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The Transform your Teaching podcast is a service of the Center for Teaching and Learning at Cedarville University in Cedarville, Ohio. Join Dr. Rob McDole and Dr. Jared Pyles as they seek to inspire higher education faculty to adopt innovative teaching and learning practices.
Hello, faithful transforming teaching listeners. As you may or may not know, we've been running a survey to get your feedback on our podcast. We mentioned that if you fill it out, you'll be entered into a drawing to win a fancy coffee mug or tea or soup, whatever it is you wanna put into the mug. And we had drawings in October, and now we have one here in November and December. And it's time to announce the November winner.
Jared:The winner of this month's coffee mug is Katie Farrell. Congratulations, Katie. And it's not too late to participate. You can find the link to our survey in this episode's show notes. Thanks for listening.
Daniel:The back channel is kind of like our hallway as online students. That's our place, like our water cooler, and it's where we can feel open to talk about things and not feel that we're going to face repercussions from those discussions. I think that's very important.
Narrator:This is the Transform Your Teaching podcast. The Transform Your Teaching podcast is a service of the Center for Teaching and Learning at Cedarville University in Cedarville, Ohio.
Jared:Welcome to the Transform Your Teaching podcast on the campus of Cedarville University. My name is Jared Piles, and with me is doctor Rob McDowell. Hello.
Jared:Hello, Doctor. Rob McDowell. We are so interesting story. I don't know if you know, but I just finished my dissertation and I'm a doctor now at Boise State.
Rob:Well, congratulations, Doctor. Piles.
Jared:Did you know that?
Rob:I did.
Jared:Yeah. So I don't know if you heard that at all. So Boise State is a fully online their doctorate is a fully online program, doctor of education, education technology. And we have with us some Boise State students because one of the guests who is a loyal listener, Daniel, I'll let you guys introduce yourselves here in a little bit, mentioned, hey, you should do an episode on the backchannel communication that we have done as a cohort throughout the the process. And we'll explain what back channel communication is and all that here in a second.
Jared:But we have a bunch of really cool people here to to work with us.
Rob:For our listeners, we have your cohort
Jared:My cohort.
Rob:With us as guests today.
Jared:That some of them. Not all of them.
Rob:Not all of them, but
Jared:Way too many.
Rob:It looks like you've got four.
Jared:The cool ones showed up. Wow. Alright. So let's let you guys introduce yourselves. Daniel, we'll start with you.
Jared:Tell us where you are in the program, where you work, whatever you want to divulge. Feel free.
Daniel:Absolutely. So my name is Daniel Singletary. I am hoping to be defending my dissertation in March. So almost done with the program. Currently, I am the, I guess, the trainer and lead development person for the Texas A and M Agriculture, Food and Nutrition Evidence Center.
Daniel:That's a mouthful. And so I train our staff and other external stakeholders on systematic reviews and kind of how to conduct those and through research. So the doc program really did help me out in preparing me for this role.
Ariel:Hi. My name is Ariel Horan, and I direct the Silver Valley Upward Bound program at the University of Idaho. I was actually I guessed a couple about a month ago.
Rob:Yeah. So great episode.
Ariel:Great to come back. And just a quick reminder to anyone that didn't catch that one, Upward Bound is a college access program, not a wilderness camping for trouble beats program. I defended my dissertation in April, and it focused on rural education in k 12 settings and the intersection between that and smartphones and online education. So that's it for me.
Jared:Ariel is a repeat guest. Let's go to our next repeat guest on the panel, Kim Woodruff.
Kim:Hi, everyone. I'm Kim Woodruff. I have laryngitis, but I'm gonna do my best. I am director of instructional design at Manhattan University now. Used to be Manhattan College.
Kim:And I'm not quite as far along as everyone else, but I hope to defend my dissertation next fall. And I'm actually gonna be doing my dissertation on the topic of backchanneling. And I was inspired by my backchanneling experience with all of you.
Jared:That's cool. That's cool. And last but not least.
Jamie:Hi. My name is Jamie Bick, and I defended my dissertation in September, so I'm
Jamie:done.
Rob:Congratulations.
Jamie:Thank you. I'm an instructional specialist in school districts in Mount Home, Idaho.
