind of in a no win where it's like you're being paid to do something, but you have to be really careful about how you do it.
Tom Hootman (23:57)
There's absolutely very well said and I will say this again, I'm not just blowing smoke smoke up your ass, but There's having worked on a new business team forever. Like you hit a point when that's your job just to like win new business It's it's so tempting to try to find the yeah, we can do that. Like here's what we can do to succeed and it's it's really hard to control Not getting ahead of yourself and telling them. Yes just to win the business
Because honestly, half the time, whatever they're concerned about doesn't fucking matter anyway. So when you win the business, they're going to stick around for years. It's not the main problem. Pitches I was on were like the international fucking like Yandex as a strategy was the most critical thing. And then guess what? They never even fucking did anything on Yandex. Right. But you do. I mean, we I've been on a couple of pitches recently with you where you're like you're like hard truth. Right. Like here's here's the reality. And here's why you shouldn't do this.
Susan (24:29)
Yeah, it's not the main problem. Yeah.
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (24:53)
And in my head I'm like, uh-oh, are we gonna get this? And literally though, people just want honesty and transparency and the truth. Because they're like, thank you.
Susan (25:01)
I think that that's the biggest
difference. I feel like that's the biggest difference I see between agencies are the ones that, and I don't know that it's always intentional because I think to your point, sometimes they're sending in salesperson that doesn't know, like they can't manage the expectations of some of the intricacies of what would be taken on from an account perspective. So I don't know that it's always intentional, but I think that...
I feel like one of the things that I hear consistently from clients over my career, for better or for worse, usually for better, is that they're like, I just feel like I can ask you and you're gonna give me the truth. Like you're gonna tell me we shouldn't do that. You're not gonna say yes to say yes. But my thing is it's like, I'd love to act like it's completely altruistic. But the other part of that too is I've seen what happens when you don't do that, right? It's like it doesn't work out well for anybody. So I just look at it as an energy type thing where I'm like, we...
say yes and placate this person now and we know this is not gonna pan out, you're just gonna have all the angst later, right? It's like, I'd rather just have that conversation upfront, manage the expectations so they can make a decision fully informed because the explosions later are much easier to manage. Cause like, remember we talked about this, we told you that, you know what I mean? It's kind of like, here's the email thread, here was the data I pulled, here's, it makes it, it deescalates everything really quickly to just.
kind of see around the corners up front versus clients want to be told yes, they want to feel good, but I just don't ever see it work out very well later. It's like, you got to choose where you take the medicine. You know what I mean?
Tom Hootman (26:22)
Yeah, no, yeah, you're right.
One of my favorite things that you do is like setting that benchmark or framework because you've done this a few times and then and then referring back to it. It's like, remember, we talked about this and here's what we said. This is the mission. Here's the expectations. It's a fantastic way to.
Susan (26:32)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yep.
Tom Hootman (26:43)
You almost like go to the court reporter and you're like, can you repeat the answer to question four? And they like pull up their little thing and they're like, this is what they said. Because the client's even like, yeah, you're right. It's a little dose of medicine. Like, hey, remember, we're taking vitamins here. We're not taking medicine. Here's a little bit of medicine to make you feel better, reminding you why we're taking vitamins.
Susan (26:45)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, But ⁓
Tom Hootman (27:29)
It's a d-d-d-d-d
Susan (27:30)
I'm
like, I know, I know, I see it. I see that it's over there. I know it looks really interesting. I know you want to pull off the interstate and like, it's like, you know, when you're driving down 95 and you see Pedro at South of the border, you're like, wow, that looks, that's weird. Like, look, there's weird stuff. Let's get off and explore. I'm like, nope, no. We are going to Key West, my friend. We are, we need to make it to Key West in four days. We will not do it if we stop at South of the border. Like it's not going to happen. So it's like, it, but it's, you know, it's, even as a marketer, it's like, there are things where you're like, that's kind of cool. But I, you can't,
get distracted because then all of a sudden, then it's like ADHD. The next thing you know, you're like, how did we get here? Like, why are we looking at this? What are we doing here? So it's, but it's, easy, I think for brands to get distracted by that stuff and feel like they can be successful at all of the things. And it's like, that's why it's super important to be like, ultimately this is what we want. And how, you know, are you...
