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Power Onward is the podcast that unveils how power technology shapes your everyday life.
From the tech powering your daily life to the innovations driving industries forward, we talk about it all.
Brought to you by Cummins, each episode explores what’s fueling the future and why it matters for your mission, business, and community.
This is Power Onward,
the podcast that unveils how power
technology shapes your everyday life.
You are listening to Power Onward.
What is Powering Your World? Power Onward.
This is Power Onward,
the podcast that unveils how power
technology shapes your everyday life.
What if the waste we throw away could
power the trucks that bring our world to
life, food waste, farm waste, and
even trash from your local landfill.
It's called renewable natural gas or RNG,
and it's turning what we throw away into
the fuel that keeps our world moving
from package deliveries
to long-haul trucking.
RNG is quietly reshaping how
goods get from point A to point B,
pushing us all closer to
a cleaner future. I'm Kim.
And I'm Dave.
So Dave,
I've heard the phrase turning trash into
transportation and it really does sound
too good to be true. So
talk to me about RNG.
Sure, Kim. I like that
phrase. I like to think of it.
One man's trash is another man's
treasure or fuel in this case.
And when we think about
trash in waste streams,
did you know that we produce
in the US over 300 million
tons of trash per year? A
ton per person per year.
In addition, a lot of that's food waste.
So 30 to 40% of our food
goes into a waste stream.
So that's just pure trash.
And there's over 10 million
dairy cattle in the US and
that there is 5 million tons
of wastewater biosolids,
and those are just part of our
waste stream, which are problems.
There are problems that we need
to resolve and RNG can be that
solution, RNG, which is
renewable natural gas.
We always throw those three letters out.
Yes, so RNG comes from waste,
but what exactly does
that process look like?
So think about our trash
going into a landfill,
and so it breaks down
the organic material,
breaks down in a non-oxygen
environment, so that's anaerobic.
And so then it eventually
produces methane and CO2
primarily.
Now you can also artificially
do that with digesters.
Those are other waste streams like food
waste that's diverted to a digester
or dairy cattle manure or
other animal waste streams or
other ag waste.
And then it's put into a digester
and then anaerobically digested again
without oxygen and outcomes methane,
CO2 and just a few other things.
So scrub those gases up or
clean them up and now you've got
effectively 95 or more
percent pure methane.
That's basically renewable natural gas,
but it's exactly the same thing as
natural gas. It's in our pipeline,
it comes into our homes every day.
Wow. That's not as complicated
as I thought it would be.
It really is just a series of
chemical reactions and like you said,
you scrub them up and clean
it up and there it is.
Yeah,
you just separate out the CO2 can
be captured or released separately
and get out some moisture
and things like that.
So what type of vehicles and operations
can actually benefit from RNG or
renewable natural gas?
So from a commercial and Cummins
commercial vehicle space,
we use engines, sell
engines into transit buses,
medium duty trucks, vocational trucks,
and then regional and line haul trucks.
It's everywhere. We have a diesel engine,
we have a natural gas engine
which can use renewable natural
gas as a solution for that and then fits
right into the operation that they're
used to today.
So exactly how does RNG
help fleets, decarbonize?
We had talked about sustainability,
economic efficiency,
and even a competitive edge. Right?
Can you tell me more about that?
That's right.
So by using the waste stream and
producing renewable natural gas
and then displacing higher
carbon fuel like diesel,
it's a win-win for the environment
because we get the reduction in our
waste streams or managed or controlled,
and then we're not using fuel
that comes out of the ground,
we're producing our own fuel and fleets
can use that to then they've got a
lower cost fuel in natural
gas, renewable natural gas.
So there's an economic win for them
and there's a sustainability or an
environmental, and depending on what
they're going for, it's lower NOx.
So nitrogen oxides into the
atmosphere and it's also lower
carbon. So from a well to wheel
perspective, renewable natural gas,
natural gas in itself is lower
carbon intensity than diesel.
And renewable natural gas can be
an extremely low carbon intensity
fuel. It can be negative in
some cases like dairy manure. By
capturing that methane, it
can be 300, 400, 500 negative
carbon intensity.
For those who want to know what does
carbon intensity is effectively the
equivalent CO2 per unit of energy.
So if diesel's a hundred
CI and NG can be about 80,
and then when you go to
renewable natural gas
can be different sources and
methods can be different numbers.
So landfill gas to
wastewater to dairy manure,
and it can be really
negative. In fact, California,
they have a low carbon fuel
standard system out there,
so they measure all the
fuels that vehicles use.
And renewable natural gas has
an average carbon intensity of
minus 194 as compared to a hundred for
diesel,
and that's 99% of natural gas trucks and
vehicles in California
use renewable natural gas.
So it's a huge win for the fleets,
for California, for the
environment for the United States.
90% Is way more than
I would ever envision.
I didn't realize how prevalent
and how present this all is.
Yeah, it's 99% in California
and for the US overall it's over
79% of commercial transportation is using
renewable natural gas.
