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Regenerative by Design Podcast where we get to the root of health, climate, economics and food. Host, Joni Kindwall-Moore, is an RN, an Ethnobotanist and the founder of Snacktivist Foods. Join us on this journey as we explore the ideas, stories and personalities behind the regenerative food system movement including climate change, human health, economics and food as well as other deeply interconnected topics.
In this podcast, we will be “going there” and leaning into topics that might make you squirm… just a little. We want to challenge ourselves to think outside of the box and to discover the deeper side of our world’s problems so that we can better understand how to solve them.
We aim to unpack some of the most dynamic issues of our day with some of the most inspiring minds who are pushing the boundaries of our current norms and thinking paradigms.
We have seen incredibly disruptive events in the past few years like pandemics, climate events, disasters and war. These often trigger system changes that are reactionary and have short term gains. When these are practiced over the long term, they often have a degenerative effect on health and the environment.
Regenerative design thinking is the opposite, and is an intentional, premeditated process that involves a high level of observation, analysis, creativity, and looking beyond reductionistic principles while embracing systems thinking and additionality to create regenerative solutions.
Regenerative agriculture has become a powerful force for positive transformation and hope in todays world. And no discussion about agriculture is complete without a conversation about food.
Food is the connection between people and the planet so grab a cup of coffee or your favorite running shoes and get ready to take a mental and philosophical leap into the future of food and our planet.
Joanna, hello, everyone. You are
listening to the regenerative by
design podcast where we will be
getting to the root of health,
climate, economics and food. I
am your host. Joni quinwell
Moore, join me on this journey
as we explore the stories of
individuals and organizations
who are working to realign our
food system with both human
health and the health of our
planet. Welcome to the
regenerative by design podcast.
We're doing a Saturday recording
here in Drury, Coeur d'Alene,
Idaho, today, and I've got my
friend Keith mortar joining me.
Welcome Keith. Thank you. Glad
to be here. Yeah, I'm happy to
have you. We've been trying to
do this for like, couple years,
I think,
yeah, it's been at least a
couple years. Yeah, I wouldn't
do it at first, and I finally
said, Okay, I'll do it. So yeah,
yeah, it's gonna change for me.
I know. Well, you've got a great
story, and I think more people
need to hear it. And for our
listeners out there today, you
know, there that are familiar
with our content on regenerative
by design, we're always trying
to unpack these concepts around
the design thinking that is
needed to create a regenerative
world. And when you look at
agriculture and you know, field
management, there's always this
constant conversation we're up
against with folks. And when I'm
talking about regenerative out
in the market world, and they
say, well, there's no way we can
feed the world with this
regenerative ad thing. That's
impossible. We're going to lose
all our yields. And, you know,
it's this utopian thing. But,
you know, I've Keith, I've been
to your farm, and I I've seen
what you and Austin do, and I
want you guys to tell your story
and but first, let's just get
started and let us know a little
bit about your farm. Where do
you farm? What makes it
different. It's a desert out
there and and that's another
really important part of the
story. So take it away for a
minute and let let our listeners
know a little bit about
you. Yeah. So we farm north
central, eastern Oregon, about
an hour south and maybe a little
bit west, or Hermiston, Oregon.
We farm about 4000 acres of
tillable land. Total land owned
is about 4500 acres. We raise a
few cows. We are primarily a
wheat farm. For the most part.
We do raise sorghum, some
sorghum, some sunflowers. We
used to raise barley, but the
price of barley has been so bad,
we just can't afford to take the
loss on the on the income. My
parents bought the farm back in
1961 raised I got two older
brothers, an older sister and
two younger sisters, and four of
six of us are in agriculture in
one way or another. My parents
are pretty fortunate. We we all
got college educations of some
kind or another. They kind of
stressed education to us kids,
is was a good thing. Yeah, we so
went to college, like most
people do, came back to the
farm, and I guess the summer of
91 after I graduated college
from Keith, where'd you go? Just
a community college. That's
awesome. Community College,
educated group. I'm just gonna
stop for a quick second and say,
like, I talked to a lot of
farmers and you guys are one
educated lot. It's incredible.
Yeah, by
trade, I'm a mechanic. That's
and I really like to do that.
Unfortunately, my body is broke
down and and doesn't allow me to
do that as much as I used to.
But I got a young son that has
kind of taken that over, but so
came back to the farm, got into
the farm, and think as a partner
with my dad and one of my older
brothers about the same time we
were partnered up until about
2006 and then families and
everything that's involved with
families kind of split up the
farm, and they went their way,
and I went my way. Where I
currently farm is what we call
our home ranch. We had another
farm that was a little ways
away. My other brother gotten
the separation, and then so we
were farming conventional. My
dad farmed what we call
conventional agriculture, where
they go out and they actually
chisel plow the land. Back in
the day, they chisel plot twice,
and Rod weed it, put their
fertilizer on at some point
during the year, and then then
they would seed it. That was the
program, and that's what they
were told to do. That's what the
universities were promoting back
when he started farming.
Um. Also, what insurance and all
the other structures,
there wasn't any insurance back
then, was the thing. I mean,
you're talking to 1960s 70s and
80s. There was no insurance.
Yeah, insurance didn't come
around until, for us, anyhow, it
didn't come around till the
2000s basically, I think you
could get some insurance, but it
was cost prohibitive. Basically,
I mean, you know, what you get
in return was, was not that much
for the cost of the insurance.
So most people didn't take,
we didn't realize it was that
recent, yeah, within
the last 25 years, wow, that
wide scale crop insurance was
available, as in disaster. Crop
insurance is what we call it not
hail. And hail insurance has
always been around. Fire
Insurance has always been
around, but not drought
insurance, basically, is what,
what we're insuring against,
really, yeah, so, so in 2009 I
made the switch constant, that
the switch to direct seeding.
And I thought, well, direct
seeding will solve a lot of the
issues that we were we were
running into and
direct seeding for direct
seeding, yeah. So in our area,
we only get about six to 10
inches of rainfall annually. It
really, really, really varies.
We're in one of the lowest
rainfall areas of wheat
production in the world that's
cost effective to farm. It just
a little ways north of me in
Washington state, is, is what
they call the horse heavens. And
that was declared the driest
place in the world that we just
is raised. You know, 20 years
ago or something, anyhow. So we,
we started to get into direct
seed, which is direct seed is as
you put the seed without any
cultivation, right into the
soil, with all your fertilizer
and all the plant needs right
there at planning. And typically
we're a fall planted weed area
in this area of the state,
and it's going right into the
stubble, right like into
the stubble now we have to, we,
we summer fall that ground using
chemical chemicals to summer
fall that gland. We, we don't
plow it under like we used to.
It gets rid of that tension on
the surface of the soil that
allows that makes the water want
to run off of a conventionally
fallowed field in the
summertime. And so we did that
for a couple years, and then I
got really into variable rate
seed grabber, rate fertilizer
got really into for about 10
years, got really into grid
sampling, which is where you
take your field on a on a
computer, you break it up into
these, these sections that are
similar to one another, and you
go and you pull soil samples out
of those areas. You send it to
the lab, you look at it, you put
those values back into the map.