Jamie:So I'm about forty minutes away from Boise, and I support our elementary school teachers in all areas, literacy instruction and classroom management. And then my dissertation was based on database decision making, and that really helped me a lot in my job with teachers as I work with them to use data to guide their instruction.
Jared:There you go.
Rob:Well, it is an honor to have you all here. I'm looking forward to this conversation. So where are we gonna kick this off?
Jared:I think we should start with a definition of what backchanneling is. And since it's Kim's field for her dissertation, and if this is the only thing she contributes because her voice gives out, that's fine. But Kim, could you give us the, I don't know what you wanna call it, the most cited or the most recommended definition of backchannel communication?
Kim:Sure. I can do that. I've spent a lot of time on this. The term backchannel has actually been around for a long time, but its meaning has evolved over time as technology evolves. Backchannel used to mean the kind of things that we do during a face to face conversation.
Kim:Like, if you say mhmm or yeah during a conversation, that was considered a backchannel. But nowadays, backchannel more commonly refers to a secondary path of communication that's going on parallel to a primary form of communication. So for example, at a conference, if a speaker was speaking and people were talking on a hashtag, on x at the same time, having kind of a little side conversation, that would be considered a backchannel. Usually, the communication in a backchannel is digital.
Rob:So it's not the meeting after the meeting, Just
Jared:to be It is not.
Kim:Yeah. Nope. It's usually happening at the same time.
Rob:Okay.
Jared:Started, Kim, you started the Discord server for our cohort, if I'm recalling correctly.
Kim:Yes, that's true.
Jared:Okay. And then so she started it, and was it prompted by our instructors, or was it something you decided to do organically?
Kim:It's something that came about from another student who was had the same adviser. So we had a kind of meeting amongst us, and she basically just said, hey. Set up some sort of way of communicating with your cohort so that you have a way to ask questions and talk about things that are going on. Because she just had had an experience using it and just found it really helpful. So I actually brought it up.
Kim:And during one of our meetings, like, one of our whole cohort meetings. And I have to say the instructors weren't actually all that on board with the idea, but a couple of the other students said do it, so I did. And that's how we got here.
Rob:So I've got a couple of questions, and I think some things that might help our listeners as we talk about this because I can see that this could be very valuable to those who are listening. But one thing I I think we need to do is tell because I don't think everybody who listens to us probably understands what Discord is. So Discord, and I'm gonna give my shot at it because I don't really use it a lot. We do use it here, But my understanding of it is it started out as more of a communication platform for those who are doing games and watching people that play games. So communities built up around gameplay.
Rob:Is that correct?
Jared:I would say it's an accurate statement.
Rob:Yeah. Alright. It has morphed from that. And so you've got communities all from OpenAI, Midjourney actually runs their text to image model inside of Discord. So that it's it's much bigger than that, but this is the tool that you all used.
Rob:So we've got that covered for our listeners so that if they wanna find out about Discord, they can go and search on it, and they can find all sorts of things. But it's kind of like a Teams for the rest of the world.
Jared:Teams or Slack?
Rob:Yeah. Teams or Slack. And I think the thing that I think I would like to ask you all is what will this do for those who are listening? Why is the conversation about back channels in your estimation important for educators? What should we know?
Jamie:So I would say I would not be where I am at today if it wasn't for the back channel because it really provided a level of support that I needed to get through that program. I have completed so my elementary ed program, we it was a cohort model, but it was all in person. But then my master's and my EDS, which was at Boise State, we had no cohort model, and I was entirely alone, but it was entirely different experience than than a doctorate program. And so that level of support and just being able to ask questions and a space to vent and for laughter in the midst of all the process, because it's a very hard process, and not a lot of people understand it if you're not in it.
Rob:Yeah. So a lot of a lot of support. It sounds like I'm hearing support. And I think what's interesting to me is that somebody just like Kim and Ariel just were like, we're gonna do this, and they did. So do you think this is a common feature in Boise or places all around, or is it just something that has happened for you all?
Jared:That might be a Kim question. Yeah. Laryngitis, Kim.
Kim:Well, I did my literature review on this, and it's definitely not isolated to Boise State. There's backgiling going on all over the place, but I'd say there's not a lot of research on it because a lot of times it is student driven. So students are coming up with it, students are communicating, but they're not necessarily advertising that to, you know, their instructors or their programs. So it's sort of happening on the down low to some extent. But one thing, like, I teach a class.