So this is probably why I've been
hearing various companies such as waste
management companies that are continuing
to displace their diesel with RNG
trucks. Right?
That's exactly right.
Over 60% of new refuge trucks are c and g
or compressed natural gas.
And so of that majority of them
effectively are renewable natural gas.
And some of the refuse companies produce
their own natural gas or renewable
natural gas because again, the landfills,
they're huge sources of
natural gas production.
And so waste management as an example,
does that very thing as
do many of the others.
Dave, you mentioned CNG. So what's
the difference between CNG and RNG?
So if you think about it,
it's natural gas and it can be
stored on a vehicle as compressed
natural gas or as a liquid,
but then the source of that
gas can be fossil natural
gas IE weld right out of the ground where
it can be renewable natural gas.
And so then that's coming from
a renewable biodegraded organic
material.
So you always see C and G
and RNG kind of thrown around
C and G and LNG. You just really
how it gets soared on the field.
Got it.
You mentioned the dairy farms and the
first time one of our colleagues had told
me that one of the dairy farm
companies that I'm a big fan of,
they use the methane from the ways from
the cows on their farms to then fuel
their fleets, which I thought
was freely really efficient.
So are there any other testimonials that
showcase why RNG should matter to all
of us or fun stories that we can
talk about on this shit show?
Love it. I love it.
One of our customers that we started
field testing with in the development
program who are the X15N,
they were going to haul
manure for air farms
to a digester.
And when they realized the
capability that the engine had,
they were using charge wealth
leader engines to do it already.
They use the 15 wheeler to then haul
milk because obviously the dairy
cows, one of the things that
comes out of a dairy cow is milk.
And so they collect the
milk in the Arizona area,
and so they are able to haul
over 120,000 pound tankers
of milk with the X 15 in.
So now they're hauling manure with
natural gas engines or renewable
natural gas as the fuel's being created
there and they're going out and then
collecting the milk from those
same dairy farms and taking it
to the dairy processing.
So you've get almost a full circle
economy there where the cows
produce milk and it's hauled with
renewable natural gas back to
packaging.
And then you have the excrement
of the dairy cows that is then
hauled away to a digester to
then produce fuel to then run
all of those trucks. So
it's beautiful. And in fact,
they even named their first test truck
a big Bertha because it was such a heavy
haul truck and they love it.
Big Bertha is a very fitting
name for that big hauler.
I can't get over the fact that I
am finding this full cycle very
satisfying. And again,
we're talking about excrement and waste
and it's just how it comes together so
beautifully for those
companies. And again,
very satisfying to see that full circle
and have very minimal waste come from
all of this.
It's moving to see RNG displacing our
diesel fuel and some might say it's
utterly a great way to make
use of that waste stream.
I had to work my dad joke in there, Kim.
I'm welcoming all the dad jokes and that
one actually took me a little bit off
guard, so that was a good one. All right.
So I guess what I'm hearing is that
RNG isn't really new, it's just better.
And you had mentioned the X15N engine,
and I remember hearing that it was in
full production in our Jamestown engine
plant up in New York.
So how has this first year shaped the
industry's view of natural gas as a
viable solution?
Sure. Yeah. RNG is not new.
It's been around forever in
various forms of how we use those
types of waste streams,
but the very first industrialized
RNG facility was like in
1982 in New York on Staten Island.
So a little fun fact for you,
but now there's over 500
RNG production facilities.
And so not only is the quantity
of going from one landfill on
Staten Island to now RNG
production facilities,
500 plus operational
today and another nearly
500 more either in
construction or planned,
the quantities growing and then the
technology going into 'em to really
optimize,
make 'em the most efficient
producers of renewable fuel.
And so you talked about the
one year anniversary, the X15N.
It's been fabulous, right?
We've had people refer to it as it's
a game changer for the industry,
which is pretty exciting to hear that
reference. And so there's been a lot of
excitement,
a lot of customers who were
natural gas customers with us
adopting,
but also customers who have
never used natural gas and
they're trying it out, they're
moving some of their fleet over.
And then what really gets exciting
is when we see repeat buys.
So even within the one year we've got
customers that jumped in the line right
away, got trucks, tried 'em out, and
now they've re-upped their order.
And in some cases we've had
a third order from customers,
and that's all just within one
year. It's really exciting.
We've won some awards. I was just in
New York City on behalf of Cummins,
receiving an award for the
X15N with FedEx Leadership
Visionary Award from Energy Vision.
We won an award through
TMC just earlier this year,
and heavy duty trucking awarded
Cummins one of the top 20 new products
just a couple years ago.
So pretty exciting for to be a
part of a program and an engine
that is a game changer.
That's sensational all
of this within a year.
It's very telling and it
speaks volume on the product.
And for anyone who's listening on audio
platforms and not watching on YouTube,
Dave actually has his X15N come
and shirt on to represent this.
So he's a game changer
and a trend setter now.
Thanks, Kim.
Earlier, I did want to
touch on something else.
You had mentioned the quantity of RNG
being way more available than it has been
before, and I think that's a
common misconception about RNG.