You look you take your yield
data, you lay your yield data
over that also. And then about
five years into that, I got a
grant to get a protein monitor,
so we start laying protein
quality of the grain over the
top of that. Yet we also did
East EC mapping, electro
conductivity mapping, and so we
laid that map over the top of
that yet and continue to build
these maps on top of one
another. And I think we probably
had five or six maps we were
using to try and help us gain on
our yield. And we you could see
where our better better. Our
better soils were at more poor
soils were at initially, and my
goal was, is that I our yields
will vary so much under under
our environment. I always think
about physics class when I was
in high school and learning
about sine waves from my physics
teacher, and our yields are like
a sine wave. They just go up and
down and up and down and up and
down. And some years they go way
high, and then a year later
they'll just drop like a rock
back down to, you know, say, 10
bushel acre you might have had
cut 71 year and 10 the following
year. That
is a crazy, crazy variation,
yeah,
and so, so it's, it's hard to
financially get stable in a
system like that, because got
good, good crops one year and
bad crops the next, you know. So
it's really it was really tough,
you know. So the whole goal was
trying to flatten that sine wave
out. We could still have
variation, but we were trying to
prevent that real bad drop. But
yet, maybe we weren't getting a
maximum amount of yield, but we
weren't getting the least amount
of yield a couple years or the
next year, either because we.
Were eliminating that. We were
trying to just limit our
fertilizer from damaging our
crops. Fertilizer is what was
really, is what really damages
the crop.
Fertilizer was actually damaging
your practice. Not
we know that, but it takes a
certain amount of fertilizer.
That's something most
people don't I mean, like, I
talk to you a lot in our
community, so I'm familiar with
this concept. But honestly, the
first time I heard that, I think
it was maybe 2018 2019, probably
at one of the conferences with
you guys. I it was a mic drop
moment for me. I was like, Wait,
did I just hear you? Right? I
think, I think it would be
really important for our
listeners to have you unpack
that a little bit more, because
a lot of people, this is where
the hang up is for people when
we think about this regenerative
by design process, I think that
the general sentiment out there
is, like, more is always better,
you know. And like, the more you
dump on the on to the field, the
more it's going to produce. And
you guys know, and you have
proof that that is not true.
Yeah. So in our area, we always,
we always try to just fertilize
for what we thought the crop was
going to be. So and my dad, my
brothers and I never had been
really big fertilizer consumers,
I guess, on our soil to start
with, and and so I don't know
how to exactly explain this
Johnny, but when you put an
extreme amount of fertilizer On
a field or on an acre, that
plant pulls all that fertilizer
up into the system, takes it'll,
it'll raise a really robust
green, dark green plant with
lots of on wheat. We call it
tillers. It'll look really
great, and everything and and
that's what that's what nitrogen
fertilizer does for a crop. It
just makes it look green, gives
it lots of foliage, but it
doesn't grow any roots. Is the
biggest problem with that whole
system. And when it does this,
and you have a lack of moisture,
and you got all this foliage,
something, something has you've
burned up your basically, your
soil calories, your moisture.
Moisture is is everything when
it comes to raising any crop, I
don't even in your garden. If
you don't have good moisture in
your garden, you don't get a
good crop out of your garden.
Yeah, it's a limiting reagent.
Always, it's a limiting it's a
limiting factor in our area,
there's no doubt about it. And
so you get a great big plant of
wheat out there, and then you
don't get any rain, say, in the
spring of the year, and you've
got lots of nitrogen on there's
two things happen. One, it
starts pruning the plant back to
what it thinks. It can actually,
actually produce seed for the
moisture that's left. And so you
it dries out, and then when it
gets closer to actually making
the seed, it will continue to
prune that down, and will even
prune in the head the number of
seeds that the that the head
will actually produce. And so,
wow, what we were trying to do
is pick a rate of seed and a
rate of fertilizer, with our
variable rate according and
based on our variable rate maps,
basically, and knowledge of the
soil. I mean, I'm 55 years old.
Been driving tractor since I was
12. How many times I've been
over that land I couldn't count
on. I have no idea how many
times I've been over that land,
how many times I cut it probably
four years. Yes, you know the
length, intuition
and just innate wisdom about it,
and then you're coupling it with
computer, yeah, which helps you
see things that maybe you just
couldn't see before, or maybe,
you know, there was some sort of
bias, or lack of being able to
pull those variables together.
Really cool. How sophisticated
farms are these days, yeah.
And so we did that for eight
years, I guess. And so I'm a
member of the Pacific Northwest
right Seed Association and I am
the president for this year next
year. I don't know if that's
good or not, but anyhow, I think
it was in 2020, let's see. It
was prior to pandemic, and my
brain's a little fuzzy on when
the pandemic was but, but it was
like two years before the
pandemic. We brought Joel
Williams down, and Joel Williams
was talking about fertilizers
and and a whole bunch of things.
And these, these soil health
guys get, get you to start to
think. And started thinking a
little bit about crop rotation.
Association couldn't, you know,
didn't know where to go with it.
Because there was nobody really
out there that I could really
ask in the area about, you know,
what they had did or what they
had seen there. There was one
guy that had played around with
some stuff, but, but not on a
serious scale of any, any size,
you know, and so not
on 4000 acres a lot,
correct? So we so went to the
conference the following year,
and they brought in John Kemp
and, and for those of you who
don't know who John keaf is,
he's, he's a soil health guy out
of Ohio. He's an Amish guy. So
I'm sitting in the audience, and
he brings up on the screen, you
know, basically it's in Genesis
where, you know, it says that,
you know, man is put on the
earth to take care of the Earth
and all its beings. And, boy,
that kind of hit, hit home with
me a little bit, you know, kind
of a religious person myself.
And I sat there and shook my
head that he'd have guts to do
that. And, yeah, but I was,
I was at that conference, I
remember that. Yeah, he,
before he put that up, he says,
No, I know that there's a lot of
farmers out there, and a lot of
you are good Christians and and
if you're not a Christian, this
isn't meant to upset you, but it
just wants you to make make you
aware of this or something, but
something to that being. And
John can probably tell you the
exact wording you used, knowing
John probably used it before,
probably used it before, which,
I think it's a good way to start
off his conversation with you,
where he comes from. So we
listened to his day, that whole
day, and it was all about crop
rotation and what you're
actually doing to the soil, and
what's your why you're doing it,
and cover crops, what they do.
And we just proceeded down this
my wife and I were flying out to
see our daughter and son in law
in Omaha the day after the
conference got over, and we were
staying at the hotel, and John
just happened to be flying out
the next day too, and we sat in
the restaurant and had like, a
two hour conversation, best two
hours time I could have ever
spent with somebody, yeah, any.
And he started to convince me
more and more that I needed to
be trying something, and that
that that did it for me. That's
that's when I said, Okay, I'm
gonna go home and do this. So
our, our fall wheat crop. I kind
of like I said, this is all pre
pandemic. So that fall wheat
crop had been planted
conventionally, with all
conventional fertilizers and
everything. But I had really
under fertilized it because we
didn't know what the spring was
going to be. That that's kind of
I was always in this I'm going
to do two passes of fertilizer
on a on our conventional system,
before we went regenerative,
we're going to do two passes of
fertilizer, one in the fall,
wait and see what spring
brought, and then put on what we
thought the spring was going to
be after that. Well, we did
that. We put on what we thought
would get us through the spring,
and then the spring, we totally
changed our whole mode system to
a regenerative system in the
spring, which I don't really
recommend doing if somebody is
going to go down this
regenerative you want to make
that change when that crop is
planted, and I learned that.