Kim:It's not an online class. It's a hybrid class. But I saw so much value in backchanneling that I encourage my students to start a backchannel amongst themselves. So, basically, we have kind of a class meeting, and they discuss my class is about ed tech and about choosing ed tech. So we kind of do an exercise where they choose their platform that they're gonna form their back channel on as kind of, you know, wants and needs for the technology.
Kim:So it's a little meta. But they come up with what platform they're gonna use. Somebody takes on the responsibility of getting it started and inviting everyone to it. And then they have the option to participate in that. And I'm not involved in it.
Kim:I just facilitate the process of creating it, because I want them to have a space to talk to each other separate from me. So it is, I think, a pretty common phenomenon, but it's not something that people always think about.
Jared:I wanna come back to that at some point, because I'm intrigued about instructor encouraged backchanneling. Because I wonder if our experience would be different if someone who was an instructor set up our Discord or set up our backchannel. I would have been more apprehensive to do it because I feel like at some point it was going to come back up like the stuff that we said. Not that it was all horrible. I'm curious what you guys think, and we'll spring in the battle red Texan, Daniel, into this.
Jared:I wanna ask you first. Do you think it would have been different if it was instructor led? By the way, that's his name on Discord, battle red Texan.
Rob:Okay.
Jared:You're gonna get lots of friend requests now, Daniel. So
Daniel:Hey. That would be awesome. So, absolutely, it would be different because I feel like the the Discord, the back channel is kind of like our hallway as online students. That's our place, like our water cooler, you know, at a workplace, and it's where we can feel open to talk about things involving our instructors or the assignments that we're doing and not feel that we're going to face repercussions from those discussions. I think that's very important.
Daniel:As EPAD, Doctor. Lowenthal on, one of our professors in the past, talking about online presence. And so I think it is very important that we have a back channel, and that it is a place to be able to talk about things that we wouldn't want our instructors to be in a conversation. In particular, I had a certain professor that I won't name names here, but that professor was very difficult, at least for me to work with. And it was a professor who liked to call people out in the online discussion forums that we had to submit our discussions and assignments into.
Daniel:But if you met with them one on one in private, they were a completely different person. I would have never known that if it wasn't for Discord, if it wasn't for y'all telling me, hey. This person they treat you differently based on the environment even though it's all online that you're in and that they're in. And so in a public environment, they can be very harsh. They very they can critique your work a lot differently than if you just meet with them privately and ask them about your assignment and some other stuff.
Daniel:So I really did appreciate the back channeling. It did help me through that. And also, did have, I guess, about a year ago in November of last year, I had a lot of stuff going on personally when I was trying to complete my comprehensive exam. And so the Discord community that we had really helped me out and helped me get through that time. So I think it is very important that we have it, but that we also kind of protect it.
Daniel:Maybe it's a good thing that it's on the down low, that we're not involving the instructors. Or maybe we should look into having one that has instructors in it, but there's a private channel where we can discuss things and not have to worry about you know, that getting out per se.
Jared:Anyone else have anything to add to that?
Ariel:I would just add, you know, I think a lot of times, like in I'm thinking back to our LMS that we used, And it did have, often in the classes, like a chat function, right, or a little informal space that was absolutely never used. Like, would be crickets. You would just it would be something that was available, and the instructor would post one thing at the beginning of the semester, and they'd say, hey. Add your thoughts here. This is your informal space, and no one would ever use it.
Ariel:And it's like, well, why is this even here? You know, we're all using this Discord thing. And I think it's because perception that even though the instructor would say, well, you know, we're not grading this, you still think that they're gonna be looking at this if you used it and judging you and to some extent. And and perhaps rightfully so. I I think back to some of our conversations on the Discord, and it's like, okay, we're talking about what our instructors are wearing during some of these seminar sessions, and it's like, he's wearing that tie again.
Ariel:And it's like, well, you know, that's not appropriate to put in the chat function of this course, but that's a way that we were kind of bonding together. And, you know, that would be something that you would have real life in that kind of hallway conversation like Daniel mentioned is that, that's kind of our our other space for us to have those conversations that are silly or not related to anything in the course, and, I think you can maybe be a little bit more authentic there.