So tell me about some other
misconceptions about natural gas.
Sure. Some people like said, is there
going to be enough? Is there enough?
We continue to invent new waste streams.
I mentioned a few,
but those continue to grow as we
try to manage the waste that we
continue to produce.
We're going to see
landfill waste increase by
60 to 70% by 2050.
That's staggering alone.
So more RNG is coming and
we're going to continue to have
farms and produce food
and produce waste there.
So economically, some people
think it's expensive, right?
And it's not really natural gas is
cheaper than diesel. Generally speaking,
it's a much more stable fuel price.
So therefore there's a huge economic win,
a fleet to make that investment
move over to natural gas,
renewable natural gas,
and then the payoff on that capital
investment. At the same time,
get the environmental, probably
most people don't know it,
but the US is a part of a methane pledge.
We want to reduce
globally methane by 30% by
2030, right?
That's methane released into
the atmosphere and there
are all kinds of sources
of that. But some of
these ag waste landfills,
those are sources of methane
that get into the atmosphere and
methane. Just another
quick fact for you, Kim,
it's 28 times worse than c2.
So CO2 gets all the limelight it.
Does.
Or all the blame does, but methane,
28 times over a hundred years
kind of look at it's 28 times
worse than co2.
So our biggest impact we can
make is really tackling that
methane right away and we
can make a huge impact.
For a long time, basically,
since before we spoke,
I really thought carbon dioxide was the
biggest culprit. It was the biggest.
We always talk about CO2 reduction and
learning that methane is far more toxic
and pollutant in the air. Again, it's
a fun fact. Very interesting fact,
but also not so fun because
nobody wants that. Nobody asked.
For that. That's right.
One of the things that we have discussed
now is that the displacement of
diesel technology into
more of the natural gas,
is this what we would
consider a bridge fuel?
It all depends on what
you consider a bridge,
but I think it's a very long bridge,
right? So renewable natural gas,
natural gas engines really
are the easiest step
into a low carbon fuel
situation for a fleet.
It slips right into their
operation, fuels fast,
it's very familiar kind of
technology and really can do the
job that diesel does.
So that's the easy part,
but it does pave the way for
other future gaseous fuels,
perhaps hydrogen or other
technologies where it's just a lower
carbon fuel, but maybe
some other things to learn.
So it was an easy step to take
to start learning those things.
And again, that bridge can be very
long. We've got a lot of natural gas,
we've got supply of renewable natural gas,
and if I didn't say it enough times,
it can be a carbon negative solution.
So it's better than electricity today.
Electricity is not carbon free
from a well to wheel perspective,
right? It is at the tailpipe.
But if you consider from the source
of the fuel, whether it's coal,
natural gas or windlow
or nuclear, renewable,
natural gas is the only
one that's truly negative.
And we love baby steps. Like
you said, just ease right in.
Dip your toes in the water's fine.
Exactly.
We got a long way for this long bridge,
so let's take that baby step. Alright,
so before we wrap,
I'd love to know what are drivers saying
about their experience with their RNG
trucks?
So the best compliment that
we've gotten is drives like mind
diesel, and that's exactly
what we're going for.
So thinking back to that bridge
question you asked now is we want
this to be seamless.
We want it to be non-disruptive
because transportation
companies, they're trying to do a job,
whether it's hauling people in a school
bus and get 'em to their homes at night
or work in the morning,
or a shipper hauling their goods
to the store so that we can
buy it. That's what they're trying to do.
And what we want to do is make
the transition to low carbon,
no carbon fuels as easy and
as painless as possible.
So if we can make it drive like my diesel,
maybe a little bit quieter and maybe
there's not an odor that they may
associate with diesel
fuel, that's a great win.
And so we continue to win customers over.
Once they drive it, they're surprised.
They're like, wow, I didn't expect that.
And so that's the best thing we can hear.
A pleasant surprise and a
very strong user experience.
What more could we ask for?
Exactly.
All right, Dave, I really
appreciate your time today.
Thanks for helping us fuel
the conversation on how RNG
continues to drive fleets
forward.
Hey, you're welcome.
Thanks for having me, Kim.
Anytime. Alright, so what's the
big idea for this episode? Yes.
Renewable natural gas has
been around for a while,
but the innovation happening is
making it more powerful than ever.
It's fuel made from waste that can
power trucks, reduce emissions,
and keep goods moving reliably across
the country with technologies like the
X15N engine.
Cummins is making RNG a real part of
the journey towards destination zero.
The takeaway cleaner transportation
doesn't mean starting over.
It means getting smarter
with what we already have.
Power Onward.
Thank you for listening to Power Onward.
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If you want to dig deeper
on what we covered today,
check out the show notes for
additional links or go to
cummins.com/podcast. Until next time,
power Onward.
We are from Cummins,
the company that's been innovating
toward the future for more than a hundred
years. We're no strangers to rapid change,
global shifts and economic uncertainty.
We want to be your constant during
the energy transition whenever,
wherever, forever, Power Onward.