I've learned that over the last
couple of years. That makes
sense. It does make a huge
difference. And so we've
basically been trying to raise
our crop regeneratively ever
since, and John got me
interested in raising all these
crops that I would have never
thought, like I said, sunflowers
and sorghum and and I've thought
about other things, like fava
beans and some of that kind of
stuff, but I can only take so
much risk and market there's
just no market development or
value added processing for
diversity out here,
so that, yeah, I was gonna get
to that a little bit. So the
first couple years, we raised
sunflowers and sorghum. We had a
pretty good market for it. We
could, we could put it into it.
And so unfortunately, two years
ago, we raised some sorghum and
some sunflowers, and we're still
sitting on it. It's a bad deal
sitting on, you know, 30,
$40,000 of this crop we can't
move it. Is what it is. I think
we might have the sunflower sold
here, which that'd be great. If
we do the sorghum, I wanted to
haul it far enough, I can
probably get rid of it. Yeah, it
that the trucking is just that's
our biggest issue. Yeah, it
kills. It is exactly right. Mm,
hmm. So two years, three years
ago, we started using the
California what do they call it?
California Commission, wheat
labs down in California, the
Claudia Carter, yeah,
and she was on season one for
people who are listening
Claudia, we had a really awesome
session couple years back. So,
yeah,
I've never met her. John Kemp
gave me her contact information,
and I called her up, and we
started talking. So I decided to
send her down some some samples.
And she calls me back and says,
What are you doing to your to
your wheat? And I said, Well,
what do you mean? What am I
doing on my wheat? And she goes,
Well, some of this is the
highest stuff we've ever seen
tested in this lab for baking
quality. And so I, when I
started getting hold of Joni
here, and said, Hey, I got this.
And Johnny's been marketing
around and and it's just really
tough. And when you have, you
know, mortgages to meet and
everything, sometimes you got to
sell a product you really don't
want to sell into the open
market. And I always wondered,
you know, like most of the wheat
in the Pacific Northwest gets,
gets shipped out to the the
Pacific Rim countries of of
Asia. A lot of wheat goes into
Japan and South Korea and the
Philippine Islands and Malaysia
and and and those countries over
in there. And I always have
wondered, you know, you haul in,
you know, 30,000 bushel of of
wheat that is off the charts for
baking, and they start milling
it, and it screws up their whole
mix that they're doing, because
all of a sudden your baking
quality is way higher than what
they are anticipating. Yeah,
yeah. And you always, I guess,
I've always kind of wondered
what they what they think when
that comes through there. It's
like, you know, it's as time has
gone by and we've, we've
continued to do this over the
last three years, we have found
some mills that are interested
in what we're what we're doing
with our wheat and and it's big,
it'll be good for us if we can
continue to do, do the flour
mill thing within the states
here. But markets. I can't
stress this enough to raise some
of these other crops that that I
would like to raise. I have to
have the market.
We had to have coordination
between market development and
development of programs at the
field level, so that we're
driving diversity in the field.
But that's not going to work if
we're not driving diversity on
the market side. And that's
what's so frustrating about this
whole regenerative thing, is any
and all of the investment that's
gone into the regenerative
movement all goes to the farm or
like certain parts, but nobody
wants to invest in developing
market side. I mean, I've
learned that the hard way. And,
you know, there's just no no no
reward for it. And so that's
what puts a stalemate in the
entire system. And one of the
only people out there really
trying to work on it can't get
investment money, so you end up
working for free, you know, like
you're just a philanthropy
person without anybody, yeah?
Like nobody, you know. I mean, I
spent the better of four years
trying to raise money to really
do this, and couldn't get
anybody interested. Yeah. I
mean, we raised a tiny bit of
money, but not enough to
actually really get, get what we
needed to get done, done. You
know, it's just frustrating.
Didn't raise a dime this year,
not one penny. So it's, it's
just, you know, no matter how
much we go to these, you know,
investors and whatnot, we're
like, look, you know, we've even
starting to get interested
parties, but you can't. If you
don't have any support
financially. You don't have any
staff. You don't, you know,
like, can't really get the thing
done. So we've got to have the
world wake up and go, Okay, if
we're going to make this
regenerative thing work, we have
got to figure out how to bridge
the gap between the market and
the in the fields, and that
involves value added, processing
and orchestration of supply
demand within the system so that
it's creating a holistic model
that supports regeneration. We
absolutely do not have that
today. It doesn't exist. Well,
here in another month, if I can
raise money, we will have it.
But we just need, if we need
investors, to actually lean in
and get this done. Yeah.
And you know, what really
irritates me is everybody thinks
it's really easy to be a
regenerative grower, you know?
And when we spend a lot of time,
there's a lot to it. We spend a
lot of time on testing, we spend
a lot of time sitting our butts
in the sprayer, because instead
of putting all your nutrients in
your soil, which we don't do
anymore, and we basically fully
are applying in the nutrients.
It, it, it's just a tough
business, you know,
to keep I mean, I like knowing
you, all of you regenerative
folks in the Inland Northwest,
like you guys invest an
incredible amount of time in
learning and conferences and
podcasts and books, and I mean,
you guys are very voracious
learners, and I feel like you
guys also really paid attention
to the nuances of your plants,
SAP testing, like a whole nother
level of soil testing, and
that's that is time and money
that is invested into your farm.
Yeah. I mean, I'll spend all
week at this direct Seed
Conference. And anyway, in
January, it says 6/7, and eighth
and and, you know, I'll come
away with some new idea that
we'll want to try, you know, but
our our agronomists that we
really rely upon, has has really
helped a lot, because, yeah,
it's applying it, it's
understanding exactly what
you're doing. And then you can't
just find the ingredients that
we need by going down to the
local fertilizer shop, because
they're not going to help you
find these ingredients. These
ingredients. It takes a special
it takes a special person or
special nice facility to do what
we need to a has a line of
products. There's a couple of
different lines of products out
there that are really good
products, but there's an expense
with with these products too,
and they're really they can be
really expensive. Yeah,
the banks don't always want to
cover it either from what it's
it's not like in the normal
prescription, you know.
And so that's starting to change
somewhat at the banking level,
at the national level, at the
national banking level, they're
starting to starting to get an
understanding that maybe, you
know, some of the same exactly
healthy for the environment and
the people. And they've got
people on both sides of the of
the street, the health conscious
people, and then the farmers
that they're also loaning money
too, and they've got
stockholders and everything
else. So there the banks, some
of the banks and national banks
are starting to change.