Tom Hootman (28:05)
What the fuck are we doing here?
Susan (28:23)
regimented about how we get there, because if so, we might not get there. Some places are like, it has to be this, we need to spend this much in this. And I'm like, if what you care about is total return on your marketing spend, you gotta be open to being fluid, right? Like it can't be like, it has to be this much goes to this, this much goes It's like, if there's an overall business goal, that's what we're aiming towards. And what that looks like is gonna change probably over time.
Tom Hootman (28:43)
I like it. You're a doctor. You dispense medicine. You dispense hard truth. I want to touch on this before we wrap because I don't think, I don't think everyone knows this because you are one of the busiest people I've ever met. And at some point in your life recently, you said, I want to start a candle company.
Susan (28:44)
Yeah.
I didn't have enough going on, I was bored. ⁓ Yeah. Yeah.
Tom Hootman (29:04)
So Can'tdles is your candle company. You're always
going to some show and you're always selling a ton of candles.
How long ago did you decide to found this? And like, what made you start a candle company of all things?
Susan (29:12)
I'm
So
it wasn't like, I don't know, when people say, when did you start it? I'm like, I don't really feel like I started seeing what I could do with it until like, 2023. Do know what I mean? Like, I started messing around with making stuff in 2021, but I didn't set out to make it like a business. It was a good friend of mine, kind of adjacent to our industry had passed away very suddenly. And he was
one of the most brilliant creative people I'd ever worked with. I've always been very, one of those odd mixes of like right brain, left brain. Like I'm sure you've seen it, like I can do the data stuff, but then it's like, I can turn that off and be like, this is why your ad copy isn't working. It needs to be written like this. So it's like, I have this fluid, this fluidity that exists between both sides of my brain. And he used to always give me shit, cause he's like, you never do anything creative. Like we worked together, we'd had clients together.
Tom Hootman (29:51)
Hmm? Totally.
Susan (30:02)
He's like, you're always in spreadsheets. He's like, you need to do something. Because as a creative, he's like, you need to feed that. You're going to become miserable if you don't. And he was right. I had stopped reading fiction. had stopped. I just wasn't doing anything creative. And I didn't realize how much it was withering away my soul to not do that. So when he passed away, I was like, OK, so this was kind of like my to honor him. You were right. I'm not taking care of that side of myself.
So I just started kind of messing around with making things. And for whatever reason, when I started just messing around, because I always liked scents, I'd always been a scent person. And I started making them and my friends were like, I would totally pay you for these. And I'm like, really? I'm like, and I really was just kind of like, it's a way to fund a hobby I like. You know what I mean? wasn't, I was like, it just, if it pays for itself and it breaks even, I enjoy doing it, whatever. So I started doing like a couple, just like one day.
craft shows at breweries and stuff like that. And I was doing really well. I was a little surprised. And it was fun for me because I was able to just, could do it. I could market it the way I wanted. I could name the stuff whatever I wanted. I could design things however I wanted. I just had complete creative freedom to just do what I wanted. And it was very low risk. It's like, okay, if it doesn't work out, I lost a few hundred bucks, right? But it started really taking off. Then in 2023, did a, I was like, you know what? Let's just do something big and just see what it does. You know what I mean? I'm just curious.
So I did this enormous, got in, which kind of shocked me, but I did this enormous four-day Christmas show that's here in Richmond that draws in people from everywhere. It's this night. This will be the one the first week in December. So this is another month and a half away. I'm already making stuff.
Tom Hootman (31:23)
Is this the same one you're doing? Like, next week?
Okay. It's like the Chris
Kindle market, right? Like I have friends who go to this big market and like there's one in Louisville and there's one in Indy and it's like huge and it's just, yeah.
Susan (31:38)
Yeah, it's called
the Bazaar Bazaar and it's, this is its 50th anniversary and it's like, it's kind of fun when you go, cause it's like, there's like the grandma that's been going since it started and she's there with her daughter who she took when she was little. Now they're, so they all come in like matching Christmas outfits. Like it's really fun. Everyone has a really great time. It's shoulder to shoulder craziness in the aisles. Like it's, it is, and it's 11 hours a day. It's nonstop. And I was like, well, let's just try it. And I did ridiculously well.