Jared:I am very thankful for the Discord channel when we have those synchronous meetings, those seminars, because that was when it really blew up. Like, people would be, you know, respectively paying attention to these seminar teachers.
Rob:But having a conversation coming
Jared:totally different conversation. That could be related. Mostly, it was related.
Kim:I mean, it was powerful enough that Jared and Jamie and I were at the AEC conference a couple years ago and met, you know, for the first time in person. And it was just like Yep. I know these people. You know, there's my buddy Jared. There's my there's my friend Jamie.
Kim:Like, we were we were friends. Yeah. We went out to dinner, you know, the very first night because we were you know, we know each other even though we've only been on these big group Zooms or, you know, had our discussion. But, like, I know their sense of humor. I know I know what kind of people they are just from this back channel.
Kim:It's really amazing. And there's different functions. Like, it kind of sounds like we were just sitting there, you know, joking around, and we we did do a lot of joking around. But it was such a relief sometimes because, you know, you're sitting there, a lot of our assignments are due on Sunday, and everybody's sort of scrambling to get them done. And you just need that kind of comic relief sometimes.
Kim:The workload obviously is really heavy. So you're you're sometimes drowning in your sorrow, and then you just need somebody to to throw a meme at you and be like, you know, it's okay. Laugh a little. It's we're all gonna get through this. So, you know, sometimes and then sometimes people really do like we're really having, like, crises of various types, academic crises, personal crises.
Kim:Like, I think everybody knew when to turn it on and when to turn it off in in terms of, you know, the tone that the conversation took. If somebody was having an issue, then we got serious quick. We did a lot of code switching, I guess, could say, depending on the circumstances.
Rob:There are so many things, so many questions here, and I don't think one episode is enough, to be honest. And I'm sure Kim is going to dig into a whole lot of things. But I'm I'm curious, as you all kind of abstract this whole thing and you think about it as a educator and as you think about it, you know, as a as a professional now, how do you see this being able to be nurtured, if if I can say it that way, for others? Because I can't I don't think that happens for everybody. Right?
Rob:Yeah. And and I think maybe that's what Kim's gonna get to maybe in her research and stuff. It's, you know, what kicks these things off? What's the mix that you have to have? What's the kind of vulnerability that you have to have?
Rob:Because there has to be some vulnerability there. You have you guys are basically building relationships out of thin air. I mean, you're not in a location with each other. I'm just fascinated by this. Fascinated by what you've experienced, and I'm I'm curious if there are any other, you know, insights.
Kim:One thing I did notice is that it did take us a little while to kinda get real with each other. And that was prompted maybe by the struggle of certain classes that were, like, especially difficult or, like, we've we were having a hard time. So that kind of forced the bond, I think, quicker. But, like, before, it took somebody to kind of put themselves out there, and then everyone else sort of followed suit. And I don't know how, you know, how that happens because it's it's tricky to get it started.
Kim:Because you're in this cohort with other people, you still kind of want people to think, you know, you're intelligent and, you know, you're working hard, all the things that you want your professors to think too. And then how do you get into that mode where you're comfortable enough with each other to be like, what the heck is going on here? This assignment is crazy, or this professor is making no sense, or whatever is going on that's really not working for you.
Ariel:So it is it is
Kim:tricky to get going because I feel like we were sort of very polite initially, and then there was a situation. And then after that situation, it was like everybody was just completely putting themselves out there and honest. And and it then it was, you know, great from that point forward. But it it took a struggle to get us to that point where we're to the point where we joked that the professor in question was actually trying to bond us by being difficult, which wasn't true, but we joked that that was the case.
Jared:It was a social experiment. Alright, so let's do one more question and we can do round robin, have everyone answer. Because we do this podcast is meant for instructors. So let me ask this question and we'll do it this way. What role do you think or how aware do you feel instructors, should be of backchannel communication, and what role do you think they play in these back channel informal discussions?
Jared:And we'll start with Daniel.