We're trying to get more data to
show that the investments in
these regenerative amendments
and management interventions are
actually de risking the farms,
you know, overall loan for the
year, because there's a lot more
resiliency. There's a lot more
drought resiliency. There's a
lot more stability with, you
know, making sure that you're
going to get a crop against all
odds. And so, you know, as we
start to develop more robustness
around those kind of, basically,
data frameworks that can support
the hypothesis. I think that's
where we're going to see a lot
of change in policy around
banking and insurance. That's
like, hey, actually these
regenerative methodologies,
there's an upfront cost, but
boy, it's in the long run, it's
de risking the investment
overall, like you're going to
have more success the
whole point in regenerative
agriculture really is, is to get
your biology and your microbials
and your fungi to actually work
for you. You know, everybody
talks about storing carbon, you
know, and the farmland is some
of the biggest sink for for
carbon there is. But the problem
is, mainstream agriculture,
every time there, there's some
kind of a plant ailment out
there, it's all about spraying
that problem instead of asking,
you know, why is that there? Why
is that weed there? Why is that
there? Well, the reason that
that disease is there is because
you have an unhealthy soil that
allowed that disease to creep in
on that plant. And the same goes
the same goes for weed in our
area, probably the biggest four
weeds we have to deal with are
Russian tussle kosher. We call
it marestail, and then prickly
lettuce, or China let us
Whichever name you prefer for
for that one, but and they're
all there for a specific reason.
And when we went to regenerative
agriculture, not that we don't
have Russian Tesla anymore, but
it is pretty low on the totem
pole from where it used to be
when we started into the direct
seed thing. Now, our mayor's
tail and our prickly lettuce are
probably some of our biggest
ones. And if you really deep, do
a deep dive into the soil, the
reason that they're there is
because through chemicals that
we've applied to the soil, and
the way that certain chemicals
react in the soil, they've tied
those micronutrients up in the
soil. And if you take a plant
SAP analysis on prickly lettuce,
throughout the year of its
growth, it contains very high
levels of micronutrients in the
plant. So it is mining the
micronutrients out of the plant
or out of the soil, which are
tied up due to the chemistries
that we have applied over the
last 70 years of chemistries
being used on the soil. Very
important point, Keith and so if
you think about weeds as weeds,
and you think they're bad, and
you just go spray them with
Roundup. I'll just use Roundup,
because that's the one everybody
knows. If you go out and just
spread with Roundup, and you
think that's going to kill it,
well, certain weeds now are
resistant to Roundup. And you
ask, Well, why are they
resistant to Roundup? Well,
they've developed an internal
clock. They've changed
genetically to be able to ward
off the micronutrient in the
plant that they are actually
that that chemical actually
targeted in order to kill that
plant. And so these
micronutrients, least on wheat,
we are finding micronutrients
are the number one problem with
the wheat crop we're raised, and
I don't care what micronutrient
is, not that we still don't
apply nitrogen, but we're
applying about third or less of
the amount of nitrogen we used
to apply. It's it's one of the
lower input costs we have to
deal with today. But on our farm
anyhow, our biggest
micronutrients that we're having
to put on are zinc, copper,
molybdenum, nickel. Those are
some of the biggest ones we have
to apply just about every time
we're applying fine.
Your area naturally low in those
or is it more tied up to, you
know, tied to the fact that
they're chelated with chemicals
that are there from previous
to do with their chelated with
the chemicals in the soil and
and so we have found, by putting
that on there and not putting on
so much nitrogen, that we're not
having to spray for things like
rust. Well, how do you get rid
of us? Do you spray a fungicide
on and get rid of rust? And, you
know, I went to a seminar here
the other day, and they're
talking about spring fungi on
and, and the guy that was
talking about it says, you know,
there's some people out here
that are saying, you know, you
want to be careful of this,
because you're doing a lot of
damage to your soils. And he
says, there's a valid point in
this. You are doing damage to
your soil. You know, fungi are
where the carbon stored at. And
so if you're looking at a carbon
contract and you're saying,
well, they're, they're going to
pay me $50 an acre for this
carbon to be stored in the land,
you know? And you're in a
conventional system, you might
be like some foreign farmer in
Iowa that took a big contract
from General Motors, and then
all of a sudden he can't meet
his carbon contract. Now he owes
General Motors money. Yeah,
exactly. And so just you want to
be cautious of that type of the
system until you know how you're
able to store the carbon,
yeah, and you've got that
microbial ratio, you know, only
towards a regenerative balance,
correct? And our goal is to to
actually get to the point where
maybe we're only having to apply
one or two micronutrients a
year, and they may not ever be
the same one from year to year,
but for some reason, we're not
able to extract it out of the
soil. You know, we we had
Christine Jones at a seminar
down in Colton, Washington this
year. Yeah, mind boggling
lecture, I have to say that was
the biggest thing. She said is
quit putting phosphate down and
put putting fungicide on your
seat, and you will get your
fungi. You'll get your phosphate
out of your soil. If you quit
putting it down and you and you
quit putting fungi on, fungicide
on your seed, yeah. And
everybody goes, well, how do you
get away without putting
fungicide down? Well, we're
using a worm castings extract,
and we apply the worm castings
extract with a couple other
things on the seed, and that
protects the seed. And you.
Within 24 hours, in general, in
our area, we can get our seed
sprouted, and within 48 hours we
got the end of sperm coming out,
the radical coming out, and the
roots are going down within
within 48 hours of germination.
And that's pretty beautiful soil
aggregation around those roots.
You've sent me pictures a few
days after they're planted, and
it's like there's so much
exudate that's protecting that
delicate little root.
And that delicate little root
journey is what, well that,
yeah, that's what they're
delicate. That's what the fungi
attached to, is that delicate
little root, you know, and I'm
not an expert in that. I mean,
there's a lot of people that are
can better explain what actually
takes place than what I can
explain happens. But to me, it's
all about the root. I think it
was, I don't know if it was John
Kemp with sand, or Rick Clark or
who, or somebody else that I've
listened to over the years.
Basically, you whatever you have
above the ground, you want one
or three quarters of that below
ground. So if you have six
inches of plant on top, you want
18 inches of root below that
well, and they say you can
actually get more roots in that
if, if you do everything
perfect. And so that's our goal
is, is to get more root down on
the plant. It's all about the
roots that you can get the in my
area, I can raise a good wheat
crop if I can get that plant to
root down, yeah, yeah,
which is like, the opposite of
what we you know, the goals were
30 years ago where people were
actually kind of like, oh,
that's just a waste of
metabolism effort, you know,
developing all these big, deep
roots and, you know, we don't
want the plants secreting all
their sugar into the
rhizosphere, because then
they're wasting energy that they
could be putting into yield.
And, you know, now we, we're
looking at it so differently.
So, you know what, really, what
really irritates me is, is, you
got 10s of 1000s acres of solar
panels out there, you know, and
you're gonna, you're gonna save
all this carbon going in the
environment, you know, from not
burning fossil fuels anymore,
but yet they go out there and
they sterilize under those solar
panels and kill everything out
from underneath those solar
panels. Yeah. So if a fire comes
through, they're not burning up
their solar farm, and they're
capturing the sunlight, just
like my wheat plants do. The
cat, that wheat Croc, is a big
solar panel, is what it is,
yeah. And so, you know, it's
pulling, it's pulling in the
sunlight, making chlorophyll.