And like my website sales popped off the month after, because everybody went through what they got for Christmas and they ordered more. And I was like, shit, I think I have a business. I think people really, because I'm so generally ambitious, I think people thought I sat down and made this business plan and decided, I really didn't. I was literally just like, this is just fun and I'll do it. And then people kept buying and I'm like, ⁓ okay. I guess I'll just keep doing this. And so I just have done the same.
Tom Hootman (32:12)
You have a business.
That's what I thought.
Susan (32:30)
⁓ I have some shows that I do religiously every year because people come, they're like my regulars now. They show up, I go up to DC, they come to all three shows a year, they buy a ton from me, and then they go back. And then over the summer, they'll buy a couple things here and there. And I just, it's been fun to like get reactions to stuff in person too, I think, because I'm so used to online sales where it's like, all you have is data. You know I mean? like.
The only feedback you have is did somebody buy something or did they not? What ad did they click on to buy it? And I don't even run ads for this side of my life. It's all in-person word of mouth, outreach to wholesale, that kind of stuff. So it was an interesting thing as a marketer to watch someone give me money for something that my two hands made. I don't know how this took, it's weird. It was very surreal. like, I just made that last week and someone wants to give me money for it. Like it was a very strange feeling.
⁓ But then also just seeing people's in-person reactions to things was super interesting. Because I was never on that side of marketing. I didn't do focus groups or anything like that, ever. So it's kind of like a focus group, where you're just watching, what do people like? What do they not like? What do they comment on? How do they feel about the price? It's a lot of studying humans and how they interact with your stuff, which is just very different than the rest of my marketing life.
Tom Hootman (33:41)
This is remarkable. Have you ever thought about, is it gonna stay like just this thing you do? Or have you ever been like, wonder how far I could push this? Like you talked about not doing ads for it, but like, have you ever thought about this is a true e-com play? Do I hire staff?
Susan (33:50)
I wonder if...
Yeah, eventually I'll wind up hiring. Like I said, my husband has learned how to make a lot of stuff. He never knew he was going to become a candle maker and a room and linen spray maker, but here we are. Eventually I'll hire. We're at the point where it's like, think it's grown enough that we'll be able to make some different decisions next year about how we want to do stuff. I've scaled the wholesale side, which that was kind of fun that I think that I was successful with that because of the marketing. Like I have an email.
Tom Hootman (34:01)
Yeah.
Susan (34:20)
drip that goes out and I monitored open rates and response rates and take rates from samples. Like there is that part that I think gave me an edge where it's like I was able to identify quickly these are the types of stores I do well at. I concentrated on focusing outreach to them. So it's like I knew kind of what to look for it. Like when you see something working with a double down on. So that part of my background helped because it's easy to want to just make the stuff you like making. Right. You're like I'm just going to do that. And then no one buys it. You're like OK I don't have a business. So.
kind of knowing what to be like, I give the people what they want, know, paying attention to that. But I think my plan is eventually like someday when I retire from digital marketing, I'd love to still have this running and just do that because like I'll never I'm never going to retire and sit and do crossword puzzles. It's just not how I'm built. Like I need something to do. So. Yeah, so ⁓ it's a fun side thing. It's not it's not my living, but it's it brings me a lot of joy. So.
Tom Hootman (35:01)
No, don't.
don't see that in your future.
Well, and there's an element of it that it's, like you said, it's something you created, it's by hand. I like that it's in person, you travel for it. Like you're always talking about loading up the truck and going to the shop and like there's...
Susan (35:15)
Yep. Yeah.
I'm in great shape. Loading 45 pound boxes
of cases of wax keeps me in really good shape. ⁓
Tom Hootman (35:28)
And
I'm always talking about them because we're fucking kindred spirits, but Jeff Allen and I have talked a lot about you need something in our business, you need something to do that only you control and that you're responsible for creating, whether it's landscaping or whether it's woodworking or whether there's it's running or working. There's something that you need that isn't just influencing and hoping for the best through tactics, but as like I am the only one who can do this.