Daniel:So I think instructors should have more of a hands off approach, but when the semester's starting and the students are talking about the syllabus and other things like that, they should let them know that a back channel would be a good thing that they might want to look into, but not push it too much and make sure that they're they're not I guess, they're not telling the students like, hey. I'm the instructor. I'm gonna be in the back channel. But y'all can have a back channel on your own. You can discuss whatever you wanna discuss there, and I'm not going to get involved in that.
Daniel:And that way, maybe that can build some trust early on between the instructor and the students that they have this sort of hallway that they can go discuss things throughout the semester. And that may help it to kind of organically develop until they do have what we talked about, a situation or a difficulty or something that kind of builds the trust within that group of students in that back channel.
Rob:Jamie?
Jamie:So I would say and Danielle said organic. I think if it doesn't happen organically and it's forced, it wouldn't be what it was. But I think there's a level of vulnerability that a instructor has to have that to know that there's conversations happening about them probably that they probably don't wanna know about, but that's okay because we all need a space to vent, and connect so we can be stronger together. So I would say, yes. Encourage it.
Jamie:I would say that programs you know, we had our seminars and the people that ran, like, the program, them talking about these kind of spaces and encouraging their cohorts to create something would be something I would encourage.
Jared:So real quick, I have a follow-up to that, Jamie. If you can answer this in a couple sentences. You mentioned cohort, which makes you think of grad students. Do you think an undergrad this would work well in an undergrad environment?
Kim:Yes. Absolutely.
Jared:Okay. Succinct.
Rob:Not even two sentences.
Jared:That was like that was one. Yes. That was like a dissertation defense kind of a thing there.
Rob:Exclamation mark.
Jared:Let's let Ariel go next so Kim can continue to rest her voice.
Ariel:Yeah. So I I I guess I would echo what Daniel and Jamie both said, but maybe come at it from a little bit different perspective is, you know, again, kind of coming from that perspective of working with rural communities predominantly is that a lot of the populations that I work with and that I've studied kind of have to, by necessity, do a lot of remote learning. So typically, these teachers and and students to some extent don't really have an option in in many cases but to do online learning. And so a lot of teachers are doing professional development online because the closest university might be an hour plus drive away. And so I guess I would encourage instructors to consider starting their own back channels.
Ariel:I think that's the best way to get experience with that, and then also to see what your students might be doing. So especially if you're in that position of having to do something remotely, it may or may not be heavily used. I mean, we certainly had people in our cohorts that never set foot in the Discord, and we had people that were really heavy users. But I think that just the experience of it is valuable in and of itself.
Rob:At least, Kim?
Jared:Anything to add, Kim Woodruff?
Kim:Yeah. I mean, I just think even planting the seed for it to happen, most of the most of the back channels that exist, the nature of them is that they exist apart from the instructor. But I think the instructor's role, especially for programs when you have students that are gonna be together for a couple of years, because that really allows the time to build to say at the beginning, and it can come from an adviser or somebody to just say, hey. You know, try to connect. Find a way to connect.
Kim:Even if you provide just just a little seed for that to happen or encourage it to happen even in a subtle way. I think it'll it will happen. And then whoever wants to participate in it will, and, you know, some people won't. But just providing that idea because when I first signed on for the program and got started, I thought there was a possibility that I wouldn't have any relationship with anybody. That was like my thinking when I started.
Kim:I'm like, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna be in these classes. I'm gonna do my work, and it's gonna be kind of a solo mission. So I was pleasantly surprised when we ended up becoming close and and having a relationship that has persisted. So I don't think people always realize the potential.
Kim:And maybe if you just plant that seed, then then that is enough to get the ball rolling to have the students get things started. And like we mentioned, trust and just the idea of people connecting. I think especially in graduate programs, like, it's difficult enough and it's hard enough that there will be struggles, and students will have an opportunity to bond over them. You know, no no program is perfect. No class is perfect.
Kim:There's always gonna be plenty of struggles. So if you need struggle to build trust and build relationships, the likelihood is it will be there.
Jared:Good word.
Rob:I think it's a good place to start.
Jared:Thanks so much for Daniel, Jamie, Kim, and Ariel for joining us to have this conversation about back channel communication. And that's gonna do it for us on this episode of the Transform Your Teaching podcast. Make sure you follow and subscribe to us on LinkedIn and your favorite podcast platform.
Jared:Check out our blog at cedarville.edu/focusblog, and thanks for listening.