The chlorophyll is pulling in
the carbon, and the plants are
exuding the carbon out the roots
into the soil, defeating all
the, all the little animals that
are in the soil, and then the
plant exudates oxygen, and yet
they want to put in all these
1000s acres solar panels on all
those good, good producing
farmland. And people need to be
worried about that who consume
food and rely upon farmers to to
to produce it solar
panels going on good, viable
farmland, because, like you
said, they're just nuking it
underneath with toxic chemicals.
I mean, voltaics, like that. I
get like that can be great,
especially for crops that need a
little shade, you know, like, or
you're doing some grazing
underneath, yeah, but to just go
out there and nuke it chemical
warfare style, then put a bunch
of solar panels on top, just to
me, seems completely asinine. It
just doesn't make sense
to me. It is roofs
and asphalt parking lots that
could have them on there. You
know, exactly,
exactly every, every house and
you know, in these cities, these
needs to be, have solar panels.
Yeah, manufacturing
malls like you, think about all
the parking lots cool, put solar
panels on top of there. That's a
win win for so many reasons. But
going out to viable farmland and
making it unusable is crazy.
Give you
a context about how much power,
how many acres it takes to make
one megawatt of power. It takes
six acres. I this is what I
heard a while back, and I'll
probably be told I was wrong on
this, which that's fine, but it
takes six acres of solar panels
to make one megawatt of power.
So we're where we live, to the
north of us and a little bit
east. They're putting in 40,000
acres of solar panels. Wow. And
they're paying the growers
enough money that the growers
say that they cannot. Farm that
land and make that much money
farming the land. So when people
talk about the high price of
food, if agricultural land keeps
getting shoved into industrial
electrical stuff, just so people
in town can turn in their lives
and feel good about, you know,
being being green all the time.
Well, they can do the same thing
if they want regenerative and
store that carbon, yeah, in the
soil, using nature, yeah, even
the nature you know,
you know, it's you need to bring
it back to a nature based
system, and that would correct a
lot of the problems. But so many
of these, you know, so called
solutions, are so reductionistic
and still so completely side of
nature based systems and nature
based solutions that God only
knows what other externalities
will come from that, because
it's not thinking holistically.
Yeah,
yeah. And, you know, the other
thing is, on a, on a bad solar
day, on a, you know, bad
sunlight day, they're not making
one megawatt on six acres. You
know, it's only on a good, good,
clear day that they'll make that
kind of production. It's kind of
like, when I on our farm, I'd
rather have wind towers, and the
ugliness of a wind tower versus
that, at least I still can use
the soil for something. Yeah,
you still
have good, usable land that can
be productive, growing food and
sequestering carbon, and, you
know, creating systems, you
know, like, that's the thing is,
once you kill all that land and
you make it a desert, rain
falls. It just, it doesn't
absorb. It just floods off of
it, and it causes erosion and
like, there's just so many
externalities associated with it
that people don't think about
that worry people like us. And I
mean, you're one of the guys. I
have a quote of you that I I
have somewhere. I don't think
it's on the website, but
it's a great quote, and it
says to send it to you, but it
says, and I have a recording of
you saying this. You're like,
well, you know, I realized one
day, do I want to be a slave to
the soil, or do I want to be a
slave to the chemical companies?
And I just decided I want to be
a slave to the soil. I always
thought that was such a great
quote.
Well, I still believe that
today, I'd rather be a slave to
the soil than the slave to the
chemical company. Yeah. So yeah.
I mean, just back to this power
thing for a second. Yeah. It
takes one acre of land, if you
include all the road and
everything for a wind tower to
get two and a half megawatts of
power to, I think they're up to
two and three quarter megawatts.
That's more than and so, so
that's 12 acres of land that
that you would have that's over,
that's almost 3014, about 15
acres of land that you'd have to
take out of production and put
solar panels on to get the same
amount of production, power
production. Yeah, and I totally
agree with why aren't these
cities got solar panels on every
building? Why isn't there a tax
incentive for these homeowners
solar panels on everyone? Yeah?
But, but. And in some areas,
like down California, it's
required, when you build a new
house, to be putting these solar
panels on. I have a real problem
with making things that are
mandated. You know, I guess I'm
too conservative when it comes
to that, make it in a tax
incentive on their property
taxes. Yeah, incentivize it
through a tax reduction that
means something to them, not
just on their income taxes, but
have it on their property taxes
or something. Yeah, that will
get people's attention quicker.
That'll get people's attention
quicker than anything.
Yeah, I think so too. I don't
know if you've ever been to this
air Nevada brewery, but they
have, like, the solar panels
over their parking lot, if I
remember correctly. And it was
so cool, because it was like, it
it made it to where I think
their brewery, in the summer
months, anyways, was Net Zero.
Like, it didn't need to pull any
power, pulled it right off the
parking lot. It wasn't really
cool. I think
that all these big parking lots,
you go around, all these big
manufacturing facilities, and
they got acres and acres and
acres of parking lots, you know,
yeah, you're like, you know,
that's just dead soil underneath
there. How about we use the
sunlight, you know? Yeah,
heating and all of the stuff. So
yeah,
provide state for people's
vehicles and everything else. I
mean, I just sit as a good win,
win. Yeah, it is getting some
traction. People are starting to
realize maybe the saying is wise
is what we want stock. And
people ask, Well, why? Why
aren't we placing solar panels
on. In on unused land. Well, it
comes down to the Endangered
Species Act.
Now, there are some areas that
would be perfect candidates for
that, but there's regulatory
things that prevent it. So,
yeah, I know this is really
sticky for sure, yeah, and it's
the cost of building power lines
into some of those places too.
You know, where there's 40,000
acres of solar panels is going
in. I mean, they've already got
high voltage power lines coming
up there for windmill
production. They're hooking onto
those high voltage power lines,
and you're just going, Okay,
well, I can understand it, but I
think it's totally ridiculous,
well, and this is the whole
design thinking process, like,
you know, and that's why we call
this show regenerative by
design. It's like, how do we
really think through the design
theory of all of these things so
that we're truly considering the
true cost, you know, all these
externalities. Like, does it
make sense? Is this resilient?
Is this realigning our systems
with positive human health
outcomes and climate resiliency,
you know? Like, literally, the
resiliency picture, like, Does
this make sense on a long time
horizon, and so many of the
things that we do don't, they've
clearly not been thought out
through a long time horizon, and
it's frustrating. So,
yeah, so that kind of, you know,
you were talking about human
health there, you know, this
human health thing is really,
you know, yeah, it's a big deal
people, the cancer rates and at
least the United States, or
through the roof the diabetes
rates, or through the roof.
That's, you know, I'm in no way
an environmentalist, but it
worries the hell out of me,
because I'm looking at, I got
grandkids, you know, I've got a
niece is a diabetic. You know,
I've got several cousins that
are diabetics. I know a family
that they have two young kids,
when they were, like, two years
old or three years old, found
out that they were each each of
these kids were diabetics, both
in the same family,
auto immune response to things,
and all of those things are
skyrocketing, type one, Type
Two, chronic inflammatory
disease, cancer rates, and we're
really reacting to a very toxic
environment, and it's time we
did something about it.