Susan (35:39)
Yeah. Yes.
Yeah. Yeah.
Tom Hootman (35:56)
and I am solely responsible for being able to make this happen. And I think that that is to me, it's a red thread across people with good balance and successful marketers in that you need, it helps me turn it off. If I'm installing a new thermostat this weekend, it's like a little thing that I broke a wire while I was doing it and I was like, fuck.
Susan (36:05)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, 100%.
Tom Hootman (36:21)
And there's no one to do. I mean, have a guy, Pete could come bail me out if it's truly fucked. But really, like, it's the last thing I want to do. Like, I need to solve this problem. And you were talking about like the the wax shortage. you just like I to solve this.
Susan (36:31)
It's an in... Yeah, I was gonna say that.
There's something to knowing that you have to solve the problem. And it's amazing the confidence you start to build over time. That's when people are like, my God, you pack up and go to a show, I don't know how you could do it. I'm like, but once you have no choice but to do that, you realize it's not that scary. And it was like, was telling you, there was a major disruption at the largest manufacturer of the...
the wax that like pretty much every maker in this country uses. They own like probably 90 % of the market. The plant is completely shut down. Every supplier that you buy from sent emails last Wednesday, Thursday. And they're like, hey, basically what's on our shelves and what's already on trucks to us is all we're gonna have for the season. That's it. So it became one of those things where we're like, all right, well, I've already got four shows I've committed to that cost me about $4,000 in booth fees. I can't not have stuff to sell there. So it's like you sit,
over the weekend doing math of like how much can we stock up on? Can we get through the holidays? Can we? But it's like they're interesting problems to solve. And I think the other piece that's been interesting is I do a lot of white label like for events and you know corporate gifting and that kind of stuff. And very like 500 candle custom order is going out this week. So
Tom Hootman (37:40)
some large corporate stuff.
Susan (37:46)
I think what's interesting is people are like, oh, do you not like that as much? Because it's not my brand. And I'm like, I actually find it really fun. And I think it's the marketer part of me because it's helping them solve the problem of, I need to give out something cool. This is the theme. What can you make that smells like it? Or is a funny nod to it? Or can we name it something amusing? It still scratches that creative itch for me. Even though it sounds like it would be drier, it's not. It's actually super interesting to me because it's not a
It's a different marketing problem than I would normally solve, right? It's not, I'm making stuff for people I would never make for my own brand, but they're like, can you do this? And I'm like, sure, you know, it's like, we'll figure it out. So it's fun to solve those problems for people still.
Tom Hootman (38:15)
Yeah.
Are you going to have enough inventory? This? Yeah.
Susan (38:26)
Yeah,
I will have enough to make ⁓ over 2000 candles. I may have overbought it. The problem is they don't know when it's gonna open back up. So I was like, we just need to pretend like I'm not gonna have anything until like February and let's just plan accordingly. They're also discontinuing one of the jars I use. So that was fun to find out in the same week. So I'm like, okay, we'll figure that out too. So that's the next problem that's less pressing because they have a lot more stock of that. But yeah, the wax stuff.
I mean, we're getting 20 cases. They're 45 pounds a piece. They'll be arriving here today. So we'll be unloading cases of wax. I don't know where we're going to put it all. Like, we have a little studio shop. It's probably going to take up a good half of it in the back. So, but it is what it is.
Tom Hootman (38:53)
Jesus.
I love it. I mean, I'm
a customer there as well. I was actually burning one of my candles over the weekend. it's, Susan, thank you. I appreciate your time. Wonderful catching up. It's hilarious because I did make you do this at 9 a.m. on a Monday and I appreciate you making time for me. I would not have asked if I did not know.
Susan (39:09)
Yeah.
I'm a morning person though, you know I'm way better in the morning. You know by 2pm I'm like, don't
fucking schedule anything with me after 2pm, I'm horrible.
Tom Hootman (39:28)
You're
always the first green light who beats me on Slack every morning. So thank you for making time. I really appreciate it. And I'll see you in about an hour at our weekly sound check meeting. Thanks for making time. Bye.
Susan (39:36)
Yeah, you will. Sure.