Yeah, and so I look at what I
try, what I'm trying to do by
raising a much healthier product
for consumers, whatever the
processors do with it. I mean,
if I ever had the opportunity to
talk direct to a flower company,
I'd say, Look, I'm raising a
superior product. How about we
try to market this as a superior
product? You know, here's the
you got, you got somebody that
wants to mill this. You're the
you're the name brand. How
about, instead of milling down
my product to meet your spec by
dumping a bunch of garbage into
it, you actually just mill my
product straight through and
call it a platinum flower or
something like that. Value that
it is, yeah, yeah, exactly you
know, because Claudia wouldn't
call me up and say, you know,
hey, what are you doing
different that this week's off
the charts, you know? And and
Andrew Ross Oregon State
University, who does a lot of
testing for new varieties in the
Northwest on their milling
qualities. I showed him the the
printout that Claudia gave me,
and he goes, he grabs, after I
showed it to him, we talked a
while. He grabs by the arm, and
he says, you know, that's very
unusual. What you have, that's
when, when, when, when you get
another person that that's what
they do, is they test all the
flowers, yeah, for, for, for
basically all the Northwest.
That's telling me I must be
headed down the right road,
yeah, well,
the question I sent your specs
off to a Miller. He goes, where
did you get this? This is really
remarkable, yeah, and 18 months
to get there. But, you know,
early on, I was hitting the COO
and the and the CEO, you know,
to try to be like guys like
that, you know, I know it's a
ways away from your current
mill, but you need to be paying
attention to this. And then
yesterday, I talked to a flower
brand that is going to be buying
through that whole chain. And I
was like, Look, we've really got
to differentiate this and and
help you guys get there so you
can make that commitment on the
branded side. Because on the
branded side and on the market
side, these are the things that
a lot of folks on the supply
chain side don't understand
fully. Is that you can't release
a product if you can't scale it.
Really do. I mean, like, they're
like, so it's, it's this
delicate balance of bringing to.
Gather the supply and demand and
making sure that it's scalable,
because the unit economics don't
actually work to create a
product with a very limited
amount of it. If you're going to
go into retail distribution, the
only way you can do that is a
one off thing online or Amazon,
where you can toggle switch it
on and off based on
availability, which can drive
premium because then it's
limited edition. But we have a
massive disconnect with the
consumer channels. So if you're
trying to go into national
distribution and you're like,
This is a special we it's really
high quality, we think people
are going to love it. Well, the
retailer is going to say, Well,
what's going to happen when you
run out? Because we're not going
to let you just run out and have
an empty shelf slot without
charging you, because realtor
real The reality is, is that
grocery is a real estate game.
It's not a quality game. And so
these are the pieces of the
puzzle that have to be brought
together to solve this issue.
And you know, we're working on
all of that, and we're getting
closer all the time, but, you
know, it was a real wake up
call, you know, in marketing
your wheat to bakeries that they
were like, well, this is a
finite amount, you know, like,
like, it just the reality is so
much more difficult. I was
shocked because, boy, I spent a
lot of time circulating that.
And, you know, I never, never
was able to get anything to the
finish line. So it's, you know,
it just was a bigger lesson to
me of what we're up against from
a systems level perspective. And
hence, that's why I'm shifting
my work to doing what I'm doing
now, to try to bring that
together and create some
digitization around it. But
it's, it's really a major hurdle
we're up against with the food
system, because we're never
going to have a healthy one if
we're still using this broken
rule book of how the markets
work and the disconnect between
quality supply chains and
quality food products, that's
why we have a garbage in,
garbage out system that's making
us sick, right?
I mean, think about this. You
know, you hit it. You hit
something that was very
important. It's economy of
scale, yeah, and I'll just give
you an example people, people
don't probably real, really
realize this. So where Nabisco
makes all their cookies that
plant here in the Northwest
produces 15,000 cookies an hour.
So you figure out how much,
figure out how much raw product
has to move into that plant
every day to make 15,000 cookies
an hour is unreal, yeah. And you
just sit down. If there's 45
cookies in a bag, just sit down
and figure out how many bags a
day are leaving there? How many
truckloads of cookies are
leaving that facility in a day?
And so, you know, I don't have
the marketing ability to go out
here and put in a million
dollars worth of infrastructure
to clean that flop, to clean
that wheat, to to buy a mill, to
buy a mill, stone mill, grind
it, bag it, and then sit on
Yeah, that much product, no, and
then hope to market it through a
365, day a year. No, you
can't. It doesn't even make
sense. It's like, that's why we
have to have aggregated
infrastructure that still can
maintain provenance and quality.
You know, there's, there's,
there's some really new ways
emerging where we can get this
done without having to put the
pressure on farmers to be
vertically integrated, because
that does not economically work
very well. It's really tough to
pull off. Some can do it, but
most it's it's really a huge
heavy lift. But speaking of
Nabisco and these big CPG
companies, they have lost a lot
of market share because people
are starting to lose their taste
for super hyper processed
garbage. And whether it's
because of the injectable weight
loss drugs like the GLP ones, or
if it's just a shift post COVID
and a younger generation coming
in saying we don't want to eat
that garbage, like Keebler
doesn't do it for us, like
they're going to have to make a
change. And that's where I'm
focused, is like, how can we
approach these larger companies
and go you guys have a problem.
A, consumers want a better
quality product, but they still
want it to be affordable, so we
need to do it at scale. B, you
guys have a terrible climate
footprint, your externalities
and your impact of greenhouse
gas emissions is insane. Because
you're while we're shipping our
wheat to Asia, that plant here
in the Northwest is buying all
their wheat from Kansas,
probably. So think about all the
unnecessary trucking that's due
to just a lack of coordination
and planning. And so if we
really focus on those two market
pressures that they're going to
have to respond to to keep in
the positive on their P and L,
because that's going to tank
them eventually. You know,
they're going to have to make
that switch. And so that's where
right now, like, we're like,
okay, how can we be an asset to
them? How can we can come in
with our teams and say, Hey,
we've got this incredible
network of farmers that have
been doing it for a long time.
They're at scale. So they're,
they're they have proven that
the methodology is there to
produce higher quality food with
lower chemical footprint and a
better environmental soil
footprint. You just need to buy
it, and we need to coordinate it
to get through the value chain
using good positive unit
economics, like you know what we
know for efficiencies, but we're
going to maintain that focus on
effectiveness. We're going to
balance efficiencies and
effectiveness at the same time,
and that way, we can empower the
people like Nabisco, who have
distribution all over the
freaking world to actually
deliver a product that's not
killing Americans. That's the
problem. Yeah, it's
the scale tech. I don't want to
be a farmer that claims to be a
farmer and I sit in my office
all day, every day. I'm not that
kind of person. Drives me crazy.
I can't stand to sit in and at
the end of the year, let alone
365, days a year. And I'm more
concerned about soil and having
something to pass on to the next
generation right now, and and,
and as long as I have a
generation that's wanting to,
that's coming up, wanting to
take it over, which I'm lucky I
have my son, and all of my
brothers and sisters have family
members that want to take it
over, take their operations
over. You know, that's a rare,
rare thing anymore. You know,
kids get waves on a farm, and
they think there's easier fish
to fry than sitting on a tractor
14 hours a day for two or three
weeks. Or community, too, very
rural community, you know. But
to me, I like that kind of an
area. Yeah, I go to Portland,
and it just drives me nuts,
yeah, it does, you know.
Unfortunately, Spokane does too,
you know. And it's not nearly as
big as Portland is, you know,
it, you know, I guess I'm trying
to provide a good product for
for for the mother out there
that that wants to feed their
their kids, a whole grain
product, that is that they know
was not sprayed with Roundup in
the crop here, that knows that I
Did my absolute best to
eliminate, at least on the crop,
any kind of of chemical products
going on that crop, to raise
that crop, sort of minerals that
the body needs, and, and, and,
you know, the body needs a
certain amount of iron, it needs
a certain amount of calcium, it
needs a certain amount and needs
all these micronutrients that
currently our flowers are kind
of missing, and I really think
that that's why our baking
quality is through the roof. Is
we're providing that plant
everything it needs, and so in
turn, it bakes at a higher
quality. Yeah, and I think the
mill we're hauling going to
start hauling weed into here in
about a month. I'm really hoping
that when he gets the second
mill built, that that that his
people that he's selling to
takes a good look at what we're
doing, and everybody wants a
certification. Everybody wants
you to certify certification. I
think certifications have went
over the top. You know, organics
came out. You know, they kept
weakening the organic criteria
over time, and now organics
really aren't the organics that
we started out with. You know,
the restrictions on organics
aren't the same as they used to
be and become
so industrialized, yeah, yeah.
And
I would rather somebody buy a
bag of flour and have the QR
code on that thing that says
where that flower was bought at,
and you could go to the next
page and actually see what was
all put on that bag of flour at
the farmer level, so that you
know what you're buying. Yep, I
would like segregation to get to
that point to where, to where
the consumer knows exactly what
they're they're buying. And if
the commercial guys don't want
to do that, then allow the
little the little producers of
of the little mills to do it and
fill that market, because
there's going to be a certain
amount of mothers out there and
dads too. Quite often, if
mother's very health conscious,
the father is too, if they want
to spend the extra $3 a bag on a
five pound bag of flour, because
they can put their phone up to
read that QRS code, go to the
next page. See that Keith mortar
raised that weed. Here's
everything he sprayed on that
crop. This is how that crop was
raised. Click on a little video.
Oil that shows this is how our
crop was raised and be off with
it. Yeah. In my area, we still
have to use some some chemicals
to make summer fall, but from
what we're being told, the more
the soil changes, things changed
where we might not be having to
use chemicals in the future to
maybe control some of our weeds.
Yeah,
and I think that's where the
market could also help. Because
if you know, if you have more
market paths for diverse crops,
and you know, can actually have
summer planting, and you don't
have to have that summer fallow
anymore, because you can plant
something like pros and millet,
suddenly, suddenly, you don't
need you've just eliminated a
lot of the chemical and follow
time. So,
you know, the other thing,
Johnny, most people don't
realize is, when you mill a
wheat product and you put it in
a bag, it is oxidized within two
days where it's lost. All of us
are the quality has went down on
it. Yeah, and that's a bad deal.
And the other thing people don't
understand is you can go to the
USDA agriculture department, and
if you know where to go, you can
actually print off a wheat flour
label, right off their website
that's accepted by USDA whether
that bag of flour even meets
that criterion. And I hope, I
hope that Robert Kennedy throws
a bunch of that stuff out. I
hope that's not allowed anymore.
Yeah, I hope that they actually
have to spend the money on the
testing and change their label
instead of you go from bag to
bag in the store and it's all
the same damn stuff,
prohibitively expensive for
companies trying to do it,
especially startups like at that
requirement, we would have not
been able to even start snack
devices because we
didn't. I agree with that. But
how are you going to get society
to change Exactly?
Well, that's why we need we need
to have more access to cost
effective testing. I mean, when
we got started, if we were doing
testing on our ingredients. It
would have cost us just to do a
run, you know, like 1000 pound
run. It would have cost us 1000s
of dollars in testing. So now
your price per pound is like,
you know, sky high,
yeah. So because it's plant SAP
analysis that we use on the
crop, there's two labs in the
world that I trust. And then
there's a third one I wouldn't
trust at all. And I mean, one of
them's in the other ones, and
ones in Michigan and and, you
know, the costs aren't bad. To
have a test for what you're
getting out of the out of the
test. We
need good testing to come down
in price. I mean, it's luckily,
like it's radically changing,
like in the last year, but, you
know, it hasn't historically
been something that even the big
companies could justify, like it
was very expensive. You
know, what really gets me is
that the these big food
companies got labs themselves.
So I kind of,
they don't want people to know,
because they're not selling
something great, but little
companies like us who are like,
we're buying, you know, we, you
know, like on our batches of
sorghum that we've purchased
and, you know, we're already,
we're barely able to get within
a price point that's even close
to acceptable by the public. You
know, you throw on another
$1,000 of testing per lot and
whoa, that you're done. You
know, there's just not enough
people who care. But I think
that's changing too
historically, there's not been
enough people who cared.
I think in the next five years,
least the next four years, we're
going to see some serious
changes come out of USDA on
food, food processing, food,
food requirements, you know,
and reporting on exposure to
toxins like desiccants and
stuff. And you know, what's
frustrating is, last year, I
spent 18 months building the
technology needed to deliver a
fully QR code connected
experience. And unfortunately,
that isn't available now due to
some unfortunate circumstances
that were outside of my control.
But you know, we're, we're,
we're putting that back
together. So by the end of next
year, we should be able to offer
that full digitized transparency
to a QR code and the story and
yeah, so if you're the praying
type, say a prayer that we can
finally get the money behind us.
Money behind us. We need to get
this done, and we we can have
all this. It could be a reality.
We have all the technology
needed. We have all the design
frameworks in place. We just
need the money to build it and
get it done. It could totally
and then when you can partner
with labs that are doing this
kind of testing, and then you
have an aggregate like, so that
you can have better,
approachable pricing, you know,
because you're like, hey, look,
you know, we've got these 500
food companies that all want
this kind of testing, you know,
can we bundle this and we're
going to report it via QR code
so that it's live reporting.
Then you can start to move the
needle. You just can't do it on
a bootstrap budget. It like, you
know, oh, hi, we're gonna, you
know, like, save up a couple of
bucks for, like, weekend work
and get this done. It just
doesn't work that
way, right, correct? No, I
really understand that. So it's
so
frustrating, because we could
have all this stuff, like, we've
already built it, and it's just
right at the tip of our fingers,
you know. So, you
know, it comes back. It comes
back to the market. You know,
does the market? Is the market
willing to change, you know, um,
to where I think there's some
people coming into USDA that
through federal programs of
farmers, yet that could change
how we look at agriculture
altogether here in the next four
or five years, what farmers are
required, I
think we're gonna see the
biggest change in our lifetime,
about the same age as you Are,
Keith and you know, couple years
younger, but you know, like in
our lifetime, I mean, we've seen
the kind of development of
policy and culture around food
and food quality through the
70s, 80s, 90s, and I think that
we're going to see more change
in the next five years than
we've seen in the last 50 and in
a Good direction of like, going
back to the basics, and that
reprioritization of like, what
is the point of calories? And
what is the point of, you know,
feeding the world, if what we're
feeding the world is killing us,
causing an epidemic of cancer
and diet related disease that's
costing trillions of dollars and
impacting our GDP and our
quality of life, like we've
we've got, we've lost sight of
that, especially when it's
trashing our farmlands to boot.
So it's happening. I mean, I
this is why I wanted to have you
on the show, Keith, because you
and I, you're a good friend of
mine, and we, we, we spent a lot
of time solving this stuff over
the phone, so I'm glad we
finally got to unpack on the on
this podcast, and we are going
to wrap it up. We might have to
do another second session at
some point.
One thing to say here, mothers
out there to think about this a
little bit. They've got kids in
school. So when the when the
Obama administration came into
power back in 2008 one of the
things that they changed with
the lunch school program, and he
was supposed to be healthier and
all this kind of stuff. And,
and, you know, I didn't think
too much of it. I guess I'm too
much of a Republican for that
matter, and, and so I didn't
really think too much about it.
And my kids came home and they
were saying, Oh, the cook's
homemade ranch dressing is they
won't let her make it anymore at
the school, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, you get they have to
buy this ranch dressing that
tastes like crap. You know,
that's terrifying. And so, you
know, when I was in school, the
cooks made all the soups, the
cooks made all the bread. The
cooks were cooks. They weren't
just food warmers. Now, all they
are is a Food Warmer. And and my
daughter come now, my because of
economic conditions, her and her
husband live with us right now
temporarily, and my daughter's
all the time making homemade
bread and and all this kind of
stuff. Homemade cinnamon rolls.
I remember his kid, we'd get
cinnamon rolls the school that
the cook would make. I mean,
great stuff. You know, all of it
was probably better for you than
all this processed food that the
kids are getting in the school
system today.
So just even though the
preservatives alone, you know.
So
I think if parents want a
healthier program, they need to
be going to their their schools,
demanding that the launch
program, where you reworked at
the federal level, they need to
be going to their senators and
representatives and said at the
federal level, and saying your
senators and representatives go
to them when they have a meeting
and say, I want the school lunch
program reworked, because that
is not the food that I ate. You
know, they talk about diabetes
and all this stuff and kids,
well, they ever think it could
be coming partially from the
school for what they're having
to put down those kids, provide
those kids? My
kids won't eat the school I live
in Idaho, and we're a very
conservative state, and our
lunch programs, here are some of
the worst in the nation. Um,
there's no scratch, I mean, very
little scratch cooking that
happens. It's just heat and
serve. And it's getting worse by
the year. Like back before 2020
there was a lot more fresh prep,
prep cooking happening. And it's
like gotten worse and worse. So,
and it's a state, it's a blend
of state and federal oversight,
I've really taken a deep dive
into school lunch programs in
the last few years. And it's
it's interesting because, like,
California passed an initiative
where they're pumping a bunch of
money into reinstating actual
fresh commissary. And so all the
people who are doing food, you
know, work like. Like me and
sactis are really focused on
California markets right now
because they're actually willing
to pay for higher quality food
for school lunch programs, but
states like Idaho still won't
touch it. So it's there's a lot
of state regulation there too
that we need to really get
focused on. Because if I were in
charge, not only would it be
fresh, basic, scratch cooked
food, but we'd have kids in
there learning to cook and
serving their their fellow
students, and learning to be
part of the food system, not
just showing up and getting a
tray and walking away with it,
but actually being through the
process from, you know, in the
school garden to doing bread
making days for the third
graders, like they could totally
do that, and they would be so
proud of it. And there's what
they could do that doesn't
involve a sharp knife or a hot
burner. There's so much cool
hands on stuff that they could
do. And it's just a shame that
we've lost the nation
bring back. I totally, I totally
agree with that. Yeah, parents,
parents need to be aware of what
their kids are eating at school.
It's not all healthy for them.
Oh no. It's total garbage. My
kids won't eat it. Sometimes
they take pictures of it and
text it to me, and they're like,
you're not going to believe this
mom on that note, but Keith, I
do have to wrap it up. And
speaking of the kids, they are
wanting to come down the stairs
pretty soon, and they know that
mom will be very upset with them
if they come down the stairs
while I'm recording a podcast.
So since my studio is in the
living room, which is always
kind of a funny deal, but for
those of you who are listening,
I'm really glad you joined us.
This is probably the longest
podcast we've ever recorded on
the regenerative by design
podcast show, but this is
fantastic. This again, yeah,
I've been wanting to have Keith
on here for years. So Thanks
Keith for joining me, and I knew
we'd have a lot to unpack,
because you're a really great
thought leader in our region
when it comes to this model and
really making those impacts to
food at the field level and at
the soil level. So thanks for
all you do, and we're if people
want to reach out to you and
harass you, or say they want to
reach out and ask you a question
or whatever. How can they reach
you? Where's the best place
contact you? Contact me, and
I'll
hook them up. Yeah, okay. Well,
if I have your permission, and
somebody's like, hey, how do I
get in touch with Keith mortar,
I will make sure they've got
your information. Yeah, yes.
Well, cool. And, you know,
I don't have a natural farmers.
Yeah, you guys are pretty
low profile, you know, for folks
who are on the Inland Northwest
too, if they want to learn more
about this, you know, Keith is
the president of the Pacific
Northwest direct Seed
Association. And you guys have
really great conferences that
I'm not a farmer, and I've gone
to it before and gotten a lot of
really cool information just
about how agriculture works and
why what you guys are doing is
different than just regular,
conventional systems. And so you
guys have a great conference in
January. So for people who are
interested, um, we'll put a link
to the Pacific Northwest York
Seed Association website so
people can follow. I just
want to explain that a little
bit Johnny before we get off the
air here. Yeah, that conference
in the winter time is kind of
split between regenerative guys
and conventional guys, so there
is a little bit of both sides.
So if you do come, you know,
look at the schedule, see what
you want to attend for a
meeting. And then we have
another conference coming up in
June that's strictly about soil
health, yeah. So, so we do have
two conferences a year that we
do put on. Thank you
for clarifying that they're both
great. Um, the summer one is
fantastic. Um, I was really
lucky to attend.
For those people who have never
tried Johnny's brownies from
snack to this, they're the kids
will love them, and they're
healthy, yeah,
sugar, so I wouldn't call them
healthy, but you know, at least
it's good quality grains, and,
you know, we don't add any
garbage and all, it's all
regenerative, organic sugar. So
you are getting some sugar, but
it's really high quality. So
thanks for the plug there, Keith
and um, thank
you again. We take them to our
church. So that's the first
thing that's gone. Oh, nice.
You've got, you've got the
congregation trained. I love it.
Yeah, exactly. Well, so much
fun. Thanks again, and we'll for
those listeners out there, if
you love this podcast, please
take a minute to share, rate it
on Apple podcasting, and just
make sure you're talking about
the future that we could have.
So on that note, have a great
day, and thanks for joining
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